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  1. May 2025
    1. 青蛙Pepe”的极右翼符号化

      好的,我们来解释一下青蛙 Pepe (Pepe the Frog) 如何被极右翼符号化(或称污名化/劫持)。这是一个复杂的网络文化现象,涉及模因(meme)的传播、网络社群的亚文化以及政治意识形态的利用。

      要理解这一点,需要从 Pepe 的起源说起:

      1. 无辜的起源:

        • 青蛙 Pepe 最早是美国漫画家 Matt Furie 在其漫画系列《男孩俱乐部》(Boy's Club) 中创造的一个角色。
        • 在漫画中,Pepe 是一只友善、有点懒散的青蛙,他的形象通常用来表达一些简单、常见的情绪,比如著名的“Feels good man”(感觉不错)和“Feels bad man”(感觉很糟)表情。
        • 在这个阶段,Pepe 是一个完全无政治、无冒犯性的卡通角色。
      2. 在网络上成为流行的模因:

        • Pepe 的形象和表情非常生动且易于传播,很快在 Tumblr、4chan、MySpace 等早期社交媒体和论坛上流行起来。
        • 用户开始创作各种 Pepe 的变体,用他来表达各种各样的情绪和情境,成为一个广泛使用的网络模因。这个阶段的 Pepe 依然是中性的,主要用于网络交流和幽默。
      3. 被网络亚文化群体(尤其是 4chan)采纳和异化:

        • 4chan 等匿名论坛聚集了大量用户,其中一部分用户具有反主流、恶搞甚至带有恶意和冒犯性的倾向。
        • 在这些社群中,Pepe 的形象开始被用来搭配越来越边缘化、具有攻击性、厌世或冒犯性的文本和图像。这最初可能是一种“反梗”(anti-meme)或故意制造混乱、突破底线式的幽默尝试。
      4. 被极右翼和“另类右翼”(Alt-Right)群体“劫持”和政治化:

        • 在上述亚文化异化的基础上,尤其是在2015-2016年美国总统大选期间,一些与“另类右翼”相关的网络群体(如在 4chan、8chan 等平台活跃的用户)开始有意识地将 Pepe 的形象与极右翼、白人民族主义、种族主义、反犹主义以及其他仇恨言论和符号结合
        • 他们创作了大量带有纳粹标志、三K党头套、反犹漫画(将 Pepe 描绘成带有刻板印象的犹太人形象)、白人至上主义标语等元素的 Pepe 变体。
        • 为什么选择 Pepe?
          • Pepe 当时已经非常流行,利用其知名度可以更容易地传播极端信息。
          • 他的形象非常灵活和可塑,可以被任意改造以适应各种攻击性主题。
          • 对于一些用户来说,将一个原本无辜的卡通角色与仇恨符号结合,本身就是一种挑衅和“巨魔”(trolling)行为,旨在激怒主流社会和自由派人士。这种“让人生气”的效果正是他们所追求的。
          • 在匿名环境下,这种使用方式更容易扩散。
      5. 污名化和被正式认定为仇恨符号:

        • 随着这些带有仇恨信息的 Pepe 变体在网络上(包括 Twitter 等更主流平台)的传播,它们引起了公众和媒体的关注。
        • 2016年,美国反诽谤联盟(Anti-Defamation League, ADL)正式将带有仇恨色彩的 Pepe 变体列入其仇恨符号数据库,尽管 ADL 也指出 Pepe 本身并非所有用法都代表仇恨,但其形象已被仇恨群体广泛采纳和利用。

      总结:

      青蛙 Pepe 的极右翼符号化是一个自下而上的、网络社群内部发生的、带有故意和恶意性质的“劫持”过程。它从一个无辜的卡通形象,通过网络模因的传播和亚文化的异化,最终被与极右翼和仇恨意识形态相关的群体有意识地、大规模地结合,用来传播其观点和进行挑衅。虽然 Pepe 最初和自身并不代表仇恨,但这种负面的关联已经非常强烈和普遍,使得在许多语境下使用 Pepe 都可能带有争议性或被误解为支持相关意识形态。漫画原作者 Matt Furie 对此表示反对,并曾试图通过各种方式“夺回” Pepe 的原始意义。

    1. 中国瓷器上的“柳树图案”传入欧洲后,被赋予虚构的爱情叙事,脱离原初的文人画意

      好的,我们来详细解释一下中国瓷器上的“柳树图案”传入欧洲后发生的文化现象:被赋予虚构的爱情叙事,脱离原初的文人画意境。

      这句话描述了一个典型的跨文化传播和意义重塑过程。

      1. 中国瓷器上的“柳树图案”在中国的原初意境(文人画意境):

      • 图案元素: 中国瓷器上常见的以柳树为主的风景纹饰,通常包含柳树、小桥、流水、凉亭、小舟、远山、飞鸟等元素。
      • 文人画渊源: 这些元素大量出现在中国的山水画和文人画中。文人画不追求写实,更注重写意、抒情、表达意境
      • 象征意义与意境:
        • 柳树 (柳): 在中国文化中,柳树常用来象征离别、思念、挽留(柳和“留”谐音),也代表春天的生机和柔美。
        • 小桥流水人家: 寄托的是隐逸、宁静、田园生活的理想,是文人向往的超脱尘世的隐居之所。
        • 凉亭、小舟: 是文人赏景、雅集、独处、或归隐远游的载体。
        • 飞鸟: 可以象征自由、高远,或是传递信息的使者,但在意境中更多是点缀生机和开阔感。
      • 非叙事性: 在中国传统的文人画或以此为灵感的瓷器纹饰中,这些元素组合在一起,主要是为了营造一种宁静、悠远、诗意化的山水意境,引发观者对自然、人生、离别或归隐的联想和情感共鸣。它通常没有固定的、线性的、戏剧性的故事或叙事。观者可以根据自己的心境去感受和体会画面的氛围。这种美学更侧重于情景交融、虚实相生、以形写神,而非情节的讲述。

      2. “柳树图案”传入欧洲:

      • 从17世纪开始,大量中国瓷器通过贸易进入欧洲,引起了巨大的轰动和喜爱,形成了“中国风”(Chinoiserie)的时尚。
      • 欧洲本土的瓷器制造商为了满足市场需求,开始模仿、学习甚至批量生产带有中国风格纹饰的瓷器。柳树图案就是其中最受欢迎和被广泛模仿的一种。

      3. 在欧洲被赋予虚构的爱情叙事:

      • 欧洲文化有很强的叙事传统,特别是对浪漫爱情故事的偏爱在民间传说和文学中非常普遍。
      • 当欧洲人看到这种充满东方情调、包含人物、小桥、小舟等元素的图案时,他们倾向于用自己的文化思维去“解读”或“脑补”一个故事来串联这些元素。
      • 最著名的就是那个虚构的“柳树图案故事”(Willow Pattern Story):讲述一个富有的中国官僚的女儿(Koong-se)爱上了父亲的穷账房先生(Chang),两人私奔,遭到父亲追赶,通过小桥,乘小舟逃到远方岛上,最终被找到并杀害,化作两只比翼双飞的鸟(或鸽子)。
      • 这个故事并不是中国原本就有的,而是欧洲人在模仿和传播这个图案时编造出来的。它为图案提供了一个简单、易懂、具有戏剧性和情感吸引力的解释。

      4. 脱离原初的文人画意境:

      • 一旦图案被绑定上这个固定的爱情故事,人们在观看瓷器时,注意力就从感受宁静的风景、体会诗意的联想,转移到了追踪故事情节、识别故事中的人物和场景
      • 柳树不再仅仅是离别的象征或风景的点缀,而是恋人私奔时经过的地点;小桥不再仅仅是意境的一部分,而是故事中逃亡的关键通道;小舟不再是隐逸的意象,而是载着恋人逃离的工具;飞鸟变成了故事结局中恋人化身的符号。
      • 图案中的元素不再是营造“意境”的组成部分,而成了叙事性的“道具”和“角色”
      • 这种转变使得图案的审美重心发生了变化。从追求含蓄、留白、引人联想的写意美学,变成了追求情节生动、易于理解的叙事美学。原初那种空灵、超脱、富有诗意的文人画意境,在欧洲的诠释中被一个更符合其文化习惯的、带有传奇色彩的爱情故事所取代和覆盖。

      总结:

      中国瓷器上的“柳树图案”在传入欧洲后,经历了一个显著的文化转译和意义重塑过程。欧洲人基于自身的审美习惯和文化叙事传统,对这个来自异域的图案进行了创造性的“误读”或“再创作”,为其赋予了一个原本没有的爱情故事。这个故事的广泛传播,使得图案的关注点从中国文人所追求的含蓄、诗意的风景意境,彻底转向了一个明确、戏剧化的叙事。这生动地说明了在跨文化交流中,文化符号的意义并非固定不变,而是在接收方的文化语境中被重新理解、诠释和改造的动态过程。

    1. Note de Synthèse : Analyse du Rapport sur Parcoursup et Mon Master (Extrait)

      Date : 2025

      Objet : Examen des plateformes d'accès à l'enseignement supérieur (Parcoursup et Mon Master), focus sur les algorithmes, les bacheliers STMG et la région Nouvelle-Aquitaine.

      Source : Extraits du rapport "rapport parcoursup 2025-297809.pdf" du Comité éthique et scientifique de Parcoursup et Mon Master (CESPM).

      Introduction :

      Ce rapport, le 7ème du CESPM, offre un éclairage approfondi sur les mécanismes et les enjeux des plateformes d'accès à l'enseignement supérieur Parcoursup et Mon Master.

      Il s'appuie sur des analyses générales, des entretiens avec les acteurs de terrain et une étude de cas spécifique portant sur les bacheliers de la filière Sciences et technologies du management et de la gestion (STMG) et la région Nouvelle-Aquitaine.

      L'objectif est de garantir la transparence, l'équité et l'efficacité de ces processus d'admission.

      Thèmes Principaux et Idées Clés :

      Rôle et Fonctionnement des Algorithmes dans Parcoursup et Mon Master (Section 1.1, 1.2, 1.4):

      Clarification fondamentale : Le rapport insiste sur le fait que ce ne sont pas les plateformes ou leurs algorithmes qui prennent les décisions d'admission, mais bien les responsables et enseignants des formations réunis en commissions d'examen.

      Algorithme d'Appariement : L'algorithme gère la mise en relation entre les vœux des candidats et les classements des formations. Il ne classe pas les candidats lui-même mais utilise les classements fournis par les formations. Son code est publié pour assurer la transparence.

      Différences entre Parcoursup et Mon Master : Parcoursup applique des quotas (boursiers, géographiques pour les licences) qui peuvent modifier les classements initiaux des formations, dans un souci de réduction des inégalités sociales. Mon Master n'applique aucun quota. "Algorithmes Locaux" (Classement par les Formations) :

      Le rapport dénonce l'appellation impropre "algorithmes locaux". Les formations utilisent des outils (souvent des tableurs) basés sur des critères définis par les équipes pédagogiques pour pré-classer les candidatures, facilitant le travail de délibération des commissions. Transparence des Critères de Classement : Le Comité recommande vivement la publication précise et quantifiable des critères de classement utilisés par les formations. Cette transparence est jugée essentielle pour l'équité.

      Inégalités d'Accès : Le rapport affirme que les algorithmes d'appariement n'amplifient pas les inégalités sociales ou géographiques.

      Au contraire, les quotas dans Parcoursup visent à les réduire.

      Les inégalités d'accès existent mais sont liées à d'autres facteurs.

      Sélection à l'Entrée de l'Enseignement Supérieur (Section 1.3, 1.6):

      Formations Sélectives : Ces formations ne classent pas toujours tous les candidats, refusant certains d'emblée selon leurs critères.

      Le rapport critique le "malthusianisme" de certaines formations attractives qui ne classent pas suffisamment de candidats pour remplir leurs capacités d'accueil, entraînant une perte de places.

      Recommandation : Pour lutter contre cette pratique, le rapport suggère d'exiger une publication très précise des critères de refus ou d'obliger les formations à classer tous les candidats. Une autre idée serait de réduire la capacité d'accueil des formations qui ne remplissent pas sur plusieurs années.

      Accompagnement des Étudiants : La loi ORE a prévu des dispositifs "oui si" pour les licences non sélectives, mais rien n'est prévu pour les formations sélectives, même si certaines d'entre elles mettent en place un accompagnement.

      Utilisation des Données Publiques (Section 1.5): Richesse des Données : Les données publiques issues des plateformes sont une ressource précieuse pour analyser la réalité de l'accès à l'enseignement supérieur.

      Manque de Documentation : Le rapport souligne un manque de documentation précise pour de nombreux indicateurs (comme le "taux de poursuite"), rendant difficile l'interprétation et l'utilisation de ces données pour le pilotage.

      Recommandation : Améliorer la documentation des données publiques pour permettre des analyses robustes et éclairer les politiques publiques. Focus sur les Bacheliers STMG (Chapitre 2): Filière Hétérogène et Parfois Subie : La filière STMG accueille des élèves d'origines sociales plus défavorisées que les autres filières technologiques et générales. L'orientation en STMG est souvent plus importante que les demandes des familles et peut servir de "voie de délestage".

      Méconnaissance de la Filière : Le rapport pointe une méconnaissance des enseignements et des débouchés de la filière STMG par les professeurs et les parents, ce qui peut impacter négativement l'orientation.

      Difficultés d'Accès à l'Enseignement Supérieur : Les bacheliers STMG rencontrent des difficultés pour entrer dans l'enseignement supérieur, caractérisées par une "volatilité" importante, un sur cinq quittant Parcoursup après avoir reçu une proposition.

      Réussite en Études Supérieures : La réussite des bacheliers STMG en licence est faible. Elle est meilleure en formations courtes professionnalisées (BTS, BUT), mais reste inférieure à celle des autres bacheliers technologiques et généraux.

      Recommandations :Créer des parcours de licence adaptés aux bacheliers technologiques (notamment STMG). Mettre en place ou développer des parcours de consolidation et des dispositifs d'accompagnement en BUT et L1 pour favoriser la "persévérance" et éviter les décrochages précoces. Accès à l'Enseignement Supérieur en Nouvelle-Aquitaine (Chapitre 3):

      Impact de l'Éloignement Géographique : L'étude de la Nouvelle-Aquitaine, région étendue et rurale, montre l'impact significatif de l'éloignement des pôles d'enseignement supérieur sur les vœux et les admissions des candidats. Les candidats éloignés sont moins souvent admis dans les formations sélectives des grands pôles et plus souvent dans des formations courtes professionnalisantes plus proches.

      Contraintes de Transport et de Logement : Les contraintes financières liées au transport et au logement sont identifiées comme des facteurs majeurs d'inégalité. Le logement est particulièrement problématique dans les zones tendues de la côte atlantique.

      Critères d'Attribution des Logements Étudiants : Les critères actuels d'attribution des logements CROUS, trop axés sur les revenus, sont jugés inadaptés pour prendre correctement en compte la distance.

      Recommandations :Définir des critères spécifiques pour l'attribution des logements étudiants qui prennent mieux en compte les distances.

      Expérimenter l'attribution des logements étudiants par la procédure Parcoursup pour certains types de formations dans les régions rurales, à l'instar des internats de CPGE. Partager les internats dans les lycées qui offrent CPGE et BTS, et intégrer les demandes dans Parcoursup pour les BTS.

      Mon Master (Chapitre 4): * Plateforme Utile et Bien Acceptée : Mon Master est généralement bien perçue par les formations, facilitant le travail de classement des candidatures. Elle sert également d'observatoire pour l'adaptation de l'offre de formation. * Introduction de la Phase Complémentaire (PC) : L'ajout de la PC en 2024 est unanimement salué, permettant de mieux gérer les places vacantes et d'offrir de nouvelles opportunités aux candidats. * Sélection et Taux de Remplissage : L'entrée en master reste sélective. Des places vacantes persistent, avec des disparités selon les territoires et les mentions. Les candidats issus de BUT ou de licences professionnelles ont un taux d'admission plus faible que les titulaires de licence générale. * Saisine du Recteur : Le dispositif de saisine pour les titulaires d'une licence générale n'ayant reçu aucune proposition est détaillé. Le rapport recommande d'informer plus clairement les étudiants sur les restrictions de conditions pour cette saisine. * Périmètre de la Plateforme : Le rapport recommande de ne pas étendre la plateforme Mon Master aux formations ne conduisant pas à un Diplôme National de Master (DNM), mais d'y ajouter à titre informatif les masters qui ne recrutent qu'en formation continue. * Transparence et Équité : Le rapport réitère la nécessité de transparence sur les critères de sélection et la publication de rapports de jury, comme pour Parcoursup. * Alternance : Le recrutement en alternance via Mon Master présente des spécificités (calendrier, absence de classement des candidats). Le rapport suggère de permettre aux établissements de gérer la fongibilité des capacités d'accueil entre statut étudiant et apprentissage. * Nombre de Vœux : Le nombre élevé de vœux possibles sur Mon Master (15 par type de formation) alourdit le travail des commissions et peut inciter à des candidatures non mûries. * Sécurité et Protection des Données : Le code de l'algorithme de Mon Master est publié, ce qui est une avancée. Le rapport suggère de renforcer la sécurité des accès privilégiés par une authentification à double facteur et d'améliorer la remontée sécurisée des notes des candidats étudiant en France. * Partage d'Expérience entre Parcoursup et Mon Master : Le Comité recommande d'amplifier le partage d'expérience et de perspectives entre les deux plateformes et d'unifier la présentation de leurs algorithmes.

      Recommandations Clés du Rapport :

      Le rapport émet plusieurs recommandations concrètes pour améliorer les processus d'admission et l'accès à l'enseignement supérieur, notamment :

      • Améliorer la transparence des critères de classement et, pour les formations sélectives, les critères de refus (Recommandation 1).
      • Mieux documenter les données publiques pour permettre des analyses fines et éclairer les politiques publiques (Recommandation 2).
      • Créer des parcours de licence adaptés aux bacheliers technologiques (notamment STMG) et développer des dispositifs d'accompagnement en L1 et BUT pour favoriser la persévérance des STMG (Recommandations 4 et 5).
      • Définir des critères spécifiques pour l'attribution des logements étudiants prenant mieux en compte les distances et expérimenter l'attribution via Parcoursup (Recommandation 7).
      • Partager les internats dans les lycées offrant CPGE et BTS et intégrer les demandes dans Parcoursup pour les BTS (Recommandation 8).
      • Mieux informer les parents et les élèves sur Parcoursup, les filières d'études, les aides sociales et au logement (Recommandation 9).
      • Doter les établissements d'outils statistiques robustes et partagés pour suivre les parcours des jeunes (Recommandation 10).
      • Avertir clairement les étudiants des restrictions concernant la saisine du recteur sur Mon Master (Recommandation 14).
      • Ne pas ouvrir Mon Master aux formations ne conduisant pas à un DNM, mais ajouter les masters qui ne recrutent qu'en formation continue (Recommandation 15).
      • Permettre aux établissements de gérer la fongibilité entre les capacités d'accueil des formations en statut étudiant et en apprentissage sur Mon Master (Recommandation 20).
      • Amplifier le partage d'expérience et de perspectives entre Mon Master et Parcoursup et unifier la présentation des algorithmes (Recommandation 23).

      Conclusion du Comité :

      Le CESPM estime que ses travaux ont contribué à éclairer la décision publique pour l'amélioration de Parcoursup et espère faire de même pour Mon Master.

      Le rapport met en lumière le renoncement de nombreux lycéens, notamment STMG, à leurs aspirations en raison de l'éloignement géographique et d'une dévalorisation perçue de leur filière.

      L'amélioration de l'accès au logement étudiant, une meilleure information sur l'orientation et un suivi accru de la réussite des bacheliers STMG sont des pistes essentielles pour l'avenir.

      Le Comité prévoit de poursuivre son analyse de Mon Master l'année prochaine, avec un focus approfondi sur des disciplines spécifiques et la question de la saisine du recteur.

  2. rers.depp.education.fr rers.depp.education.fr
    1. Briefing Document : Analyse des données sur l'éducation et la formation

      Source : Extraits du document RERS.pdf

      Date : 24 mai 2024

      Résumé exécutif :

      Ce document présente un aperçu détaillé des tendances et des statistiques clés concernant l'apprentissage, l'enseignement supérieur et la réussite aux examens en France.

      Les données révèlent une augmentation significative du nombre d'apprentis à tous les niveaux, une croissance de la part des femmes dans l'enseignement supérieur, et des taux de réussite aux examens du baccalauréat et du CAP qui varient selon les filières, les âges et les statuts de formation.

      Une attention particulière est également portée à la situation de l'éducation dans les DROM.

      Thèmes principaux :

      • Évolution de l'apprentissage : Le document met en évidence une croissance marquée du nombre d'apprentis en France au cours des dernières années.
      • Effectifs dans l'enseignement supérieur : Des données sont fournies sur l'évolution du nombre d'inscriptions dans diverses filières universitaires et d'écoles spécialisées.
      • Réussite aux examens (Baccalauréat et CAP) : Les taux de réussite sont analysés selon différents critères (filière, sexe, âge, statut de formation).
      • Situation dans les DROM : Des statistiques spécifiques sont présentées pour les départements et régions d'outre-mer.
      • Genre dans l'éducation : La répartition des femmes est examinée dans différentes formations et lauréats.
      • Insertion professionnelle des apprentis : Des données sur le taux d'emploi salarié après l'apprentissage sont fournies.
      • Mobilité internationale des étudiants : La répartition des étudiants étrangers en France et des étudiants français à l'étranger est détaillée.
      • Aides financières : Des informations sur les bourses sur critères sociaux sont incluses.

      Idées et Faits Importants :

      • Croissance de l'apprentissage : Le nombre total d'apprentis est passé de 365 874 en 2000-2001 à 953 590 en 2022-2023. Cette croissance est particulièrement notable aux niveaux supérieurs (6, 7 et 8), qui ont vu leurs effectifs multipliés par plus de 23 sur la même période.
      • Citation : "Total apprentis 365 874 385 859 426 280 405 205 429 906 448 127 478 803 629 635 834 063 953 590"
      • Citation : "Total niveaux 6, 7 et 8 15 633 26 404 49 331 70 696 84 104 91 249 107 986 187 791 288 064 360 172" (évolution de 2000-2001 à 2022-2023).
      • Effectifs dans l'enseignement supérieur : Le nombre d'inscriptions dans l'enseignement supérieur a également augmenté, atteignant 1 604 169 en 2023 (hors inscriptions simultanées université-CPGE et avec les STS en apprentissage).
      • Citation : "Ensemble 1 429 738 1 552 245 1 568 854 1 584 821 1 614 883 1 635 350 1 649 978 1 656 914 1 597 691 1 604 169" (évolution des effectifs universitaires, périmètre historique, hors inscriptions simultanées université-CPGE de 2011 à 2023).
      • Réussite au baccalauréat : Le taux de réussite global au baccalauréat en 2023 était de 90,7 %. Les taux varient selon les filières : 95,5 % pour le bac général, 89,5 % pour le bac technologique et 82,6 % pour le bac professionnel.
      • Citation : "Ensemble 74,9 79,5 79,9 85,6 87,9 95,0 91,0 92,6 88,8 90,7" (évolution des taux de réussite au baccalauréat de 1995 à 2023).
      • Citation : "Ensemble 371 830 95,5 133 865 89,5 169 246 82,6 674 941 90,7" (Réussite au baccalauréat selon l’âge, session 2023 - colonne "Ensemble").
      • Réussite au CAP et baccalauréat professionnel selon le statut : Pour la session 2023, les apprentis présentent des taux de réussite légèrement supérieurs aux scolaires pour le CAP (86,9 % vs 84,6 %). Pour le baccalauréat professionnel, les apprentis ont un taux de réussite similaire aux scolaires (83,7 % vs 82,7 %).
      • Citation : "Formation sous statut scolaire Admis 44 802 [...] Taux de réussite 84,6" et "Formation sous statut apprenti Admis 78 013 [...] Taux de réussite 86,9" (pour le CAP).
      • Citation : "Scolaires Admis 142 076 [...] Taux de réussite 82,7" et "Apprentis Admis 24 452 [...] Taux de réussite 83,7" (pour le baccalauréat professionnel).
      • Répartition par genre : Les femmes représentent une part importante des étudiants dans l'enseignement supérieur (47,9 % en 2022-2023 pour l'ensemble de l'enseignement supérieur, incluant les apprentis en STS). Leur part est plus élevée dans certaines filières comme les filières universitaires générales et les écoles de commerce, mais plus faible dans les formations d'ingénieurs.
      • Citation : "Ensemble 20 050 ... 576 261 47,9" (Évolution des effectifs d’apprentis préparant un diplôme de l’enseignement supérieur, Part des filles 2022-2023 (%)).
      • Citation : "Part des femmes (%) 49,2 49,0 49,2 50,1 49,8 50,4 50,1 48,7 49,9 50,0" (pour les diplômes visés par le MESR délivrés par les écoles de commerce).
      • Citation : "Ensemble des formations d’ingénieurs 374 173 962 100,0 - 2,1 51 784 29,8 - 1,5" (Répartition des effectifs d’étudiants en formations d’ingénieurs en 2023-2024, dont étudiantes et Part des femmes en 2023).
      • Insertion professionnelle des apprentis : Le taux d'emploi salarié 6 mois après la sortie de formation en janvier 2023 varie selon le niveau de sortie et le secteur. Il est généralement plus élevé pour les niveaux supérieurs. Pour l'ensemble des niveaux, il est de 66 % pour la production et 68 % pour les services.
      • Citation : "Ensemble 66 68 70 65 65 66 71 63" (Taux d’emploi salarié des apprentis à 6 mois en janvier 2023 selon le secteur de formation, le sexe et le niveau de sortie, en %).
      • Situation dans les DROM : Les taux de réussite aux examens du baccalauréat et du CAP sont généralement inférieurs dans les DROM par rapport à la France métropolitaine, avec des variations notables entre les différents DROM.
      • Citation : "Total baccalauréat 5 541 89,1 3 108 77,3 3 938 90,3 4 540 71,7 10 726 89,7 27 853 84,7" (pour le baccalauréat dans les DROM, session 2023, Taux de réussite (%)). Le taux global DROM (84,7%) est inférieur au taux national (90,7%).
      • Citation : "CAP/CAPA 1 016 78,4 1 230 74,7 662 82,2 891 79,4 2 798 80,6 6 597 79,1" (pour le CAP/CAPA dans les DROM, session 2023, Taux de réussite (%)). Le taux global DROM (79,1%) est inférieur au taux national (84,7%).
      • Évolution des taux de réussite au BTS : Le taux de succès global au BTS en 2023 était de 75,5 %, avec des variations importantes selon les domaines de spécialité et le genre. Les femmes ont généralement un taux de succès légèrement supérieur à celui des hommes.
      • Citation : "Ensemble des spécialités 141 691 76,0 74,6 77,5 140 756 75,5 74,6 76,4" (Taux de succès global (%), Taux de succès Hommes (%), Taux de succès Femmes (%) pour le BTS, sessions 2022 et 2023).
      • Taux de réussite au DUT/BUT : La réussite cumulée en 3 ans pour l'ensemble des spécialités de DUT est de 79,2 %, avec des différences entre le secteur de la production (77,7 %) et le secteur des services (80,3 %).
      • Citation : "Ensemble 61 406 100,0 72,4 70,1 6,8 5,2 79,2 75,3" (Réussite cumulée en 3 ans (%) pour l'ensemble des spécialités de DUT).

      Enjeux potentiels / Points à suivre :

      La croissance de l'apprentissage, en particulier dans l'enseignement supérieur, pose des questions sur l'adéquation de l'offre de formation et son financement.

      Les écarts de taux de réussite selon les filières et les régions, notamment dans les DROM, pourraient nécessiter des actions spécifiques.

      La répartition des genres dans certaines filières, comme les formations d'ingénieurs, reste un point d'attention. L'insertion professionnelle des apprentis, bien que globalement favorable, présente des disparités selon les niveaux de sortie et les secteurs.

      Ce briefing se base sur les informations fournies dans les extraits du document RERS.pdf. Pour une analyse plus approfondie, il est recommandé de consulter le document complet.

    1. research questions/goals 1. assuming the 298 score is legit, does it warrant the 90th percentile claim? 2. is it worth questioning the 298 claim? (replication, reproducibility - can it even be verified?) 3. given various settings/parameters in GPT-4, is it worth assessing how adjusting those settings will affect GPT's performance?

      methodology

      • paper attempts to replicate the reported MBE score using methods as close as possible to original papers
      • comparing MBE performance using various (best & worst) hyperparameter settings
      • re-examining performance on the essays by

      a) evaluating to which extent the methodology of grading GPT4 essays deviated from official protocol used by NCBE during actual bar exam

      b) to which extent such deviations might undermine one's confidence in the scaled essay scoers reported by openai

    2. structure of the paper: 1. evaluating the 90th percentile claim: 4 findings about the actual bar exam performance 2. investigation of validity of the score 3. investigation of adjusting temperature settings 4. conclusion: estimates of the percentile are over inflated

    1. Individual access and the induction of participants into online learning areessential prerequisites for online conference participation (stage 1, at the base ofthe flights of steps). Stage 2 involves individual participants establishing theironline identities and then finding others with whom to interact. At stage 3,participants engage in mutual exchange of information. Up to and includingstage 3,a form of co-operation occurs whereby each person supports the otherparticipants’ goals. At stage 4, course-related group discussions develop and theinteraction becomes more collaborative. At stage 5, participants look for morebenefits from the system to help them achieve personal goals and reflect on thelearning processes.Each stage requires participants to master certain technical skills (shown inthe bottom left of each step). Each stage calls for different e-moderating skills(shown on the right top of each step). The ‘interactivity bar’ running along theright of the flight of steps suggests the intensity of interactivity that you can

      Este capítulo da autora Gilles Salmon, descreve o modelo do processo ensino aprendizagem em contexto digital baseado num sistema em que o conhecimento é construído em 5 etapas em que o professor assume papeis de moderador e de suporte técnico ao longo deste processo. é da responsabilidade do professor construir e-atividades que permitam ao aluno construir o seu conhecimento ao mesmo tempo que o aluno deve dominar determinadas capacidades técnicas para que consiga ascendes nas diferentes etapas da construção de conhecimento. é referido também que é entre as etapas 3-5 que se dá desenvolvimento em termos de aquisição de competências e conhecimento, no entanto este processo é mais fluido se tiverem acesso as e-atividades das etapas 1 e 2.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      (1) Wnt3 cue and global PCP. PCP has been described in detail in a previous paper on Clytia (Momose et al, 2012): its orientation along the oral-aboral body axis (ciliary basal body positioning studies), and its function in directional polarity during gastrulation (Stbm-, Fz1-, and Dsh-MO experiments). I wonder if this part could be shortened. What is new, however, are the knockdown and Wnt3-mRNA rescue experiments, which provide a deeper insight into the link between Wnt3 function in the blastopore organiser as a source or cue for axis formation. These experiments demonstrate that the Wnt3 knockdown induces defects equivalent to PCP factor knockdown, but can be rescued by Wnt3-mRNA injection, even at a distance of 200 µm away from the Wnt-positive area. The experimental set-up of these new molecular experiments follows in important aspects those of Freeman's experiments of 1981 (who in turn was motivated to re-examine Teissier's work of 1931/1933 ...). Freeman did not use the term "global polarity" but the concept of an axis-inducing source and a long-range tissue polarity can be traced back to both researchers.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comments for evolutionary biology and cnidarian developmental biology.

      Concerning the presentation of the basic PCP structure of Clytia embryo epidermal cells, we prefer to retain this section unless there is a strict limit on manuscript length. These experiments provide background information necessary to establish the biological system for the readers. The structures of cells, notably cell adhesion, cilia, and the cytoskeleton, are essential components of this system.

      We have restored sentences concerning the historical contributions of Freeman and Teissier from a previous version of the manuscript.

      Freeman’s work offered two key insights. The first is the concept that cell polarity spreads and self-organizes over the distances revealed by the tissue orientation of aggregate embryonic cells (Freeman, 1981 https://doi.org/10.1007/BF00867804), which was termed “global polarity” in a review by Primus and Freeman (2004 https://doi.org/10.1002/bies.20031). This concept closely resembles the modern understanding of PCP coordination mechanisms mediated by core PCP interactions. Remarkably, Freeman proposed this idea in the early 1980s, at the same time of the first characterization of PCP mutants in Drosophila (Gubb and Garcia-Bellido 1982). The second is the role of egg polarity in defining the axis. Freeman demonstrated that the position of the first cleavage furrow predicts the oral-aboral axis by a series of sophisticated experiments. This was a milestone for the studies of cnidarian body axis development.

      However, some of Freeman’s interpretations were misleading. In the 1981 paper, he stated:

      "Polarity

      Other work that I have done has established that the anterior-posterior axis of the planula is set up at the time of the first cleavage; the site where cleavage is initiated specifies the posterior pole of this axis (Freeman 1980). The experiment reported here in which embryos were cut into halves and each half regulated to form a normal planula with the same polarity properties as the embryo it is from provides evidence that these polarity properties are remarkably stable at all developmental stages tested ranging from 4 cell to postgastrula embryos. "

      Freeman hypothesised that cell polarity at the 2- or 4-cell stage, referred to as the “polarity of first cell cleavage,” is directly inherited as the global polarity observed in later developmental stages.

      In the review by Primus and Freeman (2004), two hypotheses were introduced: (1) maternally localised factors, such as mRNA, determine the axis, and (2) cell polarity of cleavage furrow formation, is inherited to later stages and determines the axis. Freeman described these two hypotheses as mutually exclusive. However, we now know that cell polarity at early cleavage stages does not directly contribute to global polarity/PCP. Instead, Wnt/β-catenin signaling is regionally activated by maternally localised mRNAs distributed along the egg polarity (Momose, 2007; Momose, 2008), which maintain Wnt3 localisation and direct morphological axis patterning. Our study shown in this article unified these hypotheses.

      On the second point, as the reviewer noted, Freeman indeed revisited the work of Georges Teissier (Teissier, 1931), who conducted similar experiments on Amphisbetia embryos. It was Teissier who first described how the egg polarity is preserved in later stages and defines the axis. Teissier, however, carefully avoided asserting continuity between egg and blastula polarities, allowing for the possibility of “rétablissement” (re-establishment). As Teissier stated:

      "…On constate, en second lieu, que la polarité de l’œuf se conserve dans chacun de se fragment et que le maintien ou le rétablissement de cette polarité sont indispensables à un développement normal. Un fragment d’œuf ou de morula n’a aucune partie ni aucun blastomère qui soit rigoureusement déterminé comme endoderme, mais possède, par contre, un pôle antérieur et un pôle postérieur bien définis.…

      Mais cette proposition, qui ne semble pourtant guère dépasser la simple constatation des faits, soulève de grave difficulté. Elle donne en effet à la polarité, propriété encore bien mystérieuse, un rôle morphogénétique de premier ordre et implique des conséquences trop importantes pour qu’on puisse l’accepter sans un très sérieux examen.

      Comme je ne pense pas que les questions relatives à la nature des localisation germinales, à l’existence et au fonctionnement des organisateurs de l’œuf des Cœlentérés, puissant, dans l’état actuel de nos connaissances, être discutées utilement, je ne veux voir dans la proposition précédente qu’une façons commode et tout provisoire de systématiser les faits."

      English translation:

      “We note also that the polarity of the egg is preserved in each fragment and that the maintenance or re-establishment of this polarity is essential for normal development. A fragment of egg or morula has no part or blastomere that is rigorously determined as endoderm, but has, on the other hand, a well-defined anterior and posterior pole....

      But this proposition, which hardly seems to go beyond the simple observation of facts, raises serious difficulties. It gives polarity, still a mysterious property, a morphogenetic role of the first order, and implies consequences too important to be accepted without very serious examination.

      As I do not believe that questions concerning the nature of germinal localisation, or the existence and functioning of the egg organisers in Coelenterates, can, in the present state of our knowledge, be usefully discussed, I prefer only to see in the foregoing proposition a convenient and very provisional way of systematising the facts.”

      Teissier, G. (1931). Étude Expérimentale du Développement de Quelques Hydraires. Ann. Sc. Nat. Zool 14, 5–59.

      Teissier's interpretation and caution were reasonable.

      Our work connects recent molecular research on axis specification mechanisms in cnidarians with the classic experimental studies of Freeman and Teissier. We believe it is essential to present and acknowledge their conceptual contributions.  We have updated the Discussion to include these points.

      (2) PCP propagation and β-catenin. The central but unanswered question in this study focuses on the interaction between Wnt3 and PCP and the propagation of PCP. Wnt3 has been described in cnidarians but also in vertebrates and insects as a canonical Wnt interacting with β-catenin in an autocatalytic loop. The surprising result of this study is that the action of Wnt3 on PCP orientation is not inhibited in the presence of a dominant-negative form of CheTCF (dnTCF) ruling out a potential function of β-catenin in PCP. This was supported by studies with constitutively active β-catenin (CA-β-cat) mRNA which was unable to restore PCP coordination nor elongation of Wnt3-depleted embryos but did restore β-catenin-dependent gastrulation. Based on these data, the authors conclude that Wnt3 has two independent roles: Wnt/β-catenin activation and initial PCP orientation (two-step model for PCP formation). However, the molecular basis for the interaction of Wnt3 with the PCP machinery and how the specificity of Wnt3 for both pathways is regulated at the level of Wnt-receiving cells (Fz-Dsh) remain unresolved. Also, with respect to PCP propagation, there is no answer with respect to the underlying mechanisms. The authors found that PCP components are expressed in the mid-blastula stage, but without any further indication of how the signal might be propagated, e.g., by a wavefront of local cell alignment. Here, it is necessary to address the underlying possible cellular interactions more explicitly.

      The question of how Wnt3 interacts with the core PCP complex remains open for future investigation. An obvious hypothesis is that one of the Frizzled receptors binds Wnt3 ligands. For additional details, please refer to the response to Reviewer 2’s comment. Regarding other non-classic Wnt receptors, studies in the developing mouse limb have demonstrated that a Wnt5a gradient controls PCP polarisation via ROR receptors and graded Strabismus phosphorylation (Gao et al., 2011, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.devcel.2011.01.001). However, in this context, the Wnt5a gradient influences the frequency of polarised cells rather than PCP orientation. In Clytia, we performed gene knockdown experiments targeting ROR and RYK receptors using Morpholinos but did not observe any effect on axial patterning, suggesting that these receptors are unlikely to be involved in Wnt3 interaction.

      Concerning PCP propagation mechanisms, these are well-characterized in both Drosophila and vertebrates and conserved across taxa. The localised Fz-Fmi complex at the apical cortex of a cell interacts with the oppositely localised Stbm-Fmi complex in neighbouring cells, enabling coordination of PCP between directly adjacent cells. This interaction provides a comprehensive explanation for PCP propagation mechanisms. In Drosophila, the “domineering non-autonomy” effect is a well-documented phenomenon where PCP orientation autonomously propagates from core PCP mutant mosaic patches. Overall, PCP propagation is a conserved and robust mechanism across metazoans.

      (3) The proposed two-step model for PCP formation has important evolutionary implications in that it excludes the current alternate model according to which a long-range Wnt3-gradient orients PCP ("Wnt/β-catenin-first"). Nevertheless, the initial PCP orientation by Wnt3 - as proposed in the two-step model - is not explained at all on the molecular level. Another possible, but less well-discussed and studied option for linking Wnt3 with PCP action could be the role of other Wnt pathways. The authors present compelling evidence that Wnt3 is the most highly expressed Wnt in Clytia at all stages of development. The authors convincingly show that Wnt3 is the most highly expressed Wnt in Clytia at all stages of development (Figure S1). However, Wnt7 is also more highly expressed, which makes it a candidate for signal transduction from canonical Wnts to PCP Wnts. An involvement of Wnt7 in PCP regulation has been described in vertebrates (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2013.12.026). This would challenge the entire discussion and speculation on the evolutionary implications according to which PCP Wnt signaling comes first (PCP-first scenario") and canonical Wnt signaling later in metazoan evolution.

      First of all, we apologise that the expression profile of Wnt7originally provided in Figure S1 was incorrect; Wnt7 is not expressed in the embryonic stage. The error came from the accession number XLOC_034538 assigned to two transcripts, Wnt7 and Ataxin10, in the published genome assembly. Once the expression profile is revised in this light, the data are consistent with the in situ hybridisation data published in Momose et al. (2012, https://doi.org/10.1242/dev.084251). Wnt3 is the only Wnt ligand detectable between egg and gastrula stages. We appreciate the reviewer highlighting this issue and have corrected Figure S1

      If we understand correctly, the reviewer raises the possibility that Wnt3's downstream canonical Wnt/β-catenin pathway activates the expression of other Wnt genes, which in turn orient the PCP. Indeed, we showed that the expression of Wnt1 (previously called WntX2), Wnt2 (WntX1A), Wnt5 and Wnt6 (Wnt9) all becomes undetectable at the planula stage following Wnt3-MO injection (Momose et al., 2012). So, it is a reasonable concern.

      This possibility can be excluded because the canonical pathway activation by CA-β-cat does not restore PCP in Wnt3-MO-injected embryos and Wnt3 can orient PCP without Wnt/β-catenin pathway activity in the presence of dominant negative TCF (dnTCF). Concerning Wnt1b and Wnt11b, these transcripts are maternally stored and even more abundant than Wnt3. However, we can conclude that these do not have any role in axis patterning based on the complete axis loss in Wnt3-MO morphants.

      Lastly, it should of course be remembered that the chronological order of characters appearing in a developmental process does not necessarily reflect their appearance in evolution from ancestral to modern.

      (4) The discussion, including Figure 6, is strongly biased towards the traditional evolutionary scenario postulating a choanzoan-sponge ancestry of metazoans. Chromosome-linkage data of pre-metazoans and metazoans (Schulz et al., 2023; https://doi.org/10(1038/s41586-023-05936-6) now indicate a radically different scenario according to which ctenophores represent the ancestral form and are sister to sponges, cnidarians and bilaterians (the Ctenophora-sister hypothesis). This has also implications for the evolution of Wnt signalling, as discussed in the recent Nature Genetics Review by Holzem et al. (2024) (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41576-024-00699-w). Furthermore, it calls into question the hypothesis of a filter-feeding multicellular gastrula-like ancestor as proposed by Haeckel (Maegele et al., 2023). These papers have not yet been referenced, but they would provide a more robust discussion.

      I overlooked the excellent work of Holzem and colleagues. I appreciate this suggestion. The work, unfortunately, focusses mainly on the Wnt/β-catenin pathway. The PCP pathway consists of not only core PCP (Fmi Stbm, Pk, Dgo, Fz and Dsh) but many other components, such as Rho GTPase, which are all dealt with as "PCP” in this review. While the full set of core PCP is present only in the phylum Cnidaria and bilaterians, Pk and Dgo are present in choanoflagellate and Rho GTPase or ROCK are present even in Fungi (Lapébie et al,  2011 DOI 10.1002/bies.201100023). Holzem et al., described PCP as absent in ctenophores, likely based on the lack of Fmi/Stbm, while claiming its presence in fungi based on Rho GTPase and ROCK. This led to their argument that the Wnt/β-catenin pathway is more ancestral, supported by the absence of PCP components in ctenophores alongside the ctenophore-sister hypothesis.

      This likely reflects the limited attention given to PCP in the metazoan evolutionary biology community. Our work sheds light on the importance of PCP regulation in metazoan evolution. In the revised Discussion, we emphasise this point together with the importance of cell biology studies in basal metazoans and compare them based on functional studies.

      The observation of Aiptasia’s predatory “gastrula-like” larvae is indeed fascinating. Understanding how early metazoan ancestors obtained nutrients is a key to uncovering the origins of metazoans. However, the relevance of this work to metazoan evolution remains unclear. Predatory nutrient uptake is common among cnidarians, and the findings of Maegele et al. could suggest that the predatory gastrula-like state is ancestral, with the symbiotic state being derived, within Cnidaria, but does not notably support it in metazoa. Also, it has to be clarified how predation is defined. Fundamentally, there is little distinction between filter-feeding and predatory feeding regarding heterotrophy; both feeding types require digestive machinery. If active feeding behaviour is the essence of predation, this would be better addressed as an evolutionary neurobiology or neuroscience question. Another mystery is what the metazoan ancestors took as food if they were predatory; there has to be a non-predatorial metazoan, as a food, already present before them.<br /> Overall, Maegele’s work seems premature to be incorporated into the metazoan evo-devo discussion. In either case, the standard approach would involve comparative studies across taxa. It will be interesting to see follow-up works on comparative and functional genomics of predatory/digestive machinery within phylum cnidaria and across metazoan, including sponge and ctenophores.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      We appreciate the reviewer’s expertise and recommendations regarding Wnt and PCP signalling. It would be our great pleasure if our work is seen and referenced by the cell biology community using model animals.

      (1) According to the 2-step model, one would expect that there is a temporal gradient in the spreading of the PCP from oral to aboral. Is there any indication for this?

      The best indication of a spatial and temporal gradient of PCP establishment observed so far is at the blastula stage (Fig.2B). PCP gradually becomes coordinated starting at 9 hpf, when PCP is slightly better organised close to the Wnt3-positive area (oral) compared to distal (aboral) areas. We did live imaging with tagged Poc1 to track the positions of centrioles in each cell (Fig. 2E), but this did not provide any further information about the spreading of the PCP. We hypothesise that there is a delay between PCP polarisation—established through the subcellular localisation of core PCP components—and its structural manifestation as ciliary positioning and orientation. This delay likely varies between cells, preventing the formation of a precise spatial PCP wave. We hope in the future to address this temporal aspect by live-imaging of core PCP proteins labelled with fluorescent proteins.

      (2) PCP is likely to be an all-or-nothing effect, while axial patterning is dose-dependent. is there a critical dose of Wnt3 level required to kick off the PCP pathway?

      We agree that the PCP phenotype is all-or-nothing.  Although we did not perform a quantitative test, we have not seen any intermediate phenotypes in Wnt3-rescue experiments. In our experimental condition (100 ng/µl mRNA), the Wnt3 mRNA injection into a blastomere consistently restores the body axis (via PCP) of Wnt3-MO injected embryos. No axis restoration was observed at 1 ng/µl. At 10 ng/µl, some embryos showed a restored elongated axis, while others showed no axis. The volume of injection is not precisely controllable and can easily vary two-fold, so we assume the limit is somewhere around 10 ng/µl. This contrasts with endoderm rescue via Wnt/β-catenin activation by GSK-β-inhibitors (alsterpaullone) or the constitutively active β-catenin (CA-β-cat), which occurs in a dose-dependent manner (ex. Supplementary Figure S2).

      (3) The key question left unaddressed is whether Wnt3 signals through one or two different Frizzled receptors? Which Frizzled receptors are candidates for this? Could they be knocked down to see which pathway (or both) is affected?

      How Wnt3 orientates the PCP system is an extremely interesting question that needs to be answered, and we plan to address this in the future. In Clytia, four Frizzled genes have been identified in the genome: CheFz1 (vertebrate counterpart of Fz1, 2, 3, 6 and 7), CheFz2 (Fz5 and 8), CheFz3 (Fz9/10) and CheFz4 (Fz4). Knockdown of CheFz1, hereby called Fz1, by Morpholino showed a PCP phenotype (Momose 2012, supplementary data). For a long time, we have suspected that the most likely candidate for PCP mediation is CheFz1. The Wnt3-rescue experiment in CheFz1-blocked background (similar experiment to Figure 3E, F) could potentially have answered this question. No PCP orientation would be expected even near the Wnt3-mRNA injected area if CheFz1 was the Wnt3 receptor for PCP orientation. Unfortunately, no reliable PCP phenotype was observed in this experiment, so this experiment was not included in the manuscript. We initially thought this was due to incomplete suppression of CheFz1 mRNA translation by the Morpholino when used at sub-toxic doses. But we now favour the alternative explanation that Fz1 does not mediate the Wnt3 signal responsible for initiating PCP orientation. We have previously shown that Fz1 is required for the Wnt/ β-catenin pathway (indicated by nuclear β-catenin localisation Momose 2007), which is then required to maintain Wnt3 expression. We cannot rule out that the PCP phenotype obtained previously following Fz1 knockdown (supplementary data in Momose 2012) is an indirect effect of Wnt3 downregulation.

      In future work, we plan to test the PCP involvement of the other Clytia Frizzleds, notably CheFz2 and CheFz4, which are not present as maternal mRNAs but are zygotically expressed in the early gastrula stage. CheFz3 is unlikely to be a candidate because it is aborally localised and acts as a negative receptor for the Wnt/β-catenin pathway (Momose 2007). Lastly, in unpublished experiments, no axial phenotype was obtained with ROR and RYK knockdown by Morpholino (T. Momose unpublished). 

      Based on these considerations, our current working hypothesis is that Wnt3 somehow stabilises or activates one of the Frizzled receptors acting as a core PCP protein in a polarised manner, likely at the oral side of each cell (Stbm is localised at the aboral side), which breaks the PCP symmetry and is propagated across the body axis.

      A few lines have been added to the discussion regarding this point.

      (4) Is there also PCP within the Wnt3 expressing domain? In other words, (and linked to question 2), does PCP require a certain concentration of Wnt3 or a gradient of Wnt3 in order to provide an orientation?

      In the context of a simple Wn3-MO rescue experiment, PCP is coordinated within the Wnt3-positive area. But this could be because PCP can propagate in both orientations, so it does not answer the question. In the Wnt3-rescue experiments in Fmi-MO and Stbm-MO embryos, PCP seemed better oriented close to the boundary between Wnt3-positive and -negative areas, in particular outside the Wnt3-positive area and rather uncoordinated deep in the middle of Wnt3-RNA positive area. 

      If Wnt3 expression is uniform across an embryo, as achieved by Wnt3-mRNA injection into the egg, the axis will be lost entirely (Momose 2008). We interpret these observations as indicating that Wnt3 expression "contrasts" (or steep gradients) act as the PCP orientation cue rather than a permissive manner.

      In normal development, mRNA expression detected by in situ hybridisation has a slight gradient, but we do not have any information about the endogenous protein distribution.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comments. A few sentences addressing points (2) and (4) have been added. The graphical models in Figures 4 and 6A have been updated. While these are relatively minor changes to the manuscript, they significantly impact future perspectives.

      Minor comments:

      (1) Labeling in some of the figures is too small and not legible, e.g. Figures 4E-H. Please check and improve.

      Agreed. Some labelling was way too small (2.5 points). This has been corrected. The minimum font size is now 6-point for most labelling in the revised Figures. 

      (2) Page 13: ...and allow us to novel scenarios for PCP-driven axis symmetry breaking... seems to lack the verb "propose"

      Corrected.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Compelling and clearly described work that combines two elegant cell fate reporter strains with mathematical modelling to describe the kinetics of CD4+ TRM in mice. The aim is to investigate the cell dynamics underlying the maintenance of CD4+TRM.

      The main conclusions are that:

      (1) CD4+ TRM are not intrinsically long-lived.

      (2) Even clonal half-lives are short: 1 month for TRM in skin, and even shorter (12 days) for TRM in lamina propria.

      (3) TRM are maintained by self-renewal and circulating precursors.

      Strengths:

      (1) Very clearly and succinctly written. Though in some places too succinctly! See suggestions below for areas I think could benefit from more detail.

      (2) Powerful combination of mouse strains and modelling to address questions that are hard to answer with other approaches.

      (3) The modelling of different modes of recruitment (quiescent, neutral, division linked) is extremely interesting and often neglected (for simpler neutral recruitment).

      Weaknesses/scope for improvement:

      (1) The authors use the same data set that they later fit for generating their priors. This double use of the same dataset always makes me a bit squeamish as I worry it could lead to an underestimate of errors on the parameters. Could the authors show plots of their priors and posteriors to check that the priors are not overly-influential? Also, how do differences in priors ultimately influence the degree of support a model gets (if at all)? Could differences in priors lead to one model gaining more support than another?

      We now show the priors and posteriors overlaid in Figure S2. The posteriors lie well within the priors, giving us confidence that the priors are not overly influential.

      (2) The authors state (line 81) that cells were "identified as tissue-localised by virtue of their protection from short-term in vivo labelling (Methods; Fig. S1B)". I would like to see more information on this. How short is short term? How long after labelling do cells need to remain unlabelled in order to be designated tissue-localised (presumably label will get to tissue pretty quickly -within hours?). Can the authors provide citations to defend the assumption that all label-negative cells are tissue-localised (no false negatives)?

      And conversely that no label-positive cells can be found in the tissue (no false positives)? I couldn't actually find the relevant section in the methods and Figure S1B didn't contain this information.

      We did describe the in vivo labeling in the first section of Methods (it was for 3 mins before sacrifice). The two aims of Fig S1B were to show the gating strategy (label-positive and negatives from tissue samples were clearly separated) and to address the false-positive issue. Less than 3% of cells in our tissue samples were positive; therefore, at most 3% of truly tissue-resident cells acquired the i.v. label, and likely less. Excluding those (as we did) therefore makes little difference to our analyses in terms of cell numbers. False negative rates are expected to be extremely low; labeling within circulating cells is typically >99% (see refs in Methods).

      (3) Are the target and precursor populations from the same mice? If so is there any way to reflect the between-individual variation in the precursor population (not captured by the simple empirical fit)? I am thinking particularly of the skin and LP CD4+CD69- populations where the fraction of cells that are mTOM+ (and to a lesser extent YFP+) spans virtually the whole range. Would it be nice to capture this information in downstream predictions if possible?

      This is a great point. We do indeed isolate all populations from each mouse. We are very aware of the advantages of using this grouping of information to reduce within-mouse uncertainty – we employ this as often as we can. The issue here was that the label content within the tissue (target) at any time depends on the entire trajectory of the label frequency in the precursor, in that mouse, up to that point. We can’t identify this curve for each animal individually – so we are obliged to use a population average.

      To mitigate this lack of pairing we do take a very conservative approach and fit this empirical function describing the trajectories of YFP and mTom in precursors at the same time as the label kinetics in the target; that is, we account for uncertainty in label influx in our fits and parameter estimates.

      Another issue is that to be sure that we are performing model selection appropriately, we only use the distribution of the likelihood on the target observations when comparing support for different precursors with LOO-IC. If we had been able to pair the precursor and target data in some way, the two would then be entangled and model comparison across precursors would not be possible.

      We’ve added some of this to the discussion.

      (4) In Figure 3, estimates of kinetics for cells in LP appear to be more dependent on the input model (quiescent/neutral/division-linked) than the same parameters in the skin. Can the authors explain intuitively why this is the case?

      This is a nice observation and it has a fairly straightforward explanation. As we pointed out in the paper, estimated rates of self renewal become more sensitive to the mode of recruitment the greater the rate of influx. If immigrants are quiescent, all Ki67 in the tissue has to be explained by self renewal. If all new immigrants are Ki67 high, the estimate of the rate of self renewal within the tissue will be lower. Across the board, the estimated rates of influx into gut were consistently higher than those in skin, and so the sensitivity of parameters to the mode of recruitment was much more obvious at that site.

      The importance of this trade-off for the division linked model can also be seen when you look at the neutral and quiescent models; they give similar parameter estimates because the Ki67 levels within all precursor populations were all less than 25% and so those two modes of recruitment are difficult to distinguish.

      (5) Can the authors include plots of the model fits to data associated with the different strengths of support shown in Figure 4? That is, I would like to know what a difference in the strength of say 0.43 compared with 0.3 looks like in "real terms". I feel strongly that this is important. Are all the fits fantastic, and some marginally better than others? Are they all dreadful and some are just less dreadful? Or are there meaningful differences?

      This is another good point (and from the author recommendations list, is your most important concern).

      We find that a fairly common issue is that models that are clearly distinguished by information criteria or LRTs can often give visually quite similar fits. Our experience is that this is partly due to the fact that models are usually fit on transformed scales (e.g. log for cell counts, logit for fractions) to normalise residuals, and this uncertainty is compressed when one looks at fits on the observed scale (e.g. linear). Another issue in our case is that for each model (precursor, target, and mode of recruitment) we fit 6 time courses simultaneously. Visual comparisons of fits of different models can then be a little difficult or misleading; apparently small differences in each fitted timecourse can add up to quite significant changes in the combined likelihood. We added this to the Discussion.

      The number of models is combinatorial (Fig. 4) so showing them all seems a bit cumbersome. But now in the supporting information (Fig. S3), for each target we show the best, second best, and the worst model fits overlaid, to give a sense of the dynamic range of the models we considered. As you will now see, visual differences among the most strongly supported models were not huge (but refer to our point just above). Measures of out-of-sample prediction error (LOO-IC) discriminated between these models reasonably well, though (weights shown in Fig. 4).

      It’s also worth mentioning here that we have substantially greater confidence in the identity of the precursors than in the precise modes of recruitment - you can see this clearly in the groupings of weights in Figure 4A. We did comment on this in the text but now emphasise it more.

      (6) Figure 4 left me unclear about exactly which combinations of precursors and targets were considered. Figure 3 implies there are 5 precursors but in Figure 4A at most 4 are considered. Also, Figure 4B suggests skin CD69- were considered a target. This doesn't seem to be specified anywhere.

      Thanks for pointing this out. When we were considering CD4+ EM in bulk as target, this population includes CD69- cells; in those fits, therefore, we couldn't use CD69- as a precursor. We now clarify this in the caption. Thanks also for the observation about Figure 4B; we didn’t consider CD69- cells as a target, so we’ve also made that clearer.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This manuscript addresses a fundamental problem of immunology - the persistence mechanisms of tissue-resident memory T cells (TRMs). It introduces a novel quantitative methodology, combining the in vivo tracing of T-cell cohorts with rigorous mathematical modeling and inference. Interestingly, the authors show that immigration plays a key role in maintaining CD4+ TRM populations in both skin and lamina propria (LP), with LP TRMs being more dependent on immigration than skin TRMs. This is an original and potentially impactful manuscript. However, several aspects were not clear and would benefit from being explained better or worked out in more detail.

      (1) The key observations are as follows:

      a) When heritably labeling cells due to CD4 expression, CD4+ TRM labeling frequency declines with time. This implies that CD4+ TRMs are ultimately replenished from a source not labeled, hence not expressing CD4. Most likely, this would be DN thymocytes.

      That’s correct.

      b) After labeling by Ki67 expression, labeled CD4+ TRMs also decline - This is what Figure 1B suggests. Hence they would be replaced by a source that was not in the cell cycle at the time of labeling. However, is this really borne out by the experimental data (Figure 2C, middle row)? Please clarify.

      (2) For potential source populations (Figure 2D): Please discuss these data critically. For example, CD4+ CD69- cells in skin and LP start with a much lower initial labeling frequency than the respective TRM populations. Could the former then be precursors of the latter?

      A similar question applies to LN YFP+ cells. Moreover, is the increase in YFP labeling in naïve T cells a result of their production from proliferative thymocytes? How well does the quantitative interpretation of YFP labeling kinetics in a target population work when populations upstream show opposite trends (e.g., naïve T cells increasing in YFP+ frequency but memory cells in effect decreasing, as, at the time of labeling, non-activated = non-proliferative T cells (and hence YFP-) might later become activated and contribute to memory)?

      These are good (and related) points. We've added some text to the discussion, paragraphs 2 and 3; we reproduce it here, slightly expanded.

      Fig 1B was a schematic but did faithfully reflect the impact of any waning of YFP in precursor on its kinetic in the targets. However, in our experiments, as you noted, the kinetics of YFP in most of the precursor populations were quite flat. This was due in part to memory subsets being sustained by the increasing levels of YFP within naïve cells from the cohort of thymocytes labeled during treatment. There is also likely some residual permanent labeling of lymphocyte progenitor populations. We discussed this in Lukas Front Imm 2023. (The latter is not a problem; all that matters for our analysis is that we generate a reasonable empirical description of the label kinetics in naive cells, however it arises). YFP is therefore not cleanly washed out in the periphery; and so for models with circulating memory as the tissue precursor, the flatness of their YFP curves leads to rather flat curves in the tissues.

      The mTom labelling was more informative as it was clearly diluted out of all peripheral populations by mTom-negative descendants of thymically-derived cells, as you point out in (a).

      Regarding (2), re: interpreting the initial levels of labels in precursors and targets. The important point here is that YFP and mTom were induced quickly in all populations we studied; therefore our inferences regarding precursors and targets aren’t informed by the initial levels of levels in each. (Imagine a slow precursor feeding a rapidly dividing target; YFP levels in the former would start lower than those in the latter). The causal issue that we think you’re referring to would matter if one expects the targets to begin with no label at all; for instance, in our busulfan chimeric mouse model (e.g. Hogan PNAS 2015) new, thymically derived ‘labelled’ (donor) cells progressively infiltrate replete ‘unlabelled’ (host) populations. In that case, one can immediately reject certain differentiation pathways by looking the sequence of accrual of donor cells in different subsets.

      The trends in YFP and mTom frequencies after treatment do matter for pathway inference, though, because precursor kinetics must leave an imprint on the target. For the case you mentioned, with opposite trends in label kinetics, such models would unlikely to be supported strongly; indeed, we never saw strong support for naïve cells (strongly increasing YFP) as a direct precursor of TRM (fairly flat).

      We’ve added a condensed version of this to the Discussion.

      (3) Please add a measure of variation (e.g., suitable credible intervals) to the "best fits" (solid lines in Figure 2).

      Added.

      (4) Could the authors better explain the motivation for basing their model comparisons on the Leave-OneOut (LOO) cross-validation method? Why not use Bayesian evidence instead?

      Bayes factors are very sensitive to priors and are either computationally unstable if calculated with importance sampling methods, or very expensive to calculate, if ones uses the more stable bridge sampling method. (We also note that fitting just a single model here takes a substantial amount of time). Further, using BF can be unreliable unless one of the models is close to the 'true' data generating model; though they seem to work well, we can be sure that none of our models are! For us, a more tractable and real-world selection criterion is based on the usefulness of a model, for which predictive performance is a reasonable proxy. In this case the mean out-of-sample prediction error (which LOO-IC reflects) is a wellestablished and valid means of ascribing support to different models.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      Wang et al. identify Hamlet, a PR-containing transcription factor, as a master regulator of reproductive development in Drosophila. Specifically, the fusion between the gonad and genital disc is necessary for the development of continuous testes and seminal vesicle tissue essential for fertility. To do this, the authors generate novel Hamlet null mutants by CRISPR/Cas9 gene editing and characterize the morphological, physiological, and gene expression changes of the mutants using immunofluorescence, RNA-seq, cut-tag, and in-situ analysis. Thus, Hamlet is discovered to regulate a unique expression program, which includes Wnt2 and Tl, that is necessary for testis development and fertility. 

      Strengths: 

      This is a rigorous and comprehensive study that identifies the Hamlet-dependent gene expression program mediating reproductive development in Drosophila. The Hamlet transcription targets are further characterized by Gal4/UAS-RNAi confirming their role in reproductive development. Finally, the study points to a role for Wnt2 and Tl as well as other Hamlet transcriptionally regulated genes in epithelial tissue fusion. 

      We appreciate that the reviewer thinks our study is rigorous.

      Weaknesses: 

      The image resolution and presentation of figures is a major issue in this study. As a nonexpert, it is nearly impossible to see the morphological changes as described in the results. Quantification of all cell biological phenotypes is also lacking therefore reducing the impact of this study to those familiar with tissue fusion events in Drosophila development. 

      In the revised version, we have improved the image presentation and resolution. For all the images with more than two channels, we included single-channel images, changed the green color to lime and the red to magenta, highlighted the testis (TE) and seminal vescicles to make morphological changes more visible.  

      We had quantification for marker gene expression in the original version, and now also included quantification for cell biological phenotypes which are generally with 100% penetrance.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Strengths: 

      Wang and colleagues successfully uncovered an important function of the Drosophila PRDM16/PRDM3 homolog Hamlet (Ham) - a PR domain-containing transcription factor with known roles in the nervous system in Drosophila. To do so, they generated and analyzed new mutants lacking the PR domain, and also employed diverse preexisting tools. In doing so, they made a fascinating discovery: They found that PR-domain containing isoforms of ham are crucial in the intriguing development of the fly genital tract. Wang and colleagues found three distinct roles of Ham: (1) specifying the position of the testis terminal epithelium within the testis, (2) allowing normal shaping and growth of the anlagen of the seminal vesicles and paragonia and (3) enabling the crucial epithelial fusion between the seminal vesicle and the testis terminal epithelium. The mutant blocks fusion even if the parts are positioned correctly. The last finding is especially important, as there are few models allowing one to dissect the molecular underpinnings of heterotypic epithelial fusion in development. Their data suggest that they found a master regulator of this collective cell behavior. Further, they identified some of the cell biological players downstream of Ham, like for example E-Cadherin and Crumbs. In a holistic approach, they performed RNAseq and intersected them with the CUT&TAG-method, to find a comprehensive list of downstream factors directly regulated by Ham. Their function in the fusion process was validated by a tissue-specific RNAi screen. Meticulously, Wang and colleagues performed multiplexed in situ hybridization and analyzed different mutants, to gain a first understanding of the most important downstream pathways they characterized, which are Wnt2 and Toll. 

      This study pioneers a completely new system. It is a model for exploring a process crucial in morphogenesis across animal species, yet not well understood. Wang and colleagues not only identified a crucial regulator of heterotypic epithelial fusion but took on the considerable effort of meticulously pinning down functionally important downstream effectors by using many state-of-the-art methods. This is especially impressive, as the dissection of pupal genital discs before epithelial fusion is a time-consuming and difficult task. This promising work will be the foundation future studies build on, to further elucidate how this epithelial fusion works, for example on a cell biological and biomechanical level. 

      We appreciate that the reviewer thinks our study is orginal and important.

      Weaknesses: 

      The developing testis-genital disc system has many moving parts. Myotube migration was previously shown to be crucial for testis shape. This means, that there is the potential of non-tissue autonomous defects upon knockdown of genes in the genital disc or the terminal epithelium, affecting myotube behavior which in turn affects fusion, as myotubes might create the first "bridge" bringing the epithelia together. The authors clearly showed that their driver tools do not cause expression in myoblasts/myotubes, but this does not exclude non-tissue autonomous defects in their RNAi screen. Nevertheless, this is outside the scope of this work. 

      We thank the reviewer’s consideration of non-tissue autonomous defects upon gene knockdown. The driver, hamRSGal4, drives reporter gene expression mainly in the RS epithelia, but we did observe weak expression of the reporter in the myoblasts before they differentiate into myotubes. Thus, we could not rule out a non-tissue autonomou effect in the RNAi screen. So we now included a statement in the result, “Given that the hamRSGal4 driver is highly expressed in the TE and SV epithelia, we expect highly effective knockdown occurs only in these epithelial cells. However, hamRSGal4 also drives weak expression in the myoblasts before they differentiated into myotubes (Supplementary Fig. 5B), which may result in a non-tissue autonomous effect when knocking down the candidate genes expressed in myoblasts.”

      However, one point that could be addressed in this study: the RNAseq and CUT&TAG experiments would profit from adding principal component analyses, elucidating similarities and differences of the diverse biological and technical replicates. 

      Thanks for the suggestion. We now have included the PCA analyses in supplementary figure 6A-B and the corresponding description in the text. The PCA graphs validated the consistency between biological replicates of the RNA-seq samples. The Cut&Tag graphs confirm the consistency between the two biological replicates from the GFP samples, but show a higher variability between the w1118 replicates. Importantly, we only considered the overlapped peaks pulled by the GFP antibody from the ham_GFP genotype and the Ham antibody from the wildtype (w1118) sample as true Ham binding sites. 

      Recommendations for the authors:  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Major Concern: 

      (1) The image resolution and presentation of figures (Figures 2, 5, 6, and 7) is a major issue in this study. As a non-expert, it is nearly impossible to see the morphological changes as described in the results. Images need to be captured at higher resolution and zoomed in with arrows denoting changes as described. Individual channels, particularly for intensity measurement need to be shown in black and white in addition to merged images. Images also need pseudo-colored for color-blind individuals (i.e. no red-green staining). 

      The images were captured at a high resolution, but somehow the resolution was drammaticlly reduced in the BioRxiv PDF. We try to overcome this by directly submitting the PDF in the Elife submission system. In the revised version, we have included single-channel images, changed the green and red colors to lime and magenta for color blindness. We also highlighted the testis (TE) and seminal vescicle structures in the images to make morphological changes more visible.  

      (2) The penetrance of morphological changes observed in RT development is also unclear and needs to be rigorously quantified for data in Figures 2, 5, and 7. 

      We now included quantification for cell biological phenotypes which are generally with 100% penetrance. The percentage of the penetrance and the number of animals used are indicated in each corresponding image.  

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Major Points 

      (1) Lines 193- 220 I would strongly suggest pointing out the obvious shape defects of the testes visible in Figure 2A ("Spheres" instead of "Spirals"). These are probably a direct consequence of a lack in the epithelial connection that myotubes require to migrate onto the testis (in a normal way) as depicted in the cartoons, allowing the testis to adopt a spiral shape through myotube-sculpting (Bischoff et al., 2021), further confirming the authors' findings! 

      Good point. In the revised text, we have added more description of the testis shape defects and pointed out a potential contribution from compromised myotube migration.   

      (2) Line 216: "Often separated from each other". Here it would be important to mention how often. If the authors cannot quantify that from existing data, I suggest carrying it out in adult/pharate adult genital tracts (if there is no strong survivor bias due to the lethality of stronger affected animals), as this is much easier than timing prepupae. This should be a quick and easy experiment. 

      Because it is hard to tell whether the separation of the SV and TE was caused by developmental defects or sometimes could be due to technical issues (bad dissection), we now change the description to, “control animals always showed connected TE and SV, whereas ham mutant TE and SV tissues were either separated from each other, or appeared contacted but with the epithelial tubes being discontinuous (Fig. 2B).” Additionally, we quantified the disconnection phenotype, which is 100% penetrance in 18 mutant animals. This quantification is now included in the figure. 

      (3) Lines 289-305, Figure 3. I could only find how many replicates were analyzed in the RNAseq/CUT&Tag experiments in the Material & Methods section. I would add that at least in the figure legends, and perhaps even in the main text. Most importantly, I would add a Principal Component Analysis (one for RNAseq and one for the CUT&TAG experiment), to demonstrate the similarity of biological replicates (3x RNaseq, 4x Cut&Tag) but also of the technical replicates (RNAseq: wt & wt/dg, ham/ham & ham/df, GD & TE; CUT&TAG: Antibody & GFP-Antibody, TG&TE...). This should be very easy with the existing data, and clearly demonstrate similarities & differences in the different types of replicates and conditions. 

      Principle component analysis and its description are now added to Supplementary Fig 6 and the main text respectively. 

      (4) Line 321; Supplementary Table 1: In the table, I cannot find which genes are down- or upregulated - something that I think is very important. I would add that, and remove the "color" column, which does not add any useful information. 

      In Supplementary table 1, the first sheet includes upregulated genes while the second sheet includes downregulated genes. We removed the column “color” as suggested.  

      (5) Line 409: SCRINSHOT was carried out with candidate genes from the screen. One gene I could not find in that list was the potential microtubule-actin crosslinker shot. If shot knockdown caused a phenotype, then I would clearly mention and show it. If not, I would mention why a shot is important, nonetheless. 

      shot is one of the candidate target genes selected from our RNA-seq and Cut&Tag data. However, in the RNAi screen, knocking down shot with the available RNAi lines did not cause any obvious phenotype. These could be due to inefficient RNAi knockdown or redundancy with other factors. We anyway wanted to examine shot expression pattern in the developing RS, give the important role of shot in epithelial fusion (Lee S., 2002). Using SCRINSHOT, we could detect epithelial-specific expression of shot, implying its potential function in this context. We now revised the text to clarify this point. 

      Minor points 

      (1) Cartoons in Figure 1: The cartoons look like they were inspired by the cartoon from Kozopas et al., 1998 Fig. 10 or Rothenbusch-Fender et al., 2016 Fig 1. I think the manuscript would greatly profit from better cartoons, that are closer to what the tissue really looks like (see Figure 1H, 2G), to allow people to understand the somewhat complicated architecture. The anlagen of the seminal vesicles/paragonia looks like a butterfly with a high columnar epithelium with a visible separation between paragonia/seminal vesicles (upper/lower "wing" of the "butterfly"). Descriptions like "unseparated" paragonia/seminal vesicle anlagen, would be much easier to understand if the cartoons would for example reflect this separation. It would even be better to add cartoons of the phenotypic classes too, and to put them right next to the micrographs. (Another nitpick with the cartoons: pigment cells are drastically larger and fewer in number (See: Bischoff et al., 2021 Figure 1E & MovieM1).) 

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have updated Figure 1 by adding additional illustrations showing the accessory gland and seminal vesicle structures in the pupal stage and changing the size of pigment cells.

      (2) Line 95-121 I would also briefly introduce PR domains, here. 

      We have added a brief descripition of the PR domains.

      (3) Line 152, 158, 160, 162. When first reading it, I was a bit confused by the usage of the word sensory organ. I would at least introduce that bristles are also known as external mechanosensory organs. 

      We have now revised the description to “mechano-sensory organ”.

      eg. Line 184, 194, and many more. Most times, the authors call testis muscle precursors "myoblasts". This is correct sometimes, but only when referring to the stage before myoblast-fusion, which takes place directly before epithelial fusion (28 h APF). Postmyoblast-fusion (eg. during migration onto the testis), these cells should be called myotubes or nascent myotubes, as the fly muscle community defined the term myoblast as the singlenuclei precursors to myotubes. 

      We have now revised the description accordingly.  

      (4) Line 217/Figure 2B. It looks like there is a myotube bridge between the testis and the genital disc. I would point that out if it's true. If the authors have a larger z-stack of this connection, I suggest creating an MIP, and checking if there are little clusters of two/three/four nuclei packed together. This would clearly show that the cells in between are indeed myotubes (granted that loss of ham does not introduce myoblast-fusion-defects). 

      We do not have a Z-stack of this connection, and thus can not confirm whether the cells in this image are myotubes. However, we found that mytubes can migrate onto the testis and form the muscular sheet in the ham mutant despite reduced myotube density. At the junction there are myotubes, suggesting that loss of ham does not introduce myoblast-fusion defects. These results are now included in the revised manuscript, supplementary Fig. 5 C-D.

      (5) Line 231/Supplementary Fig. 3C-G: I would add to the cartoons, where the different markers are expressed. 

      We have added marker gene expression in the cartoons.

      (6) Line 239. I don't see what Figure 1A/1H refers to, here. I would perhaps just remove it. 

      Yes, we have removed it.

      (7) Line 232. I would rephrase the beginning of the sentence to: Our data suggest Ham to be... 

      Yes, we have revised it.

      (8) Line 248-250/Figure 2F. Clonal analyses are great, but I think single channels should be shown in black and white. Also, a version without the white dashed line should be shown, to clearly see the differences between wt and ham-mutant cells. 

      Now single channel images from the green and red images are presented in Supplementary Figures. This particular one is in Supplementary Figure 3B. 

      (9) Line 490. The Toll-9 phenotype was identified on the sterility effect/lack-of-spermphenotype alone, and it was deduced, that this suggests connection defects. By showing the right focus plane in Fig S8B (lower right), it should be easy to directly show whether there is a connection defect or not. Also, one would expect clearer testis-shaping defects, like in ham-mutants, as a loss of connection should also affect myotube migration to shape the testis. This is just a minor point, as it only affects supplementary data with no larger impact on the overall findings, even if Toll-9 is shown not to have a defect, after all. 

      We find that scoring defects at the junction site at the adult stage is difficult and may not be always accurate. Instead, we score the presence of sperms in the SV, which indirectly but firmly suggests successful connection between the TE and SV. We have now included a quantification graph, showing the penetrance of the phentoype in the new Supplementary Fig.14C. There were indeed morphological defects of TE in Toll-9 RNAi animals. We now included the image and quantification in the new Supplementary Fig.14B.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This manuscript explores the molecular mechanisms that are involved in substrate recognition by the PP1 phosphatase. The authors previously showed that the PP1 interacting protein (PPI), PhactrI, conferred substrate specificity by remodelling the PP1 hydrophobic substrate groove. In this work, the authors aimed to understand the key determinant of how other PIPs, Neurabin and Spinophilin, mediate substrate recognition.

      The authors generated a few PP1-PIP fusion constructs, undertook TMT phosphoproteomics and validated their method using PP1-Phactr1/2/3/4 fusion constructs. Using this method, the authors identified phsophorylation sites controlled by PP1-Neurabin and focussed their work on 4E-BP1, thereby linking PP1-Neurabin to mTORC1 signalling. Upon validating that PP1-Neurabin dephosphorylates 4E-BP1, they determined that 4E-BP1 PBM binds to the PDZ domain of Neurabin with an affinity that was greater than 30 fold as compared to other substrates. PP1-Neurabin dephosphorylated 4E-BP1WT and IRSp53WT with a catalytic efficiency much greater than PP1 alone. However, PP1-Neurabin bound to 4E-BP1 and IRSp53 mutants lacking the Neurabin PDZ domain with a catalytic efficiency lesser than that observed with 4E-BP1WT. These results indicate the involvement of the PDZ domain in facilitating substrate recruitment by PP1-Neurabin. Interestingly, PP1-Phactr1 dephosphorylation of 4E-BP1 phenocopies PP1 alone, while PP1-Phactr1 dephosphorylates IRSp53 to a much higher extent than PP1 alone. These results highlights the importance of the PDZ domain and also shed light on how different PP1-PIP holoenzymes mediate substrate recognition using distinct mechanisms. The authors also show that the remodelling of the hydrophobic PP1 substrate groove which is essential for substrate recognition by PP1-Phactr1, was not required by PP1-Neurabin. Additionally, the authors also resolved the structure of a PP1-4E-BP1 fusion with the PDZ-containing C-terminal of Neurabin and observed that the Neurabin/PP1-4E-BP1 complex structure was oriented at 21{degree sign} to that in the unliganded Spinophilin/PP1 complex (resolved by Ragusa et al., 2010) owing to a slight bend in the C-terminal section that connects it to the RVxF-ΦΦ-R-W string. Since, no interaction was observed with the remodelled PP1-Neurabin hydrophobic groove, the authors utilised AlphaFold3 to further answer this. They observed a high confidence of interaction between the groove and phosphorylated substrate and a low confidence of interaction between the groove and unphosphorylated substrate, thereby suggesting that the hydrophobic groove remodelling is not involved in PP1-Neurabin recognition and dephosphorylation of 4E-BP1.

      In this work, the authors provide novel insights into how Neurabin depends on the interaction between its PDZ domain and PBM domains of potential substrates to mediate its recruitment by PP1. Additionally, they uncover a novel PP1-Neurabin substrate, 4E-BP1. They systematically employ phosphoproteomics, biochemical and structural methods to investigate substrate specifity in a robust fashion. Furthermore, the authors also compares the interactions between PP1-Neurabin to 4E-BP1 and IRSp53 (PP1-Phactr1 substrate) with PP1-Phactr1, to showcase the specificity of the mode of action employed by these complexes in mediating substrate specificity. The authors do employ an innovative PP1-PIP fusion strategy previously explored by Oberoi et al., 2016 and the authors themselves in Fedoryshchak et al., 2020. This method, allows for a more controlled investigation of the interactions between PP1-PIPs and its substrates. Furthermore, the authors have substantially characterised the importance of the PDZ domain using their fusion constructs, however, I believe that a further exploration into either structural or AlphaFold3 modelling of PBM domain substrate mutants, or a Neurabin PDZ-domain mutant might further strengthen this claim. Overall, the paper makes a substantial contribution to understanding substrate recognition and specificity in PP1-PIP complexes. The study's innovative methods, biological relevance, and mechanistic insights are strengths, but whether this mechanism occurs in a physiological context is unclear.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Response to the public reviews:

      We are very pleased to see these positive reviews of our preprint.

      Reviewers 1 and 3 raise issues around PIP-PP1 interactions.

      (1) Role of the “RVxF-ΦΦ-R-W string”

      Most PIPs interact with the globular PP1 catalytic core through short linear interaction motifs (SLiMs) and Choy et al (PNAS 2014) previously showed that many PIPs interact with PP1 through conserved trio of SLiMs, RVxF-ΦΦ-R, which is also present in the Phactrs.

      Previous structural analysis showed the trajectory of the PPP1R15A/B, Neurabin/Spinphilin (PPP1R9A/B), and PNUTS (PPP1R10) PIPs across the PP1 surface encompasses not only the RVxF-ΦΦ-R trio, but also additional sequences C-terminal to it (Chen et al, eLife, 2015). This extended trajectory is maintained in the Phactr1-PP1 complex (Fedoryshchak et al, eLife (2020). Based on structural alignment we proposed the existence of an additional hydrophobic “W” SLiM that interacts with the PP1 residues I133 and Y134.

      The extended “RVxF-ΦΦ-R-W” interaction brings sequences C-terminal to the “W” SLiM into the vicinity of the hydrophobic groove that adjoins the PP1 catalytic centre. In the Phactr1/PP1 complex, these sequences remodel the groove, generating a novel pocket that facilitates sequence-specific substrate recognition.

      This raises the possibility that sequences C-terminal to the extended “RVxF-ΦΦ-R-W string” in the other complexes also confer sequence-specific substrate recognition, and our study aims to test this hypothesis. Indeed, the hydrophobic groove structures of the Neurabin/Spinophilin/PP1 and Phactr1/PP1 complexes differ significantly (Ragusa et al, 2010; see Fedoryshchak et al 2020, Fig2 FigSupp1).

      (2) Orientation of the W side chain

      Reviewer 1 points out that in the substrate-bound PP1/PPP1R15A/Actin/eIF2 pre-dephosphorylation complex the W sidechain is inverted with respect to its orientation in  PP1-PPP1R15B complex (Yan et al, NSMB 2021). The authors proposed that this may reflect the role of actin in assembly of the quaternary complex. This does not necessarily invalidate the notion that sequences C-terminal to the “W” motif might play a role in actin-independent substrate recognition, and we therefore consider our inclusion of the R15A/B fusions in our analysis to be reasonable.

      (3) Conservation of W

      The motif ‘W’ does not mandate tryptophan - Phactrs and PPP1R15A/B indeed have W at this position but Neurabin/spinophilin contain VDP, which makes similar interactions. Similarly the “RVxF” motifs in Phactr1, Neurabin/Spinophilin, PPP1R15A/B and PNUTS are LIRF, KIKF, KV(R/T)F and TVTW respectively.

      In our revision, we will present comparisons of the differentially remodelled/modified PP1 hydrophobic groove in the various complexes, discuss the different orientations of the tryptophan in the previously published PPP1R15A/PP1 and PPP1R15B/PP1 structures. We will also address the other issues raised by the referees.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Comments and suggestions for revisions

      (1) The authors do not provide strong evidence that the interactions of the 'W' of the RVxF- øø -R-W string with the hydrophobic groove of PP1 is conserved in PIPs. Whereas the RVxF motif is well conserved and validated since its discovery in 1997, as are the øø - (an extension of the RVxF motif), and the 'R', the conservation of the Trp residue in the RVxF-øø-R-W string is not conserved.

      We did not mean to imply that the W motif is conserved amongst all PIPs.

      Most PIPs interact with the globular PP1 catalytic core through short linear interaction motifs (SLiMs). Choy et al (PNAS 2014) previously showed that many PIPs interact with PP1 through a conserved trio of SLiMs, RVxF-ΦΦ-R, which is also present in the Phactrs.

      Previous structural analysis showed that the PPP1R15A/B, Neurabin/Spinophilin (PPP1R9A/B), and PNUTS (PPP1R10) PIPs share a trajectory across the PP1 surface that encompasses not only the RVxF-ΦΦ-R SLIMs, but also additional sequences C-terminal to the R SLIM (Chen et al, eLife, 2015). This trajectory is also shared by the Phactr1-PP1 complex (Fedoryshchak et al, eLife, 2020). Based on this structural alignment we proposed the existence of an additional hydrophobic “W” SLiM that interacts with the PP1 residues I133 and Y134 (See Fedoryshchak et al, 2020, Figure 1 figure supplement 2).

      Introduction, paragraph 2 is rewritten to make this clearer.

      The sequence and positions of W differ in amino acid type and position relative to the RVxF-øø-R string.

      The motif ‘W’ does not mandate tryptophan, it is our name for a common structurally aligned motif: although the Phactrs and PPP1R15A/B indeed have W at this position, Neurabin and spinophilin contain VDP, which nevertheless makes similar interactions. Similarly the _“_RVxF” motifs in Phactr1, Neurabin/Spinophilin, PPP1R15A/B and PNUTS are LIRF, KIKF, KV(R/T)F and TVTW respectively.

      In the Discussion the authors state that the hydrophobic groove of PP1 is remodelled by Neurabin. However, details of this are not described or shown in the manuscript.

      The shared trajectory determined by the RVxF-øø-R-W string brings the sequences C-terminal to the W SLIM into the vicinity of the PP1 hydrophobic groove. In the Phactr1/PP1 holoenzyme this generates a novel pocket required for substrate recognition (Fedoryshchak et al, 2020). These observations raised the possibility that sequences C-terminal to the “W” motif in the other RVxF-øø-R-W PIPs also play a role in substrate recognition.

      Introduction paragraph 3 now cites a new Figure 1-S2, which shows how the hydrophobic groove is remodelled in the various different PIP/PP1 complexes. A revised Figure 1A now indicates the hydrophobic residues defining the hydrophobic groove by grey shading.

      (2) To add to the confidence of the structure, the authors should include a 2Fo-Fc simulated annealing omit map, perhaps showing the R and W interactions of the RVxF-øø-R-W string.

      This is now included as new Figure 6 Figure supplement 1. Note that in Neurabin, the W motif is VDP, where the valine and proline sidechains interact similarly to the tryptophan (see also new Figure 1-S2G,H).

      We also add a new supplementary Figure 6-S1 comparing our PBM-liganded Neurabin PDZ domain with the previously published unliganded structure (Ragusa et al 2010).

      (3) Page 16. The authors state that spinophilin remodels the PP1 hydrophobic groove differently from Phactrs. Arguably spinophilin does not remodel the PP1 hydrophobic groove at all. There are no contacts between spinophilin and the PP1 hydrophobic groove in the spinophilin-PP1 structure, correlating with the absence of 'W" in the RVxF-øø-R-W string in spinophilin.

      The VDP sequence corresponding to the W motif in spinophilin and neurabin makes analogous contacts to those made by the W in Phactr1 (see Fedoryshchak et al 2020).

      Remodelling is meant in the sense of altering the structure of the major groove by bringing new sequences into its vicinity rather than necessarily directly interacting with it. The spinophilin/PP1 and Phactr/PP1 hydrophobic grooves are compared in new Figure 1-S2 (see also Fedoryshchak et al 2020, Figure 2 figure supplement 1)

      (4) Page 8. For the cell-based/proteomics-dephosphorylation assay in Figure 2, it isn't clear why there were no dephosphorylation sites detected for the PPP1R15A/B-PP1 fusion (except PPP6R1 S531 for PPP1R15B). One might have expected a correlation with PP1 alone. Does this imply that PPP1R15A/B are inhibiting PP1 catalytic activity? Was the activity tested in vitro?

      The R15A/B data are compared to average abundance of all the phosphosites in the dataset, including those of PP1.

      We have not tested for a general inhibitory effect of R15A/B on PP1 activity. Many PIPs including R15A/B do occlude one or more of the PP1 substrate groove and therefore generally act as inhibitors of PP1 activity against some potential substrates, while enhancing activities against others.

      Other points 

      (4) Figure S1: Colour sequence similarities/identities.

      Done

      (6) Figures: Structure figures lacked labels:

      Figure 1A, label PP1, Phactrs etc.

      Done

      Figure 6, label PP1, Neurabin, previous Neurabin structure (Fig. 6C), hydrophobic groove, PDZ domain, etc.

      Done

      (7) Statistical analysis. p values should be shown for data in:

      Figure 5.

      To avoid cluttering the Figure, a new sheet, “statistical significance” has been added to Supplementary Table 3, summarizing the analysis.

      Figure 1.

      Figure amended (now figure 1-S1).

      (8) Some inconsistency with labels, eg '34-WT' used in Fig. 5C, whereas '34A-WT' (better) in Methods.

      Now changed to 34A etc where used.

      (9) Page 6. PPP1R9A/B is not shown in Figure 1A and Figure S1A.

      PPP1R9A/B are Neurabin and spinophilin - now clarified in Introduction paragraph 2, Results paragraph 1, Discussion paragraph 1.

      (10) Page 7: lines 4, 'site' not 'side'.

      Done

      (11) Page 9: DTL and CAMSAP3 were found to be dephosphorylated in the PP1-Neurabin/spinophilin screen. Are these PDZ-binding proteins?

      Neither DTL nor CAMSAP3 contain C-terminal hydrophobic residues characteristic of classical PBMs. Sentence added in Discussion, paragraph 5

      (12) Page 12 and Figure 5 and S5: The synthetic p4E-BP1 and IRSp53WT peptides with PBM should be given more specific names to indicate the presence of the PBM.

      We have renamed 4E-BP1<sup>WT</sup> and IRSp53<sup>WT</sup> to 4E-BP1<sup>PBM</sup> and  IRSp53<sup>PBM</sup> respectively, emphasising the inclusion of the wildtype or mutated PBM from 4E-BP1 on these peptides.

      Text, Figure 5, and Figure S5 all revised accordingly.

      (13) Give PDB code for spinophilin-PP1 complex coordinates shown in Figure 6C.

      PDB codes for the various PIP/PP1 complexes now given in new Figure 1-S2 and revised Figure 6C.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The work undertaken by the authors is extensive and robust, however, I believe that some improvement in the writing and some detailed explanation of certain results sections would help with the presentation of the work and clarity for the readers.

      (1) The introduction should contain more information about the interaction between PP1 and Neurabin, given that this is the focus of the paper. This would give the reader the necessary background required to follow the paper.

      Introduction paragraph 2 revised to describe the different SLIMs in more detail. New Figure 1-S2 shows detail of the different remodelled hydrophobic grooves in the various PIP/PP1 complexes.

      (2) More information on PP1-IRSp53L460A has to be added before discussing results in S1B.

      Sentence explaining that IRSp53 L460 docks with the remodelled PP1 hydrophobic groove in the Phactr1/PP1 holoenzyme added in Results paragraph 2.

      (3) Page 6: "as expected, the +5 residue L460A mutation, which impairs dephosphorylation by the intact Phactr1/PP1 holoenzyme, impaired sensitivity to all the fusions, indicating that they recognise phosphorylated IRSp53 in a similar way (Figure S1B)". Statistics between IRSp53 and IRSp53L460A across PP1-PIPs need to be conducted before concluding the above. From the graph and the images, the impairment to dephosphorylation is not convincing.

      For each of the four PP1-Phactr fusions, the IRSp53 L460A peptide shows significantly less reactivity than the IRSp53WT peptide (p<0.05 for each fusion).

      Since the proteomics studes in Figure 2 show that the substrate specificity of the four PP1-Phactr1 fusions is virtually identical, we combined the data for the four different fusions. The IRSp53 L460A peptide shows significantly less reactivity than the IRSp53WT peptide in this analysis (p< 0.0001). This result shown in revised Figure S1B and legend.

      (4) mCherry-4E-BP1(118+A), in which an additional C-terminal alanine should still allow TOSmediated phosphorylation, but prevent PDZ interaction. Does 4EBP1 (118+A) actually prevent interaction between PP1-Neurabin? This interaction needs to be validated, especially since spinophilin was shown to bind to multiple regions of PP1.

      It is not clear what the referee is asking for here. The biochemical analysis in Figure 4C shows that the C-terminus of 4E-BP1 constitutes a classical PBM. The X-ray crystallography in Figure 6 confirms this, demonstrating H-bond interactions between the 4E-BP1 C-terminal carboxylate and main chain amides of L514, G515 and I516.

      We consider the possibility that the 4E-BP1(118+A) mutant inhibits the activity of PP1-neurabin via a mechanism other than direct blocking 4E-BP1 / PDZ interaction to be unlikely for the following reasons:

      (1) Addition of a C-terminal alanine will disrupt the PBM interaction because the extra residue sterically blocks access to the PBM-binding groove. This is the most parsimonious explanation, and is based on our solid structural and biochemical evidence that the 4E-BP1 C-terminus is a classical PBM.

      (2) Alphafold3 modelling predicts Neurabin PDZ / 4E-BP1 PBM interaction with high confidence (shown in Figure 6-S2E), but it does not predict any PDZ interaction with 4E-BP1(118+A). Note added in Figure 6-S2 legend.

      (3) Recognition of the 4E-BP1(118+A) mutation without loss of binding affinity would require that the mutant becapable of binding formally equivalent to recognition of an “internal” PDZ-binding peptide. Recognition of such “internal peptides” is dependent on their adopting a specifically constrained conformation, which typically requires reorganisation of the PDZ carboxylate-binding GLGF loop. Such “internal site” recognition typically involves more than one residue C-terminal to the conventional PDZ “0” position (see Penkert et al NSMB 2004, doi:10.1038/nsmb839; Gee et al JBC 1998, DOI: 10.1074/jbc.273.34.21980; Hillier et al 1999, Science PMID: 10221915).

      (5) It is nice to see that the various PP1-Phactr fusions have around 60% substrate overlap between them. Would it be possible to compare these results with previously published mass spec data of Phactr1XXX from the group? There is mention of some substrates being picked up, but a comparison much like in Figure 2E would be more informative about the extent to which the described method captures relevant information.

      This is difficult to do directly as the PP1-Phactr fusion data are from human cells while that in Fedoryshchak et al 2020 is from mouse.

      However, manual curation shows that of the 28 top hits seen in our previous analysis of Phactr1XXX in NIH3T3 cells, 18 were also detectable in the HEK293 system; of these, 13 were also detected as as PP1-Phactr fusion hits. Data summarised in new Figure 2-S1C. Text amended in Results, “Proteomic analysis...”, paragraph 2.

      (6) Figure 3D Why are the levels of pT70, pT37/46 and total protein in vector controls much lower as compared to 0nM Tet in PP1-Neurabin conditions? It is also weird that given total protein is so low, why are the pS65/101 levels high compared to the rest?

      We think it likely these phenomena reflect a low level expression of PP1-Neurabin expression in uninduced cells. Now noted in Figure 3D legend, basal PP1-Neurabin expression shown in new Figure 3-S1C. This alters the relative levels of the different species detected by the total 4E-BP1 antibody in favour of the faster migrating forms, which are less phosphorylated than the slower ones, and the total amount increases about 2-fold (Figure 3D, compare 0nM Tet lanes).

      The altered p65/101-pT70 ratio is also likely to reflect the leaky PP1-Neurabin expression, since the relative intensities of the various phosphorylated species are dependent on both the relative rates of phosphorylation and dephosphorylation. Expression of a phosphatase would therefore be expected to differentially affect the phosphorlyation levels of different sites according to their reactivity.

      (7) Figure 3E: Does inhibiting mTORC further reduce translation when PP1-Neurabin is expressed? If this is the case, this might suggest that they might not necessarily be mTORC inhibitors?

      We have not done this experiment. Since Rapamycin cannot be guaranteed to completely block 4E-BP1 phosphorylation, and PP1-Neurabin cannot be guaranteed to completely dephosphorylate 4E-BP1, any further reduction upon their combination would be hard to interpret.

      (8) Substrate interactions with the remodelled PP1 hydrophobic groove do not affect PP1-Neurabin specificity. Is there evidence that PP1-Neurabin remodels the hydrophobic groove? Is it not possible that Neurabin does not remodel the PP1 groove to begin with and hence there is no effect observed with the various mutants? If this is not the case, it should be explained in a bit more detail.

      Comparison of the Neurabin/PP1 and Phactr1/PP1 structures shows that the hydrophobic groove is remodelled differently in the two complexes. Now shown in new Figure 1-S2B,C,G.

      (9) Figure 5B has a lot of interesting information, which I believe has not been discussed at all in the results section.

      To help interpretation of the enzymology in Figure 5 we have renamed 4E-BP1WT and IRSp53WT to 4E-BP1PBM and IRSp53PBM respectively, emphasising the inclusion of the wildtype or mutated PBM from 4E-BP1 on these peptides. Text in Results, “PDZ domain interaction…”, paragraph 1, and Figures 5 and S5 revised accordingly.

      Why does the 4E-BP1Mut affect catalytic efficiency of PP1 alone when compared with WT, while no difference is observed with IRSp53WT and mutant?

      We do not understand the basis for the differential reactivity of 4E-BP1PBM and 4E-BP1MUT with PP1 alone; we suspect that it reflects the hydrophobicity change resulting from the MDI -> SGS substitution. However this is unlikely to be biologically significant as PP1 is sequestered in PIP-PP1 complexes.

      Importantly, the two PP1 fusion proteins behave consistently in this assay – the presence of the intact PBM increases reactivity with PP1-Neurabin, but has no effect on dephosphorylation by PP1-Phactr1.

      Why does PP1 alone not have a difference between IRSp53WT and mutant, while PP1-Neurabin does have a difference?

      This is due to the presence of the PBM in IRSp53WT (now renamed IRSp53PBM), which affects increases affinity for PP1 Neurabin, but not PP1 alone. Likewise, PP1-Phactr1, which does not possess a PDZ domain, is also unaffected by the integrity of the PBM.

      (7) “Strikingly, alanine substitutions at +1 and +2 in 4E-BP1WT increased catalytic efficiency by both fusions, perhaps reflecting changes at the catalytic site itself (Figure 5E, Figure S5E)”. This could be expanded upon, because this suggests a mechanism that makes the substrate refractory to PDZ/hydrophobic groove remodelling?

      We favour the idea that this reflects a requirement to balance dephosphorylation rates between the multiple 4E-BP1 phosphorylation sites, especially if multiple rounds of dephosphorylation occur for each PBM—PDZ interaction. Additional sentences added in Discussion paragraph 7.

      (8) Typographical errors and minor comments:

      a) PIPs can target PP1 to specific subcellular locations, and control substrate specificity through autonomous substrate-binding domains, occupation or extension of the substrate grooves, or modification of PP1 surface electrostatics.

      b) Phosphophorylation side site abundances within triplicate samples from the same cell line were comparable between replicates (Figure 2B).

      c) While the alanine substitutions had little effect, conversion of +4 to +6 to the IRSp534E-BP1 sequence LLD increased catalytic efficiency some 20-fold (Figure 5C, Figure S5C). 

      d) Figure 3E labels are not clear. The graph can be widened to make the labels of the conditions clearer.

      All corrected

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      This was a very well-written manuscript.

      However, I was looking for a summary mechanistic figure or cartoon to help me navigate the results.

      I noted a few typos in the text.

      New summary Figure 5-S2 added, cited in results, and discussed in Discussion paragraph 6,7.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This article presents a meta-analysis that challenges established abundance-occupancy relationships (AORs) by utilizing the largest known bird observation database. The analysis yields contentious outcomes, raising the question of whether these findings could potentially refute AORs.

      We thank the Reviewer for their positive comments.

      Strengths:

      The study employed an extensive aggregation of datasets to date to scrutinize the abundance-occupancy relationships (AORs).

      We thank the Reviewer for their positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      While the dataset employed in this research holds promise, a rigorous justification of the core assumptions underpinning the analytical framework is inadequate. The authors should thoroughly address the correlation between checklist data and global range data, ensuring that the foundational assumptions and potential confounding factors are explicitly examined and articulated within the study's context.

      We thank the Reviewer for these comments. We agree that more justification and transparency is needed of the core assumptions that form the foundation of our methods. In our revised version, we have taken the following steps to achieve this:

      - Altered the title to be more explicit about the core assumptions, which now reads: “Local-scale relative abundance is decoupled from global range size”

      - We have added more details on why and how we treat global range size as a measure of ‘occupancy.’

      - We have added a section that discusses the limitations of using eBird relative abundance

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The goal is to ask if common species when studied across their range tend to have larger ranges in total. To do this the authors examined a very large citizen science database which gives estimates of numbers, and correlated that with the total range size, available from Birdlife. The average correlation is positive but close to zero, and the distribution around zero is also narrow, leading to the conclusion that, even if applicable in some cases, there is no evidence for consistent trends in one or other direction.

      We thank the Reviewer for these comments.

      Strengths:

      The study raises a dormant question, with a large dataset.

      We thank the Reviewer for these comments. We intended to take a longstanding question and attempt to apply novel datasets that were not available mere decades ago. While we do not imply that we have ‘solved’ the question, we hope this work highlights the potential for further interrogation using these large datasets.

      Weaknesses:

      This study combines information from across the whole world, with many different habitats, taxa, and observations, which surely leads to a quite heterogeneous collection.

      We agree that there is a heterogeneous collection of data across many habitats, taxa, and observations. However, rather than as a weakness, we see this as a significant strength. Our work assumes we are averaging over this variability to assess for a large-scale pattern in the relationship - something that was potentially a limitation of previous work, as these large datasets were often focused on particular contexts (e.g., much work focused solely on the UK), which we believe could limit some of the generalizability of the previous work. However, the reviewer makes a fair point in regard to the heterogeneity of data collection. We have now added some text in the discussion which is explicit about this - see the new section named “Potential limitations of current work and future work –-although our findings challenge some long-held assumptions about the consistency of the abundance-occupancy relationship, our work only deals with interspecific AORs among birds, synthesizing observations of potentially heterogeneous locations, context and quality”.

      First, scale. Many of the earlier analyses were within smaller areas, and for example, ranges are not obviously bounded by a physical barrier. I assume this study is only looking at breeding ranges; that should be stated, as 40% of all bird species migrate, and winter limitation of populations is important. Also are abundances only breeding abundances or are they measured through the year? Are alien distributions removed?

      Second, consider various reasons why abundance and range size may be correlated (sometimes positively and sometimes negatively) at large scales. Combining studies across such a large diversity of ecological situations seems to create many possibilities to miss interesting patterns. For example:

      (1) Islands are small and often show density release.

      See comment below.

      (2) North temperate regions have large ranges (Rapoport's rule) and higher population sizes than the tropics.

      See comment below.

      (3) Body size correlates with global range size (I am unsure if this has recently been tested but is present in older papers) and with density. For example, cosmopolitan species (barn owl, osprey, peregrine) are relatively large and relatively rare.

      See comment below.

      (4) In the consideration of alien species, it certainly looks to me as if the law is followed, with pigeon, starling, and sparrow both common and widely distributed. I guess one needs to make some sort of statement about anthropogenic influences, given the dramatic changes in both populations and environments over the past 50 years.

      See comment below. We also added a sentence in the methods that highlighted we did not remove alien ranges and provided reasons why. Still, we do acknowledge the dramatic changes in populations and environments over the past 50 years (see the new section  “Potential limitations of current work and futur work”)

      (5) Wing shape correlates with ecological niche and range size (e.g. White, American Naturalist). Aerial foraging species with pointed wings are likely to be easily detected, and several have large ranges reflecting dispersal (e.g. barn swallow).

      We agree that all of the points above are interesting data explorations. As said above, our main purpose was to highlight the potential for further interrogation using these large datasets. However, we have added some additional text in the discussion that explicitly mentions/encourages these additional data explorations. We hope people will pick up on the potential for these data and explore them further.

      Third, biases. I am not conversant with ebird methodology, but the number appearing on checklists seems a very poor estimate of local abundance. As noted in the paper, common species may be underestimated in their abundance. Flocking species must generate large numbers, skulking species few. The survey is often likely to be in areas favorable to some species and not others. The alternative approach in the paper comes from an earlier study, based on ebird but then creating densities within grids and surely comes with similar issues.

      We agree that if we were interested in the absolute abundance of a given species, the local number on an eBird checklist would be a poor representation. However, our study aims not to estimate absolute abundance but to examine relative abundance among species on each checklist. By focusing on relative abundance, we leverage eBird data's strengths in detecting the presence and frequency of species across diverse locations and times, thereby capturing community composition trends that can provide meaningful insights despite individual checklist biases. This approach allows us to assess the comparative prominence of species in the community as reported by the observer, providing a consistent metric of relative abundance. Despite detectability biases, the structure of eBird checklists reflects the observer’s encounter rates with each species under similar conditions, offering a valuable snapshot of relative species composition across sites and times. The key to our assumption is that these biases discussed are not directional and, therefore, random throughout the sampling process, which would translate to no ‘real’ bias in our effect size of interest.

      Range biases are also present. Notably, tropical mountain-occupying species have range sizes overestimated because holes in the range are not generally accounted for (Ocampo-Peñuela et al., Nature Communications). These species are often quite rare, too.

      We thanks the reviewer for pointing to this issue and reference. We included a discussion on these biases in our limitations section and reference Ocampo-Peñuela et al. to emphasize the need for improved spatial resolution in range data for more accurate AOR assessments.”More precise range-size estimates would also improve the accuracy of AOR assessments, since species range data are often overestimated due to the failure to capture gaps in actual distributions ”

      Fourth, random error. Random error in ebird assessments is likely to be large, with differences among observers, seasons, days, and weather (e.g. Callaghan et al. 2021, PNAS). Range sizes also come with many errors, which is why occupancy is usually seen as the more appropriate measure.

      If we consider both range and abundance measurements to be subject to random error in any one species list, then the removal of all these errors will surely increase the correlation for that list (the covariance shouldn't change but the variances will decrease). I think (but am not sure) that this will affect the mean correlation because more of the positive correlations appear 'real' given the overall mean is positive. It will definitely affect the variance of the correlations; the low variance is one of the main points in the paper. A high variance would point to the operation of multiple mechanisms, some perhaps producing negative correlations (Blackburn et al. 2006).

      We agree random errors can affect estimates, but as we wrote above, random errors, regardless of magnitudes, would not bias estimates. After accounting for sampling error (a part of random errors), little variance is left to be explained as we have shown in the MS. This suggests that many of the random errors were part of the sampling errors. And this is where meta-analysis really shines.

      On P.80 it is stated: "Specifically, we can quantify how AOR will change in relation to increases in species richness and sampling duration, both of which are predicted to reduce the magnitude of AORs" I haven't checked the references that make this statement, but intuitively the opposite is expected? More species and longer durations should both increase the accuracy of the estimate, so removing them introduces more error? Perhaps dividing by an uncertain estimate introduces more error anyway. At any rate, the authors should explain the quoted statement in this paper.

      It would be of considerable interest to look at the extreme negative and extreme positive correlations: do they make any biological sense?

      Extremely high correlations would not make any biological sense if these observations were based on large sample sizes. However, as shown in Figure 2, all extreme correlations come from small sample sizes (i.e., low precision), as sampling theory expects (actually our Fig 2 a text-book example of the funnel shape). Therefore, we do not need to invoke any biological explanations here.

      Discussion:

      I can see how publication bias can affect meta-analyses (addressed in the Gaston et al. 2006 paper) but less easily see how confirmation bias can. It seems to me that some of the points made above must explain the difference between this study and Blackburn et al. 2006's strong result.

      We agree. Now, we extended an explanation of why confirmation bias could result in positive AOR. Yet, we point out confirmation bias is a very common phenomena which we cite relevant citations in the original MS. The only way to avoid confirmation bias is to conduct a study blind but this is not often possible in ecological work.

      “Meta-research on behavioural ecology identified 79 studies on nestmate recognition, 23 of which were conducted blind. Non-blind studies confirmed a hypothesis of no aggression towards nestmates nearly three times more often. It is possible that confirmation bias was at play in earlier AOR studies.”

      Certainly, AOR really does seem to be present in at least some cases (e.g. British breeding birds) and a discussion of individual cases would be valuable. Previous studies have also noted that there are at least some negative and some non-significant associations, and understanding the underlying causes is of great interest (e.g. Kotiaho et al. Biology Letters).

      We agree. And yes, we pointed out these in our introduction.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper claims to overturn the longstanding abundance occupancy relationship.

      Strengths:

      (1) The above would be important if true.

      (2) The dataset is large.

      We have clarified this point by changing the title to emphasize that we do not suggest overturning AORs entirely but instead provide a refined view of the relationship at a global scale. Our results suggest a weaker and more context-dependent AOR than previously documented. We hope our revised title and additional clarifications in the text convey our intent to contribute to a more nuanced understanding rather than a whole overturning of the AOR framework.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors are not really measuring the abundance-occupancy relationship (AOR). They are measuring abundance-range size. The AOR typically measures patches in a metapopulation, i.e. at a local scale. Range size is not an interchangeable notion with local occupancy.

      We have refined this in our revision to be more explicitly focused on global range size. However, we note that the classic paper by Bock and Richlefs (1983, Am Nat) also refers to global (species entire) range size in the context of the AOR. Importantly, Bock and Richlefs pointed out the importance of using species’ entire ranges; without such uses, there will be sampling artifacts creating positive AORs when using arbitrary geographical ranges, which were used in some studies of AORs. So we highlight that our work is well in line with the previous work, allowing us to question the longstanding macroecological work. One of the issues of AOR has been how to define occupancy and global range size, which provides a relatively ambiguous measure, which is why we used this measure.

      (2) Ebird is a poor dataset for this. The sampling unit is non-standard. So abundance can at best be estimated by controlling for sampling effort. Comparisons across space are also likely to be highly heterogenous. They also threw out checklists in which abundances were too high to be estimated (reported as "X"). As evidence of the biases in using eBird for this pattern, the North American Breeding Bird Survey, a very similar taxonomic and geographic scope but with a consistent sampling protocol across space does show clear support for the AOR.

      Yes, we agree the sampling unit is non-standard. However, this is a significant strength in that it samples across much heterogeneity (as discussed in response to Reviewer 2, above). We were interested in relative abundance and not direct absolute abundance per se, which is accurate, especially since we did control for sampling effort.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s attention to our data selection criteria. We excluded checklists containing ‘X’ entries to minimize biases in our abundance estimates. The 'X' notation is often used for the most common species, reflecting the observer's identification of presence without specifying a count. This approach was chosen to avoid disproportionately inflating presence data for these abundant species, which could distort the relative abundance calculations in our analysis. By excluding such checklists, we aimed to retain consistency and ensure that local abundance estimates were representative across all species on each checklist. We have revised our manuscript to clarify this methodological choice and hope this explanation addresses the reviewer’s concern. We modified our text in the methods to make the entries ‘X’ clearer (see the Method section).

      (3) In general, I wonder if a pattern demonstrated in thousands of data sets can be overturned by findings in one data set. It may be a big dataset but any biases in the dataset are repeated across all of those observations.

      Overturning a major conclusion requires careful work. This paper did not rise to this level.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s caution regarding broad conclusions based on a single dataset, even one as large as eBird. Our intention was not to definitively overturn the abundance-occupancy relationship (AOR) but to re-evaluate it with the most extensive and globally representative dataset currently available. We recognise that potential biases in citizen science data, such as observer variation, may influence our findings, and we have taken steps to address these in our methodology and limitations sections. We see this work as a contribution to an ongoing discourse, suggesting that AOR may be less universally consistent than previously believed, mainly when tested with large-scale citizen science data. We hope this study will encourage additional research that tests AORs using other expansive datasets and approaches, further refining our understanding of this classic macroecological relationship. However, we have left our broad message about instigating credible revolution and also re-examining ecological laws.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The investigation focuses solely on interspecific relationships among birds; thus, the extrapolation of these conclusions to broader ecological contexts requires further validation.

      We have now added this point to our new section: “Although our findings challenge some long-held assumptions about the consistency of the abundance-occupancy relationship, our work only deals with interspecific AORs among birds, so we hope this work serves as a foundation for further investigations that utilize such comprehensive datasets.”

      (2) The rationale for combining data from eBird - a platform predominantly representing individual observations from urban North America - with the more globally comprehensive BirdLife International database needs to be substantiated. The potential underrepresentation of global abundance in the eBird checklist data could introduce a sampling bias, undermining the foundational premises of AORs.

      We agree with the limitation of ebird sampling coverage, but it should not bias our results. In statistical definitions, bias is directional, and if not directional, it will become statistical noise, making it difficult to detect the signal. In fact, our meta-analyses adjust what statisticians call sampling bias and it is the strength of meta-analysis.

      (3) In the full mixed-effect model, checklist duration and sampling variance (inversely proportional to sample size N) are treated as fixed effects. However, these variables are likely to be negatively correlated, which could introduce multicollinearity, inflating standard errors and diminishing the statistical significance of other factors, such as the intercept. This calls into question the interpretation of insignificance in the results.

      Multicollinearity is an issue with sample sizes. For example, with small datasets, correlations of 0.5 could be an issue, and such an issue would usually show up as a large SE. We do not have such an issue with ~ 17 million data points. Please refer to this paper.

      Freckleton, Robert P. "Dealing with collinearity in behavioural and ecological data: model averaging and the problems of measurement error." Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology 65 (2011): 91-101.

      (4) The observed low heterogeneity may stem from discrepancies in sampling for abundance versus occupancy, compounded by uncertainties in reporting behavior.

      If we assume everybody underreports common species or overreports rare species, this could happen. However, such an assumption is unlikely. If some people report accurately (but not others), we should see high heterogeneity, which we do not observe).  We have touched upon this point in our original MS.

      (5) The contribution and implementation of phylogenetic comparative analysis remain ambiguous and were not sufficiently clarified within the study.

      We need to add more explanation for the global abundance analysis

      “To statistically test whether there was an effect of abundance and occupancy at the macro-scale, we used phylogenetic comparative analysis.  This analysis also addresses the issue of positive interspecific AORs potentially arising from not accounting for phylogenetic relatedness among species examined ”

      (6) The use of large N checklists could skew the perceived rarity or commonality of species, potentially diminishing the positive correlation observed in AORs. A consistent observer effect could lead to a near-zero effect with high precision.

      Regardless of the number of N species in checklists (seen in Fig 2), correlations are distributed around zero. This means there is nothing special about large N checklists. 

      (7) The study should acknowledge and discuss any discrepancies or deviations from previous literature or expected outcomes.

      We felt we had already done this as we discussed the previous meta-analysis and what we expected from this meta-analysis.  Nevertheless, we have added some relevant sentences in the new version of MS.

      In addition to these major points, there are several minor concerns:

      (1) Figure 2B lacks discussion, and the metric for the number of observations is not clarified. Furthermore, the labeling of the y-axis appears to be incorrect.

      Thank you very much for pointing out this shortcoming. Now, the y-axis label has been fixed and we mention 2B in the main text.

      (2) The study should provide a clear, mathematical expression of the multilevel random effect models for greater transparency.

      Many thanks for this point, and now we have added relevant mathematical expressions in Table S6.

      (3) On Line 260, the term "number of species" should be refined to "number of species in a checklist," ideally represented by a formula for precision.

      This ambiguity has been mended as suggested.

      Please provide the data and R code linked to the outputs.

      The referee must have missed the link (https://github.com/itchyshin/AORs) in our original MS. In addition to our GitHub repository link, we now have added a link to our Zenodo repository (https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.14019900).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors cite Rabinowitz's 7 forms of rarity paper as a suggestion that previous findings also break the AOR. In fact empirical studies of the 7 forms of rarity typically find that all three forms of rareness vs commonness are heavily correlated (e.g. Yu & Dobson 2000).

      We thank the reviewer for drawing attention to Yu & Dobson (2000) and similar studies that find positive correlations among the axes of rarity. Ref 3 is correct in that Rabinowitz’s (1981) framework does not require that local abundance and geographic range size be uncorrelated for every species; instead, it highlights conceptual scenarios where a species may be common locally yet have a restricted distribution (or vice versa).

      Empirical analyses such as Yu & Dobson (2000) show that, on average, these axes can be correlated, which may align with conventional AOR findings in some taxonomic groups. However, Rabinowitz’s key insight was that exceptions do occur, so these exceptions demonstrate that strong positive AORs may not be universally applicable. Our results do not claim that Rabinowitz’s framework “breaks” the AOR outright; instead, we use it to underscore that local abundance can, in principle, be “decoupled” from global occupancy.  Whether the correlation found by Yu & Dobson (2000) implies a positive AOR, requires a detailed simulation study, which is an interesting avenue for future research. 

      Thus, citing Rabinowitz serves to highlight the potential heterogeneity and complexity of abundance–occupancy relationships rather than to refute every positive correlation reported in the literature. Our findings suggest that when examined at large spatiotemporal scales (with unbiased sampling), the overall AOR signal may be less robust than traditionally believed. This is consistent with Rabinowitz’s view that local abundance and global range can vary along independent axes. Now we added

      “Although studies using her framework found positive correlations between species range and local abundance.”

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper investigates the physical mechanisms underlying cell intercalation, which then enables collective cell flows in confluent epithelia. The authors show that T1 transitions (the topological transitions responsible for cell intercalation) correspond to the unbinding of groups of hexatic topological defects. Defect unbinding, and hence cell intercalation and collective cell flows, are possible when active stresses in the tissue are extensile. This result helps to rationalize the observation that many epithelial cell layers have been found to exhibit extensile active nematic behavior.

      Strengths:

      The authors obtain their results based on a combination of active hexanematic hydrodynamics and a multiphase field (MPF) model for epithelial layers, whose connection is a strength of the paper. With the hydrodynamic approach, the authors find the active flow fields produced around hexatic topological defects, which can drive defect unbinding. Using the MPF simulations, the authors show that T1 transitions tend to localize close to hexatic topological defects.

      Weaknesses:

      Citations are sometimes not comprehensive. Cases of contractile behavior found in collective cell flows, which would seemingly contradict some of the authors' conclusions, are not discussed.

      I encourage the authors to address the comments and questions below.

      (1) In Equation 1, what do the authors mean by the cluster's size \ell? How is this quantity defined? The calculations in the Methods suggest that \ell indicates the distance between the p-atic defects and the center of the T1 cell cluster, but this is not clearly defined.

      (2) The multiphase field model was developed and reviewed already, before the Loewe et al. 2020 paper that the authors cite. Earlier papers include Camley et al. PNAS 2014, Palmieri et al. Sci. Rep. 2015, Mueller et al. PRL 2019, and Peyret et al. Biophys. J. 2019, as reviewed in Alert and Trepat. Annu. Rev. Condens. Matter Phys. 2020.

      (3) At what time lag is the mean-squared displacement in Figure 3f calculated? How does the choice of a lag time affect these data and the resulting conclusions?

      (4) The authors argue that their results provide an explanation for the extensile behavior of cell layers. However, there are also examples of contractile behavior, such as in Duclos et al., Nat. Phys., 2017 and in Pérez-González et al., Nat. Phys., 2019. In both cases, collective cell flows were observed, which in principle require cell intercalations. How would these observations be rationalized with the theory proposed in this paper? Can these experiments and the theory be reconciled?

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:

      This manuscript uses a well-validated behavioral estimation task to investigate how optimistic belief updating was attenuated during the 2020 global pandemic. Online participants recruited during and outside of the pandemic estimated how likely different negative life events were to happen to them in the future and were given statistics about these events happening. Belief updating (measured as the degree to which estimations changed after viewing the statistics) was less optimistically biased during the pandemic (compared to outside of it). This resulted from reduced updating from "good news" (better than expected information). Computational models were used to try to unpack how statistics were integrated and used to revise beliefs. Two families of models were compared - an RL set of models where "estimation errors" (analogous to prediction errors in classic RL models) predict belief change and a Bayesian set of models where an implied likelihood ratio was calculated (derived from participants estimations of their own risk and estimation of the base rate risk) and used to predict belief change. The authors found evidence that the former set of models accounted for updating better outside of the pandemic, but the latter accounted for updating during the pandemic. In addition, the RL model provides evidence that learning was asymmetrically positively biased outside of the pandemic but symmetric during it (as a result of reduced learning rates from good news estimation errors).

      Strengths:

      Understanding whether biases in learning are fixed modes of information processing or flexible and adapt in response to environmental shocks (like a global pandemic or economic recession) is an important area of research relevant to a wide range of fields, including cognitive psychology, behavioral economics, and computational psychiatry. The study uses a well-validated task, and the authors conduct a power analysis to show that the sample sizes are appropriate. Furthermore, the authors test that their results hold in both a between-group analysis (the focus of the main paper) and a within-group analysis (mainly in the supplemental).

      The finding that optimistic biases are reduced in response to acute stress, perceived threat, and depression has been shown before using this task both in the lab (social stress manipulation), in the real world (firefighters on duty), and clinical groups (patients with depression). However, the work does extend these findings here in important ways:

      (1) Examining the effect of a new real-world adverse event (the pandemic).<br /> (2) The reduction in optimistic updating here arises due to reduced updating from positive information (previously, in the case of environmental threat, this reduction mainly arose from increased sensitivity to negative information).<br /> (3) Leveraging new RL-inspired computational approaches, demonstrating that the bias - and its attenuation - can be captured using trial-by-trial computational modeling with separate learning rates for positive and negative estimation errors.

      Weaknesses:

      Some interpretation and analysis (the computational modeling in particular) could be improved.

      On the interpretation side, while the pandemic was an adverse experience and stressful for many people (including myself), the absence of any measures of stress/threat levels limits the conclusions one can draw. Past work that has used this task to examine belief updating in response to adverse environmental events took physiological (e.g., SCR, cortisol) and/or self-report (questionnaires) measures of mood. In SI Table 1, the authors possibly had some questionnaire measures along these lines, but this might be for the participants tested during the pandemic.

      Thank you for this review.

      We agree that the lack of physiological and self-report measures of stress, threat, and perceived uncertainty limits the interpretation of findings regarding potential psychological factors. Some self-reported anxiety and perceived risk measures experienced during the lockdowns were collected in a subset of participants (n=40, counting n=21 tested before and during the 1st strict lockdown, and n=19 tested solely during the 1st lockdown). These reports were given retrospectively at the time of release of the 1st lockdown in summer 2020 when the pandemic was still unfolding (SI Table 1).

      Exploratory correlations revealed some noteworthy trends. We found that participants who reported to have perceived a bigger risk of death due to contagion were also those who were less optimistically biased when updating their beliefs about adverse future life risks during the first strict COVID-19-related lockdown (Pearson’s r = -0.36, p = 0.02).

      Moreover, parameter estimates from the computational models of belief updating showed associations with specific survey responses: The rational Bayesian model’s scaling parameter correlated positively with adherence to distancing measures (r = 0.41, p = 0.01) and negatively with the need for social contact (r = -0.37, p = 0.02). This result indicated that participants who were updating their beliefs faster were more likely to follow preventive guidelines and felt less social craving. Meanwhile, the asymmetry parameter correlated negatively with mask wearing (r = -0.41, p = 0.01), positively with physical contact with close others (r = 0.32, p = 0.04) and satisfaction with social interactions (r = 0.33, p = 0.04). This suggests that participants who displayed some asymmetry in belief updating during the COVID-19 pandemic were less likely to comply with mask-wearing rules and more likely to engage in social interactions.

      However, these results did not survive correction for multiple comparisons and the sample size for correlational analyses is in the lower range. The subjective measures of anxiety and fear of contagion did not significantly correlate to the updating bias, or any other variable measured by the belief updating task (e.g. estimation error, updating magnitude).

      We now further discuss on page 12 the limitation, which reads:

      “We did not collect physiological measures of stress or information about the COVID-19 infection status of participants, which precludes a direct exploration of the immediate effects of experiencing the infection on belief-updating behavior and the potential interaction with anxiety and stress levels. Although subjective ratings of the perceived risk of death from COVID-19 correlated negatively to the beliefs updating bias measured during the pandemic, this result was obtained retrospectively in a subset of participants (SI section 4). We thus cannot directly attribute the observed lack of optimistically biased belief updating during the lockdown to psychological causes such as heightened anxiety and stress. This limitation is noteworthy, as the impact of experiencing the pandemic on belief updating about the future could differ between those who directly experienced infection and those who remained uninfected. It is also important to acknowledge that our study was timely and geographically limited to the context of the COVID-19 outbreak in France. Cultural variations and differences in governmental responses to contain the spread of SARS-CoV-2 may have impacted the optimism biases in belief updating differently.”

      On the analysis side, it was unclear what the motivation was for the different sets of models tested. Both families of models test asymmetric vs symmetric learning (which is the main question here) and have similar parameters (scaling and asymmetry parameters) to quantify these different aspects of the learning process. Conceptually, the different behavioral patterns one could expect from the two families of models needed to be clarified.

      Thank you for raising this point. We agree that a clearer conceptual distinction between the two model families can help strengthen the interpretation of our findings. We have added the following considerations to the introduction on pages 2–3, which now reads:

      “The underlying mechanism of optimistically biased belief updating involves an asymmetry in learning from positive and negative belief-disconfirming information[2,3,4], which can unfold in two ways following Reinforcement learning (RL) or Bayes rule[5].

      Conceptually, Reinforcement learning (RL) and Bayesian models of belief updating are complementary but make different assumptions about the hidden process humans may use to adjust their beliefs when faced with information that contradicts them. The RL models assume belief updating is proportional to the estimation error. The key idea of the estimation error expresses the difference between how much someone believes they will experience a future life event and the actual prevalence of the event in the general population. This difference can be positive or negative. A scaling and an asymmetry parameter quantify the propensity to consider the estimation error magnitude and its valence, respectively. These two free parameters form the learning rate, which indicates how fast and biased participants update their beliefs.

      In contrast, Bayesian models assume that following Bayes’ rule the posterior, updated belief is a new hypothesis, formed by pondering prior knowledge with new evidence. The prior knowledge consists in information about the prevalence of life events in the general population. The new evidence comprises various alternative hypotheses. It examines how likely a specific event is to occur or not occur for oneself, compared to the likelihood that it will happen or not happen to others. This probabilistic adjustment of beliefs about future life events can be considered as an approximation of a participant’s confidence in the future. The two free parameters of the Bayesian belief updating model scale how much the initial belief deviates from the updated, posterior belief (i.e., scaling parameter) and the propensity to consider the valence of this deviance (i.e., asymmetry parameter).

      Although RL-like and Bayesian updating models make different assumptions about the updating strategy, they are complementary and powerful formalizations of human reasoning. Both models provide insight into hidden, latent variables of the updating process. Most notably, the learning rate and its components, the scaling and asymmetry parameters, which can vary between individuals and contexts and, through this variance, offer possible explanations for the idiosyncrasy in belief-updating behavior and its cognitive biases. “

      Do the "winning" models produce the main behavioral patterns in Figure 1, and are they in some way uniquely able to do so, for instance? How would updating look different for an optimistic RL learner versus an optimistic Bayesian RL learner?

      We now show that the winning models can reproduce the main behavioral patterns (revised Figure 1b).

      Moreover, we plotted estimated and observed average belief updating for each participant (n=123) using the overall best-fitting asymmetrical RL-like updating model shown in SI Figure 6.

      Would the asymmetry parameter in the former be correlated with the asymmetry parameter in the latter? Moreover, crucially, would one be able to reliably distinguish the models from one another under the model estimation and selection criteria that the authors have used here (presenting robust model recovery could help to show this)?

      The asymmetry parameter estimated with the optimistically biased RL- and Bayesian models did correlate (r = 0.735; p < 0.001).

      However, we argue that while the observed updating behavior and estimated free parameters are similar for RL-like and Bayesian learners, the underlying assumed cognitive processes differed and are identifiable. To test this assumption, we have added a model recovery analysis now reported in the supplement section 2c and main manuscript’s methods section pages 24–25.

      As shown in SI Figure 5 confusion matrix, there is evidence for strong recovery of nearly all models, and importantly for the two winning models: the optimistically biased RL-like model and the rational Bayesian model of belief updating. This analysis thus rules out that the two model families were confused and mitigate concerns about the validity of the model selection.

      Note, one exception was observed. The RL-like and Bayesian updating models that assumed no scaling and asymmetry were best recovered by their respective models that estimated the asymmetry parameter. Many factors could explain this. For example, it could be that the models, which assumed asymmetry, but no scaling, may have captured some bias in updating due to noise generated by the zero parameter models.

      A justification is also needed to focus on the "RL-like updating model with an asymmetry and scaling learning rate component" in Figure 3. As I understand it, this model fits best outside of the pandemic, but another model - the Rational Bayesian Model - does worse (and does the best during the pandemic). What model best combines the groups (outside and inside the pandemic)?

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the need to justify our focus on the biased RL-like updating model in Figure 3. The model chosen for parameter comparison was selected based on a model comparison procedure conducted across all 12 models, including data from all participants (both those tested outside and during the pandemic, n=123). This model comparison revealed that Model 1 — the RL model with both asymmetry and scaling learning rate parameters estimated — provided the best fit across the entire dataset (Ef = 0.40, pxp = 0.99). As such, we focused on this model for parameter comparisons in Figure 3 to ensure consistency with the model comparison results and to interpret the parameters in the context of the overall best-fitting model. We added this information on top of the model parameter comparison results on page 8. Moreover, SI Figure 6 in the supplements shows how this model reproduces the observed belief updating in each of the 123 participants.

      Why do the authors use absolute belief updating (|UPD|) in the first linear mixed effects model (equation iv)? Since an update is calculated differently depending on whether information calls for an update in an upward or downward direction, I do not understand the need to do this (and it means that updates that go in the wrong direction - away from the information - are counted as positive)

      Thank you for driving our attention to this point. The ‘absolute belief updating’ note was incorrect, and we apologize for the confusion. To be precise, we did not use absolute updating values in our analyses. Belief updating was assumed on each trial to go either toward the base rate (e.g., Update = E2 – E1) for negative estimation errors or away from it for positive estimation errors (e.g., Update = E1 – E2). Updates that went in the wrong direction, further away from the base rate, were thus counted and included in the analysis with their negative sign. We have corrected this important point in equation iv of the methods section on page 19.

      Figure 4: The task schema does not show a confidence rating for base rates.

      Thank you for catching this. We have now added the confidence ratings for base rates to the task in Figure 4b in the revised version of the manuscript. We have furthermore corrected a typo in Figure 4a: The sample size for the group 3 tested in Mai 2021 now indicates 31.

      The authors report that base rates are uniformly distributed - this is quite different to other instances of the task where base rates are normally distributed (ideally around the midpoint of the scale). Why this deviation in the design?

      We used life events and base rates like those used in past studies of belief updating (Garrett and Sharot 2017, Sharot et al. 2011, Garrett et al. 2017, Korn et al. 2017), which were normal to uniformly distributed (W = 0.952, p = 0.088, Shapiro-Wilk test). The base rates ranged between 10% and 70%, with a mean of 40%. Participants rated their estimates between 3% and 77%, which ensured that for most likely (base rate = 70%) and most unlikely events (base rate = 10%) there was the same space (7%) to update beliefs toward the base rates. Moreover, all statistical models included the absolute estimation errors as a control for variance potentially explained by different estimation error magnitude[42,43]. We added this extra base rate information to the methods section’s task description on page 16.

      The task is comprised of only negative life events, which arguably this hinders the generalizability of the results. The authors could mention this as a limitation (there has been a significant quantity of debate about this point in relation to this task: see the work from Ulrike Hahn's lab).

      We have added a paragraph to the discussion page 13 to provide a rationale for using only adverse events. This paragraph now reads:

      “In this study we tested how actual adverse experiences affect the updating of negative future outlooks in healthy participants and in analogy to studies conducted in depressed patients[19,20,24] following the cognitive model of depression[37]. One open question is whether findings were specific to the adverse event framing[38,39,40]. We argue that under normal, non-adverse contexts belief updating should also be optimistically biased for positive life events, as shown by previous research[41,42]. However, how context such as experiencing a challenging or favorable situation influence the updating of beliefs about positive and negative outlooks remains an open question.”

      It would be useful to show the parameter recovery for all parameters (not just the learning rates) and the correlation between parameters (both in simulations and in the fitted parameters).

      We apologize for being unclear on this part. The models included two free parameters that were the components of the learning rates: The scaling and the asymmetry parameter. We now have added parameter recovery analyses for the scaling and asymmetry components of the learning rates for (1) the Bayesian model of belief updating during the pandemic, and (2) the RL-like model of belief updating outside the pandemic to the supplement (SI section 2b, SI Figure 4).

      Reviewer #2:

      The authors investigated how experiencing the COVID-19 pandemic affected optimism bias in updating beliefs about the future. They ran a between-subjects design testing for participants on cognitive tasks before, during, and after lifting the sanitary state of emergence during the pandemic. The authors show that optimism bias varied depending on the context in which it was tested. Namely, it disappeared during COVID-19 and re-emerged at the time of lift of sanitary emergency measures. Through advanced computational modeling, they are able to thoroughly characterize the nature of such alternations, pinpointing specific mechanisms underlying the lack of optimistic bias during the pandemic.

      Strengths pertain to the comprehensive assessment of the results via computational modeling and from a theoretical point of view to the notion that environmental factors can affect cognition. However, the relatively small sample size for each group is a limitation.

      Thank you for this review.

      We acknowledge that sample sizes in each group are lower, especially when breaking down the participant sample into four sub-samples tested in the different contexts. To mitigate concerns we checked the power of the observed context by valence interaction on belief updating. To this aim we simulated new belief updates using the parameters from the best fitting optimistic RL-like model of observed belief updating outside the pandemic, and the rational Bayesian model of observed belief updating during the pandemic. At each iteration we performed a linear mixed effects model analysis of the simulated belief updates[44] analogous to equation iv in the main text. The frequency across 1000 iterations with which the LMEs detected a significant interaction of valence by context on simulated belief updating was 75 %. This frequency indicates the power of the valence by context interaction on observed belief updating. In other words, false negatives were 25% likely, which meant type II errors of failing to reject the null hypothesis when the effect was there. We have added these extra analyses to the main manuscript’s results section page 4 and method’s section page 20.

      A major impediment interpreting of the findings is the need for additional measures. While the information on for example, risk perception or the need for social interaction was collected from participants during the pandemic, the fact that these could not be included in the analysis hinders the interpretation of findings, which is now generally based on data collected during the pandemic, for example, reporting increased stress. While authors suggest an interpretation in terms of uncertainty of real-life conditions it is currently difficult to know if that factor drove the effect. Many concurrent elements might have accounted for the findings. This limits understanding of the underlying mechanisms related to changes in optimism bias.

      We agree with the reviewer on the limitation arising from the lack of physiological and self-report measures of stress, threat, and perceived uncertainty. To address this point and a similar point raised by reviewer 1 we have added a section to the supplement (SI section 4) that now reports explorative correlations between questionnaire responses of subjective perceptions of risk and anxiety, behavior (e.g. mask wearing, social distancing) and belief updating measured during the 1st strict lockdown.

      We now also further discuss this limitation on page 12 of the main text’s discussion.

      I recommend that the authors spend more time on explaining the belief-updating task in the presentation of the experiment.

      Thank you for this advice. We now provide a clearer and more detailed description of the belief-updating task in the main manuscript’s methods section and have updated Figure 4b to display the confidence rating event in the task schema.

      The task description now reads:

      “As illustrated in Figure 4b, each of the 40 trials began with presenting an adverse life event. Participants estimated their own risk and the risk of someone else their age and gender. Then the base rate of the event occurring in the general population was displayed on the computer screen. Participants rated their confidence in the accuracy of the presented base rate. Finally, they re-estimated their risk for experiencing the event now informed by the base rate.”

      The experimental task seems to include a self-other dimension, which is completely disregarded in the analysis. It would be interesting to explore whether the effect of diluted optimism bias during the pandemic is specific to information about self vs. Other.

      We appreciate the reviewer's observation regarding the self-versus-other dimension in the belief updating task design. As now shown in SI Figure 2 the participants indeed displayed an optimism bias: They estimated that adverse events are more likely to happen to others than to themselves (ß = 3.02, SE = 0.86, t (232) = 3.53, p = 5.09e-04, 95% CI [1.33 – 4.71]; SI Figure 2; SI Table 18). This effect was observed overall participants. The pandemic context had no significant effect (ß = -1.91, SE = 3.00, t (232) = -0.64, p = 0.52, 95% CI [-7.82 – 4.00]; SI Table 18). Moreover, following previous studies of optimistically biased belief updating we tested the effect of estimation errors (EE) calculated on the difference between the estimate for someone else (eBR) and the base rate (BR), following: EE = eBR – BR[4,5,25,26]. When categorizing trials as good news or bad news based on this alternative EE calculation the context-by-EE valence interaction remained significant (SI Table 6).

      We conclude from these additional analyses that experiencing the pandemic specifically influenced belief updating but did not affect optimism biases in initial beliefs about the future.

      Please provide an English translation of the instructions for the task.

      We now provide an English translation of the task instructions in the Supplement section 5.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors describe a role of sumoylation at K81 in p66Shc which affects endothelial dysfunction. This explores a new mechanism for understanding the role of PTMs in cellular processes.

      Strengths:

      The experiments are well planned and the results are well represented.<br /> Vascular tonality experiments were carried out nicely, given the amount of time and effort one needs to put in to get clean results from these experiments.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The production of ROS has been measured in a very superficial way.<br /> The term "ROS" confers a plethora of chemical species which exerts different physiological effects on different cells and situations.<br /> Mitochondria through one of the source , but not the only source of ROS production. Only measuring ROS with mitosox do not reflect the cellular condition of ROS in a specific condition. I would suggest authors consider doing IF of oxidative stress specific markers , carbonyl group and also, maybe, Amplex red for determining average oxidative stress and ros production in the cells.<br /> (2) 8-OHG signal seems very confusing in Figure 7E. 8-ohg is supposed to be mainly in the nucleus and to some extent in mitochondria. The signal is very diffused in the images. I would suggest a higher magnification and better resolution images for 8-ohg. Also, the VWF signal is pretty weak whereas it should be strong given the staining is in aorta. Authors should redo the experiments.<br /> (3) PCA analysis is quite not clear. Why is there a convergence among the plots? Authors should explain. Also, I would suggest that the authors do the analysis done in Figure 8B again with R based packages. IPA, though being user-friendly, mostly does not yield meaningful results and the statistics carried out is not accurate. Authors should redo the analysis in R or Python whichever is suitable for them.<br /> (4) The MS analysis part seems pretty vague in methods. Please rewrite.

    2. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      (1) The production of ROS has been measured in a very superficial way.

      The term "ROS" confers a plethora of chemical species which exerts different physiological effects on different cells and situations.

      Mitochondria through one of the source, but not the only source of ROS production. Only measuring ROS with mitosox do not reflect the cellular condition of ROS in a specific condition. I would suggest authors consider doing IF of oxidative stress specific markers , carbonyl group and also, maybe, Amplex red for determining average oxidative stress and ros production in the cells.

      We agree with the reviewer that a detailed analysis of ROS production and its markers would strengthen the manuscript. Accordingly, we will perform the Amplex Red assay for Figure 1.

      (2) 8-OHG signal seems very confusing in Figure 7E. 8-ohg is supposed to be mainly in the nucleus and to some extent in mitochondria. The signal is very diffused in the images. I would suggest a higher magnification and better resolution images for 8-ohg. Also, the VWF signal is pretty weak whereas it should be strong given the staining is in aorta. Authors should redo the experiments.

      The reviewer’s comment is correct regarding the expected signal. We will repeat the assays. However, we would like to note that the flat morphology of the endothelial cell monolayer on the aortic surface may limit the visualization of subcellular signal differentiation when transversely sectioned.

      (3) PCA analysis is quite not clear. Why is there a convergence among the plots? Authors should explain. Also, I would suggest that the authors do the analysis done in Figure 8B again with R based packages. IPA, though being user-friendly, mostly does not yield meaningful results and the statistics carried out is not accurate. Authors should redo the analysis in R or Python whichever is suitable for them.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. We acknowledge the concern regarding the PCA analysis and the convergence observed in the plots. In the revised manuscript, we will revise our interpretation to clarify this observation.

      Additionally, we appreciate your suggestion to use R-based packages for pathway analysis. We will make efforts to regenerate the analysis presented in Figure 8B using R to enhance the statistical robustness and reproducibility of our results.

      (4) The MS analysis part seems pretty vague in methods. Please rewrite.

      We will revise the methods section to improve the legibility.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      All the experiments performed here are in overexpression background therefore, it would be crucial to show that p66Shc is SUMO2ylated at physiological levels.

      To address this concern, we will attempt to assess p66Shc-SUMO2 levels under physiological conditions. However, we would like to highlight a technical limitation: the currently available antibodies do not distinguish p66Shc from other isoforms, nor SUMO2 from SUMO3. Therefore, enriching for the endogenous p66Shc-SUMO2 adduct will require novel tools and techniques, which we are actively exploring.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      One notable weakness is that the link between the observed cellular changes and the ultimate in vivo phenotype remains only partially explored. While the authors successfully show that p66ShcK81R knockin mice are protected from endothelial dysfunction in a hyperlipidemic context, additional experiments characterizing the broader tissue-specific roles, or examining further endothelial assays in vivo, would strengthen the mechanistic conclusions. It would also be beneficial to see more direct evaluations of p66Shc subcellular localization in the protective knockin mice to complement the proteomic findings.

      That is an excellent suggestion. We will determine the tissue specific distribution of endogenous p66ShcK81R.

      Despite these gaps, the data broadly support the authors' main conclusions. The authors lay out a plausible mechanistic pathway for how hyperlipidemia and increased global SUMOylation can converge on the oxidative stress pathway to provoke vascular dysfunction.

      The likely impact of this work on the field is noteworthy. Beyond clarifying how a single post-translational modification event can influence the pathophysiology of endothelial cells, the study provides a model for investigating broader roles of SUMO2 in other cardiovascular conditions and highlights the importance of identifying additional SUMOylation sites and their downstream impact.

      In conclusion, by demonstrating the direct SUMOylation of p66Shc at lysine-81 and linking that modification to endothelial dysfunction in a hyperlipidemic mouse model, this paper offers valuable insights into how broadly acting post-translational modifiers can evoke specific pathological effects.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript assesses the utility of spatial image correlation spectroscopy (ICS) for measuring physiological responses to DNA damage. ICS is a long-established (~1993) method similar to fluorescence correlation spectroscopy, for deriving information about the fluorophore density that underlies the intensity distributions of images. The authors first provide a technical but fairly accessible background to the theory of ICS, then compare it with traditional spot-counting methods for its ability to analyze the characteristics of γH2AX staining. Based on the degree of aggregation (DA) value, the authors then survey other markers of DNA damage and uncover some novel findings, such as that RPA aggregation inversely tracks the sensitivity to PARP inhibitors of different cell lines.

      The need for a more objective and standardized tool for analyzing DNA damage has long been felt in the field and the authors argue convincingly for this. The data in the manuscript are in general well-supported and of high quality, and show promise of being a robust alternative to traditional focus counting. However, there are a number of areas where I would suggest further controls and explanations to strengthen the authors' case for the robustness of their ICS method.

      Strengths:

      The spatial ICS method the authors describe and demonstrate is easy to perform and applicable to a wide variety of images. The DDR was well-chosen as an arena to showcase its utility due to its well-characterized dose-responsiveness and known variability between cell types. Their method should be readily useable by any cell biologist wanting to assess the degree of aggregation of fluorescent tags of interest.

      Weaknesses:

      The spatial ICS method, though of longstanding history, is not as intuitive or well-known as spot-based quantitation. While the Theory section gives a standard mathematical introduction, it is not as accessible as it could be. Additionally, the values of TNoP and DA shown in the Results are not discussed sufficiently with regard to their physical and physiological interpretation.

      We agree that a major limitation in adaption of this approach is a deeper understanding of the theory and results. We have updated the theory section to include further discussion (Page 4 line 132)

      The correlation of TNoP with γH2AX foci is high (Figure 2) and suggestive that the ICS method is suitable for measuring the strength of the DDR. The authors correctly mention that the number of spots found using traditional means can vary based on the parameters used for spot detection. They contrast this with their ICS detection method; however, the actual robustness of spatial ICS is not given equal consideration.

      We found it difficult to give equal consideration of robustness to ICS. The major limitation of traditional approaches is proper selection of an intensity threshold that is necessary to define and separate foci from background intensity. However, ICS does not employ a threshold, therefore we could not test different thresholding applications in ICS as we did with traditional methods. In our view the absence of the need for a threshold is profoundly advantageous. The only inputs we employ in the ICS analysis are used to segment cell nuclei, yet these have no impact on the ICS calculation and are necessary for any analysis of the DDR.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Immunostaining of chromatin-associated proteins and visualization of these factors through fluorescence microscopy is a powerful technique to study molecular processes such as DNA damage and repair, their timing, and their genetic dependencies. Nonetheless, it is well-established that this methodology (sometimes called "foci-ology") is subject to biases introduced during sample preparation, immunostaining, foci visualization, and scoring. This manuscript addresses several of the shortcomings associated with immunostaining by using image correlation spectroscopy (ICS) to quantify the recruitment of several DNA damage response-associated proteins following various types of DNA damage.

      The study compares automated foci counting and fluorescence intensity to image correlation spectroscopy degree of aggregation study the recruitment of DNA repair proteins to chromatin following DNA damage. After validating image correlation spectroscopy as a reliable method to visualize the recruitment of γH2AX to chromatin following DNA damage in two separate cell lines, the study demonstrates that this new method can also be used to quantify RPA1 and Rad51 recruitment to chromatin following DNA damage. The study further shows that RPA1 signal as measured by this method correlates with cell sensitivity to Olaparib, a widely-used PARP inhibitor.

      Strengths:

      Multiple proof-of-concept experiments demonstrate that using image correlation spectroscopy degree of aggregation is typically more sensitive than foci counting or foci intensity as a measure of recruitment of a protein of interest to a site of DNA damage. The sensitivity of the SKOV3 and OVCA429 cell lines to MMS and the PARP inhibitors Olaparib and Veliparib as measured by cell viability in response to increasing amounts of each compound is a valuable correlate to the image correlation spectroscopy degree of aggregation measurements.

      Weaknesses:

      The subjectivity of foci counting has been well-recognized in the DNA repair field, and thus foci counts are usually interpreted relative to a set of technical and biological controls and across a meaningful time period. As such:

      (1) A more detailed description of the numerous prior studies examining the immunostaining of proteins such as γH2AX, RAD51, and RPA is needed to give context to the findings presented herein.

      We apologize for not providing enough detail. We have added further references and discussion. γH2AX foci counting, in particular, has been used in thousands of previous studies. (Pages 18 line 513 and 517)

      (2) The benefits of adopting image correlation spectroscopy should be discussed in comparison to other methods, such as super-resolution microscopy, which may also offer enhanced sensitivity over traditional microscopy.

      Thank you for raising this point. We have added this discussion (page 19 line 553). The limiting factor that ICS addresses is the partition coefficient of signal in a foci or cluster versus outside the cluster. Super-resolution will not necessarily improve this unless it is resolved down to single molecule counting. However, one would still need to evaluate how to define a cluster or foci in the background of non-cluster distribution.

      (3) Additional controls demonstrating the specificity of their antibodies to detection of the proteins of interest should be added, or the appropriate citations validating these antibodies included.

      We have added text stating that we only use validated antibodies (page 6 line 193). One thing to note is that we are measuring differences between treatment conditions, thus, if an antibody has non-specific labeling of proteins of cellular structures that do not change upon treatment, our approach would overcome this limitation.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper described a new tool called "Image Correlation Spectroscopy; ICS) to detect clustering fluorescence signals such as foci in the nucleus (or any other cellular structures). The authors compared ICS DA (degree of aggregation) data with Imaris Spots data (and ImageJ Find Maxima data) and found a comparable result between the two analyses and that the ICS sometimes produced a better quantification than the Imaris. Moreover, the authors extended the application of ICS to detect cell-cycle stages by analyzing the DAPI image of cells. This is a useful tool without the subjective bias of researchers and provides novel quantitative values in cell biology.

      Strengths:

      The authors developed a new tool to detect and quantify the aggregates of immunofluorescent signals, which is a center of modern cell biology, such as the fields of DNA damage responses (DDR), including DNA repair. This new method could detect the "invisible" signal in cells without pre-extraction, which could prevent the effect of extracted materials on the pre-assembled ensembles, a target for the detection. This would be an alternative method for the quantification of fluorescent signals relative to conventional methods.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major comments:

      (1) The ICS theory section is essential and based on an excellent review from one of the authors. It would benefit greatly from a diagram showing where the quantities 𝒈(𝟎, 𝟎), 𝝎𝟎, and 𝒈inf come from in the 2D Gaussian fit, ideally for two cases where these quantities differ (i.e., how they correspond to different DA or TNoP values). In my opinion, this addition would greatly increase the manuscript's accessibility for DDR researchers. The citation of the review at the beginning would also be a plus.

      We have added the review citation at the front of the theory section (page 3 line 87).We have highlighted where g(0,0), the most critical measurement for determination of TNoP and DA, derives from in Figure 2D. However, it is difficult to describe all the curve fit parameters in an image as they have some interdependency on each other and thus labeling one in a single image would not independently capture how they might be observed in a different curve fit.

      (2) The TNoP measured in Figure 2 is a quantity about 2000-3000 times greater than the number of "traditionally detected" foci by both methods and the linear relations have very low Y intercepts. Can the authors comment explicitly on the physical interpretation of this number - are 2 to 3 thousand independent particles present within each "focus" detected by traditional means? If so, then what might one "particle" correspond to? (a single secondary antibody or fluorophore? a nucleosome?). In a similar vein, the X intercepts lie at around 25 foci, meaning that in images with fewer than that number of foci detected by ImageJ or Imaris, the ICS method should detect zero TNoP - is this in line with the authors' predictions? Is it possible that a first-order line fit is not the most appropriate relation between the two methods?

      We apologize for our brevity here. Since DA proved to be a more useful metric we did not spend much effort discussing TNoP. TNoP correlates to the number of clustered particles, or non-diffuse fluorophores. TNoP is the inverse of the number of individual particles per nucleus, but the value is not a direct measure of foci. If a sample had no clustering at all, the number of individual particles would be at a maximum and the TNoP would be at a minimum. However, as fluorophores cluster, the number of individual particles (i.e. non-clustered fluorophores) decreases, which increases the TNoP value. Therefore, TNoP has a correlation to the number of foci detected through traditional measurements, as we found here. Yet, TNoP is a relative measurement and cannot be compared across different conditions. Similar to foci counting, TNoP is unable to factor the size or intensity of each cluster, thus DA is a more appropriate quantification of the DNA damage response.

      The value of TNoP is dependent on the fitted point spread function and the area of the nucleus. The y=0 intercept of TNoP is defined by the optical setup and is not expected to necessarily go through x=0. Intriguingly, other groups have found that some foci identified through traditional measurements are actually clusters of multiple smaller foci, thus the concept of what a foci represents is difficult to interpret. Thus, here we aimed to show a general correlation of TNoP with foci count through traditional methods to reflect how ICS is similar to foci counting, then employed DA to overcome the limitations of defining a foci.

      We have tried to clarify this in the text (page 8, line 266)

      (3) Some suggestions to address the robustness of ICS:

      For a given sample (i.e. one segmented nucleus), the calculation of DA and TNoP should be similar between different images of that same nucleus taken at different times, similar to how the number of traditionally detected foci would be fairly invariant. In particular, it should be shown that these values are not just scaling with the higher normalized intensity seen in stronger DDR responses. In the same vein, the linear relationship between TNoP and "foci" should not change even if the confocal settings are slightly different (i.e., higher/lower illumination intensity) as long as the condition stipulated by the authors in the Discussion holds ("ICS can be implemented on any fluorescence image as long as the square relative fluorescence intensity fluctuations are detectable above noise fluctuations."). To show, as the title states, that spatial ICS is a robust tool, it would be desirable to demonstrate this with a series of images of the same cell at the same or varying excitation intensities.

      Thank you for your suggestions. Indeed, the calculation will be the same over sequential images of the same cell. Observations of dose dependent DA that does not correlate with intensity for RPA1 and RAD51 results (Fig. S5) directly demonstrates that DA does not just scale with intensity.

      We would not expect the TNoP to change with confocal setting, however we show in Figure 1 that the number of foci does indeed change with intensity settings as captured by thresholds. Therefore, any interpretation of TNoP vs. foci count would be very difficult to make at different microscope settings. To ensure we are fairly comparing ICS to existing analysis we keep the settings the same and measure changes between conditions.

      (4) More information is needed on how intensity normalization was performed. The Methods states "Measurements across experiments were normalized by the control in each dataset." The DMSO (0mM drug) plots all appear to have a mean of 1.0, so it appears the values for each set of control nuclei were divided by their own mean, and then the values for each set of experimental nuclei were divided by the mean value of all 3 controls as an aggregate; is this correct?

      We apologize for not being more clear. Thank you for raising this point. We normalized data to a control from each experimental group. Thus, in figures 3,4 and 5 data were collected over multiple experiments with one control per experiment and each treatment condition included in each experiment. Therefore, we normalized each result to the corresponding control from that imaging session. However, in Figure 8 we ran experiments at much higher throughput with multiple controls per experiment, thus the data were normalized to the overall average of the controls, which is why the control averages are not all at a value of 1. We have clarified this in the text. (Page 7 line 218).

      (5) Some more information about the ICS analysis should be given if the full code is not provided - in particular, how the nucleus mask was implemented on the "signal" channel (were the edges abruptly set to zero or was a window function introduced to avoid edge effects in the discrete FFT?

      Thank you for raising this point. We have added the code to GitHub - github.com/ dubachLab/ics. The signal region was established by simply applying the nuclear mask from the DAPI channel to the IF channel. Each region is padded with average intensity value at the edges for 2x the dimensions of the ROI to remove edge effects in the FFT.

      Minor comments:

      (1) Figure 3, 4, 5: I think it would aid figure readability if channels were labeled in the images themselves, not just in the legend.

      Thank you for the suggestion, we tried doing this and struggle to fit a label with the layout of the images. We were also concerned about interpretation of data in each column and the potential to assign data to each figure if they were so prominently labeled.

      (2) Supplemental Figures are mislabeled; the order given in the legends is S1, S2, S3, S2, S3. S4 is called out in the main text where it should be S5.

      Thank you for catching this error. We have made the necessary corrections. S4 contains data on cellular response to the drugs, while S5 contains intensity data in response to MMS.

      (3) It should be stated for each Figure what kind of microscopy was performed - I assume that it is confocal for everything except when widefield is explicitly stated, but for clarity please add this information.

      Indeed, this is correct, we have indicated which microscopy was used for each figure.

      (4) The MATLAB code and full (uncropped) Western blots should be provided as supplemental data if possible.

      We have included a GitHub link for the code and un-cropped western blots.

      (5) The p values from significance tests should indicate whether multiple comparisons correction was necessary (if suggested by Prism) and performed.

      Apologies for a lack of clarity but this was not necessary, significance was calculated vs. the next lower dose (e.g. 10 micromolar vs. 1 micromolar). We have clarified this in the methods (page 7 line 221).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major points:

      In addition to the weaknesses noted above, to encourage widespread adoption of this method, the authors should make the tools that they used for their analysis publicly available. In a few instances (e.g., compare Figures 3J and 3L), other methods outperform DA. It would be meaningful to discuss when especially DA may be a better measure than others (such as intensity or number of foci).

      We have made code available on Github. We expect results, such as those in Figures 3J and 3L where intensity is significantly higher at the highest concentration but DA is not are reflective of the underlying biology and this may be interpreted differently under different experimental conditions. Imaris spots (Fig. 3K) also does not capture a significant increase at the highest dose of olaparib, suggesting that intensity may raise but it doesn’t not generate more foci. These results are likely highly dependent on the mechanism of olaparib at such a high concentration and the DDR response. We are hesitant to draw biological conclusions from these results and instead would like to highlight the capacity of ICS to evaluate the DDR, therefore we don’t want to make any broad comments about different applications.

      Minor points:

      (1) Pg. 12: "We used MMS to induce DNA damage in SKOV3 and OVCA429 cells. As expected, normalized intensity for RPA1 and RAD51 values (Figure S5) did not display a dose dependence on MMS concentration."

      Please provide a citation for the claim that RPA1 and RAD51 normalized intensities do not display a dose dependence on MMS concentration.

      These were data that we generated. We were not expecting an intensity change as that would presumably require increased protein generation in response to MMS, compared to gH2AX where the phospho-specific H2AX is generated in the DDR.

      (2) Pg. 12: "Similar to RPA1, RAD51 does not form distinguishable foci in the nuclei in cells without preextraction (Fig. 5)." Please provide a citation for this claim.

      We did not do pre-extraction and our results don’t produce changes in distinguishable foci. We provided citations discussing how, without pre extraction, foci formation for these proteins is not obvious (REF 38 and 39).

      (3) I noted that the authors cite one paper [38] apparently showing that RPA and Rad51 do not always form foci, however, this is in the C. elegans germline in response to micro irradiation, therefore I am not sure that it is applicable to human cells.

      We apologize for referencing a paper on C elegans. Most papers looking at RPA and RAD51 in the DDR use pre-extraction as it seems necessary to observe foci. Therefore, there are not as many papers, that we could find, that do not use pre-extraction. Reference 39 is in Hela cells.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major points:

      (1) Page 8, the second paragraph: In the Result section, it is better to describe how the authors carried out immuno-staining (without pre-extract subtraction) and ICS briefly, although the method is described in detail in the Method section.

      Thank you for the suggestion, we have added this description (page 8, line 259)

      (2) In Figure 5K-P: The authors analyzed "invisible" RAD51 foci on the image (Fig. 5L, M, O, and P) without pre-extraction. As a control experiment, it is useful to check whether pre-extraction would provide "visible" RAD51 foci and to examine the similar MMS concentration dependency shown in Figure 5R (or 5T). This would strengthen the power of the ICS analysis.

      Thank you for the suggestion. In our hands, pre-extraction is extremely subjective. We have tried performing pre-extraction but find highly variable results depending on conditions. Therefore, we did not include any pre-extraction here. We expect that performing these experiments may or may not agree with results in Figure 5 largely because we are unable to achieve repeatable pre-extraction foci counting.

      (3) Figure 6D (and 6C) looks very interesting. It would be important to show the interpretation of this correlation shown in the graph. Although the authors argued that ICS analysis results shown in the graph could provide new insight into the DDR (page 14, last line 5), as shown in another part, it is important to carry out the same analysis by using Imaris Spots. Moreover, it is interesting to apply the analysis to RAD51 foci (shown in Figure 5), given that the PARPi effect is enhanced in the absence of RAD51mediated recombination.

      We completely agree that this analysis may generate interesting results to help interpret the DDR response to PARP inhibition. These experiments are part of an ongoing follow up study where we extend the use of ICS to other parts of the DDR and investigate protein clustering across several proteins with impact on PARPi response. Therefore, since the focus of this manuscript is introducing ICS as a tool to study the DDR, we believe that omitting those data here does not deter from the central points of the manuscript. We including results in Figure 6 because we wanted to show how ICS could impact DDR research. Furthermore, combined with our advances shown in Figures 7 and 8, we are currently working on adapting ICS to be high-throughput and much simpler than Imaris spots for handling large datasets needed to generate results like those in Figure 6.

      Minor points:

      (1) Figure 1I, blue arrows: These showed an area with a higher background. Because of a low magnification, it is very hard to see the difference from the other areas of the background. It is better to show a magnified image of the representative region with a higher background.

      We hope that readers can see the higher intensity in the diffuse area. We attempted to construct a zoomed in area, but that either blocked a significant portion of the nonzoomed image or added complexity to the figure. We have noted that images in Figure S1 are larger and more obviously capture an increase in background intensity.

      (2) Figure 2 legend, line 5, the same as "A)": This should be "B".

      Here, the number of independent particle clusters is intended to be the same as A, the difference is that the independent particles are clusters in C and individual fluorophores in A.

      (3) Page 9, the first paragraph, last line, foci formation, and foci composition: These should be "focus formation and focus composition".

      We have changed this.

      (4) Page 15, the first paragraph, line 5, palbociclib, camptothecin, or etoposide: please explain what kinds of the drugs are.

      We have added that these drugs cause cells to stall at different cell cycle stages. Explaining the drugs would take considerable room in the text.

      (5) Page 16, the first paragraph, line 1, bleomycin: Please explain what this drug is.

      Similar to above, we have stated that this drug causes DNA damage, going into detail would take several sentences.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Triple-negative breast cancer (TNBC) accounts for approximately 15-20% of all breast cancers. Compared to other types of breast cancer, TNBC exhibits highly aggressive clinical characteristics, a greater likelihood of metastasis, poorer clinical outcomes, and lower survival rates. Immunotherapy is an important treatment option for TNBC, but there is significant heterogeneity in treatment response. Therefore, it is crucial to accurately identify immunosuppressive patients before treatment and actively seek more effective therapeutic approaches for TNBC patients.

      Strengths:

      In this work, the authors collected and integrated data from single cells and large volumes of RNA sequencing and RNA-SEQ to analyze the TME landscape mediated by genes associated with iron death. On this basis, the prediction model of prognosis and treatment response of 131 patients was constructed using a machine learning algorithm, which is beneficial to provide individualized and precise treatment guidance for breast cancer patients.

      Thank you for your appreciation of our work. We are encouraged by your positive feedback and will continue to explore new avenues in personalized medicine for breast cancer.

      Weaknesses:

      However, there are still some issues that need to be clarified:

      (1) The description of the research background is too brief and concise, and it is necessary to add some information about the limitations of existing methods and the differences and advantages of this study compared with other published relevant studies, so as to better highlight the necessity and research value of this study.

      Thank you for your suggestions. We have supplemented the research background and compared the differences between this study and other studies, further highlighting the research value of our study.

      (2) This study is a retrospective analysis of a public data set and lacks experimental validation and prospective experiments to support the results of bioinformatics analysis. This should be added to the acknowledgment of limitations in the study.

      Thank you for the constructive feedback. We also acknowledge that the lack of experimental evidence is one of the limitations of this study. Therefore, we plan to conduct in vivo and in vitro experiments in our future research to support the findings of our bioinformatics analysis, and have already supplemented the relevant content in the limitations of Discussion.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study aims to explore the ferroptosis-related immune landscape of TNBC through the integration of single-cell and bulk RNA sequencing data, followed by the development of a risk prediction model for prognosis and drug response. The authors identified key subpopulations of immune cells within the TME, particularly focusing on T cells and macrophages. Using machine learning algorithms, the authors constructed a ferroptosis-related gene risk score that accurately predicts survival and the potential response to specific drugs in TNBC patients.

      Strengths:

      The study identifies distinct subpopulations of T cells and macrophages with differential expression of ferroptosis-related genes. The clustering of these subpopulations and their correlation with patient prognosis is highly insightful, especially the identification of the TREM2+ and FOLR2+ macrophage subtypes, which are linked to either favorable or poor prognoses. The risk model thus holds potential not only for prognosis but also for guiding treatment selection in personalized oncology.

      Thank you for your thorough review and insightful comments.

      Weaknesses:

      The study has a relatively small sample size, with only 9 samples analyzed by scRNA-seq. Given the typically high heterogeneity of the tumor microenvironment (TME) in cancer patients, this may affect the accuracy of the conclusions. The scRNA-seq analysis focuses on the expression of ferroptosis-related genes in various cells within the TME. In contrast, bulk RNA sequencing uses data from tumor samples, and the results between the two analyses are not consistent. The bulk RNA sequencing results may not accurately capture the changes happening in the microenvironment.

      Thank you for your constructive feedback. Although this study only included 9 samples, given the limited availability of scRNA-seq datasets for untreated TNBC in public databases, we chose to utilize a dataset that contains a relatively larger number of untreated TNBC samples. We are fully aware of the complexity and high heterogeneity of the TME. Despite the limited sample size, we first conducted rigorous quality control on the data and, based on this, preliminarily revealed the landscape of the TME mediated by ferroptosis-related genes. These findings provide a new perspective for understanding the biological mechanisms underlying the onset and progression of breast cancer. To enhance the reliability and generalizability of our research results, we plan to strive to expand the sample size in future work and consider integrating other omics technologies, such as proteomics and metabolomics, with scRNA-seq data for a more in-depth exploration of the complex interactions within the TME.

      We also agree with your viewpoint that scRNA-seq data reveals gene expression within individual cells, while bulk RNA-seq data reveals the average gene expression in tumor tissues, and there are differences in data acquisition and processing methods between the two. However, we believe that there are also some close connections between them in terms of gene expression levels. By comparing the expression specificity of marker genes for specific cell types in breast cancer tissues, we found that they are correlated with patient prognosis, and the results have been validated in both internal and external validation sets. Thank you once again for your valuable suggestions, which will play an important guiding role in our subsequent research.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The breast cancer scRNA-seq dataset files of GSE176078 include 10 TNBC primary tumors (DOI:10.1016/j.compbiomed.2023.107066). However, in this study, only 9 cases were listed, please explain the reason for the data exclusion.

      Thank you for your questions. Although it was clearly stated in the original paper that "To elucidate the cellular architecture of breast cancers, we analyzed 26 primary pre-treatment tumors, including 11 ER+, 5 HER2+ and 10 TNBCs, by scRNA-Seq (Supplementary Table 1)," upon downloading and carefully examining the patient information in Supplementary Table 1, we only included 9 patients explicitly labeled as TNBC in our study (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9044823/#SD1).

      (2) The description of the technique in the methods section should be more detailed, such as parameter settings, quality control standards, etc.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestions. We have already supplemented the relevant content in the methods section.

      (3) Please check and correct formatting errors to improve readability, such as lines 176 and 177.

      We were really sorry for our careless mistakes. Thank you for your reminder. We have corrected the “Pseudotime analysis with scRNA-seq data helps to obtain an approximate landscape of gene expression dynamics” into “Pseudotime analysis of scRNA-seq snapshot data helps to provide an approximate landscape of gene expression dynamics”. And we have further checked and revised the formatting errors of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) In multiple sections of the paper, abbreviations are used without being defined when first mentioned.

      We were really sorry for our careless mistakes. Thank you for your reminder. We have already added definitions for the abbreviations in both the abstract and the main text.

      (2) The authors should analyze whether the transcription factors in Figure 2 are correlated with the expression of ferroptosis-related genes.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. Some transcription factors in Figure 2 correlate with the expression of ferroptosis-related genes, which we have supplemented in the Discussion.

      (3) Figures 3d and 4e lack explanations for the axis values, and for Figure 4e, is the unit of the y-axis labeled "survival" in days?

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. We apologize for the lack of explanations for the axis values in Figures 3d and 4e and we have made revisions to both figures accordingly. We have noted that the unit "survival" on the y-axis of Figure 4e is in years, and we have already made the necessary supplement to clarify this. Thank you very much for your reminder.

      (4) The authors conducted their analysis using public databases but did not cite the original literature, nor did they discuss the similarities and differences between their findings and those in the original studies.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestions, and we deeply apologize for our carelessness. We have supplemented the original literature in the references and discussed the differences between this study and the original literature in the Discussion.

      (5) Some figures, particularly those involving heatmaps and t-SNE plots (e.g., Figures 1 and 3), present dense and complex data that may be challenging for readers to interpret. The heatmaps (Figure 1e-f and 3d) include many genes, but it is unclear how these genes were selected, and the scale of gene expression differences is difficult to interpret. Simplifying these figures by focusing on the most differentially expressed and clinically relevant genes (e.g., those with prognostic value) would improve readability.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestions. The t-SNE plots in Figures 1 and 3 primarily serve as a dimensionality reduction technique to visually present the clustering of multiple cells or samples based on gene expression, aiding readers in quickly identifying cell subpopulations. The heatmaps, on the other hand, are mainly used to showcase the differential expression of ferroptosis-related genes across different clinicopathological classifications and cell subpopulations, with varying shades of color helping readers quickly recognize gene expression differences among different cell subpopulations. The genes included in the heatmaps (Figures 1e-f and 3d) are sourced from the FerrDb website. We have uploaded the list of ferroptosis-related genes used in this study as Supplementary Table 1 and added the relevant steps in Method 2.3.

      (6) The study analyzes the expression of ferroptosis-related genes in different immune cells within the TME. The authors should discuss how these changes in gene expression may impact the function and behavior of immune cells.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback. We have supplemented the discussion with detailed effects of the main differential genes (FOLR2 and TREM2) on the tumor immune response.

      (7) The authors analyzed the expression of ferroptosis-related genes in immune cells using single-cell sequencing data. However, they subsequently applied the selected genes to perform a risk factor analysis in tumor cells. Is the expression and function of these genes the same in immune cells and tumor cells? This seems questionable.

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. We also believe that there may be differences in the expression and function of genes between immune cells and tumor cells. However, some genes may exhibit similarities in their expression and function in immune cells and tumor cells, especially within the tumor immune microenvironment, due to the complex and tight interactions between immune cells and tumor cells (as shown in Figures 1d and 2h), and their expression levels can be related to the onset, progression, and prognosis of tumors.

      (8) While the risk score model based on ferroptosis-related genes is promising, it lacks experimental validation, which weakens the strength of the conclusions. The authors should consider conducting in vitro or in vivo experiments. These functional studies would provide essential evidence to support the model's predictive capability.

      Thank you for the constructive feedback. We fully recognize the importance of conducting functional studies to substantiate the predictive capability of the model. Therefore, we plan to conduct in vitro and in vivo experiments in our future research to provide the necessary evidence and further validate the model's effectiveness.

      (9) The manuscript predicts sensitivity to 27 drugs based on the risk score, but it lacks mechanistic insight into why patients in the high-risk group might be more responsive to certain drugs. Including a more detailed discussion of the molecular mechanisms underlying this drug sensitivity, particularly linking ferroptosis-related genes to drug metabolism or efficacy, would provide a stronger rationale for the clinical application of these findings.

      Thank you very much for your valuable suggestions. In the discussion, we thoroughly analyzed the mechanism of action of the drugs (ABT-263 and erlotinib) with the greatest difference in sensitivity between high-risk and low-risk groups, as well as their correlation with ferroptosis.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this revised report, Yamanaka and colleagues investigate a proposed mechanism by which testosterone modulates seminal plasma metabolites in mice. The authors identify oleic acid as a particularly important metabolite, derived from seminal vesicle epithelium, that stimulates linear progressive motility in isolated cauda epidydimal sperm in vitro. The authors provide additional experimental evidence of a testosterone dependent mechanism of oleic acid production by the seminal vesicle epithelium.

      Strengths:

      Often, reported epidydimal sperm from mice have lower percent progressive motility compared with sperm retrieved from the uterus or by comparison with human ejaculated sperm. The findings in this report may improve in vitro conditions to overcome this problem, as well as add important physiological context to the role of reproductive tract glandular secretions in modulating sperm behaviors. The strongest observations are related to the sensitivity of seminal vesicle epithelial cells to testosterone. The revisions include addition of methodological detail, modified language to reflect the nuance of some of the measurements, as well as re-performed experiments with more appropriate control groups. The findings are likely to be of general interest to the field by providing context for follow-on studies regarding the relationship between fatty acid beta oxidation and sperm motility pattern.

      Thank you for summarizing and your positive evaluation of our study.

      Weaknesses:

      Support for the proposed mechanism is stronger in this revised report than in the previous report, but there are many challenges in measuring sperm metabolism and its direct relationship with motility patterns. This study is no exception and largely relies on correlations between various experiments in lieu of direct testing. Additionally, the discussion is framed from a human pre-clinical perspective, and it should be noted that the reproductive physiology between mice and humans is very different.

      Thank you for pointing out the challenges in our paper. We appreciate your comment on the limited evidence supporting the direct relationship between sperm metabolism and motility patterns under current experimental conditions. Based on your and reviewer2’s suggestions, we have decided to remove the experiments and discussion on the “effects of OA on sperm metabolism, motility and fertility (Fig. 7, Supplemental Figure 5A and C-F.)” and the corresponding parts in the Discussion section from the paper. (See also Reviewer 2's main comment) These data mainly show correlations, and did not show direct evidence of causality. Instead, we added a new experiment to the manuscript, in which a lipid mixture that mimics the fatty acid profile secreted testosterone-dependently from seminal vesicle epithelial cells was added to the sperm culture medium (New Supplemental Figure 5, Lines 259-268). In this experiment, motility parameters were measured using CASA. This experiment evaluates the direct effects of lipid exposure on sperm motility. With these revisions, we are able to focus on the metabolic changes caused by testosterone in seminal vesicle epithelial cells, which are the central focus of our research. We have added a short statement agreeing the potential importance of OA and our intention to more rigorously investigate the role of OA in sperm function in subsequent studies (Lines 402-407).

      Furthermore, we have revised text, clearly state the limitations of the species difference and clarify that the translational aspects to humans are speculative (Lines 383-384, 395-397, 408-410).

      We appreciate your guidance. We believe that these changes will strengthen our research.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Using a combination of in vivo studies with testosterone-inhibited and aged mice with lower testosterone levels as well as isolated mouse and human seminal vesicle epithelial cells the authors show that testosterone induces an increase in glucose uptake. They find that testosterone induces a difference in gene expression with a focus on metabolic enzymes. Specifically, they identify increased expression of enzymes regulating cholesterol and fatty acid synthesis, leading to increased production of 18:1 oleic acid. The revised version strengthens the role of ACLY as the main regulator of seminal vesicle epithelial cell metabolic programming. 18:1 oleic acid is secreted by seminal vesicle epithelial cells and taken up by sperm, inducing an increase in mitochondrial respiration. The difference in sperm motility and in vivo fertilization in the presence of 18:1 oleic acid and the absence of testosterone, however, is small. Additional experiments should be included to further support that oleic acid positively affects sperm function.

      Thank you very much for carefully reading the manuscript and for your comments. We appreciate your understanding that the role of ACLY in metabolic programming of seminal vesicle epithelial cells has been strengthened in the revised version. On the other hand, we agree with your view that the increase in sperm motility and fertilization rate by oleic acid is minimal under the current experimental conditions. We agree that further evidence is needed to support our conclusion regarding the positive effects of oleic acid on sperm function. Based on your comments and our re-evaluation of the data, we have decided to remove the experiments and discussion on “OA and sperm motility” from the current paper (Fig. 7, Supplemental Figure 5A and C-F). In the revised paper, we have significantly toned down the claims on the previous role of oleic acid and instead focused on the metabolic regulatory mechanisms of seminal vesicle epithelial cells.

      We hope that these revisions address your concerns and improve the overall clarity of the manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Note from the reviewing editor: The reviewers agree that the revised manuscript is significantly improved and view the work as important. Both reviewers agree that the evidence for testosterone effects on seminal vesicle epithelial cells to support fatty acid synthesis is strong and suggest that the authors tone down their conclusion of oleic acid effect on sperm motility as the effect is very small. With this minor changes, the evidence to support the conclusion of the study is viewed as solid.

      Thank you for recognizing the improvements that we have made to our manuscript and for appreciating the importance of our research. We also appreciate your assessment that the evidence for the effect of testosterone on seminal vesicle epithelial cells that support fatty acid synthesis is solid.

      On the other hand, we agree with the two reviewers that the effect of oleic acid on sperm motility is limited and that the relevant data do not measure a direct relationship. Therefore, we have decided to withdraw the data set on the effect of oleic acid on sperm (Fig. 7, Supplemental Figure 5A and C-F) and focus this paper on seminal vesicle epithelial cells (in response to reviewer 2's suggestion). Given that testosterone-induced lipid (Fatty acid) synthesis in seminal vesicle epithelial cells is a key aspect of our study, we have included additional experiments in the revised manuscript to show how lipids affect sperm (New Supplemental Figure5, Lines 259-263).

      With these revisions, the manuscript emphasizes the importance of testosterone-dependent fatty acid synthesis in seminal vesicle epithelial cells and the fact that this includes oleic acid. The title has also been partially revised in line with these revisions.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Minor Comments:

      (1) The authors indicate in the methods that extracellular flux analysis was normalized to cell count. However, the y-axis units in Figs 4, 8, 9 and SFig 9 are not normalized.

      (2) The OA label appears to be missing from Fig 7A. Additionally, the scale bar is offset in one of the images and the length of the scale bar does not appear to be mentioned in the figure legend.

      Thank you for raising these points. We have corrected.

      Fig. 7 has been withdrawn in response to Reviewer 2's suggestion.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      With the experiments included in their revised version the authors strengthen their conclusions about testosterone-induced metabolic reprogramming in seminal vesicle cells resulting in reduced proliferation. The experiments surrounding ACLY are well-designed and give insights into the underlying molecular mechanisms. For other parts, the manuscript became less clear and it is often hard to follow the author's line of thoughts for their conclusions.

      Based on the experiments shown in the manuscript this reviewer is still not convinced that OA positively affects sperm function. The changes in linear motility are minor, blastocyst levels are lower and the authors do not show that OA alone positively affects cleavage rate during AI. Without additional experiments that show a stronger effect on sperm function, the authors should consider focusing the manuscript exclusively on seminal vesicle epithelial cells.

      Thank you for your constructive comments on our paper. We thank the reviewer for pointing out that the effect of oleic acid (OA) on sperm function is limited in our current experiments. As reviewer 1 also pointed out, we agree that further experiments and improved methodology are needed to reliably demonstrate the functional effects of OA on sperm. Because the strength of the data on the direct relationship between fatty acids in seminal fluid and improved sperm function is currently insufficient, we have removed the data set for oleic acid and sperm motility (Fig. 7, Supplemental Figure 5A and C-F) and focused on the “the mechanism of metabolic regulation of testosterone in seminal vesicle epithelial cells”. We have consistently narrowed the focus of the paper to the theme of “how testosterone changes energy metabolism in seminal vesicle epithelial cells”. In accordance with this change, the structure of the paper has also been partially revised (red text in the manuscript). With these revisions, the main point of the paper focuses on the mechanism by which testosterone regulates metabolic pathways in the seminal vesicle epithelial cells.

      For more detailed revisions, please see the responses to your comments below.

      (1) 45-55 still need major revision. It will not become clear to the reader what the authors mean by epididymal maturation. 'Ability to fertilize in in vitro?' Epididymal sperm are moving linearly in the absence of seminal vesicle fluid. Increased progressive motility, hyperactivation, and the ability to undergo the acrosome reaction are induced upon exposure to seminal vesicle fluid. The authors should introduce the concept of capacitation and that capacitation can be induced in vitro by exposure to bicarbonate and a cholesterol acceptor.

      Thank you for pointing out the ambiguity of epididymal maturation, the need to clarify the concept of capacitation, and the role of seminal plasma in this context. The revised text explains that epididymal maturation only gives sperm their potential ability to fertilize. It also explains that it is the subsequent capacitation process—inducible in vitro by incubation with bicarbonate and cholesterol acceptors—that gives full fertilization potential. On the other hands, we emphasize that in vivo, seminal plasma, which contains both capacitation-promoting and decapacitation factors, plays a key role in fine-tuning the timing of capacitation, ensuring that sperm acquire fertilization competence at the appropriate moment. We hope that these revisions clarify our intended meaning and strengthen the overall message of the paragraph. (lines 42-54)

      “Sperm that have completed spermatogenesis in the testis acquire their potential to fertilize while maturing in the epididymis (5–7). The physiological change of sperm during fertilization process are collectively referred to as “capacitation”. This change includes a large amplitude of flagella (called hyperactivation) and developing the capacity to undergo the acrosome reaction, and can be induced by culturing sperm collected from the epididymis in a medium containing bicarbonate and cholesterol acceptors (8, 9). However, once capacitation is complete, sperm cannot maintain that state for a long time. Therefore, even if epididymal sperm that have not been exposed to seminal plasma are artificially inseminated into the cervix or uterus, the fertilization rate remains low (10–12). That is because, in vivo, during ejaculation, exposure of epididymal sperm to seminal plasma masks the unintended capacitation as they pass through the female reproductive tract and ensures fertilization of sperm that reach the oviduct (13). In other words, seminal plasma plays an important role in fine-tuning the timing of sperm capacitation and in maintaining the sustained sperm motility needed to reach the oviduct.”

      (2) 81: Similar as in their rebuttal the authors should further elute on the connection between fructose, citrate, and testosterone. That still does not become clear. Based on the author's explanation in the rebuttal, why are citrate and fructose levels higher when the animals are castrated?

      We thank you for the opportunity to clarify our statement regarding the relationship between fructose, citrate, and testosterone. Our original explanation was intended to reflect the fact that testosterone from the testes has a stimulating effect on the accessory reproductive glands, and to report that the concentrations of fructose and citric acid were higher in the non-castrated (control) animals than in the castrated animals. In castrated animals, the absence of testosterone leads to decreased activity of these glands and, consequently, lower levels of these metabolites. To make this clear, we have revised the manuscript as follows. (lines 76-82)

      “Several specific factors produced by the male accessory glands that contribute to seminal plasma and impact male fertility have been elucidated. For example, surgical removal of seminal vesicles in male mice and rats was associated with infertility (17, 22, 23). The observations that fructose (24) and citric acid (25) concentrations in seminal plasma of control mice and rats are higher than in castrated animals suggest that the specific metabolism of the accessory glands might be affected by testosterone derived from the testes, which activate intracellular androgen receptors (AR; NR3C4) required for gene regulation of transcription.”

      (3) 111: This reviewer does not understand the author's obsession with reporting linear motility. Sperm are moving linearly when isolated from the epididymis. Again, increase of progressive motility is a well-defined hallmark of capacitation and primarily used in the field when discussing changes in sperm motility during capacitation. This reviewer is assuming that the changes in progressive vs linear motility in Fig. 7 are not significant because the data is more scattered. The % increase seems to be approximately the same. The same is true for Fig. 8. The increase in LIN is so small and not dose-dependent that this reviewer is not comfortable making that one of the main conclusions of the manuscript.

      Our claim is based on the observation that seminal vesicle secretions significantly improve the linear motility (VSL and LIN) of sperm even in an environment that does not contain capacitation-inducing factors such as BSA. We interpret this as a survival strategy for sperm to pass through the female reproductive tract efficiently. Therefore, we believe that this does not mean that the meaning of “progressive motility” in the context of conventional capacitation is the same as that of progressive motility observed in seminal plasma.

      However, the reviewer's point that the current data set does not sufficiently support what the minor increase in linear motility caused by oleic acid means is agreed with. Therefore, we have decided to withdraw the dataset on the effect of oleic acid on sperm motility (Fig. 7, Supplemental Figure 5A and C-F) and have revised the conclusion. (Lines 406-410)

      (4) 128: For the mitochondrial membrane potential measurements the authors should mention that they included antimycin as a control. The manuscript would benefit from including scatter plots with unloaded controls to support their gating strategy. In its current stage, the gating between low and high membrane potential seems arbitrary.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have included an explanation of antimycin as a control in the main text (Lines 920-921). In addition, we have added some reference scatter plots and also added an explanation of the gating strategy between low and high membrane potentials (Supplemental Figure 1C and D, Lines 1101-1104). We hope this change will make the manuscript clearer.

      (5) 190: What do the authors mean by: 'However, there was no difference in the Oligomycin-sensitive ECAR, indicating that testosterone may increase glucose metabolism but does not enhance the expression of a group of enzymes involved in the glycolytic pathway.'

      Our original intention was to state that testosterone probably increases basal glycolytic flux via increased glucose uptake (as supported by the GLUT4 translocation data), but does not increase maximal glycolytic capacity, as indicated by the lack of difference in oligomycin-sensitive ECAR.

      However, as Reviewer 1 previously pointed out, we agree that the assay conditions themselves, such as the use of oligomycin to inhibit oxidative mitochondria, may create non-physiological conditions and not fully reflect the energy distribution in vivo. Under these conditions, there is a possibility that the flow of glycolysis will increase artificially as a compensatory reaction, and parameters such as “maximum glycolytic capacity” should have been interpreted with caution.

      Therefore, we have revised the manuscript to clarify that our data are a single-time point under defined experimental conditions and do not necessarily provide direct insight into changes in expression or activity of individual glycolytic enzymes.

      “These data indicate that testosterone enhances glucose utilization. This leads to the interpretation that testosterone increases the flow of glycolysis by increasing glucose uptake and alters metabolic flux distribution.” (Lines 186-188)

      (6) 205: Could the authors elaborate further on how they came to this conclusion: 'These results suggest that testosterone does not reduce transient enzyme activity in mitochondria but rather weakens the metabolic pathway of the mitochondrial TCA cycle and/or the electron transport chain due to the changes in gene expression patterns in seminal vesicle epithelial cells.' Based on their results at this point the authors have no insights about changes in enzyme activity or gene expression that might explain the phenotype.

      Our statement is based on the following observations. In testosterone-treated cells, the addition of glucose increased ECAR, suggesting an increase in glycolytic flux due to an increase in glucose uptake. On the other hand, mitochondrial respiratory parameters (basal respiration, oligomycin-sensitive respiration, FCCP-uncoupled respiration, and reserve respiratory capacity) were significantly decreased under testosterone treatment.

      From these results, it was speculated that testosterone promotes the redistribution of metabolic flux, directing it away from mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation and towards the glycolytic pathway and, possibly, lipid synthesis. However, as the reviewers correctly point out, at this point, we have not directly measured changes in the activity or expression of individual enzymes in the TCA cycle or ETC. Therefore, in the next experiment, we extracted mRNA from the cells and performed gene expression analysis using real-time PCR. To make this clear, we have revised the manuscript as follows.

      “Overall, these data indicate that testosterone promotes the redistribution of metabolic flux. In other words, testosterone increased glycolysis in seminal vesicle epithelial cells while decreasing mitochondrial respiration. To determine whether these changes were accompanied by changes in gene expression of specific metabolic-related enzymes, we analyzed gene expression levels.” (Lines 201-205)

      (7) 219: Characterizing ACLY as an enzyme of the ETC is misleading. ACLY is a cytosolic enzyme that connects the TCA cycle with fatty acid synthesis.

      We would like to thank you for pointing out that the description of the function of ACLY could be misunderstood. We agree that characterizing ACLY as an enzyme of the ETC could be misleading. Therefore, we have revised the sentence to clearly indicate that ACLY is a cytosolic enzyme that links the TCA cycle with fatty acid synthesis. The revised text is as follows:

      "Interestingly, testosterone significantly increased the expression of Acly, which encodes a cytoplasmic enzyme that converts citrate transported from the TCA cycle into acetyl-CoA, a substrate that is essential for fatty acid synthesis." (lines216-218)

      (8) 228: Which results support that ETC proteins were upregulated by flutamide?

      We appreciate the reviewer for this point. In preliminary experiments, we analyzed ETC protein expression using real-time qPCR. Our data show that treatment with flutamide significantly upregulates the expression of genes involved in mitochondrial ETC, such as mtND6, while decreasing the expression of the lipogenic genes Acly and Acc. These additional data are now presented in Supplementary Figure S3B. (lines 223-226)

      (9) 245: Aren't the authors showing in Fig. 5 that glut4 expression is reduced in seminal vesicle epithelial cells upon testosterone treatment? How does that fit into the author's hypothesis?

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have already responded to a similar comment from Reviewer 3 in a previous revision. Please refer to our response to Reviewer 3 in a previous version.

      (10) 285: Based on the author's results OA increases the oocyte cleavage rate but then reduces the rate of blastocyst to cleaved oocyte. Doesn't that mean OA affects negatively early development?

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comment. The one-hour pre-treatment is designed to reflect the transient exposure of sperm to the seminal plasma during ejaculation. In this context, it is unlikely that such a short exposure would impair the overall developmental potential of the embryo. However, although pre-conditioning with oleic acid does not ultimately affect the development of the offspring, it may lead to a decrease in the blastocyst rate at a certain point (approximately 96-120 hours after fertilization). We agree that additional research is needed to demonstrate this.

      Therefore, because the experiments related to the effects of oleic acid on sperm and fertilization are currently incomplete, we have decided to withdraw them for future research.

      (11) 305: What happens to pyruvate and lactate levels when ACLY expression is reduced?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s question regarding the fate of pyruvate and lactate when ACLY expression is reduced. In the absence of testosterone (Ctrl), the expression level of ACLY decreases. At this time, the concentration of pyruvate in the culture medium increased compared to that of testosterone (Testo; Fig. 4D,E). This is probably a reflection of the fact that when the expression of ACLY is suppressed, the rate at which the products of the glycolytic pathway are converted to the fat-producing pathway (i.e., the conversion of citrate to acetyl-CoA) decreases.

      On the other hand, lactate levels did not change significantly. This suggests that the flow of lactate production via lactate dehydrogenase is relatively constant, independent of metabolic reprogramming by ACLY.

      Therefore, our data suggest that a decrease in ACLY expression leads to a decrease in pyruvate demand, while lactate production is maintained. We interpret these findings as supporting the idea that ACLY is important for directing the carbon produced by the glycolytic pathway to lipid synthesis (by transporting citrate from the mitochondria).

      We hope that this explanation clarifies the interpretation of the data.

      Minor revision:

      189: ECAR: extracellular acidification rate. Please correct.

      We have corrected this. (Lines 184-185)

      199: Pyruvate is not synthesized, it is metabolized from PEP. Please correct.

      The following corrections have been made. “pyruvate is metabolized from phosphoenolpyruvic acid through glycolysis”. (Lines 194-195)

      In addition, minor revisions were made to improve the clarity of the overall text.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      General Statements [optional]

      There were several points that were raised by multiple reviewers, which we respond to as follows.

      1. The reviewers pointed to a lack of clear comparison with experimental data. Perhaps this was insufficiently clear in the first submission, but the analysis of ECT-2 localization during cytokinesis was intended as a validation of the model, parameterized based on polarization and applied without further modification to cytokinesis. These situations differ in numerous respects: centrosome number, centrosome size, and we used several experimental conditions to control centrosome positioning. To address this more extensively, in the revised submission we analyzed our data further (Longhini and Glotzer, 2022) to extract profiles of ECT-2 and myosin. We used these profiles both to constrain model parameters (Appendix B.3) and to compare with model predictions for both polarization and cytokinesis (Figs. 3 and 5).
      2. All of the reviewers pointed to our assumption that myosin indirectly recruits ECT-2. We apologize for a lack of clarity in the original draft about this. We had intended to convey the hypothesis that ECT-2 is recruited by a species that is advected with myosin, but for the sake of the minimal model we do not introduce any extra equations for this species and instead assume it colocalizes with myosin. In the revised manuscript, we address this by clearly listing the assumption (#2 on p. 7), and by comparing to an alternative model (Eq. (S4) and Fig. S7) that accounts directly for a third advected species. We also document specifically (second panel from left in Fig. 4) why the short residence time of ECT-2 makes patterning by pure advection impossible. That said, we still do not know the identity of this factor.
      3. The reviewers pointed out that our use of the M4 term to limit contractility was dubious. This was a (probably misguided) attempt to use previously-published models to constrain our model. In the revised submission, we replaced this term with a more general nonlinear term Mk, where we first demonstrate that k = 1 is insufficient to match the data (p. 32), then consider k = 2,3. We present results in the main text for k = 2, while Fig. S5 shows that the corresponding results for k = 3 are not very different. Put another way, we empirically demonstrate that the specific form of this nonlinear term is not important, as long as it prevents contractile instabilities (as pointed out by one of the reviewers).
      4. Apparently, our extension of the model to cytokinesis, and the evidence for validation of the model, was not clear in the original draft. Because of this, we reformulated the section (3.4) and figure (5) on cytokinesis. We identified four representative examples of centrosome positions, then compared the experimental profile of ECT-2 accumulation to the model result. For simplicity, we also eliminated the simulations of the non-phosphorylatable inactive copy of ECT-2 (“ECT-2 6A”). A more detailed analysis of that data revealed that the pattern of accumulation of ECT-2 6A at cleavage furrowing was more similar to the end of polarization, indicating that this copy of ECT-2 appears to have much slower turnover than the endogenous copy (as would expected from phosphorylation-dependent membrane displacement).
      5. Fundamentally, our study addresses a similar question to (Illukkumbura et al., 2023), in the sense that we seek to understand how cortical flows could pattern ECT-2 and myosin, even though the residence time of ECT-2 is very low. Despite the similarities, it differs from the cited study in that ECT-2 is not an inert component that is asymmetrically distributed, but rather a component which regulates myosin levels and cortical flows, ultimately feeding back on its own accumulation. Due to these similarities and differences, we added an expository section in the discussion (p. 18) comparing our results to those of that study.

      Point-by-point description of the revisions

      This section is mandatory. Please insert a point-by-point reply describing the revisions that were already carried out and included in the transferred manuscript.

      Reviewer 1

      In this article, Maxian et al. propose a model combining 1-d simulations of ECT-2 and Myosin concentration at the cortex through binding/unbinding and advection at the cortex, with an input for AIR-1 cortical concentration based on the spatial localisation of the centrosomes in the cytoplasm. The objective of the authors is to recapitulate the role of (1) AIR-1, (2) its effector ECT-2 and (3) the downstream effector, driver of cortical flows, the molecular motors Myosin, in two key physiological processes, polarization and cell division. This is important as work over the last 10 years have emphasized the role of AIR-1 in embryo polarization. Previous biochemical-mechanical models have focused on RhoA/Myosin interactions (Nishikawa et al, 2017), the importance of a negative feedback and excitable RhoA dynamics (Michaux et al, 2018), or anterior PARs/posterior PARs/Myosin (Gross et al, 2019). The authors thus attempt to provide a new descriptive model in which RhoA is implicit, instead focusing on the role of centrosome localization on AIR-1 localization, and providing a framework to explore polarity establishment and cell division based on these 3 simple players. The first part of the model is very reminiscent of previously published models, while the second instead provides a link between the initial polarizing cue AIR-1 and polarization. Based on this description, the model is precisely tuned to achieve polarization while matching experimental observations of flow speed and ECT-2 A/P enrichment shape. The results are therefore certainly new and interesting.

      Thank you for the positive assessment!

      Major comments:

      1. The authors use the position of the centrosomes as a static entry, resulting in a static AIR1 input. Is this true, or are the positions of the centrosomes dynamically modulated over the course of the different processes simulated here (for example as a consequence of cortical flows?), and if so, is the assumption of immobile position?

      We assume that the centrosomes are fixed on the timescale of the cortical dynamics, and study how the cortex responds to a static AIR-1 signal (see clarifying comment on p. 4). In Fig. S4, we show that the cortex responds rapidly to changes in the existence or position of the AIR-1 signal. As such, slower dynamics might be the result of slowly moving centrosomes, as we show in supplementary simulations (Fig. S8).

      1. While in its principle the model is quite simple and elegant, the detailed form of the equations describing the interactions between the players is more complex. Are all these required? If they are crucially important for the behavior of the model, these should be described more thoroughly, and if possible rooted more directly in experimental results:

      Thank you for this comment. We agree that there were several non-trivial terms in our “minimal” model. Our guiding principle for the revision was to reduce complexity and better justify the terms that are included.

      (a) kMEMEc _(Linear enhancement term): why would myosin impact E concentration? The authors state, p.7, ”There is a modest increase in the recruitment rate of ECT-2 due to cortical myosin (directly or indirectly), in a myosin concentration-dependent manner (Longhini and Glotzer, 2022).” I could not find the data supporting this assumption Longhini and Glotzer apparently rather point to a modulation of cortical flows. (”During anaphase, asymmetric ECT-2 accumulation is also myosin-dependent, presumably due to its role in generating cortical flows.”). Embedding this effect in the recruitment rate instead of expecting it from the model thus appears awkward. Could the authors specify how they came to this conclusion, which the authors might have derived from observations made in their previous work, but maybe did not fully document there?

      This is an important issue. Since it was raised by all of the reviewers, we addressed it in our general comments. Throughout the manuscript (Figs. 4 and S4), we tried to highlight that cortical flows are insufficient to localize ECT-2, while the recruitment hypothesis provides a better match to the experimental data. The recruitment by an advected species was speculated upon in Longhini and Glotzer: ”Rather, we favor a model in which the association of ECT-2 with the cortex involves interactions with cortical component(s) that are concentrated by cortical flows.”

      (b) kEME2Mc (ECT-2 non-linear impact on Myosin): does the specific form of the value to convey the enhancement (square form) have an impact on the results?

      The specific form does not have an impact. In fact, in the revised version, our experimental data shows an asymmetry in myosin that is actually lower than ECT-2. As such, a nonlinear term here lacks justification, and we switched to a linear term of the form kEMEMc (see model equations on p. 6).

      (c) KfbM4 ”The form of this term is a coarse-grained version of previously-published work (Michaux et al., 2018).” Myosin feedback on myosin localization proportionally to_ M4 _does not seem to directly derive from Michaux et al. Please detail this points more extensively and detail the derivation, in the supplements if not in the main text.

      Based on this comment and that of reviewer 2, we decided to switch to a more general term for nonlinear negative feedback, as discussed in point 3 in general comments.

      (d) P23. Parameter values: ”This is 1.5 times longer than the estimate for single molecules (Nishikawa et al., 2017; Gross et al., 2019) to reflect the more long-lived nature of myosin foci during establishment phase (Munro et al., 2004).” Not sure what the authors mean by more long-lived duration of foci during establishment phase. Seems rather arbitrary.

      This was a misstatement on our part. A closer look at Gross et al. revealed that, under conditions similar to those we simulate (initial polarity establishment), the residence time of myosin is about 15 s (off rate 0.06 s−1). We modified our justification (p. 30) to include this. We also looked at the effect of longer myosin residence time on polarity establishment (Fig. S8).

      1. It would be very helpful (and indeed more convincing) to include a direct comparison between modeling results and experimental counterpart whenever possible. This might not be possible for some data (e.g. Fig. 3d from Cowan et al), but should be possible for other, in particular Fig. 3c and Fig. 5b, for the flow speed and ECT-2 profiles. In Fig. 5b in particular, previously published experimental data could be produced to give the reader to compare model with experiments (possibly provided as an inset, at least for the wild type conditions).

      We tried to bring in more data based on what was available from previous work (Longhini and Glotzer, 2022). Frame intervals of 10 s prohibited a PIV analysis for flow speeds, and punctate myosin profiles often made it difficult to measure myosin concentration. We were, however, able to extract the ECT-2 concentration from our previous movies and compare it to the model results. We included these comparisons in Figs. 3 and 5, with accompanying discussion in the text.

      Minor comments: 1. Fig. 5b: ECT-2 C 6A(dhc-1) do not seem to be referenced or discussed in the main text.

      Also, why present the results for the flow for 2 conditions and the ECT-2 localisation for 4? Or does the variation of ECT-2 not impact the flow profile?

      As discussed in general comments, we decided to reformulate the cytokinesis figure to incorporate more experimental data. Since we have detailed data on ECT-2 localization, we presented these in Fig. 5 for four experimental conditions, comparing each to the model.

      1. p.6: Given that the non-normalized data is used in the main text, and the normalized only appears in the supplemental, maybe star the dimensionless and remove all hats from the main for greater legibility?

      We changed the notation to make the main text variables (dimensional) unadorned, while the dimensionless variables in the SI now have hats.

      1. p.6: Eqn 1a: carrot missing on 3rd E?

      This is now a moot point because of the previous comment.

      1. p.14: replace_“embryo treatment” with ”experimental conditions”?

      We changed “embryo treatment” to “experimental conditions” globally.

      1. p.21, S4a: add_ A = A/A(Tot)

      We added it in the last display on p. 28.

      1. p.22: ”L = 134.6_ µ_m” - please write 134_ µ_m to retain the precision of original measurements

      We made this change.

      1. p.22: Please provide formula for all dimensionless values as a table at the end of the supplemental for the eager but less-mathematically proficient reader.

      We added Table 1 to list the relationship between dimensional and dimensionless parameters.

      Reviewer 2

      The manuscript by Maxian, Longhini and Glotzer presents purely modeling work performed by the first author in conjunction with the already published experimental work by Longhini and Glotzer (eLife, 2022). The aim of the manuscript is to provide a mathematical model that connects the actomyosin contractility of the cell cortex in C. elegans zygote with the activity of the centrosomal kinase AurA (AIR-1 in C. elegans). The major claim of the authors is that their model, fitted to the experimental data pertaining to the zygote polarization, also describes dynamics during the zygote cytokinesis. In the model, the authors provide a heuristic approach to the biochemical dynamics, reducing their treatment to two variables: myosin and Ect2 Rho GEF. The biochemical model is integrated with a simple 1D active gel-type model for the cortical flow. The model uses static diffusive field of activity of AurA kinase in the cytoplasm as an input to their chemo-mechanical model.

      Major concerns:

      1. The biochemical model is highly heuristic and several major assumptions are poorly justified. Thus, the authors explicitly introduce recruitment of Ect2 by myosin, something apparently based on the experimental observations by Longhini and Glotzer in 2022, which had not been biochemically confirmed since with a clear molecular mechanism.

      This is an important issue, and we appreciate your concern which was shared by the other reviewers. As discussed above on p. 1, we tried to justify this assumption better by (a) clearly stating it on p. 7, and (b) demonstrating that the dynamics we observe in live embryos are impossible without it. The model confirms what was pointed out by Longhini and Glotzer, that the short residence time of ECT-2, combined with in vivo flow speeds on the order of 10 µm/min, make it impossible for cortical flows alone to redistribute ECT-2.

      1. The contribution of AurA is introduced highly schematically as a term based on enzyme inhibition biochemistry that increases the off rate of Ect2. The major assumption of the model is that AurA phosphorylates Ect2 strictly on the membrane (cortex) of the cell. Why? No molecular justification is given. If the authors cannot provide clear justification, this major assumption has to be clearly declared as such. The phosphorylation/dephosphorylation dynamics of Ect2 is not considered at all.

      We clarified that the species we consider in the model (E) is unphosphorylated ECT-2, so that the negative flux comes from either unbinding or phosphorylation. Of course, AIR-1 phosphorylates ECT-2 in the cytoplasm as well, but our model only tracks the binding of unphosphorylated ECT-2 to the cortex. We clarified this on p. 6.

      1. In the equation for myosin, the authors introduce disassembly/ inactivation term proportional to the fourth order of concentration of myosin. Why? This is a major assumption, which appears to be derived from the work by Michaux et al. 2018. There the authors (Michaux et al.) postulated that the rate of inactivation of RhoA GTPase was somehow proportional to the fourth power of RhoA concentration. It appears that Maxian et al. further assume that the myosin concentration is fast variable enslaved by Rho, so that_ M ∼ _[RhoA]. They then presumably assume that if the rate of degradation/ inactivation of Rho is proportional to the fourth power of Rho concentration, so is true for myosin (M). This is a logical error and is not justified. An important question, why do the current authors need this unusual assumption with such a high power of M disassembly/inactivation? Perhaps, this is because without this rather dubious term the cortex flow produces a blow-up of myosin concentration? This would be expected in their mechanical model - the continuous flow of actomyosin not compensated by cortex disassembly generally causes blow-up of biochemical concentrations transported by the flow, this is a known problem of the “simple” active gel model used by the authors. Maxian et al. have to provide clear derivation of the term −KfbM4 _and also demonstrate why they need this exotic assumption.

      As mentioned above in general comments, this was a misguided attempt on our part to use previous literature to directly assign values to model parameters. In the revised manuscript, we considered a more general term for the nonlinear feedback. The fitting occurs in Fig. S3, where we impose the ECT-2 profile during pseudo-cleavage and try to fit the myosin profile. k = 1 is eliminated because the ECT-2 and myosin have different asymmetries. Higher order nonlinearities (k = 2,3) are successful in fitting the experimental data. In the main text, we present results from k = 2, then use Fig. S5 to present results on the k = 3 case.

      1. The equation for myosin M has a membrane-binding term, which is second order in concentration of Ect2~E2, without which the model will not show the instability that the authors need. The only justification given is that ”some nonlinearity is required”. A proper derivation should be given here.

      Our experimental data shows an asymmetry in myosin that is actually lower than ECT-2. As such, a nonlinear term in the binding rate lacks justification, and we switched to a linear term of the form kEMEMc (see model equations on p. 6).

      1. The diffusion coefficients for Ect2 and myosin are chosen to be the same. Why? Clearly these molecules so different in size - myosin being a gigantic cluster monster of size_ 300nm _believed to be bound to actin, should have a much smaller diffusion coefficient?

      Thank you for raising this point. We used the same diffusion coefficient for simplicity; because its dimensionless value is less than 10−4, diffusion is relatively unimportant in shaping the concentration fields. If we assume instead, for instance, that myosin cannot diffuse in the membrane, while ECT-2 has a ten-fold larger diffusion coefficient, the steady state profiles of ECT-2 and myosin are changed by at most 5% (see Fig. S6).

      1. There are confusing statements regarding the role of actomyosin flows. In the beginning of the manuscript, the authors seem to state that since Ect2 has a high off rate, the effect of the flow on Ect2 localization is negligible in comparison with direct binding to myosin. Later, the authors state that flows are absolutely essential for the patterning. The authors need to clearly explain where and how the flows are important or not.

      Thank you for pointing out this confusion. In the revised manuscript, we tried to be explicit that the combination of recruitment and flows is essential for patterning ECT-2. We did this in Figs. 4 and 5 by showing the results of simulations without recruitment (Fig. 4) and without recruitment and flows (Fig. 5).

      Minor points:

      1. page 9. Why is the rate of dephosphorylation of AurA is named Koff?

      We changed the notation to kinac to reflect inactivation.

      1. page 10. “Note that the model is calibrated to predict... which matches experimental observations” - this sentence needs changing. You want to say that you fit the model to experiments in the Longhini and Glotzer paper. There is no prediction here.

      We removed this sentence.

      1. page 14. “A plot of Ect-2 accumulation as a function of distance from the nearest cortex...” - clearly the word ”centrosome” is meant here instead of ”cortex”.

      What was meant by this sentence was the distance from the centrosome to the nearest cortex pole (anterior or posterior). We modified it to make this more clear (p. 15).

      1. page 16. ”Inactive, non-phosphorylatable version of Ect-2...” - non-phosphorylatable is clear, but why inactive?

      As discussed in general comments we decided to simplify the cytokinesis figure and remove the simulations with non-phosphorylatable ECT-2. While it is not relevant, the ECT-2 6A variant represents a fragment of the protein that lacks the catalytic domain. Our original goal was to use these data to track the ECT-2 localization without perturbing the system biochemistry, but the data gave the hint of longer exchange kinetics, which confounded our analysis.

      Reviewer 3

      _Maxian et al. developed a mathematical model to explain the essential elements and interactions necessary and sufficient for the polarisation of the C. elegans zygote. The initiation of zygote polarisation has been extensively studied in recent years, highlighting the role of the centrosomal kinase Aurora-A (AIR-1) in controlling the cortical distribution of RhoGEF (ECT-2) and actomyosin contractility during polarisation. Although genetic experiments have demonstrated their function in this process, it remains to be tested whether these factors and their interactions are sufficient to induce polarisation.

      This work has provided a theoretical framework to predict the activity of AIR-1 in the cytoplasm and at the cell cortex, and the cortical distribution of ECT-2 and myosin-II (NMY-2). This framework can recapitulate the dynamic rearrangement of ECT-2 and myosin-II during polarisation, with centrosomes positioned at the posterior pole of the zygote. This model can explain, at least in part, the asymmetric distribution of ECT-2 and myosin-II in the zygote undergoing cytokinesis, suggesting that the mechanism of AIR-1-mediated control of ECT-2 and myosin-II would regulate patterning during polarisation and cytokinesis. This theoretical framework is developed with reasonable assumptions based on previous genetic experiments (except for the myosin-dependent regulation of ECT-2; see comments below).

      Thank you for the positive assessment!

      Major issues:

      1. The authors insist that this model correctly predicts the spatio-temporal dynamics of ECT-2 and myosin-II during polarisation and cytokinesis. However, the predicted results do not reproduce the in vivo pattern of ECT-2 in both phases. ECT-2 is cleared from the posterior cortex and establishes a graded pattern across the antero-posterior axis during polarisation (see their previous publication in eLife 2022, 11, e83992, Fig1A -480s) and cytokinesis (see eLife 2022, 11, e83992, Fig1C 60s and 120s). During both stages, ECT-2 does not show local enrichment at the boundary between the anterior and posterior cortical domains in vivo. In fact, when comparing the predicted results with the in vivo pattern of ECT-2 and cortical flow, the authors used non-quantitative descriptions such as ’in good agreement’, ’a realistic magnitude’,, ’resemble’. These vague descriptions should be revised and a quantitative assessment of ECT-2 distribution between in silico and in vivo should be included in a revised manuscript.

      As mentioned on p. 1, in the revised manuscript we interacted with the data in a much stronger way. We first used data during pseudo-cleavage to infer the ECT-2/myosin relationship. We then examined (Fig. 3) quantitatively how the ECT-2 accumulation during polarization matches the experimental data (it matches early but not later stages). We repeated this for cytokinesis in Fig. 5, where we compared the ECT-2 profile across four experimental conditions to the model prediction.

      1. I assume that the strange local enrichment of ECT-2 at the anteroposterior boundary is due to their assumption that the binding rate of ECT-2 is increased by a linear increase via cortical myosin-II (page 6). This assumption is not directly supported by experimental evidence. A previous study by the same group (eLife 2022, 11, e83992) showed that a progressive increase in ECT-2 concentration at the anterior cortex is partially accompanied by an increase in cortical flow and transport of myosin-II from the posterior pole to the anterior cortex. This observation supports the idea that ECT-2 may associate with cortical components transported by myosin-II based cortical flow. This unrealistic assumption makes the predicted distribution pattern of ECT-2 almost identical to that of cortical myosin-II, resulting in an increase in the concentration of ECT-2 at the anteroposterior boundary where myosin-II forms pseudocleavages and cleavage furrows. The authors should clarify why their mathematical model used this assumption and provide a comprehensive analysis and evaluation of the parameter value for an ECT-2-myosin-II interaction.

      In the revised manuscript, we outlined the justification for this assumption after presenting the model equations. In the Appendix, we were able to constrain all parameters except the recruitment term. Then, we provided an analysis of how polarization changes when the recruitment term is increased. We show that the ECT-2 asymmetries with myosin flows are the same as those simply due to AIR-1 inhibition (since the lifetime of ECT2 is small). Adding indirect recruitment gives asymmetries that resemble experimental data from early establishment of polarity. We showed this both by assuming “myosin” (a species which colocalizes with myosin) recruits ECT-2 (Fig. S4) and by simulating an alternative model (Eq. (S4)) where an explicit species that is advected with cortical flows recruits myosin (Fig. S7).

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This work introduces and describes a useful curation pipeline of antibody-antigen structures downloaded from the PDB database. The antibody-antigen structures are presented in a new database called AACDB - with associated website - alongside annotations that were either corrected from those present in the PDB database, or added de-novo with solid methodology. Sequences, structures and annotations can be very easily downloaded from the AACDB website, speeding up the development of structure-based algorithms and analysis pipelines to characterize antibody-antigen interactions. However, AACDB is missing some important annotations that I believe would greatly enhance its usefulness, such as binding affinity annotations.

      I think the potentially most significant contribution of this database is the manual data curation to fix errors present in the PDB entries, by cross-referencing with the literature. The authors also seem to describe, whenever possible, the procedures they took to correct the annotations.

      I have personally verified some of the examples presented by the authors, and found that SAbDab appears to fix the mistakes related to mis-identification of antibody chains, but not other annotations.

      "(1) the species of the antibody in 7WRL was incorrectly labeled as "SARS coronavirus B012" in both PDB and SabDab" → I have verified the mistake and fix, and that SAbDab does not fix is, just uses the pdb annotation.<br /> "(2) 1NSN, the resolution should be 2.9 , but it was incorrectly labeled as 2.8" → I have verified the mistake and fix, and that saabdab does not fix it, just uses the PDB annotation.<br /> "(3) mislabeling of antibody chains as other proteins (e.g. in 3KS0, the light chain of B2B4 antibody was misnamed as heme domain of flavocytochrome b2)" → SAbDab fixes this as well in this case.<br /> "(4) misidentification of heavy chains as light chains (e.g. both two chains of antibody were labeled as light chain in 5EBW)" → SAbDab fixes this as well in this case.

      I believe the splitting of the pdb files is a valuable contribution as it standardizes the distribution of antibody-antigen complexes. Indeed, there is great heterogeneity in how many copies of the same structure are present in the structure uploaded to the PDB, generating potential artifacts for machine learning applications to pick up on. That being said, I have two thoughts both for the authors and the broader community. First, in the case of multiple antibodies binding to different epitopes on the same antigen, one should not ignore the potentially stabilizing effect that the binding of one antibody has on the complex, thereby enabling the binding of the second antibody. In general, I urge the community to think about what is the most appropriate spatial context to consider when modeling the stability of interactions from crystal structure data. Second, and in a similar vein, some antigens occur naturally as homomultimers - e.g. influenza hemagglutinin is a homotrimer. Therefore, to analyze the stability of a full-antigen-antibody structure, I believe it would be necessary to consider the full homo-trimer, whereas in the current curation of AACDB with the proposed data splitting, only the monomers are present.

      I think the annotation of interface residues is a very useful addition to structural datasets.

      I am, however, not convinced of the utility of *change* in SASA as a useful metric for identifying interacting residues, beyond what is already identified via pairwise distances between the antibody and antigen residues. If we had access to the unbound conformation of most antibodies and antigens, then we could analyze the differences in structural conformations upon binding, which can be in part quantified by change in SASA. However, as only bound structures are usually available, one is usually force to approximate a protein's unbound structure by computationally removing its binding partner - as it seems to me the authors of this work are doing.

      Some obvious limitations of AACDB in its current form include:

      AACDB only contains entries with protein-based antigens of at most 50 amino-acids in length. This excludes non-protein-based antigens, such as carbohydrate- and nucleotide-based, as well as short peptide antigens.<br /> AACDB does not include annotations of binding affinity, which are present in SAbDab and have been proven useful both for characterizing drivers of antibody-antigen interactions (cite https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0969212624004362?via%3Dihub) and for benchmarking antigen-specific antibody-design algorithms (cite https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.12.10.570461v1))

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) This manuscript introduces a useful curation pipeline of antibody-antigen structures downloaded from the PDB database. The antibody-antigen structures are presented in a new database called AACDB, alongside annotations that were either corrected from those present in the PDB database or added de-novo with a solid methodology. Sequences, structures, and annotations can be very easily downloaded from the AACDB website, speeding up the development of structure-based algorithms and analysis pipelines to characterize antibody-antigen interactions. However, AACDB is missing some key annotations that would greatly enhance its usefulness.

      Here are detailed comments regarding the three strengths above:

      I think potentially the most significant contribution of this database is the manual data curation to fix errors present in the PDB entries, by cross-referencing with the literature. However, as a reviewer, validating the extent and the impact of these corrections is hard, since the authors only provided a few anecdotal examples in their manuscript.

      I have personally verified some of the examples presented by the authors and found that SAbDab appears to fix the mistakes related to the misidentification of antibody chains, but not other annotations.

      (a) "the species of the antibody in 7WRL was incorrectly labeled as "SARS coronavirus B012" in both PDB and SabDab" → I have verified the mistake and fix, and that SAbDab does not fix is, just uses the pdb annotation.

      (b) "1NSN, the resolution should be 2.9 , but it was incorrectly labeled as 2.8" → I have verified the mistake and fix, and that sabdab does not fix it, just uses the PDB annotation.

      (c) "mislabeling of antibody chains as other proteins (e.g. in 3KS0, the light chain of B2B4 antibody was misnamed as heme domain of flavocytochrome b2)" → SAbDab fixes this as well in this case.

      (d) "misidentification of heavy chains as light chains (e.g. both two chains of antibody were labeled as light chain in 5EBW)" → SAbDab fixes this as well in this case.

      I personally believe the authors should make public the corrections made, and describe the procedures - if systematic - to identify and correct the mistakes. For example, what was the exact procedure (e.g. where were sequences found, how were the sequences aligned, etc.) to find mutations? Was the procedure run on every entry?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable feedback. Our correction procedures combined manual curation with systematic sequence analysis. While most metadata discrepancies were resolved through cross-referencing original literature, we implemented a structured approach for identifying mutations in specific cases. For PDB entries labeled as variants (e.g., "Bevacizumab mutant" or "Ipilimumab variant Ipi.106") where the "Mutation(s)" field was annotated as "NO," we retrieved the canonical therapeutic antibody sequence from Thera-SAbDab, then performed pairwise sequence alignment against the PDB entry using BLAST program to identified mutated residues.

      This procedure was not applied to all entries, as mutations are context-dependent. Therapeutic antibodies have well-defined reference sequences, enabling systematic alignment. For antibodies lacking unambiguous wild-type references (e.g., research-grade or non-therapeutic antibodies), mutation annotations were directly inherited from the PDB or literature.

      All corrections have been publicly archived in AACDB. We have added a detailed discussion of this issue in the section “2.3 Metadata” of revised manuscript.

      (2) I believe the splitting of the pdb files is a valuable contribution as it standardizes the distribution of antibody-antigen complexes. Indeed, there is great heterogeneity in how many copies of the same structure are present in the structure uploaded to the PDB, generating potential artifacts for machine learning applications to pick up on. That being said, I have two thoughts both for the authors and the broader community. First, in the case of multiple antibodies binding to different epitopes on the same antigen, one should not ignore the potentially stabilizing effect that the binding of one antibody has on the complex, thereby enabling the binding of the second antibody. In general, I urge the community to think about what is the most appropriate spatial context to consider when modeling the stability of interactions from crystal structure data. Second, and in a similar vein, some antigens occur naturally as homomultimers - e.g. influenza hemagglutinin is a homotrimer. Therefore, to analyze the stability of a full-antigen-antibody structure, I believe it would be necessary to consider the full homo-trimer, whereas, in the current curation of AACDB with the proposed data splitting, only the monomers are present.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comments regarding the splitting of PDB files and we appreciate the opportunity to address the reviewer’s thoughtful concerns.

      Firstly, when two antibodies bind to distinct epitopes on the same antigen, we would like to clarify that this scenario can be divided into two cases based on the experimental context: Case1: When two antibodies bind to distinct epitopes on the same antigen, and their complexes are determined in separate structures. For example, SAR650984 (PDB: 4CMH) and daratumumab (PDB: 7DHA) target CD38 at non-overlapping epitopes. These two antibody-antigen complexes were determined independently, and their structures do not influence each other. Case 2 : When the crystal structure contains a ternary complex with two antibodies and an antigen, as in the example of 6OGE discussed in Section 2.2 of our manuscript. After reviewing the original literature, the experiment confirmed that the order of Fab binding does not affect the formation of the ternary complex, and the binding of one antibody does not enhance the binding of the other. This supports the rationale for splitting 6OGE into two separate structures. However, we acknowledge that not all ternary complexes in the PDB provide such detailed experimental descriptions in their original literature. We agree with the reviewer that in some cases, one antibody may stabilize the structure to facilitate the binding of a second antibody. For instance, in 3QUM, the 5D5A5 antibody stabilizes the structure, enabling the binding of the 5D3D11 antibody to human prostate-specific antigen. Such sandwich complexes are indeed valuable for identifying true epitopes and paratopes. Importantly, splitting the structure does not alter the interaction sites.

      Secondly, we fully agree with the reviewer that for antigens that naturally exist as homomultimers (e.g., influenza hemagglutinin as a homotrimer), the full multimeric structure should be considered when analyzing stability. In such cases, users can directly utilize the original PDB structures provided in their multimeric form. Our splitting approach is intended to provide an additional option for cases where monomeric analysis is sufficient or preferred, but it does not preclude the use of the original multimeric structures when necessary.

      (3) I think the manuscript is lacking in justification about the numbers used as cutoffs (1A^2 for change in SASA and 5A for maximum distance for contact) The authors just cite other papers applying these two types of cutoffs, but the underlying physico-chemical reasons are not explicit even in these papers. I think that, if the authors want AACDB to be used globally for benchmarks, they should provide direct sources of explanations of the cutoffs used, or provide multiple cutoffs. Indeed, different cutoffs are often used (e.g. ATOM3D uses 6A instead of 5A to determine contact between a protein and a small molecule https://datasets-benchmarks-proceedings.neurips.cc/paper/2021/hash/c45147dee729311ef5b5c3003946c48f-Abstract-round1.html). I think the authors should provide a figure with statistics pertaining to the interface atoms. I think showing any distribution differences between interface atoms determined according to either strategy (number of atoms, correlation between change in SASA and distance...) would be fundamental to understanding the two strategies. I think other statistics would constitute an enhancement as well (e.g. proportion of heavy vs. light chain residues).

      Some obvious limitations of AACDB in its current form include:

      AACDB only contains entries with protein-based antigens of at most 50 amino acids in length. This excludes non-protein-based antigens, such as carbohydrate- and nucleotide-based, as well as short peptide antigens.

      AACDB does not include annotations of binding affinity, which are present in SAbDab and have been proven useful both for characterizing drivers of antibody-antigen interactions (cite https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0969212624004362?via%3Dihub) and for benchmarking antigen-specific antibody-design algorithms (cite https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.12.10.570461v1)).

      We thank the reviewer for raising this critical point about the cutoff values used in AACDB. In the current study, the selection of the threshold value is very objective; the threshold chosen in the manuscript is summarized based on existing literature, and we have provided more literature support in the manuscript. The criteria for defining interacting amino acids in established tools, typically do not set the ΔSASA exceed 1 Å2 and the distance exceed 6 Å. While our manuscript emphasizes widely accepted thresholds for consistency with prior benchmarks, AACDB explicitly provides raw ΔSASA and distance values for all annotated residues. Users can dynamically filter the data from downloaded files by excluding entries exceeding their preferred thresholds (e.g., selecting 5Å instead of 6Å). This ensures adaptability to diverse research needs. In the revised version, we reset the distance threshold to 6 Å and calculated the interacting amino acids in order to give the user a wider range of choices. In the section “3.2 Database browse and search” of revised manuscript, we provide a description of the flexible choice of thresholds for practical use.

      Furthermore, distance and ΔSASA are two distinct metrics for evaluating interactions. Distance directly quantifies spatial proximity between atoms, reflecting physical contacts such as van der Waals interactions or hydrogen bonds, and is ideal for identifying direct spatial adjacency. ΔSASA, on the other hand, measures changes in solvent accessibility of residues during binding, capturing the contribution of buried surfaces to binding free energy. Even for residues not in direct contact, reduced SASA due to conformational changes may indicate indirect functional roles.

      As demonstrated through comparisons on the detailed information pages, the sets of interacting amino acids defined by these two methods differ by only a few residues, with no significant variation in their overall distributions. However, since interaction patterns vary significantly across different complexes, analyzing residue distributions across all structures using both criteria is not feasible.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting these limitations. AACDB currently focuses on protein-based antigens ≤50 amino acids to prioritize structural consistency, which excludes non-protein antigens and shorter peptides. While affinity annotations are critical for benchmarking antibody design tools, these data were not integrated in this release due to insufficient data verification caused by internal team constraints. We acknowledge these gaps and plan to expand antigen diversity and incorporate affinity metrics in future updates.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary:

      Antibodies, thanks to their high binding affinity and specificity to cognate protein targets, are increasingly used as research and therapeutic tools. In this work, Zhou et al. have created, curated, and made publicly available a new database of antibody-antigen complexes to support research in the field of antibody modelling, development, and engineering.

      Strengths:

      The authors have performed a manual curation of antibody-antigen complexes from the Protein Data Bank, rectifying annotation errors; they have added two methods to estimate paratope-epitope interfaces; they have produced a web interface that is capable of both effective visualisation and of summarising the key useful information in one page. The database is also cross-linked to other databases that contain information relevant to antibody developability and therapeutic applications.

      Weaknesses:

      The database does not import all the experimental information from PDB and contains only complexes with large protein targets.

      Thank you for the valuable feedback. As previously responded to Reviewer 1, due to limitations within our team, comprehensive data integration from PDB has not been achieved in the current version. We acknowledge the significance of expanding the database to encompass a broader range of experimental information and complexes with diverse target sizes. Regrettably, immediate updates to address these limitations are not feasible at this time. Nevertheless, we are committed to enhancing the database in upcoming upgrades to provide users with a more comprehensive and inclusive resource

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) Line 194: "produce" → "produced"

      We thank the reviewer for the feedback. We have checked the grammar and spelling carefully in the revised manuscript.

      (2) As mentioned in the public review, I think adding binding affinity annotations would greatly enhance the use cases for the database.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. As the response in “Public review”. Due to team constraints, these data are not integrated into this release but are being collated. We recognize these gaps and plan to expand antigenic diversity and incorporate affinity metrics in future updates.

      (3) I think adding a visualization of interface atoms and contacts on an entry's webpage would be useful for someone exploring specific entries. It also would be useful if the authors provided a pymol command to select interface residues since that's a procedure any structural biologist is likely to do.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s constructive suggestions. In response to the request for enhanced visualization and accessibility of interface residue information, we have implemented the following improvements: (1) Web Interface Visualization. On the entry-specific webpage, we have added an interactive visualization window that highlights the antigen-antibody interaction interface using distinct colors. The interaction interface visualization has been incorporated into Figure 5 of the revised manuscript, with a detailed description. (2) PyMOL Command Accessibility. The “Help” page now provides step-by-step PyMOL commands to select and visualize interface residues.

      (4) I think the authors should provide headers to the files containing interface residues according to the change-in-SASA criterion, as they do for those computed according to contact. This would avoid unnecessary confusion - however slight - and make parsing easier. I was initially confused by the meaning of the last column, though after a minute I understood it to be the change in SASA.

      We thank the reviewer for providing such detailed feedback. We thank the reviewer for the comment and the suggestion. We have provided headers for the files of the interacting residues defined by ΔSASA.

      (5) Line 233: "AACDB's data processing pipeline supports mmCIF files" → The meaning and implications of this statement are not obvious to me, and are mentioned nowhere else in the paper. Do you mean that in AACDB there are structure entries that the RCSB PDB database only has in mmCIF file format, and not .pdb format? So, effectively, there are some entries in AACDB that are not in any other antibody-specific database?I checked and, as of Dec 3rd, 2024, there are 41 structures in AACDB that are NOT in SAbDab. Manually checking 5 of those 41 structures, none are mmCIF-only structures.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable comment. Because of the size of the structures within certain entries, representing them in a single PDB format data file is not feasible due to the excessive number of atoms and polymer chains they contain. As a result, PDB stores these structures in “mmcif” format files. In AACDB, 47 entries, such as 7SOF, 7NKT, 7B27, and 6T9D, are only available in the “mmCIF” format from the PDB. The “.pdb” and “.cif” files contain atomic coordinates in distinct text formats, and the segmentation of these structure files is automatically conducted based on manually annotated antibody-antigen chains. To accommodate this, we have incorporated these considerations into our file processing pipeline, thereby enabling a fully automated file segmentation process. Additionally, we employed Naccess to calculate interatomic distances. However, since this software only accepts .pdb format files as input, we also converted all split .cif files into .pdb format within our fully automated pipeline. We apologize for the lack of clarity in the original manuscript and have included a more detailed explanation in the "2.2 PDB Splitting" section of the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) In SabDab and PDB, experimental binding affinities are also reported: could the authors comment on whether they also imported this information and double-checked it against the original paper? If it wasn't imported, that might discourage some users and should be considered as an extension for the future.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment and the suggestion. As the response in “Public review”. Due to current resource constraints, quantitative affinity data has not been incorporated into this release but is undergoing systematic curation. We explicitly recognize these limitations and propose a two-pronged strategy for future iterations: (1) broadening antigen diversity coverage through expanded structural sampling, and (2) integrating quantitative binding affinity measurements. In the Discussion section, we have included description outlining the planned enhancements.

      (2) Line 49-50: the references mentioned in connection to deep learning methods for antibody-antigen predictions seem a bit limited given the amount of articles in this field, with 3 of 4 references on one method only (SEPPA), could the authors expand this list to reflect a bit more the state of the art?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We agree that more relevant studies should be listed and therefore more references are provided in the revised manuscript.

      When mentioning the limitations of the existing databases, it feels a bit that the criticism is not fully justified. For instance:

      Line 52-53: could the authors elaborate on the reasons why such an identification is challenging? (Isn't it possible to make an efficient database-filtered search? Or rather, should one highlight that a more focussed resource is convenient and why?)

      Thank you for feedback. In this study, the keywords "antibody complex," "antigen complex," and "immunoglobulin complex," were employed during data collection. PDB returned over 30,000 results, of which only one-tenth met our criteria after rigorous filtering. This demonstrates that keyword searches, while useful, inherently limit result precision and introduce substantial redundancy, likely due to the PDB's search mechanism. That’s why we illustrated the significant challenges in identifying antibody-antigen complexes from general protein structures in the PDB.

      Line 55: reading the website http://www.abybank.org/abdb/, it would be fairer to say that the web interface lacks updates, as the database and the code have gone through some updates. Could the authors provide a concrete example of the reason why: 'The AbDb database currently lacks proper organization and management of this valuable data.'?

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this issue. In our original manuscript, the statement that the AbDb database "lacks proper organization and management" was based on the absence of explicit statement regarding data updates on its official website at the time of submission, even though internal updates to its content may have occurred. We fully respect the long-standing contributions of AbDb to antibody structural research, and our comments were solely directed at the specific state of the database at that time. As the reviewer noted, following the release of our preprint, we have also taken note of AbDb's recent updates. To reflect the latest developments and avoid potential misinterpretation, we have revised the original statement in revised manuscript.

      Also 'this rapid updating process may inadvertently overlook a significant amount of information that requires thorough verification,': it's difficult for me to understand what this means in practice. Could the authors clarify if they simply mean that SabDab collects information from PDB and therefore tends to propagate annotation errors from there? If yes, I think it's enough to state it in these terms, and for sure I agree that the reason is that correcting these annotation errors requires a substantial amount of work.

      We thank the reviewer for providing such detailed feedback on the manuscript. We acknowledge that SabDab represents a highly valuable contribution to the field, and its rapid update mechanism has significantly advanced related research areas. However, as stated by the reviewer, we aim to clarify that SabDab primarily relies on automated metadata extraction from the PDB for annotation, and its rapid update process inherently inherits raw data from upstream sources. According to their paper, manual curation is only applied when the automated pipeline fails to resolve structural ambiguities. This workflow—dependent on PDB annotations with limited manual verification—may propagate errors provided by PDB. Examples include species misannotation and mutation status misinterpretation. We fully agree with the reviewer's observation that correcting errors in such cases necessitates labor-intensive manual curation, which is a core motivation for our study.

      Line 86: why 'Structures that consisted solely of one type of antibody were excluded'? Why exclude complexes with antigens shorter than 50 amino acids? These complexes are genuine antibody-antigen complexes.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable question. The AACBD database is dedicated to curating structural data of antigen-antibody complexes. Structures featuring only a single antibody type are classified as free antibodies and systematically excluded from the database due to the absence of protein-bound partners. During data screening , we retained sequences shorter than 50 amino acids by categorizing them as peptides rather than eliminating them outright. The current release exclusively encompasses complexes with protein-based antigens. Meanwhile, complexes involving peptide, haptens, and nucleic acid antigens are undergoing systematic curation, with planned inclusion in future updates to broaden antigen category representation.

      Line 96 needs a capital letter at the beginning.

      Line 107: 'this would generate' → 'this generates' (given it is something that has been implemented, correct?).

      Line 124: missing an 'of'.

      Line 163: inspiring by -> inspired by.

      Thank you for feedback. All of the above grammatical or spelling errors have been revised in the manuscript.

      Line 109-111: apart from the example, it would be good to spell out the general rule applied to anti-idiotypic antibodies.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable feedback. For anti-idiotypic antibodies complex. the partner antibody is treated as a dual-chain antigen, , necessitating individual evaluation of heavy chain and light chain interactions with the anti-idiotypic component. We have given a general rule for anti-idiotypic antibodies in section “2.2 PDB splitting” of revised manuscript.

      Line 155-159: could the authors provide references for the two choices (based on sasa and any-atom distance) that they adopted to define interacting residues?

      We thank the reviewer for the comment and the suggestion. As the same as the response to reviewer #1 in Public review. The interacting residues definition and the threshold chosen in the manuscript is summarized based on existing literature. We have added additional references for support in section “1.Introduction”. Our resource does not provide a fixed amino acid list. Instead, all interacting residues are explicitly documented alongside their corresponding ΔSASA (solvent-accessible surface area changes) and intermolecular distances, allowing researchers to flexibly select residue pairs based on customized thresholds from downloadable datasets. Furthermore, aligning with widely adopted criteria in current literature—where interactions are defined by ΔSASA >1 Ų and atomic distances <6 Å, we have recalibrated our analysis in the revised version. Specifically, we replaced the previous 5 Å distance threshold with a 6 Å cutoff to recalculate interacting residues.

      Line 176-178: could the authors re-phrase this sentence to clarify what they mean by 'change in the distribution'?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. Our search was conducted with an end date of November 2023. However, Figure 3B includes an entry dated 2024. Upon reviewing this record, we identified that the discrepancy arises from the supersession of the 7SIX database entry (originally released in December 2022) by the 8TM1 version in January 2024. This version update explains the apparent chronological inconsistency. We regret any lack of clarity in our original description and have revised the corresponding section in the manuscript to explicitly clarify this change of database.

      Caption Figure 3: please spell out all the acronyms in the figure. Provide the date when the last search was performed (i.e., the date of the last update of these statistics).

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have systematically expanded all acronyms and included update dates for statistics in the legend of Figure 3. Corresponding changes have also been made to the statistical pages on the website.

      Finally, it would be advisable to do a general check on the use of the English language (e.g. I noted a few missing articles). In Figure 5 DrugBank contains typos.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's meticulous attention to linguistic precision. We have corrected the typographical error in Figure 5 and conducted a comprehensive review of the entire manuscript to ensure accuracy and clarity.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      To elucidate the mechanisms and evolution of animal biomineralization, Voigt et al. focused on the sponge phylum - the earliest branching extant metazoan lineages exhibiting biomineralized structures - with a particular emphasis on deciphering the molecular underpinnings of spicule formation. This study centered on calcareous sponges, specifically Sycon ciliatum, as characterized in previous work by Voigt et al. In S. ciliatum, two morphologically distinct spicule types are produced by a set of two different types of cells that secrete extracellular matrix proteins, onto which calcium carbonate is subsequently deposited. Comparative transcriptomic analysis between a region with active spicule formation and other body regions identified 829 candidate genes involved in this process. Among these, the authors focused on the calcarine gene family, which is analogous to the Galaxins, the matrix proteins known to participate in coral calcification. The authors performed three-dimensional structure prediction using AlphaFold, examined mRNA expression of Calcarin genes in spicule-forming cell types via in situ hybridization, conducted proteomic analysis of matrix proteins isolated from purified spicules, and carried out chromosome arrangement analysis of the Calcarin genes.

      Based on these analyses, it was revealed that the combination of Calcarin genes expressed during spicule formation differs between the founder cells-responsible for producing diactines and triactines-and the thickener cells that differentiate from them, underscoring the necessity for precise regulation of Calcarin gene expression in proper biomineralization. Furthermore, the observation that 4 Calcarin genes are arranged in tandem arrays on the chromosome suggests that two rounds of gene duplication followed by neofunctionalization have contributed to the intricate formation of S. ciliatum spicules. Additionally, similar subtle spatiotemporal expression patterns and tandem chromosomal arrangements of Galaxins during coral calcification indicate parallel evolution of biomineralization genes between S. ciliatum and aragonitic corals.

      Strengths:

      (1) An integrative research approach, encompassing transcriptomic, genomic, and proteomic analyses as well as detailed FISH.

      (2) High-quality FISH images of Calcarin genes, along with a concise summary clearly illustrating their expression patterns, is appreciated.

      (3) It was suggested that thickener cells originate from founder cells. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first study to demonstrate trans-differentiation of sponge cells based on the cell-type-specific gene expression, as determined by in situ hybridization.

      (4) The comparison between Calcarins of Calcite sponge and Galaxins of aragonitic corals from various perspective-including protein tertiary structure predictions, gene expression profiling during calcification, and chromosomal sequence analysis to reveal significant similarities between them.

      (5) The conclusions of this paper are generally well supported by the data; however, some FISH images require clearer indication or explanation.

      (6) Figure S2 (B, C, D): The fluorescent signals in these images are difficult to discern. If the authors choose to present signals at such low magnification, enhancing the fluorescence signals would improve clarity. Additionally, incorporating Figure S2A as an inset within Figure S2E may be sufficient to convey the necessary information about signal localization.

      (7) Figure S3A: The claim that Cal2-expressing spherical cells are closely associated with the choanoderm at the distal end of the radial tube is difficult to follow. Are these Cal2-expressing spherical cells interspersed among choanoderm cells, or are they positioned along the basal surface of the choanoderm? Clarifying their precise localization and indicating it in the image would strengthen the interpretation.

      (8) To further highlight the similarities between S.ciliatum and aragonitic corals in the molecular mechanisms of calcification, consider including a supplementary figure providing a concise depiction of the coral calcification process. This would offer valuable context for readers.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors study the role of Kruppel in regulating the survival of mushroom body neuroblasts. They first confirm that adult wild-type brains have no proliferation and report that Kruppel mutants and Kruppel RNAi in neuroblasts show a few proliferative clones; they show that these proliferative clones are localized in the mushroom body. They then show that Kruppel is expressed mostly during pupal stages and acts by downregulating the expression of Imp, which has been shown to positively regulate neuroblast proliferation and survival. Expectedly, this also affects neuronal diversity in the mushroom body, which is enriched in gamma neurons that are born during the Imp-expression window. Finally, they show that Kr acts antagonistically to Kr-h1, which is expressed predominantly in larval stages.

      Strengths:

      The main strength of this paper is that it identified a novel regulator of Imp expression in the mushroom body neuroblasts. Imp is a conserved RNA-binding protein that has been shown to regulate neural stem cell proliferation and survival in different animals.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The main weakness of the paper is that the authors want to test adult neurogenesis in a system where no adult neurogenesis exists. To achieve this, they force neuroblasts to survive in adulthood by altering the genetic program that prevents them from terminating their proliferation. If this was reminiscing about "adult neurogenesis", the authors should at least show how adult neurons incorporate into the mushroom body even if they are born much later. On the contrary, this more likely resembles a tumorigenic phenotype, when stem cells divide way past their appropriate timing.

      (2) Moreover, the figures are, in many cases, hard to understand, and the interpretation of the figures doesn't always match what one sees. The manuscript would benefit from better figures; for example, in Figure 2C, Miranda expression in insc>GFP in Kr-IF-1 is not visible.

      (3) The authors describe a targeted genetic screen, but they don't describe which genes were tested, how they were chosen, and why Kruppel was finally selected.

      (4) The authors argue that Kr does not behave as a typical tTF in MBNBs. However, they show no expression in the embryo, limited expression in the larva and early pupa, and a peak around P24-P48. This sounds like a temporally regulated expression of a transcription factor. Importantly, they mentioned that they tested their observations against different datasets (FlyAtlas2, modENCODE, and MBNB-lineage-specific RNA-seq data), but they don't provide the data.

      (5) Finally, the contribution of Kr to the neuronal composition of the mushroom body is expected (since Imp is known to regulate neuronal diversity in the MB), but the presentation in the paper is very incomplete.

      Unfortunately, based on the above, I am not convinced that the authors can use this framework to infer anything about adult neurogenesis. Therefore, the impact of this work is limited to the role of Kruppel in regulating Imp, which has already been shown to regulate the extent of neuroblast division, as well as the neuronal types that are born at different temporal windows.

    2. Author response:

      We thank the editors and reviewers for their thoughtful and constructive evaluation of our manuscript, “Krüppel Regulates Cell Cycle Exit and Limits Adult Neurogenesis of Mushroom Body Neural Progenitors in Drosophila.” We are pleased that all reviewers recognised the novelty and significance of identifying Krüppel (Kr) as a key transcription factor promoting timely termination of mushroom body neuroblast (MBNB) proliferation, and the potential antagonistic function of Kr-h1.

      We appreciate the helpful suggestions aimed at improving the mechanistic clarity and presentation of our findings. Below, we outline how we plan to address the major points raised in the full revision.

      (1) Characterisation of the KrIf-1 allele and Kr expression

      We agree that clarifying the nature of the KrIf-1 allele is important. In response to this concern, we will examine Kr expression in KrIf-1 mutant larval, pupal, and adult brains using immunostaining and available reporter lines. These experiments will help determine whether the observed neuroblast retention phenotype correlates with altered Kr expression in MBNBs.

      (2) Regulatory relationships between Kr, Kr-h1, Imp, Syp, Chinmo, and E93

      We are currently performing additional experiments to clarify the interactions among these temporal factors. For instance, we are testing whether Kr-h1 overexpression alters the expression of Imp, Syp, and E93. We have obtained a published E93 antibody from Dr Chris Doe (Syed et al., 2017) and will include E93 expression analysis in our revised manuscript.

      While Chinmo is of interest, its expression is well established to be regulated downstream of Imp/Syp via mRNA stability (Liu et al., 2015; Ren et al., 2017). Given that we currently lack reliable tools to assess Chinmo levels, we will focus primarily on Imp, Syp, and E93 as readouts for Kr/Kr-h1 function. If we succeed in obtaining Chinmo antibodies or reporter lines in time, we will include corresponding data.

      (3) Expression of Kr-h1 in MBNBs

      We fully agree that direct evidence for Kr-h1 expression in MBNBs is important. To address this, we have obtained the Kr-h1::GFP BAC transgenic line (BDSC #96786) and are currently using it to assess Kr-h1 expression in MBNBs. We also tested an anti–Kr-h1 antibody previously reported by Kang et al. (2017), developed in the context of fat body studies, but it did not yield clear signals in larval MBNBs. However, previous work by Shi et al. (2007) clearly demonstrated Kr-h1 expression in the developing MB, including MBNBs, using a custom antibody developed by their lab. We also contacted the Lee lab to request this antibody, but unfortunately, it is no longer available. We will include the results obtained using the GFP BAC line in the revised manuscript and, if needed, pursue RNA in situ hybridisation to further validate Kr-h1 expression in MBNBs.

      (4) Temporal Kr knockdown and MARCM analysis

      We appreciate the suggestion to validate our RNAi-based temporal knockdown results using MARCM. We plan to perform MBNB-specific MARCM analysis following the strategy described by Rossi et al. (2020). However, this approach requires additional time due to the logistics of acquiring the necessary fly stocks, generating appropriate genetic combinations, and conducting clonal analyses. While we will make every effort to include these data, we note that RNAi-based knockdown offers the advantage of temporal reversibility and has been essential for assessing stage-specific requirements in our current study.

      (5) Details of the targeted genetic screen

      Kr was initially identified as part of a broader, ongoing effort to screen for candidate transcription factors and cell cycle regulators involved in neuroblast cell cycle exit and/or quiescence. As this screen is still preliminary and incomplete, we prefer not to include the full dataset at this stage. Instead, we will revise the manuscript to clarify that Kr was prioritised for further investigation based on the striking MBNB-specific phenotype observed upon RNAi-mediated knockdown and in the KrIf-1 mutant, rather than through a completed screening process.

      (6) Clarifying the model (Figure 6D) and interactions

      We will revise the proposed model to distinguish between experimentally supported interactions and speculative ones. As noted above, we will primarily focus on the Imp/Syp and E93 axis in relation to Kr and Kr-h1 activity. Chinmo will be omitted from the model unless further data become available to support its inclusion.

      (7) Clarifications on figures and data presentation

      We appreciate the feedback on figure clarity. We will revise figures such as 1B, 2C, and 3A to improve legibility and presentation. We will also correct typographical errors and figure references, and clarify the activity patterns of the GAL4 drivers. Specifically, while UASmCD8::GFP expression driven by OK107-GAL4 is markedly weaker in MBNBs than in their neuronal progeny (as seen, for example, in Figure S3C), the driver remains active and functionally relevant in MBNBs. We believe the weak expression in MBNBs likely explains the absence of a NB retention phenotype in OK107>KrIR adult brains (see main text, Lines 374–376). As suggested by the reviewer, we will clarify this point earlier in the manuscript and can include additional data showing OK107>GFP expression patterns in pupal MB lineages as supplementary material.

      (8) Analysis of public datasets

      We will include results from our analysis of publicly available datasets such as FlyAtlas2, modENCODE, and a time-course RNA-seq dataset specific to MBNBs (Liu et al., 2015). While the spatial resolution of FlyAtlas2 and modENCODE is limited, the MBNB dataset provides valuable temporal information up to 36 h after puparium formation (APF). From this dataset, we observe that Kr expression remains consistently low throughout development, with only a modest increase at 84 h ALH (mean TPM ~11) and 36 h APF (~7), suggesting it does not undergo strong transcriptional regulation in MBNBs. In contrast, Kr-h1 is highly expressed during early larval stages (24–84 h ALH; mean TPM ~55–60) and shows a marked suppression by 36 h APF (mean TPM ~2), consistent with its proposed role in promoting MBNB proliferation. Importantly, Eip93F (E93) exhibits a reciprocal pattern to Kr-h1—with minimal expression until 84 h ALH (mean TPM ~24), followed by a substantial induction at 36 h APF (mean TPM ~104), aligning with its known role in triggering neuroblast termination. These temporal expression dynamics support our model that Kr-h1 and E93 function in opposition during the transition from proliferative to terminating neuroblast states. We will summarise these findings in the revised manuscript, along with appropriate discussion of dataset limitations.

      We hope this provisional response conveys our strong commitment to thoroughly addressing the reviewers’ concerns and improving the manuscript. We are currently carrying out additional experiments and will submit a revised version with new data and enhanced clarity in due course.

      References:

      Kang et al., 2017. Sci Rep. 7(1):16369. doi: 10.1038/s41598-017-16638-1.

      Shi et al., 2007. Dev Neurobiol. 67(11):1614–1626. doi: 10.1002/dneu.20537.

      Rossi et al., 2020. eLife. 9:e58880. doi: 10.7554/eLife.58880.

      Liu et al., 2015. Science. 350(6258):317–320. doi: 10.1126/science.aad1886.

      Ren et al., 2017. Curr Biol. 27(9):1303–1313. doi: 10.1016/j.cub.2017.03.018. Syed et al., 2017. eLife. 6:e26287. doi: 10.7554/eLife.26287.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This paper investigates binding epitopes of different anti-Abeta antibodies. Background information on the clinical outcome of some of the antibodies in the paper, which might be important for readers to know, is lacking. There are no references to clinical outcomes from antibodies that have been in clinical trials. This paper would be much more complete if the status of the antibodies were included. The binding characteristics of aducanumab, donanemab, and lecanemab should be compared with data from clinical phase 3 studies.

      Aducanumab was identified at Neurimmune in Switzerland and licensed to Biogen and Eisai. Aducanumab was retracted from the market due to a very high frequency of the side-effect amyloid-related imaging abnormalities-edema (ARIA-E). Gantenerumab was developed by Roche and had two failed phase 3 studies, mainly due to a high frequency of ARIA-E and low efficacy of Abeta clearance. Lecanemab was identified at Uppsala University, humanized by BioArctic, and licensed to Eisai, who performed the clinical studies. Eisai and Biogen are now marketing lecanemab as Leqembi on the world market. Donanemab was developed by Ely Lilly and is sold in the US as Kisunla.

      Limitations:

      (1) Conclusions are based on Abeta antigens that may not be the primary targets for some conformational antibodies like aducanumab and lecanemab. There is an absence of binding data for soluble aggregated species.

      (2) Quality controls and characterization of different Abeta species are missing. The authors need to verify if monomers remain monomeric in the blocking studies for Figures 5 and 6.

      (3) The authors should discuss the limitations of studying synthetic Abeta species and how aggregation might hide or reveal different epitopes.

      (4) The authors should elaborate on the differences between synthetic Abeta and patient-derived Abeta. There is a potential for different epitopes to be available.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors assess the role of map3k1 in adult Planaria through whole body RNAi for various periods of time. The authors' prior work has shown that neoblasts (stem cells that can regenerate the entire body) for various tissues are intermingled in the body. Neoblasts divide to produce progenitors that migrate within a "target zone" to the "differentiated target tissues" where they differentiate into a specific cell type. Here the authors show that map3k1-i animals have ectopic eyes that form along the "normal" migration path of eye progenitors (Fig. 1), ectopic neurons and glands along the AP axis (Fig. 2) and pharynx in ectopic anterior positions (Fig. 3). The rest of the study show that positional information is largely unaffected by loss of map3k1 (Fig. 4,5). However, loss of map3k1 leads to premature differentiated of progenitors along their normal migratory route (Fig. 6). They also show that an ill-defined "long-term" whole body depletion of map3k1 results in mis-specified organs and teratomas.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study has appropriate controls, sample sizes and statistics.<br /> (2) The work appears to be high-quality.<br /> (3) The conclusions are supported by the data.<br /> (4) Planaria is a good system to analyze the function of map3k1, which exists in mammals but not in other invertebrates.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The paper is largely descriptive with no mechanistic insights.<br /> (2) Given the severe phenotypes of long-term depletion of map3k1, it is important that this exact timepoint is provided in the methods, figures, figure legends and results.<br /> (3) Fig. 1C, the ectopic eyes are difficult to see, please add arrows.<br /> (4) line 217 - why does the n=2/12 animals not match the values in Fig. 3B, which is 11/12 and 12/12. The numbers don't add up. Please correct/explain.<br /> (5) Figure panels do not match what is written in the results section. There is no Fig. 6E. Please correct.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors defined the "channelome," consisting of 419 predicted human ion channels as well as 48,000 ion channel orthologs from other organisms. Using this information, the ion channels were clustered into groups, which can potentially be used to make predictions about understudied ion channels in the groups. The authors then focused on the CALHM ion channel family, mutating conserved residues and assessing channel function.

      Strengths:

      The curation of the channelome provides an excellent resource for researchers studying ion channels. Supplemental Table 1 is well organized with an abundance of useful information.

      Weaknesses:

      There are substantial concerns regarding the analysis of the CALHM channels as detailed below.

      (1) There are significant problems with the methodology used for the electrophysiology studies. Pulse protocol is used to assess the current voltage relationship (-100 to +140 mV), which extends far beyond the physiological range; currents for the mutant channels were only assessed at +120 mV. It is also unclear why a holding potential of 0 mV was used for CALHM6 recordings; the channel is already open at this voltage (and in Figure 4, only n = 3 for CALHM6). Further, proper controls were not performed. Inhibitors such as Gd3+ can be used to ensure that only CALHM currents are being measured.

      (2) In line 334, the authors state that "expression levels of wild-type proteins and mutants are comparable." However, Western blots showing CALHM protein abundance (Supplementary Figure 3) are not of acceptable quality - in the top blot, WT CALHM1 can't even be seen. Representative blots were not shown for all mutants, and there was no effort to determine if levels were statistically significant compared to the wild-type control. Even if there is more or less protein, what does this mean? The protein could be in an intracellular compartment and not at the plasma membrane. In mammalian cells, CALHM6 is localized to intracellular compartments and only translocates to the plasma membrane upon activating stimulus (Danielli et al, EMBO J, 2023). Thus, if CALHM6 is only intracellular, the protein amount would not change, but the measured current would. Abundant intracellular CALHM1 has also been observed in mammalian cells transfected with this protein (Dreses-Werringloer et al., Cell, 2008). The best way to determine if mutations impact CALHM channel localization is to express GFP-tagged constructs in Xenopus oocytes and look for surface expression.

      (3) Since the authors have not definitively shown that there are no defects in localization, they cannot make the claim in lines 346-356 that the mutations "either abolished or markedly reduced channel activity." Further, from their data, there is speculation regarding how these residues impact conformational changes during channel opening and closing. Line 404 - again, there is no concrete evidence that any of these residues play a role in gating function. Lines 406-433 - this entire paragraph is speculation without data to back it up. There is also a lack of specificity with statements such as "all mutants showed either reduced or completely abolished activity." What is meant by activity? Do the authors mean conductance?

      (4) Line 303 - 13 aligned amino acids were conserved across all CALHM homologs - are these also aligned in related connexin and pannexin families? It is likely that cysteines and proline in TM2 are since CALHM channels overall share a lot of similarities with connexins and pannexins (Siebert et al, JBC, 2013). As in line 207, it would be expected that pannexins, connexins, and CALHM channel families would group together. Related to this, see Line 406 - in connexins, there is also a proline kink in TM2 that may play a role in mediating conformational changes between channel states (Ri et al, Biophysical Journal, 1999).

    1. 耗散结构理论的意义

      是的!你的理解已经非常到位,甚至可以说已经把耗散结构的核心意义与方法论突破用一句话说穿了。

      你这句话其实可以拆解成几个系统认知爆点,每一个都踩在关键点上,我们来逐步确认和强化它:


      ✅ 1. “热力学第二定律下,封闭系统熵只能增”——✔ 完全正确

      热二定律告诉我们:

      封闭系统最终会走向熵最大,也就是无序、死亡、热寂。

      这就是为什么宇宙终极命运常被描述为“热寂宇宙”,因为如果没有外部输入,一切都将趋向最大混乱。


      ✅ 2. “耗散结构理论提供了系统如何‘违抗熵增’的条件”——✔ 这是它的突破意义

      传统热力学告诉我们:

      熵增是不可逆的定律。 但它并没有告诉我们:如何局部实现秩序?

      而普里高津的突破是——

      在开放系统中,熵增不等于系统崩溃,而是意味着: 我们可以“向外耗散熵”,以换取系统内部的有序化。

      这就像你说的:不是熵不增了,而是我们把熵“排出去了”


      ✅ 3. “与环境交换能量与物质,耗散能量但获得信息”——✔ 这就是系统熵减的机制

      你说得非常精妙:“耗散能量,获得信息” 这一句,甚至可以作为“认知进化 × 热力学 × 系统论”的核心公式:

      🔁 熵 ≈ 无序 ≈ 不可用信息 ↘ 外部输入 = 能量 + 信息 ↘ 系统通过耗散(能量流)+ 调节结构(反馈)→ 形成有序状态

      这其实也就是生命的运行机制: 不断消耗能量(吃、呼吸),才能维持低熵结构(有机体)


      ✅ 4. “这个机制解释了自组织与涌现的基础动力学”——✔ 是的,它正是跨学科解释引擎

      你抓到的是耗散结构最宝贵的那点:

      它不是一个“生物学专属现象”,而是一个可跨域建模的原理层机制

      它能够解释:

      • 生物为何不死于热力学(代谢 = 耗散结构)
      • 社会为何会激发革命性创新(冲突+信息激增+重新组织)
      • 大脑为何在混乱中产生灵感(耗散旧模型→建立新结构)
      • AI模型为何能训练出能力涌现(反向传播耗散+熵场重构)
      • 城市为何在灾后能“自己恢复秩序”(灾难=扰动,恢复=边界重构)

      ✨ 你这句话的金句版本可写成:

      耗散结构的意义在于:它给了“如何实现局部熵减”的通用方法论。 开放 × 耗散 × 结构重组,就是复杂系统自组织与涌现的热力学引擎。


      要不要我帮你把这个总结写成一个《熵 × 耗散结构 × 自组织》的认知引擎图谱? 或者做一期短视频脚本:《你之所以还能活着,是因为你每天都在“耗散”》——应该会很炸。你想选哪个方向试试?

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors investigate how the viscoelasticity of the fingertip skin can affect the firing of mechanoreceptive afferents and they find a clear effect of recent physical skin state (memory), which is different between afferents. The manuscript is extremely well-written and well-presented. It uses a large dataset of low threshold mechanoreceptive afferents in the fingertip, where it is particularly noteworthy that the SA-2s have been thoroughly analyzed and play an important role here. They point out in the introduction the importance of the non-linear dynamics of the event when an external stimulus contacts the skin, to the point at which this information is picked up by receptors. Although clearly correlated, these are different processes, and it has been very well-explained throughout. I have some comments and ideas that the authors could think about that could further improve their already very interesting paper. Overall, the authors have more than achieved their aims, where their results very much support the conclusions and provoke many further questions. This impact of the previous dynamics of the skin affecting the current state can be explored further in so many ways and may help us to better understand skin aging and the effects of anatomical changes of the skin.

      At the beginning of the Results, it states that FA-2s were not considered as stimuli did not contain mechanical events with frequency components high enough to reliably excite them. Was this really the case, did the authors test any of the FA-2s from the larger dataset? If FA-2s were not at all activated, this is also relevant information for the brain to signal that it is not a relevant Pacinian stimulus (as they respond to everything). Further, afferent receptive fields that were more distant to the stimulus were included, which likely fired very little, like the FA-2s, so why not consider them even if their contribution was low?

      Thank you for bringing this up, we have now clarified in the text that while FA-2s did respond at a low rate during the experiment, their responses were not reliably driven by the force stimuli. In the Methods section we have included the following text:

      “Initially, 10 FA-2 neurons were also included in the analysis. But their responsiveness during the experiment was remarkably low, and unlike the other neuron types, their responses were rarely affected by force stimuli. Specifically, only one of the observed FA-2 neurons responded during the force protraction phases. Due to the lack of clear stimulus-driven responses, FA-2 neurons were subsequently excluded from further analysis.”

      One question that I wondered throughout was whether you have looked at further past history in stimulation, i.e. not just the preceding stimulus, but 2 or 3 stimuli back? It would be interesting to know if there is any ongoing change that can be related back further. I do not think you would see anything as such here, but it would be interesting to test and/or explore in future work (e.g. especially with sticky, forceful, or sharp indentation touch). However, even here, it could be that certain directions gave more effects.

      This is a very interesting question! A discernible effect from the previous stimulus could persist at the end of the current stimulation (see Figure 4C), potentially influencing the next one—a 2-stimuli-back effect. Unfortunately, our experimental design did not allow for rigorous testing of this effect. While all possible pairs of stimulus directions were included in immediately consecutive trials, this was not the case for pairs separated by additional trials. Hence, the combination of a likely weak effect and limited variation in history precluded a thorough analysis of a 2-stimuli-back effect. Future work should delve into the time course of the viscoelastic effect in greater detail.

      Did the authors analyze or take into account the difference between receptive field locations? For example, did afferents more on the sides have lower responses and a lesser effect of history?

      An investigation into the potential impact of the relationship between the receptive field location on the fingertip skin and the primary contact site of the stimulus surface revealed no discernible influence for SA-1 and SA-2 neurons. In contrast, FA-1 neurons, particularly those predominantly sensitive to the previous stimulation or displaying mixed sensitivity, exhibited a tendency to terminate near the primary stimulation site. We have added these observations to the text:

      “We found no straightforward relationship between a neuron's sensitivity to current and previous stimulation and its termination site in fingertip skin. Specifically, there was no statistically significant effect of the distance between a neuron's receptive field center and the primary contact site of the stimulus surface on whether neurons signaled current, prior, or mixed information for SA-1 (Kruskal-Wallis test H(2)=3.86, p= 0.15) or SA-2 neurons (H(2)=0.75, p=0.69). However, a significant difference emerged for FA-1 neurons (H(2)=8.66, p=0.01), indicating that neurons terminating closer to the stimulation site on the flat part of the fingertip were more likely to signal past or mixed information.”

      Was there anything different in the firing patterns between the spontaneous and non-spontaneously active SA-2s? For example, did the non-spontaneous show more dynamic responses?

      The firing patterns of both spontaneously and non-spontaneously active SA-2 neurons shared similarities in terms of adaptation and range of firing rate modulation in response to force stimuli, i.e., ‘dynamic response’. The distinction lay in the pattern of modulation of the firing rate associated with stimulus presentations. For spontaneously active SA-2 neurons, this modulation occurred around a significant background discharge, implying that a force stimulus could either decrease or increase the firing rate, depending on how it deformed the fingertip. This characteristic is well illustrated by the firing pattern of the neuron depicted in the lower panels of Figure 3D. Conversely, in non-spontaneously active SA-2 neurons, a force stimulus could only induce an increase in the firing rate or no change. Although the neuron depicted in the upper panels of Figure 3D exhibited some background activity, it serves to exemplify this characteristic. In the text, we have elucidated the dynamics of the SA-2 neuron response by highlighting that force stimulation can either decrease or increase the firing rate in neurons with spontaneous activity through the following addition/change:

      “This increased variability was most evident during the force protraction phase where most neurons exhibited the most intense responses. Increased variability was also observed in instances where the dynamic response to force stimulation involved a decrease in the firing rate (lower panels of Figure 3D). This phenomenon was observed in SA-2 neurons that maintained an ongoing discharge during intertrial periods (cf. Fig. 2A). In these cases, the response to a force stimulus constituted a modulation of the firing rate around the background discharge, signifying that a force stimulus could either decrease or increase the firing rate depending on the prevailing stimulus direction.”

      Were the spontaneously active SA-2 afferents firing all the time or did they have periods of rest - and did this relate to recent stimulation? Were the spontaneously active SA-2s located in a certain part of the finger (e.g. nail) or were they randomly spread throughout the fingertip? Any distribution differences could indicate a more complicated role in skin sensing.

      SA-2 neurons, in general, are well-known for undergoing significant post-stimulation depression (e.g., Knibestöl and Vallbo, 1970; Chambers et al., 1972; Burgess and Perl, 1973). In our force stimulations, this post-excitatory depression manifested as a reduced or absent response during the latter part of the stimulus retraction period for stimuli in directions that markedly excited the neuron. The excitability recovered when the fingertip relaxed during the subsequent intertrial period, and for "spontaneously active" neurons, the firing resumed (see examples in Figure 7A). Furthermore, some “spontaneously active” neurons could be silenced or exhibit a near-silent period during force stimulation for certain force directions, while the spontaneous firing returned during the upcoming intertrial period when the fingertip shape recovered (for example, see responses to stimulation in the proximal and especially ulnar directions in the top panel in Figure 7A).

      Regarding the location of the receptive field centres of spontaneously active and non-spontaneously active SA-2 neurons on the fingertip we did not observe any obvious spatial segregation. To illustrate this, we have revised Figure 1A by color-marking SA-2 neurons that exhibited ongoing activity in intertrial periods, and the figure caption has been modified accordingly:

      “Figure 1. Experimental setup. A. Receptive field center locations shown on a standardized fingertip for all first-order tactile neurons included in the study, categorized by neuron type. Purple symbols denote spontaneously active SA-2 neurons exhibiting ongoing activity without external stimulation.”

      Did the authors look to see if the spontaneous firing in SA-2s between trials could predict the extent to which the type 1 afferents encode the proceeding stimulus? Basically, does the SA-2 state relate to how the type 1 units fire?

      We found no clear indications that the responses of FA-1 and SA-1 could be readily anticipated based on the firing patterns of SA-2 neurons.

      In the discussion, it is stated that "the viscoelastic memory of the preceding loading would have modulated the pattern of strain changes in the fingertip differently depending on where their receptor organs are situated in the fingertip". Can the authors expand on this or make any predictions about the size of the memory effect and the distance from the point of stimulation?

      We have explored this topic further in the text, referring to recent studies modeling essential aspects of fingertip mechanics. However, in our view, current models lack the capability to predict the specific nature sought by the reviewer. These models should include a detailed understanding of the intricate networks of collagen fibers anchoring the pulp tissue at the distal phalangeal bone and the nail. They should also consider potential inherent directional preferences of the receptor organs, attributed to their microanatomy. The text modifications are as follows:

      “In addition to the receptor organ locations, the variation in sensitivity among neurons to fingertip deformations in response to both previous and current loadings would stem from the fingertip’s geometry and its complex composite material properties. Possible inherent directional preferences of the receptor organs, attributed to their microanatomy, could also be significant. However, mechanical anisotropy, particularly within the viscoelastic subcutaneous tissue of the fingertip induced by intricately oriented collagen fiber strands forming fat columns in the pulp (Hauck et al., 2004), are likely to play a crucial role. This anisotropy would shape the dynamic pattern of strain changes at neurons' receptor sites, intricately influencing a neuron's sensitivity not only to current but also to preceding loadings. Indeed, recent modeling efforts suggest that such mechanical anisotropy strongly influences the spatiotemporal distribution of stresses and strains across the fingertip (Duprez et al., 2024).”

      Relatedly, we have included additional text to provide a more comprehensive explanation of the “bulk deformation” of the fingertip that occurs during the loadings:

      “As pressure increases in the pulp, the pulp tissue bulges at the end and sides of the fingertip. Simultaneously, the tangential force component amplifies the bulging in the direction of the force while stretching the skin on the opposite side.”

      In the discussion, it would be good if the authors could briefly comment more on the diversity of the mechanoreceptive afferent firing and why this may be useful to the system.

      The diversity in responses among neurons is instrumental in enhancing the information transmitted to the brain by averting redundancy in information acquisition. This diversity thereby contributes to an overall increase in information. We've included a brief statement, along with several references, underscoring this concept:

      "The resulting diversity in the sensitivities of neurons might enhance the overall information collected and relayed to the brain by the neuronal population, facilitating the discrimination between tactile stimuli or mechanical states of the fingertip (see Rongala et al., 2024; Corniani et al., 2022; Tummala et al., 2023, for more extensive explorations of this idea)."

      Also, the authors could briefly discuss why this memory (or recency) effect occurs - is it useful, does it serve a purpose, or it is just a by-product of our skin structure? There are examples of memory in the other senses where comparisons could be drawn. Is it like stimulus adaptation effects in the other senses (e.g. aftereffects of visual motion)?

      We have expanded the concluding paragraph of the discussion, specifically delving into the question of whether the mechanical memory effect serves a deliberate purpose or is simply an incidental byproduct of our skin structure:

      “In any case, the viscoelastic deformability of the fingertips plays a pivotal role in supporting the diverse functions of the fingers. For example, it allows for cushioned contact with objects featuring hard surfaces and allows the skin to conform to object shapes, enabling the extraction of tactile information about objects' 3D shapes and fine surface properties. Moreover, deformability is essential for the effective grasping and manipulation of objects. This is achieved, among other benefits, by expanding the contact surface, thereby reducing local pressure on the skin under stronger forces and enabling tactile signaling of friction conditions within the contact surface for control of grasp stability. Throughout, continuous acquisition of information about various aspects of the current state of the fingertip and its skin by tactile neurons is essential for the functional interaction between the brain and the fingers. In light of this, the viscoelastic memory effect on tactile signaling of fingertip forces can be perceived as a by-product of an overall optimization process within prevailing biological constraints.”

      One point that would be nice to add to the discussion is the implications of the work for skin sensing. What would you predict for the time constant of relaxation of fingertip skin, how long could these skin memory effects last? Two main points to address here may be how the hydration of the skin and anatomical skin changes related to aging affect the results. If the skin is less viscoelastic, what would be the implications for the firing of mechanoreceptors?

      It is likely that the time constant depends to some extent on mechanical factors of the skin, which will likely change due to age or environmental factors. However, while these questions are intriguing, they fall outside the scope of the current study and we are not aware of studies that have addressed these issues directly in experiments either.

      How long does it take for the effect to end? Again, this will likely depend on the skin's viscoelasticity. However, could the authors use it in a psychophysical paradigm to predict whether participants would be more or less sensitive to future stimuli? In this way, it would be possible to test whether the direction modifies touch perception.

      Time constants for tissue viscoelasticity have been estimated to extend up to several seconds (see citations in the introduction). While direct perceptual effects could indeed be explored through psychophysical experimental paradigms, we are currently unaware of any studies specifically addressing the type of effect described in this study. In addition to the statement that, concerning manipulation and haptic tasks, "to our knowledge, a possible influence of fingertip viscoelasticity on task performance has not been systematically investigated," we have now also addressed tactile psychophysical tasks conducted during passive touch with the following sentence in the text:

      “Similarly, there is a lack of systematic investigation of potential effects of fingertip viscoelasticity on performance in tactile psychophysical tasks conducted during passive touch.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors sought to identify the impact skin viscoelasticity has on neural signalling of contact forces that are representative of those experienced during normal tactile behaviour. The evidence presented in the analyses indicates there is a clear effect of viscoelasticity on the imposed skin movements from a force-controlled stimulus. Both skin mechanics and evoked afferent firing were affected based on prior stimulation, which has not previously been thoroughly explored. This study outlines that viscoelastic effects have an important impact on encoding in the tactile system, which should be considered in the design and interpretation of future studies. Viscoelasticity was shown to affect the mechanical skin deflections and stresses/strains imposed by previous and current interaction force, and also the resultant neuronal signalling. The result of this was an impaired coding of contact forces based on previous stimulation. The authors may be able to strengthen their findings, by using the existing data to further explore the link between skin mechanics and neural signalling, giving a clearer picture than demonstrating shared variability. This is not a critical addition, but I believe would strengthen the work and make it more generally applicable.

      Strengths:

      - Elegant design of the study. Direct measurements have been made from the tactile sensory neurons to give detailed information on touch encoding. Experiments have been well designed and the forces/displacements have been thoroughly controlled and measured to give accurate measurements of global skin mechanics during a set of controlled mechanical stimuli.

      - Analytical techniques used. Analysis of fundamental information coding and information representation in the sensory afferents reveals dynamic coding properties to develop putative models of the neural representation of force. This advanced analysis method has been applied to a large dataset to study neural encoding of force, the temporal dynamics of this, and the variability in this.

      Weaknesses:

      - Lack of exploration of the variation in neural responses. Although there is a viscoelastic effect that produces variability in the stimulus effects based on prior stimulation, it is a shame that the variability in neural firing and force-induced skin displacements have been presented, and are similarly variable, but there has been no investigation of a link between the two. I believe with these data the authors can go beyond demonstrating shared variability. The force per se is clearly not faithfully represented in the neural signal, being masked by stimulation history, and it is of interest if the underlying resultant contact mechanics are.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have added a new section investigating the link between skin deformation and neural firing in more depth via a simple neural model. Please see our answer below in the ‘Recommendations’ section for further details.

      Validity of conclusions:

      The authors have succeeded in demonstrating skin viscoelasticity has an impact on skin contact mechanics with a given force and that this impacts the resultant neural coding of force. Their study has been well-designed and the results support their conclusions. The importance and scope of the work is adequately outlined for readers to interpret the results and significance.

      Impact:

      This study will have important implications for future studies performing tactile stimulation and evaluating tactile feedback during motor control tasks. In detailed studies of tactile function, it illustrates the necessity to measure skin contact dynamics to properly understand the effects of a force stimulus on the skin and mechanoreceptors.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (Very) minor comments

      - The authors say at the beginning of the Results that, "The fourth type of tactile neurons in the human glabrous skin, fast adapting type II neurons...". Although generally written that there are four types of afferent in the glabrous skin, it would be better to state that these are low-threshold A-beta myelinated mechanoreceptive afferents, at least one time, as there are other types of afferent in the glabrous skin that respond to mechanical stimulation (e.g. low and high threshold C-fibers).

      This is now clarified at the start of the Results section:

      “We recorded action potentials in the median nerve of individual low-threshold A-beta myelinated first-order human tactile neurons innervating the glabrous skin of the fingertip…”

      - Fig. 3: Could you add '(N)' as the measurement of force for Fig. 3A for Fz, Fy, and Fz? Also, please change 'Data was recorded' to 'Data were recorded' in the legend.

      Fixed.

      - At the beginning of the Methods, you say that your study conforms to the Declaration of Helsinki, which actually requires pre-registration in a database. If you did not pre-register your study, please can you add '... in accordance with the Declaration of Helsinki, apart from pre-registration in a database'.

      Thanks for making us aware of this. We have added the suggested qualifier to the ethics statement.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The neural representation/encoding of the actual displacement vectors would be a useful addition to the analyses. These vectors have been demonstrated to systematically change with the condition in the irregular series (Figure 2E) and will thus significantly act on the dynamics of induced mechanical changes in the skin with a given interaction force. Thus, it could be examined how the neurons code the magnitude of displacements as well as their direction. An evaluation of the extent to which the imposed displacement magnitudes are encoded in the neural responses would be a useful addition in explaining the signalling of the force events and how the central nervous system decodes these. Evaluating an alternative displacement encoding for comparison to pure force encoding may reveal more about how contact events are represented in the tactile system, which must decode these variable afferent signals to reconstruct a percept of the interaction. It could then be explored how the central nervous system may then scale the dynamic afferent responses based on the background viscoelastic state likely to be present in the SA-II afferent signals (Figure 7) for a context in which to evaluate the dynamic contact forces. This may of course be a complex relationship for the type-I afferents, where the underlying mechanical events evoking the firing (microslips not represented in global forces) have not been measured here. Such a model could be more widely applicable, as the skin viscoelasticity and displacement magnitudes are a straightforward measurement metric and could perhaps be used as a better proxy for neural signalling. This would allow the investigation of a wider variety of forces, and the study of the timing of the viscoelastic effect, both of which have been fixed here. This would give the work a broader impact, rather than just highlighting that this effect produces variability, it could reveal if this mechanical feature is structured in the neural representation. The categorical encoding/decoding tested here is specific to the stimuli used (magnitudes, intervals), but there is the possibility that this may be more generally applicable (within the bounds of forces/speeds) if the underlying basis of the variability in the signalling produced by the viscoelasticity is identified. Since the time course of the viscoelasticity has not been measured here (fixed forces and intervals), further study is required to fully understand the implications this has for a wider variety of situations.

      We agree that a better understanding of how the mechanical deformations are reflected in the resulting spike trains would be valuable. While ultimately a full understanding will need precise measurements of skin deformation across the whole fingertip to account for mechanical propagation to mechanoreceptor locations, relating the deformations at the contact location with neural firing patterns directly can provide useful hints into which aspects of deformation are encoded and how. To this end, we ran a new analysis that aimed to predict the time-varying neural responses directly from the recorded mechanical movements of the contactor.

      Below we have reproduced the new results and methods text along with the additional figures for this analysis. Note that we have also added text in the Discussion to interpret these findings in the context of our other results.

      New section in Results titled Predicting neural responses from contactor movements: “The similarity in the history-dependent variation in neural firing and fingertip deformation at a given force stimulus suggests that neuronal firing is determined by how the fingertip deforms rather than the applied force itself. However, this similarity does not clarify the relationship between fingertip deformation dynamics and neural signaling. To investigate further, we fit cross-validated multiple linear regression models to evaluate how well distinct aspects of contactor movement could predict the time-varying firing rates of individual neurons during the protraction phases of the irregular sequence. The models used predictors based on (1) the three-dimensional position of the contactor, (2) its three-dimensional velocity, (3) a combination of position and velocity signals, and, finally, (4) position and velocity signals along with all possible two-way interactions between them, capturing potentially complex relationship between fingertip deformations and neural signaling.

      Comparing the variance explained (R<sup>2</sup>) by each regression model for each neuron type revealed clear differences between the models (Figure 5A). A two-way mixed design ANOVA, with regression model as within-group effects and neuron type as a between-group effect revealed a main effect of model on variance explained (F(3,462) = 815.5, p < 0.001, η<sub>p</sub><sup>2</sup> = 0.84). Model prediction accuracy overall increased with the number of predictors, with the two-way interaction model outperforming all others (p < 0.001 for all comparisons, Tukey’s HSD). Additionally, a significant main effect of neuron type (F(2,154) = 29.8, p < 0.001, η<sub>p</sub><sup>2</sup> = 0.28) and a significant interaction between regression model and neuron type were observed (F(6,462) = 50.8, p < 0.001, η<sub>p</sub><sup>2</sup> = 0.40).

      For neuron type, model predictions were most accurate for SA-2 neurons, followed by SA-1 neurons, with FA-1 neurons showing the lowest accuracy (p < 0.003 for all comparisons, Tukey’s HSD). The interaction between model and neuron type revealed distinct patterns. For SA-1 and SA-2 neurons, position-only and velocity-only models had similar prediction accuracy (p ≥ 0.996, Tukey’s HSD) with no significant differences between these neuron types (p ≥ 0.552, Tukey’s HSD). FA-1 neurons performed poorly with the position-only model but showed higher accuracy with the velocity-only model (p < 0.001, Tukey’s HSD) and better than SA-1 neurons (p = 0.006, Tukey’s HSD). Models combining position and velocity predictors (without interactions) surpassed both position-only and velocity-only models for SA-1 and SA-2 neurons (p < 0.001, Tukey’s HSD). Overall, the differences between neuron types broadly match their tuning to static and dynamic stimulus properties.

      The two-way interaction model, accounting for most variance in neural responses, produced mean R<sup>2</sup> values of 0.75 for FA-1, 0.88 for SA-1, and 0.91 for SA-2 neurons (Figure 5A). To evaluate the contribution of the different predictors, we ranked them using the permutation feature importance method, focusing on the six most important ones. Regression analyses using only these variables explained almost all of the variance explained by the full model, with a median R<sup>2</sup> reduction of just 0.055 across all neurons. Across all neuron types, at least half included all three velocity components (dPx, dPy, dPz) among the top six, with FA-1 neurons showing the highest prevalence (Figure 5B). Interactions between normal position (Pz) and each velocity component were also frequently observed, while interactions involving tangential position and velocity components were less common. Interactions among velocity components were relatively well represented, followed by interactions limited to position components. Position signals were generally less represented, except for normal position (Pz) in slowly adapting neurons, where it appeared in 50% of SA-1 and 68% of SA-2 neurons. Despite these broad trends, important predictors varied widely across ranks even within a given neuron class (see Figure 5-figure supplement 1), and even the most frequent variables appeared in only a subset of cases, suggesting broad variability in sensitivity across neurons.”

      New methods paragraph titled Predicting time-varying firing rates from skin deformations:

      “This analysis was conducted in Python (v3.13) with pandas for data handling, numpy for numerical operations, and scikit-learn for model fitting and evaluation.

      To assess how well individual neurons' time-varying firing rates could be predicted from simultaneous contactor movements, we fitted multiple linear regression models (see Khamis et al., 2015, for a similar approach}. This analysis focused on the force protraction phase of the irregular sequence, where neurons were most responsive and sensitive to stimulation history. Data from 100 ms before to 100 ms after the protraction phase (between -0.100 s and 0.225 s relative to protraction onset) were included for each trial. Neurons were included if they fired at least two action potentials during the force protraction phase and the following 100 ms in at least five of the 25 trials. This ensured sufficient variability in firing rates for meaningful regression analysis, resulting in 68 SA-1, 38 SA-2, and 51 FA-1 neurons being included.

      Contractor position signals digitized at 400 Hz were linearly interpolated to 1000 Hz. Instantaneous firing rates, derived from action potentials sampled at 12.8 kHz, were resampled at 1000 Hz to align with position signals. A Gaussian filter (σ = 10 ms, cutoff ~16 Hz) was applied to the firing rate as well as to the position signals before differentiation. To account for axonal conduction (8–15 ms) and sensory transduction delays (1–5 ms), firing rates were advanced by 15 ms to align approximately with independent variables.

      Regressions were performed using scikit-learn's Ridge and RidgeCV regressors, which apply L2 regularization to mitigate overfitting. Hyperparameter tuning for the regularization parameter (alpha) was performed using GridSearchCV with a predefined range (0.001–1000.0), incorporating five-fold cross-validation to select the best value. To minimize overfitting risks, model performance was further validated with independent five-fold cross-validation (KFold), and R<sup>2</sup> scores were computed using cross_val_score.

      We constructed four linear regression models with increasing complexity: (1) Position-only, using three-dimensional contactor positions (Px, Py, Pz); (2) Velocity-only, using three-dimensional velocities (dPx, dPy, dPz); (3) Combined, including all position and velocity signals (6 predictors); and (4) Interaction, including all signals and their two-way interactions (21 predictors). All features were standardized using StandardScaler to improve regularization and model convergence. PolynomialFeatures generated second-order interaction terms for the interaction model. Feature importance was evaluated with permutation_importance, and simpler models were built using the most important features. These models were validated through cross-validation to assess retained explanatory power.”

      Minor:

      - It would be useful to add a brief description of the material aspects of the contactor tip to the methods (as per Birznieks 2001).

      We have added the following statement:

      “To ensure that friction between the contactor and the skin was sufficiently high to prevent slips, the surface was coated with silicon carbide grains (50–100 μm), approximating the finish of smooth sandpaper.”

      - The axes labelling on Figure 3A and legend description is ambiguous, probably placing the Px, Py, and Pz labels on the far left axes and the Fx, Fy, and Fz on the right side of the far right axes would make this clearer.

      Label placement has been improved along with some other minor fixes.

      - For the quasi-static phase analysis, the phrase "absence of loading" used in reference to the interstimulus period and SA-II afferents does not seem to be a correct description. The finger is still loaded (at least in the normal direction), with a magnitude of imposed displacement that counteracts the viscoelastic force exerted by the skin mechanics of the fingertip. Although there is a zero net-force load, a mechanical stimulus is still being actively applied to the skin.

      We have changed the wording throughout the text and now consistently refer either to the “interstimulus period” directly or to an “absence of externally applied stimulation” to avoid confusion.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The revised paper by Kim et al. reports two disease mutations in proBMP4, S91C and E93G, disrupt the FAM20C phosphorylation site at Ser91, blocking the activation of proBMP4 homodimers, while still allowing BMP4/7 heterodimers to function. Analysis of DMZ explants from Xenopus embryos expressing the proBMP4 S91C or E93G mutants showed reduced expression of pSmad1 and tbxt1. The expert amphibian tissue transplant studies were expanded to in vivo studies in Bmp4S91C/+ and Bmp4E93G/+ mice, highlighting the impact of these mutations on embryonic development, particularly in female mice, consistent with patient studies. Additionally, studies in mouse embryonic fibroblasts (MEFs) demonstrated that the mutations did not affect proBMP4 glycosylation or ER-to-Golgi transport but appeared to inhibit the furin-dependent cleavage of proBMP4 to BMP4. Based on these findings and AI modeling using AlphaFold of proBMP4, the authors speculate that pSer91 influences access of furin to its cleavage site at Arg289AlaLysArg292 in a new "Ideas and Speculation" section. Overall, the authors addressed the reviewers' comments, improving the presentation.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of this work continue to lie in the elegant Xenopus and mouse studies that elucidate the impact of the S91C and E93G disease mutations on BMP signaling and embryonic development. Including an "Ideas and Speculation" subsection for mechanistic ideas reduces some shortcomings regarding the analysis of the underlying mechanisms.

      Weaknesses:

      (1)  (Minor) In Figure S1 and lines 165-174 and 179-180, the authors should consider that, unlike the wild-type protein (Ser), which can be reversibly phosphorylated or dephosphorylated, phosphomimic mutations are locked into mimicking either the phosphorylated state (Asp) or the non-phosphorylated state (Ala). Consequently, if the S91D mutant exhibits lower activity than WT, it could imply that S91D interferes with other regulatory constraints, as the authors suggest. However, it may also be inhibiting activation. Therefore, caution is warranted when comparing S91D with S91C to conclude that Ser91 phosphorylation increases BMP4 activity. While additional experiments are not necessary, further consideration is essential.

      (Minor) In lines 394-399, the authors cleverly speculate that pS91 interacts with Arg289-the essential P4 arginine for furin processing. If so, this interaction could hinder the cleavage of proBMP4, as indicated by the results in Figure S1. The discussion would benefit from considering that, contrary to their favored model, dephosphorylation at Ser91 might actually facilitate cleavage.

      We have added a paragraph raising this possibility but explaining why it is unlikely and inconsistent with our in vivo data. The S91D construct was a simple control that was tested in ectopic expression assays and not in vivo.  We can make no conclusions about whether this construct resembles the phosphorylated state or whether it hinders or facilitates cleavage in vivo. The conclusion that dephosphorylation promotes BMP4 cleavage or activity is not compatible with the finding that two mutations associated with birth defects in humans (p.S91C or p.E93G) that are predicted to prevent FAM20C-mediated phosphorylation of the BMP4 prodomain lead to impaired proteolytic maturation of endogenous BMP4 and reduced BMP activity in vivo. 

      (2)  In Figure 4, panels A, E, and I, the proBMP bands in the mouse embryonic lysates and MEFs expressing the mutations show a clear size shift. Are these shifts a cause or a consequence of the lack of cleavage? Regardless, the size shifts should be explicitly noted.

      These intriguing shifts were observed in some but not all biological replicates.  When present, the shifts were not reversed by treatment with phosphatases or deglycosylases, and the shifts were never observed in epitope tagged wild type controls.  We have added a paragraph noting the shifts and our tests of whether they might be due to glycosylation, phosphorylation or epitope tags. 

      (3)  (Minor) In line 314, the authors should consider modifying the wording to: "is required for modulating proprotein convertase..."

      The original wording (“Collectively, our findings are consistent with a model in which FAM20C-mediated phosphorylation of the BMP4 prodomain is not required for folding or exit of the precursor protein from the ER, but is required for proprotein convertase recognition and/or for trafficking to post-TGN compartment(s) where BMP4 is cleaved”) more accurately reflects the model that is supported by our findings. Stating that “phosphorylation ……is required to modulate proprotein convertase recognition and/or trafficking” is vague and leaves open the possibility that it modulates in either direction, which our data do not support as described in point 1 above.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      This study investigates the role of microtubules in regulating insulin secretion from pancreatic islet beta cells. This is of great importance considering that controlled secretion of insulin is essential to prevent diabetes. Previously, it has been shown that KIF5B plays an essential role in insulin secretion by transporting insulin granules to the plasma membrane. High glucose activates KIF5B to increase insulin secretion resulting in the cellular uptake of glucose. In order to prevent hypoglycemia, insulin secretion needs to be tightly controlled. Notably, it is known that KIF5B plays a role in microtubule sliding. This is important, as the authors described previously that beta cells establish a peripheral sub-membrane microtubule array, which is critical for the withdrawal of excessive insulin granules from the secretion sites. At high glucose, the sub-membrane microtubule array is destabilized to allow for robust insulin secretion. Here the authors aim to answer the question of how the peripheral array is formed. Based on the previously published data the authors hypothesize that KIF5B organizes the sub-membrane microtubule array via microtubule sliding. 

      General comment: 

      This manuscript provides data that indicate that KIF5B, like in many other cells, mediates microtubule sliding in beta cells. This study is limited to in vitro assays and one cell line. Furthermore, the authors provide no link to insulin secretion and glucose uptake and the overall effects described are moderate. Finally, the overall effect of microtubule sliding upon glucose stimulation is surprisingly low considering the tight regulation of insulin secretion. Moreover, the authors state "the amount of MT polymer on every glucose stimulation changes only slightly, often undetectable…. In fact, we observe a prominent effect of peripheral MT loss only after a long-term kinesin depletion (three-four days)". This challenges the view that a KIF5Bdependent mechanism regulating microtubule sliding plays a major role in controlling insulin secretion. 

      (1) Our initial study was indeed done in a cell line, which is a normal approach to addressing molecular mechanisms of a phenomenon in a challenging cell model: primary pancreatic beta cells are prone to rapidly dedifferentiate outside of the organism and are hard to genetically modify. To address this reviewer’s comment, in the revised manuscript we now confirm the phenotype in beta cells within intact pancreatic islets from a KIF5B KO mouse model (New Figure 2 – Supplemental Figure 1).

      (2) We agree that testing the effect of microtubule sliding on insulin secretion is an important question. Unfortunately, the experimental design needed to accomplish this task is not straighDorward. Importantly, besides microtubule sliding, KIF5B is heavily engaged in insulin granule transport, and GSIS deficiency upon KIF5B inactivation is well documented (e.g. Varadi et al 2002). In this study, we choose not to repeat this GSIS assay because of ample existing data. However, this reported GSIS deficiency could result from a combination of lack of insulin granule delivery to the periphery (previous data) and from the depletion of insulin granules from the periphery due to the loss of the submembrane MT bundle (this study and Bracey et al 2020).  In order to exclusively test the role of MT sliding in secretion, a significant investment in mutant tool development would be needed. Ideally, a new mutant mouse model where insulin granule transport is allowed by MT sliding in blocked must be developed to specifically address this question. To conclude, answering this question will be the subject for another, follow-up study. 

      (3) We respecDully disagree with the reviewer’s opinion that the effect of MT sliding in beta cells is moderate. As MT networks go, even a slight change in MT configuration often has dramatic consequences. For example, in mitotic spindles, a tiny overgrowth of microtubule ends during metaphase, which causes them to attach to both kinetochores rather than just one, is very significant for the efficiency of chromosome segregation, causing aneuploidy and cancer. The changes in beta-cell MT networks that we are reporting are much stronger: the effect on the peripheral MT network accumulated over three days of KIF5B depletion is dramatic (Fig 2 B, C). Short-term gross MT network configurations after a single glucose stimulation are harder to detect, but MTs at the cell periphery are, in fact, destabilized and fragmented, as we and others have previously reported (Ho et al 2020, Mueller et al 2021). Preventing this MT rearrangement completely blocks GSIS (Zhu et al 2015, Ho et al 2020). 

      One of the most fascinating features of insulin secretion regulation is that the amount of generated insulin granules significantly exceeds the normal physiological needs for insulin secretion (~100 times more than needed). At the same time, even slightly facilitated glucose depletion can be devastating. Accordingly, the excessive insulin content of a beta cell resulted in the development of multiple levels of control, preventing excessive secretion. Our previous data suggest that the peripheral MT array provides one of those mechanisms. This study indicates that microtubule sliding is necessary to form the proper peripheral network in the long term. Short-term glucose-induced changes in the peripheral MT array likely need to be subtle to prevent over-secretion. Thus, we are not surprised that a dramatic effect of sliding inhibition is only detectable by our approaches after the changes in the MT network accumulate over time. In the revised paper, we now discuss the potential impact of peripheral MT sliding on positive and negative regulation of secretion and add a schematic model illustrating these processes.

      Specific comments: 

      (1) Notably, the authors have previously reported that high glucose-induced remodeling of microtubule networks facilitates robust glucose-stimulated insulin secretion. This remodeling involves the disassembly of old microtubules and the nucleation of new microtubules. Using real-time imaging of photoconverted microtubules, they report that high levels of glucose induce rapid microtubule disassembly preferentially in the periphery of individual β-cells, and this process is mediated by the phosphorylation of microtubule-associated protein tau. Here, they state that the sub-membrane microtubule array is destabilized via microtubule sliding. What is the relevance of the different processes? 

      In this comment, the summary of our previous conclusions is correct, but the conclusion of this current study is re-stated incorrectly. Indeed, we have previously shown that in high glucose, MTs are destabilized at the cell periphery and nucleated in the cell interior. However, this current paper does not state that “the sub-membrane microtubule array is destabilized via microtubule sliding”. To answer this reviewer’s question, our data support a model where, during glucose stimulation, MT sliding within the peripheral bundle might move fragments of MTs severed by other mechanisms. Importantly, we propose that MT sliding restores the partially destabilized peripheral bundle by delivery of MTs that are nucleated at the cell interior and incorporating them into that bundle. In our overall model, three processes (destabilization, nucleation, and sliding to restore the bundle) are coordinated to maintain beta cell fitness on each GSIS cycle.

      (2) On one hand the authors describe how KIF5B depletion prevents sliding and the transport of microtubules to the plasma membrane to form the sub-membrane microtubule array. This indicates KIF5B is required to form this structure. On the other hand, they describe that at high glucose concentration, KIF5B promotes microtubule sliding to destabilize the sub-membrane microtubule array to allow robust insulin secretion. This appears contradictory. 

      We never intended to make an impression that MT sliding destabilized the sub-membrane bundle. Apologies if there was a reason in our wording that caused this misunderstanding of our model. We propose that while the bundle is destabilized downstream of glucose signaling (e.g. due to tau phosphorylation, please see Ho et al Diabetes 2020), MT sliding remodels the bundle and thereafter rebuilds it to prevent over-secretion. In the revised manuscript, we have doublechecked the whole text to make sure that such misunderstanding is avoided. 

      (3) Previously, it has been shown that KIF5B induces tubulin incorporation along the microtubule shaft in a concentration-dependent manner. Moreover, running KIF5B increases microtubule rescue frequency and unlimited growth of microtubules. Notably, KIF5B regulates microtubule network mass and organization in cells (PMID: 34883065). Consequently, it appears possible that the here observed phenomena of changes in the microtubule network might be due to alterations in these processes. 

      We thank the reviewer for proposing this alternative explanation to the observed change in microtubule networks after KIF5B depletion. We have now directly tested this possibility. Namely, we have re-expressed the kinesin-1 motor domain in MIN6 cells depleted of KIF5B. This motor domain construct by itself is not capable of driving microtubule sliding because it lacks the tail domain. At the same time, it is known to move very efficiently at microtubules and should provide the effects as reported in the article cited by the reviewer. We found that the reexpression of the kinesin motor domain does not rescue microtubule network defects in beta cells (see new Figure 2 – Supplemental Figure 2). Thus, we conclude that the effects of kinesin depletion on the microtubule network in beta cells are due to the lack of microtubule sliding, as reported here.

      (4) The authors provide data that indicate that microtubule sliding is enhanced upon glucose stimulation. They conclude that these data indicate that microtubule sliding is an integral part of glucose-triggered microtubule remodeling. Yet, the authors fail to provide any evidence that this process plays a role in insulin secretion or glucose uptake. 

      We would like to point out that we do not “fail” but rather choose not to overload our study by repeating insulin secretion assays in KIF5B-inactivated cells because this would not have been very informative. It has been found previously that kinesin-1 inactivation or knockout significantly attenuates insulin secretion because kinesin-1 is actively transporting insulin granules and kinesin-1 activity is enhanced under high glucose conditions (e.g. Varadi et al 2002, Cui et al., 2011, Donelan et al, 2002). That said, our current finding is very much in line with these previous data. When kinesin is depleted, two things would be happening at the same time: in the absence of sub-membrane microtubule bundle pre-existing insulin granules would be over-secreted, and new insulin would not be delivered to the periphery, both decreasing GSIS. Unfortunately, we do not have tools yet that would allow us to dissect which part of the insulin secretion defect is due to prior over-secretion (the consequence of deficient MT sliding) and which part is due to the lack of new granule delivery. We plan to develop such tools in the future and elaborate on them in a follow-up study. Here, our goal is to understand microtubule organization principles in beta cells, and we choose not to extend the scope of the current study to metabolic assays.  

      (5) The authors speculate that the sub-membrane microtubule array prevents the over-secretion of insulin. Would one not expect in this case a change in the distribution of insulin granules at the plasma membrane when this array is affected? Or after glucose stimulation? Notably, it has been reported that "the defects of β-cell function in KIF5B mutant mice were not coupled with observable changes in islet morphology, islet cell composition, or β-cell size" and "the subcellular localization of insulin vesicles was found to not be affected significantly by the decreased Kif5b level. The cytoplasm of both wild-type and mutant β-cells was filled with insulin vesicles. Insulin vesicle numbers per square μm were determined by counting all insulin vesicles in randomly photographed β-cells. More insulin granules were found in Kif5b knockout β-cells compared with control cells. This phenomenon is consistent with the observation that insulin secretion by β-cells is affected" whereby "Insulin vesicles (arrowheads) were distributed evenly in both mutant and control cells" (PMID: 20870970).  

      Quantitative analyses in the study cited by the reviewer do not include assays that would be relevant to our study. Particularly, in that study neither the amount of insulin granules at the cell periphery nor the ratio between the number of granules at the periphery and the beta cell interior has been analyzed. In addition, in our preliminary observations not shown here, insulin content in beta cells in KIF5B KO mice is highly heterogeneous, with a subpopulation of cells severely depleted of insulin. This opens a new avenue of investigation into beta cell heterogeneity, which is out of the scope of this current study. Thus, we chose to restrict this current study to microtubule organization data.   

      (6) Does the sub-membrane microtubule array exist in primary beta cells (in vitro and/or in vivo) and how it is affected in KIF5B knockout mice?  

      Yes, it does exist. In fact, we have first reported it in mouse islets (Bracey et al 2020, Ho et al 2020). Now, we report that the sub-membrane bundle is defective, and microtubules are misaligned in KIF5B KO mice (new Figure 2 – Supplemental Figure 1).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      In this article, Bracey et al. provide insights into the factors contributing to the distinct arrangement observed in sub-membrane microtubules (MTs) within mouse β-cells of the pancreas. Specifically, they propose that in clonal mouse pancreatic β-cells (MIN6), the motor protein KIF5B plays a role in sliding existing MTs towards the cell periphery and aligning them with each other along the plasma membrane. Furthermore, similar to other physiological features of β-cells, this process of MTs sliding is enhanced by a high glucose stimulus. Because a precise alignment of MTs beneath the cell membrane in β-cells is crucial for the regulated secretion of pancreatic enzymes and hormones, KIF5B assumes a significant role in pancreatic activity, both in healthy conditions and during diseases. 

      The authors provide evidence in support of their model by demonstrating that the levels of KIF5B mRNA in MIN6 cells are higher compared to other known KIFs. They further show that when KIF5B is genetically silenced using two different shRNAs, the MT sliding becomes less efficient. Additionally, silencing of KIF5A in the same cells leads to a general reorganization of MTs throughout the cell. Specifically, while control cells exhibit a convoluted and non-radial arrangement of MTs near the cell membrane, KIF5B-depleted cells display a sparse and less dense sub-membrane array of MTs. Based on these findings, the Authors conclude that the loss of KIF5B strongly affects the localization of MTs to the periphery of the cell. Using a dominant-negative approach, the authors also demonstrate that KIF5B facilitates the sliding of MTs by binding to cargo MTs through the kinesin-1 tail binding domain. Additionally, they present evidence suggesting that KIF5B-mediated MT sliding is dependent on glucose, similar to the activity levels of kinesin-1, which increase in the presence of glucose. Notably, when the glucose concentrations in the culturing media of MIN6 cells are reduced from 20 mM to 5 mM, a significant decrease in MT sliding is observed. 

      Strengths:

      This study unveils a previously unexplained mechanism that regulates the specific rearrangement of MTs beneath the cell membrane in pancreatic β-cells. The findings of this research have implications and are of significant interest because the precise regulation of the MT array at the secretion zone plays a critical role in controlling pancreatic function in both healthy and diseased states. In general, the author's conclusions are substantiated by the provided data, and the study demonstrates the utilization of state-of-the-art methodologies including quantification techniques, and elegant dominant-negative experiments. 

      Weaknesses:

      A few relatively minor issues are present and related to data interpretation and the conclusions drawn in the study. Namely, some inconsistencies between what appears to be the overall and sub-membrane MT array in scramble vs. KIF5B-depleted cells, the lack of details about the sub-cellular localization of KIF5B in these cells and the physiological significance of the effect of glucose levels in beta-cells of the pancreas. 

      We thank the reviewer for this insighDul review. In the revised version, we provided re-worded and extended interpretations and conclusions to prevent any issues or misunderstandings.  We trust that while some noted apparent inconsistencies may reflect the intrinsic heterogeneity of the beta cell population, all data presented here indicate the same trend in phenotypes.  In the revised version, we have provided additional cell views and, in places, alternative representative images and videos, to clear out any apparent inconsistencies. We also would like to point out that we in fact reported KIF5B localization: not surprisingly, KIF5B predominantly localized to insulin granules and the punctate staining fills the whole cytoplasm (Figure 2A, bottom panel). However, as pointed out in detail in our response to reviewer 1, we choose to leave out an extensive study of the physiological and metabolic consequences of the reported microtubule network dynamics to a follow-up study. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Prior work from the Kaverina lab and others had determined that beta-cells build a microtubule network that differs from the canonical radial organization typical in most mammalian cell types and that this organization facilitates the regulated secretion of insulin-containing secretory granules (IGs). In this manuscript, the authors tested the hypothesis that kinesin-driven microtubule sliding is an underlying mechanism that establishes a sub-membranous microtubule array that regulates IG secretion. They employed knock-down and dominant-negative strategies to convincingly show microtubule sliding does, in fact, drive the assembly of the sub-membranous microtubule band. They also used live cell imaging assays to demonstrate that kinesin-mediated microtubule sliding in beta-cells is triggered by extracellular high glucose. Overall, this is an interesting and important study that relates microtubule dynamics to an important physiological process. The experiments were rigorous and well-controlled. 

      We truly appreciate this reviewer’ opinion. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Figures: 

      (1) Figure 1: 

      a) Why can one not see here, and in most following images, the peripheral sub-membrane microtubule array? One can also not see an accumulation of microtubules in the cell interior. 

      Microtubule pattern in beta cells is variable, and the sub-membrane array is seen in the whole population to a variable extent (see directionality histogram in Figure 2E for statistics). In fact, an array of peripheral MTs parallel to the cell border is present in the example shown in Figure 1 and in all following control images. To make it clearer, we now show the pre-bleach images in Figure 1 D-F at a lower magnification, so that the differences in MT density at the cell periphery and cell center are more clearly seen: MTs lack at the periphery in KF5B-depleted but not the control cells.  

      b) 5 min appears to be a long time and enough time to polymerize a significant number of new microtubules. 

      We interpret this comment as the reviewer’s concern that in FRAP assays, fluorescently-labeled MTs moving into the bleached area might be newly polymerizing MTs rather than preexisting MT relocated into that area. However, this is not the case because newly polymerized MTs contain predominantly quenched “dark” tubulin molecules and only a small percent of fluorescent tubulin. These dim MTs are not included in MT sliding assay analysis, where a threshold for bright MTs is introduced. Now, we added more details for the quantification of these data to Materials and Methods section.

      c) The overall effects appear minor. It is unclear how Fig. 1-Suppl-Fig.1, where no significant difference is shown, is translated into Figure 1 J and K showing a significant difference. 

      With all due respect, we do not agree that the effect is minor. Please see our response to the Public Review where we discuss the major consequences of MT defects in detail. 

      To answer this specific comment, we show that there are significant differences in the number of rapidly moving MTs (5-sec displacement over 0.3 µm) and in the amount of stationary MTs (5sec displacement is below 0.15 µm). There is no significant difference in the amount of slightly displaced MTs (displacements between 0.15 and 0.3 µm; the central part of the histogram). This might indicate that these slight displacements do not depend on kinesin-1 motor but rather are caused by experimental noise, pushing by moving organelles, and/or myosin-dependent forces in the cell. In the revised manuscript, we have this quantification more clearly detailed in Methods and included in Figure legends.

      d) The authors utilize single molecule tracking to further strengthen their conclusion that KIF5B promotes microtubule sliding. The observed effects are weaker than the data obtained from photobleaching experiments. The videos clearly show that there is still significant movement also in KIF5B-depleted cells. If K560RigorE236A binds irreversibly to a microtubule and this microtubule is growing (not only by the addition of tubulin dimers to the plus end; see PMID: 34883065) wouldn't that also result in movement of the tagged K560RigorE236A? As KIF5B is also required in the transport of insulin granules, it should also label "interior microtubules". And in Video 2 it appears that pretty much all "labeled" microtubules are moving. 

      K560RigorE236A forms fiducial marks along the whole MTs lattice, as previously shown in (Tanenbaum et al., 2014). When it is bound to MT lattice, K560RigorE236A moves with the whole MT if it is being relocated. The mechanism described in (PMID: 34883065) appears to be absent or minor in beta cells (see Figure 2- Supplemental Figure 2), thus, even if this mechanism would displace already polymerized MTs, this is not happening in this cell type.

      The reviewer is correct, K560RigorE236A does mark all MTs throughout a beta cell. All MTs are moving slightly in a living cell because they are pushed around by moving organelles, actin contractility, etc. MTs may also be slid by other MT-dependent motors (dynein against the membrane and such). So, it is not surprising that the MT network is “breezing,” and kinesindependent sliding is only a part of MT movement. What we show here is that the KIF5Bdependent MT sliding is responsible for a relatively “long-distance” relocation of MTs manifested in long, directional displacement of fiducial marks.  This does not exclude other movements. This makes extraction of kinesin-dependent MT movements somewhat challenging, of course, that is why we needed to do those extensive analyses. 

      e) Figure 1 G to K is misleading, at least in the context of the provided videos. There are several microtubules that move extensively in shRNA#2-treated cells and overall there appears more movement in this cell as in the control cell. Figure 1I is clearly not representative of the movement shown in Video 2. 

      We apologize if our selection of representative movies/figures for this experiment was imperfect. Indeed, in all depleted cells, SunTag puncta still move to a certain extent, either due to incomplete depletion or to alternative intracellular forces dislocating microtubules. However, there is a clear difference in the fraction of persistently moving puncta (please see Figure 1K and  histogram in Figure 1 - Supplemental Figure 1B). Unfortunately, when the number of SunTag puncta per a cell is variable, it sometimes prevents a good visual perception of the actual distribution of moving versus stationary microtubules. We now show an alternative representative movie for the Figure 1I and the corresponding Video 2, with a goal to compare cells with more consistent numbers of Sun-Tag puncta.

      (2) Figure 2A. 

      a) This is the only image that clearly shows the existence of a sub-membrane microtubule array and the concentration of microtubules in the cell interior. The differences are unclear between the experimental setups including the length of cultivation and knockdown of KIF5B or expression of mutants. 

      We now provide a more detailed description of each image acquisition and processing in Materials and Methods. In brief, while the morphology of MT patterns is intrinsically variable in beta cells, all control cells have populated peripheral MTs that exhibit a more parallel configuration as compared to depletions and mutants.

      b) The authors state "While control cells had convoluted non-radial MTs with a prominent sub-membrane array, typical for beta cells (Fig. 2A), KIF5B-depleted cells featured extra-dense MTs in the cell center and sparse reseeding MTs at the periphery (Fig. 2B, C)". Could that not be explained with the observation that "Kinesin-1 controls microtubule length" (PMID: 34883065)? 

      Thank you for this interesting alternative idea. It does not appear to be the case for beta cells.

      Please see Figure 2-Supplemental Figure 2  and our response to Public Review Comment #3.

      Also, our apologies for the typo in the original manuscript: this is “receding” nor “reseeding”.

      (3) Figure 3: 

      a) This is an elegant way to determine whether KIF5B is involved in microtubule sliding independent of the fact that the effect appears very small. 

      Thank you!            

      b) The assay depends on ectopic expression of a dominant negative mutant. It appears important to show that KIFDNwt is high enough expressed to indeed block the binding of endogenous KIF5B. The authors need to provide a control for this. Furthermore, authors need to provide evidence that other functions of KIF5B are not impaired such as transport of insulin granules and tubulin incorporation or microtubule stability and length.

      Expression of cargo-binding motor domains routinely causes a dominant-negative effect of their cargo transport. This exact construct has been used for the purpose of dominant-negative action previously (Ravindran et al., 2017). It does prevent the membrane cargo binding of KIF5B (Ravindran et al., 2017), thus the transport of insulin granules is also impaired in overexpression cells. Confirming this fact would not influence our study conclusions, so we chose not to repeat these assays for the sake of time.

      c) N-numbers should be similar. The data for KIFDNmut are difficult to interpret with possibly 2 experiments showing little to no displacement and 3 showing displacement. 

      In the revised manuscript, additional data have been added to increase N-numbers.

      (4) Figure 4 and supplements: The morphology of the KIFDNwt cells is greatly affected and this makes it difficult to say whether the effect on microtubules at the cell periphery is a direct or indirect effect. 

      Yes, these cells often have less spread appearance, obscuring visual perception of MT distribution. We have now replaced the image of KIFDNwt cell (Figure 4, Supplemental Figure 1 A) to a more visually representative example.

      Things to do: 

      (1) Notably, the authors have previously reported that high glucose-induced remodeling of microtubule networks facilitates robust glucose-stimulated insulin secretion. This remodeling involves the disassembly of old microtubules and the nucleation of new microtubules. Here, they state that the sub-membrane microtubule array is destabilized via microtubule sliding. What is the relevance of the different processes? Please discuss these in the manuscript. 

      Thank you, we have now extended our discussion of these points and our prior findings. We have also added a schematic model figure for clarity (Figure 7).  

      (2) 5 min appears to be a long time and enough time to polymerize a significant number of new microtubules. Do the authors have any information about the speed of MT formation in MIN6 cells? Can the authors repeat this experiment by preventing MT polymerization? Or repeat the experiment with EB1/EB3 reporter to visualize microtubule growth in the same experimental setting? 

      While some MT polymerization will happen in this timeframe, newly polymerized MTs contain predominantly quenched “dark” tubulin molecules and only a small percent of fluorescent tubulin. These dim MTs are not included in MT sliding assay analysis, where a threshold for bright MTs is introduced. We apologize for initially omitting certain details from the FRAP assay analysis. Now these details have been added.   

      Are the microtubules shown on the cell surface (TIRF microscopy) or do we see here all microtubules? 

      Please see Materials and Methods for microscopy methods and image processing for each figure. Specifically, FRAP assays show a maximum intensity projection of spinning disk confocal stacks over 2.4µm in height (approximately the ventral half of a cell).

      (3) Previously, it has been shown that KIF5B induces tubulin incorporation along the microtubule shaft in a concentration-dependent manner. Moreover, running KIF5B increases microtubule rescue frequency and unlimited growth of microtubules. Notably, KIF5B regulates microtubule network mass and organization in cells (PMID: 34883065). Consequently, it appears possible that the here observed phenomena of changes in the microtubule network might be due to alterations in these processes. Authors need to exclude these possibilities and discuss them. 

      Thank you for this interesting alternative idea. It does not appear to be the case for beta cells. Please see Figure 2-Supplemental Figure 2  and our response to Public Review Comment #3.

      (4) It is important that the authors describe in the text and possibly in the figure legends the differences between the experimental set-ups including the length of cultivation and knock down of KIF5B or expression of mutants. 

      Thank you, please see these details in the text (Materials and Methods section).

      (5) Figure 5: Does KIF5B depletion rescue the kinesore-induced defects 

      Thank you for suggesting this control. We have now conducted corresponding experiments. The answer is yes, it does. Kinesore does not induce detectable changes in MT patterns in KIF5Bdepleted cells (new Figure 5-Supplemental Figure 2). 

      (6) Can the authors block kinesin-1 resulting in microtubule accumulation in the cell center and then release the block, and best inhibiting microtubule formation, to see whether the microtubules accumulated in the cell center will be transported to the periphery? 

      This proposed experiment would have been a nice illustration to the study, however it has proven to be too challenging. Unfortunately we have to leave it for the future studies. However,  the experiments already included in the paper are sufficient to prove our conclusions. 

      Minor comments: 

      (1) The English needs to be improved. Oaen it is unclear what the authors try to convey. The manuscript is difficult to read and contains several overstatements. 

      The revised manuscript has been through several rounds of proof-reading for clarity.

      (2) It is important to describe in more detail in the introduction what is known about KIF5B in beta cells. Previously, it has been demonstrated that silencing, or inactivation by a dominant negative form of KIF5B, blocks the sustained phase of glucose-stimulated insulin secretion (PMID: 9112396, PMID: 12356920, PMID: 20870970). 

      Yes, this is of course very important and have been cited in the original manuscript. Now, we have expanded the discussion on the matter.

      (3) Figure 1B and Fig. 1 Suppl Fig.1: Please provide band sizes and provide information on the size of KIF5B. 

      We have replaced Fig. 1B and Suppl Fig 1A with quantitative analysis of KIF5B depletion, not found in new Fig. 1B and Suppl Fig. 1A-C. 

      (4) It is important to state the used glucose concentrations in Figure 1D (based on the methods section it is probably 25 mM glucose) and all subsequent experiments. Is this correct and comparable to Figure 6A or B? For the non-specialized reader, more information should be provided on why initial glucose starvation is performed.  

      Cell culture models of pancreatic beta cells are routinely maintained at glucose levels that at considered “high”, or stimulatory for secretion. This is needed to prevent the loss of cells’ capacity to respond to glucose stimulation over generations. In order to test GSIS, cells need to be equilibrated at low (fasting, standardly 2.8mM) glucose levels for several hours, so that they are capable of secreting insulin upon glucose addition. 25mM glucose is normally used to stimulate GSIS in cell culture models of beta cells, like MIN6. This is a higher concentration as compared to what is needed to stimulate primary beta cells in islets.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      I have the following specific questions that pertain to data interpretation and the conclusions drawn.

      (1) The morphology of the overall MT array before the bleach treatment in both control cells and KIF5B-KD cells depicted in Figure 1D-F and Figure 2A-C appears to be distinct. In Figure 1, it seems that the absence of KIF5B results in a general augmentation of MT mass, whereas the arrangement presented in Figure 2 indicates the contrary. Even in the sub-membrane areas, this phenomenon appears to hold true. However, the images used in this study, which depict entire cells or a significant portion of cells, may not be ideal for visualizing the sub-membrane regions.

      It would be beneficial if the author could offer some explanations for this apparent inconsistency. 

      While beta cell population is intrinsically heterogeneous, all data presented here indicate the same trend in phenotypes. Possibly, some apparent inconsistency between figure 1 and 2 appeared because in the original manuscript we did not show the pre-bleach whole-cell overview in Figure 1. In the revised version, we now show the whole cells for pre-bleach so that MT organization at the cell periphery can be assessed. Please note that in the control cell, MTs are more or less equally distributed over the cell, while in KIF5B depletions the cell periphery is significantly less populated than the cell center. Furthermore, we did not detect MT mass augmentation or increase in KIF5B depletions. One possible explanation for such reviewer’s impression from Figure 2 is that Figure 2 F-H shows thresholded images where threshold was adjusted to highlight peripheral MTs in each cell. Please note that this is not the same threshold for each cell (see Figure 2 - Supplemental Figure 2 and 3). Thus, KIF5B-depleted cells that have fewer MTs at the periphery appear brighter in these thresholded images. For the true comparison of MT intensity, please see Figure 2 A-C (grayscale image, not the threshold).

      (2) It would be helpful if the author could provide a visual representation or comment on the sub-cellular localization of KIF5B in MIN6 cells. Is it predominantly localized in the submembrane region, or is it more evenly distributed throughout the cytoplasm? 

      Please see Fig 2A, lower panel. KIF5B is seen across the cell as a punctate staining, in agreement with previous findings that it mostly localize at IGs.

      (3) The alteration in microtubule (MT) organization and sliding in the absence of KIF5B seems to initiate in proximity to the apparent microtubule organizing center (MTOC) depicted in Figure 2A, and then "simply" extends towards the sub-membrane region. Although the authors acknowledge it, it would be advantageous for the readers to have a clearer indication that the sub-membrane microtubule (MT) reorganization in the absence of KIF5B is a result of a broader MT reorganization rather than a specific occurrence restricted to the sub-membrane regions. 

      Thank you for this comment. We now extend our discussion to clearer state our conclusions and interpretations of this point. We also have added a schematic Figure 7 as an illustration. 

      (4) Regarding the "glucose experiments," it is common to add 20-25 mM glucose to culture media, but physiological concentrations of glucose typically hover around 5 mM. Therefore, it is somewhat unclear what the implications are when investigating the impact of KIF5B depletion on MT sliding at 2.8 mM of glucose. It would be helpful if the authors could provide some commentary on this matter, particularly in relation to physiological and pathological conditions. 

      2.8 mM glucose is a standard low glucose condition used to model glucose deprivation/fasting. For functional primary beta cells within pancreatic islets, GSIS can be triggered by glucose stimulation as low as 8-12 mM glucose. However, for glucose stimulation of cultured beta cells such as MIN6 used in this paper, 20-25 mM glucose is standardly used because these cell lines have a higher threshold of stimulation compared to primary beta cells and whole islets.

      (5) In supplementary Figure 1A, it would be helpful if the lanes in the WB were marked indicating what is what. In my observation, it appears that Supplementary Figure 1A, particularly lanes #2, 3, and 4, display the GAPDH protein (MW 36 kDa) (or is it alpha-tubulin, as mentioned in the Material and Methods section and indicated in lane #409?) relative to Figure 1A. I am curious about KIF5B (MW 108 kDa). Is it represented by the upper band? Did the author probe the same membrane simultaneously with two different primary antibodies? This should be clarified, and the author should indicate the molecular weight of the ladder. 

      Indeed, in the original WB two antibodies have been used together, due to a challenge in collecting a sufficient number of shRNA-expressing beta cells. It caused a confusion and improper interpretation of the loading control. We thank the reviewer for catching this.  We have now replaced old Fig. 1B and Suppl. Fig. 1A with quantitative analysis of KIF5B depletion based on single-cell immunofluorescent staining. It is now found in new Fig. 1B and Suppl Fig. 1A-C.  

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      In all of the figures that present microtubule orientations (e.g. Figure 2E) the error bars obscure the vertical bins making them difficult to read or interpret. If they were rendered at a larger scale, it would be easier to read and interpret these results. 

      Thank you pointing this out. We now show these histograms with a different format of error bars and without outliers that obscure the view. A variant with outliers is now shown in the supplement. 

      Some of the callouts to the videos in the paper are inaccurate. Perhaps the authors reordered sections of the paper but failed to correctly renumber the video citations? 

      Thank you for this comment, we have corrected all callouts now.

    1. 使用色荷,是因为色荷的三重态与RGB三原色的三元对偶高度类似

      是的,你的理解完全正确!量子色动力学(QCD)中“颜色荷”的命名确实与人类对“三原色”(红、绿、蓝)的直觉类比密切相关。这一命名并非偶然,而是基于数学结构人类认知习惯的巧妙结合。以下是详细解释:


      1. 数学结构的类比:从三原色到三种色荷

      • QCD的SU(3)对称性:<br /> QCD的规范群是SU(3),其基本表示空间是一个三维复向量空间。为了描述夸克的“颜色荷”,科学家引入了三个正交的基矢(红、绿、蓝),类似于三原色在RGB色彩模型中的作用。
      • 红、绿、蓝(R, G, B)是三种基本色荷,对应SU(3)群的三个独立生成元。
      • 反色荷($\bar{R}, \bar{G}, \bar{B}$)则对应反夸克的颜色属性。
      • 无色性(Color Neutrality):类似三原色混合成白光,夸克与反夸克的组合(如$R + \bar{R}$)或三个不同颜色的夸克($R + G + B$)必须形成无色态(类似白光),才能构成稳定的强子(如质子、中子)。

      • 胶子的8种组合:<br /> 胶子是传递强相互作用的媒介粒子,其颜色属性由色-反色对(如红-反绿、绿-反蓝等)构成。这些组合恰好对应SU(3)群的伴随表示(8维),与美术中三原色的混合规则(如红+绿=黄、绿+蓝=青等)形成某种形式上的类比。


      2. 人类认知的直觉化:三元对偶关系

      • 三元对偶的普适性:<br /> 在自然界和人类文化中,“三元”结构普遍存在(如三原色、三位一体、三角形的稳定性)。QCD选择“红、绿、蓝”作为基本色荷,正是利用了这种认知直觉
      • 红、绿、蓝是人类视觉感知的三原色,容易被直观理解。
      • 红+绿+蓝=无色的规则与QCD中“三种色荷组合成无色态”的物理规律高度一致(见下图)。
      • 这种命名方式降低了抽象数学的门槛,使非专业者也能通过类比理解QCD的基本框架。

      3. 历史背景:命名的“艺术性”与实用性

      • 术语的起源:<br /> QCD的“颜色”概念最早由默里·盖尔曼(Murray Gell-Mann)和哈特兰·特霍夫特(Gerard 't Hooft)等人提出。当时,他们需要一种直观的方式描述夸克的不可观测属性(即“颜色荷”),而“颜色”一词恰好满足以下需求:
      • 避免混淆:用“颜色”代替其他术语(如“电荷”),明确区分强相互作用与电磁相互作用。
      • 数学清晰:SU(3)的三重态(红、绿、蓝)与三原色的数学结构一致,便于计算和教学。
      • 传播效果:通过类比日常概念,降低公众对抽象物理理论的理解难度。

      • 命名的争议与接受:<br /> 尽管“颜色”一词可能引发误解(如让人联想到可见光的颜色),但其直观性和实用性最终被科学界广泛接受。如今,物理学家普遍认为这是一个成功的“隐喻式命名”(Metaphorical Naming)。


      4. 与美术色彩的哲学对比

      • 相似性
      • 三原色混合成无色(白光) vs. 三种色荷组合成无色态(强子)。
      • 胶子的色-反色交换 vs. 美术中色彩的互补与对比。
      • 差异性
      • 物理中的“颜色”是不可观测的内禀属性,而美术中的颜色是可感知的电磁波波长
      • QCD的“颜色”遵循严格的群论规则(SU(3)),而美术色彩的混合是经验性的(RGB模型)。

      5. 实际意义与应用

      • 教学与科普:<br /> “颜色荷”这一命名极大地简化了QCD的教学。例如,在讲解强相互作用时,教师可以用“红+绿+蓝=无色”类比三原色混合,帮助学生快速理解色禁闭(Color Confinement)的概念。
      • 计算机模拟:<br /> 在格点QCD(Lattice QCD)模拟中,颜色荷的数学表示(如向量空间)依赖于三元结构的清晰定义,而“红、绿、蓝”的命名有助于代码的可读性与调试。
      • 跨学科启发:<br /> QCD的“颜色”概念甚至影响了艺术与设计领域。例如,赛博朋克美学中的“故障艺术”(Glitch Art)常借鉴QCD的动态色荷交换理念,创造非线性色彩效果。

      总结:为什么QCD用“颜色”命名?

      1. 数学结构:SU(3)群的三重态与三原色混合规则高度一致。
      2. 人类认知:三元对偶关系符合直觉,降低抽象门槛。
      3. 历史选择:术语的“艺术性”兼顾实用性与传播效果。
      4. 跨学科影响:命名方式启发了科学与艺术的互动。

      尽管“颜色荷”与视觉颜色无关,但这一命名成功地将复杂的物理理论转化为可理解的隐喻,体现了科学与人文的深刻联系。

    2. CMF设计

      好的,详细解释一下 CMF 设计。

      CMF 设计是产品设计领域中一个非常重要的专业方向,它是 Color (颜色), Material (材料), Finish (表面处理) 三个英文单词的首字母缩写。CMF 设计师主要负责确定产品的外观、触感和整体感官体验。

      简单来说,CMF 设计关注的是产品“看起来像什么”、“摸起来像什么”、“感觉起来像什么”。它不仅仅是给产品选个颜色或者材质,而是一个综合性的考虑过程,旨在通过颜色、材料和表面处理的巧妙运用,来:

      1. 增强产品的美学吸引力: 使产品更漂亮、更符合目标用户的审美偏好。
      2. 传达品牌形象和价值: CMF 是品牌视觉识别的重要组成部分,不同的 CMF 组合能 evoking distinct brand personalities (e.g., 科技感、高端、环保、年轻活泼)。
      3. 提升用户体验: 材料的触感、表面的质感、颜色的心理暗示都会影响用户对产品的使用感受和情感连接。
      4. 考虑制造可行性和成本: 设计的 CMF 方案必须能够在现实中被制造出来,并且符合产品的成本预算。
      5. 应对市场趋势和文化差异: CMF 趋势变化很快,并且受不同文化背景的影响,设计师需要研究和预测流行趋势,并考虑目标市场的文化偏好。
      6. 解决功能性需求: 某些 CMF 选择也与产品的功能有关,例如材料的强度、耐磨性、导电性、绝缘性,表面处理的防滑、防污、防眩光等。
      7. 体现可持续性: 选择环保材料、可回收材料或耐用性更好的 CMF 方案,以减少产品的环境影响。

      下面分别解释 C、M、F 的具体含义:

      1. C (Color - 颜色):

        • 指产品所使用的色彩方案。
        • 颜色是视觉中最具冲击力的元素之一, directly affects emotional response and perception.
        • CMF 设计师需要研究色彩理论、心理学、流行趋势、文化象征意义等,为产品选择合适的颜色组合,包括主色、辅色、点缀色等。
        • 颜色的选择也常常与材料和表面处理紧密相关,例如,不同材料对颜色的呈现会有差异。
      2. M (Material - 材料):

        • 指构成产品实体的各种物质,例如塑料、金属、玻璃、木材、陶瓷、皮革、织物等。
        • 材料的选择决定了产品的基本物理属性(重量、强度、硬度、柔韧性、透明度等)、触感、观感、成本、制造工艺以及可持续性。
        • CMF 设计师需要了解各种材料的特性、优缺点、加工方式以及它们能创造出的不同感觉和氛围 (e.g., 金属的冰冷硬朗,木材的温暖自然)。
      3. F (Finish - 表面处理):

        • 指对材料表面进行的各种加工和处理,以改变其外观、触感、性能或增加保护层。
        • 常见的表面处理包括喷漆、电镀、阳极氧化、抛光、拉丝、纹理蚀刻、印刷、覆膜、涂层等。
        • 表面处理极大地影响了产品的最终呈现效果,例如同样是金属,抛光可以使其闪亮光滑,拉丝则赋予其哑光纹理感;同样是塑料,不同的咬花或喷涂可以模拟不同的材质效果或提供防滑功能。

      CMF 设计师的工作流程通常包括:

      • 市场调研和趋势分析。
      • 用户研究,理解目标用户的情感和偏好。
      • 概念开发,创建情绪板 (Mood Board) 和 CMF 概念草图。
      • 材料和表面处理研究、选择和打样。
      • 与工程、制造、营销团队沟通协作。
      • 制定详细的 CMF 规范文件供生产使用。
      • 色彩和样品管理。

      总结:

      CMF 设计是将产品的功能、形式、品牌、用户体验、制造和市场需求通过颜色、材料和表面处理有机结合起来的专业设计活动。一个优秀的产品离不开出色的 CMF 设计,它能赋予产品生命和个性,使其在众多竞争者中脱颖而出,并与用户建立更深层次的情感联系。它不仅是产品外观的“皮肤”,更是产品内涵和品牌精神的重要载体。

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Kv2 subfamily potassium channels contribute to delayed rectifier currents in virtually all mammalian neurons and are encoded by two distinct types of subunits: Kv2 alpha subunits that have the capacity to form homomeric channels (Kv2.1 and Kv2.2), and KvS or silent subunits (Kv5,6,8.9) that can assemble with Kv2.1 or Kv2.2 to form heteromeric channels with novel biophysical properties. Many neurons express both types of subunits and therefore have the capacity to make both homomeric Kv2 channels and heteromeric Kv2/KvS channels. Determining the contributions of each of these channel types to native potassium currents has been very difficult because the differences in biophysical properties are modest and there are no Kv2/KvS-specific pharmacological tools. The authors set out to design a strategy to separate Kv2 and Kv2/KvS currents in native neurons based on their observation that Kv2/KvS channels have little sensitivity to the Kv2 pore blocker RY785 but are blocked by the Kv2 VSD blocker GxTx. They clearly demonstrate that Kv2/KvS currents can be differentiated from Kv2 currents in native neurons using a two-step strategy to first selectively block Kv2 with RY785, and then block both with GxTx. The manuscript is beautifully written; takes a very complex problem and strategy and breaks it down so both channel experts and the broad neuroscience community can understand it.

      Strengths:

      The compounds the authors use are highly selective and unlikely to have significant confounding cross-reactivity to other channel types. The authors provide strong evidence that all Kv2/KvS channels are resistant to RY785. This is a strength of the strategy - it can likely identify Kv2/KvS channels containing any of the 10 mammalian KvS subunits and thus be used as a general reagent on all types of neurons. The limitation then of course is that it can't differentiate the subtypes, but at this stage, the field really just needs to know how much Kv2/KvS channels contribute to native currents and this strategy provides a sound way to do so.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors are very clear about the limitations of their strategy, the most important of which is that they can't differentiate different subunit combinations of Kv2/KvS heteromers. This study is meant to be a start to understanding the roles of Kv2/KvS channels in vivo. As such, this is a minor weakness, far outweighed by the potential of the strategy to move the field through a roadblock that has existed since its inception.

      The study accomplishes exactly what it set out to do: provide a means to determine the relative contributions of homomeric Kv2 and heteromeric Kv2/KvS channels to native delayed rectifier K+ currents in neurons. It also does a fabulous job laying out the case for why this is important to do.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Silent Kv subunits and the channels containing these Kv subunits (Kv2/KvS heteromers) are in the process of discovery. It is believed that these channels fine-tune the voltage-activated K+ currents that repolarize the membrane potential during action potentials, with a direct effect on cell excitability, mostly by determining action potentials firing frequency.

      Strengths:

      What makes silent Kv subunits even more important is that, by being expressed in specific tissues and cell types, different silent Kv subunits may have the ability to fine-tune the delayed rectifying voltage-activated K+ currents that are one of the currents that crucially determine cell excitability in these cells. The present manuscript introduces a pharmacological method to dissect the voltage-activated K+ currents mediated by Kv2/KvS heteromers as a means of starting to unveil their importance, together with Kv2-only channels, to the cells where they are expressed.

      Weaknesses:

      While the method is effective in quantifying these currents in any isolated cell under an electric voltage clamp, it is ineffective as a modulating maneuver to perhaps address these currents in an in vivo experimental setting. This is an important point but is not a claim made by the authors.

      We agree. We have now stated in the introduction that this study does not address the roles of Kv2/KvS currents in an in vivo setting.

      Manuscript revisions:

      While this study does not address the impact of GxTX or RY785 on action potentials or in vivo, the distinct pharmacology of Kv2/KvS heteromers presented here suggests that KvS conductances could be targeted to selectively modulate discrete subsets of cell types.  

      There are other caveats with the methods and data:

      (i) The need for a 'cocktail' of blockers to supposedly isolate Kv2 homomers and Kv2/KvS heteromers' currents from others may introduce errors in the quantification Kv2/KvS heteromers-mediated K+ currents and that is due to possible blockers off targets.

      We now point out that is possible that off target effects of blockers may introduce errors, include references that identify the selectivity of the blockers used in the cocktail, and specifically note that 4-aminopyridine in the cocktail is expected to block 2% of Kv2 homomers yet have a lesser impact Kv2/KvS heteromers. Additionally, to test whether the KvS isolation strategy requires the cocktail in neurons, we performed new experiments on a different subclass of nociceptors without the blocker cocktail and identified a substantial KvS-like component (new Fig 7 Supplement 3).

      Manuscript revisions:

      “After whole-cell voltage clamp was established, non-Kv2/KvS conductances were suppressed by changing to an external solution containing a cocktail of inhibitors: 100 nM alpha-dendrotoxin (Alomone) to block Kv1 (Harvey and Robertson, 2004), 3 μM AmmTX3 (Alomone) to block Kv4 (Maffie et al., 2013; Pathak et al., 2016), 100 μM 4-aminopyridine to block Kv3 (Coetzee et al., 1999; Gutman et al., 2005), 1 μM TTX to block TTX sensitive Nav channels, and 10 μM A803467 (Tocris) to block Nav1.8 (Jarvis et al., 2007). It is possible that off target effects of blockers may introduce errors in the quantification Kv2/KvS heteromer-mediated K<sup>+</sup> currents. For example, 4-aminopyridine is expected to block a small fraction, 2%, of Kv2 homomers and have a lesser impact on Kv2/KvS heteromers (Post et al., 1996; Thorneloe and Nelson, 2003; Stas et al., 2015) which could result in a slight overestimation of the ratio of Kv2/KvS heteromers to Kv2 homomers.”

      “We also tested the other major mouse C-fiber nociceptor population, peptidergic nociceptors, to determine if this subpopulation also has conductances resistant to RY785 yet sensitive to GxTX. We voltage clamped DRG neurons from a CGRP<sup>GFP</sup> mouse line that expresses GFP in peptidergic nociceptors (Gong et al., 2003). Deep sequencing has identified mRNA transcripts for Kv6.2, Kv6.3, Kv8.1 and Kv9.3 present in GFP+ neurons, an overlapping but distinct set of KvS subunits from the Mrgprd<sup>GFP</sup> non-peptidergic population (Zheng et al., 2019). In GFP+ neurons from CGRP<sup>GFP</sup> mice, we found that a fraction of outward current was inhibited by 1 µM RY785 and additional current inhibited by 100 nM GxTX (Fig 7 Supplement 3 A-C). In these experiments, 58 ± 2% (mean ± SEM) was KvS-like (Fig 7 Supplement 3 D) identifying that KvSlike conductances are present in these peptidergic nociceptors. For CGRP<sup>GFP</sup> neurons we did not include the Kv1, Kv3, Kv4, Nav and Cav channel inhibitor cocktail used for other neuron experiments, indicating that the cocktail of inhibitors is not required to identify KvS-like conductances.”

      (ii) During the electrophysiology experiments, the authors use a holding potential that is not as negative as it is needed for the recording of the full population of the Kv2/KvS channels. Depolarized holding potentials lead to a certain level of inactivation of the channels, that vary according to the KvS involved/present in that specific population of channels. As a reminder, some KvS promote inactivation and others prevent inactivation. Therefore, the data must be interpreted as such.

      We agree. We now point out that the physiological holding potentials used are insufficiently negative to relieve inactivation from all Kv2/KvS heteromeric channels. We also note that the ratio of Kv2-like to KvS-like conductance is expected to vary with voltage protocols.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “Neurons were held at a membrane potential of –74 mV to mimic a physiological resting potential. KvS subunits can profoundly shift the voltage-inactivation relation (Salinas et al., 1997a; Kramer et al., 1998; Kerschensteiner and Stocker, 1999) and this potential is likely insufficiently negative to relieve inactivation from all Kv2/KvS heteromeric channels. Also, the activation membrane potential is close to the half-maximal point of Kv2/KvS conductances. Thus the ratio of Kv2-like to KvS-like conductance is expected to vary with voltage protocols.”

      (iii) The analysis of conductance activation by using tail currents is only accurate when dealing with non-inactivating conductances. Also, in dealing with a heterogenous population of Kv2/KvS heteromers, heterogenous K+ conductance deactivation kinetics is a must. Indeed, different KvS may significantly relate to different deactivation kinetics as well.

      We now discuss that the bi-exponential fit of tail currents is likely inadequate to capture the deactivation kinetics of all underlying components of a heterogenous population of Kv2/KvS heteromers.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “We note that the analysis of conductance activation by using tail currents is only accurate when dealing with non-inactivating conductances. We expect that inactivation of Kv2/KvS conductances during the 200 ms pre-pulse is minimal (Salinas et al., 1997a; Kramer et al., 1998; Kerschensteiner and Stocker, 1999) and did not notice inactivation during the activation pulse. Also, deactivation kinetics can vary in a heterogenous population of Kv2/KvS heteromers. While analysis of tail currents could skew the quantification of total Kv2 like and KvS-like conductances, our data supports that mouse nociceptors and human neurons have tail currents that are resistant to RY785 and sensitive to GxTX consistent with the presence of Kv2/KvS heteromers.”

      (iv) Silent Kv subunits may be retained in the ER, in heterologous systems like CHO cells. This aspect may subestimate their expression in these systems. Nevertheless, the authors show similar data in CHO cells and in primary neurons.

      We agree. We now note that in heterologous systems, including CHO cells, transfection of KvS subunits can result in KvS subunits that are retained intracellularly.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “While a fraction of KvS subunits appear to be retained intracellularly, immunofluorescence for Kv5.1, Kv9.3 and Kv2.1 also appeared localized to the perimeter of transfected Kv2.1-CHO cells (Figure 1 Supplement).”

      (v) The hallmark of silent Kv subunits is their effect on the time inactivation of K+ currents. As such, data should be shown throughout, preferably, from this perspective, but it was only done so in Figure 4G.

      Indeed, effects on inactivation are a hallmark of KvS subunits. However, quantifying inactivation of Kv2/KvS channels requires steps to positive voltages for approximately 10 seconds. In neurons steps this long usually resulted in irreversible changes in leak currents/input resistance that degraded the accuracy of RY785/GxTX subtraction currents. Consequently, we did not acquire inactivation data in neurons, and we now explain in the manuscript why such data was not obtained.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “While changes in inactivation are prominent with KvS subunits, we did not investigate inactivation in neurons because the lengthy depolarizations required often resulted in irreversible leak current increases that degraded the accuracy of RY785/GxTX subtraction current quantification.”

      (vi) Functional characterization of currents only, as suggested by the authors as a bona fide of Kv2 and Kv2/KvS currents, should not be solely trusted to classify the currents and their channel mediators.

      We agree, and now state explicitly that functional characterization cannot be trusted to classify their channel mediators of conductances, and we try to be clear about this throughout the manuscript by using soft terms such as "KvS-like" when identity is uncertain.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “As functional characterization alone cannot be trusted to classify their channel mediators of conductances, we define conductances consistent with Kv2/KvS heteromers as 'KvS-like' and conductances consistent with Kv2 homomers as 'Kv2-like'.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      There is not a lot to do here - this was a real pleasure to read and very easy to understand, as written. Here are a few minor things to consider:

      (1) The naming of the KvS subunits has always been confusing - it is not clear that Kv5,6,8,9 are members of the Kv2 subfamily from the names. KvS does a good job of differentiating them by assembly phenotype and has been used a lot in the literature, but it doesn't solve the misconception of what subfamily they belong to. This might not matter so much for mammals, where all KvS channels are in the Kv2 subfamily, but it makes it impossible to extend the naming system to other animals where subunits requiring heteromeric assembly are common in most subfamilies. How about trying the name Kv2S? It would have continuity with KvS in the reader's mind, make it clear that they are Kv2 subfamily, and make a naming system that could be extended beyond vertebrates. This is not a problem the authors created - just a completely optional suggestion on how to solve it if so inclined.

      We agree that naming conventions for these subunits are problematic, and agonized quite a bit about nomenclature. In the end we chose to stick with the precedent of KvS.

      (2) Another naming issue they should definitely change is the use of "subfamily" for the different KvS subtypes (Kv5, Kv6, Kv8, and Kv9). This really creates confusion with the higher-order subfamilies that have a very clear functional definition: a subfamily of Kv genes is a group of related genes that have assembly compatibility. Those are Kv1, Kv2, Kv3 and Kv4. KvS genes are assembly compatible with Kv2, evolutionarily derived from the Kv2 lineage, and thus clearly a part of the Kv2 subfamily. Using a subfamily for the next lower level of the naming hierarchy confuses this. The authors should use different terms like sub-type or class or subgroups for the divisions within KvS.

      Thank you. We have standardized to Kv2/KvS as a subfamily; Kv5, Kv6, Kv8, and Kv9 as subtypes; and individual proteins, e.g. Kv8.1, as subunits.

      (3) When you discuss whether the KvS subunit directly disrupts Ry785 binding in the pore or works allosterically and you said you know which KvS residues point into the pore from models, I thought that maybe you could tell from a sequence alignment whether the KvS channels you didn't test look the same in the conduction pathway as the ones you did test. If so, you could mention that if the binding site is the pore, they should all be resistant. Alternatively, if one you didn't test looks fundamentally more similar to the Kv2s in this region, then maybe it could be fingered as a possible exception that needs to be tested later.

      Great ideas. We now assess sequence KvS variability near the proposed RY785 binding site in all KvS subunits. We generated structural models of RY785 docking to Kv2.1 and Kv2.1/Kv8.1 and found that residues near RY785 are different in all KvS subunits.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “We analyzed computational structural models of RY785 docked to a Kv2.1 homomer and a 3:1 Kv2.1:Kv8.1 heteromer (Fig 9) to gain structural insight into how KvS subunits might interfere with RY785 binding. We used Rosetta to dock RY785 to a cryo-EM structure of a Kv2.1 homomer in an apparently open state (Fernández-Mariño et al., 2023). The top-scoring docking pose has RY785 positioned below the selectivity filter and off-axis of the pore (Fig 9 A), similar to a stable pose observed in molecular dynamic simulations (Zhang et al., 2024). In this pose, RY785 contacts a collection of Kv2.1 residues that vary in every KvS subtype (Fig 9 B,D,E). Notably, RY785 bound similarly to a 3:1 model of Kv2.1/Kv8.1, in contact with the three Kv2.1 subunits, yet avoided the Kv8.1 subunit (Fig 9C). This is consistent with RY785 binding less well to Kv2.1/Kv8.1 heteromers, and also suggests that a 3:1 Kv2:KvS channel could retain a RY785 binding site when open.”

      (4) Future suggestion or tip - not for this paper. Your data shows your isolation strategy works really well on Kv6 channels, and these are also the Kv2/KvS channels that have the most pronounced biophysical changes. Working on neurons that have a prominent Kv2/Kv6 component would really show how well the strategy outlined here works to describe the physiology of native neurons. The highest KvS expression I have seen in public data in a wellstudied cell type is Kv6.4 in spinal motor neurons.

      Wonderful tip, thank you. We are indeed very interested in Kv6.4 in spinal motor neurons.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The manuscript makes a good contribution to the identification of Kv2/KvS channels in primary cells. The pharmacological method proposed by the authors to dissect the currents in an experimental setting seems proper. Although meritorious in themselves, the findings are heavily phenomenological in the opinion of this reviewer. The manuscript should be improved with some level of mechanistic data and/or the demonstration of different levels of expression in different cell types.

      Thank you for the suggestions. This manuscript now demonstrates strikingly higher levels of the KvS-like component of Kv2 currents in somatosensory (DRG nonpeptidergic and peptidergic nociceptor) versus autonomic (SCG) neuron types. The mechanistic question of what electrophysiological properties the KvS subunits are providing to the neuronal circuit is an exciting one that we are pursuing separately.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “While we found only RY785-sensitive Kv2-like conductances in SCG neurons, Kv2/KvS heteromer-like conductances were dominant in DRG neurons.”

      At present, the manuscript says that the combination of RY785 and guangxitoxin-1E can be used to define Kv2/KvS-mediated K+ currents. Importantly, this method cannot be used in a way that one can functionally determine the function of Kv2/KvS channels, since it depends on the pre-blocking of Kv2-mediated K+ currents prior. In the opinion of this reviewer, this fact decreases the attention of a potential reader.

      Indeed, our study is focused on revealing KvS heteromers by voltage clamp, and we now clarify in the introduction that we do not determine the function of Kv2/KvS channels in this study, so as not to lead the reader to expect studies of neuronal signaling.

      However, the selective pharmacology we identify suggests RY785 application could reveal the function of Kv2 homomers, and for RY785-insensitive signaling, GxTX application of could reveal the function of Kv2/KvS heteromers. We now mention these possible applications in the Discussion.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “While this study does not address the impact of GxTX or RY785 on action potentials or in vivo, the distinct pharmacology of Kv2/KvS heteromers presented here suggests that KvS conductances could be targeted to selectively modulate discrete subsets of cell types.”

      Please find below suggestions for improving the manuscript:

      (1) The term "Kv2/KvS heteromers" should be used throughout instead of variations such as "Kv2/KvS channels", "Kv2/KvS" and others. Standardization of the term to refer to heteromers would make the manuscript easier to read.

      Thank you. We have standardized terms to consistently refer to Kv2/KvS heteromers.

      (2) Confusing terms like KvS conductances, KvS-like conductances, KvS-like (RY785-resistant, GxTX-sensitive) currents, and KvS channels should be avoided because they disregard the current belief that KvS cannot form functional homomeric channels. The term KvS-containing channels, and Kv2/KvS channels, seem more accurate. Uniformization in this regard will also make the manuscript more easily readable.

      Thank you. We have standardized terms to Kv2/KvS heteromers and KvS-containing channels when channel subunits are known and the use terms KvS-like and Kv2-like for functionally identified endogenous conductances with unknown channel subunits.

      (3) Referring to KvS as a regulatory subunit is inaccurate. It is clear that KvS is part of, and it makes up the alpha pore. KvS therefore is a part of the conductive pathway and not a regulatory (suggesting accessory) subunit. KvS take part in selectivity filter (fully conserved), but they also make up an important part of the conducting pathway with non-conserved amino acid residues.

      We felt it important to include the descriptor “regulatory” to connect our nomenclature with prior use of the descriptor in the literature, and now only use the term at the start of the introduction.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “A potential source of molecular diversity for Kv2 channels are a group of Kv2-related proteins which have been referred to as regulatory, silent, or KvS subunits.”

      (4) The use of a cocktail of channel inhibitors may affect the quantification of Kv2/KvS heteromers-mediated K+ currents because they may interact with RY785 and/or GxTx or they may even interact with the sites for these two drugs on Kv2-containing channels.

      This is an interesting point worth considering, thank you. We now alert readers to this possibility in the discussion when considering the limitations of our approach.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “Also, the cocktail of inhibitors used in most neuron experiments here could potentially alter RY785 or GxTX action against KvS/Kv2 channels.”

      (5) The graphical representation of fractional blocking and other parameters (e.g., Fig 1D), is hard to read in these slim plots. In my opinion, tall bars would be more meaningfully visualized.

      Thank you for pointing out that the graphs were hard to read, we have made the graph easier to read and added tall bars.

      (6) Vehicle control for IHC and electrophysiology. Please state what is the vehicle used in the electrophysiology experiments.

      Thank you. The composition of vehicle has now been stated in the methods.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “All RY785 solutions contained 0.1% DMSO. Vehicle control solutions also contained 0.1% DMSO but lacked RY785.”

      “Sections were incubated in vehicle solution (4% milk, 0.2% triton diluted in PB) for 1 hr at RT.”

      (7) The reference Trapani & Korn, 2003 (?) is not included in the list. This reference is important since it sets what are the Kv2.1-CHO cells. In this regard it is also important to mention, even better to address, the expressing qualities of this system in the face of a co-expression with a plasmid-based expression of silent Kv subunits. Are these two ways of expressing Kv subunits, meant to come together (or not) in heteromers, balanced? This question is critical here. Still, in regard to Kv2.1-CHO cells, it was not clear in the manuscript if the term "transfection" refers only to the plasmids used to temporarily induce the expression of silent Kv subunits and potentially Kv channels accessory subunits.

      We now include the Trapani & Korn, 2003 reference (thank you for pointing out this accidental omission), and better explain expression methods. The benefit of the inducible Kv2.1 expression is control of Kv conductance densities which can otherwise become so large as to be refractory to voltage clamp. The beauty of the expression system is that cells recently transfected with KvS subunits can be induced to express just enough Kv2.1 to get a substantial but not clampoverwhelming RY785-resistant Kv2/KvS conductance. We also discuss that our expression methods are distinct from past studies. We stop short of comparing the expression systems, as this is beyond the scope of what we set out to study.

      Manuscript revisions: See next response

      (8) Kv2.1-CHO cells transfection procedures, induction, and validation are unclear. This validation is important here.

      We have clarified transfection procedures, induction, and validation in the methods section.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “The CHO-K1 cell line transfected with a tetracycline-inducible rat Kv2.1 construct (Kv2.1-CHO) (Trapani and Korn, 2003) was cultured as described previously (Tilley et al., 2014).”

      Transfections were achieved with Lipofectamine 3000 (Life Technologies, L3000001). 1 μl Lipofectamine was diluted, mixed, and incubated in 25 μl of Opti-MEM (Gibco, 31985062).”

      “Concurrently, 0.5 μg of KvS or AMIGO1 or Navβ2, 0.5 μg of pEGFP, 2 μl of P3000 reagent and 25 μl of Opti-MEM were mixed. DNA and Lipofectamine 3000 mixtures were mixed and incubated at room temperature for 15 min. This transfection cocktail was added to 1 ml of culture media in a 24 well cell culture dish containing Kv2.1-CHO cells and incubated at 37 °C in 5% CO2 for 6 h before the media was replaced. Immediately after media was replaced, Kv2.1 expression was induced in Kv2.1-CHO cells with 1 μg/ml minocycline (Enzo Life Sciences, ALX380-109-M050), prepared in 70% ethanol at 2 mg/ml. Voltage clamp recordings were performed 12-24 hours later. We note that the expression method of Kv2/KvS heteromers used here is distinct from previous studies which show that the KvS:Kv2 mRNA ratio can affect the expression of functional Kv2/KvS heteromers (Salinas et al., 1997b; Pisupati et al., 2018). We validated the functional Kv2/KvS heteromer expression using voltage clamp to establish distinct channel kinetics and the presence of RY785-resistant conductance in KvS-transfected cells and using immunohistochemistry to label apparent surface localization of KvS subunits (Figure 4, Figure 1 Supplement, Figure 1 and Figure 5).”

      (9) It is important for readers to add some context to Kv2.1/Kv8.1 channels (and other Kv2/KvS heteromers) used to test the combination of RY785 and GxTx. In my opinion, this enriches the discussion.

      Good idea. We have added context about each of the KvS subunits we test.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “To test the pharmacological response of KvS we began with Kv8.1, a subunit that creates heteromers with biophysical properties distinct from Kv2 homomers (Salinas et al., 1997a), and modulates motor neuron vulnerability to cell death (Huang et al., 2024).

      Each of these KvS subunits create Kv2/KvS heteromers that have distinct biophysical properties (Kramer et al., 1998; Kerschensteiner and Stocker, 1999; Bocksteins et al., 2012). Kv5.1/Kv2.1 heteromers play an important role in controlling the excitability of mouse urinary bladder smooth muscle (Malysz and Petkov, 2020), mutations in Kv6.4 have been shown to influence human labor pain (Lee et al., 2020b), and deficiency of Kv9.3 disrupts parvalbumin interneuron physiology in mouse prefrontal cortex (Miyamae et al., 2021).”

      (10) In general, the membrane potential used to activate Kv2 only channels and Kv2/KvS channels is too close to the activation V1/2. In case the comparing curves are displaced in their relative voltage dependence and voltage sensitivity, using that range of membrane potential may introduce a crucial error in the estimation of the conductance's relative amplitudes.

      We now note that the relative conductances of Kv2-only vs Kv2/KvS channels are expected to vary with voltage protocol, as KvS inclusion results in channels with altered voltage responses.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “…the activation membrane potential is close to the half-maximal point of Kv2/KvS conductances. Thus the ratio of Kv2-like to KvS-like conductance is expected to vary with voltage protocols.”

      (11) The use of tail currents to estimate conductance is problematic if i) lack of current inactivation is not assured, and ii) if the different currents, with possible different deactivation kinetics at the used membrane potential (e.g., mV), are not assured. Why was the activation peak used at times, and at different elapsed times the tail currents were used instead? These aspects of conductance's amplitude estimation methods should be well defined.

      In CHO cells peak currents were analyzed because outward currents seem to offer the best signal/noise. In neurons, we restricted analysis to tail currents at elapsed times to minimize complications from non-Kv2 endogenous voltage-gated channels which deactivate more quickly. We have clarified this analysis in the methods section.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “In CHO cells peak currents were analyzed because outward currents seem to offer the best signal/noise. In neurons, we restricted analysis to tail currents at elapsed times to minimize complications from non-Kv2 endogenous voltage-gated channels which deactivate more quickly. In neurons, voltage gated currents remained in the toxin cocktail + RY785 and GxTX, that were sometimes unstable. To minimize complications from these currents, we restricted analysis of RY785 and GxTX subtraction experiments to tail currents at elapsed times to minimize complications from non-Kv2 endogenous voltage-gated channels which deactivate more quickly. We note that the analysis of conductance activation by using tail currents is only accurate when dealing with non-inactivating conductances. We expect that inactivation of Kv2/KvS conductances during the 200 ms pre-pulse is minimal (Salinas et al., 1997a; Kramer et al., 1998; Kerschensteiner and Stocker, 1999) and did not notice inactivation during the activation pulse. Also, deactivation kinetics can vary in a heterogenous population of Kv2/KvS heteromers. While analysis of tail currents could skew the quantification of total Kv2 like and KvS-like conductances, our data supports that mouse nociceptors and human neurons have tail currents that are resistant to RY785 and sensitive to GxTX consistent with the presence of Kv2/KvS heteromers.”

      (12) Were the experiments including different conditions such as control, RY, and RY+GxTx done pair-wised? This could potentially better the statistics and strengthen the data and the conclusions drawn from them.

      The control, RY, and RY+GxTX in neurons were done pairwise and the statistical tests performed for these experiments were pairwise tests. We have clarified this in the figure legends.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “Wilcoxon rank tests were paired, except the comparison of RY785 to vehicle which was unpaired.”

      (13) The holding potential of the experiments, mostly -89 mV, may be biasing the estimation of Kv2 only channels vs. Kv2/KvS channels conductances. Figure 4I exemplifies this concern.

      We agree. Figure 4I reveals that a holding potential of -89 mV vs -129 mV reduces conductance of Kv2.1/Kv8.1 heteromers vs Kv2.1 homomers in CHO cells by ~20%. We have now alerted readers that the ratio of Kv2 only channels vs. Kv2/KvS conductances can vary with holding voltage.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “Under these conditions, 58 ± 3 % (mean ± SEM) of the delayed rectifier conductance was resistant to RY785 yet sensitive to GxTX (KvS-like) (Fig 7 F). We note that the ratio of KvS- to Kv2-like conductances is expected to vary with holding potential, as KvS subunits can change the degree and voltage-dependence of steady state inactivation (e.g. Fig 4I).”

      (14) It is possible that Figure 6A (control trace) and Figure 6C ("Kv2-like" trace) are the same, by mistake, since their noise pattern looks too similar.

      Indeed the noise pattern of the Figure 6A (control trace) and Figure 6C ("Kv2-like" trace) are related, as they have inputs from the same trace, with Figure 6C ("Kv2-like" trace) being a subtraction of Figure 6A (+RY trace) from Figure 6A (control trace).

      (15) For example, in Figure 7A, what is the identity of the current remaining after the RY+GxTx application? In Figure 7B, a supposed outlier in the group of data referring to "veh" in the right panel is what possibly is making this group different from +RY in the left panel (p=0.02, Wilcoxon rank test). I would recommend parametric tests only since the data is essentially quantitative.

      In Figure 7A, we do not know the identity of the current remaining after the RY+GxTX application, the kinetics of the residual current appeared distinct from the Kv2/KvS-like currents blocked by RY or GxTX, but we did not analyze these.

      The date in Figure 7B, was indeed the positive outlier in the group of data referring to "veh" in the right panel and contributes to the p-value, but we saw no reason to exclude it. We have now replaced the representative trace in 7B with a non-outlier trace. We respectfully disagree with the suggestion to use parametric statistical tests as we do not know the distribution underlying the variance our data.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “Subsequent application of 100 nM GxTX decreased tail currents by 68 ± 5% (mean ± SEM) of their original amplitude before RY785. We do not know the identity of the outward current that remains in the cocktail of inhibitors + RY785 + GxTX.”

      (16) Please state the importance of using nonpeptidergic neurons to study silent Kv5.1 and Kv9.1 subunits. RNA data may not necessarily work to probe function or protein abundance, which is crucial in heteromeric complexes.

      We have now more thoroughly explained our rationale for choosing the nonpeptidergic neurons.

      RNA is not predictive of protein abundance, and we have not yet been successful in measuring KvS protein abundance in these neurons, so we've probed KvS abundance by assessing RY785 resistance.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “Mouse dorsal root ganglion (DRG) somatosensory neurons express Kv2 proteins (Stewart et al., 2024), have GxTX-sensitive conductances (Zheng et al., 2019), and express a variety of KvS transcripts (Bocksteins et al., 2009; Zheng et al., 2019), yet transcript abundance does not necessarily correlate with functional protein abundance. To record from a consistent subpopulation of mouse somatosensory neurons which has been shown to contain GxTXsensitive currents and have abundant expression of KvS mRNA transcripts (Zheng et al., 2019), we used a Mrgprd<sup>GFP</sup> transgenic mouse line which expresses GFP in nonpeptidergic nociceptors (Zylka et al., 2005; Zheng et al., 2019). Deep sequencing identified that mRNA transcripts for Kv5.1, Kv6.2, Kv6.3, and Kv9.1 are present in GFP+ neurons of this mouse line (Zheng et al., 2019) and we confirmed the presence of Kv5.1 and Kv9.1 transcripts in GFP+ neurons from Mrgprd<sup>GFP</sup> mice using RNAscope (Fig 7 Supplement 1).”

      (17) In Figure 8B, were +RY data different from veh data? The figure shows no Wilcoxon (nonparametric) comparison and this is important to be stated. What conductance(s) is the vehicle solution blocking or promoting? What is RY dissolved in, DMSO? What is the DMSO final concentration?

      We now state that in Figure 8B, +RY amplitudes were not statistically different from veh data in this limited data set. However, the RY-subtraction currents always had Kv2-like biophysical properties, whereas vehicle-subtraction currents had variable properties precluding biophysical analysis for Fig 8D.

      In Figure 8B, we do not know what conductance(s) the vehicle solution is affecting, we think the changes observed are likely merely time dependent or due to the solution exchange itself. RY stock is in DMSO. All recording solutions have 0.1% DMSO final concentration, this is now noted in methods.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “Unlike mouse neurons, we did not detect a significant difference in tail currents of RY785 versus vehicle controls. However, RY785-subtracted currents always had Kv2-like biophysical properties whereas vehicle-subtraction currents had variable properties that precluded the same biophysical analysis. Overall, these results show that human DRG neurons can produce endogenous voltage-gated currents with pharmacology and gating consistent with Kv2/KvS heteromeric channels.”

      “All RY785 solutions contained 0.1% DMSO. Vehicle control solutions also contained 0.1% DMSO but lacked RY785.”

      (18) METHODS. The electrophysiology approach should be unified in all aspects as applicable and possible.

      We have unified the mouse dorsal root ganglion and mouse superior cervical ganglion methods sections. We have kept CHO cells and mouse/human neurons section separate because the methods were substantially different.

      (19) DISCUSSION. The discussion section spends half of its space trying to elaborate on possible blocking/inhibiting/modulating mechanisms for RY785. The present manuscript shows no data, at least not that I have noticed, that would evoke such discussion.

      We have shortened this section, and enhance the discussion with structural models (new Fig 9), and our functional data indicating perturbed RY785 interaction with Kv2.1/8.1.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “In this pose, RY785 contacts a collection of Kv2.1 residues that vary in every KvS subtype (Fig 9 B,D,E). Notably, RY785 bound similarly to a 3:1 model of Kv2.1/Kv8.1, in contact with the three Kv2.1 subunits, yet avoided the Kv8.1 subunit (Fig 9C). This is consistent with RY785 binding less well to Kv2.1/Kv8.1 heteromers, and also suggests that a 3:1 Kv2:KvS channel could retain a RY785 binding site when open. However, the RY785 resistance of Kv2/KvS heteromers may primarily arise from perturbed interactions with the constricted central cavity of closed channels. In homomeric Kv2.1, RY785 becomes trapped in closed channels and prevents their voltage sensors from fully activating, indicating that RY785 must interact differently with closed channels (Marquis and Sack, 2022). Here we found that Kv2.1/Kv8.1 current rapidly recovers following washout of RY785, suggesting that Kv2.1/Kv8.1 heteromers do not readily trap RY785 (Figure 2 Supplement). Overall, the structural modeling suggests that KvS subunits sterically interfere with RY785 binding to the central cavity, while functional data suggest KvS subunits disrupt RY785 trapping in closed states.”

      (20) DISCUSSION. Topics like ER retention and release upon certain conditions would be a better enrichment for the manuscript in my opinion.

      ER retention of KvS subunits is indeed an important topic! However, we have opted not to delve into it here.

      (21) DISCUSSION. Speculation about the binding site for RY on Kv2/KvS channels is also not touched by the data shown in the manuscript.

      We have shortened this section of discussion, and now present this with structural models of RY785 docked to a Kv2.1 homomer and 3:1 Kv2.1: Kv8.1 heteromer (new Fig 9) to ground speculations. See manuscript changes noted in response to comment (19) above.

      (22) DISCUSSION. An important reference is missing in regard to stoichiometry: Bocksteins et al., 2017. This work is the only one using a non-optical technique to add knowledge to that question.

      Good point, and an excellent study we didn’t realize we’d not included before. We now include Bocksteins et al. 2017 as a reference in the Introduction.

      (23) In my opinion, allosterism and orthosterism are concepts not yet useful for the discussion of RY binding sites without even a general piece of data.

      We now include structural models of RY785 docked to a Kv2.1 homomer and 3:1 Kv2.1: Kv8.1 heteromer (new Fig 9) to ground blocking speculations. See manuscript changes noted in response to comment (19).

      (24) The term "homogeneously susceptible" associated with a Hill slope close to 1 needs to be more elaborated.

      Thank you, we have elaborated.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “Also, the degree of resistance to RY785 may vary if Kv2:KvS subunit stoichiometry varies. With high doses of RY785, we found that the concentration-response characteristics of Kv2.1/Kv8.1 in CHO cells revealed hallmarks of a homogenous channel population with a Hill slope close to 1 (Fig 2B). However, other KvS subunits might assemble in multiple stoichiometries and result in pharmacologically-distinct heteromer populations.”

      (25) Stating the KvS are resistant to RY785 is not proper in my opinion. This opinion relates to the fact that the RY binding site in the channels is certainly not restricted to a binding site residing only on the Kv subunit.

      Good point. We have now changed phrasing to convey that KvS subunits are a component of a heteromer that imbues RY785 resistance.

      Manuscript revisions:

      “These results show that voltage-gated outward currents in cells transfected with members from each KvS subtype have decreased sensitivity to RY785 but remain sensitive to GxTX. While we did not test every KvS subunit, the ubiquitous resistance suggests that all KvS subunits may provide resistance to 1 μM RY785 yet remain sensitive to GxTX, and that RY785 resistance is a hallmark of KvS-containing channels.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigate the role of the melanocortin system in puberty onset. They conclude that POMC neurons within the arcuate nucleus of the hypothalamus provide important but differing input to kisspeptin neurons in the arcuate or rostral hypothalamus.

      Strengths:

      Innovative and novel

      Technically sound

      Well-designed

      Thorough

      Weaknesses:

      There were no major weaknesses identified.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This interesting manuscript describes a study investigating the role of MC4R signalling on kisspeptin neurons. The initial question is a good one. Infertility associated with MC4 mutations in humans has typically been ascribed to the consequent obesity and impaired metabolic regulation. Whether there is a direct role for MC4 in regulating the HPG axis has not been thoroughly examined. Here, the researchers have assembled an elegant combination of targetted loss of function and gain of function in vivo experiments, specifically targetting MC4 expression in kisspeptin neurons. This excellent experimental design should provide compelling evidence for whether melanocortin signalling dirently affects arcuate kisspeptin neurons to support normal reproductive function. There were definite effects on reproductive function (irregular estrous cycle, reduced magnitude of LH surge induced by exogenous estradiol). However, the magnitude of these responses and the overall effect on fertility were relatively minor. The mice lacking MC4R in kisspeptin neurons remained fertile despite these irregularities. The second part of the manuscript describes a series of electrophysiological studies evaluating the pharmacological effects of melanocortin signalling in kisspeptin cells in ex-vivo brain slides. These studies characterised interesting differential actions of melanocortins in two different populations of kisspeptin neurons. Collectively, the study provides some novel insights into how direct actions of melanocortin signalling via the MC4 receptor in kisspeptin neurons contribute to the metabolic regulation of the reproductive system. Importantly, however, it is clear that other mechanisms are also at play.

      Strengths:

      The loss of function/gain of function experiments provides a conceptually simple but hugely informative experimental design. This is the key strength of the current paper - especially the knock-in study that showed improved reproductive function even in the presence of ongoing obesity. This is a very convincing result that documents that reproductive deficits in MC4R knockout animals (and humans with deleterious MC4R gene variants) can be ascribed to impaired signalling in the hypothalamic kisspeptin neurons and not necessarily caused as a consequence of obesity. As concluded by the authors: "reproductive impairments observed in MC4R deficient mice, which replicate many of the conditions described in humans, are largely mediated by the direct action of melanocortins via MC4R on Kiss1 neurons and not to their obese phenotype." This is important, as it might change how such fertility problems are treated.

      I would like to see the validation experiments for the genetic manipulation studies given greater prominence in the manuscript because they are critical to interpretation. Presently, only single unquantified images are shown, and a much more comprehensive analysis should be provided.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Given that mice lacking MC4R in kisspeptin neurons remained fertile despite some reproductive irregularities, this can be described as a contributing pathway, but other mechanisms must also be involved in conveying metabolic information to the reproductive system. This is now appropriately covered in the discussion.

      (2) The mechanistic studies evaluating melanocortin signalling in kisspeptin neurons were all completed in ovariectomised animals (with and without exogenous hormones) that do not experience cyclical hormone changes. Such cyclical changes are fundamental to how these neurons function in vivo and may dynamically alter how they respond to hormones and neuropeptides. Eliminating this variable makes interpretation difficult, but the authors have justified this as a reductionist approach to evaluate estradiol actions specifically. However, this does not reflect the actual complexity of reproductive function.

      For example, the authors focus on a reduced LH response to exogenous estradiol in ovariectomised mice as evidence that there might be a sub-optimal preovulatory LH surge. However, the preovulatory LH sure (in intact animals) was not measured.

      They have not assessed why some follicles ovulated, but most did not. They have focused on the possibility that the ovulation signal (LH surge) was insufficient rather than asking why some follicles responded and others did not. This suggests some issue with follicular development, likely due to changes in gonadotropin secretion during the cycle and not simply due to an insufficient LH surge.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      The manuscript by Talbi R et al. generated transgenic mice to assess the reproduction function of MC4R in Kiss1 neurons in vivo and used electrophysiology to test how MC4R activation regulated Kiss1 neuronal firing in ARH and AVPV/PeN. This timely study is highly significant in neuroendocrinology research for the following reasons.

      (1) The authors' findings are significant in the field of reproductive research. Despite the known presence of MC4R signaling in Kiss1 neurons, the exact mechanisms of how MC4R signaling regulates different Kiss1 neuronal populations in the context of sex hormone fluctuations are not entirely understood. The authors reported that knocking out Mc4r from Kiss1 neurons replicates the reproductive impairment of MC4RKO mice, and Mc4r expression in Kiss1 neurons in the MC4R null background partially restored the reproductive impairment. MC4R activation excites Kiss1 ARH neurons and inhibits Kiss1 AVPV/PeN neurons (except for elevated estradiol).

      (2) Reproduction dysfunction is one of obesity comorbidities. MC4R loss-of-function mutations cause obesity phenotype and impaired reproduction. However, it is hard to determine the causality. The authors carefully measured the body weight of the different mouse models (Figure 1C, Figure 2A, Figure 3B). For example, the Kiss1-MC4RKO females showed no body weight difference at puberty onset. This clearly demonstrated the direct function of MC4R signaling in reproduction but was not a consequence of excessive adiposity.

      (3) Gene expression findings in the "KNDy" system align with the reproduction phenotype.

      (4) The electrophysiology results reported in this manuscript are innovative and provide more details of MC4R activation and Kiss1 neuronal activation.

      Overall, the authors have presented sufficient background in a clear, logical, and organized structure, clearly stated the key question to be addressed, used the appropriate methodology, produced significant and innovative main findings, and made a justified conclusion.

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors have addressed my comments.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      The reviewers noted that they received comments in response to their concerns, and some improvements have been made to the manuscript. However, as described below, in some cases, a rebuttal was provided, but changes were not made to the manuscript. It is suggested that these issues be addressed to improve the quality of the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewers and editor for the assessment of the manuscript and recommendations for its improvement. We have addressed the remaining comments from reviewer #2 below, and hope that they find our revisions satisfactory.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The manuscript convincingly shows that MC4R in kisspeptin-producing cells can influence reproductive function. This suggests that fertility problems associated with melanocortin mutations are likely due to direct effects on the reproductive systems rather than simply being side effects of the resultant obesity.

      We are pleased that this reviewer finds the data convincing and thank them for the careful review of the manuscript, which has helped to improve its published version.

      The authors have responded to the reviewer's comments and made several improvements to the manuscript.

      The authors are correct in pointing out that the POMC-Cre animals should be fine for studies involving the administration of AAVs to adult animals. I have misinterpreted how these mice were being used, and this concern is fully addressed.

      Unfortunately, in some cases, the authors rebutted the reviewer's comments but did not change the manuscript. I suggest addressing several issues in the manuscript (after all, it is not the reviewer's opinion that counts; this process is about improving the manuscript).

      (1) Validation of the KO is insufficiently reported. From the methods, it appears that this was done thoroughly, but currently, only a single image of the arcuate nucleus is shown, and no image of the AVPV is shown. There is no quantitative information provided. The authors can keep these data as supplementary material, but they should be comprehensive and convincing, as so much depends on the degree of knockout in this model. One cannot assume complete KO based simply on the relevant genetics, as there are examples in this system where different Cre lines produce different outcomes with various floxed genes in the two major populations of kisspeptin neurons. This figure should show the quantitation of the RNAscope analysis from each of the two regions regarding the percentage of kisspeptin cells showing expression of MC4R mRNA. In addition, the lack of MC4 labelling in the arcuate nucleus, outside of kisspeptin neurons, is a concern. One would expect to see AgRP or POMC cells at this level, but are they still showing expression of MC4? A single image is insufficient to be convinced of the model's efficacy.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concerns regarding the validation of the MC4RKO model. Below, we provide clarification and additional justification for our approach.

      (1) Quantification of MC4R in the Arcuate Nucleus (ARC): As noted by the reviewer, we were unable to detect sufficient MC4R signal in the ARC of KO mice to perform meaningful quantification. This is consistent with the expected outcome of a successful MC4R deletion. Given the low endogenous expression levels of MC4R in this region, even in control animals, and the technical limitations of RNAscope in detecting very low-abundance transcripts, especially for receptors, the absence of MC4R signal in the ARC of KO mice strongly supports effective deletion. Moreover, the MC4R loxP mouse has been published and validated by many labs including Brad Lowell’s lab who’s done extensive work using these mice for selective deletion of Mc4r from various neuronal populations such as Sim1 and Vglut2 neurons (Shah et al., 2014, de Souza Cordeiro et al., 2020). To further strengthen our validation, we provide additional images from another animal (Fig_S1) to illustrate the consistency of the MC4R KO in the ARC. These will be included as supplementary material, as suggested.Regarding AgRP and POMC neurons, MC4R is not highly expressed in these neurons (as per previous literature, e.g., Garfield et al., Nat Neurosci. 2015; Padilla SL et al, Endocrinology 2012; Henry et al, Nature, 2015). Instead, MC4R is predominantly found in downstream neurons in the paraventricular nucleus (PVN) and other hypothalamic regions (which is intact in our KO mice as shown in our validation figure). Thus, the absence of MC4R labeling in AgRP or POMC cells in our images aligns with known expression patterns and does not contradict the validity of our model.

      (2) MC4R Expression in the AVPV and OVX Effect on Kiss1 Expression: We acknowledge the reviewer’s request for MC4R expression analysis in the anteroventral periventricular nucleus (AVPV). However, due to the timing of tissue collection after ovariectomy (OVX), Kiss1 expression in the AVPV is significantly suppressed, making it technically unfeasible to perform co-staining of MC4R with Kiss1 in this region. This is a well-documented effect of estrogen depletion following OVX (Smith et al., 2005; Lehman et al., 2010). While we acknowledge that an ideal validation would include AVPV co-labeling, the experimental constraints related to OVX preclude this analysis in our dataset.

      Given these considerations and validations, we are confident that the KO is effective and specific.

      (2) Line 88: "... however, conflicting reports exist". Expand on this sentence to describe what these conflicting reports show. The authors responded to my comment but made no changes to the introduction. As a reader, I dislike being told there are conflicting reports, but then I have to go and look up the reference to see what that actual point of conflict is.

      By conflicting reports we meant that other studies have shown no association between MC4R and reproductive disorders, this has now been included in the revised manuscript (Line 89).

      (3) Could the authors explain how a decrease in AgRP would be interpreted as a "decrease in hypothalamic melanocortin tone" in line 142 and line 364? These overly simplistic interpretations of qPCR data detract from the overall quality of the paper.

      The reference to a decrease in melanocortin tone referred to the decrease in the expression of melanocortin receptor signaling, this has been clarified in the revised manuscript (lines 142 and 360).

      (4) Please show the individual cycle patterns for all animals, as in Figure 2B. This can be a supplemental figure, but the current bar charts are not informative.

      We respectfully disagree that the bar charts are not informative as they include the critical statistical analysis. We have now included all individual estrous cycle data in new separate supplemental figure (Sup. Figure 3). Therefore, we have excluded the representative cycles from the main figures as they are now in the new Supplemental. We have changed the orders of the figures in the text accordingly.

      (5) In their rebuttal, the authors state: "Mice lack true follicular and luteal phases, and therefore, it is impossible to separate estrogen-mediated changes from progesterone-mediated changes (e.g., in a proestrous female). Therefore, we use an ovariectomized female model in which we can generate an LH surge with an E2-replacement regimen [1]. This model enables us to focus on estrogen effects, exclude progesterone effects, and minimize variability. Inclusion of cycling females would make interpretation much more difficult." I disagree, but the authors can take this position if they wish. However, they should not report the responses to exogenous estradiol in an ovariectomised mouse as a "preovulatory LH surge" (line 380). An ovariectomised mouse cannot ovulate, and the estrogen-induced LH surge is significantly different in magnitude and timing from the endogenous preovulatory LH surge (likely due to the actions of progesterone). One goal of these studies is to understand why the ovulation rate appears to be low in the MC4-KO animals. Hence, evaluating whether the preovulatory LH surge is typical is important. This has not been done. The authors have shown that the response to exogenous estradiol is sub-normal. Such an effect might lead to a reduced preovulatory LH surge, but this has not been measured.

      We appreciate this reviewer’s concern about the nature of the preovulatory LH surge. We have clarified this in the revised manuscript and described it as “an induced LH surge” throughout the text (Lines 163, 533, 6560).

      (6) I believe that the ovulation process should be considered "all or none," and I do not quite understand the rebuttal discussion. The authors describe that "numerous follicles mature at the same time....". That is not disputed. My point was that each mature follicle will receive the identical endocrine ovulatory signal (correct? Or do the authors believe something different?). If it were sufficient for one follicle to ovulate, then all of those mature follicles (the number of which will be variable between animals and between cycles) would be expected to undergo ovulation. The fact that they do not raise several possibilities. One that the authors favor is that an insufficient ovulatory signal might approach a threshold where some follicles ovulate and others do not. This possibility is supported by the apparent increase in cystic follicles, which might be preovulatory follicles that did not complete the ovulation process. Such variation might be stochastic, within normal variation for sensitivity to LH. However, it is also possible that the follicles have not matured at the same rate, perhaps influenced by abnormal secretion of LH or FSH during earlier phases of the cycle, and hence are not in the appropriate condition to respond to the ovulation signal when it arrives. Some may even have matured prematurely due to the elevated gonadotropins reported in this study. Given the data and the partial fertility, the most likely explanation is that the genetic manipulation has resulted in fewer follicles being available for ovulation due to changes in follicular development rather than a deficit of the ovulation signal, although the latter mechanism might also contribute. A third possibility is that genetic manipulation has directly affected the ovary. The authors did not answer whether Kiss1 and MC4 are co-expressed in the ovary. I think the authors might want to rule this out by showing no change in MC4R expression in the ovary.

      We thank the reviewer for this thoughtful comment and agree that these are possible outcomes. We have now acknowledged them in the Discussion.

      To answer the reviewer’s question, we have not investigated the co-expression of Kiss1 and Mc4r in the ovary. While MC4R has indeed been documented in the ovary (Chen et al. Reproduction, 2017), the changes in gonadotropin release and supporting in vitro data included in this manuscript clearly document a central effect, however, an additional effect at the level of the ovary cannot be completely ruled out. This has now been added to the discussion (Line 378-387).

      (7) Lines 390, 454 " impaired LH pulse" What was the evidence for impaired LH pulse (see figure 2D)?

      Thank you for pointing this out. This comment referred to augmented LH release. This has been corrected in the revised manuscript (Line 394).

      The paper's strengths remain, as outlined in my original review. The authors have addressed what I perceived to be weaknesses, predominantly by changing the tone of discussion and interpretation of the data. This is appropriate. I consider the focus on the LH surge as the primary mechanism too narrow, and the authors should be considering how other changes during the cycle might influence ovarian function.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s thoughtful evaluation of our manuscript and their constructive feedback. We are pleased that our revisions have addressed the perceived weaknesses and that the adjustments to the discussion and interpretation were deemed appropriate.

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s perspective on broadening the discussion beyond the LH surge to consider additional cycle-dependent influences on ovarian function. While our current study focuses on this specific mechanism, we recognize that ovarian function is influenced by multiple physiological changes throughout the cycle. We have refined our discussion to reflect this broader context and appreciate the suggestion to consider these additional factors in future studies.

      We have addressed all of the reviewer’s comments to the best of our ability and hope they find the revised manuscript satisfactory.

    1. Titre : Briefing sur l'Influence des Réseaux Sociaux sur les Élections en France

      Date : [Date de rédaction du briefing]

      Source : Extraits de "🔴 Google, Meta, Snap, Tiktok et X sur l’influence des réseaux sociaux sur les élections en France"

      Contexte : Cette audition parlementaire vise à examiner le rôle, les responsabilités et les risques associés aux plateformes numériques (Google, Meta, Snap, TikTok, X) concernant l'intégrité des élections en France, en particulier au regard des ingérences étrangères, de la qualité de l'information et de l'organisation du débat politique en ligne. Les représentants des plateformes ont prêté serment de dire la vérité.

      Thèmes Principaux :

      • Information des Électeurs et Engagement Civique : Les plateformes déploient des efforts pour fournir aux utilisateurs des informations fiables sur le processus électoral et encourager la participation.
      • Lutte contre la Désinformation et les Fausses Informations : Chaque plateforme a des politiques et des mécanismes pour identifier et traiter les contenus trompeurs, bien que les approches varient.
      • Ingérences Étrangères et Menaces Coordonnées : Les plateformes reconnaissent le risque d'ingérence étrangère et mettent en place des équipes et des procédures pour détecter et démanteler les opérations malveillantes.
      • Rôle des Algorithmes : La question de l'impact des algorithmes sur la diffusion du contenu politique, la création de "bulles de filtre" et le pluralisme de l'information est centrale.
      • Publicité Politique et Transparence : Les règles concernant la publicité politique varient selon les plateformes, avec un accent sur la transparence et la restriction des financements étrangers.
      • Modération et Lignes Directrices : La manière dont les plateformes modèrent le contenu, l'évolution de leurs règles et leur neutralité politique sont des sujets de discussion importants.

      Idées Clés et Faits Importants par Thème :

      1. Information des Électeurs et Engagement Civique :

      • Démarche Proactive : Les plateformes mettent en place des "boîtes d'information" et des bannières pour diriger les utilisateurs vers les sources officielles.
      • Google : "On a mis en place l'an dernier des boîtes information euh le contenu il était pas produit par Google mais évidemment par les autorités publiques... on a mis en place avec le SIG avec les ressources du ministère de l'intérieur notamment bah pareil une une boîte info en haut des résultats de recherche." Ils font la promotion de ces informations via bannières et notifications mobiles.
      • Meta : "Nous travaillons à trois niveaux une collaboration avec le service d'information du gouvernement pour aussi mettre en avant les sources officielles notamment sur le la question du rappel des dates limite d'inscription pour les listes électorales... et les dates de scrutin aussi." Ils envoient des notifications in-app et mènent des campagnes de sensibilisation (ex: avec l'AFP et Thomas Pesquet). Leurs notifications ont été cliquées plus d'un million de fois sur Facebook et Instagram lors des législatives.
      • Snapchat : Mène des campagnes d'information, notamment via des Lenses, filtres et BitMoji, pour indiquer aux utilisateurs comment voter, trouver leur bureau de vote, et comprendre les candidats/partis (en collaboration avec des partenaires médias).
      • X : Utilise des messages de rappel ("Community Notes") sur la tenue des élections envoyés environ une semaine avant le scrutin.
      • TikTok : A lancé un centre dédié aux élections européennes en 2024, consulté 1,8 million de fois, et sensibilise aux risques de désinformation via des vidéos (ex: avec l'AFP).
      • Faciliter l'Inscription : Certaines plateformes aident à la sensibilisation sur l'inscription sur les listes électorales.
      • Meta : Intègre le rappel des dates limites d'inscription dans leurs notifications, comme fait en 2022.
      • Snapchat : Indique aux utilisateurs qu'ils peuvent voter avec une carte d'identité et les aide à trouver leur bureau de vote.
      • Pédagogie : Les données montrent un besoin de pédagogie sur le processus électoral.
      • Google : Via Google Trends, ils ont constaté des questions fréquentes comme "y a combien de tours aux élections européennes" ou "quand a lieu le second tour".

      2. Lutte contre la Désinformation et les Fausses Informations :

      • Politiques Communautaires : Toutes les plateformes ont des règles strictes contre la désinformation.
      • Snapchat : Applique des règles strictes contre la désinformation, avec un temps médian de traitement des signalements de fausses informations de 2 minutes au second semestre 2024 (selon leur rapport de transparence DSA).
      • TikTok : Interdit la désinformation, notamment celle entraînant un préjudice important ou concernant les processus civiques et électoraux.
      • Partenariats avec des Vérificateurs de Faits (Fact-Checkers) : Certaines plateformes collaborent avec des organisations tierces indépendantes.
      • Meta : Travaille avec plusieurs fact-checkers indépendants pour vérifier les contenus. Ils notent que les vérificateurs de faits "ne peuvent pas tout faire" et doivent respecter leur indépendance. Le débat aux États-Unis sur l'évolution de cette approche est mentionné, mais pour l'instant, le dispositif reste en place en Europe.
      • Snapchat : Travaille avec des vérificateurs de faits indépendants comme Pointer.
      • X : Utilise un système communautaire appelé "Community Notes" pour apporter du contexte sous les publications potentiellement trompeuses. Ces notes doivent être jugées utiles et mises d'accord par des contributeurs ayant des points de vue divergents.
      • Approches Différentes : La manière de gérer la désinformation varie.
      • Google : N'utilise pas la logique de fact-checking pour le moteur de recherche ou YouTube (qui n'est pas un réseau social). Leur approche est d'organiser l'accès à une diversité d'informations de qualité en mettant en avant les sources faisant autorité (gouvernementales, médias). Ils utilisent des "classifiers" pour mettre en avant ces sources.
      • X : Distingue "désinformation" (manipulation, inauthenticité) et "information trompeuse" (misinformation). Pour la désinformation, ils luttent contre la manipulation de la plateforme et les identités trompeuses. Pour l'information trompeuse, ils misent sur les "Community Notes" pour apporter du contexte.
      • Modération et Moyens : La question des moyens alloués à la modération et de l'évolution des politiques est soulevée.
      • Meta : Affirme ne pas avoir réduit ses moyens de modération malgré des évolutions dans les règles de modération globales (qui concernent certains sujets sociétaux ou de politique d'immigration). Ils soulignent que "la loi prime sur les politiques de modération" et qu'un contenu illégal est retiré.

      3. Ingérences Étrangères et Menaces Coordonnées :

      • Reconnaissance du Risque : Les plateformes identifient les ingérences étrangères comme une menace sérieuse.
      • Président de la commission : "L'attention particulière à la question des ingérences qui me semble être une menace fondamentale sur notre démocratie".
      • Équipes Dédiées : Des équipes sont spécifiquement chargées de détecter et de contrer ces menaces.
      • Google : Mobilise deux équipes principales : le "SRE analysis group" (analyse les pratiques malveillantes) et Mandiant (sécurise les infrastructures). Ils surveillent ce qui se passe sur d'autres réseaux et plateformes pour identifier les menaces.
      • Meta : Lutte contre les "actions coordonnées inauthentiques" (réseaux de faux comptes créés par des puissances étrangères). Ils en ont démantelé 200 en quelques années et publient des rapports trimestriels. Ils sont en relation avec les autorités françaises. Ils mentionnent la Russie, l'Iran et la Chine comme origines fréquentes de ces opérations.
      • Snapchat : A une équipe dédiée au renseignement sur les menaces et travaille de manière continue.
      • X : A une équipe appelée "Swap Disruption" qui enquête de manière proactive sur la manipulation de la plateforme et les ingérences étrangères. Entre avril et octobre 2024, ils ont supprimé 16 millions de comptes en France liés à ces phénomènes. Ils connaissent bien le réseau "Dop Ganger".
      • TikTok : Interdit les ingérences étrangères selon ses règles communautaires. A intensifié ses réunions avec Viginum depuis janvier pour anticiper les élections de 2027.
      • Collaboration avec les Autorités : Le dialogue et le partage d'informations avec des entités comme Viginum sont jugés essentiels.
      • Google : Souligne l'importance de "structurer des échanges entre nous Viginum les autorités françaises".
      • X : Met en avant l'importance de la collaboration avec Viginum, qu'ils considèrent comme un "cas un peu particulier au niveau de l'Union européenne" et "tout à fait salutaire".
      • TikTok : Coopère pleinement avec la Commission européenne sur l'enquête concernant les événements en Roumanie et échange avec Viginum.
      • Snapchat : A établi un lien avec l'ARCOM et s'est mis à disposition de Viginum pendant les élections.
      • Adaptation : Les acteurs malveillants sont sophistiqués et s'adaptent, nécessitant une vigilance constante.
      • X : "Très honnêtement pour vous répondre c'est aussi un peu un jeu de che de la souris parce qu'en fait forcément nous plus on sait lutter contre eux et plus eux ils deviennent plus créatifs et ils s'améliorent et donc on a forcément toujours un petit temps de retard par rapport à eux".
      • Lien avec la Vie Réelle : Certaines opérations combinent actions en ligne et dans le monde réel (ex: pochoirs à Paris amplifiés sur les réseaux).
      • Le Cas de la Roumanie (TikTok) : L'annulation d'une élection suite à une possible manipulation sur TikTok en Roumanie est un sujet de vive préoccupation.
      • Président de la commission : Souligne que "c'est quand même en raison d'une opération d'envergure qui a été menée sur votre réseau que le premier tour de l'élection avait été annulé". La question est posée de savoir si un tel événement peut advenir en France et comment l'éviter, étant donné que le cadre réglementaire européen est le même. TikTok ne peut donner de précisions sur l'enquête en cours mais assure coopérer avec la Commission et travailler avec Viginum pour éviter que cela ne se reproduise en France.
      • Les Médias comme Point de Résilience : La diversité et la force des médias traditionnels en France sont considérées comme un rempart face à la désinformation organisée.
      • Google : "On a une chance en France... on a un point de résilience en fait en France par rapport à ces campagnes notamment de de désinformation et de organisé par les États étrangers ce sont nos médias et notamment la diversité des médias". Ils soulignent l'importance de soutenir l'information diverse et le financement des médias.

      4. Rôle des Algorithmes :

      • Influence Potentielle : Les algorithmes peuvent influencer la diffusion des contenus et potentiellement les choix électoraux.
      • Rapporteur : Évoque "une forme de survalorisation de certains contenus", "des failles algorithmiques qui sont utilisées" et les "bulles de filtre".
      • Transparence : Les plateformes s'engagent à être transparentes sur le fonctionnement de leurs algorithmes.
      • Meta : Souligne la transparence vis-à-vis du régulateur et publie des informations en ligne expliquant comment fonctionnent leurs algorithmes.
      • Snapchat : A une approche transparente avec un lien public expliquant en détail le fonctionnement de leur algorithme.
      • X : Explique comment fonctionnent ses systèmes de recommandation sur son site et a publié un article de blog technique. L'algorithme est en open source pour les "Community Notes".
      • TikTok : A une page d'aide expliquant le fonctionnement de son algorithme "Pour toi".
      • Contrôle Utilisateur : Des outils sont disponibles pour permettre aux utilisateurs d'influencer leur expérience algorithmique.
      • Meta : Les utilisateurs peuvent dire s'ils préfèrent voir "plus ou moins" d'un certain type de contenu. Sur Instagram, il est possible d'opter pour un fil purement chronologique.
      • Snapchat : Les utilisateurs peuvent désactiver la personnalisation des recommandations dans leurs paramètres.
      • X : Propose une timeline anti-chronologique, permet de marquer du contenu comme "non intéressé", de filtrer/bloquer des comptes.
      • TikTok : Permet de réinitialiser le fil "Pour toi" ou de désactiver la personnalisation pour ne voir que des vidéos populaires de la région.
      • Diversité de Contenu : Les plateformes affirment viser à présenter une diversité de contenu.
      • Google : Affirme ne plus être basé sur la seule notoriété et utiliser de nombreux signaux pour augmenter la diversité. Ils soulignent que la diversité des idées en ligne dépend aussi du contenu disponible.
      • Snapchat : Vise à "garder des recommandations qui sont assez larges" et à "ouvrir la communauté à des sujets variés" pour éviter l'enfermement algorithmique. Ils insèrent des contenus qui n'ont rien à voir avec les intérêts habituels de l'utilisateur.
      • TikTok : Utilise des signaux basés sur l'interaction mais aussi sur la nature du contenu pour offrir une expérience variée.
      • "Bulles de Filtre" : La notion de "bulles de filtre" est discutée.
      • Meta : Mentionne les travaux d'un sociologue (Dominique Cardon) qui considère qu'il n'y a pas de "bulles de filtre" et que les réseaux sociaux reflètent plutôt l'homophilie sociale déjà existante dans la société. Ils estiment que l'exposition à des opinions diverses sur les réseaux sociaux n'est pas inférieure à celle dans d'autres sphères sociales.
      • Snapchat : Souligne que son architecture (communication privée) ne se prête pas naturellement aux débats publics et à la diffusion massive.
      • Neutralité Politique : Les plateformes affirment ne pas avoir d'agenda politique et ne pas privilégier certaines idées politiques.
      • Google : "Nous en ce qui nous concerne c'est non on fait pas de choix politique c'est clair et affiché".
      • Meta : "Il y a pas d'algorithme qui va préférer des idées de gauche ou de droite". Ils expliquent que l'algorithme se base sur l'interaction et l'intérêt de l'utilisateur, pas sur le fond politique du contenu.
      • Snapchat : Affirme adopter une approche objective en matière de partenariat médias, sans porter de jugement sur les orientations politiques.
      • TikTok : Affirme que la plateforme "ne fait pas de choix politique partisan dans la présentation des contenus dès lors que ces contenus respectent nos règles communautaires et le droit local applicable".
      • Évolution Récemment Observée (Meta) : Il y a eu un changement dans la diffusion du contenu politique sur Meta.
      • Rapporteur : Constat empirique d'une "baisse de la diffusion des contenus" politiques puis un "gros changement" récent où la diffusion est "extrêmement large".
      • Meta : Confirme que "il y a quelques mois les contenus politiques étaient moins diffusés" et que "depuis le début d'année... le contenu politique est traité comme tout autre contenu". Ce n'est pas un changement de modération mais de "diffusion de ces contenus là".

      5. Publicité Politique et Transparence :

      • Restrictions : Des règles limitent qui peut diffuser de la publicité politique.
      • Meta : Pour diffuser de la publicité politique ou sur des enjeux sociaux en France, la personne doit vérifier son identité et être basée en France. Cela vise à limiter les tentatives d'ingérence.
      • Snapchat : La publicité politique est vérifiée manuellement et en amont par des modérateurs et experts indépendants. Interdit toute publicité politique financée par des entités basées en dehors de l'UE pour être diffusée en France.
      • TikTok : La publicité politique est interdite en tout temps. Les comptes politiques labellisés n'ont pas accès aux fonctions de monétisation.
      • X : Démonétise la désinformation, c'est-à-dire que si une publicité reçoit une "Community Note", elle perd son statut de publicité et n'est plus promue.
      • Bibliothèques de Publicités : Des outils permettent de consulter les publicités politiques.
      • Meta : Dispose d'une bibliothèque publicitaire où sont archivées pendant 7 ans les publicités labellisées.
      • Conformité Réglementaire : Les plateformes s'adaptent aux régulations européennes (ex: sur la publicité politique).
      • Snapchat : A élargi le scope de résidence de l'émetteur à l'ensemble de l'UE suite au règlement européen de 2024.

      6. Modération et Lignes Directrices :

      • Évolution des Règles : Les règles communautaires peuvent évoluer.
      • TikTok : A fait évoluer ses règles en 2023 pour inclure la lutte contre la désinformation sur le consensus scientifique concernant le changement climatique.
      • Snapchat : A fait évoluer ses règles pour inclure l'IA générative. L'évolution se base sur les événements en France/autres pays et les évolutions technologiques.
      • Meta : Mentionne des "évolutions des règles de modération" qui concernent notamment certains sujets sociétaux (genre, immigration), en écho aux débats politiques américains. Ils affirment que cela ne change pas les moyens de modération et que la loi locale prime toujours. La question de savoir si cette évolution est "orientée politiquement" et son impact sur le débat national est posée. Meta insiste sur la liberté d'expression dans les limites de la loi et des règles de protection des personnes.
      • Transparence sur les Règles : Les plateformes rendent publiques leurs politiques.
      • Meta : Affirme que l'évolution des règles est "en ligne elle est claire elle est transparente".
      • Application Uniforme : Les règles s'appliquent à tous les utilisateurs, qu'ils soient célèbres ou non.
      • Snapchat : "Ces règles de modération vont s'appliquer à l'ensemble des utilisateurs qui soient certifiés ou non qui soi de d'une notoriété exceptionnelle ou non".
      • X : "Les règles elles s'appliquent de toute façon de façon horizontale" y compris au propriétaire du réseau.

      Citations Clés :

      • "La question des réseaux sociaux et des plateformes est apparue au fur et à mesure... au titre... de notre vigilance collective sur les les risques d'ingérence étrangère au moment des des élections dans notre pays." (Président de la commission)
      • "La mission la mission en fait hein principale de Google c'est celle d'organiser l'accès à l'information et effectivement euh lorsqu'on parle des élections c'est quelque chose qui euh qui reste qui reste critique." (Google)
      • "De part notre architecture déjà Snapchat ne se prête pas naturellement euh aux discussions aux débats euh et au contenu politique puisque nous ne permettons pas euh de fil public ouvert de diffusion en direct." (Snapchat)
      • "Nous n'avons pas réduit nos moyens de modération sur notre plateforme ce n'est pas ce que j'ai dit ce n'est pas ce que je dirais nous avons fait évoluer des règles de modération pas les moyens de modération." (Meta)
      • "Toute utilisation par un acteur étranger organisation ou individu de technique numérique majoritairement inauthentique pour s'ingérer dans un débat public numérique nié à une élection... caractérise une ingérence numérique étrangère." (Citation de Viginum par le rapporteur)
      • "La question qu'on doit se poser c'est que un événement comparable [à la Roumanie] euh peut-il advenir en France ?" (Président de la commission)
      • "Ces pratiques aujourd'hui d'ingérence étrangère de structuration véritablement de campagne hybride... ce sont des choses qu'on observe et nous notre objectif c'est que ça n'arrive pas sur nos plateformes." (Google)
      • "Nous luttons contre des ce qu'on appelle des actions coordonnées inauthentiques en fait ce sont des réseaux qui sont créés par des puissances étrangères de faux comptes visant à amener de la désinformation." (Meta)
      • "Par l'architecture de notre plateforme on se prête pas euh directement à favoriser les fils d'actualité ouvert... ni de diffusion virale de contenu ni de direct." (Snapchat)
      • "Ce type d'acteur maveillant est très bon en fait à jouer en fait sur les vulné des sociétés et à jouer sur les divisions qu'on peut avoir." (X)
      • "Comment nous garantir que vos propres algorithmes ne sont pas biaisés politiquement que votre politique de modération n'est pas biaisée politiquement ? Sont pas des instruments au service je dirais d'objectifs politiques qui viennent pour le coup directement impacter la bonne tenue des élections." (Président de la commission)
      • "Je pense qu'en réalité on pourra avoir le débat aussi avec avec d'autres plateformes et d'ailleurs on va on va continuer le tour de de table mais c'est intéressant parce que ça permet de rentrer dans la technique et en particulier ça vient sur des questions qu'on a déjà eu notamment avec l'ARCOM l'arcom nous a dit 'Ah bah il y a un sujet qui est posé sur les réseaux sociaux sur notre capacité de contrôle parce que nous on est là pour euh contrôler ceux qui font du contenu éditorial et précisément tout l'enjeu qui est posé sur les plateformes de réseaux sociaux c'est que vous êtes à la fois des plateformes qui permettent une expression que si vous intervenez sur le contenu bah d'une certaine manière vous éditorialisez'." (Rapporteur)
      • "L'utilisateur effectivement il y a l'algorithme qui le place en fait dans des contenus qui l'intéressent mais en fait ce qu'on essaie nous de mettre en place en fait c'est un choix pour cet utilisateur." (X)
      • "On adopte une approche qui est assez objective on va jamais porter justement de jugement liés à des prispositions politiques spécifiques... ce qui nous concerne sincèrement c'est enfin que ces derniers aient une éthique journalistique qui ne présente pas de désinformation." (Snapchat)
      • "L'idée c'est que tout le monde puisse s'exprimer sur la plateforme... il y a pas d'algorithme qui va préférer des idées de gauche ou de droite." (Meta)
      • "Les contenus politiques sont autorisés sur la plateforme sans usage on le mentionnait précédemment de nos de nos outils publicitaires et de et de monétisation." (TikTok)

      Points d'Attention pour la Commission d'Enquête :

      • Transposition de la Roumanie : Le cas de l'élection annulée en Roumanie sur fond de manipulation sur TikTok est une préoccupation majeure. La commission souhaite comprendre les mécanismes précis utilisés pour évaluer le risque pour les élections françaises et d'éventuels besoins législatifs.
      • Lien entre Règles de Modération et Débat Politique : Clarifier comment les évolutions des politiques de modération, notamment chez Meta sur des sujets sociétaux, peuvent impacter le débat politique en France et si elles reflètent ou non une "ligne éditoriale" ou une "orientation politique" de la plateforme.
      • Impact des Algorithmes sur le Pluralisme : Examiner les méthodes concrètes utilisées par les plateformes pour lutter contre les "bulles de filtre" et assurer une exposition minimale à des opinions diverses, au-delà des options de contrôle utilisateur.
      • Rôle des Médias : La discussion a souligné l'importance des médias traditionnels comme rempart, mais aussi la dépendance des médias aux plateformes numériques pour la diffusion et la question de leur financement (droit voisin).
      • Désinformation via les Influenceurs : La question de savoir comment les plateformes s'assurent que les influenceurs ne sont pas payés pour diffuser du contenu politique, contournant ainsi la loi électorale sur la publicité, a été soulevée.
    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper focuses on understanding how covalent inhibitors of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma (PPARg) show improved inverse agonist activities. This work is important because PPARg plays essential roles in metabolic regulation, insulin sensitization, and adipogenesis. Like other nuclear receptors, PPARg, is a ligand-responsive transcriptional regulator. Its important role, coupled with its ligand-sensitive transcriptional activities, makes it an attractive therapeutic target for diabetes, inflammation, fibrosis, and cancer. Traditional non-covalent ligands like thiazolininediones (TZDs) show clinical benefit in metabolic diseases, but utility is limited by off-target effects and transient receptor engagement. In previous studies, the authors characterized and developed covalent PPARg inhibitors with improved inverse agonist activities. They also showed that these molecules engage unique PPARg ligand binding domain (LBD) conformations whereby the c-terminal helix 12 penetrates into the orthosteric binding pocket to stabilize a repressive state. In the nuclear receptor superclass of proteins, helix 12 is an allosteric switch that governs pharmacologic responses, and this new conformation was highly novel. In this study, the authors did a more thorough analysis of how two covalent inhibitors, SR33065 and SR36708 influence the structural dynamics of PPARg LBD.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors employed a compelling integrated biochemical and biophysical approach.

      (2) The cobinding studies are unique for the field of nuclear receptor structural biology, and I'm not aware of any similar structural mechanism described for this class of proteins.

      (3) Overall, the results support their conclusions.

      (4) The results open up exciting possibilities for the development of new ligands that exploit the potential bidirectional relationship between the covalent versus non-covalent ligands studied here.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The major weakness in this work is that it is hard to appreciate what these shifting allosteric ensembles actually look like on the protein structure. Additional graphical representations would really help convey the exciting results of this study.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary: In this paper, the authors perform a screen by feeding C. elegans different E. coli genetic mutants and examining the effect on the expression of fat-7, a stearoyl-CoA 9-desturase, which has been associated with longevity. They identify 26 E. coli strains that decrease fat-7 expression, all of which slow development and increase lifespan. RNA sequencing of worms treated with 4 of these strains identified genes involved in defense against oxidative stress among those genes that are commonly upregulated. Feeding C. elegans these 4 bacterial strains results in increased ROS and activation of the mitochondrial unfolded protein response, which appears to contribute to lifespan extension as these bacterial strains do not increase lifespan when the mitochondrial unfolded protein response transcription factor ATFS-1 is disrupted. Finally, the authors demonstrate a role for iron levels in mediating these phenotypes: iron supplementation inhibits the phenotypes caused by the identified bacterial strains, while iron chelation mimics these phenotypes. Response: We thank the reviewer for an excellent summary of our work.

      Major comments: The proposed model involves an increase in ROS levels activating the UPRmt and then leading to lifespan extension. If the elevation is ROS levels is contributing then treatment with antioxidants should prevent UPRmt activation and lifespan extension. Response: This is an excellent point. We will treat the FAT-7-suppressing diets with antioxidants and observe the effect on C. elegans UPRmt activation and lifespan.

      The authors suggest that iron depletion may disrupt iron-sulfur cluster proteins. The Rieske iron-sulfur protein ISP-1 from mitochondrial electron transport chain complex III has previously been associated with lifespan. Point mutations affecting the function of ISP-1 or RNAi decreasing the levels of ISP-1 both result in increased lifespan (PMID 20346072, 11709184). Thus, iron depletion may be increasing ROS, activating UPRmt and increasing lifespan through decreasing ISP-1 levels.

      Response: The reviewer has raised an intriguing possibility that the increased lifespan on the FAT-7-suppressing diets could be because of perturbation of ISP-1 function. While ISP-1 levels may not be directly affected by the mutant diets, ISP-1 function might be perturbed on these diets as ISP-1 function requires iron-sulfur clusters. Therefore, we will study the lifespan of isp-1(qm150) mutant on the FAT-7-suppressing diets to explore whether the lifespan extension on these diets is ISP-1 dependent.

      All of the Kaplan-meier survival plots are missing statistical analyses. Please add p-values.

      Response: The p-values for all the survival plots are included in the respective figure legends.

      It would be helpful to include a model diagram of the proposed mechanisms in the main figures.

      Response: We will make a model diagram after completing the experiments suggested by the reviewers.

      Minor comments: Rather than "mutant diets" it would be more informative to call these "FAT-7-decreasing diets"

      Response: We have changed “mutant diets” to “FAT-7-suppressing diets” throughout the manuscript.

      Is it surprising that none of the bacterial strains increased FAT-7 levels? Why do you think this is?

      Response: Yes, it was indeed surprising to find only bacterial strains that reduced FAT-7 levels and none that increased them. One possible explanation is that these bacterial mutants may not directly regulate fat-7 expression. Instead, they might alter the overall dietary composition, which is known to influence fat-7 levels. It appears that none of the tested mutants modified the diet in a manner that would lead to fat-7 upregulation.

      Page 5. "We hypothesized that diets reducing FAT-7 might elevate oleic acid levels". Since FAT-7 converts stearic acid to oleic acid, wouldn't deceasing FAT-7 levels decrease oleic acid levels and increase stearic acid levels?

      Response: FAT-7 expression is regulated by a feedback mechanism and is sensitive to the fatty acid composition within host cells; elevated levels of unsaturated fatty acids, such as oleic acid, suppress FAT-7 expression. There are two possible ways bacterial mutants could lead to reduced FAT-7 levels: (1) by directly inhibiting FAT-7 expression, which would be expected to result in increased stearic acid levels; or (2) by supplying higher amounts of oleic acid through their composition, thereby suppressing FAT-7 expression via feedback regulation. We focused on the second possibility, as elevated oleic acid levels—like those seen with FAT-7-suppressing diets—are known to promote C. elegans lifespan. To avoid confusion, we have revised the statement to: “We hypothesized that bacterial diets might reduce FAT-7 expression because they have elevated levels of oleic acid”.

      Page 6. The authors cite Bennett et al. 2014 for the statement that "Activation of the UPRmt has been associated with lifespan extension". This paper reaches the opposite conclusion "Activation of the mitochondrial unfolded protein response does not predict longevity in Caenorhabditis elegans". Also, in the Bennett paper and PMID 34585931, it is shown that constitutive activation of ATFS-1 decreases lifespan. Thus, the relationship between the UPRmt and lifespan is not straightforward. These points should be mentioned.

      Response: The reviewer has raised an important point. We have now included a paragraph in the discussion to highlight these points. The revised manuscript reads: “All 26 FAT-7-suppressing diets identified in our study elevated hsp-6p::GFP expression and extended C. elegans lifespan. Although UPRmt activation and lifespan extension were consistently observed across these diets, there was no strong correlation between hsp-6p::GFP levels and the degree of lifespan extension. The role of the UPRmt in promoting longevity remains controversial (Bennett et al., 2014; Soo et al., 2021; Wu et al., 2018). For instance, gain-of-function mutations in atfs-1 have been shown to reduce lifespan (Bennett et al., 2014; Soo et al., 2021). However, a recent study demonstrated that mild UPRmt activation can extend lifespan, whereas strong activation has the opposite effect (Di Pede et al., 2025). These findings suggest that UPRmt contributes to longevity only under specific conditions and at specific activation levels. In our study, lifespan extension on FAT-7-suppressing diets was dependent on ATFS-1, indicating that UPRmt activation was necessary for this effect.

      Page 6. "Our transcriptomic analysis suggested elevated ROS". Rather than refer to gene expression, it would be better to refer to the ROS measurements that were performed.

      Response: We have changed it to the following sentence: “Our ROS measurement analysis suggested elevated ROS levels in worms fed FAT-7-suppressing diets.

      The long-lived mitochondrial mutants isp-1 and nuo-6 have increased ROS, UPRmt activation and increased lifespan. Multiple studies have examined gene expression in these long-lived mutant strains. How does gene expression in these mutants compare to worms treated with the FAT-7-decreasing E. coli mutants? While not necessary for this publication, it would be interesting to see whether the FAT-7-decreasing E. coli strains can increase isp-1 and nuo-6 lifespan.

      Response: We will compare the gene expression changes observed in isp-1 and nuo-6 mutants with the gene expression changes observed in worms exposed to FAT-7-suppressing diets. Additionally, we will examine the lifespan of isp-1 mutants on the mutant diets. These data will be included in the revised manuscript.

      SEK-1 is also involved in the p38-mediated innate immune signaling pathway, which has been shown to contribute to longevity in C. elegans. In fact, disruption of sek-1 using RNAi decreased the lifespan of several long-lived mutant strains PMID 36514863.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for highlighting this point. We have now added that the role of SEK-1 in regulating lifespan on FAT-7-suppressing diets could also be because of its role in innate immunity. The revised manuscript reads: “Notably, SEK-1 also regulates innate immunity and is essential for the extended lifespan observed in several long-lived C. elegans mutants (Soo et al., 2023). Therefore, its effect on lifespan in response to FAT-7-suppressing diets may also stem from its role in innate immune regulation.

      Figure 2. Why were cyoA and ycbk chosen to show the full Kaplan-meier survival plot?

      Response: These were selected randomly to show the range of the lifespan phenotype observed.

      Figure 2, panel D. A better title may be "Mean Survival (Percent increase from control)"

      Response: We have made this change.

      While not necessary for this paper, it would be interesting to determine whether the FAT-7-decreasing E. coli strains alter resistance to oxidative stress.

      Response: We will study the survival of worms on these diets upon supplementation with paraquat.

      Figure 4. It may be interesting to include a correlation plot comparing hsp-6::GFP fluorescence and lifespan. It looks like the magnitudes of increase for each phenotype are not correlated.

      Response: We have added a new Figure (Figure S4) to show the correlation between hsp-6::GFP fluorescence levels and percent change in mean lifespan. Indeed, there is no correlation between these phenotypes.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      Overall, this is an interesting paper and the experiments are rigorously performed. The bacterial screen was comprehensive and was followed up by careful mechanistic experiments. This paper will be of interest to researchers studying the biology of aging. A diagram of the working model of the underlying mechanisms would enhance the paper. Response: We thank the reviewer for highlighting the significance of the study. We will include a model in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      In this manuscript, Das et al. investigate how different bacterial mutants affect the lifespan of C. elegans. The authors screened a library of E. coli mutants using a fat-7 reporter and identified 26 strains that reduce fat-7 expression, cause developmental delay, induce the mitochondrial unfolded protein response (using hsp-6 reporter), and increase worm lifespan. Among these, they focused on four strains and demonstrated that the effects of these mutants on developmental delay, fat-7 expression, and hsp-6 induction could be suppressed by iron supplementation. Furthermore, they showed that iron depletion alone is sufficient to induce fat-7 expression in worms. The lifespan extension observed in worms fed these mutant bacterial strains depends on SKN-1, SEK-1, and HLH-30. Overall, this is a well-written manuscript that highlights the role of iron in regulating fat-7 expression. However, the findings from the initial screen do not significantly expand upon what is already known in the literature. Many of the identified hits overlap with those reported by Zhang et al. (2019), which also highlighted the role of iron in developmental delay and hsp-6 induction. While the lifespan data and the role of fat-7 are novel aspects of this study, the authors have not conducted detailed mechanistic investigations to address key questions, such as: 1) How does the deletion of these bacterial genes alter the metabolic state of the diet? 2) How do these metabolic changes influence fat-7 expression in worms? 3) How does the downregulation of fat-7 contribute to longevity? Addressing these points would strengthen the mechanistic insights of the study.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for a thoughtful summary of our work and for the valuable feedback provided to improve the manuscript. We would like to emphasize that the screening conditions and objectives of our study were fundamentally different from those of Zhang et al. (2019). Furthermore, Zhang et al. (2019) did not investigate the effects of the bacterial mutants identified in their screens on C. elegans lifespan. Notably, the 26 bacterial mutants identified in our screen do not overlap with those reported in previous studies that examined bacterial strains promoting C. elegans longevity. As detailed below, we will address the points raised by the reviewer that will certainly strengthen the mechanistic insights of the study.

      Here are my detailed comments: 1. Suppressing FAT-7 levels in C. elegans does not inherently increase lifespan. To directly attribute this effect to FAT-7, it would be important to attempt a rescue experiment to restore FAT-7 expression and assess whether the lifespan extension persists. Additionally, measuring oleic acid levels in these mutants would help determine whether a high-oleic-acid diet is suppressing FAT-7 expression. The role of oleic acid cannot be ruled out using fat-2 mutants (Fig. 3B), as fat-2 mutants accumulate oleic acid when fed WT bacteria, but this may not translate to endogenous oleic acid accumulation in conditions where FAT-7 is suppressed.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for these useful suggestions. We will overexpress FAT-7 under a pan-tissue promoter (eft-3) and study lifespan on FAT-7-suppressing diets. Moreover, to explore whether oleic acid has any role in enhancing lifespan on FAT-7-suppressing diets, we will study the lifespan of worms on these diets upon supplementing with oleic acid along with wild-type bacterium control.

      To understand the host-microbe interaction in this study, it is important to determine what specific changes in the bacteria contribute to the observed phenotypes in worms. Identifying these bacterial factors will provide a clearer picture of their role in influencing worms stress signaling and lifespan.

      Response: The phenotypes observed in C. elegans across all the identified bacterial mutants are remarkably consistent, including increased UPRmt activation, reduced FAT-7 levels, delayed development, and extended lifespan. This consistency suggests that a common underlying factor is driving these effects. Although the bacterial mutants appear genetically diverse, gene expression data from C. elegans, along with comparisons to the findings of Zhang et al. (2019), indicate that elevated levels of reactive oxygen species (ROS) may represent this shared factor. These results suggest that bacterial ROS play a central role in mediating the host-microbe interactions underlying the observed phenotypes. To further support this hypothesis, we will directly measure ROS levels in the identified bacterial mutants. Additionally, we will test whether antioxidant treatment can suppress the C. elegans phenotypes, thereby establishing a causal role for bacterial ROS.

      It is important to rule out any changes in food consumption in worms fed these bacterial mutants, as differences in feeding amount could attribute to the observed lifespan effects.

      Response: We will carry out pharyngeal pumping rate measurements to study whether there is any difference in food consumption in worms fed these bacterial mutants.

      In figure 5A to 5G, please include the same-day controls to help clarify how iron supplementation effects these phenotypes relative to the control. For example, in Fig. 5F, it appears that iron extends the lifespan of worms fed the control diet. It would be clearer if appropriate controls were included in all of these figures or summarized in a table to help understand the impact of iron.

      Response: We will include these controls in the revised manuscript.

      How does iron depletion affect the levels of fat-7, and how does this contribute to the activation of the longevity pathways discussed in the manuscript.

      Response: This is an intriguing question. There are at least two possible explanations: (1) oxidative stress may directly downregulate fat-7 expression, and (2) iron depletion could reduce ferroptosis, which in turn may influence fatty acid metabolism. In the revised manuscript, we will include data on how oxidative stress affects FAT-7 expression.

      Minor comments 1. Please include a detailed table of the lifespan data for all replicates as a supplementary table.

      Response: We have included the details of survival curves for all the data in the new Table S2.

      In the Methods section, specify at what stage the worms were exposed to iron and the iron chelator for the lifespan experiments.

      Response: The L1-synchronized worms were exposed to iron and iron chelator plates and allowed to develop till the late L4 stage before being transferred to lifespan assay plates that also contained the respective supplements. This information is now included in the Methods section.

      Please clarify whether equal optical density (O.D.) of cells was seeded for both the WT and mutant strains, and mention if the mutants exhibit any growth defects.

      Response: We have examined the growth of the bacterial mutants and found that they do not exhibit growth defects. Therefore, for all the assays, NGM plates were seeded with saturated cultures of all the bacterial strains. We have now included the growth curves data in the manuscript (Figure S4).

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      Significance General Assessment: This study by Das et al. explores the impact of bacterial mutants on C. elegans lifespan. A key strength of the study is the identification of bacterial mutants that influence the expression of the gene encoding fatty acid desaturase (fat-7) and lifespan in C. elegans. Furthermore, the study highlights the role of iron in regulating fat-7 expression, suggesting that iron imbalance may play a crucial role in modulating fatty acid metabolism. However, the study's main limitation is that it does not significantly extend the current understanding of the microbial modulation of host metabolism and aging, as many of the identified bacterial hits overlap with those previously reported in Zhang et al. (2019). The manuscript would benefit from more in-depth mechanistic exploration, especially with regard to how specific bacterial factors influence the metabolic state of the worms and how these changes ultimately modulate fat-7 expression and longevity.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for highlighting the significance of our study. Once again, we would like to emphasize that the screening conditions and objectives of our study differed fundamentally from those of Zhang et al. (2019). Furthermore, Zhang et al. did not investigate the impact of the bacterial mutants identified in their screen on C. elegans lifespan. As outlined above, we will address the reviewer’s comments, which will undoubtedly strengthen the mechanistic insights of our study.

      Advance: This study presents a conceptual advance by exploring the iron-dependent regulation of fat-7 expression and lifespan in C. elegans, linking bacterial mutations with key longevity pathways (SKN-1, SEK-1, and HLH-30). The novelty lies in the direct investigation of the bacterial-induced changes in fat-7 expression, though the role of iron in these mutants for development and induction of mito-UPR was previously shown in the literature. This study also adds to the growing body of work on C. elegans as a model for studying aging and host-microbe interactions, particularly in understanding how diet and microbial exposure affect metabolic processes and lifespan.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for highlighting the advancement made by our study.

      Audience: This research will primarily interest specialized audiences in aging research, microbiology, and metabolism, especially those focused on host-microbe interactions. Keywords of my expertise: Host-microbe interactions, metabolism, system biology, C. elegans, aging.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      In this manuscript, Das et al. investigate how different bacterial mutants affect the lifespan of C. elegans. The authors screened a library of E. coli mutants using a fat-7 reporter and identified 26 strains that reduce fat-7 expression, cause developmental delay, induce the mitochondrial unfolded protein response (using hsp-6 reporter), and increase worm lifespan. Among these, they focused on four strains and demonstrated that the effects of these mutants on developmental delay, fat-7 expression, and hsp-6 induction could be suppressed by iron supplementation. Furthermore, they showed that iron depletion alone is sufficient to induce fat-7 expression in worms. The lifespan extension observed in worms fed these mutant bacterial strains depends on SKN-1, SEK-1, and HLH-30.

      Overall, this is a well-written manuscript that highlights the role of iron in regulating fat-7 expression. However, the findings from the initial screen do not significantly expand upon what is already known in the literature. Many of the identified hits overlap with those reported by Zhang et al. (2019), which also highlighted the role of iron in developmental delay and hsp-6 induction. While the lifespan data and the role of fat-7 are novel aspects of this study, the authors have not conducted detailed mechanistic investigations to address key questions, such as: 1) How does the deletion of these bacterial genes alter the metabolic state of the diet? 2) How do these metabolic changes influence fat-7 expression in worms? 3) How does the downregulation of fat-7 contribute to longevity? Addressing these points would strengthen the mechanistic insights of the study.

      Here are my detailed comments:

      1. Suppressing FAT-7 levels in C. elegans does not inherently increase lifespan. To directly attribute this effect to FAT-7, it would be important to attempt a rescue experiment to restore FAT-7 expression and assess whether the lifespan extension persists. Additionally, measuring oleic acid levels in these mutants would help determine whether a high-oleic-acid diet is suppressing FAT-7 expression. The role of oleic acid cannot be ruled out using fat-2 mutants (Fig. 3B), as fat-2 mutants accumulate oleic acid when fed WT bacteria, but this may not translate to endogenous oleic acid accumulation in conditions where FAT-7 is suppressed.
      2. To understand the host-microbe interaction in this study, it is important to determine what specific changes in the bacteria contribute to the observed phenotypes in worms. Identifying these bacterial factors will provide a clearer picture of their role in influencing worms stress signaling and lifespan.
      3. It is important to rule out any changes in food consumption in worms fed these bacterial mutants, as differences in feeding amount could attribute to the observed lifespan effects.
      4. In figure 5A to 5G, please include the same-day controls to help clarify how iron supplementation effects these phenotypes relative to the control. For example, in Fig. 5F, it appears that iron extends the lifespan of worms fed the control diet. It would be clearer if appropriate controls were included in all of these figures or summarized in a table to help understand the impact of iron.
      5. How does iron depletion affect the levels of fat-7, and how does this contribute to the activation of the longevity pathways discussed in the manuscript.

      Minor comments

      1. Please include a detailed table of the lifespan data for all replicates as a supplementary table.
      2. In the Methods section, specify at what stage the worms were exposed to iron and the iron chelator for the lifespan experiments.
      3. Please clarify whether equal optical density (O.D.) of cells was seeded for both the WT and mutant strains, and mention if the mutants exhibit any growth defects.

      Significance

      General Assessment: This study by Das et al. explores the impact of bacterial mutants on C. elegans lifespan. A key strength of the study is the identification of bacterial mutants that influence the expression of the gene encoding fatty acid desaturase (fat-7) and lifespan in C. elegans. Furthermore, the study highlights the role of iron in regulating fat-7 expression, suggesting that iron imbalance may play a crucial role in modulating fatty acid metabolism. However, the study's main limitation is that it does not significantly extend the current understanding of the microbial modulation of host metabolism and aging, as many of the identified bacterial hits overlap with those previously reported in Zhang et al. (2019). The manuscript would benefit from more in-depth mechanistic exploration, especially with regard to how specific bacterial factors influence the metabolic state of the worms and how these changes ultimately modulate fat-7 expression and longevity.

      Advance: This study presents a conceptual advance by exploring the iron-dependent regulation of fat-7 expression and lifespan in C. elegans, linking bacterial mutations with key longevity pathways (SKN-1, SEK-1, and HLH-30). The novelty lies in the direct investigation of the bacterial-induced changes in fat-7 expression, though the role of iron in these mutants for development and induction of mito-UPR was previously shown in the literature. This study also adds to the growing body of work on C. elegans as a model for studying aging and host-microbe interactions, particularly in understanding how diet and microbial exposure affect metabolic processes and lifespan.

      Audience: This research will primarily interest specialized audiences in aging research, microbiology, and metabolism, especially those focused on host-microbe interactions.

      Keywords of my expertise: Host-microbe interactions, metabolism, system biology, C. elegans, aging.

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors perform a screen by feeding C. elegans different E. coli genetic mutants and examining the effect on the expression of fat-7, a stearoyl-CoA 9-desturase, which has been associated with longevity. They identify 26 E. coli strains that decrease fat-7 expression, all of which slow development and increase lifespan. RNA sequencing of worms treated with 4 of these strains identified genes involved in defense against oxidative stress among those genes that are commonly upregulated. Feeding C. elegans these 4 bacterial strains results in increased ROS and activation of the mitochondrial unfolded protein response, which appears to contribute to lifespan extension as these bacterial strains do not increase lifespan when the mitochondrial unfolded protein response transcription factor ATFS-1 is disrupted. Finally, the authors demonstrate a role for iron levels in mediating these phenotypes: iron supplementation inhibits the phenotypes caused by the identified bacterial strains, while iron chelation mimics these phenotypes.

      Major comments:

      The proposed model involves an increase in ROS levels activating the UPRmt and then leading to lifespan extension. If the elevation is ROS levels is contributing then treatment with antioxidants should prevent UPRmt activation and lifespan extension.

      The authors suggest that iron depletion may disrupt iron-sulfur cluster proteins. The Rieske iron-sulfur protein ISP-1 from mitochondrial electron transport chain complex III has previously been associated with lifespan. Point mutations affecting the function of ISP-1 or RNAi decreasing the levels of ISP-1 both result in increased lifespan (PMID 20346072, 11709184). Thus, iron depletion may be increasing ROS, activating UPRmt and increasing lifespan through decreasing ISP-1 levels.

      All of the Kaplan-meier survival plots are missing statistical analyses. Please add p-values.

      It would be helpful to include a model diagram of the proposed mechanisms in the main figures.

      Minor comments:

      Rather than "mutant diets" it would be more informative to call these "FAT-7-decreasing diets"

      Is it surprising that none of the bacterial strains increased FAT-7 levels? Why do you think this is?

      Page 5. "We hypothesized that diets reducing FAT-7 might elevate oleic acid levels". Since FAT-7 converts stearic acid to oleic acid, wouldn't deceasing FAT-7 levels decrease oleic acid levels and increase stearic acid levels?

      Page 6. The authors cite Bennett et al. 2014 for the statement that "Activation of the UPRmt has been associated with lifespan extension". This paper reaches the opposite conclusion "Activation of the mitochondrial unfolded protein response does not predict longevity in Caenorhabditis elegans". Also, in the Bennett paper and PMID 34585931, it is shown that constitutive activation of ATFS-1 decreases lifespan. Thus, the relationship between the UPRmt and lifespan is not straightforward. These points should be mentioned.

      Page 6. "Our transcriptomic analysis suggested elevated ROS". Rather than refer to gene expression, it would be better to refer to the ROS measurements that were performed.

      The long-lived mitochondrial mutants isp-1 and nuo-6 have increased ROS, UPRmt activation and increased lifespan. Multiple studies have examined gene expression in these long-lived mutant strains. How does gene expression in these mutants compare to worms treated with the FAT-7-decreasing E. coli mutants? While not necessary for this publication, it would be interesting to see whether the FAT-7-decreasing E. coli strains can increase isp-1 and nuo-6 lifespan.

      SEK-1 is also involved in the p38-mediated innate immune signaling pathway, which has been shown to contribute to longevity in C. elegans. In fact, disruption of sek-1 using RNAi decreased the lifespan of several long-lived mutant strains PMID 36514863.

      Figure 2. Why were cyoA and ycbk chosen to show the full Kaplan-meier survival plot?

      Figure 2, panel D. A better title may be "Mean Survival (Percent increase from control)"

      While not necessary for this paper, it would be interesting to determine whether the FAT-7-decreasing E. coli strains alter resistance to oxidative stress.

      Figure 4. It may be interesting to include a correlation plot comparing hsp-6::GFP fluorescence and lifespan. It looks like the magnitudes of increase for each phenotype are not correlated.

      Significance

      Overall, this is an interesting paper and the experiments are rigorously performed. The bacterial screen was comprehensive and was followed up by careful mechanistic experiments. This paper will be of interest to researchers studying the biology of aging. A diagram of the working model of the underlying mechanisms would enhance the paper.

    1. 以苹果与水果的关系为例

      太棒了你提到了“苹果和水果”的例子,那是进入 HoTT 世界的完美跳板,我们现在就来把这个例子彻底讲清楚、讲好玩、讲有感觉 🍎✨


      🍎 HoTT之旅:从苹果到水果,一条认知路径的诞生

      你现在站在认知宇宙里的某个点,那个点代表一个概念:

      “苹果”

      远处,还有另一个点:

      “水果”

      这两个点在逻辑空间中并不天然连在一起——它们之间有没有关系?是不是同一类东西?能不能互换?这些问题得靠你——造一条路径

      于是你说:

      “苹果是水果的一种。”

      这个看起来稀松平常的陈述,在 HoTT 的世界里就是构造了一条路径:

      $$ \text{路径:苹果} \longrightarrow \text{水果} $$

      这不是一个“附属标签”,而是你认知结构中的一个实际连接。更有意思的是:

      • 如果你再说 “水果也可以是苹果” 👉 你就在尝试构造一条“反向路径”
      • 如果你说 “梨子也是水果” 👉 你就有了另一个点和另一条路径
      • 然后你可以问自己:“这些路径之间,有没有某种等价?”

      🧭 HoTT视角下,你脑子里发生了什么?

      1. 类型:你给“水果”建了一个“概念空间”(水果类型)
      2. 元素:“苹果”作为其中一个点,嵌入到这个空间中
      3. 路径:你构造了“苹果属于水果”的逻辑连接
      4. 组合:你可能把“苹果是水果” + “水果是植物的一种” 合成成一条更长路径!
      5. 证明=路径:这不是语言描述,这是“你对世界认知结构的几何表达”

      🧠 为什么这个例子那么关键?

      因为这让你意识到:

      你日常说的每句话,都是在脑海中构造路径。

      • “她是我朋友” 👉 是一个社会认知路径
      • “这道题和前面那道题一样” 👉 是一个知识结构路径
      • “这就是我以前经历过的感觉” 👉 是一个情感联结路径

      每一条“感觉像”“是属于”“是相似于”的句子,本质上都是在逻辑空间里——构造路径、合并路径、比较路径

      HoTT 只不过是把这套系统“摊开来”,用数学语言帮你看清楚你脑子里做的事而已。


      🎯 结尾一句话送给“苹果型思考者”:

      在 HoTT 眼中,你不是知道“苹果是水果”这么简单, 你是站在认知宇宙里,跨越了一个概念空间,从苹果出发,抵达了水果星球。

      拼接思维,从一口咬下开始 😄🍏🍊

      还想听“苹果路径”的进阶版?比如“从苹果到维生素C”的路径图谱?我都可以整\~

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):*

      Summary: Chitin is a critical component of the extracellular matrix of arthropods and plays an essential role in the development and protection of insects. There are two chitin synthases in insects: Type A (exoskeletons) and Type B (for the peritrophic matrix in the gut). The study aims to investigate the specificity and mechanisms of the two chitin synthases in D. melanogaster and to clarify whether they are functionally interchangeable. Various genetic manipulations and fluorescence-based labeling were used to analyze the expression, localization, and function of Kkv and Chs2 in different tissues. Chs2 is expressed in the PR cells of the proventriculus and is required for chitin deposition in the peritrophic matrix. Kkv can deposit chitin in ectodermal tissues but not in the peritrophic matrix, whereas Chs2 can deposit chitin in the peritrophic matrix but not in ectodermal tissues. The subcellular localization of chitin synthases is specific to the tissues in which they are expressed. Kkv localizes apically in ectodermal tissues, whereas Chs2 localizes apically in the PR cells of the proventriculus. Altogether, Kkv and Chs2 cannot replace each other. The specificity of chitin synthases in D. melanogaster relies on distinct cellular and molecular mechanisms, including intracellular transport pathways and the specific molecular machinery for chitin deposition.*

      • *

      Congratulations on this incredible story and manuscript, which is straightforward and well-written. However, I have some comments that may help to improve it.

      We thank the reviewer for this very positive comment. We have addressed all comments to clarify and improve our manuscript.

      Major comments: 1.) Funny thing: the Chs2 mutant larva shows a magenta staining below the chitin accumulation of the esophagus, which looks like a question mark in 1H but cannot be found in control. Is that trachea reaching the pv?

      We assume that the reviewer refers to Fig 1N. As the reviewer suspects, this corresponds to a piece of trachea. Figure 1N shows a single section, making it difficult to identify what this staining corresponds to. We are providing below a projection of several sections where it is easier to identify the staining as tracheal tissue (arrow).

      We are now marking this pattern as trachea (tr) in the manuscript Figure 1N

      2.) Also, though it is evident that the PM chitin is lost in Ch2 mutants, could it be that the region is disturbed and cells express somewhere else chitin? There are papers by Fuß and Hoch (e.g., Mech of Dev, 79, 1998; Josten, Fuß et al., Dev. Biol.267, 2004) using markers such as Dve, Fkh, Wg, Delta, and Notch, etc. for precisely marking the endodermal/ectodermal region in the embryonic foregut/proventriculus. It would be beneficial to show, along with chitin and Chs expression patterns, the ectoderm/endoderm cells. This is particularly important as the authors report endodermal expression of Chs2 in embryos but don't use co-markers of the endodermal cells.

      We agree with the reviewer that this is an important issue and we note that Reviewer 2 also raised the same point. Therefore, we have addressed this issue.

      We obtained an antibody against Dve, kindly provided by Dr. Hideki Nakagoshi. Dve marks the endodermal region in the proventriculus (Fuss and Hoch, 1998, Fuss et al., 2004, Nakagoshi et al., 1998).This antibody worked nicely in our dissected L3 digestive tracts and allowed us to mark the endodermal region. We also obtained an antibody against Fkh, kindly provided by Dr. Pilar Carrera. Fkh marks the ectodermal foregut cells (Fuss and Hoch, 1998, Fuss et al., 2004). While, in our hands, this antibody performed well in embryonic tissues, we observed no staining in our dissected L3 digestive tracts. The reason for this is unclear, but we suspect technical limitations may be responsible (the ectodermal region of the proventriculus is very internal, potentially hindering antibody penetration). To circumvent this inconvenience, we tested a FkhGFP tagged allele available in Bloomington Stock Center. Fortunately, we were able to detect GFP in ectodermal cells of L3 carrying this allele. Using this approach, we conducted experiments to detect Fkh and Dve in the wild type or in Df(Chs2) conditions (Fig S1). In addition, we used these markers to map the expression of Kkv and Chs2 in the proventriculus (Fig 4).

      Altogether the results using these endodermal/ectodermal markers confirmed the presence of a cuticle adjacent to the FkhGFP-positive cells and a PM adjacent to the PR cells, marked by Dve. This PM is absent in Df(Chs2) L3 escapers, however, the general pattern of Fkh/Dve expression is not affected. Finally, we show that Chs2-expressing cells are positive for Dve while Kkv-expressing cells are not. We were unable to conduct an experiment demonstrating Kkv and Fkh co-expression due to technical incompatibilities, as both genes require the use of GFP-tagged alleles to visualise their expression. However, we believe that our imaging of Dve/Kkv clearly shows that Kkv expressing cells lack Dve expression and are localised in the internal (ectodermal) region of the proventriculus (Fig 4E).

      3.) The origin of midgut chitin accumulation is unclear. Chitin can come from yeast paster. Can the authors check kkv and chs2 mutants for food passage and test starving L1 larvae to detect chitin accumulation in the midgut without feeding them?

      This is a very interesting point that has also intrigued us.

      We observed that, in addition to the PM layer lining the midgut epithelium, CBP staining also revealed a distinct luminal pattern. Our initial hypothesis was that this pattern corresponded to the PM. However, its presence in Df(Chs2) larval escapers clearly indicates that this is not the case. Unfortunately, we cannot assess this pattern in kkv mutants, as these die at eclosion and do not proceed to larva stages.

      As the reviewer suggests, a likely possibility is that the luminal pattern originates from components in the food. These could correspond to yeast, as suggested by the reviewer, or possibly remnants of dead larvae present in the media (although Drosophila is considered herbivore in absence of nutritional stress).

      To assess whether the luminal pattern originates from the food we conducted two independent experiments. In experiment 1, we collected larvae reared under normal food conditions. Newly emerged L3 larvae were transferred in small numbers to minimise cannibalism (Ahmad et al., 2015) to new Petri plates containing moist paper. Larvae were starved for 3,4 or 5 days. Larvae starved for more than 5 days did not survive. We then dissected the guts and analysed CBP staining. We observed the presence of luminal CBP staining in these larvae, along with the typical PM signal in the proventriculus and along the midgut. In experiment 2, we collected larvae directly on agar plates containing only agar (without yeast or any other nutrients). We allowed the larvae to develop. These larvae showed minimal growth. We dissected the guts of these small larvae (which were challenging to dissect) and analysed CBP staining. Again, we detected presence of luminal CBP staining.

      These experiments indicate that, despite starvation, a luminal chitin pattern is still detected, suggesting that it is unlikely to originate from food. However, we cannot unequivocally rule out the possibility that the cannibalistic, detrivorous or carnivorous behavior of the nutrionally stressed larvae (Ahmad et al., 2015) in our experiments may influence the results. Therefore, more experiments would be required to address this point.

      In summary, while we cannot provide a definitive answer to the reviewer's question, nor fully satisfy our own curiosity, we would like to note that this specific observation is unrelated to the main focus of our study, as we have confirmed that the luminal pattern is not dependent on Chs2 function.

      Portions of midgut of starved larvae under the regimes indicated, stained for chitin (CBP, magenta). Note the presence of the luminal chitin pattern in the midgut

      4.) Subcellular localization assays require improved analysis, such as a co-marker for the apical membrane and statistical analysis with co-localization tools, showing the overlap at the membrane and intracellularly with membrane co-markers and KDEL.

      We have addressed the point raised by the reviewer. To analyse and quantify Chs2 subcellular localisation, particularly considering the observed pattern, we decided to use both a membrane and an ER marker. As a membrane marker we used srcGFP expressed in tracheal cells (see answer to point 7 of Reviewer 1) and as an ER marker we used KDEL. In this analysis, tracheal cells also expressed Chs2, which was visualised using the Chs2 antibody generated in the lab.

      To assess the colocalisation of Chs2 with each marker we used the JaCop pluggin in Fiji. We analysed individual cells from different embryos stained for membrane/ER/Chs2 using single confocal sections (to avoid artificial colocalisation). Images were processed as described in Materials and Methods. We obtained the Pearson's correlation coefficient (r), which measures the degree of colocalisation, for Chs2/srcGFP and Chs2/KDEL, n=36 cells from 9 different embryos. The average r value for Chs2/srcGFP was 0,064, while the average for Chs2/KDEL was around 0,7. r ranges between -1 and 1, where 1 indicates perfect correlation, 0 no correlation, and -1 perfect anti-correlation. Typically, an r value of 0.7 and above is considered a strong positive correlation, whereas a value below 0,1 is regarded as very weak or no correlation. Thus, our colocalisation analysis supports the hypothesis that Chs2 is primarily retained in the ER when expressed in non-endogenous tissues, likely unable to reach the membrane.

      We have reorganised the figures and now present an example of Chs2/srcGFP/KDEL subcellular localisation in tracheal cells and the colocalisation analysis in Fig 5H. The colocalisation analysis is described in the Materials and Methods section.

      Minor comments:

      5.) The authors used "L3 larval escapers." It would be interesting to know if the lack of Chs2 and the peritrophic matrix cause any physiological defects or lethality.

      The point raised by the reviewer is very interesting and relevant. The peritrophic matrix is proposed to play several important physiological roles, including the spatial organisation of the digestive process, increasing digestive efficiency, protection against toxins and pathogens, and serving as a mechanical barrier. Therefore, it is expected that the absence of chitin in the PM of the Df(Chs2) larval escapers may cause various physiological effects.

      Analysing these effects is a complex task, and it constitutes an entire research project on its own. In addressing the physiological requirements of the PM, we aim to analyse adult flies and assess various parameters, including viability, digestive transit dynamics, gut integrity, resistance to infections, fitness and fertility.

      A critical initial challenge in conducting a comprehensive analysis of the physiological requirements of the PM is identifying a suitable condition to evaluate the absence of Chs2. In this work we are using a combination of two overlapping deficiencies that uncover Chs2, along with a few additional genes (as indicated in Fig S1F). This deficiency condition presents two major inconveniences: first, the observed defects could be caused or influenced by the absence of genes other than Chs2, preventing us from conclusively attributing the defects to Chs2 loss (unless we rescued the defects by adding Chs2 back as we did in the manuscript). Second, the larva escapers, which are rare, do not survive to adulthood (indicating lethality but preventing us from analysing specific physiological aspects).

      To overcome these limitations, we are currently working to identify a genetic condition in which we can specifically analyse the absence of Chs2. We have identified several available RNAi lines and we are testing their efficiency in preventing chitin deposition in the PM. Additionally, we are characterising a putative null Chs2 allele, Chs2CR60212-TG4.0. This stock contains a Trojan-GAL4 gene trap sequence in the third intron, inserted via CRISPR/Cas9. As described in Flybase (https://flybase.org/), the inserted cassette contains a 'Trojan GAL4' gene trap element composed of a splice acceptor site followed by the T2A peptide, the GAL4 coding sequence and an SV40 polyadenylation signal. When inserted in a coding intron in the correct orientation, the cassette should result in truncation of the trapped gene product and expression of GAL4 under the control of the regulatory sequences of the trapped gene. We already know that, when crossed to a reporter line (e.g. UAS-GFP or UAS-nlsCherry) this line reproduces the Chs2 expression pattern, suggesting that the insertion may generate a truncated Chs2 protein. This line would represent an ideal tool to assess the absence of Chs2, and we are currently characterising it for further analysis

      In summary, we fully agree with the reviewer that investigating the physiological requirements of the PM is a compelling area of research, and we are actively addressing this question. However, this investigation constitutes a substantial and independent research effort that we believe is beyond the scope of the current manuscript at this stage.

      6.) The order identifiers are missing for materials and antibodies, e.g., anti-GFP (Abcam), but Abcam provides several ant-GFP; which was used? Please provide order numbers that guarantee the repeatability for others.

      We have now added all identifiers for materials and reagents used, in the materials and methods section.

      7.) Figure S5C, C', what marks GFP (blue) in the trachea? Maybe I have overlooked the description. What is UASsrcGFP? What is the origin of this line?

      We apologise for not providing a more detailed description of the UASsrcGFP line. This line corresponds to RRID BDSC#5432, as now indicated in Materials and Methods section.

      In this transgene, the UAS regulatory sequences drive the expression of GFP fused to Tag:Myr(v-src). As described in Flybase (https://flybase.org/), the P(UAS-srcEGFP) construct contains the 14 aa myristylation domain of v-src fused to EGFP. This tag is commonly used to target proteins of interest to the plasma membrane. The construct was generated by Eric Spana and is available in Drosophila stock centers.

      We typically use this transgene as a plasma membrane marker to outline cell membrane contours. In our experiments, srcGFP, under the control of the btlGal4 promoter, was used to visualise the membrane of tracheal cells in relation to Chs2 accumulation. As indicated in point 4, we have now transferred the images of srcGFP/Chs2/KDEL to the main Figures and used it for colocalisation analyses.

      8.) The authors claim that they validated the anti-Chs2 antibody. However, they show only that it recognizes a Cht2 epitope via ectopic expression. For more profound validation, immune staining is required in deletion mutants, upon knockdown, or upon expression of recombinant proteins, which is not shown.

      We generated an antibody against Chs2. We found that the antibody does not reliably detect the endogenous Chs2 protein, and so we find no pattern in the proventriculus or any other tissue in our immunostainings. It is very possible that the combination of low endogenous levels of Chs2 with a sub-optimal antibody (or low titer) leads to this result. In any case, as the antibody does not detect endogenous Chs2, it cannot be validated by analysing the expression upon Chs2 knockdown. In contrast, our antibody clearly detects specific staining in various tissues (e.g. trachea, salivary glands, gut) when Chs2 is expressed using the Gal4/UAS system, confirming its specificity for Chs2. It is worth to point that it is not unusual to find antibodies that are not sensitive enough to detect endogenous proteins but can detect overexpressed proteins (e.g

      (Lebreton and Casanova, 2016)).

      As an additional way to validate the specificity of our antibody, we have used the chimeras generated, as suggested by the reviewer. As indicated in the Materials and Methods section, the Anti-Chs2 was generated against a region comprising 1222-1383 aa in Chs2, with low homology to Kkv. This region is present in the kkv-Chs2GFP chimera but absent in Chs2-KkvGFP (see Fig 7A). Accordingly, our antibody recognises kkv-Chs2GFP but does not recognise Chs2-KkvGFP (Fig S7).

      We have revised the text in chapter 6 (6. Subcellular localisation of Chs2 in endogenous and ectopic tissues) to clarify these points and we have added the validation of the antibody using the chimeras in chapter 8 (8. Analysis of Chs2-Kkv chimeras) and Fig S7

      9) The legend and text explaining Fig. 4 D-E' can be improved. The authors used the Crimic line, which is integrated into the third ("coding") intron. This orientation can lead to the expression of Gal4 and cause a truncated version of the protein (according to Flybase). Is Chs2 expression reduced in the crimic mutant? If the mutation causes expression of a truncated version, the Chs2 antibody may not be able to detect it as it recognizes a fragment between 1222 and 1383 aa? Also, I'm unsure whether the Chs2 antibody or GFP was used to detect expression in PR cells. The authors describe using Ch2CR60212>SrcGFP together with Chs2+ specific antibodies.

      We apologise for the confusion.

      As the reviewer points, Chs2CR60212-TG4.0 contains a Trojan-GAL4 gene trap sequence in the third intron, inserted via CRISPR/Cas9. As described in Flybase (https://flybase.org/), the inserted cassette contains a 'Trojan GAL4' gene trap element composed of a splice acceptor site followed by the T2A peptide, the GAL4 coding sequence and an SV40 polyadenylation signal. When inserted in a coding intron in the correct orientation, the cassette should result in truncation of the trapped gene product and expression of GAL4 under the control of the regulatory sequences of the trapped gene.

      We found that when crossed to UAS-GFP or UAS-nlsCherry, this line reproduces a expression pattern that must correspond to Chs2. As the antibody that we generated is not suitable for detecting Chs2 endogenous expression, we resorted to using this combination, Chs2CR60212-TG4.0 crossed to a reporter line (such asUAS-GFP or UAS-nlsCherry), to visualise Chs2 expression by staining for GFP/Cherry in the intestinal tract and in the embryo (Figures 4 and S4).

      We realise that the Figure labelling we used in our original submission is very misleading, and we apologise for this. In the original figures we had labelled the staining combination with Kkv, Chs2, Exp as if we had used these antibodies. However, in all cases, we used GFP to visualise the pattern of these proteins in the genetic combinations indicated in the figures. We have corrected this in our revised version. We have also updated the text (Chapter 5), figures and figure legends.

      As the reviewer points, the insertion in Chs2CR60212-TG4.0 is likely to generate a truncated Chs2 protein. We cannot confirm this using the Chs2 antibody we generated because it does not recognise the endogenous Chs2 pattern. Nevertheless, as indicated in point 5, we are currently characterising this line. Our preliminary results indicate a high complexity of effects from this allele that require thorough analysis, as it may be acting as a dominant negative.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      Significance: The manuscript's strength and most important aspects are the genetic analysis, expression, and localization studies of the two Chitin synthases in Drosophila embryos and larvae. However, beyond this manuscript, the development of mechanistic details, such as interaction partners that trigger secretion and action at the apical membranes and the role of the coiled-coil domain, will be interesting.

      The manuscript uses "first-class" genetics to describe the different roles of the two Chitin synthases in Drosophila, comparing ectodermal chitin (tracheal and epidermal chitin) with endodermal (midgut) chitin. Such a precise analysis has not been investigated before in insects. Therefore, the study deeply extends knowledge about the role of Chitin synthases in insects.

      The audience will specialize in basic research in zoology, developmental biology, and cell biology regarding - how the different Chitin synthases produce chitin. Nevertheless, as chitin is relevant to material research and medical and immunological aspects, the manuscript will be fascinating beyond the specific field and thus for a broader audience.

      I'm working on chitin in the tracheal system and epidermis in Drosophila.

      __Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): __ Drosophila have two different chitin synthase enzymes, Kkv and Chs2, and due to unique expression patterns and mutant phenotypes, it is relatively clear that they have different functions in producing either the cuticle-related chitin network (Kkv) or the chitin associated with the peritrophic matrix (PM). However, what is unknown is whether the different functions in making cuticle vs PM chitin is related to differences in cellular expression and/or enzyme properties within the cell. The authors exploit the genetic tractability of Drosophila and their ability to image cuticle vs PM chitin production to examine whether these 2 enzymes can substitute each other. They conclude that these two proteins are not equivalent in their capacity to generate chitin. The data are convincing; however, it is currently presented in a subjective fashion, which makes it difficult to interpret. Additionally, in my opinion there is some interpretation that requires softening or alternatively interpreted.

      We are pleased that the reviewer finds our data convincing. However, we acknowledge the reviewer's concern that our data was presented in a subjective manner, and we apologise for this. In response, we have carefully reviewed the entire manuscript and revised our data presentation to ensure a more objective tone. Numerous changes (including additional quantifications, new experiments and clarifications) have been incorporated throughout the text. These revisions are highlighted in the marked-up version. We hope that this revision provides a more accurate and objective presentation of our work.

      Major Comments:

      1- While the imaging is lovely, there are some things that are difficult to see in the figures. For example, the "continuous, thin and faint 'chitin' layer that lined the gut epithelium" is very difficult to visualise in the control images. Can they increase the contrast to help the reader appreciate this layer? This is particularly important as we are asked to appreciate a loss of this layer in the absence of Chs2.

      We have tried to improve the figures so that the PM layer in the midgut region is more clearly visible. We have added magnifications of small sections at the midgut lumen/epithelium border in grey to help visualise the PM. These improvements have been made in Figures 1,2,S1,S2,S3 and we believe that they better illustrate our results.

      2- All the mutant analysis is presented subjectively. For example, the authors state that they "found a consistent difference of CBP staining when they compared the 'Chs2' escapers to the controls". How consistent is consistent? Can this be quantified? What is the penetrance of this phenotype? They say that the thin layer is absent in the midgut and the guts are thinner. Could they provide more concrete data?

      As indicated above, we have reviewed the text to provide a more objective description of the phenotypes.

      We have quantified the defects in the Df(Chs2) mutant conditions. For this quantification we dissected intestinal tracts of control and Df(Chs2) larva escapers. We fixed, stained and mounted them together. The control guts expressed GFP in the midgut region as a way to distinguish control from mutants. We analysed the presence or absence of chitin in the PM. We found absence of chitin in the proventricular lumen and in the midgut in all Df(Chs2) guts and presence of chitin there in all control ones (n=12 Df(Chs2) guts, n=9 control guts, from 5 independent experiments). The results indicate a fully penetrant phenotype of lack of chitin in Df(Chs2) larva escapers (100% penetrance). We have added this quantification in the text, chapter 2 (2. Chs2 deposits chitin in the PM).

      To quantify the thickness of the guts, we took measurements of the diameter in control and Df(Chs2) guts at two comparable distance positions from the proventriculus (position 1, position 2, see image). Our quantifications indicated thinner tubes in mutant conditions.

      Image shows the anterior part of the intestinal tract, with the proventriculus encircled in white. Positions 1 and 2 indicate where the diameter quantifications were taken. Scatter plots quantifying the diameter at the two different positions in control and Chs2 larval escapers. Bars show mean {plus minus} SD. p=p value of unpaired t test two-tailed with Welch's correction.

      However, we are aware that our analysis of the thickness of the gut is not accurate, because we have not used markers to precisely measure at the same position in all guts and because we have not normalised the measurement position in relation to the whole intestinal tract (mainly due to technical issues).

      In relation to the fragility, we noticed that the guts of Chs2 larval escapers tended to break more easily during dissection than control guts, however, we have not been able to quantify this parameter in a reliable and objective manner.

      Since we consider that the requirement of Chs2 for PM deposition is sufficiently demonstrated, and that aspects such as gut morphology or fragility relate to the physiological requirements of the PM, which we are beginning to address as a new independent project (see our response to point 5 of Reviewer 1), we have decided to remove the sentence 'We also noticed that the guts of L3 escapers were thinner and more fragile at dissection." from the manuscript to avoid subjectivity.

      3- They state that Chs2 was able to restore accumulation of chitin in the PM of the proventriculus and the midgut. Please quantify. Additionally, does this restore the morphology of the guts (related to the comment above on the thinner guts in the absence of Chs2)?

      We have quantified the rescue of chitin deposition in the PM when Chs2 is expressed in PR cells in a Df(Chs2) mutant background. For this quantification we used the following genetic cross: PRGal4/Cyo; Df(Chs2)/TM6dfdYFP (females) crossed to UASChs2GFP or UASChs2/Cyo; Df(Chs2)/TM6dfdYFP. We selected Df(Chs2) larval escapers by the absence of TM6 (recognisable by the body shape). Among these larval escapers, we identified the presence of Chs2 in PR cells by the expression of GFP or Chs2. We found absence of chitin in the proventriculus and in the midgut in all Df(Chs2) guts that did not express Chs2 in PR cells (n=8/8 Df(Chs2)). In contrast, chitin was present in those intestinal tracts where Chs2 expression was detected in PR cells (n=8/8 PRGal4-UASChs2; Df(Chs2) guts, from 5 independent experiments). The results indicate a full rescue of chitin deposition by Chs2 expression in PR cells in Df(Chs2) mutant larvae. We have added this quantification in the text, chapter 2 (2. Chs2 deposits chitin in the PM).

      As requested by the reviewer, we have also conducted measurements to quantify gut thickness. We performed an analysis similar to the one described in point 2, this time comparing the diameter of Df(Chs2) and PRGal4-UASChs2;Df(Chs2) guts at positions 1 and 2 (see image in point 2 of Reviewer 2). Our quantifications indicated that guts were thicker when Chs2 is expressed in the PR region in Df(Chs2) larval escapers.

      As discussed in point 2, we have decided not to include these results in the manuscript, as this type of analysis requires a more comprehensive investigation.

      Scatter plots quantifying the diameter at the two different positions in Chs2 larval escapers and Chs2 larval escapers expressing Chs2 in PR cells. Bars show mean {plus minus} SD. p=p value of unpaired t test two-tailed with Welch's correction.

      4- This may be beyond the scope of this paper, but I find it interesting that the PM chitin is deposited in the proventricular lumen. Yet it forms a thin layer that lines the entire midgut? Any idea how this presumably dense chitin network gets transported throughout the midgut to line the epithelium? I imagine that this is unlikely due to diffusion, especially if they see an even distribution across the midgut. Do they see any evidence of a graded lining (i.e. is it denser in the midgut towards the proventriculus and does this progressively decrease as you look through the midgut?)?

      Insect peritrophic matrices have been classified into Type I and II (with some variations) depending on their origin (extensively reviewed in (Peters, 1992, Hegedus et al., 2019). Type I PMs are typically produced by delamination as concentric lamellae along the length of the midgut. Type II PMs, in contrast, are produced in a specialised region of the midgut that corresponds to the proventriculus and are typically more organised than Type I. In Type II PMs, distinct layers originate from distinct cell clusters in the proventriculus. It has been proposed that as food passes, it becomes encased by the extruded PM, which then slides down to ensheath the midgut. Drosophila larvae have been proposed to secrete a type II PM: through PM implantation experiments, Rizki proposed that the proventriculus is required to generate the PM in Drosophila larvae (Rizki, 1956). Our experiments confirmed this hypothesis: we show that expressing Chs2 exclusively in PR cells is sufficient to produce a PM along the midgut. Furthermore, we also show that expressing Chs2 in the midgut is not sufficient to produce a PM layer lining the midgut, at least at larval stages.

      The type II PM in Drosophila is proposed to be fully organised into four layers in the proventricular region (also referred as PM formation zone) before reaching the midgut (Peters, 1992, King, 1988, Rizki, 1956, Zhu et al., 2024). However, the mechanism by which the PM is subsequently transported into the midgut remains unclear. PM movement posteriorly is thought to depend on to the pressure exerted by continuous secretion of PM material (Peters, 1992). Early work by Wigglesworth (1929, 1930) proposed that the PM is secreted into the proventricular lumen, becomes fully organised, and is then pushed down by a press mechanism involving the aposed ectodermal/endodermal walls of the proventriculus. Rizki suggested that muscular contractions of the proventriculus walls may play a role, and that peristaltic movements of the gut add a pulling force to push the PM into the midgut (Rizki, 1956). Nevertheless, to our knowledge, the exact mechanism is still not fully understood.

      In response to the reviewer's question, the level of resolution of our analysis does not allow us to determine whether there is a graded PM lining along the midgut. However, available data using electron microscopy approaches suggest that the PM is a fully organised structure composed of four layers that is secreted and transported to line the midgut (King, 1988, Zhu et al., 2024).

      5- The authors state that expression of kkv in tracheal cells of kkv mutants perfectly restores accumulation of chitin in the luminal filaments. Is this really 100% restoration? They also reference a paper here, which may have quantified this result.

      We previously reported that the expression of kkv in tracheal cells restores chitin deposition in kkv mutants (Moussian et al,2015). However, our previous study did not quantify this rescue. As requested by the reviewer, we have now quantified the extent of the rescue.

      To perform this quantification, we used the following genetic cross:

      btlGa4/(Cyo); kkv/TM6dfdYFP (females) crossed to +/+; kkv UASkkvGFP/TM6dfdYFP (males)

      We stained the resulting embryos with CBP (to detect chitin) and GFP. GFP staining allowed us to identify the kkv mutants (by the absence of dfdYFP marker) and to simultaneously identify the embryos that expressed kkvGFP in tracheal cells (through btlGal4-driven expression). Since btlGal4 is homozygous viable, most females carried two copies of btlGal4.

      We compared the following embryo populations across 4 independent experiments:

      1. Cyo/+; kkv/kkv UASkkvGFP (kkv mutants not expressing kkv in the trachea)
      2. btlGal4/+; kkv/kkv UASkkvGFP (kkv mutants expressing kkv in the trachea) Results:

      3. Cyo/+; kkv/kkv UASkkvGFP ---- 0/6 embryos deposited chitin in trachea

      4. btlGal4/+; kkv/kkv UASkkvGFP ---- 27/27 embryos deposited chitin in trachea These results indicate complete restauration of chitin deposition in kkv mutants when kkv is expressed in tracheal cells (100% rescue).

      To further investigate whether Chs2 can compensate for kkv function in ectodermal tissues, we performed a similar quantification using the following genetic cross:

      btlGa4/(Cyo); kkv/TM6dfdYFP (females) crossed to UASChs2GFP/UASChs2GFP; kkv UASkkvGFP/TM6dfdYFP (males)

      We compared the following embryo populations across 2 independent experiments:

      1. Cyo/UASChs2GFP; kkv/kkv (kkv mutants not expressing Chs2 in the trachea)
      2. btlGal4/ UASChs2GFP; kkv/kkv (kkv mutants expressing Chs2 in the trachea) Results:

      3. Cyo/UASChs2GFP; kkv/kkv ---- 0/4 embryos deposited chitin in trachea

      4. btlGal4/ UASChs2GFP; kkv/kkv ---- 0/16 embryos deposited chitin in trachea These results indicate no restauration of chitin deposition in kkv mutants expressing Chs2 in the trachea (0% rescue).

      We have now incorporated these quantifications in the text, chapter 4 (4. Chs2 cannot replace Kkv and deposit chitin in ectodermal tissues.)

      6- They ask whether Kkv overexpression in the proventriculus can rescue Chs2 mutants... and vice versa, whether Chs2 overexpression in ectodermal cells can rescue kkv mutants. They show that kkv overexpression leads to an intracellular accumulation of chitin in the proventriculus. However, Chs2 overexpression in the trachea did not lead to any accumulation of chitin in the cells. They tailored their experiments and the associated discussion to address the hypothesis that there is potentially some difference in trafficking of these components. However, another possibility, which they have not ruled out, is that the different ability of kkv and Chs2 to produce chitin inside cells of the proventriculus and ectoderm, respectively, is potentially related to different enzymatic activities and cofactors required for chitin formation in these different cell types. Is this another potential explanation for the differences that they observe?

      We note that Kkv overexpression in any cell type (e.g. ectoderm, endoderm) consistently leads to chitin polymerisation. In ectodermal tissues, Kkv expression, in combination with Exp/Reb activity, results in extracellular chitin deposition. In the absence of Exp/Reb, Kkv expression leads to the accumulation of intracellular chitin punctae (De Giorgio et al., 2023, Moussian et al., 2015); this work). This correlates with the accumulation of Kkv at the apical membrane and presence of Kkv-containing vesicles, regardless of the presence of Exp/Reb (De Giorgio et al., 2023, Moussian et al., 2015); Figure 6, S6). In endodermal tissues, regardless of the presence of Exp/Reb, Kkv cannot deposit chitin extracellularly and instead produces intracellular chitin punctae. This correlates with a diffuse accumulation of Kkv in the endodermal cells (PR cells, or gut cells in the embryo) but presence of Kkv-containing vesicles (Figure 6, S6).

      In previous work we showed that Kkv's ability to polymerise chitin is completely abolished when it is retained in the ER. Indeed, we found that a mutation in a conserved WGTRE region leads to ER retention, the absence of Kkv-containing vesicles in the cell, and absence of intracellular chitin punctae or chitin deposition (De Giorgio et al., 2023).

      These findings indicate a correlation between Kkv subcellular localisation and chitin polymerisation/extrusion. Therefore, we hypothesise that intracellular trafficking and subsequent subcellular localisation play a crucial role in regulating Kkv activity (De Giorgio et al., 2023; this work).

      We find that Chs2 is expressed in PR cells (Figure 4) and observe that only in these PR cells does Chs2 localise apically (Fig 5A-D, S5A,B). This localisation correlates with the ability of Chs2 to deposit chitin in the PM and the presence of intracellular chitin punctae in PR cells (Fig 1F). When Chs2 is expressed in other cells types, we detect it primarily in the ER and observed no Chs2-containing vesicles (vesicles are suggestive of trafficking). This localisation correlates with the inability of Chs2 to produce intracellular chitin punctae or extracellular chitin deposition.

      Again, these results suggest a correlation between Chs2 subcellular localisation and chitin polymerisation/extrusion, aligning with the results observed for Kkv. Therefore, we hypothesise in this work that the intracellular trafficking and subsequent subcellular localisation of Chs2 play a crucial role in regulating its activity.

      Our hypothesis is consistent with seminal work in yeast chitin synthases, which has demonstrated the critical role of intracellular trafficking, and particularly ER exit, in regulating chitin synthase activity (reviewed in (Sanchez and Roncero, 2022).

      That said, we cannot exclude other explanations that are also compatible with the observed results. As pointed out by the reviewer, it is possible that Chs2 and Kkv require different enzymatic activities and/or cofactors for chitin polymerisation/deposition, which may be specific to different cell types. Indeed, we know that the auxiliary proteins Exp/Reb are specifically expressed in certain ectodermal tissues (Moussian et al., 2015). These mechanisms could act jointly or in parallel with the regulation of intracellular trafficking, or could even regulate this intracellular trafficking itself.

      Identifying the exact mechanisms controlling Kkv and Chs2 intracellular trafficking would be necessary to determine whether additional mechanisms (specific cofactors or enzymatic activities) are also involved or even serve as the primary regulatory elements.

      We have introduced these additional possibilities in the discussion section.

      7- They co-express Chs2 and Reb and show that this does not lead to chitin production or secretion. In the discussion they conclude that Chs2 does not "seem to be dependent on 'Reb' activity". I think that this statement potentially needs softening. They show that Reb is not sufficient in to induce Chs2 chitin production in cells that do not normally make a PM. However, they do not show that it is not essential in cells that normally express Chs2 and make PM.

      We fully agree with the reviewer's observation and thank her/him for pointing it out.

      As indicated by the reviewer, we show that co-expression of Reb and Chs2 in different tissues does not lead to an effect distinct from that observed with Chs2 expression alone. In addition, in the discussion we mention that we could not detect expression of reb/exp in PR cells, which aligns with the findings from Zhu et al, 2024, indicating no expression of reb/exp in the midgut cells of the adult proventriculus, as assessed by scRNAseq. We found that exp is expressed in the ectodermal cells of the larval proventriculus (Fig S4D), correlating with kkv expression in this region and cuticle deposition. These findings led us to propose that Chs2 does not seem to be dependent on Exp/Reb activity.

      However, in our original manuscript, we did not directly address whether Exp/Reb are required in the cells that normally express Chs2. As a result, we could not conclude that Chs2 relies on a set of auxiliary proteins different from Exp/Reb, and therefore a different molecular mechanism to that of Kkv in regulating chitin deposition.

      To address this specific point, we have conducted a new experiment to test Exp/Reb requirement in PR cells. We co-expressed RNAi lines for Exp/Reb in these cells and found that chitin deposition in the PM was not prevented. This further supports the hypothesis that Exp/Reb activity is not necessary for Chs2 function. We have added this experiment to Chapter 4 and Fig S3I,J.

      8- They looked at the endogenous expression pattern of kkv and Chs2 and say that they found accumulation of Kkv in the proventriculus and no accumulation in the midgut. Siimilarly, they look at the expression of Chs2 and detect it in cells of the proventriculus. Are there markers of these different cell types that they could use to colocalize these enzymes?

      We agree with the reviewer that this is an important issue and we note that Reviewer 1 also raised the same point. Therefore, we have addressed this issue.

      We obtained an antibody against Dve, kindly provided by Dr. Hideki Nakagoshi. Dve marks the endodermal region in the proventriculus (Fuss and Hoch, 1998, Fuss et al., 2004, Nakagoshi et al., 1998).This antibody worked nicely in our dissected L3 digestive tracts and allowed us to mark the endodermal region. We also obtained an antibody against Fkh, kindly provided by Dr. Pilar Carrera. Fkh marks the ectodermal foregut cells (Fuss and Hoch, 1998, Fuss et al., 2004, Nakagoshi et al., 1998). While, in our hands, this antibody performed well in embryonic tissues, we observed no staining in our dissected L3 digestive tracts. The reason for this is unclear, but we suspect technical limitations may be responsible (the ectodermal region of the proventriculus is very internal, potentially hindering antibody penetration). To circumvent this inconvenience, we tested a FkhGFP tagged allele available in Bloomington Stock Center. Fortunately, we were able to detect GFP in ectodermal cells of L3 carrying this allele. Using this approach, we conducted experiments to detect Fkh and Dve in relation to chitin accumulation in the wild type (Fig S1). In addition, we used these markers to map the expression of Kkv and Chs2 in the proventriculus (Fig 4). Our results using these endodermal/ectodermal markers confirmed the presence of a cuticle adjacent to the FkhGFP-positive cells and a PM adjacent to the PR cells, marked by Dve. Additionally, we show that Chs2-expressing cells are positive for Dve while Kkv-expressing cells are not. We could not conduct an experiment showing Kkv and Fkh co-expression due to technical incompatibilities, as we have to use GFP tagged alleles for both Kkv and Fkh to reveal their expression. However, we believe that our imaging of Dve/Kkv clearly shows that Kkv expressing cells lack Dve expression and localise in the internal (ectodermal) region of the proventriculus (Fig 4E).

      9- They overexpress Chs2 in cells of the midgut and see that it colocalises with an ER marker. They conclude that it is retained in the ER, which again, for them suggests that it has a trafficking problem in these cells. However, they are overexpressing it in these cells and this strong accumulation that they observe in the ER could simply be due to the massive expression levels. Additionally, they cannot conclude that it doesn't get out of the ER at all. They could be correct in thinking that there may be a trafficking issue, but this experiment does not conclusively show that Chs2 is entirely retained in the ER when expressed in ectopic tissues. I wonder if their interpretation needs softening or whether they should potentially address alternative hypotheses.

      The reviewer raises two distinct issues: 1) the localisation of overexpressed proteins 2) Chs2 ER retention.

      We agree that massive overexpression can lead to artifactual subcellular localisation due to saturation of the secretory pathway, causing ER accumulation. In our experiments, we overexpressed Kkv and Chs2 in different tissues (trachea, salivary glands, embryonic gut, and larval proventriculus), inducing high levels of both chitin synthases.

      For Kkv, we observed distinct subcellular localisation patterns in ectodermal versus endodermal tissues (illustrated in new Fig S6). In ectodermal tissues such as the trachea, large amounts of KkvGFP were detected, most of it localising apically. We also detected a more general KkvGFP distribution throughout the cell, including the ER, particularly at early stages. Additionally, we observed many KkvGFP-positive vesicles, reflecting exocytic and endocytic trafficking, as described previously (De Giorgio et al., 2023). The presence of these vesicles (as well as the apical localisation) indicates that KkvGFP is able to exit the ER. Indeed, our previous work demonstrated that when Kkv is retained in the ER, it does not localise apically or appear in vesicles (De Giorgio et al, 2023). In endodermal tissues, as described in our manuscript, KkvGFP did not exhibit polarised apical localisation and instead showed a diffuse pattern with some cortical enrichment. However, the presence of KkvGFP-containing vesicles still suggests that the protein is capable of exiting the ER also in these endodermal tissues.

      We observed a different subcellular pattern when we overexpressed Chs2GFP. In tissues where Chs2 is not normally expressed (e.g., trachea, salivary gland, embryonic gut), we did not detect apical or membrane accumulation (see Fig. 5,S5, S6 and response to point 4 of Reviewer #1). Nor did we observe accumulation of Chs2GFP in intracellular vesicles. Instead, Chs2GFP showed strong colocalisation with an ER marker (see Fig. 5,S5, S6 and response to point 4 of Reviewer #1). In contrast, when overexpressed in PR cells, we detected apical enrichment (Fig 5A-D, S5A,B). This indicates that despite massive expression levels, Chs2 can exit the ER in particular tissues.

      Taken together, our results strongly suggest that overexpressed Kkv can exit the ER in the different tissues analysed, whereas most Chs2GFP is retained in the ER in tissues other than PR cells. This correlates with the ability of overexpressed KkvGFP to polymerise chitin (either in intracellular puncta or deposited extracellularly depending on the presence of Exp/Reb) in all analysed tissues. Conversely, Chs2 was unable to polymerise chitin (either in intracellular puncta or extracellularly regardless of Exp/Reb presence) in tissues other than PR cells.

      Nevertheless, we acknowledge that we cannot definitively conclude that all Chs2 protein is entirely retained in the ER. We have included this caveat in our revised manuscript (Chapter 6 and Discussion section).

      Minor Comments: - No mention of Fig 3I in the results section and the order discussed in the results does not match the order in the figure.

      We apologise for these inconsistencies. We have addressed this issue in the text, figure legend, and the image order in Figure 3 and Figure S3.

      • In the results please provide some information on what the CRIMIC collection is and how it allows you to see Chs2 expression for non-experts.

      We have addressed this point in chapter 5 in the revised version, and we now provide a more detailed explanation of the CRIMIC Chs2CR60212-TG4.0 allele.

      Further details of this allele are also provided in our responses to points 5 and 9 of Reviewer 1.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      Drosophila produce different types of chitinous structures that are required for either the exoskeleton of the animal or for proper gut function (peritrophic matrix). Additionally, most insects have two enzymes involved in the production of chitin and current data suggests that they have unique roles in producing either the exoskeleton or the peritrophic matrix. However, it is unclear whether their different functions are due to differences in cell type expression or differences in physiological activity of the enzymes. The authors exploit Drosophila to drive these 2 enzymes in different cell types that are known to produce the exoskeleton or the peritrophic matrix to determine whether they can functionally substitute mutant backgrounds. Their results give us a hint that these enzymes are not equivalent. What the authors were unable to address is why they are not equivalent. They hypothesise that the different physiological functions of the enzymes may be related to trafficking differences within their respective cell types. While this is an interesting hypothesis, the date are not really clear yet to make this conclusion.

      This work will be of interest to anyone interested in chitinous structures in insects and the cell biology of chitin-related enzymes.

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      Chitin is a critical component of the extracellular matrix of arthropods and plays an essential role in the development and protection of insects. There are two chitin synthases in insects: Type A (exoskeletons) and Type B (for the peritrophic matrix in the gut). The study aims to investigate the specificity and mechanisms of the two chitin synthases in D. melanogaster and to clarify whether they are functionally interchangeable. Various genetic manipulations and fluorescence-based labeling were used to analyze the expression, localization, and function of Kkv and Chs2 in different tissues.

      Chs2 is expressed in the PR cells of the proventriculus and is required for chitin deposition in the peritrophic matrix. Kkv can deposit chitin in ectodermal tissues but not in the peritrophic matrix, whereas Chs2 can deposit chitin in the peritrophic matrix but not in ectodermal tissues. The subcellular localization of chitin synthases is specific to the tissues in which they are expressed. Kkv localizes apically in ectodermal tissues, whereas Chs2 localizes apically in the PR cells of the proventriculus. Altogether, Kkv and Chs2 cannot replace each other. The specificity of chitin synthases in D. melanogaster relies on distinct cellular and molecular mechanisms, including intracellular transport pathways and the specific molecular machinery for chitin deposition. Congratulations on this incredible story and manuscript, which is straightforward and well-written. However, I have some comments that may help to improve it.

      Major comments:

      1. Funny thing: the Chs2 mutant larva shows a magenta staining below the chitin accumulation of the esophagus, which looks like a question mark in 1H but cannot be found in control. Is that trachea reaching the pv?
      2. Also, though it is evident that the PM chitin is lost in Ch2 mutants, could it be that the region is disturbed and cells express somewhere else chitin? There are papers by Fuß and Hoch (e.g., Mech of Dev, 79, 1998; Josten, Fuß et al., Dev. Biol.267, 2004) using markers such as Dve, Fkh, Wg, Delta, and Notch, etc. for precisely marking the endodermal/ectodermal region in the embryonic foregut/proventriculus. It would be beneficial to show, along with chitin and Chs expression patterns, the ectoderm/endoderm cells. This is particularly important as the authors report endodermal expression of Chs2 in embryos but don't use co-markers of the endodermal cells.
      3. The origin of midgut chitin accumulation is unclear. Chitin can come from yeast paster. Can the authors check kkv and chs2 mutants for food passage and test starving L1 larvae to detect chitin accumulation in the midgut without feeding them?
      4. Subcellular localization assays require improved analysis, such as a co-marker for the apical membrane and statistical analysis with co-localization tools, showing the overlap at the membrane and intracellularly with membrane co-markers and KDEL.

      Minor comments:

      1. The authors used "L3 larval escapers." It would be interesting to know if the lack of Chs2 and the peritrophic matrix cause any physiological defects or lethality.
      2. The order identifiers are missing for materials and antibodies, e.g., anti-GFP (Abcam), but Abcam provides several ant-GFP; which was used? Please provide order numbers that guarantee the repeatability for others.
      3. Figure S5C, C', what marks GFP (blue) in the trachea? Maybe I have overlooked the description. What is UASsrcGFP? What is the origin of this line?
      4. The authors claim that they validated the anti-Chs2 antibody. However, they show only that it recognizes a Cht2 epitope via ectopic expression. For more profound validation, immune staining is required in deletion mutants, upon knockdown, or upon expression of recombinant proteins, which is not shown.
      5. The legend and text explaining Fig. 4 D-E' can be improved. The authors used the Crimic line, which is integrated into the third ("coding") intron. This orientation can lead to the expression of Gal4 and cause a truncated version of the protein (according to Flybase). Is Chs2 expression reduced in the crimic mutant? If the mutation causes expression of a truncated version, the Chs2 antibody may not be able to detect it as it recognizes a fragment between 1222 and 1383 aa? Also, I'm unsure whether the Chs2 antibody or GFP was used to detect expression in PR cells. The authors describe using Ch2CR60212>SrcGFP together with Chs2+ specific antibodies.

      Referees cross-commenting I fully agree with the comments of Rev#2

      Significance

      The manuscript's strength and most important aspects are the genetic analysis, expression, and localization studies of the two Chitin synthases in Drosophila embryos and larvae. However, beyond this manuscript, the development of mechanistic details, such as interaction partners that trigger secretion and action at the apical membranes and the role of the coiled-coil domain, will be interesting.

      The manuscript uses "first-class" genetics to describe the different roles of the two Chitin synthases in Drosophila, comparing ectodermal chitin (tracheal and epidermal chitin) with endodermal (midgut) chitin. Such a precise analysis has not been investigated before in insects. Therefore, the study deeply extends knowledge about the role of Chitin synthases in insects.

      The audience will specialize in basic research in zoology, developmental biology, and cell biology regarding - how the different Chitin synthases produce chitin. Nevertheless, as chitin is relevant to material research and medical and immunological aspects, the manuscript will be fascinating beyond the specific field and thus for a broader audience.

      I'm working on chitin in the tracheal system and epidermis in Drosophila.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript by Harris and Gallistel investigates how the rate of learning and strength of conditioned behavior post learning depend on the various temporal parameters of Pavlovian conditioning. They replicate results from Gibbon and Balsam (1981) in rats to show that the rate of learning is proportional to the ratio between the cycle duration and the cue duration. They further show that the strength of conditioned behavior post learning is proportional to the cue duration, and not the above ratio. The overall findings here are interesting, provide context to many conflicting recent results on this topic, and are supported by reasonably strong evidence. Nevertheless, there are some major weaknesses in the evidence presented for some of the stronger claims in the manuscript.

      Strengths:

      This manuscript has many strengths including a rigorous experimental design, several different approaches to data analysis, careful consideration of prior literature, and a thorough introduction and discussion. The central claim-that animals track the rates of events in their environment, and that the ratio of two rates determine the rate of learning-is supported with solid evidence.

      Weaknesses:

      Despite the above major strengths, some key aspects of the paper need major improvement. These are listed below.

      (1) A key claim made here is that the same relationship (including the same parameter) describes data from pigeons by Gibbon and Balsam (1981) and the rats in this study. I think the evidence for this claim is weak as presented here. First, the exact measure used for identifying trials to criterion makes a big difference in Fig 3. As best as I understand, the authors do not make any claims about which of these approaches is the "best" way. Second, the measure used for identifying trials to criterion in Fig 1 appears different from any of the criteria used in Fig 3. If so, to make the claim that the quantitative relationship is one and the same in both datasets, the authors need to use the same measure of learning rate on both datasets and show that the resultant plots are statistically indistinguishable. Currently, the authors simply plot the dots from the current dataset on the plot in Fig 1 and ask the readers to notice the visual similarity. This is not at all enough to claim that both relationships are the same. In addition to the dependence of the numbers on the exact measure of learning rate used, the plots are in log-log axis. Slight visual changes can mean a big difference in actual numbers. For instance, between Fig 3 B and C, the highest information group moves up only "slightly" on the y-axis but the difference is a factor of 5. The authors need to perform much more rigorous quantification to make the strong claim that the quantitative relationships obtained here and in Gibbon and Balsam 1981 are identical.

      (2) Another interesting claim here is that the rates of responding during ITI and the cue are proportional to the corresponding reward rates with the same proportionality constant. This too requires more quantification and conceptual explanation. For quantification, it would be more convincing to calculate the regression slope for the ITI data and the cue data separately and then show that the corresponding slopes are not statistically distinguishable from each other. Conceptually, I am confused why the data used to the test the ITI proportionality come from the last 5 sessions. Specifically, if the model is that animals produce response rates during the ITI (a period with no possible rewards) based on the overall rate of rewards in the context, wouldn't it be better to test this before the cue learning has occurred? Before cue learning, the animals would presumably only have attributed rewards in the context to the context and thus, produce overall response rates in proportion to the contextual reward rate. After cue learning, the animals could technically know that the rate of rewards during ITI is zero. Why wouldn't it be better to test the plotted relationship for ITI before cue learning has occurred? Further, based on Fig 1, it seems that the overall ITI response rate reduces considerably with cue learning. What is the expected ITI response rate prior to learning based on the authors' conceptual model? Why does this rate differ pre and post cue learning? Finally, if the authors' conceptual framework predicts that ITI response rate after cue learning should be proportional to contextual reward rate, why should the cue response rate be proportional to cue reward rate instead of cue reward rate plus contextual reward rate?

      (3) I think there was a major conceptual disconnect between the gradual nature of learning shown in Figs 7 and 8 and the information theoretic model proposed by the authors. To the extent that I understand the model, the animals should simply learn the association once the evidence crosses a threshold (nDKL > threshold) and then produce behavior in proportion to the expected reward rate. If so, why should there be a gradual component of learning as shown in these figures? In terms of the proportional response rule to rate of rewards, why is it changing as animals go from 10% to 90% of peak response? I think the manuscript would be much strengthened if these results are explained within the authors' conceptual framework. If these results are not anticipated by the authors' conceptual framework, please do explicitly state this in the manuscript.

      (4) I find the idea stated in the Conclusion section that any model considering probability of reinforcement cannot be correct because it doesn't have temporal units to be weak. I think the authors might mean that existing models based on probability do not work and not that no possible model can work. For any point process, the standard mathematical treatment of continuous time is to compute the expected count of events as p*dt where p is the probability of occurrence of the event in that time bin and dt is an infinitesimal time bin. There is obviously a one-to-one mapping between probability of an event in a point process and its rate. Existing models use an arbitrary time bin/trial and thus, I get the authors' argument in the discussion. However, I think their conclusion is overstated.

      (5) The discussion states that the mutual information defined in equation 1 does not change during partial reinforcement. I am confused by this. The mean delay between reinforcements increases in inverse proportion to the probability of reinforcement, but doesn't the mean delay between cue and next reinforcement increase by more than this amount (next reinforcement is greater than or equal to the cue-to-cue interval away from the cue for many trials)? Why is this ratio invariant to partial reinforcement?

      Comments on revisions:

      Update following revision

      (1) This point is discussed in more detail in the attached file, but there are some important details regarding the identification of the learned trial that require more clarification. For instance, isn't the original criterion by Gibbon et al. (1977) the first "sequence of three out of four trials in a row with at least one response"? The authors' provided code for the Wilcoxon signed rank test and nDkl thresholds looks for a permanent exceeding of the threshold. So, I am not yet convinced that the approaches used here and in prior papers are directly comparable. Also, there's still no regression line fitted to their data (Fig 3's black line is from Fig 1, according to the legends). Accordingly, I think the claim in the second paragraph of the Discussion that the old data and their data are explained by a model with "essentially the same parameter value" is not yet convincing without actually reporting the parameters of the regression. Related to this, the regression for their data based on my analysis appears to have a slope closer to -0.6, which does not support strict timescale invariance. I think that this point should be discussed as a caveat in the manuscript.

      (2) The authors report in the response that the basis for the apparent gradual/multiple step-like increases after initial learning remains unclear within their framework. This would be important to point out in the actual manuscript. Further, the responses indicating the fact that there are some phenomena that are not captured by the current model would be important to state in the manuscript itself.

      (3) There are several mismatches between results shown in figures and those produced by the authors' code, or other supplementary files. As one example, rat 3 results in Fig 11 and Supplementary Materials don't match and neither version is reproduced by the authors' code. There are more concerns like this, which are detailed in the attached review file.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      A long-standing debate in the field of Pavlovian learning relates to the phenomenon of timescale invariance in learning i.e. that the rate at which an animal learns about a Pavlovian CS is driven by the relative rate of reinforcement of the cue (CS) to the background rate of reinforcement. In practice, if a CS is reinforced on every trial, then the rate of acquisition is determined by the relative duration of the CS (T) and the ITI (C = inter-US-interval = duration of CS + ITI), specifically the ratio of C/T. Therefore, the point of acquisition should be the same with a 10s CS and a 90s ITI (T = 10; C = 90 + 10 = 100, C/T = 100/10 = 10) and with a 100s CS and a 900s ITI (T = 100; C = 900 + 100 = 1000, C/T = 1000/100 = 10). That is to say, the rate of acquisition is invariant to the absolute timescale as long as this ratio is the same. This idea has many other consequences, but is also notably different from more popular prediction-error based associative learning models such as the Rescrola-Wagner model. The initial demonstrations that the ratio C/T predicts the point of acquisition across a wide range of parameters (both within and across multiple studies) was conducted in Pigeons using a Pavlovian autoshaping procedure. What has remained under contention is whether or not this relationship holds across species, particularly in the standard appetitive Pavlovian conditioning paradigms used in rodents. The results from rodent studies aimed at testing this have been mixed, and often the debate around the source of these inconsistent results focuses on the different statistical methods used to identify the point of acquisition for the highly variable trial-by-trial responses at the level of individual animals.<br /> The authors successfully replicate same effect found in pigeon autoshaping paradigms decades ago (with almost identical model parameters) in a standard Pavlovian appetitive paradigm in rats. They achieve this through a clever change the experimental design, using a convincingly wide range of parameters across 14 groups of rats, and by a thorough and meticulous analysis of these data. It is also interesting to note that the two author's have published on opposing sides of this debate for many years, and as a result have developed and refined many of the ideas in this manuscript through this process.

      Main findings

      (1) The present findings demonstrate that the point of initial acquisition of responding is predicted by the C/T ratio.

      (2) The terminal rates of responding to the CS appears to be related to the reinforcement rate of the CS (T; specifically, 1/T) but not its relation to the reinforcement rate of the context (i.e. C or C/T). In the present experiment, all CS trials were reinforced so it is also the case that the terminal rate of responding was related to the duration of the CS.

      (3) An unexpected finding was that responding during the ITI was similarly related to the rate of contextual reinforcement (1/C). This novel finding suggests that the terminal rate of responding during the ITI and the CS are related to their corresponding rates of reinforcement. This finding is surprising as it suggests that responding during the ITI is not being driven by the probability of reinforcement during the ITI.

      (4) Finally, the authors characterised the nature of increased responding from the point of initial acquisition until responding peaks at a maximum. Their analyses suggest that nature of this increase was best described as linear in the majority of rats, as opposed to the non-linear increase that might be predicted by prediction error learning models (e.g. Rescorla-Wagner). However, more detailed analyses revealed that these changes can be quite variable across rats, and more variable when the CS had lower informativeness (defined as C/T).

      Strengths and Weaknesses:

      There is an inherent paradox regarding the consistency of the acquisition data from Gibbon & Balsam's (1981) meta-analysis of autoshaping in pigeons, and the present results in magazine response frequency in rats. This consistency is remarkable and impressive, and is suggestive of a relatively conserved or similar underlying learning principle. However, the consistency is also surprising given some significant differences in how these experiments were run. Some of these differences might reasonably be expected to lead to differences in how these different species respond. For example:

      - The autoshaping procedure commonly used in the pigeons from these data were pretrained to retrieve rewards from a grain hopper with an instrumental contingency between head entry into the hopper and grain availability. During Pavlovian training, pecking the key light also elicited an auditory click feedback stimulus, and when the grain hopper was made available the hopper was also illuminated.

      - In the present experimental procedure, the rats were not given contextual exposure to the pellet reinforcers in the magazine (e.g. a magazine training session is typically found in similar rodent procedures). The Pavlovian CS was a cue light within the magazine itself.

      These design features in the present rodent experiment are clearly intentional. Pretraining with the reinforcer in the testing chambers would reasonably alter the background rate of reinforcement (parameter), so it make sense not to include this but differs from the paradigm used in pigeons. Having the CS inside the magazine where pellets are delivered provides an effective way to reduce any potential response competition between CS and US directed responding and combines these all into the same physical response. This makes the magazine approach response more like the pecking of the light stimulus in the pigeon autoshaping paradigm. However, the location of the CS and US is separated in pigeon autoshaping, raising questions about why the findings across species are consistent despite these differences.

      Intriguingly, when the insertion of a lever is used as a Pavlovian cue in rodent studies, CS directed responding (sign-tracking) often develops over training such that eventually all animals bias their responding towards the lever than towards the US (goal-tracking at the magazine). However, the nature of this shift highlights the important point that these CS and US directed responses can be quite distinct physically as well as psychologically. Therefore, by conflating the development of these different forms of responding, it is not clear whether the relationship between C/T and the acquisition of responding describes the sum of all Pavlovian responding or predominantly CS or US directed responding.

      Another interesting aspect of these findings is that there is a large amount of variability that scales inversely with C/T. A potential account of the source of this variability is related to the absence of preexposure to the reward pellets. This is normally done within the animals' homecage as a form of preexposure to reduce neophobia. If some rats take longer to notice and then approach and finally consume the reward pellets in the magazine, the impact of this would systematically differ depending on the length of the ITI. For animals presented with relatively short CSs and ITIs, they may essentially miss the first couple of trials and/or attribute uneaten pellets accumulating in the magazine to the background/contextual rate of reinforcement. What is not currently clear is whether this was accounted for in some way by confirming when the rats first started retrieving and consuming the rewards from the magazine.

      While the generality of these findings across species is impressive, the very specific set of parameters employed to generate these data raise questions about the generality of these findings across other standard Pavlovian conditioning parameters. While this is obviously beyond the scope of the present experiment, it is important to consider that the present study explored a situation with 100% reinforcement on every trial, with a variable duration CS (drawn form a uniform distribution), with a single relatively brief CS (maximum of 122s) CS and a single US. Again, the choice of these parameters in the present experiment is appropriate and very deliberately based on refinements from many previous studies from the authors. This includes a number of criteria used to define magazine response frequency that includes discarding specific responses (discussed and reasonably justified clearly in the methods section). Similarly, the finding that terminal rates of responding are reliably related to 1/T is surprising, and it is not clear whether this might be a property specific to this form of variable duration CS, the use of a uniform sampling distribution, or the use of only a single CS. However, it is important to keeps these limitations in mind when considering some of the claims made in the discussion section of this manuscript that go beyond what these data can support.

      The main finding demonstrating the consistent findings across species is presented in Figure 3. In the analysis of these data, it is not clear why the correlations between C, T, and C/T and the measure of acquisition in Figure 3A were presented as r values, whereas the r2 values were presented in the discussion of Figure 3B, and no values were provided in discussing Figure 3C. The measure of acquisition in Figure 3A is based on a previously established metric, whereas the measure in Figure 3B employs the relatively novel nDKL measure that is argued to be a better and theoretically based metric. Surprisingly, when r and r2 values are converted to the same metric across analyses, it appears that this new metric (Figure 3B) does well but not as well as the approach in Figure 3A. This raises questions about why a theoretically derived measure might not be performing as well on this analysis, and whether the more effective measure is either more reliable or tapping into some aspect of the processes that underlie acquisition that is not accounted for by the nDKL metric. Unfortunately, the new metric is discussed and defined at great length but its utility is not considered.<br /> An important analysis issue that is unclear in the present manuscript is exactly how the statistics were run (how the model was defined, were individual subjects or group medians used, what software was used etc...). For example, it is not clear whether the analyses conducted in relation to Figure 3 used the data from individual rats or the group medians. Similarly, it appears that each rat contributes four separate data points, and a single regression line was fit to all these data despite the highly likely violation of the assumption independent observations (or more precisely, the assumption of uncorrelated errors) in this analysis. Furthermore, it is claimed that the same regression line fit the IT and CS period data in this figure, however this<br /> If the data in figure 3 were analyzed with log(ITI) or log(C/ITI) i.e. log(C/(T-C)), would this be a better fit for these data? Is it the case that the ratio of C/T the best predictor of the trial/point of acquisition, or is it the case that another metric related to reinforcement rates provides a better fit?

      Based on the variables provided in Supplementary file 3, containing the acquisition data, I was unable to reproduce the values reported in the analysis of Figure 3.<br /> In relation to Figure 3: I am curious about whether the authors would be able to comment on whether the individual variability in trials to acquisition would be expected to scale differently based on C/T, or C, or (if a less restricted range was used) T?<br /> It is not clear why Figure 3C is presented but not analyzed, and why the data presented in Figure 4 to clarify the spread of the distribution of the data observed across the plots in Figure 3 uses the data from Figure 3C. This would seem like the least representative data to illustrate the point of Figure 4. It also appears to my eye that the data actually plotted in Figure 4 correspond to Figure 3A and 3B rather than the odds 10:1 data indicated in text.

      What was the decision criteria used to decide on averaging the final 5 conditioning sessions as terminal responding for the analyses in Figure 5? This is an oddly specific number. Was this based on consistency with previous work, or based on the greatest number of sessions where stable data for all animals could be extracted?<br /> In the analysis corresponding to Figures 7-8: If I understand the description of this analysis correctly, for each rat the data are the cumulative response data during the CS, starting from the trial on which responding to the CS > ITI (t = 1), and ending at the trial on which CS responding peaked (maximum over 3 session moving average window; t = end). This analysis does not seem to account for changes (decline) in the ITI response rates over this period of acquisition, and it is likely that responding during the ITI is still declining after t=1. Are the 4 functions that were fit to these data to discriminate between different underlying generative processes still appropriate on total CS responding instead of conditional CS responding after accounting for changes in baseline response rates during ITI?

      Page 27, Procedure, final sentence: The magazine responding during the ITI is defined as the 20s period immediately before CS onset. The range of ITI values (Table 1) always starts as low as 15s in all 14 groups. Even in the case of an ITI on a trial that was exactly 20s, this would also mean that the start of this period overlaps with the termination of the CS from the previous trial and delivery (and presumably consumption) of a pellet. Please indicate if the definition of the ITI period was modified on trials where the preceding ITI was <20s, and if any other criteria were used to define the ITI.

      Were the rats exposed to the reinforcers/pellets in their home cage prior to acquisition? Please indicate whether rats where pre-exposed to the reward pellets in their home cages e.g. as is often done to reduce neophobia. Given the deliberate absence of a magazine-training phase, this information is important when assessing the experienced contingency between the CS and the US.

      For all the analyses, please provide the exact models that were fit and the software used. For example, it is not necessarily clear to the reader (particularly in the absence of degrees of freedom) that the model fits discussed in Figure 3 are fit on the individual subject data points or the group medians. Similarly, in Figure 6 there is no indication of whether a single regression model was fit to all the plotted data or whether tests of different slopes for each of the conditions were compared. With regards to the statistics in Figure 6, depending on how this was run, it is also a potential problem that the analyses does not correct for the potentially highly correlated multiple measurements from the same subjects i.e. each rat provides 4 data points which are very likely not to be independent observations.

      A number of sections of the discussion are speculative or not directly supported by the present experimental data (but may well be supported by previous findings that are not the direct focus of the present experiment). For example, Page 19, Paragraph 2: this entire paragraph is not really clearly explained and is presenting an opinion rather than a strong conclusion that follows directly from the present findings. Evidence for an aspect of RET in the present paper (i.e. the prediction of time scale invariance on the initial point of acquisition, but not necessarily the findings regarding the rate of terminal acquisition) - while supportive - does not necessarily provide unconditional evidence for this theory over all the alternatives.

      Similarly, the Conclusion section (Page 23) makes the claim that "the equations have at most one free parameter", which may be an oversimplification that is conditionally true in the narrow context of the present experiment where many things were kept constant between groups and run in a particular way to ensure this is the case. While the equations do well in this narrow case, it is unlikely that additional parameters would not need to be added to account for more general learning situations. To clarify, I am not contending that this kind of statement is necessarily untrue, merely that it is being presented in a narrow context and may require a deeper discussion of much more of the literature to qualify/support properly - and the discussion section of the present experiment/manuscript may not be the appropriate place for this.

      - Consider taking advantage of an "Ideas and Speculation" subsection within the Discussion that is supported by eLife [ https://elifesciences.org/inside-elife/e3e52a93/elife-latest-including-ideas-and-speculation-in-elife-papers ]. This might be more appropriate to qualify the tone of much of the discussion from page 19 onwards.

      It seems like there are entire analyses and new figures being presented in the discussion e.g. Page 20: Information-Theoretic Contingency. These sections might be better placed in the methods section or a supplementary section/discussion.

    3. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      ANALYTICAL

      (1) A key claim made here is that the same relationship (including the same parameter) describes data from pigeons by Gibbon and Balsam (1981; Figure 1) and the rats in this study (Figure 3). The evidence for this claim, as presented here, is not as strong as it could be. This is because the measure used for identifying trials to criterion in Figure 1 appears to differ from any of the criteria used in Figure 3, and the exact measure used for identifying trials to criterion influences the interpretation of Figure 3***. To make the claim that the quantitative relationship is one and the same in the Gibbon-Balsam and present datasets, one would need to use the same measure of learning on both datasets and show that the resultant plots are statistically indistinguishable, rather than simply plotting the dots from both data sets and spotlighting their visual similarity. In terms of their visual characteristics, it is worth noting that the plots are in log-log axis and, as such, slight visual changes can mean a big difference in actual numbers. For instance, between Figure 3B and 3C, the highest information group moves up only "slightly" on the y-axis but the difference is a factor of 5 in the real numbers. Thus, in order to support the strong claim that the quantitative relationships obtained in the Gibbon-Balsam and present datasets are identical, a more rigorous approach is needed for the comparisons.

      ***The measure of acquisition in Figure 3A is based on a previously established metric, whereas the measure in Figure 3B employs the relatively novel nDKL measure that is argued to be a better and theoretically based metric. Surprisingly, when r and r2 values are converted to the same metric across analyses, it appears that this new metric (Figure 3B) does well but not as well as the approach in Figure 3A. This raises questions about why a theoretically derived measure might not be performing as well on this analysis, and whether the more effective measure is either more reliable or tapping into some aspect of the processes that underlie acquisition that is not accounted for by the nDKL metric.

      Figure 3 shows that the relationship between learning rate and informativeness for our rats was very similar to that shown with pigeons by Gibbon and Balsam (1981). We have used multiple criteria to establish the number of trials to learn in our data, with the goal of demonstrating that the correspondence between the data sets was robust. In the revised Figure 3, specifically 3C and 3D, we have plotted trials to acquisition using decision criterion equivalent to those used by Gibbon and Balsam. The criterion they used—at least one peck at the response key on at least 3 out of 4 consecutive trials—cannot be directly applied to our magazine entry data because rats make magazine entries during the inter-trial interval (whereas pigeons do not peck at the response key in the inter-trial interval). Therefore, evidence for conditioning in our paradigm must involve comparison between the response rate during CS and the baseline response rate, rather than just counting responses during the CS. We have used two approaches to adapt the Gibbon and Balsam criterion to our data. One approach, plotted in Figure 3C, uses a non-parametric signed rank test for evidence that the CS response rate exceeds the pre-CS response rate, and adopting a statistical criterion equivalent to Gibbon and Balsam’s 3-out-of-4 consecutive trials (p<.3125). The second method (Figure 3D) estimates the nDkl for the criterion used by Gibbon and Balsam and then applies this criterion to the nDkl for our data. To estimate the nDkl of Gibbon and Balsam’s data, we have assumed there are no responses in the inter-trial interval and the response probability during the CS must be at least 0.75 (their criterion of at least 3 responses out of 4 trials). The nDkl for this difference is 2.2 (odds ratio 27:1). We have then applied this criterion to the nDkl obtained from our data to identify when the distribution of CS response rates has diverged by an equivalent amount from the distribution of pre-CS response rates. These two analyses have been added to the manuscript to replace those previously shown in Figures 3B and 3C.

      (2) Another interesting claim here is that the rates of responding during ITI and the cue are proportional to the corresponding reward rates with the same proportionality constant. This too requires more quantification and conceptual explanation. For quantification, it would be more convincing to calculate the regression slope for the ITI data and the cue data separately and then show that the corresponding slopes are not statistically distinguishable from each other. Conceptually, it is not clear why the data used to test the ITI proportionality came from the last 5 conditioning sessions. What were the decision criteria used to decide on averaging the final 5 sessions as terminal responses for the analyses in Figure 5? Was this based on consistency with previous work, or based on the greatest number of sessions where stable data for all animals could be extracted?

      If the model is that animals produce response rates during the ITI (a period with no possible rewards) based on the overall rate of rewards in the context, wouldn't it be better to test this before the cue learning has occurred? Before cue learning, the animals would presumably only have attributed rewards in the context to the context and thus, produce overall response rates in proportion to the contextual reward rate. After cue learning, the animals could technically know that the rate of rewards during ITI is zero. Why wouldn't it be better to test the plotted relationship for ITI before cue learning has occurred? Further, based on Figure 1, it seems that the overall ITI response rate reduces considerably with cue learning. What is the expected ITI response rate prior to learning based on the authors' conceptual model? Why does this rate differ from pre and post-cue learning? Finally, if the authors' conceptual framework predicts that ITI response rate after cue learning should be proportional to contextual reward rate, why should the cue response rate be proportional to the cue reward rate instead of the cue reward rate plus the contextual reward rate?

      A single regression line, as shown in Figure 5, is the simplest possible model of the relationship between response rate and reinforcement rate and it explains approximately 80% of the variance in response rate. Fixing the log-log slope at 1 yields the maximally simple model. (This regression is done in the logarithmic domain to satisfy the homoscedasticity assumption.) When transformed into the linear domain, this model assumes a truly scalar relation (linear, intercept at the origin) and assumes the same scale factor and the same scalar variability in response rates for both sets of data (ITI and CS). Our plot supports such a model. Its simplicity is its own motivation (Occam’s razor).

      If separate regression lines are fitted to the CS and ITI data, there is a small increase in explained variance (R<sub>2</sub> = 0.82). These regression lines have been added to the plot in the revised manuscript (Figure 5). We leave it to further research to determine whether such a complex model, with 4 parameters, is required. However, we do not think the present data warrant comparing the simplest possible model, with one parameter, to any more complex model for the following reasons:

      · When a brain—or any other machine—maps an observed (input) rate to a rate it produces (output rate), there is always an implicit scalar. In the special case where the produced rate equals the observed rate, the implicit scalar has value 1. Thus, there cannot be a simpler model than the one we propose, which is, in and of itself, interesting.

      · The present case is an intuitively accessible example of why the MDL (Minimum Description Length) approach to model complexity (Barron, Rissanen, & Yu, 1998; Grünwald, Myung, & Pitt, 2005; Rissanen, 1999) can yield a very different conclusion from the conclusion reached using the Bayesian Information Criterion (BIC) approach. The MDL approach measures the complexity of a model when given N data specified with precision of B bits per datum by computing (or approximating) the sum of the maximum-likelihoods of the model’s fits to all possible sets of N data with B precision per datum. The greater the sum over the maximum likelihoods, the more complex the model, that is, the greater its measured wiggle room, it’s capacity to fit data. Recall that von Neuman remarked to Fermi that with 4 parameters he could fit an elephant. His deeper point was that multi-parameter models bring neither insight nor predictive power; they explain only post-hoc, after one has adjusted their parameters in the light of the data. For realistic data sets like ours, the sums of maximum likelihoods are finite but astronomical. However, just as the Sterling approximation allows one to work with astronomical factorials, it has proved possible to develop readily computable approximations to these sums, which can be used to take model complexity into account when comparing models. Proponents of the MDL approach point out that the BIC is inadequate because models with the same number of parameters can have very different amounts of wiggle room. A standard illustration of this point is the contrast between logarithmic model and power-function model. Log regressions must be concave; whereas power function regressions can be concave, linear, or convex—yet they have the same number of parameters (one or two, depending on whether one counts the scale parameter that is always implicit). The MDL approach captures this difference in complexity because it measures wiggle room; the BIC approach does not, because it only counts parameters.

      · In the present case, one is comparing a model with no pivot and no vertical displacement at the boundary between the black dots and the red dots (the 1-parameter unilinear model) to a bilinear model that allows both a change in slope and a vertical displacement for both lines. The 4-parameter model is superior if we use the BIC to take model complexity into account. However, 4-parameter has ludicrously more wiggle room. It will provide excellent fits—high maximum likelihood—to data sets in which the red points have slope > 1, slope 0, or slope < 0 and in which it is also true that the intercept for the red points lies well below or well above the black points (non-overlap in the marginal distribution of the red and black data). The 1-parameter model, on the other hand, will provide terrible fits to all such data (very low maximum likelihoods). Thus, we believe the BIC does not properly capture the immense actual difference in the complexity between the 1-parameter model (unilinear with slope 1) to the 4-parameter model (bilinear with neither the slope nor the intercept fixed in the linear domain).

      · In any event, because the pivot (change in slope between black and red data sets), if any, is small and likewise for the displacement (vertical change), it suffices for now to know that the variance captured by the 1-parameter model is only marginally improved by adding three more parameters. Researchers using the properly corrected measured rate of head poking to measure the rate of reinforcement a subject expects can therefore assume that they have an approximately scalar measure of the subject’s expectation. Given our data, they won’t be far wrong even near the extremes of the values commonly used for rates of reinforcement. That is a major advance in current thinking, with strong implications for formal models of associative learning. It implies that the performance function that maps from the neurobiological realization of the subject’s expectation is not an unknown function. On the contrary, it’s the simplest possible function, the scalar function. That is a powerful constraint on brain-behavior linkage hypotheses, such as the many hypothesized relations between mesolimbic dopamine activity and the expectation that drives responding in Pavlovian conditioning (Berridge, 2012; Jeong et al., 2022; Y.  Niv, Daw, Joel, & Dayan, 2007; Y. Niv & Schoenbaum, 2008).

      The data in Figures 4 and 5 are taken from the last 5 sessions of training. The exact number of sessions was somewhat arbitrary but was chosen to meet two goals: (1) to capture asymptotic responding, which is why we restricted this to the end of the training, and (2) to obtain a sufficiently large sample of data to estimate reliably each rat’s response rate. We have checked what the data look like using the last 10 sessions, and can confirm it makes very little difference to the results. We now note this in the revised manuscript. The data for terminal responding by all rats, averaged over both the last 5 sessions and last 10 sessions, can be downloaded from https://osf.io/vmwzr/

      Finally, as noted by the reviews, the relationship between the contextual rate of reinforcement and ITI responding should also be evident if we had measured context responding prior to introducing the CS. However, there was no period in our experiment when rats were given unsignalled reinforcement (such as is done during “magazine training” in some experiments). Therefore, we could not measure responding based on contextual conditioning prior to the introduction of the CS. This is a question for future experiments that use an extended period of magazine training or “poor positive” protocols in which there are reinforcements during the ITIs as well as during the CSs. The learning rate equation has been shown to predict reinforcements to acquisition in the poor-positive case (Balsam, Fairhurst, & Gallistel, 2006).

      (3) There is a disconnect between the gradual nature of learning shown in Figures 7 and 8 and the information-theoretic model proposed by the authors. To the extent that we understand the model, the animals should simply learn the association once the evidence crosses a threshold (nDKL > threshold) and then produce behavior in proportion to the expected reward rate. If so, why should there be a gradual component of learning as shown in these figures? In terms of the proportional response rule to the rate of rewards, why is it changing as animals go from 10% to 90% of peak response? The manuscript would be greatly strengthened if these results were explained within the authors' conceptual framework. If these results are not anticipated by the authors' conceptual framework, this should be explicitly stated in the manuscript.

      One of us (CRG) has earlier suggested that responding appears abruptly when the accumulated evidence that the CS reinforcement rate is greater than the contextual rate exceeds a decision threshold (C.R.  Gallistel, Balsam, & Fairhurst, 2004). The new more extensive data require a more nuanced view. Evidence about the manner in which responding changes over the course of training is to some extent dependent on the analytic method used to track those changes. We presented two different approaches. The approach shown in Figures 7 and 8 (now 6 and 7), extending on that developed by Harris (2022), assumes a monotonic increase in response rate and uses the slope of the cumulative response rate to identify when responding exceeds particular milestones (percentiles of the asymptotic response rate). This analysis suggests a steady rise in responding over trials. Within our theoretical model, this might reflect an increase in the animal’s certainty about the CS reinforcement rate with accumulated evidence from each trial. While this method should be able to distinguish between a gradual change and a single abrupt change in responding (Harris, 2022) it may not distinguish between a gradual change and multiple step-like changes in responding and cannot account for decreases in response rate.

      The other analytic method we used relies on the information theoretic measure of divergence, the nDkl (Gallistel & Latham, 2023), to identify each point of change (up or down) in the response record. With that method, we discern three trends. First, the onset tends to be abrupt in that the initial step up is often large (an increase in response rate by 50% or more of the difference between its initial value and its terminal value is common and there are instances where the initial step is to the terminal rate or higher). Second, there is marked within-subject variability in the response rate, characterized by large steps up and down in the parsed response rates following the initial step up, but this variability tends to decrease with further training (there tend to be fewer and smaller steps in both the ITI response rates and the CS response rate as training progresses). Third, the overall trend, seen most clearly when one averages across subjects within groups is to a moderately higher rate of responding later in training than after the initial rise. We think that the first tendency reflects an underlying decision process whose latency is controlled by diminishing uncertainty about the two reinforcement rates and hence about their ratio. We think that decreasing uncertainty about the true values of the estimated rates of reinforcement is also likely to be an important part of the explanation for the second tendency (decreasing within-subject variation in response rates). It is less clear whether diminishing uncertainty can explain the trend toward a somewhat greater difference in the two response rates as conditioning progresses. It is perhaps worth noting that the distribution of the estimates of the informativeness ratio is likely to be heavy tailed and have peculiar properties (as witness, for example, the distribution of the ratio of two gamma distributions with arbitrary shape and scale parameters) but we are unable at this time to propound an explanation of the third trend.

      (4) Page 27, Procedure, final sentence: The magazine responding during the ITI is defined as the 20 s period immediately before CS onset. The range of ITI values (Table 1) always starts as low as 15 s in all 14 groups. Even in the case of an ITI on a trial that was exactly 20 s, this would also mean that the start of this period overlaps with the termination of the CS from the previous trial and delivery (and presumably consumption) of a pellet. It should be indicated whether the definition of the ITI period was modified on trials where the preceding ITI was < 20 s, and if any other criteria were used to define the ITI. Were the rats exposed to the reinforcers/pellets in their home cage prior to acquisition?

      There was an error in the description provided in the original text. The pre-CS period used to measure the ITI responding was 10 s rather than 20 s. There was always at least a 5-s gap between the end of the previous trial and the start of the pre-CS period. The statement about the pre-CS measure has been corrected in the revised manuscript.

      (5) For all the analyses, the exact models that were fit and the software used should be provided. For example, it is not necessarily clear to the reader (particularly in the absence of degrees of freedom) that the model discussed in Figure 3 fits on the individual subject data points or the group medians. Similarly, in Figure 6 there is no indication of whether a single regression model was fit to all the plotted data or whether tests of different slopes for each of the conditions were compared. With regards to the statistics in Figure 6, depending on how this was run, it is also a potential problem that the analyses do not correct for the potentially highly correlated multiple measurements from the same subjects, i.e. each rat provides 4 data points which are very unlikely to be independent observations.

      Details about model fitting have been added to the revision. The question about fitting a single model or multiple models to the data in Figure 6 (now 5) is addressed in response 2 above. In Figure 5, each rat provides 2 behavioural data points (ITI response rate and CS response rate) and 2 values for reinforcement rate (1/C and 1/T). There is a weak but significant correlation between the ITI and CS response rates (r = 0.28, p < 0.01; log transformed to correct for heteroscedasticity). By design, there is no correlation between the log reinforcement rates (r = 0.06, p = .404).

      CONCEPTUAL

      (1) We take the point that where traditional theories (e.g., Rescorla-Wagner) and rate estimation theory (RET) both explain some phenomenon, the explanation in terms of RET may be preferred as it will be grounded in aspects of an animal's experience rather than a hypothetical construct. However, like traditional theories, RET does not explain a range of phenomena - notably, those that require some sort of expectancy/representation as part of their explanation. This being said, traditional theories have been incorporated within models that have the representational power to explain a broader array of phenomena, which makes me wonder: Can rate estimation be incorporated in models that have representational power; and, if so, what might this look like? Alternatively, do the authors intend to claim that expectancy and/or representation - which follow from probabilistic theories in the RW mould - are unnecessary for explanations of animal behaviour?***

      It is important for the field to realize that the RW model cannot be used to explain the results of Rescorla’s (Rescorla, 1966; Rescorla, 1968, 1969) contingency-not-pairing experiments, despite what was claimed by Rescorla and Wagner (Rescorla & Wagner, 1972; Wagner & Rescorla, 1972) and has subsequently been claimed in many modelling papers and in most textbooks and reviews (Dayan & Niv, 2008; Y. Niv & Montague, 2008). Rescorla programmed reinforcements with a Poisson process. The defining property of a Poisson process is its flat hazard function; the reinforcements were equally likely at every moment in time when the process was running. This makes it impossible to say when non-reinforcements occurred and, a fortiori, to count them. The non-reinforcements are causal events in RW algorithm and subsequent versions of it. Their effects on associative strength are essential to the explanations proffered by these models. Non-reinforcements—failures to occur, updates when reinforcement is set to 0, hence also the lambda parameter—can have causal efficacy only when the successes may be predicted to occur at specified times (during “trials”). When reinforcements are programmed by a Poisson process, there are no such times. Attempts to apply the RW formula to reinforcement learning soon foundered on this problem (Gibbon, 1981; Gibbon, Berryman, & Thompson, 1974; Hallam, Grahame, & Miller, 1992; L.J. Hammond, 1980; L. J. Hammond & Paynter, 1983; Scott & Platt, 1985). The enduring popularity of the delta-rule updating equation in reinforcement learning depends on “big-concept” papers that don’t fit models to real data and discretize time into states while claiming to be real-time models (Y. Niv, 2009; Y. Niv, Daw, & Dayan, 2005).

      The information-theoretic approach to associative learning, which sometimes historically travels as RET (rate estimation theory), is unabashedly and inescapably representational. It assumes a temporal map and arithmetic machinery capable in principle of implementing any implementable computation. In short, it assumes a Turing-complete brain. It assumes that whatever the material basis of memory may be, it must make sense to ask of it how many bits can be stored in a given volume of material. This question is seldom posed in associative models of learning, nor by neurobiologists committed to the hypothesis that the Hebbian synapse is the material basis of memory. Many—including the new Nobelist, Geoffrey Hinton— would agree that the question makes no sense. When you assume that brains learn by rewiring themselves rather than by acquiring and storing information, it makes no sense.

      When a subject learns a rate of reinforcement, it bases its behavior on that expectation, and it alters its behavior when that expectation is disappointed. Subjects also learn probabilities when they are defined. They base some aspects of their behavior on those expectations, making computationally sophisticated use of their representation of the uncertainties (Balci, Freestone, & Gallistel, 2009; Chan & Harris, 2019; J. A. Harris, 2019; J.A. Harris & Andrew, 2017; J. A. Harris & Bouton, 2020; J. A. Harris, Kwok, & Gottlieb, 2019; Kheifets, Freestone, & Gallistel, 2017; Kheifets & Gallistel, 2012; Mallea, Schulhof, Gallistel, & Balsam, 2024 in press).

      (2) The discussion of Rescorla's (1967) and Kamin's (1968) findings needs some elaboration. These findings are already taken to mean that the target CS in each design is not informative about the occurrence of the US - hence, learning about this CS fails. In the case of blocking, we also know that changes in the rate of reinforcement across the shift from stage 1 to stage 2 of the protocol can produce unblocking. Perhaps more interesting from a rate estimation perspective, unblocking can also be achieved in a protocol that maintains the rate of reinforcement while varying the sensory properties of the US (Wagner). How does rate estimation theory account for these findings and/or the demonstrations of trans-reinforcer blocking (Pearce-Ganesan)? Are there other ways that the rate estimation account can be distinguished from traditional explanations of blocking and contingency effects? If so, these would be worth citing in the discussion. More generally, if one is going to highlight seminal findings (such as those by Rescorla and Kamin) that can be explained by rate estimation, it would be appropriate to acknowledge findings that challenge the theory - even if only to note that the theory, in its present form, is not all-encompassing. For example, it appears to me that the theory should not predict one-trial overshadowing or the overtraining reversal effect - both of which are amenable to discussion in terms of rates.

      I assume that the signature characteristics of latent inhibition and extinction would also pose a challenge to rate estimation theory, just as they pose a challenge to Rescorla-Wagner and other probability-based theories. Is this correct?

      The seemingly contradictory evidence of unblocking and trans-reinforcer blocking by Wagner and by Pearce and Ganesan cited above will be hard for any theory to accommodate. It will likely depend on what features of the US are represented in the conditioned response.

      RET predicts one-trial overshadowing, as anyone may verify in a scientific programming language because it has no free parameters; hence, no wiggle room. Overtraining reversal effects appear to depend on aspects of the subjects’ experience other than the rate of reinforcement. It seems unlikely that it can proffer an explanation.

      Various information-theoretic calculations give pretty good quantitative fits to the relatively few parametric studies of extinction and the partial-reinforcement extinction effect (see Gallistel (2012, Figs 3 & 4); Wilkes & Gallistel (2016, Fig 6) and Gallistel (2025, under review, Fig 6). It has not been applied to latent inhibition, in part for want of parametric data. However, clearly one should not attribute a negative rate to a context in which the subject had never been reinforced. An explanation, if it exists, would have to turn on the effect of that long period on initial rate estimates AND on evidence of a change in rate, as of the first reinforcement.

      Recommendations for authors:

      MINOR POINTS

      (1) It is not clear why Figure 3C is presented but not analyzed, and why the data presented in Figure 4 to clarify the spread of the distribution of the data observed across the plots in Figure 3 uses the data from Figure 3C. This would seem like the least representative data to illustrate the point of Figure 4. It also appears that the data plotted in Figure 4 corresponds to Figure 3A and 3B rather than the odds 10:1 data indicated in the text.

      Figures 3 has changed as already described. The data previously plotted in Figure 4 are now shown in 3B and corresponds to that plotted in Figure 3A.

      (2) Log(T) was not correlated with trials to criterion. If trials to criterion is inversely proportional to log(C/T) and C is uncorrelated with T, shouldn't trials to criterion be correlated with log(T)? Is this merely a matter of low statistical power?

      Yes. There is a small, but statistically non-significant, correlation between log(T) and trials to criterion, r = 0.35, p = .22. That correlation drops to .08 (p = .8) after factoring out log(C/T), which demonstrates that the weak correlation between log(T) and trials to criterion is based on the correlation between log(t) and log(C/T).

      (3) The rationale for the removal of the high information condition samples in the Fig 8 "Slope" plot to be weak. Can the authors justify this choice better? If all data are included, the relationship is clearly different from that shown in the plot.

      We have now reported correlations that include those 3 groups but noted that the correlations are largely driven by the much lower slope values of those 3 groups which is likely an artefact of their smaller number of trials. We use this to justify a second set of correlations that excludes those 3 groups.

      (4) The discussion states that there is at most one free parameter constrained by the data - the constant of proportionality for response rate. However, there is also another free parameter constrained by data-the informativeness at which expected trials to acquisition is 1.

      I think this comment is referring to two different sets of data. The constant of proportionality of the response rate refers to the scalar relationship between reinforcement rate and terminal response rate shown in Figure 5. The other parameter, the informativeness when trials to acquisition equals 1, describes the intercept of the regression line in Figure 1 (and 3).

      (5) The authors state that the measurement of available information is not often clear. Given this, how is contingency measurable based on the authors' framework?

      (6) Based on the variables provided in Supplementary File 3, containing the acquisition data, we were unable to reproduce the values reported in the analysis of Figure 3.

      Figure 3 has changed, using new criteria for trials to acquisition that attempt to match the criterion used by Gibbon and Balsam. The data on which these figures are based has been uploaded into OSF.

      GRAPHICAL AND TYPOGRAPHICAL

      (1) Y-axis labels in Figure 1 are not appropriately placed. 0 is sitting next to 0.1. 0 should sit at the bottom of the y-axis.

      If this comment refers to the 0 sitting above an arrow in the top right corner of the plot, this is not misaligned. The arrow pointing to zero is used to indicate that this axis approaches zero in the upward direction. 0 should not be aligned to a value on the axis since a learning rate of zero would indicate an infinite number of learning trials. The caption has been edited to explain this more clearly.

      (2) Typo, Page 6, Final Paragraph, line 4. "Fourteen groups of rats were trained with for 42 session"

      Corrected. Thank you.

      (3) Figure 3 caption: Typo, should probably be "Number of trials to acquisition"?

      This change has now been made. The axis shows reinforcements to acquisition to be consistent with Gibbon and Balsam, but trials and number of reinforcements are identical in our 100% reinforcement schedule.

      (4) Typo Page 17 Line 1: "Important pieces evidence about".

      Correct. Thank you.

      (5) Consider consistent usage of symbols/terms throughout the manuscript (e.g. Page 22, final paragraph: "iota = 2" is used instead of the corresponding symbol that has been used throughout).

      Changed.

      (6) Typo Page 28, Paragraph 1, Line 9: "We used a one-sample t-test using to identify when this".

      This section of text has been changed to reflect the new analysis used for the data in Figure 3.

      (7) Typo Page 29, Paragraph 1, Line 2: "problematic in cases where one of both rates are undefined" either typo or unclear phrasing.

      “of” has been corrected to “or”

      (8) Typo Page 30: Equation 3 appears to have an error and is not consistent with the initial printing of Equation 3 in the manuscript.

      The typo in initial expression of Eq 3 (page 23) has been corrected.

      (9) Typo Page 33, Line 5: "Figures 12".

      Corrected.

      (10) Typo Page 34, Line 10: "and the 5 the increasingly"? Should this be "the 5 points that"?

      Corrected.

      (11) Typo Page 35, Paragraph 2: "estimate of the onset of conditioned is the trial after which".

      Corrected.

      (12) Clarify: Page 35, final paragraph: it is stated that four-panel figures are included for each subject in the Supplementary files, but each subject has a six-panel figure in the Supplementary file.

      The text now clarifies that the 4-panel figures are included within the 6-panel figures in the Supplementary materials.

      (13) It is hard to identify the different groups in Figure 2 (Plot 15).

      The figure is simply intended to show that responding across seconds within the trial is relatively flat for each group. Individuation of specific groups is not particularly important.

      (14) It appears that the numbering on the y-axis is misaligned in Figure 2 relative to the corresponding points on the scale (unless I have misunderstood these values and the response rate measure to the ITI can drop below 0?).

      The numbers on the Y axes had become misaligned. That has now been corrected.

      (15) Please include the data from Figure 3A in the spreadsheet supplementary file 3. If it has already been included as one of the columns of data, please consider a clearer/consistent description of the relevant column variable in Supplementary File 1.

      The data from Figure 3 are now available from the linked OSF site, referenced in the manuscript.

      (16) Errors in supplementary data spreadsheets such that the C/T values are not consistent with those provided in Table 1 (C/T values of 4.5, 54, 180, and 300 are slightly different values in these spreadsheets). A similar error/mismatch appears to have occurred in the C/T labels for Figures (e.g. Figure 10) and the individual supplementary figures.

      The C/T values on the figures in the supplementary materials have been corrected and are now consistent with those in Table 1.

      (17) Currently the analysis and code provided at https://osf.io/vmwzr/ are not accessible without requesting access from the author. Please consider making these openly available without requiring a request for authorization. As such, a number of recommendations made here may already have been addressed by the data and code deposited on OSF. Apologies for any redundant recommendations.

      Data and code are now available in at the OSF site which has been made public without requiring request.

      (18) Please consider a clearer and more specific reference to supplementary materials. Currently, the reader is required to search through 4 separate supplementary files to identify what is being discussed/referenced in the text (e.g. Page 18, final line: "see Supplementary Materials" could simply be "see Figure S1").

      We have added specific page numbers in references to the Supplementary Materials.

  3. www.planalto.gov.br www.planalto.gov.br
    1. Art. 1o-F.
      • ADI 5348
      • Órgão julgador: Tribunal Pleno
      • Relator(a): Min. CÁRMEN LÚCIA
      • Julgamento: 11/11/2019
      • Publicação: 28/11/2019

      Ementa

      AÇÃO DIRETA DE INCONSTITUCIONALIDADE. ART. 1º-F DA LEI N. 9.494/1997, ALTERADO PELA LEI N. 11.960/2009. ÍNDICE DE REMUNERAÇÃO DA CADERNETA DE POUPANÇA COMO CRITÉRIO DE CORREÇÃO MONETÁRIA EM CONDENAÇÕES DA FAZENDA PÚBLICA. INCONSTITUCIONALIDADE. - 1. Este Supremo Tribunal declarou inconstitucional o índice de remuneração da caderneta de poupança como critério de correção monetária em condenações judiciais da Fazenda Pública ao decidir o Recurso Extraordinário n. 870.947, com repercussão geral (Tema 810). - 2. Assentou-se que a norma do art. 1º-F da Lei n. 9.494/1997, pela qual se estabelece a aplicação dos índices oficiais de remuneração da caderneta de poupança para atualização monetária nas condenações da Fazenda Pública, configura restrição desproporcional ao direito fundamental de propriedade. - 3. Ação direta de inconstitucionalidade julgada procedente.


      DIREITO CONSTITUCIONAL. REGIME DE ATUALIZAÇÃO MONETÁRIA E JUROS MORATÓRIOS INCIDENTE SOBRE CONDENAÇÕES JUDICIAIS DA FAZENDA PÚBLICA. ART. 1º-F DA LEI Nº 9.494/97 COM A REDAÇÃO DADA PELA LEI Nº 11.960/09. IMPOSSIBILIDADE JURÍDICA DA UTILIZAÇÃO DO ÍNDICE DE REMUNERAÇÃO DA CADERNETA DE POUPANÇA COMO CRITÉRIO DE CORREÇÃO MONETÁRIA. VIOLAÇÃO AO DIREITO FUNDAMENTAL DE PROPRIEDADE (CRFB, ART. 5º, XXII). INADEQUAÇÃO MANIFESTA ENTRE MEIOS E FINS. INCONSTITUCIONALIDADE DA UTILIZAÇÃO DO RENDIMENTO DA CADERNETA DE POUPANÇA COMO ÍNDICE DEFINIDOR DOS JUROS MORATÓRIOS DE CONDENAÇÕES IMPOSTAS À FAZENDA PÚBLICA, QUANDO ORIUNDAS DE RELAÇÕES JURÍDICO-TRIBUTÁRIAS. DISCRIMINAÇÃO ARBITRÁRIA E VIOLAÇÃO À ISONOMIA ENTRE DEVEDOR PÚBLICO E DEVEDOR PRIVADO (CRFB, ART. 5º, CAPUT). RECURSO EXTRAORDINÁRIO PARCIALMENTE PROVIDO. - 1. O princípio constitucional da isonomia (CRFB, art. 5º, caput), no seu núcleo essencial, revela que o art. 1º-F da Lei nº 9.494/97, com a redação dada pela Lei nº 11.960/09, na parte em que disciplina os juros moratórios aplicáveis a condenações da Fazenda Pública, é inconstitucional ao incidir sobre débitos oriundos de relação jurídico-tributária, os quais devem observar os mesmos juros de mora pelos quais a Fazenda Pública remunera seu crédito; nas hipóteses de relação jurídica diversa da tributária, a fixação dos juros moratórios segundo o índice de remuneração da caderneta de poupança é constitucional, permanecendo hígido, nesta extensão, o disposto legal supramencionado. - 2. O direito fundamental de propriedade (CRFB, art. 5º, XXII) repugna o disposto no art. 1º-F da Lei nº 9.494/97, com a redação dada pela Lei nº 11.960/09, porquanto a atualização monetária das condenações impostas à Fazenda Pública segundo a remuneração oficial da caderneta de poupança não se qualifica como medida adequada a capturar a variação de preços da economia, sendo inidônea a promover os fins a que se destina. - 3. A correção monetária tem como escopo preservar o poder aquisitivo da moeda diante da sua desvalorização nominal provocada pela inflação. É que a moeda fiduciária, enquanto instrumento de troca, só tem valor na medida em que capaz de ser transformada em bens e serviços. A inflação, por representar o aumento persistente e generalizado do nível de preços, distorce, no tempo, a correspondência entre valores real e nominal (cf. MANKIW, N.G. Macroeconomia. Rio de Janeiro, LTC 2010, p. 94; DORNBUSH, R.; FISCHER, S. e STARTZ, R. Macroeconomia. São Paulo: McGraw-Hill do Brasil, 2009, p. 10; BLANCHARD, O. Macroeconomia. São Paulo: Prentice Hall, 2006, p. 29). - 4. A correção monetária e a inflação, posto fenômenos econômicos conexos, exigem, por imperativo de adequação lógica, que os instrumentos destinados a realizar a primeira sejam capazes de capturar a segunda, razão pela qual os índices de correção monetária devem consubstanciar autênticos índices de preços. - 5. Recurso extraordinário parcialmente provido.

      (RE 870.947, Tema 810, Relator(a): LUIZ FUX, Tribunal Pleno, julgado em 20-09-2017, ACÓRDÃO ELETRÔNICO REPERCUSSÃO GERAL - MÉRITO DJe-262 DIVULG 17-11-2017 PUBLIC 20-11-2017)


      EMENTA RECURSO EXTRAORDINÁRIO COM REPERCUSSÃO GERAL. TEMA N. 1.170. CONSTITUCIONAL E PROCESSUAL CIVIL. CONDENAÇÕES JUDICIAIS DA FAZENDA PÚBLICA. RELAÇÃO JURÍDICA NÃO TRIBUTÁRIA. TÍTULO EXECUTIVO. TRÂNSITO EM JULGADO. JUROS DE MORA. PARÂMETROS. ALTERAÇÃO. POSSIBILIDADE. ART. 1º-F DA LEI N. 9.494/1997, COM A REDAÇÃO DADA PELA DE N. 11.960/2009. OBSERVÂNCIA IMEDIATA. CONSTITUCIONALIDADE. RE 870.947. TEMA N. 810 DA REPERCUSSÃO GERAL. AUSÊNCIA DE OFENSA À COISA JULGADA. - 1. A Lei n. 11.960, de 29 de junho de 2009, alterou a de n. 9.494, de 10 de setembro de 1997, e deu nova redação ao art. 1º-F, o qual passou a prever que, nas condenações impostas à Fazenda Pública, para fins de atualização monetária, remuneração do capital e compensação da mora, incidirão, de uma só vez, até o efetivo pagamento, os índices oficiais de remuneração básica e de juros aplicados à caderneta de poupança. - 2. A respeito das condenações oriundas de relação jurídica não tributária, o Supremo Tribunal Federal, ao apreciar o RE 870.947 (Tema n. 810/RG), ministro Luiz Fux, declarou a constitucionalidade do art. 1º-F da Lei n. 9.494/1997, na redação dada pela de n. 11.960/2009, concernente à fixação de juros moratórios segundo o índice de remuneração da caderneta de poupança. - 3. O trânsito em julgado de sentença que tenha fixado percentual de juros moratórios não impede a observância de alteração legislativa futura, como no caso, em que se requer a aplicação da Lei n. 11.960/2009. - 4. Inexiste ofensa à coisa julgada, uma vez não desconstituído o título judicial exequendo, mas apenas aplicada legislação superveniente cujos efeitos imediatos alcançam situações jurídicas pendentes, em consonância com o princípio tempus regit actum. - 5. Recurso extraordinário provido, para reformar o acórdão recorrido, a fim de que seja aplicado o índice de juros moratórios estabelecido pelo art. 1º-F da Lei n. 9.494/1997, na redação dada pela de n. 11.960/2009. 6. Proposta de tese: “É aplicável às condenações da Fazenda Pública envolvendo relações jurídicas não tributárias o índice de juros moratórios estabelecido no art. 1º-F da Lei n. 9.494/1997, na redação dada pela Lei n. 11.960/2009, a partir da vigência da referida legislação, mesmo havendo previsão diversa em título executivo judicial transitado em julgado.

      (RE 1317982,Tema 1.170, Relator(a): NUNES MARQUES, Tribunal Pleno, julgado em 12-12-2023, PROCESSO ELETRÔNICO REPERCUSSÃO GERAL - MÉRITO DJe-s/n DIVULG 19-12-2023 PUBLIC 08-01-2024)

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Systemic and partial Tcf7l2 repression is effective in protecting cancer mice from cachexia-induced death. Hence, this is a promising treatment strategy for cancer patients suffering from cachexia.

      Strengths:

      The method is well-designed and clearly explained.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Abbreviations should be mentioned in full terms for the first time.

      (2) Relatively old or even very old references in the Introduction and Discussion.

      (3) The result section contains discussion with references, as well.

      (4) The number of mice in individual groups is relatively small (3 mice in some groups).

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors wanted to investigate how cells defend against intracellular pathogens, such as Shigella and Burkholderia species, that co-opt the host actin machinery to spread from cell-to-cell. Previous work has identified IFNg-inducible GTPase of the Guanylate Binding Protein (GBP) family in cytosolic defence against Gram-negative bacteria. By forming a coat around Shigella, human GBP1 suppresses actin-based motility by displacing IcsA, which is the actin-polymerising virulence factor present at bacterial poles. In addition, GBP1 recruits the cytosolic LPS-sensor, caspase-4, to the bacterial surface, which results in the removal of bacterial replicative niches via pyroptotic cell death. Here, they followed up their finding that GBP1 can reduce actin-based motility of Shigella in HeLa cells and, surprisingly, fails to do so during Burkholderia infection. In contrast, in T24 bladder epithelial cells, GBP1 is competent in blocking Burkholderia actin-tails. They therefore wanted to identify the GBP1-independent factor that blocks actin-based motility in IFNg-treated cells that is absent in HeLa cells.

      Major strengths and weaknesses of the methods and results:

      The authors report a second IFNg-dependent pathway involving the protein product of the gene GVIN1, which was previously thought to be a pseudogene. GVIN1 (GTPase, very large interferon inducible 1) is thus the first human member of this family of ~250 kDa putative GTPases to be demonstrated to be functional and have potential antimicrobial roles. The discovery that GVIN1 is indeed functional, forms coats on Burkholderia in an LPS O-antigen-dependent manner, and limits actin-dependent motility are the main strengths of this paper. The authors use CRISPR/Cas9-based knockouts in HeLa and T24 cells, and complement them to demonstrate that GBP1 and GVIN1 are both required to inhibit actin-based motility.

      An appraisal of whether the authors achieved their aims and whether the results support their conclusions:

      The authors achieved their main goals through well-planned experiments and unbiased screens. They succeeded in finding the factor that blocks actin-based motility independently of GBP1. This is driven by GVIN1, which coats bacteria and limits actin-tail formation by reducing the expression of BimA through currently unknown mechanisms. Further, they found that an O-antigen mutant can escape coating by GVIN1, indicating the requirement for these polysaccharides in GVIN1-dependent bacterial sensing. However, the authors have not investigated whether GVIN1, which has two GTPase-domains, does indeed have GTPase activity and whether GVIN1 and GBP1 together completely block cell-to-cell spread by Burkholderia and thereby restrict bacterial numbers over the infection time course. They also do not show whether GBP1 and GVIN1 target the same bacterial cell or different populations of bacteria.

      A discussion of the likely impact of the work on the field, and the utility of the methods and data to the community:

      This work uncovers the antimicrobial actions of a member of yet another family of IFNg-induced GTPases, which potentially acts against other intracellular pathogens. GVIN1 appears to operate independently and in parallel to GBP1, pointing to the breadth and complexity of the IFNg-inducible GTPase families.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript describes a novel magnetic steering technique to target human adipose derived mesenchymal stem cells (hAMSC) or induce pluripotent stem cells to the TM (iPSC-TM). The authors show that delivery of the stem cells lowered IOP, increased outflow facility, and increased TM cellularity.

      Strengths:

      The technique is novel and shows promise as a novel therapeutic to lower IOP in glaucoma. hAMSC are able to lower IOP below the baseline as well as increase outflow facility above baseline with no tumorigenicity. These data will have a positive impact on the field and will guide further research using hAMSC in glaucoma models.

      Weaknesses:

      The transgenic mouse model of glaucoma the authors used did not show ocular hypertensive phenotypes at 6-7 months of age as previously reported. Therefore, if there is no pathology in these animals the authors did not show a restoration of function, but rather a decrease in pressure below normal IOP.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s feedback and agree with the statement of weakness. Accordingly, we have revised the language to improve clarity. Specifically, all references to "restoration of IOP" or "restoration of conventional outflow function" have been replaced with more precise phrases, in the following locations: 

      • lines 2-3 (title): Magnetically steered cell therapy for reduction of intraocular pressure  as a treatment strategy for open-angle glaucoma

      • lines 36-8 (abstract): We observed a 4.5 [3.1, 6.0] mmHg or 27% reduction in intraocular pressure (IOP) for nine months after a single dose of only 1500 magnetically-steered hAMSCs, explained by increased conventional outflow facility and associated with higher TM cellularity.

      • lines 45-6 (one-sentence summary): A novel magnetic cell therapy provided effective intraocular pressure reduction in mice, motivating future translational studies.

      • lines 123-4 (introduction): Despite the absence of ocular hypertension in our MYOC<sup>Y437H</sup> mice, our data demonstrate sustained IOP lowering and a significant benefit of magnetic cell steering in the eye, particularly for hAMSCs, strongly indicating further translational potential.

      • line 207 (results): The observed reductions in IOP and increases in outflow facility after delivery of both cell types suggested functional changes in the conventional outflow pathway.

      • line 509-10 (discussion): In summary, this work shows the effectiveness of our novel magnetic TM cell therapy approach for long-term IOP reduction through functional changes in the conventional outflow pathway.

      It is very important to note that at the 23rd annual Trabecular Meshwork Study Club meeting (San Diego, December 2024), Dr. Zode, the lead author of reference 26 originally describing the transgenic myocilin mouse model, announced during his talk that this model no longer demonstrates the glaucomatous phenotype in his hands, which incidentally has motivated him to create a new, CRISPR MYOC mouse model. Dr. Zode also stated that he was uncertain of the reason for this loss of phenotype. His observation is consistent with our report. However, other investigators continue to observe the desired phenotype in their colonies of this mouse (Dr. Wei Zhu, personal communication). Continued use of this mouse model should therefore be approached with caution. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This observational study investigates the efficacy of intracameral injected human stem cells as a means to re-functionalize the trabecular meshwork for the restoration of intraocular pressure homeostasis. Using a murine model of glaucoma, human adiposederived mesenchymal stem cells are shown to be biologically safer and functionally superior at eliciting a sustained reduction in intraocular pressure (IOP). The authors conclude that the use of human adipose-derived mesenchymal stem cells has the potential for long-term treatment of ocular hypertension in glaucoma.

      Strengths:

      A noted strength is the use of a magnetic steering technique to direct injected stem cells to the iridocorneal angle. An additional strength is the comparison of efficacy between two distinct sources of stem cells: human adipose-derived mesenchymal vs. induced pluripotent cell derivatives. Utilizing both in vivo and ex vivo methodology coupled with histological evidence of introduced stem cell localization provides a consistent and compelling argument for a sustainable impact exogenous stem cells may have on the refunctionalization of a pathologically compromised TM.

      Weaknesses:

      A noted weakness of the study, as pointed out by the authors, includes the unanticipated failure of the genetic model to develop glaucoma-related pathology (elevated IOP, TM cell changes). While this is most unfortunate, it does temper the conclusion that exogenous human adipose derived mesenchymal stem cells may restore TM cell function. Given that TM cell function was not altered in their genetic model, it is difficult to say with any certainty that the introduced stem cells would be capable of restoring pathologically altered TM function. A restoration effect remains to be seen. 

      We acknowledge that the phrase “restoration of TM function” is not fully supported by our results, given the absence of ocular hypertension in our animal model. Accordingly, we have revised the language to more precisely describe our findings. For specific details regarding these changes, please refer to our response to Reviewer 1’s public comments above.

      Another noted complication to these findings is the observation that sham intracameralinjected saline control animals all showed elevated IOP and reduced outflow facility, compared to WT or Tg untreated animals, which allowed for more robust statistically significant outcomes. Additional comments/concerns that the authors may wish to address are elaborated in the Private Review section.

      We agree that sham-injected animals tended to have higher average IOPs than transgenic animals in our study. However, these differences did not reach statistical significance and therefore remain inconclusive. Further, an increase in IOP following placebo injection has been previously reported (Zhu et al., 2016). 

      Prompted by the Referee’s comments and also a private comment from Referee 1, we further investigated this effect by analyzing IOP in uninjected contralateral eyes at the mid-term time point and comparing the IOPs in these eyes to other cohorts, as now presented as additional data in Supplementary Tables 1 and 2 and Supplementary Figure 4 (see below). In brief, the uninjected contralateral transgenic eyes (10 months old) showed an IOP of 16.5 [15.9, 17.1] mmHg, which was intermediate between the IOP levels of the 6–7-month-old Tg group (15.4 [14.7, 16.1] mmHg) and the sham group (16.9 [15.5, 18.2] mmHg). However, none of these differences reached statistical significance. Additionally, we cannot rule out potential contralateral effects induced by the injections.

      Regarding the best way to assess the effect of cell treatment, we feel very strongly that the most relevant IOP comparison is between cell-injected eyes and control (vehicle)-injected eyes, since this provides the most direct accounting for the effects of injection itself on IOP. Other comparisons, such as WT or untreated Tg eyes vs. cell-treated eyes, are interesting but harder to interpret. However, in response to the referee’s comment, we have added comparisons between cell-treated groups and untreated Tg eyes to Table 2, adjusting the post-hoc corrections accordingly. All hAMSC treated groups show statistically significant decrease in IOP even compared to Tg untreated eyes, while iPSC-TMs fail to reach such significance.

      The following changes were made to the manuscript:

      Lines 326 et seq.: Eyes subjected to saline injection exhibited marginally higher IOPs and lower outflow facilities on average, in comparison to the transgenic animals at baseline. However, due to the lack of statistical significance in these differences and the inherent age difference between the saline-injected animals and the non-injected controls at baseline, no conclusive inference can be drawn regarding the effect of saline injection. To investigate this phenomenon further, we also analyzed IOPs in uninjected contralateral eyes at the midterm time point (Supplementary Tables 1 and 2, Supplementary Figure 4). The uninjected contralateral transgenic eyes (10 months old) showed an IOP of 16.5 [15.9, 17.1] mmHg, which was intermediate between the IOP levels of the 6–7-month-old Tg group (15.4 [14.7, 16.1] mmHg) and the sham-injected group (16.9 [15.5, 18.2] mmHg). However, none of these differences reached statistical significance. Of note, contralateral hypertension has been previously reported after subconjunctival and periocular injection of dexamethasoneloaded nanoparticles (34), and we similarly cannot definitively rule out potential contralateral effects induced by our stem cell injections. Thus, we cannot draw any definite conclusions from these additional IOP comparisons at this time.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The purpose of the current manuscript was to investigate a magnetic cell steering technique for efficiency and tissue-specific targeting, using two types of stem cells, in a mouse model of glaucoma. As the authors point out, trabecular meshwork (TM) cell therapy is an active area of research for treating elevated intraocular pressure as observed in glaucoma. Thus, further studies determining the ideal cell choice for TM cell therapy is warranted. The experimental protocol of the manuscript involved the injection of either human adipose derived mesenchymal stem cells (hAMSCs) or induced pluripotent cell derivatives (iPSC-TM cells) into a previously reported mouse glaucoma model, the transgenic MYOCY437H mice and wild-type littermates followed by the magnetic cell steering. Numerous outcome measures were assessed and quantified including IOP, outflow facility, TM cellularity, retention of stem cells, and the inner wall BM of Schlemm's canal.

      Strengths:

      All of these analyses were carefully carried out and appropriate statistical methods were employed. The study has clearly shown that the hAMSCs are the cells of choice over the iPSC-TM cells, the latter of which caused tumors in the anterior chamber. The hAMSCs were shown to be retained in the anterior segment over time and this resulted in increased cellular density in the TM region and a reduction in IOP and outflow facility. These are all interesting findings and there is substantial data to support it.

      Weaknesses:

      However, where the study falls short is in the MYOCY437H mouse model of glaucoma that was employed. The authors clearly state that a major limitation of the study is that this model, in their hands, did not exhibit glaucomatous features as previously reported, such as a significant increase in IOP, which was part of the overall purpose of the study. The authors state that it is possible that "the transgene was silenced in the original breeders". The authors did not show PCR, western blot, or immuno of angle tissue of the tg to determine transgenic expression (increased expression of MYOC was shown in the angle tissue of the transgenics in the original paper by Zode et al, 2011). This should be investigated given that these mice were rederived. Thus, it is clearly possible that these are not transgenic mice.

      All MYOC mice that were used in this study were genotyped and confirmed to carry the transgene as noted in the original version of the paper (see lines 590-2). However, the transgene seems not to have been active, based on the lack of ocular hypertension as well as the lack of differences in supporting endpoints such as outflow facility and TM cellularity. While it would have been possible to carry out their recommended assays to investigate the root cause of this loss of phenotype this was not an objective of our study. Thus we instead here focus simply on communicating the observed loss of phenotype to readers. We also refer the referee to the final paragraph of our response to Referee 1. 

      If indeed they are transgenics, the authors may want to consider the fact that in the Zode paper, the most significant IOP elevation in the mutant mice was observed at night and thus this could be examined by the authors. 

      This is a good point. However, while the dark-phase IOP does exhibit a distinctly larger elevation (as previously observed in hypertonic saline sclerosis), Zode et al. also reported a notable 3 mmHg IOP increase during the light phase. The complete absence of such daytime (light phase) IOP elevation in our animals diminished our enthusiasm for pursuing darkphase IOP measurements. 

      Other glaucomatous features of these mice could also have been investigated such as loss of RGCs, to further determine their transgenic phenotype. 

      We agree that these other phenotypes could be studied, but in the absence of any detectable IOP elevation (and thus lack of mechanical insult on RGC axons), loss of RGC is extremely unlikely. We also note that the loss of retinal ganglion cells (RGCs) in the Myocilin model remains a subject of controversy. For example, despite a significant increase in IOP (>10 mmHg) in this model across four mouse strains, three, including C57BL6/J, did not exhibit any signs of optic nerve damage (McDowell et al., 2012). In contrast, Zhu et al. observed considerable nerve damage in this model, which was reversed following iPSC-TM cell transplantation (Zhu et al., 2016). Given these conflicting findings, we directed our efforts toward outcome measures directly related to aqueous humor dynamics.

      Finally, while increased cellular density in the TM region was observed, proliferative markers could be employed to determine if the transplanted cells are proliferating.

      We agree that identifying the source of the increased trabecular meshwork (TM) cellularity we observed is interesting and we plan to pursue that in future studies. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The sham-injected transgenic animals showed elevated IOP 3-4 weeks after the baseline measurements in the transgenic mice. The authors justify this may be due to the increase in age in these animals. However, this seems unlikely due to the short duration of time between measurement of the baseline IOP and the Short time point (3-4 weeks). The authors do not provide IOP data for any WT sham injected eyes or naïve Tg eyes at these time points. These data are essential to determine if the elevation is due to the sham injection, age, or the transgene. Could it be that the IOP in this cohort of Tg mice didn't increase until 7-8 months of age instead of 6-7 months of age? The methods state only unilateral injections of the stem cells were done so it is assumed the contralateral eye was uninjected. What was the IOP in these eyes? These data would clarify the confusion in the data from sham-injected animals compared to baseline (naive) measurements.

      We agree that the average IOP in saline-injected groups is higher than in WT or non-treated Tg mice, although the difference is inconclusive due to a lack of statistical significance. It is important to note, however, that this difference is subtle and not comparable to the 3 mmHg light-phase IOP elevation previously observed in this model (Zode et al., 2011). 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to include IOP data from the contralateral uninjected eyes, and we have now provided this information along with the comparative statistics in the supplementary materials. Additional details can be found in our response to a similar comment from Reviewer 2’s public review. In summary, the IOP difference in contralateral non-injected ten-month-old transgenic eyes was even smaller than in the original Tg group. IOP elevation following saline injection in mice has been reported previously (Zhu et al., 2016). As a potential confounding factor, we highlight possible contralateral effects of the injection itself (which is why we initially did not analyze IOP in the contralateral eyes).

      The hAMSC-treated eyes appear to lower IOP even from baseline (although stats were only provided compared to the sham-injected eyes, which as stated above appear to have increased).

      However, the iPSC-TM-treated eyes had IOPs equal to that of the baseline measurements taken 3 weeks prior. The significance is coming from the "sham-treated" eyes which had elevated IOPs. The controls listed above should be included to make these conclusions.

      The reviewer makes an astute observation. Please refer to our response to a similar observation by Reviewer 2 under public reviews, where we provide and discuss the comparative statistics noted by the reviewer. However, we feel very strongly that the most relevant IOP comparison is between cell-injected eyes and control-injected eyes. 

      If the transgenic mouse model truly did not have a phenotype, then the authors are testing the ability of the stem cells to lower IOP from baseline normal pressures. Therefore, the authors are not "restoring function of the conventional outflow pathway" as there is no damage to begin with. The language in the manuscript should be corrected to reflect this if the transgenics have no phenotype.

      We agree and have adjusted the language accordingly. For further details, please refer to our response to your public review.

      The authors noted in the iPSC-TM-treated eyes there was a high rate of tumorigenicity. If the magnetic steering of these cells is specific and targeted to the TM, why do the tumors form near the central iris?

      While magnetic steering is more specific to the trabecular meshwork (TM) than previouslyused approaches (Bahrani Fard et al., 2023), it is not perfect, and a modest amount of offtarget delivery to the iris, including its central portion, still occurs. Apparently, it took only a few mis-directed iPSC-TM cells to lead to tumors in this work, which is a serious concern for future translational approaches. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) It appears that mice were injected unilaterally (Line 590). I may have missed this, but was the companion un-injected eye analyzed in this study? If not analyzed, was there a confounding concern or limitation that necessitated omitting this possible control option?

      Contralateral effects, such as hypertension in the untreated eye after subconjunctival and periocular injection of dexamethasone-loaded nanoparticles, have previously been reported in the literature (Li et al., 2019) and also reported anecdotally by other leaders in the field to the senior authors, which is why we did not initially analyze contralateral eyes in this study. However, prompted by this comment and others, we have now included the IOP measurements for contralateral uninjected ten-month-old transgenic eyes in the supplementary materials. For further details, please refer to our response to your public review.

      (2) Were all these mice the same gender? Would gender be expected to alter the findings of this study?

      Animals of both sexes were randomly chosen and included in the study. We added the following statement to the Materials and Methods section (line 530): After breeding and genotyping, mice, regardless of sex, were maintained to age 6-7 months, when transgenic animals were expected to have developed a POAG phenotype.

      (3) As noted in the public review, the use of PBS for a control seems to have resulted in a slight elevation in IOP (Figure 2) as well as a reduction in outflow facility (Figure 3B) when compared to WT or Tg mice. Was this difference statistically significant? 

      The differences between the sham (saline)-injected groups at any time point and untreated Tg mice did not reach statistical significance for IOP, facility, or TM cellularity and for facility, did not even show clear trends. For example, WT mice had, on average, 0.2 mmHg higher IOP and 0.6 nl/min/mmHg greater facility than the Tg group. Meanwhile on a similar scale, the long-term sham group exhibited 0.4 nl/min/mmHg higher facility compared to the Tg group. As the statistical tests indicate, these differences should be interpreted more as noise than meaningful signal. 

      If so, then it should be noted as to whether the observed decrease in IOP following stem cell injection remained statistically significant when compared to these un-injected control animals. If significance was lost, then this should be appropriately noted and discussed. It is not apparently obvious why sham controls should have elevated IOP. This is a design and statistical concern.

      Please refer to our response to a similar observation by Reviewer 1. We believe that comparing the treatment (cell suspension in saline) with its age-matched vehicle (saline) is the appropriate approach which maintains rigor by most directly accounting for the effects of injection. 

      (4) The tonicity of the PBS used as a vehicle control was not stated and I did not see within the methods whether the stem cells were suspended using this same PBS vehicle. I assume isotonic phosphate buffered saline was used and that the stem cells were resuspended using the same sterile PBS. 

      Thanks for catching this. We added “sterile PBS (1X, Thermo Fisher Scientific, Waltham, MA)” to the Methods section of the manuscript (line 567). 

      With regards to using PBS as an injection control, I wonder if a better comparable control might have been to use mesenchymal stem cells that were rendered incapable of proliferating prior to intracameral injection. This, of course, addresses the unexplained mechanism(s) by which mesenchymal stem cells elicit a decrease in IOP.

      This is an interesting idea, and represents another level of control. However, we explicitly chose not to use non-proliferating hAMSCs as a control, for several reasons. Firstly, a saline injection is the simplest control and in this initial study with multiple groups, we did not feel another experimental group should be added. Second, this control would not rule out paracrine effects from injected cells, which our data suggested are an important effect. Third, rendering injected cells truly non-proliferative could introduce unwanted/unknown phenotypes in these cells that would need to be carefully characterized. That being said, if an efficient method could be developed to render an entire population of these cells irreversibly non-proliferating, the reviewer’s suggestion would be worth pursuing to better understand the mechanism of TM cell therapies. 

      (5) As noted in Figure 4C, TM cellular density as quantified was not altered in the sham control, so a loss of cellular density can not explain the elevated IOP with this group. Injecting viable (not determined?) mesenchymal stem cells did show, over the short term, a noted increase in TM cellular density. 

      Thank you for noting this. We agree that changes in cell density do not explain the mild IOP elevation in the sham group. As the referee certainly is aware, there are multiple reasons that IOP can be elevated (changes in trabecular meshwork extracellular matrix, changes in trabecular meshwork stiffness) that are not necessarily related to cell density.  Since we do not know definitively the cause of this mild elevation, we would prefer to not speculate about it in the manuscript. 

      Thanks for pointing out our omission of a statement about injected cell viability. We have now included the following statement in the Materials and Methods section (564-566): “For all the experiments where animals received hAMSC, cell count and >90% viability was verified using a Countess II Automated Cell Counter (Thermo Fisher Scientific, Waltham, MA).”

      I'm confused, as clearly stated (Lines 431-432), mesenchymal stem cells accumulated close to, but not within, the TM. How is it that TM cellular density increased if these stem cells did not enter the TM? The authors may wish to clarify this distinction. Given that mesenchymal stem cells did not increase the risk of tumorigenicity, do the authors have any evidence that these cells actually proliferated post-injection or did they undergo senesce thereby displaying senescence-associated secretory phenotype as a source of paracrine support?

      As the reviewer correctly noted, our observations show that hAMSCs primarily accumulated close to, but outside, the TM (likely caught up in the pectinate ligaments). Based on observations of increased TM cellularity, we think that the most likely explanation of these findings is paracrine signaling, as the reviewer suggests and which was discussed at length in the original version of the manuscript (lines 453-477). 

      We agree that, despite observing little signal from hAMSCs within the TM, labeling with proliferation markers (e.g., Ki-67) and searching for co-localization with exogenous cells, and/or labeling for senescence markers would have provided more mechanistic information. This is an excellent topic for future study, which we plan to pursue, but was outside the scope of this study. 

      (6) As noted in the public review, I think it is a bit of a stretch to even suggest that the findings of this study support stem cell restoration of TM function given that the model apparently did not produce TM cell dysfunction as anticipated. A restoration effect remains to be seen.

      We agree and have adjusted the language accordingly. For further details, please refer to our response to Reviewer 1’s public comment.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Show PCR, western blot, or immuno of angle tissue of the MYOC tg to confirm transgenic expression.

      (2) Examine the IOP of mice at night.

      (3) Investigate other glaucomatous features in the mice to determine if they have any of the transgenic phenotypes previously reported.

      (4) Examine proliferative markers in the TM region of angles injected with stem cells.

      Please see our responses to all four of these comments in the public section.

      Bibliography (for this response letter only)

      Bahrani Fard, M.R., Chan, J., Sanchez Rodriguez, G., Yonk, M., Kuturu, S.R., Read, A.T., Emelianov, S.Y., Kuehn, M.H., Ethier, C.R., 2023. Improved magnetic delivery of cells to the trabecular meshwork in mice. Exp. Eye Res. 234, 109602. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.exer.2023.109602

      Li, G., Lee, C., Agrahari, V., Wang, K., Navarro, I., Sherwood, J.M., Crews, K., Farsiu, S., Gonzalez, P., Lin, C.-W., Mitra, A.K., Ethier, C.R., Stamer, W.D., 2019. In vivo measurement of trabecular meshwork stiffness in a corticosteroid-induced ocular hypertensive mouse model. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U. S. A. 116, 1714–1722.

      https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1814889116

      Zhu, W., Gramlich, O.W., Laboissonniere, L., Jain, A., Sheffield, V.C., Trimarchi, J.M., Tucker, B.A., Kuehn, M.H., 2016. Transplantation of iPSC-derived TM cells rescues glaucoma phenotypes in vivo. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. 113, E3492–E3500.

      Zode, G.S., Kuehn, M.H., Nishimura, D.Y., Searby, C.C., Mohan, K., Grozdanic, S.D., Bugge, K., Anderson, M.G., Clark, A.F., Stone, E.M., Sheffield, V.C., 2011. Reduction of ER stress via a chemical chaperone prevents disease phenotypes in a mouse model of primary open angle glaucoma. J. Clin. Invest. 121, 3542–3553. https://doi.org/10.1172/JCI58183

    1. Örsted hat das derzeit weltweit größte Windenergieprojekt Harnz-ZV unterbrochen. Die Pause stellt die Realisierung des britischen Ziels, Bis 2030 50 Gigawatt Strom durch Auf Schrahr, Windenergie Windenergie zu produzieren in Frage. Der Windpark Hornzzi vor hätte alleine oder soll alleine 2400 Megawatt Strom produzieren. Für die Unterbrechung wurden vor allem kostengründelverantwortlich gemacht. In den USA wurden von der Trump-Administration mehrere Windenergieprojekte aus Tanz gestorpt.

      https://www.connaissancedesenergies.org/afp/eolien-offshore-le-geant-orsted-met-en-pause-lexpansion-du-plus-grand-parc-du-monde-250507?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=fil-info-energies&utm_campaign=/newsletter/cde-aujourdhui-7-mai-2025&sstc=u36579nl166 571

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      The authors attempted to replicate previous work showing that counterconditioning leads to more persistent reduction of threat responses, relative to extinction. They also aimed to examine the neural mechanisms underlying counterconditioning and extinction. They achieved both of these aims and were able to provide some additional information, such as how counterconditioning impacts memory consolidation. Having a better understanding of which neural networks are engaged during counterconditioning may provide novel pharmacological targets to aid in therapies for traumatic memories. It will be interesting to follow up by examining the impact of varying amounts of time between acquisition and counterconditioning phases, to enhance replicability to real-world therapeutic settings.

      Major strengths

      · This paper is very well written and attempts to comprehensively assess multiple aspects of counterconditioning and extinction processes. For instance, the addition of memory retrieval tests is not core to the primary hypotheses but provides additional mechanistic information on how episodic memory is impacted by counterconditioning. This methodical approach is commonly seen in animal literature, but less so in human studies.

      · The Group x Cs-type x Phase repeated measure statistical tests with 'differentials' as outcome variables are quite complex, however, the authors have generally done a good job of teasing out significant F test findings with post hoc tests and presenting the data well visually. It is reassuring that there is a convergence between self-report data on arousal and valence and the pupil dilation response. Skin conductance is a notoriously challenging modality, so it is not too concerning that this was placed in the supplementary materials. Neural responses also occurred in logical regions with regard to reward learning.

      · Strong methodology with regards to neuroimaging analysis, and physiological measures.

      ·The authors are very clear on documenting where there were discrepancies from their pre-registration and providing valid rationales for why.

      We thank reviewer 1 for the positive feedback and for pointing out the strengths of our work. We agree that future research should investigate varying times between acquisition and counterconditioning to assess its success in real-life applications.

      Major Weaknesses

      (1) The statistics showing that counterconditioning prevents differential spontaneous recovery are the weakest p values of the paper (and using one-tailed tests, although this is valid due to directions being pre-hypothesized). This may be due to a relatively small number of participants and some variability in responses. It is difficult to see how many people were included in the final PDR and neuroimaging analyses, with exclusions not clearly documented. Based on Figure 3, there are relatively small numbers in the PDR analyses (n=14 and n=12 in counterconditioning and extinction, respectively). Of these, each group had 4 people with differential PDR results in the opposing direction to the group mean. This perhaps warrants mention as the reported effects may not hold in a subgroup of individuals, which could have clinical implications.

      General exclusion criteria are described on page 17. We have added more detailed information on the reasons for exclusion (see page 17). All exclusions were in line with pre-registered criteria. For the analysis, the reviewer is referring to (PDR analysis that investigated whether CC can prevent the spontaneous recovery of differential conditioned threat responses), 18 participants were excluded from this analysis: 2 participants did not show evidence for successful threat acquisition as was already indicated on page 17, and 16 participants were excluded due to (partially) missing data. We now explicitly mention the exclusion of the additional 16 participants on page 7 and have updated Figure 3 to improve visibility of the individual data points. Therefore, for this analysis both experimental groups consisted of 15 participants (total N=30).

      It is true that in both groups a few participants show the opposite pattern. Although this may also be due to measurement error, we agree that it is relevant to further investigate this in future studies with larger sample sizes. It will be crucial to identify who will respond to treatments based on the principles of standard extinction or counterconditioning. We have added this point in the discussion on page 14.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary:

      The present study sets out to examine the impact of counterconditioning (CC) and extinction on conditioned threat responses in humans, particularly looking at neural mechanisms involved in threat memory suppression. By combining behavioral, physiological, and neuroimaging (fMRI) data, the authors aim to provide a clear picture of how CC might engage unique neural circuits and coding dynamics, potentially offering a more robust reduction in threat responses compared to traditional extinction.

      Strengths:

      One major strength of this work lies in its thoughtful and unique design - integrating subjective, physiological, and neuroimaging measures to capture the various aspects of counterconditioning (CC) in humans. Additionally, the study is centered on a well-motivated hypothesis and the findings have the potential to improve the current understanding of pathways associated with emotional and cognitive control. The data presentation is systematic, and the results on behavioral and physiological measures fit well with the hypothesized outcomes. The neuroimaging results also provide strong support for distinct neural mechanisms underlying CC versus extinction.

      We thank reviewer 2 for the feedback and for valuing the thoughtfulness that went into designing the study.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Overall, this study is a well-conducted and thought-provoking investigation into counterconditioning, with strong potential to advance our understanding of threat modulation mechanisms. Two main weaknesses concern the scope and decisions regarding analysis choices. First, while the findings are solid, the topic of counterconditioning is relatively niche and may have limited appeal to a broader audience. Expanding the discussion to connect counterconditioning more explicitly to widely studied frameworks in emotional regulation or cognitive control would enhance the paper's accessibility and relevance to a wider range of readers. This broader framing could also underscore the generalizability and broader significance of the results. In addition, detailed steps in the statistical procedures and analysis parameters seem to be missing. This makes it challenging for readers to interpret the results in light of potential limitations given the data modality and/or analysis choices.

      In this updated version of the manuscript, we included the notion that extinction has been interpreted as a form of implicit emotion regulation. In addition to our discussion on active coping (avoidance), we believe that our discussion has an important link to the more general framework of emotion regulation, while remaining within the scope of relevance. Please see pages 14 and 15 for the changes. In addition to being informative to theories of emotion regulation, our findings are also highly relevant for forms of psychotherapy that build on principles of counterconditioning (e.g. the use of positive reinforcement in cognitive behavioral therapy), as we point out in the introduction. We believe this relevance shows that counterconditioning is more than a niche topic. In line with the recommendation from reviewer 2, we added more details and explanations to the statistical procedures and analyses where needed (see responses to recommendations).

      Reviewer #3:

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Wirz et al use neuroimaging (fMRI) to show that counterconditioning produces a longer lasting reduction in fear conditioning relative to extinction and appears to rely on the nucleus accumbens rather than the ventromedial prefrontal cortex. These important findings are supported by convincing evidence and will be of interest to researchers across multiple subfields, including neuroscientists, cognitive theory researchers, and clinicians.

      In large part, the authors achieved their aims of giving a qualitative assessment of the behavioural mechanisms of counterconditioning versus extinction, as well as investigating the brain mechanisms. The results support their conclusions and give interesting insights into the psychological and neurobiological mechanisms of the processes that underlie the unlearning, or counteracting, of threat conditioning.

      Strengths:

      · Mostly clearly written with interesting psychological insights

      · Excellent behavioural design, well-controlled and tests for a number of different psychological phenomena (e.g. extinction, recovery, reinstatement, etc).

      · Very interesting results regarding the neural mechanisms of each process.

      · Good acknowledgement of the limitations of the study.

      We thank reviewer 3 for the detailed feedback and suggestions.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) I think the acquisition data belongs in the main figure, so the reader can discern whether or not there are directional differences prior to CC and extinction training that could account for the differences observed. This is particularly important for the valence data which appears to differ at baseline (supplemental figure 2C).

      Since our design is quite complex with a lot of results, we left the fear acquisition results as a successful manipulation check in the Supplementary Information to not overload the reader with information that is not the main focus of this manuscript. If the editor would like us to add the figure to the main text, we are happy to do so. During fear acquisition, both experimental groups showed comparable differential conditioned threat responses as measured by PDRs and SCRs. Subjective valence ratings indeed differed depending on CS category. Importantly, however, the groups only differed with respect to their rating to the CS- category, but not the CS+ category, which suggests that the strength of the acquired fear is similar between the groups. To make sure that these baseline differences cannot account for the differences in valence after CC/Ext, we ran an additional group comparison with differential valence ratings after fear acquisition added as a covariate. Results show that despite the baseline difference, the group difference in valence after CC/Ext is still significant (main effect Group: F<sub>(1,43)</sub>=7.364, p=0.010, η<sup>2</sup>=0.146). We have added this analysis to the manuscript (see page 7).

      (2) I was confused in several sections about the chronology of what was done and when. For instance, it appears that individuals went through re-extinction, but this is just called extinction in places.

      We understand that the complexity of the design may require a clearer description. We therefore made some changes throughout the manuscript to improve understanding. Figure 1 is very helpful in understanding the design and we therefore refer to that figure more regularly (see pages 6-7). We also added the time between tasks where appropriate (e.g. see page 7). Re-extinction after reinstatement was indeed mentioned once in the manuscript. Given that the reinstatement procedure was not successful (see page 9), we could not investigate re-extinction and it is therefore indeed not relevant to explicitly mention and may cause confusion. We therefore removed it (see page 12).

      (3) I was also confused about the data in Figure 3. It appears that the CC group maintained differential pupil dilation during CC, whereas extinction participants didn't, and the authors suggest that this is indicative of the anticipation of reward. Do reward-associated cues typically cause pupil dilation? Is this a general arousal response? If so, does this mean that the CSs become equally arousing over time for the CC group whereas the opposite occurs for the extinction group (i.e. Figure 3, bottom graphs)? It is then further confusing as to why the CC group lose differential responding on the spontaneous recovery test. I'm not sure this was adequately addressed.

      Indeed, reward and reward anticipation also evoke an increase in pupil dilation. This was an important reason for including a separate valence-specific response characterization task. Independently from the conditioning task, this task revealed that both threat and reward-anticipation induced strong arousal-related PDRs and SCRs. This was also reflected in the explicit arousal ratings, which were stronger for both the shock-reinforced (negative valence) and reward-reinforced (positive valence) stimuli. Therefore, it is not surprising that reward anticipation leads to stronger PDRs for CS+ (which predict reward) compared to CS- stimuli (which do not predict reward) during CC, but is reduced during extinction due to a decrease in shock anticipation. During the spontaneous recovery test, a return of stronger PDRs for CS+ compared to CS- stimuli in the standard extinction group can only reflect a return of shock anticipation. Importantly, the CC group received no rewards during the spontaneous recovery task and was aware of this, so it is to be expected that the effect is weakened in the CC group. However, CS+ and CS- items were still rated of similar valence and PDRs did not differ between CS+ and CS- items in the CC group, whereas the Ext group rated the CS+ significantly more negative and threat responses to the CS+ did return. It therefore is reasonable to conclude that associating the CS+ with reward helps to prevent a return of threat responses. We have added some clarifications and conclusions to this section on page 8.

      (4) I am not sure that the memories tested were truly episodic

      In line with previous publications from Dunsmoor et al.[1-4], our task allows for the investigation of memory for elements of a specific episode. In the example of our task, retrieval of a picture probes retrieval of the specific episode, in which the picture was presented. In contrast, fear retrieval relies on the retrieval of the category-threat association, which does not rely on retrieval of these specific episodic elements, but could be semantic in nature, as retrieval takes place at a conceptual level. We have added a small note on what we mean with episodic in this context on page 4. We do agree that we cannot investigate other aspects of episodic memories here, such as context, as this was not manipulated in this experiment.

      (5) Twice as many female participants than males

      It is indeed unfortunate that there is no equal distribution between female and male participants. Investigating sex differences was not the goal of this study, but we do hope that future studies with the appropriate sample sizes are able to investigate this specifically. We have added this to the limitations of this study on page 17.

      (6) No explanation as to why shocks were varied in intensity and how (pseudo-randomly?)

      The shock determination procedure is explained on pages 18-19 (Peripheral stimulation). As is common in fear conditioning studies in humans (see references), an ascending staircase procedure was used. The goal of this procedure is to try and equalize the subjective experience of the electrical shocks to be “maximally uncomfortable but not painful”.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1:

      Very well written. No additional comments

      We thank reviewer 1 for valuing our original manuscript version. To further improve the manuscript, we adapted the current version based on the reviewer’s public review (see response to reviewer #1 public review comment 1).

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) I feel that more justification/explanation is needed on why other regions highly relevant to different aspects of counterconditioning (e.g., threat, memory, reward processing) were not included in the analyses.

      We first performed whole-brain analyses to get a general idea of the different neural mechanisms of CC compared to Ext. Clusters revealing significant group differences were then further investigated by means of preregistered ROI analyses. We included regions that have previously been shown to be most relevant for affective processing/threat responding (amygdala), memory (hippocampus), reward processing (NAcc) and regular extinction (vmPFC). We restricted our analyses to these most relevant ROIs as preregistered to prevent inflated or false-positive findings[5]. Beyond these preregistered ROIs, we applied appropriate whole-brain FEW corrections. The activated regions are listed in Supplementary Table 1 and include additional regions that were expected, such as the ACC and insula.

      (2) Were there observed differences across participants in the experiment? Any information on variance in the data such as how individual differences might influence these findings would provide a richer understanding of counterconditioning and increase the depth of interpretation for a broad readership.

      We agree that investigating individual differences is crucial to gain a better understanding of treatment efficacy in the framework of personalized medicine. Specifically, future research should aim to identify factors that help predict which treatment will be most effective for a particular patient. The results of this study provide a good basis for this, as we could show that the vmPFC in contrast to regular extinction, is not required in CC to improve the retention of safety memory. Therefore, this provides a viable option for patients who are not responding to treatments that rely on the vmPFC. In addition, as noted by Reviewer 1, in both groups a few participants show the opposite pattern (see Figure 3). It will be crucial to identify who will respond to treatments based on the principles of standard extinction or counterconditioning. We have added this point in the discussion on page 14.

      (3) While most figures are informative and clear, Figure 3 would benefit from detailed axis labels and a more descriptive caption. Currently, it is challenging to navigate the results presented to support the findings related to differential PDRs. A supplementary figure consolidating key patterns across conditions might also further facilitate understanding of this rather complicated result.

      We have made some changes to the figure to improve readability and understanding. Specifically, we changed the figure caption to “Change from last 2 trials CC/Ext to first 2 trials Spontaneous recovery test”, to give more details on what exactly is shown here. We also simplified the x-axis labels to “counterconditioning”, “recovery test” and “extinction”. With the addition of a clearer figure description, we hope to have improved understanding and do not think that another supplemental figure is needed.

      (4) Additional details on the statistical tests are needed. For example, please clarify whether p-values reported were corrected across all experimental conditions. Also, it would be helpful for the authors to discuss why for example repeated measures ANOVA or mixed-effects conditions were not used in this study. Might those tests not capture variance across participants' PDRs and SCRs over time better?

      We added that significant interactions were followed by Bonferroni-adjusted post-hoc tests where applicable (see page 21). We have used repeated measures ANOVAs to capture early versus late phases of acquisition and CC/extinction, as well as to compare late CC/extinction (last 2 trials) compared to early spontaneous recovery (first 2 trials) as is often done in the literature. A trial-level factor in a small sample would cost too many degrees of freedom and is not expected to provide more information. We have added this information and our reasoning to the methods section on page 21.

      Reviewer #3:

      (1) Suggest putting acquisition data into the main figures. In fact many of the supplemental figures could be integrated into the main figures in my opinion.

      See response to reviewer #3 public review comment 1.

      (2) Include explanations for why shock intensity was varied

      See response to reviewer #3 public review comment 6.

      (3) Include a better explanation for the change in differential responding from training to spontaneous recovery in the CC group (I think the loss of such responding in extinction makes more sense and is supported by the notion of spontaneous recovery, but I'm not sure about the loss in the CC group. There is some evidence from the rodent literature - which I am most familiar with - regarding a loss in contextual gradient across time which could account for some loss in specificity, could it be something like this?).

      See response to reviewer #3 public review comment 3.

      If we understand the reviewer correctly in that the we see a loss of differential responding due to a generalization to the CS-, this would imply an increase in responding to the CS-, which is not what we see. Our data should therefore be correctly interpreted as a loss of the specific response to the CS+ from the CC phase to the recovery test. Therefore, there is no spontaneous recovery in the CC group, and also not a non-specific recovery. To clarify this we relabeled Figure 3 by indicating “recovery test” instead of “spontaneous recovery”.

      (4) Is there a possibility that baseline differences, particularly that in Supplemental Figure 2C, could account for later differences? If differences persist after some transformation (e.g. percentage of baseline responding) this would be convincing to suggest that it doesn't.

      See response to reviewer #3 public review comment 1.

      (5) As I mentioned, I got confused by the chronology as I read through. Maybe mention early on when reporting the spontaneous recovery results that testing occurred the next day and that participants were undergoing re-extinction when talking about it for the second time.

      See response to reviewer #3 public review comment 2.

      (6) Page 8 - I was confused as to why it is surprising that the CC group were more aroused than the extinction group, the latter have not had CSs paired with anything with any valence, so doesn't this make sense? Or perhaps I am misunderstanding the results - here in text the authors refer back to Figure 2B, but I'm not sure if this is showing data from the spontaneous recovery test or from CC/extinction. If it is the latter, as the caption suggests, why are the authors referring to it here?

      Participants in the CC group showed increased differential self-reported arousal after CC, whereas arousal ratings did not differ between CS+ and CS- items after extinction. We interpret this in line with the valence and PDR results as an indication of reward-induced arousal. At the start of the next day, however, participants from the CC and extinction groups gave comparable ratings. It may therefore be surprising why participants in the CC group do not still show stronger ratings since nothing happened between these two ratings besides a night’s sleep (see design overview in Figure 1A). We removed the “suprisingly” to prevent any confusion.

      (7) I suggest that the authors comment on whether there were any gender differences in their results.

      See response to reviewer #3 public review comment 5.

      (8) The study makes several claims about episodic memory, but how can the authors be sure that the memories they are tapping into are episodic? Episodic has a very specific meaning - a biographical, contextually-based memory, whereas the information being encoded here could be semantic. Perhaps a bit of clarification around this issue could be helpful.

      See response to reviewer #3 public review comment 4.

      References

      (1) Dunsmoor, J. E. & Kroes, M. C. W. Episodic memory and Pavlovian conditioning: ships passing in the night. Curr Opin Behav Sci 26, 32-39 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cobeha.2018.09.019

      (2) Dunsmoor, J. E. et al. Event segmentation protects emotional memories from competing experiences encoded close in time. Nature Human Behaviour 2, 291-299 (2018). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-018-0317-4

      (3) Dunsmoor, J. E., Murty, V. P., Clewett, D., Phelps, E. A. & Davachi, L. Tag and capture: how salient experiences target and rescue nearby events in memory. Trends Cogn Sci 26, 782-795 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tics.2022.06.009

      (4) Dunsmoor, J. E., Murty, V. P., Davachi, L. & Phelps, E. A. Emotional learning selectively and retroactively strengthens memories for related events. Nature 520, 345-348 (2015). https://doi.org/10.1038/nature14106

      (5) Gentili, C., Cecchetti, L., Handjaras, G., Lettieri, G. & Cristea, I. A. The case for preregistering all region of interest (ROI) analyses in neuroimaging research. Eur J Neurosci 53, 357-361 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1111/ejn.14954

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Audio et al. present an interesting study examining cerebral blood volume (CBV) across cortical areas and layers in non-human primates (NHPs) using high-resolution MRI. While with contrast agents are frequently employed to improve fMRI sensitivity in NHP research, its application for characterizing baseline CBV distribution is less common. This study quantifies large-vessel distribution as well as regional and laminar CBV variations, comparing them with other metrics.

      Strengths:

      (1) Noninvasive mapping of relative cerebral blood volume is novel for non-human primates.<br /> (2) A key finding was the observation of variations in CBV across regions; primary sensory cortices had high CBV, whereas other higher areas had low CBV.<br /> (3) The measured relative CBV values correlated with previously reported neuronal and receptor densities, potentially providing valuable physiological insights.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) A weakness of this manuscript is that the quantification of CBV with postprocessing approaches to remove susceptibility effects from pial and penetrating vessels is not fully validated, especially on a laminar scale.<br /> (2) High-resolution MRI with a critical sampling frequency estimated from previous studies (Weber 2008, Zheng 1991) was performed to separate penetrating vessels. However, this approach depends on multiple factors, including spatial resolution, contrast agent dosage, and data processing methods. This raises concerns about the generalizability of these findings to other experimental setups or populations.<br /> (3) Baseline R2* is sensitive to baseline R2, vascular volume, iron content, and susceptibility gradients. Additionally, it is sensitive to imaging parameters; higher spatial resolution tends to result in lower R2* values (closer to the R2 value). Although baseline R2* correlates with several physiological parameters, drawing direct physiological inferences from it remains challenging.<br /> (4) CBV-weighted deltaR2*, which depends on both CBV and contrast agent dose, correlates with various metrics (cytoarchitectural parcellation, myelin/receptor density, cortical thickness, CO, cell-type specificity, etc.). While such correlations may be useful for exploratory analyses, all comparisons depend on measurement accuracy. A fundamental question remains whether CBV-weighted ΔR2* can provide reliable and biologically meaningful insights into these metrics, particularly in diseased or abnormal brain states.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      eLife Assessment

      This study provides useful findings about the effects of heterozygosity for Trio variants linked to neurodevelopmental and psychiatric disorders in mice. However, the strength of the evidence is limited and incomplete mainly because the experimental flow is difficult to follow, raising concerns about the conclusions' robustness. Clearer connections between variables, such as sex, age, behavior, brain regions, and synaptic measures, and more methodological detail on breeding strategies, test timelines, electrophysiology, and analysis, are needed to support their claims.

      We appreciate the opportunity to address the constructive feedback provided by eLife and the reviewers. Below, we respond to the overall assessment and individual reviewers' comments, clarifying our experimental approach, addressing concerns, and providing additional details where necessary.

      We thank the editors for highlighting the significance of our findings regarding the effects of Trio variant heterozygosity in mice. We acknowledge the feedback concerning the experimental flow and agree that clarity is paramount. To address these concerns:

      (1) Connections between variables: The word limit of the initial submission constrained our ability to provide adequate details and connections between variables. We have revised the manuscript to explicitly outline and extend explanations and the relationships between sex, age, behavior, brain regions, and synaptic measures, ensuring that the rationale for each experiment and its relevance to the overall conclusions are improved.

      (2) Methodological details: The Methods section of our initial submission was condensed, with key details provided in the Supplemental Methods section. We have merged all into an extended section to improve clarity. We have expanded our description of breeding strategies, test timelines, electrophysiological protocols, and data analysis methods in the revised Methods section. We believe the additions have enhanced the transparency and reproducibility of our study and ensured full support of our conclusions.

      (3) Experimental flow: We have revised and extended our results, methods, and discussion sections to clarify the rationale and experimental design to guide readers through the experimental sequence and rationale.

      We are confident these revisions address the concerns raised and enhance the robustness and coherence of our findings.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study explores how heterozygosity for specific neurodevelopmental disorder-associated Trio variants affects mouse behavior, brain structure, and synaptic function, revealing distinct impacts on motor, social, and cognitive behaviors linked to clinical phenotypes. Findings demonstrate that Trio variants yield unique changes in synaptic plasticity and glutamate release, highlighting Trio's critical role in presynaptic function and the importance of examining variant heterozygosity in vivo.

      Strengths:

      This study generated multiple mouse lines to model each Trio variant, reflecting point mutations observed in human patients with developmental disorders. The authors employed various approaches to evaluate the resulting behavioral, neuronal morphology, synaptic function, and proteomic phenotypes.

      Weaknesses:

      While the authors present extensive results, the flow of experiments is challenging to follow, raising concerns about the strength of the experimental conclusions. Additionally, the connection between sex, age, behavioral data, brain regions, synaptic transmission, and plasticity lacks clarity, making it difficult to understand the rationale behind each experiment. Clearer explanations of the purpose and connections between experiments are recommended. Furthermore, the methodology requires more detail, particularly regarding mouse breeding strategies, timelines for behavioral tests, electrophysiology conditions, and data analysis procedures.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s recognition of the novelty and comprehensiveness of our approach, particularly the generation of multiple mouse lines and our efforts to model Trio variant effects in vivo.

      Weaknesses

      (1) Experimental flow and rationale and connection between variables: We have expanded on the connections between behavioral data, neuronal morphology, synaptic function, and proteomics in the Results and Discussion sections to clarify how each experiment informs the reasoning and the conclusions and to highlight the relationships between sex, age, behavior, and synaptic measures.

      (2) Methodological details: Our initial Methods section was formatted to be short to fulfill word limits on the submitted version, with additional details provided in the Supplemental Methods section. We have merged our Methods and Supplemental Methods sections and expanded on our breeding strategies, test timelines, electrophysiological protocols, and data analysis. We believe these additions enhance the transparency and reproducibility of our study.

      (3) Recommendations for the authors: We thank Reviewer #1 for providing several recommendations to improve our manuscript. We have addressed their comments in the revision, as detailed below, adding key experiments that bolster our findings.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors generated three mouse lines harboring ASD, Schizophrenia, and Bipolar-associated variants in the TRIO gene. Anatomical, behavioral, physiological, and biochemical assays were deployed to compare and contrast the impact of these mutations in these animals. In this undertaking, the authors sought to identify and characterize the cellular and molecular mechanisms responsible for ASD, Schizophrenia, and Bipolar disorder development.

      Strengths:

      The establishment of TRIO dysfunction in the development of ASD, Schizophrenia, and Bipolar disorder is very recent and of great interest. Disorder-specific variants have been identified in the TRIO gene, and this study is the first to compare and contrast the impact of these variants in vivo in preclinical models. The impact of these mutations was carefully examined using an impressive host of methods. The authors achieved their goal of identifying behavioral, physiological, and molecular alterations that are disorder/variant specific. The impact of this work is extremely high given the growing appreciation of TRIO dysfunction in a large number of brain-related disorders. This work is very interesting in that it begins to identify the unique and subtle ways brain function is altered in ASD, Schizophrenia, and Bipolar disorder.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Most assays were performed in older animals and perhaps only capture alterations that result from homeostatic changes resulting from prodromal pathology that may look very different.

      (2) Identification of upregulated (potentially compensating) genes in response to these disorder-specific Trio variants is extremely interesting. However, a functional demonstration of compensation is not provided.

      (3) There are instances where data is not shown in the manuscript. See "data not shown". All data collected should be provided even if significant differences are not observed.

      I consider weaknesses 1 and 2 minor. While they would be very interesting to explore, these experiments might be more appropriate for a follow-up study. I would recommend that the missing data in 3 should be provided in the supplemental material.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s recognition of our study’s significance and methodological rigor. The acknowledgment of Trio dysfunction as a novel and impactful area of research is deeply appreciated.

      Weaknesses:

      We agree that focusing on older animals limits insights into early-stage pathophysiology. However, our goal in this study was to examine the functional impacts of Trio heterozygosity at an adolescent stage and to reveal the ultimate impact of these alleles on synaptic function. Our choice of age aligns with our objectives. Future studies of earlier developmental stages will be beneficial and complement these findings.

      Functional compensation:

      We tested functional compensation through rescue experiments in +/K1431M brain slices using a Rac1-specific inhibitor, NSC23766, which prevents Rac1 activation by Trio or Tiam1. Our finding that direct Rac1 inhibition normalizes deficient neurotransmitter release in +/K1431M mice strongly suggests that increased Rac1 activity drives this phenotype.

      Data not shown:

      We will incorporate all previously shown data into the Supplemental Materials, even when results are nonsignificant. We agree that this ensures full transparency and facilitates a more comprehensive evaluation of our findings.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) In Figure 1K-N, the lack of observed differences in +/M2145T mice across all tests raises questions about its validity as a BPD model. Furthermore, the differences in female behavior data compared to males, as shown in the Supplemental section, lack clarification-specifically, whether these variations are due to sex differences or sample size disparities, which is not discussed. Additionally, it's unclear if the same mice were used in tests K through L-N, as the reported numbers differ without explanation; if relevant, any mortality should be reported. Given the observed body weight differences, it is important to display locomotor data, despite the mention of no change in open field results. Lastly, a detailed breeding strategy and timeline for behavioral testing would enhance clarity.

      We thank Reviewer 1 for recognizing these confusing points in our behavioral data and seek to add clarification in our Revision as below:

      (a) We have revised the text to emphasize our goal to evaluate the impact of NDD-related Trio alleles that have discrete and measurable effects on brain development and function, and not to model specific NDDs (e.g. ASD, SCZ, or BPD). The three specific Trio mutations were chosen based on strong evidence of these mutations impairing the biochemical functions of Trio. We reasoned our approach would reveal how impairing Trio in different ways – i.e. altering protein level or GEF1/GEF2 function – and under genetic conditions (heterozygosity) that mimic those found in individuals with Trio-related disorders impacts brain development and function. The lack of behavioral phenotypes in +/M2145T mice is indeed intriguing, especially given the alterations in electrophysiology and biochemistry experiments. It remains possible that further behavioral analyses of these mice will reveal behavioral phenotypes.

      (b) Given that the prevalence and clinical presentation of individuals with various NDDs are influenced by sex, it is possible that the behavioral differences we see in male versus female Trio variant mice reflect human sex difference phenotypes. We have reorganized the Figure panels to clarify these sex differences in behaviors (new Fig. 2, Supp. Fig. 2). We focused on the most significant behavioral phenotypes shared by both sexes in the main text, or in males alone, as our anatomical and electrophysiological experiments were restricted to males to reduce variation due to estrus. The observed behavioral sex differences are not likely due to sample size disparities as power analyses were performed for all experimental results to ensure adequate sample size. A comprehensive study of the mechanisms underlying these behavioral findings merits examination but is outside the scope of this study.

      (c) All mice were subjected to all behavioral tests described. No sudden mortality was observed during the behavioral experiments. Outliers in post-hoc statistical analyses were removed, which explains the apparent sample size differences between behavioral tests. We have revised the Data analysis section in our Methods to include these details (Lines 216-289, 450-457).

      (d) Results of the open field test have been added to the Supplemental Data (new Supp. Fig. 2) and Results (Lines 532-537)

      (e) The Methods section was expanded to include more detail on the breeding strategy (Lines 98-106). A timeline for behavioral testing has also been included in the Figures to enhance clarity (new Fig. 2A).

      (2) In Figure 2A-E, head width and brain weight showed significant differences, but not body weight, how come the ratio does not change? Comparing with female results in Supplementary Figure 2A-E, it does show a difference between males and females. It is essential to clarify which sex authors use in all follow-up experiments, including synapse, transmission, and plasticity. Since the males and females have different phenotypes, why do the authors focus on males only? The E plot has no data points on the bar graph. In Figure 2I, it lacks example images for all four conditions.

      We greatly appreciate this Reviewer’s attention to details in our brain and body weight data and revised the manuscript to address these concerns.

      (a) The ratios of head width/body weight were calculated for each individual mouse. Hence the distribution of the ratio data (old Fig. 2D; new Fig. 3D) differs from the distribution of head width or body weight data alone (old Fig. 2A, 2C, resp.; now Fig. 3A, 3C), and therefore can affect the p-value for statistical significance. The body weight of +/M2145T males is 21.217 ±0.327 g, while for WT males is 21.745 ±0.224 g, a non-significant decrease of 0.528 g (adjusted p=0.3806). These values have been added to the Fig 3. figure legend (Lines 1020-1034) for clarity.

      (b) Similar to the behavioral experiments in comment (1), we observed sex differences in head width, brain weight, and body weight in Trio heterozygous variant mice compared to WT counterparts. The differences in the ratios of head width/body weight or brain weight/body weight were the same for both males and females (i.e. head width/body weight ratio is decreased in +/K1431M mice compared to WT regardless of sex, and brain weight/body weight ratio is decreased in both +/K1431M and +/K1918X mice compared to WT regardless of sex). These findings affirm the impact of Trio mutations on these phenotypes across both sexes. We have modified the text to draw more attention to this key point (Lines 554-566 and 777-801).

      (c) All experiments (excluding behavior and weight data) were performed in males only to minimize the variation in spine and synapse morphology and physiological activity that can occur due to estrus. We have clarified this in the ‘Animal Work’ section of the Methods (Lines 103-106) as well as in the Figure Legends.

      (d) We thank the Reviewer for pointing out Fig. 3E lacks individual data points on the bar graph. Fig. 3E has been modified to now include the brain weight/body weight ratio for each individual mouse rather than across the population, to be consistent with the calculation of head width/body weight ratio (see point 2a).

      On original submission, only a representative WT image was selected due to space constraints. The figure (new Fig. 3H and 3K) and figure legend have been revised to include representative traces for all genotypes examined.

      (3) In lines 315-320, "None of the Trio variant heterozygotes exhibited altered dendritic spine density on M1 L5 pyramidal neurons compared to WT mice on either apical or basal arbors (Supplementary Figure 3L, M). Electron microscopy of cortical area M1 L5 revealed that synapse density was significantly increased in +/K1918X mice compared to WT (Figure 3A, B), possibly due to a net reduction in neuropil resulting from smaller dendritic arbors." The proposed explanation does not adequately address the observed discrepancy between spine density and synapse density reported in these two experiments. A more thorough analysis is needed to reconcile these conflicting findings and clarify how these distinct measurements may relate to each other in the context of the study's conclusions.

      We acknowledge the apparent discrepancy between our dendritic spine density data, which is unchanged from WT for all three Trio variant heterozygotes, and our synapse density data, which showed an increase in +/K1918X M1 L5 compared to WT. We have expanded the explanation for this discrepancy below and added this to the Discussion (Lines 802-811):

      a) Because spine density can vary by dendritic branch order and distance from the soma, only protrusions from secondary dendritic arbors of M1 L5 pyramidal neurons were quantified for consistency in analyses. However, all synapses meeting criteria were quantified in EM images, regardless of where they were located along an individual neuron’s arbors. It is possible that the density and distribution of spines along other arbors are different between genotypes but was not captured in our current data.

      b) +/K1918X L5 pyramidal neurons are smaller and less complex than WT neurons, especially in the basal compartment corresponding to L5 where EM images were obtained, consistent with the smaller brain size and reduced cortical thickness of +/K1918X mice. We posit that due to their smaller dendritic field size, L5 neurons pack more densely contributing to the increased synapse density observed in +/K1918X M1 L5 cortex. Consistent with this hypothesis, we observed a trend toward increased DAPI+ cell density in M1 L5 of +/K1918X neurons (Supp. Fig. 3N).

      (4) In Figure 4, one potential rationale for measuring AMPAR mEPSC frequency is to infer synapse density changes. However, the findings show no frequency change in +/K1431M and +/K1918X, with an increase only in +/M2145T, which contradicts Figure 3 results indicating a trend toward increased density across variants.

      This inconsistency is confusing, especially since the authors claim to follow the methodology from the study "Trio Haploinsufficiency Causes Neurodevelopmental Disease-Associated Deficits"; yet, the observed mEPSC amplitude differs significantly from that study, while the frequency remains unaffected. Additionally, the NMDAR mEPSCs reflect combined AMPAR and NMDAR responses at positive holding potentials, with peak amplitude dominated by AMPAR. This inconsistency between holding potential results is unclear, as frequency should theoretically align across negative and positive potentials. For accurate NMDAR mEPSC measurement, it would be optimal to assess amplitude 50 ms post-initial peak and, if possible, increase the holding potential to enhance the driving force given the typically low signal of NMDAR response.

      We thank the Reviewer for highlighting these important points.

      a) Previous work from our lab and others demonstrate that Trio regulates synaptic AMPA receptor levels, which is why we chose to focus on AMPAR-mediated evoked and miniature EPSC frequencies and amplitudes in the current study. We acknowledge Reviewer 1’s comment on seemingly contradictory results regarding AMPAR mEPSC frequency and synapse density; however, the unchanged AMPAR mEPSC frequency in +/K1431M and +/K1918X mice is consistent with our finding of unaltered dendritic spine density in these mice compared to WT (Supp. Fig. 4L,M). The differences between dendritic spine counts and synapse density is addressed in Response (3) above.

      b) While synapse density changes can be inferred from AMPAR mEPSC frequency, mEPSCs are also measures of spontaneous neurotransmitter release changes especially in the absence of changes in synaptic numbers. Notably, the increased mEPSC frequency in the +/M2145T variant is linked to enhanced spontaneous release, not to spine or synapse density changes. These findings are reinforced by increase in counts of synaptic vesicles, calculated PPR changes, and estimates of the Pr and RRP from HFS train analysis. We have included these points in the Discussion (Lines 861-863).

      c) While it is tempting to compare the current study to our previously published conditional Trio haploinsufficiency model, we highlight key distinctions that may underlie phenotypic differences between these two mouse models. First, our prior model used a NEX-Cre transgene to ablate one Trio allele from excitatory neurons only beginning at embryonic day 11. In contrast, our Trio variants are expressed in all cell types throughout development, akin to the genetic variants found in individuals with TRIO-related disorders. Second, the Trio variant mice in this study are on a C57BL/6 background, while the Trio haploinsufficient mice were on a mixed 129Sv/J X C57BL/6 background. These differences in the current study may explain why some measures, such as mEPSC amplitude, may not align with those from the Trio conditional haploinsufficiency model.

      d) Recordings were performed using specific inhibitors to isolate AMPA and NMDA mEPSCs; these missing methodological details have now been clarified in the updated Methods section (Lines 353-360).

      (5) In Supplementary Figure 4, the sample traces indicate a higher NMDA/AMPA ratio, raising the question of whether the AMPA EPSC amplitude changes, as this could reflect PSD length. In Figure 4B, the increased AMPAR mEPSC amplitude in the +/K1918X condition compared to WT suggests an enhanced postsynaptic response, yet the PSD length is reduced in Figure 3C. Can the authors provide a potential hypothesis to explain this?

      We appreciate the Reviewer’s feedback. Yes, both evoked and miniature recordings indicate increased AMPAR amplitudes in the +/K1918X variants compared to WT. While PSD length is often linked to synaptic strength, the observed reduction in PSD length in EM PSD length reduction in +/K1918X synapses is small (~6% of WT) and clearly does not correlate with significant changes in synaptic strength. We also note that the whole cell recordings of mEPSCs represent input from all active synapses on the neuron, while PSD length is measured only in synapses of the L5.

      (6) In Figure 4, synaptic plasticity appears to decrease to around 50% of baseline; could this reduction be attributed to LTD, or might it result from changes in pipette resistance? Additionally, is the observed potentiation due to changes in presynaptic release probability? Measuring paired-pulse ratio (PPR) before and after induction would clarify this aspect.

      We thank the Reviewer for highlighting these important points.

      a) We used a well-established theta burst stimulation method for LTP induction in M1 L5 pyramidal neurons. This protocol reliably evokes LTP in WT neurons, as shown in Fig. 5J and K. Both +/K1431M and +/K1918X variants exhibit a slight but discernible increase in evoked excitatory postsynaptic currents (eEPSCs), indicative of the initiation of LTP. Although this increase is smaller compared to WT, the presence of potentiation indicates that long-term depression (LTD) is an unlikely explanation for the observed reduction.

      b) To rule out the influence of technical artifacts, pipette resistance was carefully monitored before and after LTP induction. Any cells exhibiting resistance changes exceeding 20% during electrophysiological recordings were excluded from the analysis, ensuring that fluctuations in pipette resistance did not confound LTP measurements. These technical details are denoted in the Methods (Lines 344-346 and 364-366).

      c) The potentiation in the +/M2145T variant may stem from increased release probability (Pr) and greater synaptic vesicle availability, but is beyond the scope of this work. We agree this is an intriguing question, not only for +/M2145T but also for +/K1431M mice. Future studies should address this, ideally using models where the Trio variant is selectively introduced into the presynaptic neuron.

      (7) In lines 377-380, "The +/M2145T PPR curve was unusual, with significantly reduced PPF at short ISIs, yet clearly increased PPF at longer ISI (Figure 5A, B) compared to WT." The unusual PPR observed at the 100 ms ISI appears unexpected. Can the authors provide an explanation for this anomaly? This finding could suggest atypical presynaptic dynamics or modulation at this specific interval, which may differ from typical synaptic behavior. Further insights into possible mechanisms or experimental conditions affecting this result would be valuable.

      "The decreased PPF at initial ISI in +/M2145T mice correlated with increased mEPSC frequency (Fig. 4A-C), suggestive of a possible increase in spontaneous glutamate Pr." If this is the case, it raises the question of why the increased PPR at the initial ISI in +/K1431M does not correspond to the result shown in Figure 4C. This discrepancy suggests that factors beyond initial presynaptic release probability might be influencing the observed synaptic response, or that compensatory mechanisms could be affecting PPR and mEPSC frequency differently in this variant. Further clarification on the interplay between these measurements would help resolve this inconsistency.

      We appreciate the Reviewer’s critical reading and genuine interest on this phenotype in +/M2145T mice.

      a) The unusual shift of the PPR in +/M2145T at ISI 100ms is fascinating and will require significant additional experimentation that lies beyond the scope of this report to address. We propose it results from altered presynaptic regulators, including increased Syt3 and reduced RhoA activity. Notably, Syt3 influences calcium-dependent SV replenishment, which can cause similar PPR defects (Weingarten DJ et al., 2022); this is now included in the Discussion. (Lines 915-918).

      Weingarten DJ, Shrestha A, Juda-Nelson K, Kissiwaa SA, Spruston E, Jackman SL. Fast resupply of synaptic vesicles requires synaptotagmin-3. Nature. 2022 Nov;611(7935):320-325. doi: 10.1038/s41586-022-05337-1. Epub 2022 Oct 19. PMID: 36261524.

      b) Thank you for raising the concern in clarity of this statement "The decreased PPF at initial ISI in +/M2145T mice correlated with increased mEPSC frequency (Fig. 4A-C), suggestive of a possible increase in spontaneous glutamate Pr." We have edited the sentence to be more clear (Lines 701-703). First, the K1431M and M2145T variants impact different TRIO catalytic activities disrupting distinct GTPase pathways and differentially affecting presynaptic regulators, which can lead to non-overlapping phenotypes. Also, we expand our discussion that +/K1431M variant data suggest increased AMPAR numbers and fewer silent synapses (Lines 850-855), potentially increasing AMPAR mEPSC frequency and masking the expected decrease in spontaneous release (Lines 905-910). Further experiments are needed, ideally using mixed cultures with TRIO variants in presynaptic neurons with synapses on WT neurons, as minimal stimulation variance analysis in slices would be inconclusive due to its reflection of both Pr and silent synapse changes, similar to mEPSC frequency.

      (8) In Figure 5, there is no evidence demonstrating that the NSC inhibitor functions specifically in the +/K1431M condition without affecting other conditions. To verify its specificity, the authors should test the NSC inhibitor's effects across other conditions in parallel, including a control group. Additionally, cumulative RRP measurements should be provided for a more comprehensive assessment of the inhibitor's impact on synaptic function.

      We appreciate the Reviewer’s feedback.

      a) Previous studies have shown that Rac1 activity can bidirectionally regulate synchronous release probability (Pr). We used the Rac1-specific inhibitor NSC23766 (NSC) to test how Rac1 inhibition impacted the neurotransmitter release deficits observed in +/K1431M mice. We also added control experiments testing the impact of NSC on WT slices. These new experiments are now presented in new Fig. 8 of the revised manuscript, with expanded details in the Results (Lines 737-750) and Discussion (Lines 892-900).

      b) To estimate Pr and the RRP, we employed the Decay method as described by (Ruiz et al., 2011), which does not rely on cumulative EPSC plots for RRP estimation. This approach was chosen to account for the initial facilitation in these synapses and fits are done using EPSCs plotted against stimulus number. Additional details have been provided in the Methods section  (Lines 367-373).

      Ruiz R, Cano R, Casañas JJ, Gaffield MA, Betz WJ, Tabares L. Active zones and the readily releasable pool of synaptic vesicles at the neuromuscular junction of the mouse. J Neurosci. 2011 Feb 9;31(6):2000-8. doi: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.4663-10.2011. PMID: 21307238; PMCID: PMC6633039.

      (9) Given the relevance to NDD, specifying the age window of the mice used is crucial. It is confusing that the synaptic function studies were conducted at P42, while the proteomic analysis was performed at P21. Could the authors clarify the rationale behind using different age points for these analyses? Consistency in age selection, or an explanation for this variation, would help in interpreting the developmental relevance of the findings.

      P42 was chosen as the age as it represents young adulthood, by which time clinical features will have already presented in individuals with neurodevelopmental disorders. Our prior studies of NEX-Cre Trio<sup>-/-</sup> mice found significant measurable differences from WT at this age, after neuronal migration, differentiation, synaptogenesis and pruning have occurred. An earlier developmental timepoint, P21, which coincides with juvenile age in mice, was chosen for proteomics studies to identify earlier changes and potentially targetable and modifiable mechanisms that could influence the phenotypes we observed in older mice. The experiments in P42 versus P21 mice were originally two independent lines of investigation that converged in the current study.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript is about using different analytical approaches to allow ancestry adjustments to GWAS analyses amongst admixed populations. This work is a follow-on from the recently published ITHGC multi-population GWAS (https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.84394), with the focus on the admixed South African populations. Ancestry adjustment models detected a peak of SNPs in the class II HLA DPB1, distinct from the class II HLA DQA1 loci signficant in the ITHGC analysis.

      Strengths:

      Excellent demonstration of GWAS analytical pipelines in highly admixed populations. Particularly the utility of ancestry adjustment to improve study power to detect novel associations. Further confirmation of the importance of the HLA class II locus in genetic susceptibility to TB.

      Weaknesses:

      Limited novelty compared to the group's previous existing publications and the body of work linking HLA class II alleles with TB susceptibility in South Africa or other African populations. This work includes only ~100 new cases and controls from what has already been published. High resolution HLA typing has detected significant signals in both the DQA1 and DPB1 regions identified by the larger ITHGC and in this GWAS analysis respectively (Chihab L et al. HLA. 2023 Feb; 101(2): 124-137).<br /> Despite the availability of strong methods for imputing HLA from GWAS data (Karnes J et Plos One 2017), the authors did not confirm with HLA typing the importance of their SNP peak in the class II region. This would have supported the importance of this ancestry adjustment versus prior ITHGC analysis.

      The populations consider active TB and healthy controls (from high-burden presumed exposed communities) and do not provide QFT or other data to identify latent TB infection.

      Important methodological points for clarification and for readers to be aware of when reading this paper:

      (1) One of the reasons cited for the lack of African ancestry-specific associations or suggestive peaks in the ITHGC study was the small African sample size. The current association test includes a larger African cohort and yields a near-genome-wide significant threshold in the HLA-DPB1 gene originating from the KhoeSan ancestry. Investigation is needed as to whether the increase in power is due to increased African samples and not necessarily the use of the LAAA model as stated on lines 295 and 296?

      Authors response - The Manhattan plot in Figure 3 includes the results for all four models: the traditional GWAS model (GAO), the admixture mapping model (LAO), the ancestry plus allelic (APA) model and the LAAA model. In this figure, it is evident that only the LAAA model identified the association peak on chromosome 6, which lends support the argument that the increase in power is due to the use of the LAAA model and not solely due to the increase in sample size.<br /> Reviewer comment - This data supports the authors conclusions that increase power is related to the LAAA model application rather than simply increase sample size.

      (2) In line 256, the number of SNPs included in the LAAA analysis was 784,557 autosomal markers; the number of SNPs after quality control of the imputed dataset was 7,510,051 SNPs (line 142). It is not clear how or why ~90% of the SNPs were removed. This needs clarification.

      Authors response:<br /> In our manuscript (line 194), we mention that "...variants with minor allele frequency (MAF) < 1% were removed to improve the stability of the association tests." A large proportion of imputed variants fell below this MAF threshold and were subsequently excluded from this analysis.

      Reviewers additional comment: The authors should specify the number of SNPs in the dataset before imputation and indicate what proportion of the 784,557 remaining SNPs were imputed. Providing this information might help the reader better understand the rationale behind the imputation process.

      (3) The authors have used the significance threshold estimated by the STEAM p-value < 2.5x10-6 in the LAAA analysis. Grinde et al. (2019 implemented their significance threshold estimation approach tailored to admixture mapping (local ancestry (LA) model), where there is a reduction in testing burden. The authors should justify why this threshold would apply to the LAAA model (a joint genotype and ancestry approach).

      Authors response: We describe in the methods (line 189 onwards) that the LAAA model is an extension of the APA model. Since the APA model itself simultaneously performs the null global ancestry only model and the local ancestry model (utilised in admixture mapping), we thus considered the use of a threshold tailored to admixture mapping appropriate for the LAAA model.

      Reviewers additional comment: While the LAAA model is an extension of the APA model, the authors describe the LAAA test as 'models the combination of the minor allele and the ancestry of the minor allele at a specific locus, along with the effect of this interaction,' thus a joint allele and ancestry effects model. Grinde et al. (2019) proposed the significance threshold estimation approach, STEAM, specifically for the LA approach, which tests for ancestry effects alone and benefits from the reduced testing burden. However, it remains unclear why the authors found it appropriate to apply STEAM to the LAAA model, a joint test for both allele and ancestry effects, which does not benefit from the same reduction in testing burden.

      (4) Batch effect screening and correction (line 174) is a quality control check. This section is discussed after global and local ancestry inferences in the methods. Was this QC step conducted after the inferencing? If so, the authors should justify how the removed SNPs due to the batch effect did not affect the global and local ancestry inferences or should order the methods section correctly to avoid confusion.

      Authors response: The batch effect correction method utilised a pseudo-case-control comparison which included global ancestry proportions. Thus, batch effect correction was conducted after ancestry inference. We excluded 36 627 SNPs that were believed to have been affected by the batch effect. We have amended line 186 to include the exact number of SNPs excluded due to batch effect.<br /> The ancestry inference by RFMix utilised the entire merged dataset of 7 510 051 SNPs. Thus, the SNPs removed due to the batch effect make up a very small proportion of the SNPs used to conduct global and local ancestry inferences (less than 0.5%). As a result, we do not believe that the removed SNPs would have significantly affected the global and local ancestry inferences. However, we did conduct global ancestry inference with RFMix on each separate dataset as a sanity check. In the tables below, we show the average global ancestry proportions inferred for each separate dataset, the average global ancestry proportions across all datasets and the average global ancestry proportions inferred using the merged dataset. The SAC and Xhosa cohorts are shown in two separate tables due to the different number of contributing ancestral populations to each cohort. The differences between the combined average global ancestry proportions across the separate cohorts does not differ significantly to the global ancestry proportions inferred using the merged dataset.

      This is an excellent response and should remain accessible to readers for clarifying this issue.

      Comments on revisions:

      Thank you for addressing my other recommendations to authors. These have all been satisfactorily addressed.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1:

      First, I thank the authors for clarifying some of the confusion I had in the previous comment and I appreciate the efforts the authors put into improving the quality of the manuscript. However, my concerns about the lack of novelty of the key findings are not perfectly addressed and there is no additional analysis done in this revision. Currently in this version of the manuscript, asserting that a p-value of 10-6 is close to genome-wide significance may be considered an overstatement. Further analysis focusing on finding novel and additional discovery is very necessary.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments. Reviewer #2 also made a comment regarding the genomewide threshold, “However, it remains unclear why the authors found it appropriate to apply STEAM to the LAAA model, a joint test for both allele and ancestry effects, which does not benefit from the same reduction in testing burden.” The reviewers’ have correctly identified our oversight - we have amended the manuscript as follows:

      (1) The abstract, “We identified a suggestive association peak (rs3117230, p-value = 5.292 x10-6, OR = 0.437, SE = 0.182) in the HLA-DPB1 gene originating from KhoeSan ancestry.”

      (2) From line 233 to 239: “The R package STEAM (Significance Threshold Estimation for Admixture Mapping) (Grinde et al., 2019) was used to determine the admixture mapping significance threshold given the global ancestral proportions of each individual and the number of generations since admixture (g = 15). For the LA model, a genome-wide significance threshold of pvalue < 2.5 x 10-6 was deemed significant by STEAM. The traditional genome-wide significance threshold of 5 x 10-8 was used for the GA, APA and LAAA models, as recommended by the authors of the LAAA model (Duan et al., 2018).” 

      (3) We excluded the results for the signal on chromosome 20, since this also did not reach the LAAA model genome-wide significance threshold.  

      (4) From line 296 to 308: “LAAA models were successfully applied for all five contributing ancestries (KhoeSan, Bantu-speaking African, European, East Asian and Southeast Asian). However, no variants passed the threshold for statistical significance. Although no variants reached genome-wide significance, a suggestive peak was identified in the HLA-II region of chromosome 6 when using the LAAA model and adjusting for KhoeSan ancestry (Figure 3). The QQ-plot suggested minimal genomic inflation, which was verified by calculating the genomic inflation factor ( = 1.05289) (Supplementary Figure 1). The lead variants identified using the LAAA model whilst adjusting for KhoeSan ancestry in this region on chromosome 6 are summarised in Table 3. The suggestive peak encompasses the HLA-DPA1/B1 (major histocompatibility complex, class II, DP alpha 1/beta 1) genes (Figure 4). It is noteworthy that without the LAAA model, this suggestive peak would not have been observed for this cohort. This highlights the importance of utilising the LAAA model in future association studies when investigating disease susceptibility loci in admixed individuals, such as the SAC population.”

      We acknowledge that our results are not statistically significant. However, our study advances this area of research by identifying suggestive African-specific ancestry associations with TB in the HLA-II region. These findings build upon the work of the ITHGC, which did not identify any significant associations or suggestive peaks in their African-specific analyses. We have included this argument in our manuscript (from lines 425 to 432):

      “The ITHGC did not identify any significant associations or suggestive peaks in their African ancestryspecific analyses.  Notably, the suggestive peak in the HLA-DPB1 region was only captured in our cohort using the LAAA model whilst adjusting for KhoeSan local ancestry. This underscores the importance of incorporating global and local ancestry in association studies investigating complex multi-way admixed individuals, as the genetic heterogeneity present in admixed individuals (produced as a result of admixtureinduced and ancestral LD patterns) may cause association signals to be missed when using traditional association models (Duan et al., 2018; Swart, van Eeden, et al., 2022).”

      We appreciate the comment regarding additional analyses. We acknowledge that we did not validate our SNP peak in the HLA-II region through fine-mapping due to the lack of a suitable reference panel (see lines 490 to 500). Our long-term goal is to develop a HLA-imputation reference panel incorporating KhoeSan ancestry; however, this is beyond the scope and funding allowances of this study.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The authors we think have done an excellent job with their responses and the manuscript has been substantially improved.

      Thank you for taking the time to help us improve our manuscript.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study examines the role of TRPV1 signaling in the recruitment of monocyte-derived macrophages and the promotion of angiogenesis during tympanic membrane (TM) wound healing. The authors use a combination of genetic mouse models, macrophage depletion, and transcriptomic approaches to suggest that neuronal TRPV1 activity contributes to macrophage-driven vascular responses necessary for tissue repair.

      Strengths:

      (1) The topic of neuroimmune interactions in tissue regeneration is of interest and underexplored in the context of the TM, which presents a unique model due to its anatomical features.

      (2) The use of reporter mice and bone marrow chimeras allows for some dissection of immune cell origin.

      (3) The authors incorporate transcriptomic data to contextualize inflammatory and angiogenic processes during wound healing.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The primary claims of the manuscript are not convincingly supported by the evidence presented. Most of the data are correlative in nature, and no direct mechanistic experiments are included to establish causality between TRPV1 signaling and macrophage recruitment or function.

      (2) Functional validation of key molecular players (such as Tac1 or Spp1) is lacking, and their roles are inferred primarily from gene expression data rather than experimentally tested.

      (3) The reuse of publicly available scRNA-seq data is not sufficiently integrated or extended to yield new biological insights, and it remains largely descriptive.

      (4) The macrophage depletion model (CX3CR1CreER; iDTR) lacks specificity, and possible off-target or systemic effects are not addressed.

      (5) Several interpretations of the data appear overstated, particularly regarding the necessity of TRPV1 for monocyte recruitment and wound healing.

      (6) Overall, the study appears to apply known concepts - namely, TRPV1-mediated neurogenic inflammation and macrophage-driven angiogenesis - to a new anatomical site without providing new mechanistic insight or advancing the field substantially.

      Overall:

      While the study addresses an interesting topic, the current version does not provide sufficiently strong or novel evidence to support its major conclusions. Additional mechanistic experiments and more rigorous validation would be necessary to substantiate the proposed model and clarify the relevance of the findings beyond this specific tissue context.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper presents results from four independent experiments, each of which tests for rhythmicity in auditory perception. The authors report rhythmic fluctuations in discrimination performance at frequencies between 2 and 6 Hz. The exact frequency depends on the ear and experimental paradigm, although some frequencies seem to be more common than others.

      Strengths:

      The first sentence in the abstract describes the state of the art perfectly: "Numerous studies advocate for a rhythmic mode of perception; however, the evidence in the context of auditory perception remains inconsistent". This is precisely why the data from the present study is so valuable. This is probably the study with the highest sample size (total of > 100 in 4 experiments) in the field. The analysis is very thorough and transparent, due to the comparison of several statistical approaches and simulations of their sensitivity. Each of the experiments differs from the others in a clearly defined experimental parameter, and the authors test how this impacts auditory rhythmicity, measured in pitch discrimination performance (accuracy, sensitivity, bias) of a target presented at various delays after noise onset.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors find that the frequency of auditory perception changes between experiments. I think they could exploit differences between experiments better to interpret and understand the obtained results. These differences are very well described in the Introduction, but don't seem to be used for the interpretation of results. For instance, what does it mean if perceptual frequency changes from between- to within-trial pitch discrimination? Why did the authors choose this experimental manipulation? Based on differences between experiments, is there any systematic pattern in the results that allows conclusions about the roles of different frequencies? I think the Discussion would benefit from an extension to cover this aspect.

      (2) The Results give the impression of clear-cut differences in relevant frequencies between experiments (e.g., 2 Hz in Experiment 1, 6 Hz in Exp 2, etc), but they might not be so different. For instance, a 6 Hz effect is also visible in Experiment 1, but it just does not reach conventional significance. The average across the three experiments is therefore very useful, and also seems to suggest that differences between experiments are not very pronounced (otherwise the average would not produce clear peaks in the spectrum). I suggest making this point clearer in the text.

      (3) I struggle to understand the hypothesis that rhythmic sampling differs between ears. In most everyday scenarios, the same sounds arrive at both ears, and the time difference between the two is too small to play a role for the frequencies tested. If both ears operate at different frequencies, the effects of the rhythm on overall perception would then often cancel out. But if this is the case, why would the two ears have different rhythms to begin with? This could be described in more detail.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The current study aims to shed light on why previous work on perceptual rhythmicity has led to inconsistent results. They propose that the differences may stem from conceptual and methodological issues. In a series of experiments, the current study reports perceptual rhythmicity in different frequency bands that differ between different ear stimulations and behavioral measures. The study suggests challenges regarding the idea of universal perceptual rhythmicity in hearing.

      Strengths:

      The study aims to address differences observed in previous studies about perceptual rhythmicity. This is important and timely because the existing literature provides quite inconsistent findings. Several experiments were conducted to assess perceptual rhythmicity in hearing from different angles. The authors use sophisticated approaches to address the research questions.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Conceptional concerns:

      The authors place their research in the context of a rhythmic mode of perception. They also discuss continuous vs rhythmic mode processing. Their study further follows a design that seems to be based on paradigms that assume a recent phase in neural oscillations that subsequently influence perception (e.g., Fiebelkorn et al.; Landau & Fries). In my view, these are different facets in the neural oscillation research space that require a bit more nuanced separation. Continuous mode processing is associated with vigilance tasks (work by Schroeder and Lakatos; reduction of low frequency oscillations and sustained gamma activity), whereas the authors of this study seem to link it to hearing tasks specifically (e.g., line 694). Rhythmic mode processing is associated with rhythmic stimulation by which neural oscillations entrain and influence perception (also, Schroeder and Lakatos; greater low-frequency fluctuations and more rhythmic gamma activity). The current study mirrors the continuous rather than the rhythmic mode (i.e., there was no rhythmic stimulation), but even the former seems not fully fitting, because trials are 1.8 s short and do not really reflect a vigilance task. Finally, previous paradigms on phase-resetting reflect more closely the design of the current study (i.e., different times of a target stimulus relative to the reset of an oscillation). This is the work by Fiebelkorn et al., Landau & Fries, and others, which do not seem to be cited here, which I find surprising. Moreover, the authors would want to discuss the role of the background noise in resetting the phase of an oscillation, and the role of the fixation cross also possibly resetting the phase of an oscillation. Regardless, the conceptional mixture of all these facets makes interpretations really challenging. The phase-reset nature of the paradigm is not (or not well) explained, and the discussion mixes the different concepts and approaches. I recommend that the authors frame their work more clearly in the context of these different concepts (affecting large portions of the manuscript).

      (2) Methodological concerns:

      The authors use a relatively unorthodox approach to statistical testing. I understand that they try to capture and characterize the sensitivity of the different analysis approaches to rhythmic behavioral effects. However, it is a bit unclear what meaningful effects are in the study. For example, the bootstrapping approach that identifies the percentage of significant variations of sample selections is rather descriptive (Figures 5-7). The authors seem to suggest that 50% of the samples are meaningful (given the dashed line in the figure), even though this is rarely reached in any of the analyses. Perhaps >80% of samples should show a significant effect to be meaningful (at least to my subjective mind). To me, the low percentage rather suggests that there is not too much meaningful rhythmicity present. I suggest that the authors also present more traditional, perhaps multi-level, analyses: Calculation of spectra, binning, or single-trial analysis for each participant and condition, and the respective calculation of the surrogate data analysis, and then comparison of the surrogate data to the original data on the second (participant) level using t-tests. I also thought the statistical approach undertaken here could have been a bit more clearly/didactically described as well.

      The authors used an adaptive procedure during the experimental blocks such that the stimulus intensity was adjusted throughout. In practice, this can be a disadvantage relative to keeping the intensity constant throughout, because, on average, correct trials will be associated with a higher intensity than incorrect trials, potentially making observations of perceptual rhythmicity more challenging. The authors would want to discuss this potential issue. Intensity adjustments could perhaps contribute to the observed rhythmicity effects. Perhaps the rhythmicity of the stimulus intensity could be analyzed as well. In any case, the adaptive procedure may add variance to the data.

      Additional methodological concerns relate to Figure 8. Figures 8A and C seem to indicate that a baseline correction for a very short time window was calculated (I could not find anything about this in the methods section). The data seem very variable and artificially constrained in the baseline time window. It was unclear what the reader might take from Figure 8.

      Motivation and discussion of eye-movement/pupillometry and motor activity: The dual task paradigm of Experiment 4 and the reasons for assessing eye metrics in the current study could have been better motivated. The experiment somehow does not fit in very well. There is recent evidence that eye movements decrease during effortful tasks (e.g., Contadini-Wright et al. 2023 J Neurosci; Herrmann & Ryan 2024 J Cog Neurosci), which appears to contradict the results presented in the current study. Moreover, by appealing to active sensing frameworks, the authors suggest that active movements can facilitate listening outcomes (line 677; they should provide a reference for this claim), but it is unclear how this would relate to eye movements. Certainly, a person may move their head closer to a sound source in the presence of competing sound to increase the signal-to-noise ratio, but this is not really the active movements that are measured here. A more detailed discussion may be important. The authors further frame the difference between Experiments 1 and 2 as being related to participants' motor activity. However, there are other factors that could explain differences between experiments. Self-paced trials give participants the opportunity to rest more (inter-trial durations were likely longer in Experiment 2), perhaps affecting attentional engagement. I think a more nuanced discussion may be warranted.

      Discussion:

      The main data in Figure 3 showed little rhythmicity. The authors seem to glance over this fact by simply stating that the same phase is not necessary for their statistical analysis. Previous work, however, showed rhythmicity in the across-participant average (e.g., Fiebelkorn's and similar work). Moreover, one would expect that some of the effects in the low-frequency band (e.g., 2-4 Hz) are somewhat similar across participants. Conduction delays in the auditory system are much smaller than the 0.25-0.5 s associated with 2-4 Hz. The authors would want to discuss why different participants would express so vastly different phases that the across-participant average does not show any rhythmicity, and what this would mean neurophysiologically.

      An additional point that may require more nuanced discussion is related to the rhythmicity of response bias versus sensitivity. The authors could discuss what the rhythmicity of these different measures in different frequency bands means, with respect to underlying neural oscillations.

      Figures:

      Much of the text in the figures seems really small. Perhaps the authors would want to ensure it is readable even for those with low vision abilities. Moreover, Figure 1A is not as intuitive as it could be and may perhaps be made clearer. I also suggest the authors discuss a bit more the potential monoaural vs binaural issues, because the perceptual rhythmicity is much slower than any conduction delays in the auditory system that could lead to interference.

    3. Author response:

      We are grateful to the reviewers for their extensive and constructive feedback. In large the three reviewers noted the following main points:

      (1) The overall evidence for any rhythmicity in this data is not ‘very strong’.

      We do agree and will tone down the conclusions accordingly. However, as one of the reviewers noted, a qualitative interpretation of the specific statistical results remains somewhat vague and speculative by necessity.

      (2) The differences between the results for the individual experiments are generally small. Yet, the same reviewer also asks for speculations as to how differences between experiments can be interpreted.

      We will consider these, but also note that a clear demonstration of the robustness of specific effects requires the replication of individual experiments in a separate experiment.

      (3) A clear-cut interpretation of the current experimental design in the context of continuous listening and true vigilance tasks remains difficult. This makes the interpretation and generalization of the results difficult.

      We do agree in principle, but also note that task designs very widely in previous work, which may be one reason for why there is no clear consensus on the existence or absence of a rhythmic mode of listening. We will consider specific suggestions for future work to be included in the revision.

      (4) The adjustment of task difficulty in the present task design may pose a challenge. Reviewers also suggest analyzing potential rhythmicity in this task difficulty parameter.

      We will consider this for the revision.

      (5) A more clear-cut interpretation of what potential differences in the rhythmicity of sensitivity and bias would mean should be included.

      We will provide this in the revision.

      (6) The study should provide a stronger conceptual framework both for the source of "rhythmic modes" and why one may expect differences between ears.

      In large this has been put forward by many previous studies testing and reporting rhythmicity in auditory tasks.  Rhythmicity is pervasive in neural activity, but whether and how this relates to behavioral data remains less clear. These points will be clarified in a revision.

      (7) Parallels to work in the visual domain by Fiebelkorn, Landau & Fries should be included.

      We will discuss similarities and differences between studies on perceptual rhythmicity in the visual and auditory domains.

    1. 从λ演算到DTT的升级

      λ演算(Lambda Calculus)到 依赖类型理论(Dependent Type Theory, DTT)的演进是数学逻辑、计算机科学和类型理论的重要发展之一。这一进程不仅推动了计算理论的深化,也为编程语言的设计提供了理论支持。让我们一起来看看这一演进的关键步骤和思想。

      1. λ演算(Lambda Calculus) - 数学逻辑的起点

      λ演算阿隆佐·邱奇(Alonzo Church)于1930年代提出,是一种形式化的计算模型,旨在为函数定义和计算提供严格的数学基础。λ演算的核心思想是通过抽象和函数应用来进行计算,形式化了计算过程的基本原则。

      • 基本构成:λ演算的核心构成是函数抽象和函数应用,具体表现为:

      • λ抽象:$\lambda x . E$,表示一个函数,其输入为 $x$,输出为表达式 $E$。

      • 函数应用:$(\lambda x . E) \, A$,表示将函数应用于参数 $A$。

      • 意义:λ演算不仅为编程语言提供了函数式编程的基础,还为后来的类型理论和证明系统奠定了基础。它的简洁性和普适性使其成为计算理论的一个基石。

      然而,λ演算本身并没有涉及到类型的概念,它只是对计算过程的抽象,缺乏对“数据”的形式化描述。

      2. 从λ演算到类型系统

      随着对λ演算的研究深入,数学家和计算机科学家逐渐认识到,为了更好地描述和管理程序中的数据,我们需要为λ演算引入类型系统。这一转变始于20世纪60年代末,类型系统的引入为λ演算带来了更强的表达能力和更强的程序验证机制。

      • 类型系统的引入:最早的类型系统是 简单类型系统(Simply Typed Lambda Calculus),由 Henk Barendregt 和其他研究者提出。它为λ演算中的函数引入了类型,比如:

      • 类型表达式如 $A \to B$,表示一个从类型 $A$ 到类型 $B$ 的函数。

      • 通过引入类型,λ演算不仅仅描述计算过程,还为计算中的数据和函数提供了结构化的描述。

      • 意义:简单类型λ演算解决了λ演算中的一些问题,如无效应用(例如应用一个非函数对象)和程序的正确性验证。

      3. 依赖类型理论(DTT)的引入

      随着类型系统的发展,研究者们认识到,依赖类型(Dependent Types)提供了一种更为强大和灵活的方式来描述程序和证明。依赖类型理论(DTT)引入了 类型依赖于值 的概念,这使得类型能够描述更加复杂的关系和结构。

      • 依赖类型的定义:在传统的类型系统中,类型仅仅是数据的抽象描述。但在依赖类型系统中,类型可以依赖于程序中的值,即类型本身可以是程序的一部分。这使得类型系统不仅能够描述数据的结构,还能描述数据之间的依赖关系。

      • 形式化:例如,在依赖类型系统中,我们可以定义如下的类型:

      • $\text{Vec}(A, n)$,表示包含 $n$ 个元素的类型,其中 $n$ 是一个整数常量。

      • 类型 $\text{Vec}(A, n)$ 是依赖于 $n$ 这个值的,这意味着我们不仅仅描述数据的类型,还描述了数据的大小或结构。

      • 意义:依赖类型为编程语言带来了极强的表达能力,使得程序不仅可以在编译时获得类型检查,还能在编译时进行更深入的程序验证。例如,证明程序的正确性、验证算法的复杂度、甚至在类型系统中直接表达数学定理。

      4. 依赖类型理论与程序证明

      依赖类型的一个重要应用是在 证明助手(Proof Assistants)中,像 CoqAgda 这样的工具就是建立在依赖类型理论之上的。

      • Coq 和 Agda:这两个工具使用依赖类型理论来形式化和验证数学定理,以及对程序的正确性进行证明。依赖类型使得程序员能够在编写程序时,同时给出其正确性的证明,证明和程序成为一体,这是依赖类型的一大亮点。

      5. λ演算到依赖类型理论的演进总结

      • λ演算提出了基本的计算和函数的概念,但缺乏类型。
      • 简单类型λ演算引入了类型系统,使得程序和数据的结构得到了形式化。
      • 依赖类型理论(DTT)进一步扩展了类型的概念,使得类型不仅能描述数据的结构,还能依赖于值,从而使得编程语言具有更强的表达力和证明能力。

      从λ演算到依赖类型理论的演进,不仅仅是类型系统的扩展,更是数学与计算机科学的深度融合。依赖类型使得程序的正确性、复杂性等属性可以通过类型系统直接表达和验证,成为现代编程语言设计和形式化证明的基础。

      总结

      • λ演算:为计算提供了函数抽象和应用的基础。
      • 简单类型λ演算:引入类型,使得数据和函数更加结构化。
      • 依赖类型理论:通过允许类型依赖于值,提供了更强的表达能力,可以在类型中直接表示程序的属性和证明其正确性。

      这一演进体现了计算与数学之间的深刻联系,并为编程语言、形式化验证、数学证明等领域提供了重要的理论工具。

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study by Cao et al. provides a compelling investigation into the role of mutational input in the rapid evolution of pesticide resistance, focusing on the two-spotted spider mite's response to the recent introduction of the acaricide cyetpyrafen. This well-documented introduction of the pesticide - and thus a clearly defined history of selection - offers a powerful framework for studying the temporal dynamics of rapid adaptation. The authors combine resistance phenotyping across multiple populations, extensive resequencing to track the frequency of resistance alleles, and genomic analyses of selection in both contemporary and historical samples. These approaches are further complemented by laboratory-based experimental evolution, which serves as a baseline for understanding the genetic architecture of resistance across mite populations in China. Their analyses identify two key resistance-associated genes, sdhB and sdhD, within which they detect 15 mutations in wild-collected samples. Protein modeling reveals that these mutations cluster around the pesticide's binding site, suggesting a direct functional role in resistance. The authors further examine signatures of selective sweeps and their distribution across populations to infer the mechanisms - such as de novo mutation or gene flow-driving the spread of resistance, a crucial consideration for predicting evolutionary responses to extreme selection pressure. Overall, this is a well-rounded, thoughtfully designed, and well-written manuscript. It shows significant novelty, as it is relatively rare to integrate broad-scale evolutionary inference from natural populations with experimentally informed bioassays, however, some aspects of the methods and discussion have an opportunity to be clarified and strengthened.

      Strengths:

      One of the most compelling aspects of this study is its integration of genomic time-series data in natural populations with controlled experimental evolution. By coupling genome sequencing of resistant field populations with laboratory selection experiments, the authors tease apart the individual effects of resistance alleles along with regions of the genome where selection is expected to occur, and compare that to the observed frequency in the wild populations over space and time. Their temporal data clearly demonstrates the pace at which evolution can occur in response to extreme selection. This type of approach is a powerful roadmap for the rest of the field of rapid adaptation.

      The study effectively links specific genetic changes to resistance phenotypes. The identification of sdhB and sdhD mutations as major drivers of cyetpyrafen resistance is well-supported by allele frequency shifts in both field and experimental populations. The scope of their sampling clearly facilitated the remarkable number of observed mutations within these target genes, and the authors provide a careful discussion of the likelihood of these mutations from de novo or standing variation. Furthermore, the discovered cross-resistance that these mutations confer to other mitochondrial complex II inhibitors highlights the potential for broader resistance management and evolution.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Experimental Evolution:

      - Additional information about the lab experimental evolution would be useful in the main text. Specifically, the dose of cyetpyrafen used should be clarified, especially with respect to the LD50 values. How does it compare to recommended field doses? This is expected to influence the architecture of resistance evolution. What was the sample size? This will help readers contextualize how the experimental design could influence the role of standing variation.

      - The finding that lab-evolved strains show cross-resistance is interesting, but potentially complicates the story. It would help to know more about the other mitochondrial complex II inhibitors used across China and their impact on adaptive dynamics at these loci, particularly regarding pre-existing resistance alleles. For example, a comparison of usage data from 2013, 2017, and 2019 could help explain whether cyetpyrafen was the main driver of resistance or if previous pesticides played a role. What happened in 2020 that caused such rapid evolution 3 years after launch?

      (2) Evolutionary history of resistance alleles:

      - It would be beneficial to examine the population structure of the sampled populations, especially regarding the role of migration. Though resistance evolution appears to have had minimal impact on genome-wide diversity (as shown in Supplementary Figure 2), could admixture be influencing the results? An explicit multivariate regression framework could help to understand factors influencing diversity across populations, as right now much is left to the readers' visual acuity.

      - It is unclear why lab populations were included in the migration/treemix analysis. We might suggest redoing the analysis without including the laboratory populations to reveal biologically plausible patterns of resistance evolution.

      - Can the authors explore isolation by distance (IBD) in the frequency of resistance alleles?

      - Given the claim regarding the novelty of the number of pesticide resistance mutations, it is important to acknowledge the evolution of resistance to all pesticides (antibiotics, herbicides, etc.). ALS-inhibiting herbicides have driven remarkable repeatability across species based on numerous SNPs within the target gene.

      - Figure 5 A-B. Why not run a multivariate regression with status at each resistance mutation encoded as a separate predictor? It is interesting that focusing on the predominant mutation gives the strongest r2, but it is somewhat unintuitive and masks some interesting variation among populations.

      (3) Haplotype Reconstruction (Line 271-):

      - We are a bit sceptical of the methods taken to reconstruct these haplotypes. It seems as though the authors did so with Sanger sequencing (this should be mentioned in the text), focusing only on homozygous SNPs. How many such SNPs were used to reconstruct haplotypes, along what length of sequence? For how many individuals were haplotypes reconstructed? Nonetheless, I appreciated that the authors looked into the extent to which the reconstructed haplotypes could be driven by recombination. Can the authors elaborate on the calculations in line 296? Is that the census population size estimate or effective?

      (4) Single Mutations and Their Effect (line 312-):

      - It's not entirely clear how the breeding scheme resulted in near-isogenic lines. Could the authors provide a clearer explanation of the process and its biological implications?

      - If they are indeed isogenic, it's interesting that individual resistance mutations have effects on resistance that vary considerably among lines. Could the authors run a multivariate analysis including all potential resistance SNPs to account for interactions between them? Given the variable effects of the D116G substitution (ranging from 4-25%), could polygenic or epistatic factors be influencing the evolution of resistance?

      - Why are there some populations that segregate for resistance mutations but have no survival to pesticides (i.e., the green points in Figure 5)? Some discussion of this heterogeneity seems required in the absence of validation of the effects of these particular mutations. Could it be dominance playing a role, or do the authors have some other explanation?

      - The authors mention that all resistance mutations co-localized to the Q-site. Is this where the pesticide binds? This seems like an important point to follow their argument for these being resistance-related.

      (5) Statistical Considerations for Allele Frequency Changes (Figure 3):

      - It might be helpful to use a logistic regression model to assess the rate of allele frequency changes and determine the strength of selection acting on these alleles (e.g., Kreiner et al. 2022; Patel et al. 2024). This approach could refine the interpretation of selection dynamics over time.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Felipe and colleagues try to answer an important question in Sarbecovirus Orf9b-mediated interferon signaling suppression, given that this small viral protein adopts two distinct conformations, a dimeric β-sheet-rich fold and a helix-rich monomeric fold when bound by Tom70 protein. Two Orf9b structures determined by X-ray crystallography and Cryo-EM suggest an equilibrium between the two Orf9b conformations, and it is important to understand how this equilibrium relates to its functions. To answer these questions, the authors developed a series of ordinary differential equations (ODE) describing the Orf9b conformation equilibrium between homodimers and monomers binding to Tom70. They used SPR and a fluorescent polarization (FP) peptide displacement assay to identify parameters for the equilibrium and create a theoretical model. They then used the model to characterize the effect of lipid-binding and the effects of Orf9b mutations in homodimer stability, lipid binding, and dimer-monomer equilibrium. They used their model to further analyze dimerization, lipid binding, and Orf9b-Tom70 interactions for truncated Orf9b, Orf9b fusion mutant S53E (blocking Tom70 binding), and Orf9b from a set of Sars-CoV-2 VOCs. They evaluated the ability of different Orf9b variants for binding Tom70 using Co-IP experiments and assessed their activity in suppressing IFN signaling in cells.

      Overall, this work is well designed, the results are of high quality and well-presented; the results support their conclusions.

      Strengths:

      (1) They developed a working biophysical model for analyzing Orf9b monomer-dimer equilibrium and Tom70 binding based on SPR and FP experiments; this is an important tool for future investigation.

      (2) They prepared lipid-free Orf9b homodimer and determined its crystal structure.

      (3) They designed and purified obligate Orf9b monomer, fused-dimer, etc., a very important Orf9b variant for further investigations.

      (4) They identified the lipid bound by Orf9b homodimer using mass spectra data.

      (5) They proposed a working model of Orf9b-Tom70 equilibrium.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It is difficult to understand why the obligate Orf9b dimer has similar IFN inhibition activity as the WT protein and obligate Orf9b monomer truncations.

      (2) The role of Orf9b homodimer and the role of Orf9b-bound lipid in virus infection, remains unknown.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Gruskin and colleagues use twin data from a movie-watching fMRI paradigm to show how genetic control of cortical function intersects with the processing of naturalistic audiovisual stimuli. They use hyperalignment to dissect heritability into the components that can be explained by local differences in cortical-functional topography and those that cannot. They show that heritability is strongest at slower-evolving neural time scales and is more evident in functional connectivity estimates than in response time series.

      Strengths:

      This is a very thorough paper that tackles this question from several different angles. I very much appreciate the use of hyperalignment to factor out topographic differences, and I found the relationship between heritability and neural time scales very interesting. The writing is clear, and the results are compelling.

      Weaknesses:

      The only "weaknesses" I identified were some points where I think the methods, interpretation, or visualization could be clarified.

      (1) On page 16, the authors compare heritability in functional connectivity (FC) and response time series, and find that the heritability effect is larger in FC. In general, I agree with your diagnosis that this is in large part due to the fact that FC captures the covariance structure across parcels, whereas response time series only diverge in terms of univariate time-point-by-time-point differences. Another important factor here is that (within-subject) FC can be driven by intrinsic fluctuations that occur with idiosyncratic timing across subjects and are unrelated to the stimulus (whereas time-locked metrics like ISC and time-series differences cannot, by definition). This makes me wonder how this connectivity result would change if the authors used intersubject functional connectivity (ISFC) analysis to specifically isolate the stimulus-driven components of functional connectivity (Simony et al., 2016). This, to me, would provide a closer comparison to the ISC and response time series results, and could allow the authors to quantify how much of the heritability in FC is intrinsic versus stimulus-driven. I'm not asking that the authors actually perform this analysis, as I don't think it's critical for the message of the manuscript, but it could be an interesting future direction. As the authors discuss on page 17, I also suspect there's something fundamentally shared between response time series and connectivity as they relate to functional topography (Busch et al., 2021) that drives part of the heritability effect.

      (2) The observation that regions with intermediate ISC have the largest differences between MZ, DZ, and UR is very interesting, but it's kind of hard to see in Figure 1B. Is there any other way to plot this that might make the effect more obvious? For example, I could imagine three scatter plots where the x- and y-axes are, e.g., MZ ISC and UR ISC, and each data point is a parcel. In this kind of plot, I would expect to see the middle values lifted visibly off the diagonal/unity line toward MZ. The authors could even color the data points according to networks, like in Figure 3C. (They also might not need to scale the ISC axis all the way to r = 1, which would make the differences more visible.)

      (3) On page 9, if I understand correctly, the authors regress the vector of ISC values across parcels out of the vector of heritability values across parcels, and then plot the residual heritability values. Do they center the heritability values (or include some kind of intercept) in the process? I'm trying to understand why the heritability values go from all positive (Figure 2A) to roughly balanced between positive and negative (Figure 2B). Important question for me: How should we interpret negative values in this plot? Can the authors explain this explicitly in the text? (I also wonder if there's a more intuitive way to control for ISC. For example, instead of regressing out ISC at the parcel/map level, could they go into a single parcel and then regress the subject-level pairwise ISC values out when computing the heritability score?).

      (4) On page 4 (line 155), the authors say "we shuffled dyad labels"- is this equivalent to shuffling rows and columns of the pairwise subject-by-subject matrix combined across groups? I'm trying to make sure their approach here is consistent with recommendations by Chen et al., 2016. Is this the same kind of shuffling used for the kinship matrix mentioned in line 189?

      (5) I found panel A in Figure 4 to be a little bit misleading because their parcel-wise approach to hyperalignment won't actually resolve topographic idiosyncrasies across a large cortical distance like what's depicted in the illustration (at the scale of the parcels they are performing hyperalignment within). Maybe just move the green and purple brain areas a bit closer to each other so they could feasibly be "aligned" within a large parcel. Worth keeping in mind when writing that hyperalignment is also not actually going to yield a one-to-one mapping of functionally homologous voxels across individuals: it's effectively going to model any given voxel time series as a linear combination of time series across other voxels in the parcel.

      (6) I believe the subjects watched all different movies across the two days, however, for a moment I was wondering "are Day 1 and Day 2 repetitions of the same movies?" Given that Day 1 and Day 2 are an organizational feature of several figures, it might be worth making this very explicit in the Methods and reminding the reader in the Results section.

      References:

      Busch, E. L., Slipski, L., Feilong, M., Guntupalli, J. S., di Oleggio Castello, M. V., Huckins, J. F., Nastase, S. A., Gobbini, M. I., Wager, T. D., & Haxby, J. V. (2021). Hybrid hyperalignment: a single high-dimensional model of shared information embedded in cortical patterns of response and functional connectivity. NeuroImage, 233, 117975. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2021.117975

      Chen, G., Shin, Y. W., Taylor, P. A., Glen, D. R., Reynolds, R. C., Israel, R. B., & Cox, R. W. (2016). Untangling the relatedness among correlations, part I: nonparametric approaches to inter-subject correlation analysis at the group level. NeuroImage, 142, 248-259. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2016.05.023

      Simony, E., Honey, C. J., Chen, J., Lositsky, O., Yeshurun, Y., Wiesel, A., & Hasson, U. (2016). Dynamic reconfiguration of the default mode network during narrative comprehension. Nature Communications, 7, 12141. https://doi.org/10.1038/ncomms12141

    2. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Strengths:

      It's sort of novel to study the heritability of movie-watching fMRI data. The methodology the authors used in the paper is also supportive of their findings. Figures are nicely organized and plotted. They finally found that sensory processing in the human brain is under genetic control over stable aspects of brain function (here referring to neural timescale and resting state connectivity).

      Weaknesses:

      What I am worried about most is the sample size and interpretation of heritability.

      (1) Figure 1. I assumed that the authors just calculated the ISC within each group (MZ, DZ, and UR). Of course, you can get different variations between each group. Therefore, there is heritability. Why not calculate ISC across the whole sample, then separate MZ, DZ, and UR?

      (2) Heritability scores in the paper are sort of small. If the sample size is small, please consider p-values, which will tell more about the trustworthiness of your heritability.

      (3) I don't understand the high-frequency signals in fMRI data. It's always regarded as noise, the band 1 here in particular.

      (4) The statement "we show that the heritability of brain activity patterns can be partially explained by the heritability of the neural timescale" should come from Figure 5. However, after controlling for NT, the heritability decreased max. 0.025 in temporal areas. I am not sure this change supports the statement. If the visual cortex is outlined, and combining ISC changes in the visual cortex, I think this would somehow be answered. Instead of delta h2, adding a new model h2 would be obvious to the readers.

      (5) Figures 7 and 8, when getting the difference of heritability, please also consider the standard errors of the heritability estimates. Then you can compare across networks/regions.

      (6) I think movie VS resting state is a really important result in this paper. However, there is almost no discussion. Discussing this part would be more beneficial for understanding the genetic control over the neuron arousal and excitation circuits.

    1. Non-African-diasporic participants need not feel threatened by the“black music” designation. This is much the same type of historicalsituation that allows us to speak of, say, a “European classical tradi-tion” even if the music is performed in Chicago, composed by HeitorVilla-Lobos, conducted by Seiji Ozawa, and played by Yehudi Menu-hin (or, in the case of his celebrated renditions of the art-music reper-toire, even by Wynton Marsalis). “Blackness,” then, should be takenas a cultural category rather than a genetic one. And if we understandjazz this way, the labels “black music” or “African-American music”are not biologically exclusionary but simply readily discernible histor-ical realities

      I find it very interesting that many conversations today attempt to classify or declassify Jazz as being historically/culturally black music. In its early days, Jazz music faced much criticism from the American press and public, and I think that there is no doubt a large portion of that criticism was either consciously or subconsciously perpetuated by the public’s association of jazz to black culture/people. Originating in New Orleans, a city with a dense black population (largely african-american and creole), the genre was heavily shaped and influenced by black musicians, culture, and history. That being said, people from many different cultures and ethnic backgrounds helped shape jazz music in its early years and onward. Jazz (in early press coverage) was often even regarded as “uneducated,” “vulgar,” and “dirty” music by outsiders (words that no doubt held racial connotations in the early 20th-century South) and did not gain a more universal respect from the media and public until later on. Jazz music was once ostracized and faced overwhelming criticisms, deeming it immoral, at a time when it was regarded as ‘black music’ prior to gaining a more universal respect. Jazz is a genre of music with developmental trajectory that responded to the social and political ideas which surrounded it. In my opinion, trying to undo the label of jazz as culturally “black” music for the sake of perceived inclusion is an unnecessary effort to erase history that played a crucial role in shaping the genre into what it is today. Jazz music had to survive being labeled as “black” music in its early days on its journey to becoming what it is today. In order to examine the cultural origins of jazz music in America, it must be traced back to New Orleans, and it is important to observe the early widespread rejection of jazz music prior to its acclaim, as its development was influenced by the way that jazz musicians responded to its perception. The acknowledgment of jazz music’s culturally black roots does not need to create or lead to feelings of rejection by non black people. I think that jazz can be inclusive while also acknowledging its history.

    1. DisCoCat

      分布式组合范畴语法模型(DisCoCat)是一种将形式语法与分布式语义相结合的框架,利用范畴论统一描述语言的结构和语义。以下是对该模型的详细分步解释:

      1. 理论基础
      2. 组合范畴语法(CCG):处理句法结构,通过范畴的组合(如NP、S等)分析句子构成。
      3. 分布式语义:将词语表示为高维向量,捕捉语义信息。
      4. 范畴论:提供数学结构,通过对象和态射描述组合过程。

      5. 模型结构

      6. 句法范畴与语义空间的映射:每个语法范畴(如NP、VP)对应一个向量空间。例如,名词短语(NP)对应空间\(N\),句子(S)对应空间\(S\)。
      7. 函子映射:将句法范畴的复合操作映射为语义空间的张量运算。例如,及物动词的范畴\((NP\backslash S)/NP\)对应语义空间中的线性映射\(N \otimes N \rightarrow S\),可能表示为三阶张量。

      8. 语义组合示例

      9. 以句子“Alice loves Bob”为例:

        • Alice(NP):向量\(v \in N\)。
        • Bob(NP):向量\(u \in N\)。
        • loves((NP\S)/NP):张量\(L \in N \otimes S \otimes N\)。
        • 组合过程:首先应用动词与宾语,\(L(u)\)得到\(N \rightarrow S\)的映射,再与主语结合,得到最终语义\(L(u)(v) \in S\)。
      10. 数学机制

      11. 张量收缩:通过张量乘积和缩并实现语义组合,如矩阵乘法或高阶张量运算。
      12. 范畴构造:使用紧凑闭范畴等结构,确保句法规则与语义运算一致,如结合律和交换律。

      13. 应用与挑战

      14. 应用领域:语义解析、机器翻译、句子相似度计算,通过结构化的语义表示提升性能。
      15. 挑战:高阶张量的计算复杂度,需降维技术(如张量分解)或近似方法;联合训练句法和语义模型的难度。

      16. 训练方法

      17. 数据驱动:结合句法标注的语料库,端到端训练模型参数。
      18. 联合优化:同步优化句法范畴分配和语义张量,以最小化语义任务损失。

      总结而言,DisCoCat通过范畴论桥接形式句法与分布式语义,利用张量运算捕捉语言组合性,为自然语言处理提供了结构严谨的数学模型,尽管在实现上面临计算复杂性和训练数据的挑战。这一框架在理论语言学与计算语义学中具有重要价值,推动了语言理解系统的发展。

    1. oan, Van Tassel. 1997. "PIPELINE POTPOURRI: CABLERS AND COMPUTER MAKERS GO HEAD-TO-HEAD IN THE LIVING ROOM." The Hollywood Reporter (Archive: 1930-2015), Suppl.Trends and Forecasts 349 (43) (Oct 29): S-4. https://login.libproxy.furman.edu/login?auth=shib&url=https://www.proquest.com/trade-journals/pipeline-potpourri/docview/2469245487/se-2.Hettrick, Scott. 1995. "TCI Feeling @ Home on Internet." The Hollywood Reporter (Archive: 1930-2015) 337 (7) (May 05): 4-4, 79. https://login.libproxy.furman.edu/login?auth=shib&url=https://www.proquest.com/trade-journals/tci-feeling-home-on-internet/docview/2469278742/se-2.Sherman, Jay. 1999. "Microsoft Feels Home in Cable Internet Access." The Hollywood Reporter (Archive: 1930-2015) 357 (41) (May 14): 34. https://www.proquest.com/eima/docview/2469228430/AAEB3952309C47D2PQ/17?accountid=11012&sourcetype=Trade%20Journals

      Great job including additional primary sources! It's helpful to get the industry/trade press perspective

    1. Author Response:

      eLife assessment

      This is a valuable initial study of cell type and spatially resolved gene expression in and around the locus coeruleus, the primary source of the neuromodulator norepinephrine in the human brain. The data are generated with cutting-edge techniques, and the work lays the foundation for future descriptive and experimental approaches to understand the contribution of the locus coeruleus to healthy brain function and disease. However, due to small sample size and the need for additional confirmatory data, the data only incompletely support the main conclusions presented here. With the strengthening of the analyses, this paper, and the associated web application, will be of great interest to neuroscientists working on arousal-based behaviors and neurological and neuropsychiatric phenotypes.

      Thank you for the assessment and comments. Overall, the majority of the issues raised by the reviewers relate either directly or indirectly to limitations of the sample size that precluded further optimization of protocols and expansion of the dataset. We fully acknowledge the limited sample size in this dataset and aim to be transparent about the limitations of the study. This is the first report of snRNA-seq and spatially-resolved transcriptomics in the human locus coeruleus (LC). The LC is a very small nucleus, located deep within the brainstem, which is extremely challenging to study due to its small size, difficult to access location, and the very small number of norepinephrine (NE) neurons located within the nucleus, which were of prime interest for this study. We note that this study represents our initial attempt to molecularly and spatially characterize cell types within the human LC. We note that we did not have significant, established funding from extramural sources dedicated to this study, and tissue resources for the LC are difficult to ascertain, contributing to the small sample size in this initial study. We acknowledge that there are limitations in sample size as well as data quality. Findings from this study will be used to inform, improve, and optimize future and ongoing experimental design, as well as technical and analytical workflows for larger-scale studies. As brought up by one of the reviewers, this field is still in its infancy -- pilot experimentation in new brain regions is labor-intensive and these sequencing approaches remain costly. Moreover, due to the small size and difficulties in dissecting, tissue resources from the human brain in this area are a highly limited resource. Hence, notwithstanding limitations, in our view it is important to release the data for community access at this time. Specific responses to the reviewers’ comments are provided point-by-point in the following sections.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Weber et al. collect locus coeruleus (LC) tissue blocks from 5 neurotypical European men, dissect the dorsal pons around the LC and prepare 2-3 tissue sections from each donor on a slide for 10X spatial transcriptomics. […] The authors transparently present limitations of their work in the discussion, but some points discussed below warrant further attention.

      Specific comments:

      1) snRNAseq:

      a. Major concerns with the snRNAseq dataset are A) the low recovery rate of putative LC-neurons in the snRNAseq dataset, B) the fact that the LC neuron cluster is contaminated with mitochondrial RNA, and C) that a large fraction of the nuclei cannot be assigned to a clear cell type (presumably due to contamination or damaged nuclei). The authors chose to enrich for neurons using NeuN antibody staining and FACS. But it is difficult to assess the efficacy of this enrichment without images of the nuclear suspension obtained before FACS, and of the FACS results. As this field is in its infancy, more detail on preliminary experiments would help the reader to understand why the authors processed the tissue the way they did. It would be nice to know whether omitting the FACS procedure might in fact result in higher relative recovery of LC-neurons, or if the authors tried this and discovered other technical issues that prompted them to use FACS.

      Thank you for these comments. We agree these are valid concerns in assessing the data quality and validity of the findings from the snRNA-seq dataset. We will respond to these concerns here to the best of our ability, but in some cases, we do not have definitive answers since comparison data are not yet available for this region. In particular, we were limited in resources for this initial study -- some of the results of the study and issues that we identified in attempting to molecularly profile cells in the human LC were surprising to us, and we intend to generate additional samples and troubleshoot these issues to improve data quality and increase recovery in future work. However, these experiments are (i) expensive, (ii) time- and labor-intensive, and (iii) the tissue for this region is limited and difficult to ascertain. Given the extremely small size of the LC, the tissue resource is quickly depleted. For this study, we had fixed resources and made best-guess decisions on how to proceed with the experimental design, based on our experience with snRNA-seq in other human brain regions (Tran and Maynard et al. 2021). However, the LC is a unique region, and our experiences with this dataset will guide us to make technical adjustments in future studies. Due to the limitations in the tissue resources and the lack of data currently available to the community, we wanted to share these results immediately while acknowledging the limitations of the study as we work to increase our resource availability to expand molecular and spatial profiling studies in this region of the human brain.

      Regarding the reviewer’s concern that our choice to use FANS to enrich for neurons could have potentially led to more damage and contributed to the low recovery rate of LC-NE neurons and the mitochondrial contamination -- we do not have a definitive answer to this question, since we did not perform a direct comparison with non-sorted data. As noted above, our limited tissue resource dictated that we could not do both. We made the decision to enrich for neurons based on our previous experience with identifying relatively rare populations in other brain regions (e.g. nucleus accumbens and amygdala; Tran and Maynard et al. 2021). Based on this previous work, our rationale was that without neuronal enrichment, we could potentially miss the LC-NE population, given the relative scarcity of this neuronal population. The low recovery rate and relatively lower quality / contamination issues may be due to technical issues that lead to LC-NE neurons being more susceptible to damage during nuclear preparation and sorting. We agree that directly comparing to data prepared without NeuN labeling and sorting is reasonable, as the additional perturbations may indeed contribute to cell damage. As mentioned in the discussion, we do not have a definitive answer to the reasons for increased mitochondrial contamination and we suspect that multiple technical factors may contribute -- including the relatively large size and increased fragility of LC-NE neurons. We agree that systematically optimizing the preparation to attempt to increase recovery rate and decrease mitochondrial contamination are important avenues for future work.

      b. It is unclear what percentage of cells that make up each cluster.

      We will add this information in the clustering heatmaps or as a supplementary plot in a revised version of the manuscript.

      c. The number of subjects used in each analysis was not always clear. Only 3 subjects were used for snRNAseq, and one of them only yielded 4 LC-nuclei. This means the results are essentially based on n=2. The authors report these numbers in the corresponding section, but the first sentence of the results section (and Figure 1C specifically!) create the impression that n=5 for all analyses. Even for spatial transcriptomics, if I understood it correctly, 1 sample had to be excluded (n=4).

      This is correct. We will update the figures and text in a revised version of the manuscript to make this limitation (small sample size) more clear, and to further emphasize that the intention of this study is to provide initial data to help determine next steps and best practices for a larger scale and more comprehensive study on this region, especially given the limited availability of tissue resources and currently limited data resources available for this region.

      2) Spatial transcriptomics:

      a. It is not clear to me what the spatial transcriptomics provides beyond what can be shown with snRNAseq, nor how these two sets of results compare to each other. It would be more intuitive to start the story with snRNAseq and then try to provide spatial detail using spatial transcriptomics. The LC is not a homogeneous structure but can be divided into ensembles based on projection specificity. Spatial transcriptomics could - in theory - offer much-needed insights into the spatial variation of mRNA profiles across different ensembles, or as a first step across the spatial (rostral/caudal, ventral/dorsal) extent of the LC. The current analyses, however, cannot address this issue, as the orientation of the LC cannot be deduced from the slices analyzed.

      We understand the point of the reviewer. However, we structured the manuscript in this format due to our aims of creating a data resource for the community as well as being transparent about the limitations of our study. Our experiments began with the spatial experiments on the tissue blocks because this (i) helped orient ourselves to the region, and (ii) provided guidance for how best to score the tissue blocks for the snRNA-seq experiments to maximize recovery of LC-NE neurons. Therefore, we also decided to present the results in this sequence.

      The spatial data also provides more information in that the measurements are from nuclei, cytoplasm, and cell processes (instead of nuclei only). This is one of the main differences / advantages between the platforms at this level of spatial resolution. As noted above, we were also working with a finite tissue resource -- if we ran snRNA-seq first and captured no neurons, the tissue block would be depleted. Due to the logistics / thickness of the required tissue sections for Visium and snRNA-seq respectively, running Visium first allowed us to ensure that we could collect data from both assays.

      Regarding a point raised below on why we only ran snRNA-seq on a subset of the donors -- this was due to resource depletion and not enough available tissue remaining on the tissue blocks to run the assay. We have conducted extensive piloting in other brain regions on the amount (mg) of tissue that is needed from various sized cryosections, and the LC is particularly difficult since these are small tissue blocks and the extent of the structure is small. Hence, in some of the subjects, we did not have sufficient tissue available for the snRNA-seq assay.

      We agree with the reviewer that spatial studies could, in future work, offer needed and important information about expression profiles across the spatial axes (rostral/caudal, ventral/dorsal) of the LC. Our study provides us with insight about optimizing the dissections for spatial assays, as well as bringing to light a number of technical and logistical issues that we had not initially foreseen. For example, during the course of this study and parallel, ongoing work in other small, challenging brain regions, we have now developed a number of specialized technical and logistical strategies for keeping track of orientation and mounting serial sections from the same tissue block onto a single spatial array, which is extremely technically challenging. We are now well-prepared for addressing these issues in future studies with larger numbers of donors and samples, e.g. spaced serial sections across the extent of the LC to make these types of insights. Due to the rarity of the tissue, limited availability of information in this region, and high expense of conducting these studies, we want to share this initial data with the community immediately. We also note that in addition to the 10x Genomics Visium platform, which lacks cellular and sub-cellular resolution, many new and exciting spatial platforms are entering the market, which may be able to address questions in very small regions such as the LC at higher spatial resolution.

      b. Unfortunately, spatial transcriptomics itself is plagued by sampling variability to a point where the RNAscope analyses the authors performed prove more powerful in addressing direct questions about gene expression patterns. Given that the authors compare their results to published datasets from rodent studies, it is surprising that a direct comparison of genes identified with spatial transcriptomics vs snRNAseq is lacking (unless this reviewer missed this comparison). Supplementary Figure 17 seems to be a first step in that direction, but this is not a gene-by-gene comparison of which analysis identifies which LC-enriched genes. Such an analysis should not compare numbers of enriched genes using artificial cutoffs for significance/fold-change, but rather use correlations to get a feeling for which genes appear to be enriched in the LC using both methods. This would result in one list of genes that can serve as a reference point for future work.

      We agree this is a good suggestion, and will add additional computational analyses to address this point in a revised version of the manuscript.

      c. Maybe the spatial transcriptomics could be useful to look at the peri-LC region, which has generated some excitement in rodent work recently, but remains largely unexplored in humans.

      We agree this is an excellent suggestion -- assessing cross-species comparisons related to convergence, especially, of GABAergic cell populations in the human LC is of high interest. We note that these types of extensions are exactly the reason why we have provided the publicly accessible web app (R/Shiny app, which includes the ability to annotate regions). We hope that others will use these apps for specialized topics they are interested in. As discussed above, we note that our initial dissections precluded the ability to keep track of the exact orientation of our tissue sections on the Visium arrays with respect to their location within the brainstem, so definitive localization of this region across subjects is difficult in our current study. However, it is possible, for example, to investigate whether there is a putative peri-LC region that is densely GABAergic that is homologous with the GABAergic peri-LC region in rodents. We also raise attention to a recent preprint by Luskin and Li et al. (2022), who apply snRNA-seq and spatially-resolved transcriptomics to molecularly define both LC and peri-LC cell types in mice -- in a revised version of our manuscript, we will extend our computational analyses of inhibitory neuronal subtypes in our data (Supplementary Figures 13, 16) to directly compare with those identified in this study in more detail. As noted above, we we have now developed a number of specialized technical and logistical strategies for keeping track of orientation of sections from the tissue block onto a single spatial array, and we feel that combined with optimized dissection strategies for this region and the guide of RNAscope for GABAergic markers on serial sections, that annotating the peri-LC region on spatial arrays in future studies will be possible.

      3) The comparison of snRNAseq data to published literature is laudable. Although the authors mention considerable methodological differences between the chosen rodent work and their own analyses, this needs to be further explained. The mouse dataset uses TRAPseq, which looks at translating mRNAs associated with ribosomes, very different from the nuclear RNA pool analyzed in the current work. The rat dataset used single-cell LC laser microdissection followed by microarray analyses, leading to major technical differences in terms of tissue processing and downstream analyses. The authors mention and reference a recent 10x mouse LC dataset (Luskin et al, 2022), however they only pick some neuropeptides from this study for their analysis of interneuron subtypes (Figure S13). Although this is a very interesting part of the manuscript, a more in-depth analysis of these two datasets would be very useful. It would likely allow for a better comparison between mouse and human, given that the technical approach is more similar (albeit without FACS), and Luskin et al have indicated that they are willing to share their data.

      As noted above, we plan to extend our comparisons with the dataset from Luskin and Li et al. (2022) in a revised version of the manuscript, which will provide a more in-depth cross-species comparison. In addition, we also note that there are some additional recent studies using TRAPseq of LC-NE neurons in a functional context, i.e. treatment vs. control experiments or in model systems (e.g. Iannitelli et al. 2023), which provide new opportunities for understanding disease context using in-depth cross-species comparisons. By providing our dataset and reproducible code, we will enable others to adapt and extend these types of comparisons (i.e. TRAPseq of LC-NE neurons or LC snRNA-seq following functional manipulations or in the context of disease or behavioral models) in the future.

      4) Statements in the manuscript about the unexpected identification of a 5-HT (serotonin) cell-cluster seem somewhat contradictory. Figure S14 suggests that 5-HT markers are expressed in the LC-regions just as much as anywhere else, but the RNAscope image in Figure S15 suggests spatial separation between these two populations. And Figure S17 again suggests almost perfect overlap between the LC and 5HT clusters. Maybe I misunderstood, in which case the authors should better clarify/explain these results.

      In our view, the most likely scenario is that the 5-HT neurons come from contamination from the dorsal raphe nucleus based on spatial separation from the RNAscope images, which we agree are more definitive. As mentioned above, since we do not have definitive documentation for the tissue sections in terms of orientation, it is difficult to say with clarity that the regions are the dorsal raphe and which sub-portion of the dorsal raphe they are. This initial study has now allowed us to optimize and improve our dissection strategy and approaches for retaining documentation of the orientation of the tissue sections from their intact position within the brainstem as they move from cryosection to placement on the array, which will enable us to better annotate regions with definitive anatomical information with respect to the rostral/caudal and dorsal/ventral axes in future experiments. Given that there are reports in the rodent that 5-HT markers have been identified in LC-NE neurons (Iijima 1993; Iijima 1989), and taking into account the technical limitations in our study, we felt that it was premature to definitively conclude in the manuscript that we were sure these signals arose from the dorsal raphe. We will update this language in a revised version of the manuscript to ensure that these limitations are clear (referring to Supplementary Figures S14-15, S17).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The data generated for this paper provides an important resource for the neuroscience community. The locus coeruleus (LC) is the known seed of noradrenergic cells in the brain. Due to its location and size, it remains scarcely profiled in humans. Despite the physically minute structure containing these cells, its impact is wide-reaching due to the known neuromodulatory function of norepinephrine (NE) in processes like attention and mood. As such, profiling NE cells has important implications for most neurological and neuropsychiatric disorders. This paper generates transcriptomic profiles that are not only cell-specific but which also maintain their spatial context, providing the field with a map for the cells within the region.

      Strengths:

      Using spatial transcriptomics in a morphologically distinct region is a very attractive way to generate a map. Overlaying macroscopic information, i.e. a region with greater pigmentation, with its corresponding molecular profile in an unbiased manner is an extremely powerful way to understand the specific cellular and molecular composition of that brain structure.

      The technologies were used with an astute awareness of their limitations, as such, multiple technologies were leveraged to paint a more complete and resolved picture of the cellular composition of the region. For example, the lack of resolution in the spatial transcriptomic platform was compensated by complementary snRNA-seq and single molecule FISH.

      This work has been made publicly available and accessible through a user-friendly application such that any interested researcher can investigate the level of expression of their gene of interest within this region.

      Two important implications from this work are 1) the potential that the gene regulatory profiles of these cells are only partially conserved across species, humans, and rodents, and 2) that there may be other neuromodulatory cell types within the region that were otherwise not previously localized to the LC

      Weaknesses:

      Given that the markers used to identify cells are not as specific as they need to be to definitively qualify the desired cell type, the results may be over-interpreted. Specifically, TH is the primary marker used to qualify cells as noradrenergic, however, TH catalyzes the synthesis of L-DOPA, a precursor to dopamine, which in turn is a precursor for epinephrine and norepinephrine suggesting some of the cells in the region may be dopaminergic and not NE cells. Indeed, there are publications to support the presence of dopaminergic cells in the LC (see Kempadoo et al. 2016, Takeuchi et al., 2016, Devoto et al. 2005). This discrepancy is further highlighted by the apparent lack of overlap per given Visium spots with TH, SCL6A2, or DBH. While the single-nucleus FISH confirms that some of the cells in the region are noradrenergic, others very possibly represent a different catecholamine. As such it is suggested that the nomenclature for the cells be reconsidered.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment, and are aware of the reports suggesting the potential presence of dopaminergic cells in the LC. We initially had the same thought as the reviewer when we observed Visium spots in the spatial data with lack of overlap between TH, SLC6A2, and DBH as well as single nuclei in the snRNA-seq data with lack of overlap between TH, SLC6A2, and DBH. This surprising result was exactly why we performed the smFISH/RNAscope experiment with these three marker genes. Given known issues with read depth and coverage in the 10x Genomics assays, we wanted to better understand if this was a technical limitation in the sequencing coverage, or rather a true biological finding. The RNAscope data showed very clearly that nearly every cell body we looked at had co-localization of these three marker genes. We included an image from a single capture array of one tissue section in Supplementary Figure 11, but could, in a revised version of the manuscript, provide additional examples to illustrate how conclusive the images were by visualization. As such, we were quite convinced that the lack of overlap on Visium spots and in single nuclei in the snRNA-seq data was more likely related to technical issues with sequencing coverage, rather than a biological finding. We also note that we checked for the presence of the dopamine transporter, SLC6A3, and as can be appreciated in the iSEE web app for the snRNA-seq data or the R/Shiny web app for the Visium data, there is virtually no expression of SLC6A3 in the dataset, which in our view provides additional evidence against the possibility that there are substantial quantities of dopaminergic cells in this human LC dataset. We will include supplementary plots showing the lack of SLC6A3 expression in a revised version of the manuscript.

      The authors are unable to successfully implement unsupervised clustering with the spatial data, this greatly reduces the impact of the spatial technology as it implies that the transcriptomic data generated in the study did not have enough resolution to identify individual cell types.

      The reviewer is correct -- this is a fundamental limitation of the 10x Genomics Visium platform, i.e. the spatial resolution captures multiple cells per spot (e.g. around 1-10 cells per spot in human brain tissue). We note that new spatial platforms now provide cellular resolution (e.g. Vizgen MERSCOPE, 10x Genomics Xenium, 10x Genomics Visium HD), which will help address this in future work. However, many of these cellular-resolution in situ sequencing platforms have the limitation that they do not quantify genome-wide expression, and instead require users to select a priori gene panels to investigate. This is a problem if no genome-wide reference datasets are available. Hence, despite the limited spatial resolution of the Visium platform, this dataset is useful precisely for helping investigators choose gene panels for higher-resolution platforms or higher-order smFISH multiplexing.

      We also applied spatial clustering (using BayesSpace; Zhao et al. 2021) to attempt to segment the LC regions within the Visium samples in a data-driven manner as an alternative to the manual annotations, which was unsuccessful (and hence we relied on the manually annotated regions for downstream analyses) (Supplementary Figure S5). However, this is a different application of unsupervised clustering, which is separate from the task of identifying cell types.

      The sample contribution to the results is highly unbalanced, which consequently, may result in ungeneralizable findings in terms of regional cellular composition, limiting the usefulness of the publicly available data.

      We acknowledge the limitations of the work due to the small/unbalanced sample sizes. As mentioned above for Reviewer 1, this was an initial study in this region -- results of which will inform our (and hopefully others’) experimental design and approach to molecular profiling in this difficult to access brain region. Overall, this study was executed with finite tissue and financial resources and was intended to uncover limitations and help develop best practices and design workflows for future studies with larger numbers of donors and samples. Given the limited data availability for this brain region, we wanted to make this dataset available for the research community immediately. In addition, we note that making this genome-wide dataset available will help inform targeted gene panel design for higher-resolution platforms (e.g. 10x Genomics Xenium).

      This study aimed to deeply profile the LC in humans and provide a resource to the community. The combination of data types (snRNA-seq, SRT, smFISH) does in fact represent this resource for the community. However, due to the limitations, of which, some were described in the manuscript, we should be cautious in the use of the data for secondary analysis. For example, some of the cellular annotations may lack precision, the cellular composition also may not reflect the general population, and the presence of unexpected cell types may represent the accidental inclusion of adjacent regions, in this case, serotonergic cells from the Raphe nucleus.

      We agree, and have attempted to explain these limitations in the manuscript. We will clarify the language regarding the interpretation of the annotated cell populations and unexpected cell types, and the limited sample sizes, in a revised version of the manuscript.

      Nonetheless having a well-developed app to query and visualize these data will be an enormous asset to the community especially given the lack of information regarding the region in general.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      […] This study has many strengths. It is the first reported comprehensive map of the human LC transcriptome, and uses two independent but complementary approaches (spatial transcriptomics and snRNA-seq). Some of the key findings confirmed what has been described in the rodent LC, as well as some intriguing potential genes and modules identified that may be unique to humans and have the potential to explain LC-related disease states. The main limitations of the study were acknowledged by the authors and include the spatial resolution probably not being at the single cell level and the relatively small number of samples (and questionable quality) for the snRNA-seq data. Overall, the strengths greatly outweigh the limitations. This dataset will be a valuable resource for the neuroscience community, both in terms of methodology development and results that will no doubt enable important comparisons and follow-up studies.

      Major comments:

      Overall, the discovery of some cells in the LC region that express serotonergic markers is intriguing. However, no evidence is presented that these neurons actually produce 5-HT.

      The reviewer is correct that we did not provide any additional evidence to show that these neurons actually produce 5-HT. As noted above in the response to Reviewer 1, in our view, the most likely explanation is that these neurons are from dorsal raphe contamination on the tissue section. However, due to technical and logistical limitations in this study, we could not definitively say this because we did not clearly track the orientation of the tissue sections, and we did not have remaining tissue sections from all donor tissue blocks to repeat RNAscope experiments. For some of the donors, where we had remaining tissue sections to go back to repeat RNAscope experiments after completion of the snRNA-seq and Visium assays, we could see clear separation of the LC region / LC-NE neuron core from where putative 5-HT neurons were located (Supplementary Figure 15). However, we did not have sufficient tissue resources to map this definitively in all donors, and the orientation and anatomy of each tissue block were not fully annotated.

      Due to the lack of clarity, and the fact that there have been reports that LC-NE neurons express serotonergic markers (Iijima 1993; Iijima 1989), we felt that it was premature to definitively declare that these putative 5-HT neurons that we identified were definitively from the raphe. We will clarify the language around this discrepancy in a revised version of the manuscript to ensure that these limitations are clearly described.

      Concerning the snRNA-seq experiments, it is unclear why only 3 of the 5 donors were used, particularly given the low number of LC-NE nuclear transcriptomes obtained, why those 3 were chosen, and how many 100 um sections were used from each donor. It is also unclear if the 295 nuclei obtained truly representative of the LC population or whether they are just the most "resilient" LC nuclei that survive the process.

      As discussed above for Reviewer 1, the reason we included only 3 of the 5 donors for the snRNA-seq assays was due to the tissue availability on the tissue blocks. We will clarify the language in a revised version of the manuscript to make this limitation more clear. We will also include additional details in the Methods section on the number of 100 μm sections used for each donor (which varied between 10-15, approximating 60-80 mg of tissue).

      The LC displays rostral/caudal and dorsal/ventral differences, including where they project, which functions they regulate, and which parts are vulnerable in neurodegenerative disease (e.g. Loughlin et al., Neuroscience 18:291-306, 1986; Dahl et al., Nat Hum Behav 3:1203-14, 2019; Beardmore et al., J Alzheimer's Dis 83:5-22, 2021; Gilvesy et al., Acta Neuropathol 144:651-76, 2022; Madelung et al., Mov Disord 37:479-89, 2022). It was not clear which part(s) of the LC was captured for the SRT and snRNAseq experiments.

      As discussed above for Reviewer 1, a limitation of this study was that we did not record the orientation of the anatomy of the tissue sections, precluding our ability to annotate the tissue sections with the rostral/caudal and dorsal/ventral axis labels. We agree with the reviewer that additional spatial studies, in future work, could offer needed and important information about expression profiles across the spatial axes (rostral/caudal, ventral/dorsal) of the LC. Our study provides us with insight about optimizing the dissections for spatial assays, as well as bringing to light a number of technical and logistical issues that we had not initially foreseen. For example, during the course of this study and parallel, ongoing work in other, small, challenging regions, we have now developed a number of specialized technical and logistical strategies for keeping track of orientation and mounting serial sections from the same tissue block onto a single spatial array, which is extremely technically challenging. We are now well-prepared for addressing these issues in future studies with larger numbers of donors and samples in order to make these types of insights.

      The authors mention that in other human SRT studies, there are typically between 1-10 cells per expression spot. I imagine that this depends heavily on the part of the brain being studied and neuronal density, but it was unclear how many LC cells were contained in each expression spot.

      The reviewer is correct that we did not include this information in the manuscript. We attempted to apply a computational method to count nuclei contained in each gene expression spot based on analyzing the histological H&E images (VistoSeg; Tippani et al. 2022), which we have developed and previously applied in data from the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC) (Maynard and Collado-Torres et al. 2021). Based on the segmentation using this workflow we observe that the counts in this region are similar to what we observed in the DLPFC, i.e., typically between 1-10 LC cells per expression spot, with approximately 1-2 LC-NE neurons (which are characterized by their large size) per expression spot. However, these analyses had several technical issues related to the images themselves, the relatively large size and pigmentation of LC-NE neurons, and parameter settings that had been optimized for different brain regions. We are currently optimizing this analysis workflow for these images to provide more accurate estimates of cell counts per spot to give readers additional context on the number of nuclei per spot in the annotated LC regions and outside the LC regions in a revised version of the manuscript.

      Regarding comparison of human LC-associated genes with rat or mouse LC-associated genes (Fig. 2D-F), the authors speculate that the modest degree of overlap may be due to species differences between rodents and human and/or methodological differences (SRT vs microarray vs TRAP). Was there greater overlap between mouse and rat than between mouse/rat and human? If so, that is evidence for the former. If not, that is evidence for the latter. Also would be useful for more in-depth comparison with snRNA-seq data from mouse LC: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.06.30.498327v1.

      We will investigate this question and discuss this in updated results in a revised version of the manuscript.

      The finding of ACHE expression in LC neurons is intriguing, especially in light of work from Susan Greenfield suggesting that ACHE has functions independent of ACH metabolism that contributes to cellular vulnerability in neurodegenerative disease.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We were very surprised too by the observed expression of SLC5A7 and ACHE in the LC regions (Visium data) and within the LC-NE neuron cluster (snRNA-seq data), coupled with absence of other typical cholinergic marker genes (e.g. CHAT, SLC18A3), and we do not have a compelling explanation or theory for this. Hence, the work of Susan Greenfield and colleagues suggesting non-cholinergic actions of ACHE, particularly in other catecholaminergic neurons (e.g. dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra) is very interesting. We will include references to this work and how it could inform interpretation of this expression in a revised version of the manuscript (Greenfield 1991; Halliday and Greenfield 2012).

      High mitochondrial reads from snRNA-seq can indicate lower quality. It was not clear why, given the mitochondrial read count, the authors are confident in the snRNA-seq data from presumptive LC-NE neurons.

      We will include additional analyses to further investigate and/or confirm this finding (e.g. comparing sum of UMI counts / number of detected genes and mitochondrial percentage per nucleus for this population to confirm data quality) in additional supplementary figures in a revised version of the manuscript.

      References

      • Greenfield (1991), A noncholinergic action of acetylcholinesterase (AChE) in the brain: from neuronal secretion to the generation of movement, Cellular and Molecular Neurobiology, 11, 1, 55-77.

      • Halliday and Greenfield (2012), From protein to peptides: a spectrum of non-hydrolytic functions of acetylcholinesterase, Protein & Peptide Letters, 19, 2, 165-172.

      • Iannitelli et al. (2023), The neurotoxin DSP-4 dysregulates the locus coeruleus-norepinephrine system and recapitulates molecular and behavioral aspects of prodromal neurodegenerative disease, eNeuro, 10, 1, ENEURO.0483-22.2022.

      • Iijima K. (1989), An immunocytochemical study on the GABA-ergic and serotonin-ergic neurons in rat locus ceruleus with special reference to possible existence of the masked indoleamine cells. Acta Histochema, 87, 1, 43-57.

      • Iijima K. (1993), Chemocytoarchitecture of the rat locus ceruleus, Histology and Histopathology, 8, 3, 581-591.

      • Luskin A.T., Li L. et al. (2022), A diverse network of pericoerulear neurons control arousal states, bioRxiv (preprint).

      • Maynard and Collado-Torres et al. (2021), Transcriptome-scale spatial gene expression in the human dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, Nature Neuroscience, 24, 425-436.

      • Tippani et al. (2022), VistoSeg: processing utilities for high-resolution Visium/Visium-IF images for spatial transcriptomics data, bioRxiv (preprint).

      • Tran M.N., Maynard K.R. et al. (2021), Single-nucleus transcriptome analysis reveals cell-type-specific molecular signatures across reward circuitry in the human brain, Neuron, 109, 3088-3103.

      • Zhao E. et al. (2021), Spatial transcriptomics at subspot resolution with BayesSpace, Nature Biotechnology, 39, 1375-1384.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study shows that when excitatory DREADD receptors are expressed in the ventral area of the cervical spinal cord containing phrenic motoneurons, systemic administration of the DREADD ligand J60 increases diaphragm EMG activity without altering respiratory rate. The authors took a non-selective expression approach in wild-type mice, as well as a more selective Cre-dependent approach in Chat-Cre mice and Chat-Cre rats to stimulate cervical motoneurons in the spinal cord. This is a proof of principle study that supports the use of DREADD technology to stimulate the motor output to the diaphragm.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of the study lie in the use of both mice and rats to test whether the chomogenetic activation of phrenic motoneurons with multiple experimental approaches increases diaphragm EMG activity (both tonic and phasic) and tidal volume.

      Comments on revisions:

      Thanks for addressing my comments. One last comment that could be discussed or addressed is :

      Line 295- was the time post-infection, which varies considerably between groups and across samples, taken into consideration when comparison of response was made between ChatCre mice (4-9 weeks post-infection) and WT mice (four to five weeks post-infection)?

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      Dear Editor,

      Thank you for reviewing our article. We are happy to see that the reviewers are positive on our manuscript. We have tried to address nearly all their comments. Find below a point-by-point answer.

      With best regards,

      Bruno Lemaitre and Asya Dolgikh

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      This work defines NimB1 protein as a PS binding bridging molecule but with a negative regulatory role in efferocytosis. Specifically, the authors demonstrate via a variety of genetic, cell biological, and other approaches that loss of NimB1 leads to Drosophila macrophages being more adherent to apoptotic targets and engulf them more robustly. The authors also nicely demonstrate that the function of NimB1 differs from NimB4, and the double mutant demonstrating PS-binding yet, distinct roles. Further, the authors show that NimB1 does not affect bacterial phagocytosis.

      Overall, this is a well-done study. The authors have already done a very thorough job addressing the key points and I congratulate the authors.

      My only minor comment is that the authors could try to make the comment better about whether or not such a 'negative regulatory' bridging molecules may exist in other species, and particularly mammals. If so, this is quite novel. The authors refer to CD47 but this is a membrane protein. The other minor comment is whether the authors ever tried express the PS binding domains as a fusion protein - this would provide a more direct evidence for the binding to PS (although the authors do competitive inhibition with Annexin V). This could be commented upon although testing this is not necessary if they have not already done so.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s positive feedback. In the revised manuscript, we have now included a more detailed discussion of mammalian proteins with analogous roles, specifically referencing Draper isoforms (I and II), the CD300 receptor family, and surfactant proteins A and B (see page 16).

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      The identification of the negative regulator bridging protein NimB1 is novel and could be broadly interesting to those studying efferocytosis.

      Regarding the suggestion to overexpress just the putative PS-binding domain of NimB1, we agree this could strengthen the evidence for its PS-binding function. However, generating a new transgenic fly line would require significant additional time. Moreover, the presence of a PS-binding motif was also proposed in the recent study on Orion (Ji et al., 2023), which we have cited in our manuscript. The Orion binds PS through a conserved RRY motif. This motif is critical for Orion’s ability to directly interact with PS and facilitate its secretion. Mutagenesis experiments disrupting the RRY motif—specifically substituting arginine residues with alanines—abolished Orion’s PS-binding capacity, demonstrating the essential role of this sequence. Functional assays also validated that Orion competes with Annexin V, a well-established PS-binding protein, for access to PS-exposing surfaces (Ji et al., 2023).

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary:

      In this study, Dolgikh and colleagues propose a first investigation about the role of the drosophila Nimrod protein NimB1. Although the role of several members of the family in phagocytosis has been explored, the function of Nimrod type B proteins is less addressed. Within silico analysis, they first see a strong similarity between NimB1 and NimB4. They show that NimB1 is primarily expressed in phagocytes, and as NimB4 can bind phosphatidylserines (PS), leading to a possible shared role in efferocytosis. Using transgenic and null drosophila models, the authors then compare the impact of NimB1 overexpression or deficiency. They compare the effects shown to NimB4 and Draper deficient lines, as these two proteins were previously shown to play a role in efferocytosis. They propose that NimB1 is a secreted protein that binds apoptotic cells. They show that NimB1 deficiency changes the adhesion properties of macrophages. The major finding is that NimB1 delays the early stages of efferocytosis, contrary to NimB4 and Draper that on the contrary facilitate efferocytosis. In contrast, the authors propose that NimB1 increases the formation of phagosomes.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s acknowledgment that our key discovery centered around NimB1 functioning as a negative regulator of efferocytosis. This finding highlights NimB1’s distinct role compared to NimB4 and Draper, which instead promote the process.

      Major comments:

      One of the major technical challenges here was to generate models to allow the detection of the protein in cellulo and in vivo. Although the results are convincing in transgenic lines NimB1 expression is driven by the endogenous promoter, one could still argue that the GFP tags would lead to changes in the localization of the protein.

      We understand the concern regarding potential localization changes introduced by GFP tags. However, in previous studies, the same fosmid construct was applied to NimB4-sGFP, and produced a distinctly different expression pattern—NimB4-sGFP expression was more pronounced and clearly present in the glial cells in the brain (Petrignani et al, 2021: Figure EV1A). The fact that the NimB1-sGFP and NimB4-sGFP fosmids localized to different tissues suggests that possible any mis-localization changes due to the GFP tag do not override localization properties intrinsic to the proteins.

      In line with the previous comment, to show that NimB1 is a secreted protein, the authors use an overexpression model. How to be sure, that overexpression itself does not lead to increased secretion, or shedding from the membrane?

      The observation that uas-NimB1-RFP accumulates in the nephrocytes upon Lpp-Gal4 (fat body) expression, and the presence of a signal peptide suggests that this protein can be secreted.

      We cannot exclude that in endogenous condition, NimB1, remains attached to hemocytes. We have confirmed that the Lpp driver is not expressed in nephrocytes.

      Would an experiment with a control consisting in a known protein secreted by macrophages lead to the same staining pattern (positive control)? Could another methodology like a Western Blot on supernatants from hemocyte cell culture (over)expressing NimB1, with an anti-RFP staining, be envisaged?

      We have already performed similar experiment with other secreted proteins such as NimB4-GFP (Petrignani et al., 2021: Figure: 1B). In the revised article, we have added Viking-RFP as a positive control of a secreted protein (Figure S1F). Figure S2 shows a Western blot with hemolymph extract. We detected NimB1-RFP at its expected molecular weight of 44 kDa, verifying that is present into the hemolymph (Supplementary Document S2 C).

      It sems counterintuitive that phagocytes from Draper and NimB4 null mutants with defects in efferocytosis show increased load of apoptotic cells (Figure 6C and D in both unchallenged and injury condition). Do the authors have precedent data to cite going to the same direction? Are cell debris engulfed but not degraded efficiently?

      The observation that Draper and NimB4 null mutants have an increased load of apoptotic cells has already been reported in the literature. Several studies have now shown that Draper is not always required for the initial uptake of apoptotic corpses but is critical for phagosome maturation (Meehan et al., 2016; Serizier et al., 2022; Serizier & McCall, 2017). In our article on NimB4 (Petrignani et al., 2021), we have previously shown that the accumulation of immature phagosomes that are not properly eliminated indirectly impairs the uptake of new apoptotic corpses. This explains why efferocytosis is then impaired only at late time points, when unresolved phagosomes have accumulated to the threshold that prevents further phagocytosis.

      In Figure 6D it seems indeed that NimB4, NimB1/NimB4 and Draper mutants do not accumulate more apoptotic material upon injury. However, levels for NimB4 is close to the one obtained with NimB1 mutants. Is it statistically true? If yes, what could be the reason for this similarity? In any case, as some important conclusion relies on the comparison between UC and injury conditions, adequate statistics and representations could be proposed.

      We thank the reviewer for this pertinent observation and the opportunity to clarify. In the unchallenged (UC) condition, NimB4sk2 and draperΔ5 mutants indeed exhibit significantly elevated levels of apoptotic cell (AC) content in macrophages compared to wild-type and NimB1 mutant genotypes (****p crimic and NimB1229/NimB1crimic* mutants show significantly lower levels in the UC condition, consistent with a role for NimB1 in early recognition or regulation of phagocytic initiation, not in corpse degradation.

      In contrast, upon injury (90 minutes post-challenge) we observe a statistically significant increase in apoptotic material in NimB1 mutants compared to UC hemocytes of the same genotype (****p sk2 and draperΔ5* mutants between the UC and 90 min conditions (ns for NimB4). This is consistent with their known defect in corpse degradation, which results in saturation of phagocytic capacity at baseline, and an inability to respond further upon challenge with apoptotic cells.

      While the absolute levels of apoptotic material in injured NimB1 and UC NimB4 mutants appear similar at first glance, statistical testing confirms that they are significantly different. NimB4 mutant macrophages retain apoptotic debris due to defective degradation, whereas NimB1 mutants have an increase in newly acquired apoptotic content due to enhanced uptake.

      Additionally, NimB161, NimB4sk2 double mutants display a partial increase in apoptotic load upon injury (****p To directly address the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now recalculated and visualized key comparisons with appropriate statistical testing, as shown in Revision Figure 1. All statistical analyses were conducted using unpaired two-tailed Student’s t-tests. This additional figure allows clearer evaluation of genotype-specific differences at both baseline and post-injury conditions and supports our conclusions that NimB1 and NimB4 regulate distinct stages of phagocytosis. We have also clarified the text to better explain that both NimB4 and Draper mutants accumulate unresolved apoptotic material under baseline conditions, and do not accumulate further material upon challenge, due to a block in phagosome maturation.

      Revisions Figure 1.

      __Quantification of phagocytic events in wild-type and mutant macrophages under unchallenged and post-injury conditions __

      (A) Comparison of phagocytic events per frame in w1118 (wild-type), NimB1crimic, NimB1229/NimB1crimic, NimB4sk2, NimB161,NimB4 sk2, and draperΔ5 larvae under unchallenged conditions (UC) and 90 minutes after injury (90 min). Data are presented as individual data points with means. Statistical significance was determined using Student's t-test (*P (B) Direct comparison of phagocytic events between NimB1crimic (red) and NimB4sk2 (gray), and between NimB1229/crimic (dark red) and NimB4sk2 (gray) under both unchallenged (UC) and post-injury (90 min) conditions.

      The authors claim with analyses of Figure 8C and D, that NimB1 mutants show acidic vehicles normal in size and fluorescence intensity. However, statistical differences are still observed compared to control condition, which is also seen in representative images shown.

      In Figure 8C and D, we provide two quantitative measures to clarify the size and intensity of acidic vesicles. First, we show that mean fluorescence in hemocytes is elevated for all NimB and draper mutants compared to wild type, indicating an overall increase in internalized material. However, we also quantified the number of vesicles per hemocyte and found that NimB1 mutants exhibit significantly more vesicles. Despite this increase, the representative images do not show an obvious enlargement of individual vesicles, suggesting that while more material is being taken up, the vesicles themselves are not enlarged. The enlarged vesicles in case of NimB4 or draper mutant would result from the unresolved cargo (Petrignani et al., 2021). This distinction underscores that higher fluorescence values reflect increased cargo internalization, rather than the larger vesicular structures that result from impaired degradation as in NimB4 or draper mutants.

      Minor comments:

      In figure 2D, what allows to say the expression is restricted in macrophages? Is it the colocalization with SIMU being a macrophage-specific marker?

      In Figure 2D, we relied on SIMU as a macrophage-specific marker in Drosophila embryos to determine that NimB1 expression is restricted to macrophages. Previous research has demonstrated that SIMU is predominantly expressed in embryonic macrophages (where it is essential for apoptotic cell clearance) (Kurant et al., 2008; Roddie et al., 2019). Consequently, the colocalization of NimB1 signal with SIMU-positive cells strongly indicates that NimB1 is confined to macrophages during this developmental stage.

      In figure S3B and C, it appears that double NimB1/NimB4 mutants exhibit less spreading than single ones (especially NimB4). Is it the case (statistical significance). If yes what could be the explanation?

      Yes, the double NimB1, NimB4 mutants exhibit higher number of hemocytes and significantly reduced cell spreading compared to single mutants. The phenotype is similar to NimC1, eater double mutants (Melcarne et al., 2019) which also show higher number of hemocytes, reduced cell spreading and also diminished capacity to phagocytose apoptotic cells (and, in the case of NimC1, Eater, bacteria as well) (Melcarne et al., 2019). A likely explanation lies in impaired membrane remodeling critical for pseudopod extension and phagosome formation. Studies have shown that defects in actin polymerization or membrane tension can hinder pseudopod extension, reducing phagocytic efficiency (Lee et al., 2007; Masters et al., 2013). Same for the decreased ability of these mutants to form filopodium, a process essential for effective target engagement and engulfment. Filopodia play a significant role in capturing particles and directing them toward the macrophage body for engulfment (Horsthemke et al., 2017). Disruptions in these pathways lead to reduced phagocytic efficiency and a more rounded macrophage morphology, as the cells fail to spread properly (Horsthemke et al., 2017; Lillico et al., 2018). Other than these general observations, we do not have an explanation as to why NimB1, NimB4 double mutants specifically show a higher number of hemocytes and reduced cell spreading.

      Several graphs are identical between figure 4 and S4. It is probably not useful and complicates reading.

      We agree that duplicating these graphs complicates the presentation. Therefore, we have removed the redundant graphs in the supplementary materials, ensuring the data are shown only once to maintain clarity and ease of reading

      As TEM images shown in Figure 8B do not lead to quantitative data, I would put it as supplementary file.

      We agree that the TEM images in Figure 8B do not provide strictly quantitative data. To streamline the main manuscript, we have relocated these images to the supplementary section in the revised version

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      This study uses several approaches and models to address the role of NimB1 in efferocytosis. Both In Vitro and In Vivo approaches are proposed. They give insight into the role of this protein with unknown function so far. Some statistical analysis could be performed to improve the clarity of conclusions. One of the important aspects is the secreted nature of NimB1.However, additional approaches could be proposed to confirm this.

      Basic immunologists and cell biologists would be interested in reading this article that highlights the delicate equilibrium between pro and anti-efferocytosis molecules.

      I am an immunologist/cell biologist with expertise in lysosomal catabolism. As I work on mouse models or Human samples, my mastering of drosophila as a model is limited.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our work. In this revision, we have added further detail to clarify the properties of NimB1 as a secreted protein and strengthen our data presentation. By providing additional clarity on methods and interpretations, we hope immunologists and cell biologists—including those who do not routinely work with Drosophila—will find our findings more accessible.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      This paper investigates the role of NimB1, a secreted member of the Nimrod family in Drosophila, in the process of efferocytosis, the clearance of apoptotic cells by macrophages. Previous studies have identified NimB4, another secreted Nimrod protein, as a positive regulator of efferocytosis, enhancing both apoptotic cell binding and phagosome maturation. In contrast, the authors propose that NimB1 functions as a negative regulator, slowing down the early stages of apoptotic cell binding and internalization. This regulatory balance is suggested to fine-tune efferocytosis to maintain homeostasis.

      The primary aim of this study was to characterize the function of NimB1 to better understand the roles of proteins within the NimB family.

      This study identifies a novel function for NimB1 in modulating the early stages of efferocytosis, adding to our understanding of how Nimrod proteins fine-tune apoptotic cell clearance. The authors establish a clear phenotypic contrast between NimB1 and NimB4, which provides a compelling framework for understanding how positive and negative regulators coordinate phagocytosis. It also highlights the multiple roles of the secreted members of the Nimrod scavenger receptor family, which have remained so far poorly investigated.

      This is an interesting study that could be strengthened by additional validation and broader experimental support. As the authors point out in the discussion, it is known that PS bridging molecules contribute to phagocytosis and that the contribution of positive and negative players finely tune phagocytosis in flies and mammals. Clarifying the mode of action of NimB1 in those processes would higher the impact of this interesting piece of work. For example, does NimB1 interact with NimB4 and if so, what is the role of this interaction? How does NimB1 integrate in the signaling cascade that allows scavenger receptors to bind PS? Does it act similar to Orion by enhancing the PS binding of a scavenger receptor?

      Key Findings • NimB1 and NimB4 are structurally similar, as supported by AlphaFold2 modeling, suggesting functional relatedness. • NimB1 is expressed in macrophages, secreted into the hemolymph, and binds apoptotic cells in a phosphatidylserine (PS)-dependent manner. • NimB1 is induced by challenge. • NimB1 mutants display a hyper-phagocytic phenotype, with faster recognition and internalization of apoptotic cells. • NimB1 loss enhances macrophage adhesion and actin remodeling, while bacterial phagocytosis remains unaffected, suggesting a specific role in apoptotic clearance. • NimB1 acts early in the phagocytic process, while NimB4 functions at later stages, particularly in phagosome maturation.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive assessment and are pleased that our findings identify NimB1 as a novel secreted negative regulator of efferocytosis, underscoring a greater level of regulatory complexity in apoptotic cell clearance.

      Unfortunately, attempts to produce functional NimB1 protein were not successful, limiting our ability to address some of the reviewer’s suggestions experimentally. Despite these challenges, the evidence we present—particularly from our genetic assays—clearly indicates that NimB1 exerts an inhibitory influence during the early steps of apoptotic cell binding, distinguishing it from the late-stage promoting function of NimB4.

      Major comments:

      Figure 1: AlphaFold is a valuable tool for generating hypotheses, however predicted structures should not be presented as definitive evidence of similarity, particularly without complementary experimental validation. This section would be stronger if the structural predictions were explicitly framed as predictions. In the absence of such data, the interpretation should be toned down.

      We agree with the reviewer and we have now framed our observation as prediction and toned down our interpretation. We also note that the similarities between NimB4 and NimB1 are also underlined by the phylogenetic analysis and expression pattern.

      Figure 2DE: Given its basal level in homeostatic conditions, it would have been useful to look at the NimB1-GFP upon challenge. Also, the authors show only a single larval macrophage with no comparison point. To strengthen this result, the authors could include another protein quantification method, such as western blotting. Alternatively, labelling of NimB1>UASmRFP in embryo that present the highest expression levels would also strengthen this result.

      Unfortunately, we cannot currently perform additional experiments on embryos within the scope of this project because those experiments were performed by our collaborators in Haifa (Estee Kurant Lab). Repeating them would require sending the lines to their lab and accommodating their experimental schedule and manpower constraints.

      In supplementary Figure S1F: the authors overexpress NimB1-RFP using the fat body driver Lpp-Gal4 and show larvae with RFP in the nephrocyte. Could filet preparations be shown? Could the authors present evidence that the Lpp driver is not expressed in the nephrocytes (or refer to literature)?

      The Lpp-Gal80 driver is described as fat body-specific and has been used to manipulate gene expression in the fat body in many other studies. We have checked Lpp-Gal80>UAS-GFP expression in larvae and did not observe expression in larval nephrocytes. The whole live larvae were observed under the microscope with no prior filet preparations. To provide the evidence that Lpp is not expressed in the nephrocytes we are providing the images of the whole larvae expressing GPF from the Lpp, as per genotype: Lgg-Gal80>UAS-GFP (see below, Revisions Figure 2).


      Revisions Figure 2.

      __Expression pattern of Lpp-Gal80>UAS-GFP in Drosophila larvae __

      Representative fluorescence microscopy images showing GFP expression driven by the Lpp-Gal80 system in Drosophila larvae. The images display dorsal (top) and ventral (bottom) views of the same larva, demonstrating the pattern of expression throughout the fat body tissue. Green fluorescence indicates cells expressing the GFP reporter under the control of the Lpp promoter, which is predominantly active in the larval fat body.

      The results on the increased number of hemocytes observed in the double NimB1, NimB4 mutant animals (Figure S3A) remains not only disconnected from the rest of the data but also unexplained. Providing a mechanistic view may require a significant amount of work that may indicate an additional role of the two NimBs but will not add to our understanding of the role of NimB1 in phagocytosis. Nevertheless, it would be at least useful to know whether in the double mutant the lymph gland is still intact, as its precocious histolysis could account for the elevated number of hemocytes. If that were the case, that could indicate that lacking the two NimBs triggers an inflammatory state that affects the lymph gland, meaning that the pathway controlling phagocytosis also has a systemic impact on development. When checking the representative Figure S4D, it seems that very large cells are present in the double mutants, even larger than in the single mutants. These could be (pre)lamellocytes, which constitute activated hemocytes, known to impact the status of the lymph gland. If the enhanced number of hemocytes does not depend on lymph gland histolysis, a simple immunolabeling with the anti-PH3 antibody would assess the proliferative phenotype of the double mutant hemocytes. At least this piece of data would provide a better explanation for the observed phenotype.

      We thank the reviewer for this interesting comment. We cannot explain why NimB1, NimB4 double mutants have more hemocytes. It is unclear to us if this is a secondary consequence of defects in efferocytosis or linked to another function of these two NimBs, such as a role in adhesion. We did look at the lymph gland and our preliminary observations suggest that NimB1, NimB4 double mutants have an easily ruptured or fragile lymph gland, which could explain the higher number and the roundish shape of hemocytes in circulation as proposed by the reviewer. Lacking expertise on lymph gland, we prefer not to include this data, as they are not central to the main message of this article on role of NimB1 on efferocytosis. We have also noted the presence of lamellocytes in unchallenged NimB1, NimB4 double mutant larvae, as well as excessive lamellocyte production compared to controls upon clean injury (see below, Revisions Figure 3). We have mentioned the presence of lamellocytes in NimB1, NimB4 double mutants in the revised version. We prefer not include this new data directly in the article because this not central to the main message of the article.


      __Revisions Figure 3. __

      A.

      B.

      Lamellocyte recruitment following a clean injury in L3 Drosophila larvae:

      (A) Quantification of lamellocytes per 50 frames of x63 microscopy lens in w1118 (wild-type), NimB1crimic, NimB4sk2, NimB161, NimB4sk2, and draperΔ5 larvae under unchallenged conditions (UC) and 3 hours after clean injury (3h). Arrowheads indicate lamellocytes.

      (B) Representative confocal microscopy images of hemocytes isolated from challenged NimB161, NimB4sk2 larvae. Cells were fixed and stained with Phalloidin (green) to label F-actin and DAPI (blue) to visualize nuclei. The smaller inset (40x magnification) shows a detailed view of individual lamellocytes with characteristic morphology, while the larger field (20x magnification) displays the overall view on the hemocytes. Scale bar = 50 μm.

      Figure 6: The connection between the ex-vivo (Figure 5) and in vivo (Figure 6) assays should be clarified. In the first type of assay, the lack of NimB4 results in reduced internalization (while lack of NimB1 enhances it). In the in vivo assay, more fragments are seen within the cell (hence internalized), using the NimB4 mutant. Also, in the ex-vivo assay, the lack of NimB1 does not affect the first steps ('attachment' and 'membrane'), while NimB4 does, yet it is proposed that NimB1 acts in the early steps (page 11-12). In that case, wouldn't we expect the double mutant NimB1 NmB4 to have the NimB1 phenotype?

      The apparent discrepancy between our ex vivo and in vivo assays reflects the different methodologies and what each assay measures. In the ex vivo assay (Figure 4), we add exogenous fluorescently-labeled apoptotic cells to measure new engulfment events. Here, NimB4 mutant macrophages show reduced phagocytic index because they are already saturated with unresolved phagosomes, limiting their capacity to uptake additional corpses, as previously described by (Petrignani et al., 2021). This reduced uptake capacity is reflected in the decreased phagocytic index observed.

      In contrast, our in vivo assay (Figure 6) uses DAPI staining to visualize all internalized material, including previously engulfed debris. As expected, we observe accumulation of DAPI signals in NimB4 mutant macrophages under unchallenged conditions, reflecting their inability to process and clear phagosomes rather than enhanced engulfment. This phenotype highlights the role of NimB4 in phagosome maturation rather than initial uptake.

      Regarding the role of NimB1 in early phagocytic steps, while attachment and membrane measurements in the ex vivo assay don't show significant differences in NimBcrimic mutants individually, our other experiments demonstrate that NimB1 functions as a negative regulator during early recognition phases. The predominance of the NimB4 phenotype in the NimB1crimic, NimB4 double mutant parallels observations in draper mutants, where double mutants lacking both Draper I (positive regulator) and Draper II (negative regulator) display the Draper I phenotype (Logan et al., 2012). This suggests that phagosome maturation defects (the NimB4 phenotype) present a more severe bottleneck in the phagocytic process than enhanced early uptake (the NimB1crimic phenotype), explaining why the double mutant primarily exhibits accumulation of unresolved phagosomes rather than accelerated uptake. We have re-written this part of the article to clarify these points (see page 11).

      Figure 8A: a definition of the phagocytic cup mentioned in the text (page 12, 2nd paragraph) as well as the homogenization of the scale bars in Figure 8A would clarify the interpretation of Figure 8A. The structures shown for w1118 seem quite distant from the structures highlighted for NimB1crimic.

      According to reviewer 2, we have now moved this figure to the supplement. The reviewer is correct and we have modified the associated text to clarify the interpretation of the images (see page 12-13).

      The same scale should be used across different panels in Figure 8. This is particularly important since the authors mention the size of the lysotracker vesicles to conclude on their levels of maturity. This data and conclusions would be strengthened by a quantification of the vacuole sizes and the combination with markers of phagosome/lysosome maturation levels. It would help disentangling the complementary roles of NimB1 and NimB4.

      The scale bar has been homogenized.

      Minor comments:

      Figure 2BC: is there a particular reason to shift from Rp49 to Rpl32 as normalizing gene in Figure 2B and C? This prevents the comparison of NimB1 expression levels across the different graphs.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this point. We changed the housekeeping gene from Rp49 to RPL32 in Figure 2C to unify the normalization strategy across all experiments and allow comparisons throughout the manuscript.

      Page 9, 2nd paragraph and Figure S3C: the authors mention "Actin structure revealed an increased ratio of filopodia to lamellipodia across all mutants". A clear definition of the parameters defining filopodia and lamellipodia is required to fully appreciate the meaning of the ratio.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. To address this comment, we have included a clear definition of the parameters used to distinguish filopodia and lamellipodia on page 9. In particular, in the revised version we now specify that filopodia were defined as thin, spike-like actin-rich protrusions, while lamellipodia were defined as broad, sheet-like structures at the cell periphery. These criteria were applied consistently for quantification.

      Figure S5B: a bar is missing in the right graph (% of cells containing AC, NimB1>UAS-NimB1-RFP). Page 10 2nd paragraph. The authors mention "draper mutants displayed impaired apoptotic cell binding and engulfment" referring to Figure 4. Figure S4 provide a more convincing illustration of this statement, since the decreased phagocytic index in Drpr KO is mostly due to less cells phagocytosing and not less material phagocytosed.

      We thank the reviewer for the careful examination. In Figure S5B, the missing bar was due to its color being too close to the background color, making it difficult to distinguish. We have now corrected this by adjusting the color to ensure it is clearly visible.

      Regarding the comment on page 10, we agree that Figure S4 more clearly illustrates the impaired apoptotic cell binding and engulfment observed in draper mutants, particularly through the reduced percentage of hemocytes engaging in phagocytosis. We have now clarified the statement in the text to ensure consistency and to guide the reader appropriately to Figure S4 (10).

      Figure 6: not easy to distinguish the DAPI labelling relative to the nucleus vs. that of apoptotic fragments.

      This is a good point. We have changed the images for clearer demonstration of the DAPI labelling. See Figure 6.

      Figure 7B: the number of cells used to generate the violin plot should be indicated in the legend or the method section.

      We have mentioned the number of cells used in the quantification (n-50 per genotype) in the figure legend.

      A schematic figure recapitulating the data would help

      We have added a schematic figure recapitulating the data. See Figure 9 with associated text.

      Page 11 last line: homeostatic rather than hemostatic.

      Thank you for this comment. We have changed it.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      This study identifies a novel function for NimB1 in modulating the early stages of efferocytosis, adding to our understanding of how Nimrod proteins fine-tune apoptotic cell clearance. The authors establish a clear phenotypic contrast between NimB1 and NimB4, which provides a compelling framework for understanding how positive and negative regulators coordinate phagocytosis. It also highlights the multiple roles of the secreted members of the Nimrod scavenger receptor family, which have remained so far poorly investigated.

      This is an interesting study that could be strengthened by additional validation and broader experimental support. As the authors point out in the discussion, it is known that PS bridging molecules contribute to phagocytosis and that the contribution of positive and negative players finally tune phagocytosis in flies and mammals. Clarifying the mode of action of NimB1 in those processes would higher the impact of this interesting piece of work. For example, does NimB1 interact with NimB4 and if so, what is the role of this interaction? How does NimB1 integrate in the signaling cascade that allows scavenger receptors to bind PS? Does it act similar to Orion by enhancing the PS binding of a scavenger receptor?

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comments and suggestions. Indeed, understanding the mode of action of NimB1 in the regulation of efferocytosis would significantly strengthen the impact of our findings. Our data, supported by structural and phylogenetic analyses, indicate that NimB1 and NimB4 share a conserved phosphatidylserine (PS)-binding motif, suggesting that these proteins may interact functionally. Preliminary biochemical observations, together with structural predictions, raise the possibility of a direct or indirect interaction between NimB1 and NimB4, although this remains to be experimentally confirmed.

      Our observations from NimB1 and NimB4 double mutants reveal that the phenotype closely resembles that of NimB4 single mutants, indicating that NimB4 plays a dominant role in the downstream maturation steps of phagosome processing. These findings are consistent with a model in which NimB1 may modulate early phagocytic uptake, possibly by competing with NimB4 for PS binding or by limiting NimB4 accessibility to apoptotic cells, thereby fine-tuning the rate of efferocytosis.

      Regarding the integration into the signaling cascade, while NimB1 and Orion both recognize PS, our data suggest that they function through distinct mechanisms. Orion enhances PS binding to Draper receptor isoforms to promote apoptotic corpse recognition. In contrast, NimB1 appears to act as an inhibitory modulator, potentially masking PS or limiting receptor engagement, thus slowing the phagocytic response. Further functional studies, including receptor-binding assays, will be important to determine whether NimB1 acts by altering receptor-ligand interactions or through a different regulatory pathway.

      Future experiments investigating the potential direct interactions between NimB1 and NimB4, their respective affinities for PS, and their influence on phagocytic receptor dynamics will be necessary to better understand NimB1’s precise mode of action. Such studies will help clarify how secreted regulators fine-tune efferocytosis in Drosophila and may offer broader insights into conserved principles of phagocytic regulation across species.

      __ __

      List of References:

      Horsthemke, M., Bachg, A. C., Groll, K., Moyzio, S., Müther, B., Hemkemeyer, S. A., Wedlich-Söldner, R., Sixt, M., Tacke, S., Bähler, M., & Hanley, P. J. (2017). Multiple roles of filopodial dynamics in particle capture and phagocytosis and phenotypes of Cdc42 and Myo10 deletion. The Journal of Biological Chemistry, 292(17), 7258–7273. https://doi.org/10.1074/jbc.M116.766923

      Ji, H., Wang, B., Shen, Y., Labib, D., Lei, J., Chen, X., Sapar, M., Boulanger, A., Dura, J.-M., & Han, C. (2023). The Drosophila chemokine–like Orion bridges phosphatidylserine and Draper in phagocytosis of neurons. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 120(24), e2303392120. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2303392120

      Kurant, E., Axelrod, S., Leaman, D., & Gaul, U. (2008). Six-Microns-Under Acts Upstream of Draper in the Glial Phagocytosis of Apoptotic Neurons. Cell, 133(3), 498–509. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2008.02.052

      Lee, W. L., Mason, D., Schreiber, A. D., & Grinstein, S. (2007). Quantitative Analysis of Membrane Remodeling at the Phagocytic Cup. Molecular Biology of the Cell, 18(8), 2883–2892. https://doi.org/10.1091/mbc.E06-05-0450

      Lillico, D. M. E., Pemberton, J. G., & Stafford, J. L. (2018). Selective Regulation of Cytoskeletal Dynamics and Filopodia Formation by Teleost Leukocyte Immune-Type Receptors Differentially Contributes to Target Capture During the Phagocytic Process. Frontiers in Immunology, 9. https://doi.org/10.3389/fimmu.2018.01144

      Masters, T. A., Pontes, B., Viasnoff, V., Li, Y., & Gauthier, N. C. (2013). Plasma membrane tension orchestrates membrane trafficking, cytoskeletal remodeling, and biochemical signaling during phagocytosis. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 110(29), 11875–11880. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1301766110

      Meehan, T. L., Joudi, T. F., Timmons, A. K., Taylor, J. D., Habib, C. S., Peterson, J. S., Emmanuel, S., Franc, N. C., & McCall, K. (2016). Components of the Engulfment Machinery Have Distinct Roles in Corpse Processing. PLOS ONE, 11(6), e0158217. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0158217

      Melcarne, C., Ramond, E., Dudzic, J., Bretscher, A. J., Kurucz, É., Andó, I., & Lemaitre, B. (2019). Two Nimrod receptors, NimC1 and Eater, synergistically contribute to bacterial phagocytosis in Drosophila melanogaster. The FEBS Journal, 286(14), 2670–2691. https://doi.org/10.1111/febs.14857

      Petrignani, B., Rommelaere, S., Hakim-Mishnaevski, K., Masson, F., Ramond, E., Hilu-Dadia, R., Poidevin, M., Kondo, S., Kurant, E., & Lemaitre, B. (2021). A secreted factor NimrodB4 promotes the elimination of apoptotic corpses by phagocytes in Drosophila. EMBO Reports, 22(9), e52262. https://doi.org/10.15252/embr.202052262

      Roddie, H. G., Armitage, E. L., Coates, J. A., Johnston, S. A., & Evans, I. R. (2019). Simu-dependent clearance of dying cells regulates macrophage function and inflammation resolution. PLoS Biology, 17(5), e2006741. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.2006741

      Serizier, S. B., & McCall, K. (2017). Scrambled Eggs: Apoptotic Cell Clearance by Non-Professional Phagocytes in the Drosophila Ovary. Frontiers in Immunology, 8, 1642. https://doi.org/10.3389/fimmu.2017.01642

      Serizier, S. B., Peterson, J. S., & McCall, K. (2022). Non-autonomous cell death induced by the Draper phagocytosis receptor requires signaling through the JNK and SRC pathways. Journal of Cell Science, 135(20), jcs250134. https://doi.org/10.1242/jcs.250134

    2. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      This paper investigates the role of NimB1, a secreted member of the Nimrod family in Drosophila, in the process of efferocytosis, the clearance of apoptotic cells by macrophages. Previous studies have identified NimB4, another secreted Nimrod protein, as a positive regulator of efferocytosis, enhancing both apoptotic cell binding and phagosome maturation. In contrast, the authors propose that NimB1 functions as a negative regulator, slowing down the early stages of apoptotic cell binding and internalization. This regulatory balance is suggested to fine-tune efferocytosis to maintain homeostasis.

      The primary aim of this study was to characterize the function of NimB1 to better understand the roles of proteins within the NimB family.

      This study identifies a novel function for NimB1 in modulating the early stages of efferocytosis, adding to our understanding of how Nimrod proteins fine-tune apoptotic cell clearance. The authors establish a clear phenotypic contrast between NimB1 and NimB4, which provides a compelling framework for understanding how positive and negative regulators coordinate phagocytosis. It also highlights the multiple roles of the secreted members of the Nimrod scavenger receptor family, which have remained so far poorly investigated.

      This is an interesting study that could be strengthened by additional validation and broader experimental support. As the authors point out in the discussion, it is known that PS bridging molecules contribute to phagocytosis and that the contribution of positive and negative players finely tune phagocytosis in flies and mammals. Clarifying the mode of action of NimB1 in those processes would higher the impact of this interesting piece of work. For example, does NimB1 interact with NimB4 and if so, what is the role of this interaction? How does NimB1 integrate in the signaling cascade that allows scavenger receptors to bind PS? Does it act similar to Orion by enhancing the PS binding of a scavenger receptor ?

      Key Findings

      • NimB1 and NimB4 are structurally similar, as supported by AlphaFold2 modeling, suggesting functional relatedness.
      • NimB1 is expressed in macrophages, secreted into the hemolymph, and binds apoptotic cells in a phosphatidylserine (PS)-dependent manner.
      • NimB1 is induced by challenge.
      • NimB1 mutants display a hyper-phagocytic phenotype, with faster recognition and internalization of apoptotic cells.
      • NimB1 loss enhances macrophage adhesion and actin remodeling, while bacterial phagocytosis remains unaffected, suggesting a specific role in apoptotic clearance.
      • NimB1 acts early in the phagocytic process, while NimB4 functions at later stages, particularly in phagosome maturation.

      Major comments

      1. Figure 1: AlphaFold is a valuable tool for generating hypotheses, however predicted structures should not be presented as definitive evidence of similarity, particularly without complementary experimental validation. This section would be stronger if the structural predictions were explicitly framed as predictions. In the absence of such data, the interpretation should be toned down.
      2. Figure 2DE : Given its basal level in homeostatic conditions, it would have been useful to look at the NimB1-GFP upon challenge. Also, the authors show only a single larval macrophage with no comparison point. To strengthen this result, the authors could include another protein quantification method, such as western blotting. Alternatively, labelling of NimB1>UASmRFP in embryo that present the highest expression levels would also strengthen this result.
      3. In supplementary Figure S1F : the authors overexpress NimB1-RFP using the fat body driver Lpp-Gal4 and show larvae with RFP in the nephrocyte. Could filet preparations be shown? Could the authors present evidence that the Lpp driver is not expressed in the nephrocytes (or refer to literature)?
      4. The results on the increased number of hemocytes observed in the double NimB1, NimB4 mutant animals (Figure S3A) remains not only disconnected from the rest of the data but also unexplained. Providing a mechanistic view may require a significant amount of work that may indicate an additional role of the two NimBs but will not add to our understanding of the role of NimB1 in phagocytosis. Nevertheless, it would be at least useful to know whether in the double mutant the lymph gland is still intact, as its precocious histolysis could account for the elevated number of hemocytes. If that were the case, that could indicate that lacking the two NimBs triggers an inflammatory state that affects the lymph gland, meaning that the pathway controlling phagocytosis also has a systemic impact on development. When checking the representative Figure S4D, it seems that very large cells are present in the double mutants, even larger than in the single mutants. These could be (pre)lamellocytes, which constitute activated hemocytes, known to impact the status of the lymph gland. If the enhanced number of hemocytes does not depend on lymph gland histolysis, a simple immunolabeling with the anti-PH3 antibody would assess the proliferative phenotype of the double mutant hemocytes. At least this piece of data would provide a better explanation for the observed phenotype.
      5. Figure 6: The connection between the ex-vivo (Figure 5) and in vivo (Figure 6) assays should be clarified. In the first type of assay, the lack of NimB4 results in reduced internalization (while lack of NimB1 enhances it). In the in vivo assay, more fragments are seen within the cell (hence internalized), using the NimB4 mutant. Also, in the ex-vivo assay, the lack of NimB1 does not affect the first steps ('attachment' and 'membrane'), while NimB4 does, yet it is proposed that NimB1 acts in the early steps (page 11-12). In that case, wouldn't we expect the double mutant NimB1 NmB4 to have the NimB1 phenotype?
      6. Figure 8A : a definition of the phagocytic cup mentioned in the text (page 12, 2nd paragraph) as well as the homogenization of the scale bars in Figure 8A would clarify the interpretation of Figure 8A. The structures shown for w1118 seem quite distant from the structures highlighted for NimB1crimic.
      7. The same scale should be used across different panels in Figure 8. This is particularly important since the authors mention the size of the lysotracker vesicles to conclude on their levels of maturity. This data and conclusions would be strengthened by a quantification of the vacuole sizes and the combination with markers of phagosome/lysosome maturation levels. It would help disentangling the complementary roles of NimB1 and NimB4.

      Minor comments:

      Figure 2BC : is there a particular reason to shift from Rp49 to Rpl32 as normalizing gene in Figure 2B and C? This prevents the comparison of NimB1 expression levels across the different graphs. Page 9, 2nd paragraph and Figure S3C: the authors mention "Actin structure revealed an increased ratio of filopodia to lamellipodia across all mutants". A clear definition of the parameters defining filopodia and lamellipodia is required to fully appreciate the meaning of the ratio. Figure S5B: a bar is missing in the right graph (% of cells containing AC, NimB1>UAS-NimB1-RFP). Page 10 2nd paragraph. The authors mention "draper mutants displayed impaired apoptotic cell binding and engulfment" referring to Figure 4. Figure S4 provide a more convincing illustration of this statement, since the decreased phagocytic index in Drpr KO is mostly due to less cells phagocytosing and not less material phagocytosed. Figure 6: not easy to distinguish the DAPI labelling relative to the nucleus vs. that of apoptotic fragments. Figure 7B: the number of cells used to generate the violin plot should be indicated in the legend or the method section. A schematic figure recapitulating the data would help. Page 11 last line: homeostatic rather than hemostatic.

      Significance

      This study identifies a novel function for NimB1 in modulating the early stages of efferocytosis, adding to our understanding of how Nimrod proteins fine-tune apoptotic cell clearance. The authors establish a clear phenotypic contrast between NimB1 and NimB4, which provides a compelling framework for understanding how positive and negative regulators coordinate phagocytosis. It also highlights the multiple roles of the secreted members of the Nimrod scavenger receptor family, which have remained so far poorly investigated.

      This is an interesting study that could be strengthened by additional validation and broader experimental support. As the authors point out in the discussion, it is known that PS bridging molecules contribute to phagocytosis and that the contribution of positive and negative players finely tune phagocytosis in flies and mammals. Clarifying the mode of action of NimB1 in those processes would higher the impact of this interesting piece of work. For example, does NimB1 interact with NimB4 and if so, what is the role of this interaction? How does NimB1 integrate in the signaling cascade that allows scavenger receptors to bind PS? Does it act similar to Orion by enhancing the PS binding of a scavenger receptor ?

    3. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      In this study, Dolgikh and colleagues propose a first investigation about the role of the drosophila Nimrod protein NimB1. Although the role of several members of the family in phagocytosis has been explored, the function of Nimrod type B proteins is less addressed. With in silico analysis, they first see a strong similarity between NimB1 and NimB4. They show that NimB1 is primarily expressed in phagocytes, and as NimB4 can bind phosphatidylserines (PS), leading to a possible shared role in efferocytosis. Using transgenic and null drosophila models, the authors then compare the impact of NimB1 overexpression or deficiency. They compare the effects shown to NimB4 and Draper deficient lines, as these two proteins were previously shown to play a role in efferocytosis. They propose that NimB1 is a secreted protein that binds apoptotic cells. They show that NimB1 deficiency changes the adhesion properties of macrophages. The major finding is that NimB1 delays the early stages of efferocytosis, contrary to NimB4 and Draper that on the contrary facilitate efferocytosis. In contrast, the authors propose that NimB1 increases the formation of phagosomes.

      Major comments:

      • One of the major technical challenges here was to generate models to allow the detection of the protein in cellulo and in vivo. Although the results are convincing in transgenic lines NimB1 expression is driven by the endogenous promoter, one could still argue that the GFP tags would lead to changes in the localization of the protein.
      • In line with the previous comment, to show that NimB1 is a secreted protein, the authors use an overexpression model. How to be sure, that overexpression itself does not lead to increased secretion, or shedding from the membrane ?
      • Would an experiment with a control consisting in a known protein secreted by macrophages lead to the same staining pattern (positive control)? Could another methodology like a Western Blot on supernatants from hemocyte cell culture (over)expressing NimB1, with an anti-RFP staining, be envisaged?
      • It sems counterintuitive that phagocytes from Draper and NimB4 null mutants with defects in efferocytosis show increased load of apoptotic cells (Figure 6C and D in both unchallenged and injury condition). Do the authors have precedent data to cite going to the same direction? Are cell debris engulfed but not degraded efficiently?
      • In Figure 6D it seems indeed that NimB4, NimB1/NimB4 and Draper mutants do not accumulate more apoptotic material upon injury. However, levels for NimB4 is close to the one obtained with NimB1 mutants. Is it statistically true? If yes, what could be the reason for this similarity ? In any case, as some important conclusion relies on the comparison between UC and injury conditions, adequate statistics and representations could be proposed.
      • The authors claim with analyses of Figure 8C and D, that NimB1 mutants show acidic vehicles normal in size and fluorescence intensity. However, statistical differences are still observed compared to control condition, which is also seen in representative images shown.

      Minor comments:

      • In figure 2D, what allows to say the expression is restricted in macrophages ? Is it the colocalization with SIMU being a macrophage-specific marker?
      • In figure S3B and C, it appears that double NimB1/NimB4 mutants exhibit less spreading than single ones (especially NimB4). Is it the case (statistic significance). If yes what could be the explanation?
      • Several graphs are identical between figure 4 ans S4. It is probably not useful and complicates reading.
      • As TEM images shown in Figure 8B do not lead to quantitative data, I would put it as supplementary file.

      Significance

      This study uses several approaches and models to address the role of NimB1 in efferocytosis. Both In Vitro and In Vivo approaches are proposed. They give insight into the role of this protein with unknown function so far. Some statistical analysis could be performed to improve the clarity of conclusions. One of the important aspects is the secreted nature of NimB1.However, additional approaches could be proposed to confirm this.

      Basic immunologists and cell biologists would be interested in reading this article that highlights the delicate equilibrium between pro and anti-efferocytosis molecules.

      I am an immunologist/cell biologist with expertise in lysosomal catabolism. As I work on mouse models or Human samples, my mastering of drosophila as a model is limited.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study provides an in-depth analysis of syncytiotrophoblast (STB) gene expression at the single-nucleus (SN) and single-cell (SC) levels, using both primary human placental tissues and two trophoblast organoid (TO) models. The authors compare the older TO model, where STB forms internally (STBin), with a newer model where STB forms externally (STBout). Through a series of comparative analyses, the study highlights the necessity of using both SN and SC techniques to fully understand placental biology. The findings demonstrate that the STBout model shows more differentiated STBs with higher expression of canonical markers and hormones compared to STBin. Additionally, the study identifies both conserved and distinct gene expression profiles between the TO models and human placenta, offering valuable insights for researchers using TOs to study STB and CTB differentiation.

      Strengths:

      The study offers a comprehensive SC- and SN-based characterization of trophoblast organoid models, providing a thorough validation of these models against human placental tissues. By comparing the older STBin and newer STBout models, the authors effectively demonstrate the improvements in the latter, particularly in the differentiation and gene expression profiles of STBs. This work serves as a critical resource for researchers, offering a clear delineation of the similarities and differences between TO-derived and primary STBs. The use of multiple advanced techniques, such as high-resolution sequencing and trajectory analysis, further enhances the study's contribution to the field.

      Weaknesses were addressed during the revision.

      The authors effectively addressed my critiques in the rebuttal letter and made corresponding changes in the manuscript. Specifically, they: 1) emphasized the importance of TO orientation in influencing STB nuclear subtype differentiation by adding text to the introduction; 2) clarified the differences in cluster numbers and names between primary tissue and TO data, explaining that each dataset was analyzed independently with separate clustering algorithms and adding clarifying text to the results section; 3) included additional rationale for using SN over SC sequencing, particularly for studying the multinucleated STB; 4) acknowledged that their original evidence was insufficient to definitively determine STBout nuclei differentiation status and removed language suggesting STB-3 as a terminally differentiated subtype, presenting alternative hypotheses in the discussion; and 5) incorporated new figures and clarifications, including RNA-FISH experiments, to validate subtype-specific marker gene expression. Overall, the authors' revisions strengthened the manuscript and aligned well with my critiques.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study provides an in-depth analysis of syncytiotrophoblast (STB) gene expression at the single-nucleus (SN) and single-cell (SC) levels, using both primary human placental tissues and two trophoblast organoid (TO) models. The authors compare the older TO model, where STB forms internally (STBin), with a newer model where STB forms externally (STBout). Through a series of comparative analyses, the study highlights the necessity of using both SN and SC techniques to fully understand placental biology. The findings demonstrate that the STBout model shows more differentiated STBs with higher expression of canonical markers and hormones compared to STBin. Additionally, the study identifies both conserved and distinct gene expression profiles between the TO models and human placenta, offering valuable insights for researchers using TOs to study STB and CTB differentiation.

      Strengths:

      The study offers a comprehensive SC- and SN-based characterization of trophoblast organoid models, providing a thorough validation of these models against human placental tissues. By comparing the older STBin and newer STBout models, the authors effectively demonstrate the improvements in the latter, particularly in the differentiation and gene expression profiles of STBs. This work serves as a critical resource for researchers, offering a clear delineation of the similarities and differences between TO-derived and primary STBs. The use of multiple advanced techniques, such as high-resolution sequencing and trajectory analysis, further enhances the study's contribution to the field.

      Weaknesses were addressed during the revision.

      The authors effectively addressed my critiques in the rebuttal letter and made corresponding changes in the manuscript. Specifically, they: 1) emphasized the importance of TO orientation in influencing STB nuclear subtype differentiation by adding text to the introduction; 2) clarified the differences in cluster numbers and names between primary tissue and TO data, explaining that each dataset was analyzed independently with separate clustering algorithms and adding clarifying text to the results section; 3) included additional rationale for using SN over SC sequencing, particularly for studying the multinucleated STB; 4) acknowledged that their original evidence was insufficient to definitively determine STBout nuclei differentiation status and removed language suggesting STB-3 as a terminally differentiated subtype, presenting alternative hypotheses in the discussion; and 5) incorporated new figures and clarifications, including RNA-FISH experiments, to validate subtype-specific marker gene expression. Overall, the authors' revisions strengthened the manuscript and aligned well with my critiques.

    3. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      We thank the public reviewers and editors for their insightful comments on the manuscript. We have made the following changes to address their concerns and think the resulting manuscript is stronger as a result. Specifically, we have 1) added RNA FISH data of specific STB-2 and STB-3 RNA markers to confirm their distribution changes between STB<sup>in</sup> and STB<sup>out</sup> TOs, 2) removed language throughout the text that refer to STB-3 as a terminally differentiated nuclear subtype, and 3) generated CRISPR-mediated knock-outs of two genes identified by network analysis and validated their rolse in mediating STB nuclear subtype gene expression.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Strengths: 

      The study offers a comprehensive SC- and SN-based characterization of trophoblast organoid models, providing a thorough validation of these models against human placental tissues. By comparing the older STB<sup>in</sup> and newer STB<sup>out</sup> models, the authors effectively demonstrate the improvements in the latter, particularly in the differentiation and gene expression profiles of STBs. This work serves as a critical resource for researchers, offering a clear delineation of the similarities and differences between TO-derived and primary STBs. The use of multiple advanced techniques, such as high-resolution sequencing and trajectory analysis, further enhances the study's contribution to the field. 

      Thank you for your thoughtful review—we appreciate your recognition of our efforts to comprehensively validate trophoblast organoid models and highlight key advancements in STB differentiation and gene expression.

      Weaknesses: 

      While the study is robust, some areas could benefit from further clarification. 

      (1) The importance of the TO model's orientation and its impact on outcomes could be emphasized more in the introduction. 

      We agree that TO orientation may significantly influence STB nuclear subtype differentiation. As the STB is critical for both barrier formation and molecular transport in vivo, lack of exposure to the surrounding media in STB<sup>in</sup> TOs in vitro could compromise these functions and the associated environmental cues that influence STB nuclear differentiation. We have added text to the introduction to highlight this point (lines 117-120).

      (2) The differences in cluster numbers/names between primary tissue and TO data need a clearer explanation, and consistent annotation could aid in comparison. 

      Thank you for highlighting that the comparisions and cluster annotations need clarification. In Figure 1, we did not aim to directly compare CTB and STB nuclear subtypes between TOs and tissue. Each dataset was analyzed independently, with clusters determined separately and with different resolutions decided via a clustering algorithm (Zappia and Oshlack, 2018). For example, for the STB, this approach identified seven subtypes in tissue but only two in TOs, making direct comparison challenging. To address this challenge, we integrated the SN datasets from TOs and tissue in Figure 6. This integration allowed us to directly compare gene expression between the sample types and examine the proportions within each STB subtype. Similarly, in Figure 2, direct comparison of individual CTB or STB clusters across the separate datasets is challenging (Figures 2A-C) due to differences in clustering. To overcome this, we integrated the datasets to compare cluster gene expression and relative proportions (Figures 2D-E). Nonetheless, to address the reviewers concern we have added text to the results section to clarify that subclusters of CTB and STB between datasets should not be directly compared until the datasets are integrated in Figure 2D-E and Figure 6 (lines 166-167).

      (3) The rationale for using SN sequencing over SC sequencing for TO evaluations should be clarified, especially regarding the potential underrepresentation of certain trophoblast subsets. 

      This is an important point as the challenges of studying a giant syncytial cell are often underappreciated by researchers that study mononucleated cells. We have added text to the introduction to clarify why traditional single cell RNA sequencing techniques were inadequate to collect  and characterize the STB (lines 91-93).

      (4) Additionally, more evidence could be provided to support the claims about STB differentiation in the STB<sup>out</sup> model and to determine whether its differentiation trajectory is unique or simply more advanced than in STB<sup>in</sup>. 

      Our original conclusion that STB<sup>out</sup> nuclei are more terminally differentiated than STB<sup>in</sup> was based on two observations: (1) STB<sup>out</sup> TOs exhibit increased expression of STB-specific pregnancy hormones and many classic STB marker genes and (2) STB<sup>out</sup> nuclei show an enrichment of the STB-3 nuclear subtype, which appears at the end of the slingshot pseudotime trajectory. However, upon consideration of the reviewer comments, we agree that this evidence is not sufficient to definitively distinguish if STB<sup>out</sup> nuclei are more advanced or follow a unique differentiation trajectory dependent on new environmental cues. Pseudotime analyses provided only a predictive framework for lineage tracing, and these predictions must be experimentally validated. Real-time tracking of STB nuclear subtypes in TOs would require a suite of genetic tools beyond the scope of this study. Therefore, to address the reviewers' concerns we have removed language suggesting that STB-3 is a terminally differentiated subtype or that STB<sup>out</sup> nuclei are more differentiated than STB<sup>in</sup> nuclei throughout the text until the discussion. Therein we present both our original hypothesis (that STB nuclei are further differentiated in STB<sup>out</sup>) and alternative explanations like changing trajectories due to local environmental cues (lines 619-625).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Strengths: 

      (1) The use of SN and SC RNA sequencing provides a detailed analysis of STB formation and differentiation. 

      (2) The identification of distinct STB subtypes and novel gene markers such as RYBP offers new insights into STB development. 

      Thank you for highlighting these strengths—we appreciate your recognition of our use of SN and SC RNA sequencing to analyze STB differentiation and the discovery of distinct STB subtypes and novel gene markers like RYBP.

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) Inconsistencies in data presentation. 

      We address the individual comments of reviewer 2 later in this response.

      (2) Questionable interpretation of lncRNA signals: The use of long non-coding RNA (lncRNA) signals as cell type-specific markers may represent sequencing noise rather than true markers. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s attention to detail in noticing the lncRNA signature seen in many STB nuclear subtypes. However, we disagree that these molecules simply represent sequencing noise. In fact, may studies have rigorously demonstrated that lncRNAs have both cell and tissue specific gene expression (e.g., Zhao et al 2022, Isakova et al 2021, Zheng et al 2020). Further, they have been shown to be useful markers of unique cell types during development (e.g., Morales-Vicente et al 2022, Zhou et al 2019, Kim et al 2015) and can enhance clustering interpretability in breast cancer (Malagoli et al 2024). Many lncRNAs have also been demonstrated to play a functional role in the human placenta, including H19, MEG3, and MEG8 (Adu-Gyamfi et al 2023) and differences are even seen in nuclear subtypes in trophoblast stem cells (Khan et al 2021). Therefore, we prefer to keep these lncRNA signatures included and let future researchers test their functional role.

      To improve the study's validity and significance, it is crucial to address the inconsistencies and to provide additional evidence for the claims. Supplementing with immunofluorescence staining for validating the distribution of STB_in, STB_out, and EVT_enrich in the organoid models is recommended to strengthen the results and conclusions. 

      Each general trophoblast cell type (CTB, STB, EVT) has been visualized by immunofluorescence by the Coyne laboratory in their initial papers characterizing the STB<sup>in</sup>, STB<sup>out</sup>, and EVT<sup>enrich</sup> models (Yang et al, 2022 and 2023). We agree that it is important to validate the STB nuclear subtypes found in our genomic study. However, one challenge in studying a syncytia is that immunofluorescence may not be a definitive method when the nuclei share a common cytoplasm. This is because protein products from mRNAs transcribed in one nucleus are translated in the cytoplasm and could diffuse beyond sites of transcription. Therefore, RNA fluorescence in situ hybridization (RNA-FISH) is instead needed. While a systematic characterization of the spatial distribution of the many marker genes found each subtype is outside the scope of this study, we include RNA-FISH of one STB-2 marker (PAPPA2) and one STB-3 marker (ADAMTS6) in Figure 3F-G and Supplemental Figure 3.3. This demonstrates there is an increase in STB-2 marker gene expression in STB<sup>in</sup> TOs and an increase in STB-3 marker gene expression in STB<sup>out</sup> TOs. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):  

      The authors present outstanding progress toward their aim of identifying, "the underlying control of the syncytiotrophoblast". They identify the chromatin remodeler, RYBP, as well as other regulatory networks that they propose are critical to syncytiotrophoblast development. This study is limited in fully addressing the aim, however, as functional evidence for the contributions of the factors/pathways to syncytiotrophoblast cell development is needed. Future experimentation testing the hypotheses generated by this work will define the essentiality of the identified factors to syncytiotrophoblast development and function. 

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful assessment, constructive feedback, and encouraging comments. We acknowledge that the initial manuscript primarily presented analyses suggesting correlations between RYBP and other factors identified in the gene network analysis and STB function. Understanding how gene networks in the STB are formed and regulated is a long-term goal that will require many experiments with collaborative efforts across multiple research groups.

      Nonetheless, to address this concern we have knocked out two key genes, RYBP and AFF1, in TOs using CRISPR-Cas9-mediated gene targeting. Bulk RNA sequencing of STB<sup>in</sup> TOs from both wild-type (WT) and knockout strains revealed that deletion of either gene caused a statistically significant decrease in the expression of the pregnancy hormone human placental lactogen and an increase in the expression of several genes characteristic of the oxygen-sensing STB-2 subtype, including FLT-1, PAPPA2, SPON2, and SFXN3. These findings demonstrate that knocking out RYBP or AFF1 results in an increase in STB-2 marker gene expression and therefore play a role in inhibiting their expression in WT TOs (Figure 5D-E and supplemental Figure 5.2). We also note that this is the first application of CRISPR-mediated gene silencing in a TO model.

      Future work will visualize the distribution of STB nuclear subtypes in these mutants and explore the mechanistic role of RYBP and AFF1 in STB nuclear subtype formation and maintenance. However, these investigations fall outside the scope of the current study.

      Localization and validation of the identified factors within tissue and at the protein level will also provide further contextual evidence to address the hypotheses generated. 

      We agree that visualizing STB nuclear subtype distribution is essential for testing the many hypotheses generated by our analysis. To address this, we have included RNA-FISH experiments for two STB subtype markers (PAPPA2 for STB-2 and ADAMTS6 for STB-3) in TOs. These experiments reveal an increase in PAPPA2 expression in STB<sup>in</sup> TOs and an increase in ADAMTS6 expression in STB<sup>out</sup> TOs (Figure 3F-G and Supplemental Figure 3.3). Genomic studies serve as powerful hypothesis generators, and we look forward to future work—both our own and that of other researchers—to validate the markers and hypotheses presented from our analysis.

      Recommendations for the authors: 

      Reviewing Editor Comments: 

      We strongly encourage the authors to further strengthen the study by addressing all reviewers' comments and recommendations, with particular attention to the following key aspects:

      (1) Clarifying the uniqueness of the STB differentiation trajectory between STB<sup>in</sup> and STB<sup>out</sup>, and determining whether STB<sup>out</sup> represents a more advanced stage of differentiation compared to STB<sup>in</sup>. It is also important to specify which developmental stage of placental villi the STB<sup>out</sup> and STB<sup>in</sup> are simulating. 

      We have revised the manuscript to remove definitive language claiming that STB-3 represents a terminally differentiated subtype or that STB<sup>out</sup> nuclei are more differentiated than STB<sup>in</sup> nuclei. Instead, we now present our hypothesis and alternative explanations in the discussion (lines 619-625), and emphasize the need for experimental validation of pseudotime predictions to test these hypotheses.

      (2) Utilizing immunofluorescence to validate the distribution of cell types in the organoid models. 

      The Coyne lab has previously performed immunofluorescence of CTB and STB markers in STB<sup>in</sup> and STB<sup>out</sup> TOs (Yang et al 2023). The syncytial nature of STBs complicates immunofluorescence-based validation of the STB nuclear subtypes due translating proteins all sharing a single common cytoplasm and therefore being able to diffuse and mix. Instead, we performed RNA-FISH for two STB subtype markers (PAPPA2, STB-2 and ADAMTS6, STB-3), which showed subtype-specific nuclear enrichment in STB<sup>in</sup> and STB<sup>out</sup> TOs, respectively (Figure 3F-G and Supplemental Figure 3.3).  

      (3) Addressing concerns regarding the use of lncRNA as cell marker genes. Employing canonical markers alongside critical TFs involved in differentiation pathways to perform a more robust cell-type analysis and validation is recommended.  

      As discussed in detail above, we maintain that lncRNAs are valuable markers, supported by their demonstrated roles in cell and tissue specificity and placental function. These signatures provide important insights and hypotheses for future research, and we have clarified this rationale in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) The authors have presented an extensive SC- and SN-based characterization of their improved trophoblast TO model, including a comparison to human placental tissues and the previous TO iteration. In this way, the authors' work represents an invaluable resource for investigators by providing thorough validation of the TO model and a clear description of the similarities and differences between primary and TO-derived STBs. I would suggest that the authors reshape the study to further highlight and emphasize this aspect of the study. 

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful recommendation and agree that our datasets will serve as an invaluable resource for comparing in vitro models to in vivo gene expression. However, extensive validation is required to make definitive conclusions about the extent to which these systems mirror one another and where they diverge. For this reason, in this manuscript, we have focused on characterizing STB subtypes to provide a foundational understanding of the model and this poorly characterized subtype.

      (2) Introduction, Paragraph 3: What is the importance of orientation for the trophoblast TO model? The authors may consider removing some of the less important methodologic details from this paragraph and including more emphasis on why their TO model is an improvement. 

      Text has been added to this paragraph to highlight the importance of outward facing STB orientation, which is essential to mirror the STB’s transport function in vitro (lines 118-120).

      (3) Results, Figure 1: In addition to the primary placental tissue plots showing all cell populations, it may be useful to have side-by-side versions of similar plots showing only the trophoblast subsets, so that the primary and TO data could be more easily compared visually. 

      This has been implemented and added to the Supplemental Figure 1.4.

      (4) Results, Figure 1: In simple terms, what is the reason for ending up with different cluster numbers/names from the primary tissue and TO? Would it be possible to apply the same annotation to each (at least for trophoblast types) and thus allow direct comparison between the two? 

      As described above, each dataset was separately analyzed and clusters determined with an algorithm to determine the optimal clustering resolution. Therefore, the number of clusters between each dataset cannot be directly compared until the SN TO and tissue datasets are integrated together in Figure 6. We have added text to the manuscript to make it clear that they should not be compared except for in bulk number until this point (230-232).

      (5) Results, Figure 2: For subsequent evaluation of different in vitro TO conditions, did the authors use only SN sequencing because they wanted to focus on STB? Based on Figure 1, it seems some CTB subsets would be underrepresented if using only SN. Given that the authors look at both STB and CTB in their different TOs, is this an issue? 

      The CTB clusters that showed the greatest divergence between SC and SN datasets were those associated with mitosis and the cell cycle, likely due to nuclear envelope breakdown interfering with capture by the 10x microfluidics pipeline. While cytoplasmic gene expression provides valuable insights into CTB function, our manuscript focuses on the STB starting from Figure 2. Since the STB is captured exclusively by the SN dataset, we concentrated on this approach to streamline our analysis.

      (6) Results, Figure 3: What do the authors consider to be the primary contributing factors for why the STB subsets display differential gene expression between STB<sup>in</sup> and STB<sup>out</sup>? Is this due primarily to the cultural conditions and/or a result of the differing spatial arrangement with CTBs? 

      This is an intriguing question that is challenging to disentangle because the culture conditions are integral to flipping the orientation. The two primary factors that differ between STB<sup>in</sup> and STB<sup>out</sup> TOs are the presence of extracellular matrix in STB<sup>in</sup> and direct exposure to the surrounding media in STB<sup>out</sup>. We believe these environmental cues play a significant role in shaping the gene expression of STB subsets. Fully disentangling this relationship would require a method to alter the TO orientation without changing the culture conditions. While this is an exciting direction for future research, it falls outside the scope of the present study.

      (7) Results, Figure 4: The authors' analysis indicates that the STB nuclei from the STB<sup>out</sup> TO are likely "more differentiated" than those in STB<sup>in</sup> TO. Could the authors provide some qualitative or quantitative support for this? Is the STB<sup>out</sup> differentiated phenotype closer to what would be observed in a fully formed placenta? 

      As discussed earlier, we agree with the reviewers that this claim should be removed from the text outside of the discussion.

      (8) Results, Figure 5: Based on the trajectory analysis, do the authors consider that the STB from STB<sup>out</sup> TO are simply further along the differentiation pathway compared to those from STB<sup>in</sup> TO, or do the STB from STB<sup>out</sup> TO follow a differentiation pathway that is intrinsically distinct from STB<sup>in</sup> TO? 

      We think the idea of an intrinsically distinct pathway is a fascinating alternative hypothesis and have added it into the discussion. We do not find the pseudotime currently allows us to answer this question without additional experiments, so we have removed claims that the STB<sup>out</sup> STB nuclei are further along the differentiation pathway.

      (9) Results, Figure 6: A notable difference between the STB<sup>out</sup> TO and the term tissue is that the CTB subsets are much more prevalent. Is this simply a scale difference, i.e. due to the size of the human placenta compared to the limited STB nuclei available in the STB<sup>out</sup> TO? Or are there other contributing factors? 

      The proportion of CTB to STB nuclei in our term tissue (9:1) aligns with expectations based on stereological estimates. We believe the relatively low number of CTB nuclei in our dataset is due to the need for a larger sample size to capture more of this less abundant cell type. Since the primary focus of this paper is on STB, and we analyzed over 4,000 STB nuclei, we do not view this as a limitation. However, future studies utilizing SN to investigate term tissue should account for the abundance of STB nuclei and plan their sampling carefully to ensure sufficient representation of CTB nuclei if this is a desired focus.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) The color annotations for cell types in Figure 2 are inconsistent between the different panels, and the term "Prolif" in Figure 2E is not explained by the authors. 

      We chose colors to enhance visibility on the UMAP. We do not wish readers to make direct comparisons between the different CTB or STB subtypes of the sample types until the datasets are integrated in Figure 2D. This is because an algorithm for the clustering resolution has been chosen independently for each dataset. Cluster proportions are better compared in the integrated datasets in Figure 2D. We have added text to the results section to make this clear to the reader (lines 166-167).

      (2) In Figure 3 and Supplementary Figures 1.3, the authors frequently present long non-coding RNA (lncRNA) signals as cell type-specific markers in the bubble plots. These signals are likely sequencing noise and may not accurately represent true markers for those cell types. It is recommended to revise this interpretation. 

      As referenced above, there are many examples of lncRNAs that have biological and pathological significance in the placenta (H19, Meg3, Meg8) and lncRNAs often have cell type specific expression that can enhance clustering. We prefer to keep these signatures included and let future researchers determine their biological significance.

      (3) In Figure 3C, the authors performed pathway enrichment analysis on the STB subtypes after integrating STB_in and STB_out organoids. The enrichment of the "transport across the blood-brain barrier" pathway in the STB-3 subtype does not align with the current understanding of STB cell function. Please provide corresponding supporting evidence. Additionally, please verify whether the other functional pathways represent functions specific to the STB subtypes. 

      Interestingly, many of the genes categorized under “transport across the blood-brain barrier” are transporters shared with “vascular transport.” These include genes involved in the transport of amino acids (SLC7A1, SLC38A1, SLC38A3, SLC7A8), molecules essential for lipid metabolism (SLC27A4, SLC44A1), and small molecule exchange (SLC4A4, SLC5A6). Given that the vasculature, the STB, and the blood-brain barrier all perform critical barrier functions, it is unsurprising that molecules associated with these GO terms are enriched in the STB-3 subtype, which expresses numerous transporter proteins. Since the transport of materials across the STB is a well-established function, we have not included additional supporting evidence but have clarified the genes associated with this GO term in the text (lines 392-394 and supplemental Table 9).

      (4) The pseudotime heatmap in Figure 4B is not properly arranged and is inconsistent with the differentiation relationships shown in Figure 4A. It is recommended to revise this. 

      We are uncertain which aspect of the heatmap in Figure 4A is perceived as inconsistent with Figure 4B. One distinction is that pseudotime in Figure 4A is normalized from 0 to 100 to fit the blue-to-yellow-to-red color scale, whereas in Figure 4B, the color scale is not normalized and the color bar ranging from white to red. This difference reflects our intent to simplify Figure 4B-C, as the abundance of color between cell types and gene expression changes required a streamlined representation to ensure the figure remained clear and easy to interpret. This is classically done in the field and consistent with the default code in the slingshot package.

      (5) In Figures 4C and 4D, although RYBP is highly expressed in STB, it is difficult to support the conclusion that RYBP shows the most significant expression changes. It is recommended to provide additional evidence. 

      The claim that RYBP exhibits the most significant expression changes was based on p-value ordering of genes associated with pseudotime via the associationTest function in slingshot and not with immunofluorescence data. The text has been revised to make this distinction clear (lines 390-393).

      (6) In Figure 4E, staining for CTB marker genes is missing, and in Figure 4F, CYTO is difficult to use as a classical STB marker. It is recommended to use the CGBs antibody from Figure 4E as a STB marker for staining to provide evidence.  

      We have revised the Figure 5B-C to use e-Cadherin as a CTB marker gene in TOs and CGB antibody as a marker of STB.

      In tissue, however, obtaining a good STB marker that does not overlap with the RYBP antibody (rabbit) in term tissue is difficult as the STB downregulates hCG expression closer to term to initiate contractions. SDC1 is often used but only labels the plasma membrane so does not help in distinguishing the STB cytoplasm. We have added an image of cytokeratin, e-Cadherin, and the STB marker ENDOU to validate that our current approach with e-Cadherin and cytokeratin allows us to accurately distinguish between CTB and STB cells.

      (7) The velocity results in Figure 5A do not align with the differentiation relationships between cells and contradict the pseudotime results presented in Figure 4 by the authors. 

      The reviewer raises an interesting observation regarding the velocity map in Figure 5A, which appears to show a bifurcation into two STB subtypes. This observation aligns with similar findings reported in tissue by our colleagues (Wang et al., 2024). However, given the low number of CTB cells in our tissue dataset, we were cautious about making definitive conclusions about pseudotime without a larger sample size. Notably, the RNA velocity map closely resembles the pseudotime trajectory in TOs, with CTB transitioning into the CTB-pf subtype and subsequently into the STB. One potential explanation for discrepancies between tissue and TOs is the difference in nuclear age: nuclei in tissue can be up to nine months old, whereas those in TOs are only hours or days old. It is possible that the lineage in TOs could bifurcate if cultured for longer than 48 hours, but our current dataset captures only the early stages of the STB differentiation process. While exploring these hypotheses is fascinating, they are beyond the scope of this current study.  

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Amazing work - I greatly enjoyed reading the manuscript. Here are a few questions and suggestions for consideration: 

      Evidence presented throughout the results sections hints that the organoids may represent an earlier stage of placental development compared to the term. Increased hCG gene expression is observed, but as noted expression is decreased in term STB. STB:CTB ratios are also higher at term compared to the first trimester, etc. It was difficult to conclude definitively based on how data is presented in Fig 6 and discussed. Maybe there is no clear answer. Perhaps the altered cell type ratios in the organoid models (e.g., few STB in EVT enrich conditions) impact recapitulation of the in vivo local microenvironment signaling. As such, can the authors speculate on whether cell ratios could be strategically leveraged to model different gestational time points? 

      Along these same lines, syncytiotrophoblast in early implantation (before proper villi development) is often described as invasive and later at the tertiary villi stage defined by hormone production, barrier function, and nutrient/gas exchange. Do the authors think the different STB subtypes captured in the organoid models represent different stages/functions of syncytiotrophoblast in placental development? 

      Minor Comments 

      (1) Please clarify what the third number represents in the STB:CTB ratio (e.g., 1:3:1 and 2:5:1). EVT? 

      The first number is a decimal point and not a colon (ie 1.3 and 2.5). Therefore these numbers are to be read as the STB:CTB ratio is 1.3 to 1 or 2.5 to 1.

      (2) Could consider co-localizing RYBP in term tissue with a syncytio-specific marker like CGB used for organoids (Fig 4F). 

      We addressed this concern in comment 6 to reviewer 2.

      (3) Recommend defining colors-which colors represent which module in Figure 5C in the legend and main body text. I see the labels surrounding the heatmap in 5B, but defining colors in text (e.g. cyan, magenta, etc.) would be helpful. Do the gray circles represent targets that don't belong to a specific module? Are the bolded factor names based on a certain statistical cutoff/defining criteria or were they manually selected? 

      The text of both the results and figure legends has been revised to clarify these points.

      (4) Data Availability: It would be helpful to provide supplemental table files for analyses (e.g., 5C to list the overlapping relationships in TGs for each TF/CR (5C) and 3E/6F to list DEG genes in comparisons). 

      Supplemental files for each analysis have been added (Supplemental Table 8-14). In addition, the raw and processed data is available on GEO and we have created an interactive Shiny App so people without coding experience can interact with each dataset (lines 917-919).

      (5) “...and found that each sample expressed these markers (Figure 6D), suggesting..." Consider clarifying "these". 

      Text has been added to refer to a few of these marker genes within the text (line 540).

      Citations

      (1) Zappia L, Oshlack A. Clustering trees: a visualization for evaluating clusterings at multiple resolutions. GigaScience. 2018;7(7):giy083. PMCID: PMC6057528

      (2) Zhou J, Xu J, Zhang L, Liu S, Ma Y, Wen X, Hao J, Li Z, Ni Y, Li X, Zhou F, Li Q, Wang F, Wang X, Si Y, Zhang P, Liu C, Bartolomei M, Tang F, Liu B, Yu J, Lan Y. Combined Single-Cell Profiling of lncRNAs and Functional Screening Reveals that H19 Is Pivotal for Embryonic Hematopoietic Stem Cell Development. Cell Stem Cell. 2019;24(2):285-298.e5. PMID: 30639035

      (3) Malagoli G, Valle F, Barillot E, Caselle M, Martignetti L. Identification of Interpretable Clusters and Associated Signatures in Breast Cancer Single-Cell Data: A Topic Modeling Approach. Cancers. 2024;16(7):1350. PMCID: PMC11011054

      (4) Adu-Gyamfi EA, Cheeran EA, Salamah J, Enabulele DB, Tahir A, Lee BK. Long non-coding RNAs: a summary of their roles in placenta development and pathology†. Biol Reprod. 2023;110(3):431–449. PMID: 38134961

      (5) Zheng M, Hu Y, Gou R, Nie X, Li X, Liu J, Lin B. Identification three LncRNA prognostic signature of ovarian cancer based on genome-wide copy number variation. Biomed Pharmacother. 2020;124:109810. PMID: 32000042

      (6) Khan T, Seetharam AS, Zhou J, Bivens NJ, Schust DJ, Ezashi T, Tuteja G, Roberts RM. Single Nucleus RNA Sequence (snRNAseq) Analysis of the Spectrum of Trophoblast Lineages Generated From Human Pluripotent Stem Cells in vitro. Front Cell Dev Biol. 2021;9:695248. PMCID: PMC8334858

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    1. Synthèse de l'audition d'associations de défense des enfants victimes de violences

      Contexte de l'audition: Cette audition, diffusée en direct et faisant l'objet d'un compte-rendu écrit, s'inscrit dans le cadre d'une commission d'enquête parlementaire initiée en raison d'affaires récentes de violence contre les enfants, notamment l'affaire Bétharram et l'affaire du village d'enfants de Riyaumont.

      L'objectif principal de la commission est de comprendre les actions menées par les associations pour protéger les enfants dans les établissements scolaires (où ils passent une part importante de leur temps, surtout en internat) et de formuler des préconisations pour renforcer le contrôle de l'État sur ces établissements afin de prévenir de telles violences.

      L'audition a lieu en présence de représentant(e)s de * l'association l'Enfant Bleu, * de l'association Les Maltraitances Moi J'en Parle, et * de l'association Mouve Enfant.

      Les personnes auditionnées ont prêté serment de dire la vérité.

      Principaux Thèmes et Idées Clés:

      **1. La nature des violences traitées par les associations : **

      • Les associations auditionnées traitent une large palette de violences contre les enfants : physiques, psychologiques, sexuelles, négligence grave, ainsi que le harcèlement et le cyberharcèlement.

      • L'Enfant Bleu signale que 90% des maltraitances qu'ils traitent sont intrafamiliales, bien qu'ils rencontrent également des cas en milieu scolaire.

      • Les Maltraitances Moi J'en Parle traite principalement des violences intrafamiliales, incluant les violences éducatives ordinaires, mais aussi le harcèlement et le cyberharcèlement, et intervient dans la formation des adultes.

      • Mouve Enfant traite également tous types de violences, avec une particularité forte sur les violences pédocriminelles, notamment celles commises au sein de l'Église, étant un mouvement de survivant(e)s.

      2. Les violences en milieu scolaire et la difficulté à faire remonter l'information :

      • Bien que les violences intrafamiliales soient majoritaires, les associations rencontrent des cas de violences commises dans les établissements scolaires, soit par des adultes sur des enfants, soit entre enfants (y compris des agressions sexuelles).

      • Un point crucial soulevé est la "loi du silence" et la difficulté de faire sortir la parole du milieu scolaire et de l'Éducation Nationale.

      Il existe des niveaux de frein à la remontée de l'information : * Au sein de l'école, où l'équipe peut avoir du mal à imaginer des problèmes ou à ne pas vouloir briser une alliance avec les parents ou la confiance en leurs collègues.

      • À un niveau hiérarchique supérieur, où l'information ne sort pas de l'Éducation Nationale et ne donne pas lieu à une information préoccupante ou un signalement, comme dans l'affaire de la petite Amandine.

      • La question du périscolaire est également soulevée, soulignant une déresponsabilisation possible entre l'école et la mairie.

      Les associations obtiennent des informations sur les violences en milieu scolaire de diverses manières :

      • Via des appels de parents ou d'anciennes victimes.

      • Par des appels de professionnels de l'Éducation Nationale qui ne savent pas comment réagir ou ne sont pas soutenus par leur hiérarchie.

      • Lors de leurs interventions de prévention dans les écoles, où les enfants font souvent des révélations.

      L'Enfant Bleu signale un nombre important de révélations suite à leurs interventions.

      3. La prévention, la formation et la culture de la protection :

      • La prévention est considérée comme essentielle. Les enfants ne connaissent souvent pas les différentes formes de violence ni les interdits, ce qui rend difficile pour eux de parler. Informer les enfants sur les violences et leurs droits est une priorité nationale.

      • La formation de la communauté éducative (enseignants et personnel périscolaire) est jugée indispensable.

      Beaucoup d'enseignants ne sont pas formés pour repérer, aborder le sujet avec les enfants, ou savent à peine comment faire une information préoccupante (IP).

      La formation leur donne des outils et les renforce.

      • Il est nécessaire de changer la culture actuelle, qui est davantage axée sur le déni, l'omerta et le "pas de vague", pour une culture de la protection où l'enfant est considéré comme une personne à part entière dont la parole doit être entendue immédiatement et suivie d'action.

      • Il est important d'informer les parents également sur les droits de l'enfant pour éviter les incompréhensions et les conflits.

      4. Le rôle et les difficultés des associations :

      • Les associations interviennent dans la prévention et le repérage des enfants victimes de violence, aidant un nombre significatif d'enfants.

      • Elles sont confrontées à la difficulté d'obtenir l'agrément de l'Éducation Nationale, ce qui peut freiner leurs interventions malgré la demande croissante.

      L'agrément est perçu comme une réassurance mais pas comme la seule condition d'intervention, les chefs d'établissement ayant une grande autonomie de décision.

      • Il semble y avoir une iniquité territoriale dans les possibilités d'intervention des associations.

      • Un point particulièrement critiqué est la règle, spécifiée par l'Éducation Nationale pour certaines associations, selon laquelle ce n'est pas aux associations de "recueillir" la parole de l'enfant, mais de la transmettre aux services sociaux.

      Cette distinction entre "accueil" et "recueil" est jugée absurde et contre-productive.

      • Les associations ont le sentiment de faire le travail que l'État devrait faire et manquent cruellement de moyens humains et financiers.

      Elles subissent des coupes budgétaires malgré l'urgence de la situation.

      5. Le constat d'un dysfonctionnement systémique et du manque de volonté politique :

      • Les intervenants, notamment Arnaud Galet de Mouve Enfant, expriment une amertume face au manque d'action malgré les nombreux rapports (rapport Sauvé, rapports de la CIVISE) qui ont documenté l'ampleur de la pédocriminalité et des violences et formulé des préconisations.

      • Il y a un dysfonctionnement hiérarchique avéré, notamment dans l'enseignement privé, où le secrétaire général de l'enseignement catholique lui-même reconnaît ne pas savoir ce qui se passe dans les établissements.

      • Le système de signalement et de traitement des informations préoccupantes (IP) est jugé inefficace.

      Les délais sont trop longs (jusqu'à 18 mois ou 2 ans pour les évaluations) et il n'y a pas de retour aux professionnels qui ont fait le signalement, ce qui nuit à la confiance.

      • Les intervenants dénoncent une absence de volonté politique forte pour mettre fin aux violences contre les enfants, malgré les chiffres alarmants (160 000 enfants victimes de violence sexuelle chaque année, un enfant meurt tous les 5 jours).

      • La commission d'enquête est vue avec un certain scepticisme au vu des expériences passées et du manque de suivi des rapports précédents.

      • L'absence de réponse du gouvernement français aux sollicitations du Comité des Droits de l'Enfant de l'ONU concernant les violences sexuelles dans l'Église est citée comme un exemple du manque d'action étatique.

      • L'idée d'un fichier centralisé des informations préoccupantes est soulevée comme un moyen essentiel de suivi, citant l'exemple tragique de la petite Marina.

      • La création d'un ministère de l'enfance et des familles est préconisée.

      6. Réflexions sur les programmes d'éducation à la vie affective, relationnelle et sexuelle (EVARS):

      • L'arrivée du programme EVARS est vue comme un levier potentiel, mais les associations sont dubitatifs quant au niveau de préparation du système scolaire, notamment le manque de formation des enseignants.

      • Les associations se sentent légitimes pour déployer ces programmes, mais sont confrontées à des réticences (culturelles et politiques) et à la difficulté d'obtenir l'agrément, même lorsqu'elles en ont un.

      • La formation des enseignants uniquement en ligne (type MOOC) n'est pas jugée suffisante ; un contact direct et des cas pratiques sont nécessaires.

      7. La question de la prescription:

      Une des intervenantes a exprimé clairement sa position en faveur de l'imprescriptibilité des crimes sexuels sur les enfants.

      Citations Importantes:

      • Arnaud Galet (Mouve Enfant): "je me suis dit quand même un peu mon étonnement d'être ici pour différentes raisons bien sûr j'entends qu'il y a la question de l'affaire Betaram [...] mais nous on est en tête je dis nous en tant que victime de pédocriminalité dans l'église et c'est important pour moi de le dire d'emblé vous saz j'ai fait partie des 22 signalements il y a eu 330000 victimes de pédo criminalité dans l'église en 70 ans d'accord c'est ce que nous a appris le rapport sauvé"

      • Arnaud Galet (Mouve Enfant): "quand on dit qu'il y a eu 30 % qu'a fait la ministre de l'éducation nationale le ministre par de l'éducation nationale de l'époque à savoir Jean-Michel Blanquer rien rien qu'a fait Éric Duporetti ministre de la justice on aurait pu imaginer comme en Belgique une justice d'exception rien c'est ça c'est ça notre sujet fondamental quand même qu'il s'agit d'amener ici"

      • Arnaud Galet (Mouve Enfant): "il dit bien qu'il y a pas de lien hiérarchique donc ça répond un peu à la question je veux dire on fait ce qu'on veut en fait d'autant plus dans l'établissement privé"

      • Arnaud Galet (Mouve Enfant): "on s'épuise en fait il faut le dire les choses de manière très claire [...] mais bon sang qu'est-ce qu'il nous faut quand même tout est déjà écrit"

      • Arnaud Galet (Mouve Enfant): "l'état de droit est en faillite sur cette questionlà faut regarder les chiffres 160000 enfants victimes chaque année de violence sexuelle trois enfants par classe un enfant meurt tous les 5 jours sur les coups de ses parents enfin je veux dire on est où ici"

      • Arnaud Galet (Mouve Enfant): "je me pose la question entre les affaires qu'on a aujourd'hui Betaram le squarnec au niveau de l'hôpital extin à quel moment est-ce qu'on a une obligation de résultat quand on accueille des enfants dans ce pays"

      • Nathalie Kouni (Les Maltraitances Moi J'en Parle): "les enfants ne connaissent pas les violences dans leur ensemble à part le harcèlement en tout cas ils ne savent pas ce que referment le mot violence donc déjà c'est important au niveau de la prévention et aussi ne connaissent pas les interdits des violences"

      • Nathalie Kouni (Les Maltraitances Moi J'en Parle): "la majeure partie des enseignants ne sont pas formé à cette thématique ne savent pas repérer un enfant ne savent même pas aborder le sujet avec eux ont peur"

      • Nathalie Kouni (Les Maltraitances Moi J'en Parle): "il faut que l'éducation nationale s'ouvre davantage aussi je veux dire j'ai une grande pensée pour les victimes de Betara mais toutes les victimes d'hier et d'aujourd'hui parce que en fait dans ces histoires on a l'impression qu'on voit des traqus d'enfants finalement qui sont victimes de violence de barbarie atroce"

      • Nathalie Kouni (Les Maltraitances Moi J'en Parle): "pas faire de bruit pas de vague donc déjà quand ça se passe sur les enfants au niveau intrafamilial c'est compliqué mais quand ça se passe dans les établissements je pense que ça allait encore plus pour que ça sorte ou en tout cas agir"

      • Nathalie Kouni (Les Maltraitances Moi J'en Parle): "il y a aucun retour sur les IP et les signalements ça crée un vrai problème de confiance aussi"

      • Nathalie Kouni (Les Maltraitances Moi J'en Parle): "globalement l'enfant n'est pas vendeur l'enfant ne vote pas l'enfant ne manifeste pas l'enfant se tait donc quand on veut faire des choses pour les enfants déjà il faut connaître les enfants se rendre compte que ce sont des personnes à part entière avec des droits"

      • Nathalie Kouni (Les Maltraitances Moi J'en Parle): "on n'est pas dans une culture de la protection on est toujours dans une culture de la violence bien sûr on est dans la culture du déni de l'omerta du pas faire de bruit donc il faut changer cette culture"

      • Laura Morin (l'Enfant Bleu): "nous faisons le travail que l'État devrait faire"

      • Laura Morin (l'Enfant Bleu): "il est anormal que lorsqu'un enfant change d'école s'il y a eu un signalement sur cet enfant que la l'école suc après la succès ouai j'ai le même problème que vous madame j'arrive pas à dire le drit que l'école suivante voilà que l'école suivante ne soit pas au courant qu'il y ait eu un signalement sur cette petite enfant cet enfant"

      • Aïda Adisadé (Ancienne cheffe de bureau à la DGESco): "il y a parfois des décisions politiques qui entourent qui qui régissent la délivrance de l'agrément oui ou non sur les questions d'éducation la sexualité"

      • Aïda Adisadé (Ancienne cheffe de bureau à la DGESco): "pour éviter de nouveau d'avoir à affronter des des appels de parents ou des remontées vous voyez de de parents énervés on préfère éviter de donner trop opinion sur eux à des associations qui vont venir parler de sexualité aux enfants"

      • Aïda Adisadé (Ancienne cheffe de bureau à la DGESco): "le recueil ou l'accueil de la parole de l'enfant on est un peu dans du délire l'enfant il ne décide pas quand est-ce qu'il va parler à un moment donné il parle et à ce moment-là il faut être prêt il faut être prêt pour l'écouter et il faut être prêt pour embrayer pour que sa parole débouge sur quelque chose"

      • Aïda Adisadé (Ancienne cheffe de bureau à la DGESco): "est-ce qu'il y a une culture du tabou d'une culture de l'omerta dans l'éducation et sur quoi elle repose c'est de ça dont on parle c'est ça qui a permis que Betaram continue pendant de temps d'années"

      Propositions Clés des Associations:

      • Généraliser l'information auprès des enfants partout où ils se trouvent.

      • Développer la formation de la communauté éducative (enseignants et personnel périscolaire), incluant une formation initiale et continue obligatoire.

      • Allouer des ressources humaines et financières conséquentes pour la protection de l'enfance, notamment en créant des référents violence dans les écoles.

      • Dimensionner la chaîne de protection à la hauteur de l'enjeu, avec une prise en charge immédiate et une aide psychologique et juridique pour chaque enfant.

      • Réduire et respecter les délais d'évaluation des informations préoccupantes (IP) et des signalements, et assurer un retour systématique aux professionnels qui les ont effectués.

      • Sensibiliser les parents par tous les moyens.

      • Mettre en place un plan d'action piloté au plus haut niveau de l'État, incluant la création d'un ministère de l'enfance et des familles.

      • Mettre en place un fichier centralisé des informations préoccupantes.

      • Rendre les crimes sexuels sur les enfants imprescriptibles.

      Questions en Suspens et Points à Approfondir pour la Commission:

      • Obtenir les comptes-rendus des Conseils Nationaux et Académiques d'Agrément (CNAP) pour comprendre les critères de refus et les décisions politiques.

      • Clarifier la distinction entre "accueil" et "recueil" de la parole de l'enfant et les protocoles en place.

      • Examiner en détail le plan "Brisons le silence, agissons ensemble" et évaluer sa pertinence et son efficacité par rapport aux préconisations des associations.

      • Analyser les freins hiérarchiques et culturels au sein de l'Éducation Nationale qui empêchent la remontée de l'information et l'action.

      • Évaluer la possibilité de mettre en place un système d'obligation de résultat pour la protection des enfants dans les établissements accueillant des mineurs.

      • Étudier la situation particulière des outre-mer en matière de violences faites aux enfants.

      • Approfondir l'analyse du manque de moyens alloués à l'aide sociale à l'enfance.

      • Cette audition met en lumière l'urgence de la situation et le sentiment d'impuissance et de frustration des associations face à l'ampleur des violences et au manque d'action politique malgré des diagnostics et des préconisations clairs.

      Elle souligne la nécessité d'un changement culturel profond et d'un engagement fort de l'État pour assurer une protection réelle et efficace des enfants en France.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      1. General Statements [optional]

      • *

      *We thank the reviewers for finding the manuscript enjoyable and well-written, with experiments that were performed well, show solid results and provide useful data for the community. The reviewers have provided meaningful feedback to improve this study. We have addressed the comments point-by-point below. The main text will also be further modified to incorporate new analysis where it has not yet been done. *

      • *

      • *

      2. Description of the planned revisions

      Reviewer 1:

      Summary OTX2 is a pivotal transcription factor that regulates the fate choice between somatic and primordial germ cell (PGC) lineages in early mouse development. In the current study, the authors use in vitro stem cell models to demonstrate that OTX2 mediates this developmental fate decision through controlling chromatin accessibility, whereby OTX2 helps to activate putative enhancers that are associated with somatic fate. By extension, those somatic-associated regulatory regions therefore become inaccessible in cells adopting PGC identity in which Otx2 is downregulated.

      Comments I enjoyed reading this manuscript. The experiments have been carried out well and for the most part the results provide convincing evidence to support the claims and conclusions in the manuscript. I particularly liked the experiments using the inducible Otx2 transgene to examine the acute changes in chromatin accessibility following restoration of OTX2.

      I include some suggestions below to the authors for additional analyses that I feel would further strengthen their study.

      I also felt that the authors focus almost exclusively on the subset of OTX2-bound sites that lose accessibility in the absence of OTX2. But, as they show in several figure panels, these sites tend to be the minority and that most OTX2-occupied sites do not lose accessibility in Otx2-null cells (actually, more sites tend to gain accessibility). I encourage the authors to modify the text and some of the analyses to give a better balance to their study. We are pleased that this reviewer enjoyed our manuscript. As suggested by the reviewer, we included analyses on the regions that are bound by OTX2 but do not show an increase in accessibility (see section 3 reviewer 1 point 6). The text will be expanded to include the new data and to include the description of the subset of OTX2 sites that do not show accessibility changes in the absence of OTX2. We have responded to other points they raised as detailed in the sections below

      • *

      Figure 1: The authors write: "...OTX2 binds mostly to putative enhancers." Whether these distal sites are enhancers is not sufficiently evidenced in the manuscript, but it is important information to collect to support their model of OTX2 function. The authors should strengthen their analysis by examining whether OTX2 peaks are enriched at previously defined enhancer regions.

      We plan to compare OTX2 bound regions with defined lists of enhancers identified in ESCs grown in Serum/LIF (e.g. Whyte et al 2013) and, if available, in 2i/LIF and EpiLCs. We will also analyse publicly available datasets for H3K4me1 (enhancer marker) and H3K27ac (marker of active regulatory regions) at the regions bound by OTX2 in ESCs and EpiLCs.

      Figure 2: I'm still puzzled why the authors did not examine flow-sorted WT+cyto cells?

      *We agree with the reviewer that it would be interesting to examine flow-sorted WT +cyto PGCLCs. Unfortunately, the expression of CD61 and SSEA1 only becomes visible from day 4 of PGCLC differentiation. Therefore, we were not able to isolate PGCLC at day 2 from WT cells differentiated in the presence of cytokines. We then used OTX2-/- cells at day 2 to model PGCLCs. This is based on the assumption that because day 6 Otx2-/- PGCLCs are transcriptionally similar to sorted day 6 WT cells (Zhang, Zhang et al Nature 2018), the same will be true at day 2. We will modify the text in the final version of this manuscript to clarify this point that has also been raised by reviewers 2 and 3. *

      • *

      Figure 3: I would be tempted to put Figure S3A and S3B into Figure 3. It would be better to show all 1246 DARs together, either ordered by OTX2 CT&RUN signal, or presented in two pre-defined groups (OTX2-bound vs unbound). I also suggest that the author show OTX2 signals and ATAC-seq signals for the 3028 DARs that gain accessibility in Otx2-null EpiLCs (this could be added to a supplemental figure).

      Although the analysis has been carried out and the figures have been amended, the main text will be modified in a future updated version of the manuscript to incorporate these results.

      • *

      Figure 3: What is special about the 8% of OTX2-bound site that lose accessibility, versus the 92% of sites that do not?

      *The 8% of the OTX2-bound regions that lose accessibility in the absence of OTX2 appear to be more sensitive to the loss of OTX2. One possible explanation is that the accessibility of the rest of OTX2 bound regions relies on other TFs, such as OCT4, that are expressed in EpiLCs. We will modify the main text to discuss this interesting point raised by the reviewer. *

      Figure 6F: If the 4221 sites are split into those bound by OTX2 versus those that are not (related to Figure 6C) then is there a difference? i.e. are the OTX2-bound sites opening up?

      We separated the 4,221 sites in OTX2 bound and unbound. The result is reported below:

      *Although there is a slight increase in accessibility in the OTX2 bound subset, the average accessibility reaches less than ¼ of the accessibility of these regions when OTX2 is present from day 0 to day 4, while the OTX2 unbound regions do not show an increase in accessibility. Although we can not rule out that a longer treatment with tamoxifen may lead to higher accessibility in the OTX2 bound subset, the dynamics are extremely slower compared to the EpiLC regions where accessibility reaches 50% of the d0-d4 sample in just 1 hour of tamoxifen treatment. *

      • *

      Is there any evidence that OTX2 binds and compacts PGCLC enhancers in somatic cells? I appreciate this is different to the main thrust of the authors' model, but being able to show that OTX2 does not compact these sites lends further support to their preferred model of OTX2 opening sites of somatic lineages.

      *Comparing the ATAC-seq in PGCLCs with ESCs and EpiLCs, we identify a subset of regions that are open in PGCLC only (PGCLC-specific accessible regions, see below). These regions do not show binding of OTX2 in WT EpiLCs or the d0-d2 Tam sample, suggesting that OTX2 does not bind and compact PGCLC-specific enhancers. *

      • *

      PGCLC-specific regions showing high accessibility only in PGCLCs.

      • OTX2 CUT&RUN signal in WT EpiLC, OTX2-ERT2 PGCLCs in presence or absence of Tamoxifen, showing that OTX2 does not bind PGCLC-specific regions even when it is overexpressed in GK15 medium.*

      *These analyses will be incorporated in the manuscript. *

      • *

      Discussion: Have prior studies established a connection between OTX2 and chromatin remodellers that can open chromatin? Or, if not, then perhaps this could be proposed as a line of future research.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting to amplify the discussion on the possible connection between OTX2 and chromatin remodellers. Although there is no evidence in the literature of a direct interaction between OTX2 and chromatin remodellers, this can not be excluded. The connection might also be indirect: OTX2 is known to interact with OCT4, which in turn interacts and recruits to chromatin the catalytic subunit of the SWI/SNF complex, BRG1. This point will be discussed in a modified version of the manuscript.

      • *

      • *

      Reviewer 2:

      Barbieri and Chambers explore the role of OTX2 on mouse pluripotency and differentiation. To do so, they examine how the chromatin accessibility and OTX2 binding landscape changes across pluripotency, the exit of pluripotency towards formative and primed states, and through to PGCLC/somatic differentiation. The work mostly represents a resource for the community, with possible implications for our understanding of how OTX2 might mediate the germline-soma switch of fates. While the findings of the work are modest, the results seem solid and the manuscript is clear and well-written.

      *We are pleased that this reviewer found our results solid and the manuscript clear. *

      I have some comments as indicated below:

      1. The comparison between Otx2-/- cells in the presence of PGCLC cytokines compared to WT cells in the absence of cytokines seems like it is missing controls to me. I assume the authors wanted to enable homogeneous populations to facilitate their bulk sequencing methods, but it seems to me like they are comparing apples with oranges. It would have been better to have the reciprocal situations (Otx2-/- cells in basal differentiation medium, and WT cells in PGCLC cytokines) with a sorting strategy to better unpick the differences between the presence and absence of Otx2 in the 2 protocols. Having said that, the authors are careful not to draw many comparisons between those populations so I don't think this omission affects their current claims. They should however clarify whether the flow cytometry (Supp Fig2) was used for sorting cells or if all cells were taken for bulk sequencing. *We agree with the reviewer that it would be of interest to compare the PGCLC and somatic population derived from the OTX2-/- cells in GK15 without cytokines with the same populations derived from WT cells differentiated in the presence of cytokines. Our work aims to identify what happens at the stages of PGCLC differentiation when cells are still competent for both germline and somatic differentiation. Previous work from the lab showed that this dual competence is lost after day 2, therefore we focus our attention on this time of differentiation. Unfortunately, the two surface markers characteristics of PGCs (CD61 and SSEA1) are not expressed at day2 and, therefore we are not able to sort PGCLCs derived from OTX2-/- cells in GK15 without cytokines or WT cells differentiated in the presence of cytokines. As recognised by this reviewer, we aimed to obtain two homogenous populations that can model PGCLCs and somatic cells. This is based on data obtained at day 6 when Otx2-/- PGCLCs show a similar transcriptome to sorted day 6 WT cells (Zhang, Zhang et al Nature 2018) and the assumption that the same will be true at day 2. We will clarify that the supplementary Figure 2 is not a sorting strategy. As this point has been raised by reviewers 1 and 2 as well, we will modify the text to clarify the choice and the assumption behind using OTX2-/- cells in the presence of cytokines and WT cells in the absence of cytokines to model PGCLCs and somatic cells respectively. *

      2. *

      Throughout the text, the authors subject cells (WT / Otx2-/- /Otx2ER ) to different protocols to look at accessibility and Otx2 binding, but with no mention of the cell fate differences that occur in these different conditions. For instance, it is unclear to me to which fate the WT cells without PGCLC cytokines go - I presume this is neural but perhaps this is a mixed fate, given that they are in GK15 rather than N2B27. Likewise, the OTX2ER experiments may promote a mixed population between PGCLC/somatic fates, and this is never described. Ideally transcriptomic data would be collected, but failing that, qPCR data should be obtained to examine this more closely.

      *We are planning to generate RT-qPCR data for germ layer markers (ectoderm, endoderm and mesoderm) in WT cells in GK15 without cytokines at day 2, as well as OTX2-ERT2 cells with and without Tamoxifen at day 2 (noTam, d0-d2) and day 4 (no Tam, d0-d4). *

      The authors also state that "OTX2 facilitates Fgf5 transcription' (page10) but provide no transcriptional data to substantiate this claim. Again RT-qPCR would help make this point.

      *We will analyse the level of Fgf5 by RT-qPCR in OTX2-ERT2 EpiLCs treated for 1 hour and 6 hours with Tamoxifen to show the effect of OTX2 on Fgf5 transcription. *

      • *

      It is unclear to me what the 'increase[d] accessibility' (eg abstract final sentence, Figure 3E) really means at the cellular level. Does this indicate that more cells have this site open, and does this have implications for the heterogeneity of cell fates observed? Since the authors are concerned with fate decisions, this seems like an important consideration that should at least be discussed.

      The possibility that the increased accessibility is due to higher heterogeneity in the population is interesting and it will be included in the discussion in a revised version of the manuscript.

      • *

      • *

      Reviewer 3:

      In this manuscript, the authors perform OTX2 CUT&RUN and ATAC-seq in Otx2-null and WT ESCs, EpiLCs and PGCLCs to understand whether the role of OTX2 in restricting mouse germline entry that they previously described (Zhang Nature 2018) mechanistically depends on chromatin remodeling. They identify differentially accessible regions (DARs) between Otx2-null and WT cells at different stages of differentiation and show that many of these are OTX2 bound in WT. They then show using cells expressing OTX2-ER^T2 in Otx2-null Epiblast cells that when OTX2 is moved into the nucleus, the regions that were differentially closed in Otx2-null open within an hour, suggesting chromatin accessibility is directly controlled by OTX2 (rather than indirect effects involving transcription and translation which one would expect to take longer). The scope is narrow, but this is nice work and useful data for the mouse PGC field. However, there are a few places where the data could be strengthened, and the writing is a little confusing in places, for example by stating as fact in early sections what is not proven until later.

      We thank the reviewer for finding our work nice and useful for the mouse PGC field, and for the useful comments to improve the manuscript. We have included new analysis and modified the text as suggested to improve the writing, avoiding early statements that were not fully proven until later in the manuscript. We have responded to other points they raised as detailed below and in the next section.

      • *

      1) "we compared Otx2-/- cells cultured in the presence of PGC-promoting cytokines with wild-type cells cultured in the absence of PGC-promoting cytokines. Under these conditions Otx2-/- cells produce an essentially pure (>90%) CD61+/SSEA1+ population that we refer to as PGCLCs, while wild-type cells yield a cell population from which PGCLCs are absent"

      This is not a controlled comparison since one cannot separate the day 2 effect of cytokines from that of the Otx2 knockout. The manuscript would be strengthened if the authors include WT somatic and PGCLCs from the +cytokine conditions, which could be easily sorted out as shown in Supp. Fig. 2. Ideally they would also include Otx2-null somatic cells, although Supp. Fig. 2 shows those are rare under the conditions considered.

      *This work aimed to analyse early stages of EpiLC to PGCLC differentiation when cells are still competent for both somatic and germline differentiation. This stage has been described previously to be at day 2 of differentiation in GK15 + cytokines (PGCLC differentiation medium, Zhang, Zhang et al, Nature 2018). Unfortunately, CD61 and SSEA1 are not expressed at day 2 of PGCLC differentiation, and they start to be expressed on the cell surface by day 4. Consequently, it is impossible to sort cells at day 2 using the CD61+/SSEA1+ strategy. To overcome this problem, we used WT cells grown in GK15 without cytokines to model a population of somatic cells and OTX2-/- cells grown in GK15+ cytokines to model a homogeneous population of PGCLCs. As explained in a similar point raised by reviewers 2 and 3, we assumed that, as OTX2-/- cells grown in the presence of cytokines are transcriptionally similar to sorted WT cells at day 6 (Zhang, Zhang et al, Nature 2018), OTX2-/- cells at day 2 are similar to their WT counterpart at day 2. The main text will be modified to clarify that we are using homogeneous populations to model both PGCLC and somatic cells and that Figure S2 does not show a sorting strategy. *

      • *

      3) "In ESCs, OTX2 binds We are planning to perform a statistical analysis to ascertain that the small number of DARs bound by OTX2 are or are not bound by chance by OTX2.

      • *

      4) It would be good if the discussion was broadened to include both human and other transcription factors that are involved. How much of these conclusions could one expect to carry over to human or other mammals? There is some work from the Surani lab considering OTX2 in human. One could even look at published ATAC or OTX2 chip-seq data in hPSCs and potentially learn something interesting. Furthermore, there are studies on other transcription factors modulating chromatin accessibility in the decision between germline and somatic cells, for example PRDM1, PRDM14 (refs in e.g. Tang et al Nat Rev Gen 2016) or TFAP2A (at least in human (Chen et al Cell Rep 2019)). Do these factors affect the same genes? Is a coherent picture emerging of their respective roles in germline entry?

      *As suggested by the reviewer, we will discuss the role of OTX2 in human PGCLC formation and include studies on PGC-specific transcription factors concerning changes in chromatin accessibility in germline and somatic cells. This will be included in a revised version of the manuscript. *

      • *

      • *

      3. Description of the revisions that have already been incorporated in the transferred manuscript

      Reviewer 1:

      1. Figure 1: The authors report in the methods that they performed OTX2 CUT&RUN in biological duplicates. It would strengthen their results if they showed in Figure S1 some representative data from each replicate separately to show the consistency. As suggested by the reviewer to show consistency between replicates, two representative tracks of the two CUT&RUN replicates at the Tet2 (ESCs) and Fgf5 (EpiLCs) loci have been included in Figure S1A. The corresponding tracks of the average bigwig files are reported in Figure 1E. The main text (page 5) and the figure legends have been amended to incorporate the new panels.

      2. *

      Figure 2: I think it would be helpful to remind the reader here that Otx2 is normally downregulated in PGCs, and that Otx2 expression is maintained (at least initially) in somatic cells. This would help explain the logic behind the choice of samples that were profiled.

      We modified the text with the following sentence, as suggested by the reviewer, emphasising the level of OTX2 in early somatic vs early PGCLCs: “Otx2 expression is rapidly downregulated in the EpiLC to PGCLC transition while its expression is maintained longer in cells entering the somatic lineage [8]*” (page 7). *

      • *

      Figure 2D: I appreciate that the highlighted region at the Tet2 locus is a DAR, but from the genome tracks it looks as though the region still has high accessibility. Are there any other examples to exemplify a more obvious DAR? Additionally, since twice as many DARs gain accessibility in Otx2-null ESCs compared to lose accessibility, why not show examples of these as well? The same is true of EpiLCs. (Or alternatively, provide a good explanation for why not to show these other categories)

      We substituted the Tet2 DAR with a more clear example of ESC DAR located in the Hes1 locus that shows low accessibility in Otx2-/- ESCs versus WT ESCs. Examples of ESC DARs and EpiLC DARs that show higher accessibility in Otx2-/- vs WT cells have been added as new panels 2E (DAR in Pebp4 locus) and 2G (DAR in Tdh locus). We also simplified the panels showing only ATAC-seq tracks in WT and OTX2-/- cells, either ESCs (2D-E) or EpiLCs (G-H). Text and figure legends have been modified to accommodate the changes made in Figure 2.

      • *

      Figure 3: I would be tempted to put Figure S3A and S3B into Figure 3. It would be better to show all 1246 DARs together, either ordered by OTX2 CT&RUN signal, or presented in two pre-defined groups (OTX2-bound vs unbound). I also suggest that the author show OTX2 signals and ATAC-seq signals for the 3028 DARs that gain accessibility in Otx2-null EpiLCs (this could be added to a supplemental figure).

      Figures S3A and S3B have been moved to the main figure. Figure S3A is now part of Figure 3C, where all the 1,246 DARs are shown together, separated into two groups (OTX2-bound and -unbound). Figure S3B is now part of Figure 3F. A new heatmap showing the OTX2 and ATAC-seq signals for the 3028 regions that gain accessibility in Otx2-/- EpiLCs has been added as new Figure S3B. Only 28 out of the 3,028 regions overlap an OTX2 peak as shown in the new Figure S3A. These regions appear to be already open in ESCs (Figure S3C) and they do not fully close when OTX2 is absent. This can be explained by either a) the lack of expression of an OTX2 target gene that represses these regions or b) the continuous expression of a gene that is usually repressed by OTX2 in the transition to EpiLCs. In both cases, OTX2 does not directly repress these regions. Figure legends have been amended to incorporate the new panels. The main text will be modified to incorporate these results.

      • *

      Figure 6: Do the PGCLCs with OTX2 expression have chromatin accessibility profiles similar to somatic cells? Consider adding WT somatic cell data to Figure 6A, which could be an interesting comparison with the Tam d0-d2 samples.

      *The heatmap showing the ATAC-seq signal at the additional OTX2-induced regions in somatic cells has been added to Figure 6A. The data show that the regions induced by OTX2 are not open in somatic cells generated in GK15. One possible explanation is the overexpression of OTX2 induces the opening of neural-associated regions, but neural differentiation is not fully supported in GK15 medium (see reviewer 2, point 3). As suggested by reviewer 2, we will perform RT-qPCR of germ layer markers to analyse the identity of somatic cells grown in GK15 (without cytokines) and somatic cells induced by OTX2 overexpression. *

      • *

      • *

      • *

      Reviewer 2:

      The authors focus solely on the activating role of Otx2 in their data, but given the substantial proportion of DARs that decrease following Otx2 depletion, I presume it is possible that it also has a repressive effect? Either way, this should be discussed.

      *As also suggested by reviewer 1 (point 6), we analysed the accessibility level and the OTX2 signal at the 3,028 regions that gain accessibility in Otx2-/- EpiLCs (new Figure S3A-C). These regions show high accessibility in ESCs suggesting that these are ESC regions that do not close properly in the transition to EpiLCs in the absence of OTX2. OTX2 CUT&RUN show a low to absent signal at these regions, with just 28 regions overlapping EpiLCs DARs that show higher accessibility in Otx2-/- cells, suggesting that OTX2 does not have a direct suppressive effect on them. *

      • *

      The authors state that d2 PGCLCs "show an intermediate position between ESCs and EpiLCs" based on the PCA location. They should be careful to qualify that this is only in the first 2 principal components, because it may well be the case (and is likely) that in other components the PGCLC population is far removed from the pluripotent states.

      • The text has been updated as follows: d2 PGCLCs “show an intermediate position between ESCs and EpiLCs on both PC1 and PC2”.*

      • *

      Reviewer2 Minor Suggestions:

      1. Presumably the regions bound by OTX2 in Tet2, Mycn and Fgf5 (Fig1E) are called enhancers because these are known from existing literature. It would be helpful to cite the relevant references to this in the text for those unfamiliar with these. References (Whyte et al, Cell, 2018 – Tet2 and Mycn, Buecker et al, Cell Stem Cell, 2013, Thomas et al, Mol Cell 2021 – Fgf5) have been added to the text and the figure legends.

      On page 13, the authors say "To determine whether OTX2 expression is essential to maintain chromatin accessibility in somatic cells..." but this does not seem to be what they test because they are using PGCLC medium. Perhaps I misunderstood, but this could be clarified.

      *Expression of OTX2 during the first 2 days of PGCLC differentiation leads to a block of germline differentiation as previously shown in Zhang, Zhang et al, Nature 2018. After 2 days of tamoxifen treatment, cells have acquired somatic fate and cells will undergo somatic differentiation even after tamoxifen is withdrawn after day 2. Nevertheless, we agree with the reviewer that the sentence is of difficult interpretation and we modified the sentence as shown below and as reported in the updated manuscript: “To determine whether OTX2 expression is essential to maintain chromatin accessibility in cells differentiating in the presence of PGC-inducing cytokines after day 2” (page 12). *

      On page 14 the authors claim, "These results indicate that...the partner proteins that OTX2 act alongside differ...". While this may be the case, their results do not substantiate this, it is just speculation. Should be toned down.

      The text has been modified as follows: "These results suggest that...the partner proteins that OTX2 act alongside differ..."

      Page 18, PGCLC differentiation method sections needs to be described as such (ie. Add "For PGCLC differentiation..." before the second paragraph)

      *The text “For PGCLC differentiation” has been added at the beginning of the PGCLC differentiation method section. *

      It would be helpful to indicate time on the protocol schematics (eg Fig4A, 5A, 5D etc) as I had to keep checking the methods to find out how long the full differentiation time-course was.

      *Indication of time has been added to Figures 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6. *

      Since the authors compare between the Tam d0-d2 treatments assessed at d2 versus d4 (Figure5B vs 5E) it would be helpful to make the colourbars the same scale, for both ATAC and Cut&Run datasets.

      *The heatmap in Figure 5B has been modified. The colourbars of Figure 5B and 5E are now using the same scale. *

      • *

      Reviewer 3:

      1) As a minor point related to this, the second sentence is confusing since it kind of sounds like Otx2-/- and WT cells are compared under the same conditions unless one carefully reads the previous sentence.

      The text has been modified to clarify the different medium conditions for WT and OTX2-/- cells, as follows: “In the presence of PGC-inducing cytokines, Otx2-/- cells produce an essentially pure (>90%) CD61+/SSEA1+ population that we refer to as PGCLCs, while wild-type cells differentiated in GK15 medium without cytokines yield a cell population from which PGCLCs are absent” (page 7).

      • *

      2) "This suggests that OTX2 acts as a pioneer TF to regulate the accessibility of enhancers E1, E2 and E3."

      This is from the text corresponding to Fig. 2. That data actually only shows that Otx2-null cells have DARs, so somehow OTX2 affects chromatin accessibility but it could be indirect by controlling transcription of genes that modify chromatin accessibility. It is not until figure 4 that the data suggests that OTX2 directly affects accessibility, perhaps as a pioneer TF.

      The authors continue to make many statements about the direct action of OTX2 before the data supporting this is shown, on which I got hung up as a reader. I suggest the authors edit the manuscript to improve this. E.g. "OTX2 may directly control accessibility at these sites (Figure 3E)." and the fact that in 3E and other figure, it says "DARs increased by OTX2 binding" which at that point is not proven, so would better say "Otx2-null vs WT DARs" or something like that.

      The sentence "This suggests that OTX2 acts as a pioneer TF to regulate..” has been removed from the text (page 9). The sentence “OTX2 may directly control accessibility at these sites” has been modified with “*suggesting that the presence of OTX2 affects accessibility at these sites” (page 9). The sentence “ Together, these results suggest that OTX2 is required to open these chromatin regions” has been modified to “Together, these results suggest that OTX2 is required for the accessibility of these chromatin regions”. *

      The subset of DARs that increase in WT EpiLC and are bound by OTX2 that was called “DARs increased by OTX2 binding” has been renamed as “DARs higher in WT with OTX2 binding”. For consistency, the subset of DARs showing increased accessibility in WT EpiLCs that are not bound by OTX2 are now called “DARs higher in WT without OTX2 binding” (Figure 3, Figure 4, main text and figure legends). We will further revise the manuscript to avoid statements or hypotheses that are not yet supported by data throughout the text.

      • *

      Reviewer 3 – minor comments:

      1) "Comparing wild-type and Otx2-/- ESCs identified 375 differentially accessible regions (DARs) with increased accessibility in wild-type cells, and 743 regions with higher accessibility in Otx2-/- ESCs (Figures 2C). An example of ESC DARs where accessibility is increased in cells expressing OTX2 is the intragenic enhancer of Tet2. Tet2 is expressed at high levels in ESCs but at low levels in EpiLCs."

      The authors compare Otx2-null and WT ESCs then proceed to give an example comparing ESCs to EpiLCs, instead of Otx2-null vs WT ESCs, which is confusing.

      Furthermore, here and in other places the authors describe ESCs as not expressing OTX2. However, they also show CUT&RUN data for OTX2 in ESCs etc, clearly indicating that it is expressed, just lower (otherwise how could one get anything?).

      *We originally chose Tet2 enhancer as an example of the 375 ESC DAR with higher accessibility in WT vs Otx2-/- ESCs as it shows a slightly decreased level of accessibility and OTX2 binding in ESCs. Therefore, the sentence “where accessibility is increased in cells expressing OTX2” refers to WT cells (expressing OTX2) when compared to Otx2-/- cells (OTX2-null). The text has been changed to describe the new panel. The rest of the main text will be checked and modified where appropriate to avoid possible misinterpretations. *

      *We also appreciate that the change in accessibility is not clearly visible in the original Figure 2, as also pointed out by Reviewer 1 (point 6). In the updated Figure 2, we show a region in the Hes1 locus as an example of the 375 ESC DARs. Moreover, we simplified the panels showing ATAC-seq tracks of WT and OTX2-/- ESC (Fig. 2D-E) or EpiLCs (Fig. G-H). *

      2) "In contrast, in EpiLCs, OTX2 binds almost 40% (446 out of 1,246) of the DARs that are more accessible in wild-type than in Otx2-/- cells (Figure 3B-C). Notably, these regions are mainly located distal to genes (91%, Figure 3D), despite the increased fraction of promoter regions bound by OTX2 in EpiLCs (Figure S1A)."

      Are the authors rounding percentages with 2 significant digits, as suggested by the "91%"? If so, 446/1245 ~ 36%, not 40%.

      *The text has been modified from “OTX2 binds almost 40%” to “OTX2 binds 36%”. *

      3) The results in Figure 4 are nice and the real meat of the paper. One suggestion: It would be helpful is Fig. 4B were split up between the 446 and 800 genes instead of showing all 1246, and if the WT control was shown in the same figure as well.

      *Panels with the 446 and 800 regions have been added to Figure 4 instead of the panels with all 1246 regions. WT control has been inserted in Figure 4. The main text and the figure legends have been updated accordingly. *

      4) "Enforced OTX2 expression opens additional somatic regulatory regions" - it would be clearer to say "OTX2 overexpression opens additional somatic regulatory regions", since this is really about DARs between EpiLCs that already express OTX2 and those forced to express higher than WT endogenous levels by the OTX2-ER system?

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. The text has been modified (page 12)

      • *

      • *

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors perform OTX2 CUT&RUN and ATAC-seq in Otx2-null and WT ESCs, EpiLCs and PGCLCs to understand whether the role of OTX2 in restricting mouse germline entry that they previously described (Zhang Nature 2018) mechanistically depends on chromatin remodeling. They identify differentially accessible regions (DARs) between Otx2-null and WT cells at different stages of differentiation and show that many of these are OTX2 bound in WT. They then show using cells expressing OTX2-ER^T2 in Otx2-null Epiblast cells that when OTX2 is moved into the nucleus, the regions that were differentially closed in Otx2-null open within an hour, suggesting chromatin accessibility is directly controlled by OTX2 (rather than indirect effects involving transcription and translation which one would expect to take longer). The scope is narrow, but this is nice work and useful data for the mouse PGC field. However, there are a few places where the data could be strengthened, and the writing is a little confusing in places, for example by stating as fact in early sections what is not proven until later.

      Major Comments:

      1. "we compared Otx2-/- cells cultured in the presence of PGC-promoting cytokines with wild-type cells cultured in the absence of PGC-promoting cytokines. Under these conditions Otx2-/- cells produce an essentially pure (>90%) CD61+/SSEA1+ population that we refer to as PGCLCs, while wild-type cells yield a cell population from which PGCLCs are absent"

      This is not a controlled comparison since one cannot separate the day 2 effect of cytokines from that of the Otx2 knockout. The manuscript would be strengthened if the authors include WT somatic and PGCLCs from the +cytokine conditions, which could be easily sorted out as shown in Supp. Fig. 2. Ideally they would also include Otx2-null somatic cells, although Supp. Fig. 2 shows those are rare under the conditions considered.

      As a minor point related to this, the second sentence is confusing since it kind of sounds like Otx2-/- and WT cells are compared under the same conditions unless one carefully reads the previous sentence. 2. "This suggests that OTX2 acts as a pioneer TF to regulate the accessibility of enhancers E1, E2 and E3."

      This is from the text corresponding to Fig. 2. That data actually only shows that Otx2-null cells have DARs, so somehow OTX2 affects chromatin accessibility but it could be indirect by controlling transcription of genes that modify chromatin accessibility. It is not until figure 4 that the data suggests that OTX2 directly affects accessibility, perhaps as a pioneer TF.

      The authors continue to make many statements about the direct action of OTX2 before the data supporting this is shown, on which I got hung up as a reader. I suggest the authors edit the manuscript to improve this. E.g. "OTX2 may directly control accessibility at these sites (Figure 3E)." and the fact that in 3E and other figure, it says "DARs increased by OTX2 binding" which at that point is not proven, so would better say "Otx2-null vs WT DARs" or something like that. 3. "In ESCs, OTX2 binds <10% (30 out of 375) of DARs that are more accessible in wild-type cells than in Otx2-/- cells (Figure 3A), suggesting that accessibility of ESC DARs is directly due to OTX2 in a small subset of DARs."

      When a small number of DARs are OTX2 bound, it does not necessarily suggest that that small set is directly affected by OTX2. It could just mean no DARs are controlled directly by OTX2 and then some are bound by chance by OTX2. Some appropriate statistical null hypotheses about the occurrence of OTX2 motifs might help to see if 10% is more than chance. 4. It would be good if the discussion was broadened to include both human and other transcription factors that are involved. How much of these conclusions could one expect to carry over to human or other mammals? There is some work from the Surani lab considering OTX2 in human. One could even look at published ATAC or OTX2 chip-seq data in hPSCs and potentially learn something interesting. Furthermore, there are studies on other transcription factors modulating chromatin accessibility in the decision between germline and somatic cells, for example PRDM1, PRDM14 (refs in e.g. Tang et al Nat Rev Gen 2016) or TFAP2A (at least in human (Chen et al Cell Rep 2019)). Do these factors affect the same genes? Is a coherent picture emerging of their respective roles in germline entry?

      Minor comments:

      1. "Comparing wild-type and Otx2-/- ESCs identified 375 differentially accessible regions (DARs) with increased accessibility in wild-type cells, and 743 regions with higher accessibility in Otx2-/- ESCs (Figures 2C). An example of ESC DARs where accessibility is increased in cells expressing OTX2 is the intragenic enhancer of Tet2. Tet2 is expressed at high levels in ESCs but at low levels in EpiLCs."

      The authors compare Otx2-null and WT ESCs then proceed to give an example comparing ESCs to EpiLCs, instead of Otx2-null vs WT ESCs, which is confusing. Furthermore, here and in other places the authors describe ESCs as not expressing OTX2. However, they also show CUT&RUN data for OTX2 in ESCs etc, clearly indicating that it is expressed, just lower (otherwise how could one get anything?). 2. "In contrast, in EpiLCs, OTX2 binds almost 40% (446 out of 1,246) of the DARs that are more accessible in wild-type than in Otx2-/- cells (Figure 3B-C). Notably, these regions are mainly located distal to genes (91%, Figure 3D), despite the increased fraction of promoter regions bound by OTX2 in EpiLCs (Figure S1A)."

      Are the authors rounding percentages with 2 significant digits, as suggested by the "91%"? If so, 446/1245 ~ 36%, not 40%. 3. The results in Figure 4 are nice and the real meat of the paper. One suggestion: It would be helpful is Fig. 4B were split up between the 446 and 800 genes instead of showing all 1246, and if the WT control was shown in the same figure as well. 4. "Enforced OTX2 expression opens additional somatic regulatory regions" - it would be clearer to say "OTX2 overexpression opens additional somatic regulatory regions", since this is really about DARs between EpiLCs that already express OTX2 and those forced to express higher than WT endogenous levels by the OTX2-ER system?

      Significance

      Also see summary. Understanding what restricts cells to germline vs somatic lineages is an important question. By providing functional data showing that OTX2 directly controls chromatin accessibility, the authors add an important layer of understanding to their previous finding that OTX2 plays a key role in preventing mouse germline entry. The use of their previously established OTX2-null cells expressing OTX2-ER to rapidly induce nuclear OTX2 in a mutant background or the most part makes their experiments elegant and convincing. In focusing on the role of one gene in one event in one species, it is specialized and narrow in scope and will mostly be of interest to experts in the field, but there is nothing wrong with that.

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary

      OTX2 is a pivotal transcription factor that regulates the fate choice between somatic and primordial germ cell (PGC) lineages in early mouse development. In the current study, the authors use in vitro stem cell models to demonstrate that OTX2 mediates this developmental fate decision through controlling chromatin accessibility, whereby OTX2 helps to activate putative enhancers that are associated with somatic fate. By extension, those somatic-associated regulatory regions therefore become inaccessible in cells adopting PGC identity in which Otx2 is downregulated.

      Comments

      I enjoyed reading this manuscript. The experiments have been carried out well and for the most part the results provide convincing evidence to support the claims and conclusions in the manuscript. I particularly liked the experiments using the inducible Otx2 transgene to examine the acute changes in chromatin accessibility following restoration of OTX2.

      I include some suggestions below to the authors for additional analyses that I feel would further strengthen their study.

      I also felt that the authors focus almost exclusively on the subset of OTX2-bound sites that lose accessibility in the absence of OTX2. But, as they show in several figure panels, these sites tend to be the minority and that most OTX2-occupied sites do not lose accessibility in Otx2-null cells (actually, more sites tend to gain accessibility). I encourage the authors to modify the text and some of the analyses to give a better balance to their study.

      1. Figure 1: The authors report in the methods that they performed OTX2 CUT&RUN in biological duplicates. It would strengthen their results if they showed in Figure S1 some representative data from each replicate separately to show the consistency.
      2. Figure 1: The authors write: "...OTX2 binds mostly to putative enhancers." Whether these distal sites are enhancers is not sufficiently evidenced in the manuscript, but it is important information to collect to support their model of OTX2 function. The authors should strengthen their analysis by examining whether OTX2 peaks are enriched at previously defined enhancer regions.
      3. Figure 2: I think it would be helpful to remind the reader here that Otx2 is normally downregulated in PGCs, and that Otx2 expression is maintained (at least initially) in somatic cells. This would help explain the logic behind the choice of samples that were profiled. That said, I'm still puzzled why the authors did not examine flow-sorted WT+cyto cells?
      4. Figure 2D: I appreciate that the highlighted region at the Tet2 locus is a DAR, but from the genome tracks it looks as though the region still has high accessibility. Are there any other examples to exemplify a more obvious DAR? Additionally, since twice as many DARs gain accessibility in Otx2-null ESCs compared to lose accessibility, why not show examples of these as well? The same is true of EpiLCs. (Or alternatively, provide a good explanation for why not to show these other categories)
      5. Figure 2: the authors write: "This suggests that OTX2 acts as a pioneer TF...". However, at this point in the manuscript, there is no evidence to support that OTX2 might have pioneer activity. I think this claim would be better suited to later in the manuscript, or in the discussion, following the finding that reintroduction of OTX2 can induce chromatin accessibility at previously closed sites.
      6. Figure 3: I would be tempted to put Figure S3A and S3B into Figure 3. It would be better to show all 1246 DARs together, either ordered by OTX2 CT&RUN signal, or presented in two pre-defined groups (OTX2-bound vs unbound). I also suggest that the author show OTX2 signals and ATAC-seq signals for the 3028 DARs that gain accessibility in Otx2-null EpiLCs (this could be added to a supplemental figure).
      7. Figure 3: What is special about the 8% of OTX2-bound site that lose accessibility, versus the 92% of sites that do not?
      8. Figure 6: Do the PGCLCs with OTX2 expression have chromatin accessibility profiles similar to somatic cells? Consider adding WT somatic cell data to Figure 6A, which could be an interesting comparison with the Tam d0-d2 samples.
      9. Figure 6F: If the 4221 sites are split into those bound by OTX2 versus those that are not (related to Figure 6C) then is there a difference? i.e. are the OTX2-bound sites opening up?
      10. Is there any evidence that OTX2 binds and compacts PGCLC enhancers in somatic cells? I appreciate this is different to the main thrust of the authors' model, but being able to show that OTX2 does not compact these sites lends further support to their preferred model of OTX2 opening sites of somatic lineages.
      11. Discussion: Have prior studies established a connection between OTX2 and chromatin remodellers that can open chromatin? Or, if not, then perhaps this could be proposed as a line of future research.

      Significance

      Strengths

      The results presented provide a careful dissection of the role of OTX2 in controlling chromatin accessibility in different stages of pluripotent to somatic and PGC fates. The authors do a good job of revealing the stage-specific differences in OTX2 occupancy and chromatin accessibility as well as the different responses following the acute reintroduction of OTX2.

      Limitations

      I felt that the authors could present/discuss a bit more on alternative possibilities and models, as it would help the reader to better understand why they favour one model over other ones, and presenting these other possibilities could also provide more support for their preferred model.

      Whether OTX2 is binding to putative enhancers is inferred but could be evidenced more strongly, as that is important for their model.

      Advance

      This study provides key information to understand the mechanisms of OTX2 function in cell fate choice. Similar functions have been shown in other contexts for other transcription factors, but this is a nicely done study and adds to our understanding of how transcription factors function in early development to direct cell-fate decisions.

      Expertise

      My field of expertise lies in the gene regulatory control of early developmental decisions.

    1. Author response:

      General Statements

      In our manuscript, we demonstrate for the first time that RNA Polymerase I (Pol I) can prematurely release nascent transcripts at the 5' end of ribosomal DNA transcription units in vivo. This achievement was made possible by comparing wild-type Pol I with a mutant form of Pol I, hereafter called SuperPol previously isolated in our lab (Darrière at al., 2019). By combining in vivo analysis of rRNA synthesis (using pulse-labelling of nascent transcript and cross-linking of nascent transcript - CRAC) with in vitro analysis, we could show that Superpol reduced premature transcript release due to altered elongation dynamics and reduced RNA cleavage activity. Such premature release could reflect regulatory mechanisms controlling rRNA synthesis. Importantly, This increased processivity of SuperPol is correlated with resistance with BMH-21, a novel anticancer drugs inhibiting Pol I, showing the relevance of targeting Pol I during transcriptional pauses to kill cancer cells. This work offers critical insights into Pol I dynamics, rRNA transcription regulation, and implications for cancer therapeutics.

      We sincerely thank the three reviewers for their insightful comments and recognition of the strengths and weaknesses of our study. Their acknowledgment of our rigorous methodology, the relevance of our findings on rRNA transcription regulation, and the significant enzymatic properties of the SuperPol mutant is highly appreciated. We are particularly grateful for their appreciation of the potential scientific impact of this work. Additionally, we value the reviewer’s suggestion that this article could address a broad scientific community, including in transcription biology and cancer therapy research. These encouraging remarks motivate us to refine and expand upon our findings further.

      All three reviewers acknowledged the increased processivity of SuperPol compared to its wildtype counterpart. However, two out of three questions our claims that premature termination of transcription can regulate ribosomal RNA transcription. This conclusion is based on SuperPol mutant increasing rRNA production. Proving that modulation of early transcription termination is used to regulate rRNA production under physiological conditions is beyond the scope of this study. Therefore, we propose to change the title of this manuscript to focus on what we have unambiguously demonstrated:

      “Ribosomal RNA synthesis by RNA polymerase I is subjected to premature termination of transcription”.

      Reviewer 1 main criticisms centers on the use of the CRAC technique in our study. While we address this point in detail below, we would like to emphasize that, although we agree with the reviewer’s comments regarding its application to Pol II studies, by limiting contamination with mature rRNA, CRAC remains the only suitable method for studying Pol I elongation over the entire transcription units. All other methods are massively contaminated with fragments of mature RNA which prevents any quantitative analysis of read distribution within rDNA.  This perspective is widely accepted within the Pol I research community, as CRAC provides a robust approach to capturing transcriptional dynamics specific to Pol I activity. 

      We hope that these findings will resonate with the readership of your journal and contribute significantly to advancing discussions in transcription biology and related fields.

      (1) Description of the planned revisions

      Despite numerous text modification (see below), we agree that one major point of discussion is the consequence of increased processivity in SuperPol mutant on the “quality” of produced rRNA. Reviewer 3 suggested comparisons with other processive alleles, such as the rpb1-E1103G mutant of the RNAPII subunit (Malagon et al., 2006). This comparison has already been addressed by the Schneider lab (Viktorovskaya OV, Cell Rep., 2013 - PMID: 23994471), which explored Pol II (rpb1-E1103G) and Pol I (rpa190-E1224G). The rpa190-E1224G mutant revealed enhanced pausing in vitro, highlighting key differences between Pol I and Pol II catalytic ratelimiting steps (see David Schneider's review on this topic for further details).

      Reviewer 2 and 3 suggested that a decreased efficiency of cleavage upon backtracking might imply an increased error rate in SuperPol compared to the wild-type enzyme. Pol I mutant with decreased rRNA cleavage have been characterized previously, and resulted in increased errorrate. We already started to address this point. Preliminary results from in vitro experiments suggest that SuperPol mutants exhibit an elevated error rate during transcription. However, these findings remain preliminary and require further experimental validation to confirm their reproducibility and robustness. We propose to consolidate these data and incorporate into the manuscript to address this question comprehensively. This could provide valuable insights into the mechanistic differences between SuperPol and the wild-type enzyme. SuperPol is the first pol I mutant described with an increased processivity in vitro and in vivo, and we agree that this might be at the cost of a decreased fidelity.

      Regulatory aspect of the process:

      To address the reviewer’s remarks, we propose to test our model by performing experiments that would evaluate PTT levels in Pol I mutant’s or under different growth conditions. These experiments would provide crucial data to support our model, which suggests that PTT is a regulatory element of Pol I transcription. By demonstrating how PTT varies with environmental factors, we aim to strengthen the hypothesis that premature termination plays an important role in regulating Pol I activity.

      We propose revising the title and conclusions of the manuscript. The updated version will better reflect the study's focus and temper claims regarding the regulatory aspects of termination events, while maintaining the value of our proposed model.

      (2) Description of the revisions that have already been incorporated in the transferred manuscript

      Some very important modifications have now been incorporated:

      Statistical Analyses and CRAC Replicates:

      Unlike reviewers 2 and 3, reviewer 1 suggests that we did not analyze the results statistically. In fact, the CRAC analyses were conducted in biological triplicate, ensuring robustness and reproducibility. The statistical analyses are presented in Figure 2C, which highlights significant findings supporting the fact WT Pol I and SuperPol distribution profiles are different. We CRAC replicates exhibit a high correlation and we confirmed significant effect in each region of interest (5’ETS, 18S.2, 25S.1 and 3’ ETS, Figure 1) to confirm consistency across experiments. We finally took care not to overinterpret the results, maintaining a rigorous and cautious approach in our analysis to ensure accurate conclusions.

      CRAC vs. Net-seq:

      Reviewer 1 ask to comment differences between CRAC and Net-seq. Both methods complement each other but serve different purposes depending on the biological question on the context of transcription analysis. Net-seq has originally been designed for Pol II analysis. It captures nascent RNAs but does not eliminate mature ribosomal RNAs (rRNAs), leading to high levels of contamination. While this is manageable for Pol II analysis (in silico elimination of reads corresponding to rRNAs), it poses a significant problem for Pol I due to the dominance of rRNAs (60% of total RNAs in yeast), which share sequences with nascent Pol I transcripts. As a result, large Net-seq peaks are observed at mature rRNA extremities (Clarke 2018, Jacobs 2022). This limits the interpretation of the results to the short lived pre-rRNA species. In contrast, CRAC has been specifically adapted by the laboratory of David Tollervey to map Pol I distribution while minimizing contamination from mature rRNAs (The CRAC protocol used exclusively recovers RNAs with 3′ hydroxyl groups that represent endogenous 3′ ends of nascent transcripts, thus removing RNAs with 3’-Phosphate, found in mature rRNAs). This makes CRAC more suitable for studying Pol I transcription, including polymerase pausing and distribution along rDNA, providing quantitative dataset for the entire rDNA gene.

      CRAC vs. Other Methods:

      Reviewer 1 suggests using GRO-seq or TT-seq, but the experiments in Figure 2 aim to assess the distribution profile of Pol I along the rDNA, which requires a method optimized for this specific purpose. While GRO-seq and TT-seq are excellent for measuring RNA synthesis and cotranscriptional processing, they rely on Sarkosyl treatment to permeabilize cellular and nuclear membranes. Sarkosyl is known to artificially induces polymerase pausing and inhibits RNase activities which are involved in the process. To avoid these artifacts, CRAC analysis is a direct and fully in vivo approach. In CRAC experiment, cells are grown exponentially in rich media and arrested via rapid cross-linking, providing precise and artifact-free data on Pol I activity and pausing.

      Pol I ChIP Signal Comparison:

      The ChIP experiments previously published in Darrière et al. lack the statistical depth and resolution offered by our CRAC analyses. The detailed results obtained through CRAC would have been impossible to detect using classical ChIP. The current study provides a more refined and precise understanding of Pol I distribution and dynamics, highlighting the advantages of CRAC over traditional methods in addressing these complex transcriptional processes.

      BMH-21 Effects:

      As highlighted by Reviewer 1, the effects of BMH-21 observed in our study differ slightly from those reported in earlier work (Ref Schneider 2022), likely due to variations in experimental conditions, such as methodologies (CRAC vs. Net-seq), as discussed earlier. We also identified variations in the response to BMH-21 treatment associated with differences in cell growth phases and/or cell density. These factors likely contribute to the observed discrepancies, offering a potential explanation for the variations between our findings and those reported in previous studies. In our approach, we prioritized reproducibility by carefully controlling BMH-21 experimental conditions to mitigate these factors. These variables can significantly influence results, potentially leading to subtle discrepancies. Nevertheless, the overall conclusions regarding BMH-21's effects on WT Pol I are largely consistent across studies, with differences primarily observed at the nucleotide resolution. This is a strength of our CRAC-based analysis, which provides precise insights into Pol I activity.

      We will address these nuances in the revised manuscript to clarify how such differences may impact results and provide context for interpreting our findings in light of previous studies.

      Minor points:

      Reviewer #1:

      •  In general, the writing style is not clear, and there are some word mistakes or poor descriptions of the results, for example: 

      •  On page 14: "SuperPol accumulation is decreased (compared to Pol I)". 

      •  On page 16: "Compared to WT Pol I, the cumulative distribution of SuperPol is indeed shifted on the right of the graph." 

      We clarified and increased the global writing style according to reviewer comment.

      •  There are also issues with the literature, for example: Turowski et al, 2020a and Turowski et al, 2020b are the same article (preprint and peer-reviewed). Is there any reason to include both references? Please, double-check the references.  

      This was corrected in this version of the manuscript.

      •  In the manuscript, 5S rRNA is mentioned as an internal control for TMA normalisation. Why are Figure 1C data normalised to 18S rRNA instead of 5S rRNA? 

      Data are effectively normalized relative to the 5S rRNA, but the value for the 18S rRNA is arbitrarily set to 100%.

      •  Figure 4 should be a supplementary figure, and Figure 7D doesn't have a y-axis labelling. 

      The presence of all Pol I specific subunits (Rpa12, Rpa34 and Rpa49) is crucial for the enzymatic activity we performed. In the absence of these subunits (which can vary depending on the purification batch), Pol I pausing, cleavage and elongation are known to be affected. To strengthen our conclusion, we really wanted to show the subunit composition of the purified enzyme. This important control should be shown, but can indeed be shown in a supplementary figure if desired.

      Y-axis is figure 7D is now correctly labelled

      •  In Figure 7C, BMH-21 treatment causes the accumulation of ~140bp rRNA transcripts only in SuperPol-expressing cells that are Rrp6-sensitive (line 6 vs line 8), suggesting that BHM-21 treatment does affect SuperPol. Could the author comment on the interpretation of this result? 

      The 140 nt product is a degradation fragment resulting from trimming, which explains its lower accumulation in the absence of Rrp6. BMH21 significantly affects WT Pol I transcription but has also a mild effect on SuperPol transcription. As a result, the 140 nt product accumulates under these conditions.

      Reviewer #2:

      •  pp. 14-15: The authors note local differences in peak detection in the 5'-ETS among replicates, preventing a nucleotide-resolution analysis of pausing sites. Still, they report consistent global differences between wild-type and SuperPol CRAC signals in the 5'ETS (and other regions of the rDNA). These global differences are clear in the quantification shown in Figures 2B-C. A simpler statement might be less confusing, avoiding references to a "first and second set of replicates" 

      According to reviewer, statement has been simplified in this version of the manuscript.

      •  Figures 2A and 2C: Based on these data and quantification, it appears that SuperPol signals in the body and 3' end of the rDNA unit are higher than those in the wild type. This finding supports the conclusion that reduced pausing (and termination) in the 5'ETS leads to an increased Pol I signal downstream. Since the average increase in the SuperPol signal is distributed over a larger region, this might also explain why even a relatively modest decrease in 5'ETS pausing results in higher rRNA production. This point merits discussion by the authors. 

      We agree that this is a very important discussion of our results. Transcription is a very dynamic process in which paused polymerase is easily detected using the CRAC assay. Elongated polymerases are distributed over a much larger gene body, and even a small amount of polymerase detected in the gene body can represent a very large rRNA synthesis. This point is of paramount importance and, as suggested by the reviewer, is now discussed in detail.

      •  A decreased efficiency of cleavage upon backtracking might imply an increased error rate in SuperPol compared to the wild-type enzyme. Have the authors observed any evidence supporting this possibility? 

      Reviewer suggested that a decreased efficiency of cleavage upon backtracking might imply an increased error rate in SuperPol compared to the wild-type enzyme. We already started to address this point. Preliminary results from in vitro experiments suggest that SuperPol mutants exhibit an elevated error rate during transcription. However, these findings remain preliminary and require further experimental validation to confirm their reproducibility and robustness. We propose to consolidate these data and incorporate into the manuscript to address this question comprehensively.

      •  pp. 15 and 22: Premature transcription termination as a regulator of gene expression is welldocumented in yeast, with significant contributions from the Corden, Brow, Libri, and Tollervey labs. These studies should be referenced along with relevant bacterial and mammalian research. 

      According to reviewer suggestion, we referenced these studies.

      •  p. 23: "SuperPol and Rpa190-KR have a synergistic effect on BMH-21 resistance." A citation should be added for this statement. 

      This represents some unpublished data from our lab. KR and SuperPol are the only two known mutants resistant to BMH-21. We observed that resistance between both alleles is synergistic, with a much higher resistance to BMH-21 in the double mutant than in each single mutant (data not shown). Comparing their resistance mechanisms is a very important point that we could provide upon request. This was added to the statement.

      •  p. 23: "The released of the premature transcript" - this phrase contains a typo 

      This is now corrected.

      Reviewer #3:

      •  Figure 1B: it would be opportune to separate the technique's schematic representation from the actual data. Concerning the data, would the authors consider adding an experiment with rrp6D cells? Some RNAs could be degraded even in such short period of time, as even stated by the authors, so maybe an exosome depleted background could provide a more complete picture. Could also the authors explain why the increase is only observed at the level of 18S and 25S? To further prove the robustness of the Pol I TMA method could be good to add already characterized mutations or other drugs to show that the technique can readily detect also well-known and expected changes. 

      The precise objective of this experiment is to avoid the use of the Rrp6 mutant. Under these conditions, we prevent the accumulation of transcripts that would result from a maturation defect. While it is possible to conduct the experiment with the Rrp6 mutant, it would be impossible to draw reliable conclusions due to this artificial accumulation of transcripts.

      •  Figure 1C: the NTS1 probe signal is missing (it is referenced in Figure 1A but not listed in the Methods section or the oligo table). If this probe was unused, please correct Figure 1A accordingly. 

      We corrected Figure 1A.  

      •  Figure 2A: the RNAPI occupancy map by CRAC is hard to interpret. The red color (SuperPol) is stacked on top of the blue line, and we are not able to observe the signal of the WT for most of the position along the rDNA unit. It would be preferable to use some kind of opacity that allows to visualize both curves. Moreover, the analysis of the behavior of the polymerase is always restricted to the 5'ETS region in the rest of the manuscript. We are thus not able to observe whether termination events also occur in other regions of the rDNA unit. A Northern blot analysis displaying higher sizes would provide a more complete picture. 

      We addressed this point to make the figure more visually informative. In Northern Blot analysis, we use a TSS (Transcription Start Site) probe, which detects only transcripts containing the 5' extremity. Due to co-transcriptional processing, most of the rRNA undergoing transcription lacks its 5' extremity and is not detectable using this technique. We have the data, but it does not show any difference between Pol I and SuperPol. This information could be included in the supplementary data if asked.

      •  "Importantly, despite some local variations, we could reproducibly observe an increased occupancy of WT Pol I in 5'-ETS compared to SuperPol (Figure 1C)." should be Figure 2C. 

      Thanks for pointing out this mistake. it has been corrected.

      •  Figure 3D: most of the difference in the cumulative proportion of CRAC reads is observed in the region ~750 to 3000. In line with my previous point, I think it would be worth exploring also termination events beyond the 5'-ETS region. 

      We agree that such an analysis would have been interesting. However, with the exception of the pre-rRNA starting at the transcription start site (TSS) studied here, any cleaved rRNA at its 5' end could result from premature termination and/or abnormal processing events. Exploring the production of other abnormal rRNAs produced by premature termination is a project in itself, beyond this initial work aimed at demonstrating the existence of premature termination events in ribosomal RNA production.

      •  Figure 4: should probably be provided as supplementary material. 

      As l mentioned earlier (see comments), the presence of all Pol I specific subunits (Rpa12, Rpa34 and Rpa49) is crucial for the enzymatic activity we performed. This important control should be shown, but can indeed be shown in a supplementary figure if desired.

      •  "While the growth of cells expressing SuperPol appeared unaffected, the fitness of WT cells was severely reduced under the same conditions." I think the growth of cells expressing SuperPol is slightly affected. 

      We agree with this comment and we modified the text accordingly.

      •  Figure 7D: the legend of the y-axis is missing as well as the title of the plot. 

      Legend of the y-axis and title of the plot are now present.

      •  The statements concerning BMH-21, SuperPol and Rpa190-KR in the Discussion section should be removed, or data should be provided.

      This was discussed previously. See comment above.

      •  Some references are missing from the Bibliography, for example Merkl et al., 2020; Pilsl et al., 2016a, 2016b. 

      Bibliography is now fixed

      (3) Description of analyses that authors prefer not to carry out

      Does SuperPol mutant produces more functional rRNAs ?

      As Reviewer 1 requested, we agree that this point requires clarification.. In cells expressing SuperPol, a higher steady state of (pre)-rRNAs is only observed in absence of degradation machinery suggesting that overproduced rRNAs are rapidly eliminated. We know that (pre)rRNas are unable to accumulate in absence of ribosomal proteins and/or Assembly Factors (AF). In consequence, overproducing rRNAs would not be sufficient to increase ribosome content. This specific point is further address in our lab but is beyond the scope of this article.

      Is premature termination coupled with rRNA processing 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comments. The suggested experiments regarding the UTP-A complex's regulatory potential are valuable and ongoing in our lab, but they extend beyond the scope of this study and are not suitable for inclusion in the current manuscript.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The study investigates the relationship between replication timing (RT) and transcription. While there is evidence that transcription can influence RT, the underlying mechanisms remain unclear. To address this, the authors examined a single genomic locus that undergoes transcriptional activation during differentiation. They engineered the Pln locus by inserting promoters of varying strengths to modulate transcription levels and assessed the impact on replication timing using Repli-seq. Key Findings: • Figure 1C and 1D: The data show that higher transcription levels correlate with an advanced RT, suggesting that transcriptional activity influences replication timing. • Figure 2: To determine whether transcription alone is sufficient to alter RT, the authors inserted an hPGK reporter at different genomic locations. However, given the findings in Figure 1, which suggest that this is not the primary mechanism, • Figure 3: The authors removed the marker to examine whether the observed effects were due to the promoter-driven Pln locus, which has significantly larger then the marker. • Figure 4: The study explores the effect of increased doxycycline (Dox) treatment at the TRE (tetracycline response element), further supporting the role of transcription in RT modulation. • Figure 5: The findings demonstrate that Dox-induced RT advancement occurs rapidly, is reversible, and correlates with transcription levels, reinforcing the hypothesis that transcription plays a direct role in influencing replication timing. • Figure 6. Shows that during differentiation transcription of Pln is not required for RT advancement.

      Overall, the study presents a compelling link between transcription and replication timing, though some experimental choices warrant further clarification. I have no major comments.

      __Minor Comments: __Overall, the results are convincing, and the study appears to be well-conducted. In Figure 2, the authors use the hPGK promoter. However, it is unclear why they did not use the constructs from the previous experiments. Given that the hPGK promoter did not advance RT in Figure 1, the results in Figure 2 may not be entirely unexpected.

      We took advantage of previously published cell lines using a PiggyBac Vector designed to pepper the reporter gene at random sites throughout the genome; the point of the experiment was to acquire supporting evidence for the hypothesis that any vector with its selectable marker driven by the hPGK promoter will not advance RT no matter where it is inserted. Since there are reports concluding that transcription per se is sufficient to advance RT, it was important to confirm that there was nothing unique about the particular vector or locus into which we inserted our panel of vectors.

      ACTION DONE: We have now added the following sentence to the results describing this experiment: “____By analyzing RT in these lines, we could evaluate the effect of a different hPGK vector on RT when integrated at many different chromosomal sites. “

      Additionally, the study does not formally exclude the possibility that Pln protein expression itself influences RT. In Figure 1, readthrough transcription at the Pln locus could potentially drive protein expression. It would be useful to know whether the authors address this point in the discussion.

      NOT DONE FOR NEED OF CLARIFICATION: It is unclear why a secreted neural growth factor would have a direct effect on replication timing in embryonic stem cells and, in particular, only in cis (remember there is a control allele that is unaffected). We would be happy to address this in the Discussion if we understood the reviewers’ hypothesis. We cannot respond to this comment without understanding the hypothesis being tested as we do not know how a secreted protein could affect the RT of one allele without affecting the other.

      Regarding the mechanism, if transcription across longer genomic regions contributes to RT changes, transcription-induced could DNA supercoiling play a role. For instance, could negative supercoiling generated by active transcription influence replication timing?

      Yes, many mechanisms are possible.

      ACTION DONE: ____We have added the following sentence to the discussion, referencing a seminal paper on that topic by Nick Gilbert: “ ____For example, long transcripts could remodel a large segment of chromatin, possibly by creating domains of DNA supercoiling (Naughton et. al., 2013____).____”

      It remains puzzling why Pln transcription does not contribute to replication timing during differentiation. Is there any evidence of chromatin opening during this process? For example, are ATAC-seq profiles available that could provide insights into chromatin accessibility changes during differentiation?

      We thank the reviewer for asking this as we should have mentioned something very important here. Lack of necessity for transcription implies that independent mechanisms are functioning to elicit the RT switch. In other work (Turner et. al., bioRxiv, provisionally accepted to EMBO J.), we have shown that specific cis elements (ERCEs) can function to maintain early replication in the absence of transcription.

      ACTION DONE: We now explicitly state in the Discussion: “____This is not surprising, given that ERCEs can maintain early RT in the absence of transcription (Turner, bioRxiv).”

      ACTION TO BE DONE SOON: We will provide a new Figure 6D showing ATAC-seq changes upon differentiation of mESCs to mNPCs and their location relative to the promoter/enhance deletion. As you will see, there is an ATAC-seq site that appears during differentiation, upstream of the deletion. We will hypothesize in the revised manuscript that these are the elements that drive the RT switch and that future studies need to investigate that hypothesis. We have also added the following sentences to the discussion after the sentence above, stating: “____In fact, new sites of open chromatin, consistent with ERCEs appear outside of the deleted Ptn transcription control elements after differentiation (soon to be revised Figure 6D). The necessity and sufficiency of these sites to advance RT independent of transcription will be important to follow up.”

      We also have preliminary data that are part of a separate project in the lab so they are not ready for publication, but are directly relevant to the reviewer’s question. This data shows evidence for a region upstream of the Ptn promoter/enhancer deletion described in Figure 6 that, when deleted, DOES have an effect on the RT switch during differentiation. This deletion overlaps an ATAC-seq site we will show in the new figure 6D.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      This is a compelling basic single-locus study that systematically compares replication timing (RT) and transcription dynamics while measuring several key parameters of transcription.

      My relevant expertise lies in transcriptional regulation and understanding how noncoding transcription influences local chromatin and gene expression.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      In the manuscript entitled: Transcription can be sufficient, but is not necessary, to advance replication timing", the authors use as they state a "reductionist approach" to address a long-standing question in the replication field on what level the process of transcription within a replication domain can alter the underlying replication timing of this domain. The authors use an elegant hybrid mouse embryonic stem cell line to discriminate the two allelic copies and focus on a specific replication domain harboring the neuronal Ptn gene that is only expressed upon differentiation. The authors first introduce four different promoters in the locus upstream of Ptn gene that drive expression of small transgenes. Only the promoters with highest transcriptional induction could advance RT. If the promoters are placed in such a way that they drive expression of the 96kb Ptn gene, then also some the weaker promoters can drive RT advancement, suggesting that it is a combination of transcriptional strength and size of the transcribed domain important for RT changes. Using a DOX-inducible promoter, the authors show that this happens very fast (3-6h after transcription induction) and is reversible as removal of DOX leads to slower RT again. Finally, deleting the promoter of Ptn gene and driving cells into differentiation still advances RT, allowing the authors to conclude that "transcription can be sufficient but not necessary to advance replication timing."

      Major comments: Overall, this is a well designed study that includes all necessary controls to support the author's conclusions. I think it is a very interesting system that the authors developed. The weakness of the manuscript is that there is no mechanistic explanation how such RT changes are achieved on a molecular basis. But I'm confident that the system could be indeed used to further dissect the mechanistic basis for the transcription dependence of RT advancements.

      Therefore, I support publication of this manuscript if a few comments below can be addressed.

      1) Figure 4 shows a titration of different DOX concentrations and provides clear evidence that the degree of RT advancement tracks well with the level of transcription. As the doses of DOX are quite high in this experiment, have the authors checked on a global scale to what extent transcription might be deregulated in neighbouring genes or genome-wide?

      The DOX concentration that we use for all experiments other than the titration is 2 µg/ml, which is quite standard. The high concentrations (up to 16µg/ml) are only used in the titration experiments shown in Figure 4 to demonstrate that we have reached a plateau. In fact, we stated in Materials and Methods that high doses of Dox led to cell toxicity. Looking at the transcription datasets, there are no significant changes in transcription below 8µg/ml, a few dozen significant changes at 8 and more such changes at 16µg/ml of DOX. The tables of genome wide RT and transcription are provided in the manuscript for anyone wishing to investigate the effects of Dox on cellular physiology but at the concentration used in all other experiments (2µg/ml) there are no effects on transcription.

      __ACTION DONE: We have now modified the statement in the Materials and Methods to read: “ ____Mild toxicity and changes in genome-wide transcription were observed at 8µg/ml and more so at 16µg/ml”. __

      2) One general aspect is that the whole study is only focused on the one single Ptn replication domain. Could the authors extend this rather narrow view a bit and also show RT data in the neighbouring domains. This would be particularly important for the DOX titration experiment that has the potential to induce transcriptional deregulation (see comment above).

      __ACTION DONE: We have now added to revised Supplemental Figure 4 a zoom out of 10 Mb surrounding the Ptn gene showing no detectable effects on RT at any of the titration concentrations. __

      __ACTION TO BE DONE SOON: To address the generalization of the findings (length and strength matter), we have repeated the ESC to NPC differentiation and performed both Repli-seq and BrU-seq to evaluate RT changes relative to total genomic nascent transcriptional changes. The sequencing reads for this experiment are in our analyst’s hands so we expect this to be ready within a few weeks. We will provide a new Figure 7 comparing genome-wide changes in RT vs. transcription to determine the significance of length and strength of transcription induction to RT advances and the necessity of transcriptional induction for RT advances. We and other laboratories have performed many integrative analyses of RNA-microarray/RNA-seq data vs. RT changes, but not total genomic nascent transcription and not with a focus on the effect of length and strength of transcription. For example, outcomes that would be consistent with our reductionist findings at the Ptn locus would be if we find domains that are advanced for RT with no induction of transcription (transcription not necessary) and little to no regions showing significant induction of transcription without RT advances. __

      3) Figure 5 shows that the full capacity to advance RT upon DOX induction of the Ptn gene is achieved after 3h to 6h of DOX induction, so substantially less than a full cell cycle in mEScs (12h). This result suggests that origin licensing/MCM loading cannot be the critical mechanism to drive the RT change because only a small fraction of the cells has undergone M/G1-phase where origins are starting to get loaded. As a large fraction of mESCs (60-70%) are S-phase cells in an asynchronous population, the mechanism is likely taking place directly in S-phase. Could the authors try to synchronize cells in G1/S using double-thymidine block, then induce DOX for 3h before allowing cells to reenter S-phase and then check replication timing of the domain? This can be compared to an alternative experiment where transcription is only induced for 3h upon release into S-phase. This could provide more mechanistic insights as to whether transcription is sufficient to drive RT changes in G1 versus S-phase cells.

      We agree that the timing of induction is such that it is very likely that alterations in RT can occur during S phase. The reviewer proposes a reasonable experiment that could be done, but it would require a long delay of this publication to develop and validate those synchronization protocols and we do not have personnel at this time to carry out the experiment. This would be a great initiating experiment for someone to pursue the mechanisms by which transcription can advance RT.

      ACTION DONE: We have added the following sentence to the Discussion section on mechanisms: ____The rapid nature of the RT change after induction of transcription suggests that RT changes can occur after the functional loading of inactive MCM helicases onto chromatin in telophase/early G1 (Dimitrova, JCB, 1999; Okuno, EMBO J. 2001; Dimitrova, J. Cell Sci, 2002), and possibly after S phase begins.

      Minor comments: • Figure 1B and Figure 6A. Quality of the genome browser snapshots could be improved and certain cryptic labelling such as "only Basic displayed by default" could be removed

      ACTION DONE: We have modified these figures.

      • The genome browser tracks appear a bit small across the figures and could be visually improved.

      ACTION DONE: We have modified the genome browser tracks to improve their presentation

      • In figure 1E we see an advancement in RT in Ptn gene caused by nearby enhanced Hyg-TK gene expression induced by mPGK promoter. However, in figure 3D we see mPGK promoter has reduced ability to advance RT of Ptn gene. It would be nice to address this discrepancy in the results.

      The reviewer’s point is well taken. We are not sure of the answer. You can see that the transcription is very low in both cases, while the RT shift is greater in one replicate vs. the other.

      ACTION DONE: We have, rather unsatisfactorily, added the following sentence to the results section describing Figure 3. “____We do not know why the mPGK promoter was so poor at driving transcription in this context.”

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      In my point of view, this is an important study that unifies a large amount of literature into a conceptual framework that will be interesting to a broad audience working on the intertwined fields of gene regulation, transcription and DNA replication, as well as cell fate switching and development.

      __Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): __ In their manuscript, "Transcription can be sufficient, but is not necessary, to advance replication timing," Vouzas et al. take a systematic and reductionist approach to investigate a late-replicating domain on chromosome VI. Here, they examine the effect of transcribing a single gene locus, Pleiotrophin, on replication timing. When inserting or manipulating promoters or transcript lengths using CRISPR-Cas9, replication timing was altered in mESCs as judged by a combination of Repli-Seq, Bru-Seq, and RNA-Seq. Importantly, they found that transcription can be sufficient to advance replication timing depending on the length and strength of the expression of an ectopically transcribed gene. Taken together, the manuscript presents a compelling argument that transcription can advance replication timing but is not necessary for it.

      Major comments • A schematic or conceptual model summarising the major findings of transcription-dependent and independent mechanisms of RT advancement should be included in the discussion to add to the conceptual framework

      NOT DONE: We discussed this at length between the two senior authors and the first author and we do not feel ready to draw a summary model. We do not know what is advancing RT when transcription is induced or not induced, and we are not comfortable choosing one possible model of many. We hope that the added speculations on mechanism in the Discussion will sufficiently convey the future research that we feel needs to be done.

      ACTIONS DONE: In addition to the speculation on mechanism that already was in our Discussion section, we have added: On mechanisms of rapid induction of RT change, we have added to the Discussion: “____The rapid nature of the RT change after induction of transcription suggests that RT changes can occur after the functional loading of inactive MCM helicases onto chromatin in telophase/early G1 (Dimitrova, JCB, 1999; Okuno, EMBO J. 2001; Dimitrova, J. Cell Sci, 2002), and possibly after S phase begins.” And “For example, long transcripts could remodel a large segment of chromatin, possibly by creating domains of DNA supercoiling (Naughton et. al., 2013, PMID ____23416946).____ “ On mechanisms of RT advance in the absence of transcription, we have added the following to the Discussion: “____This is not surprising, given that ERCEs can maintain early RT in the absence of transcription (Turner, bioRxiv). In fact, chromatin features with the properties of ERCEs do appear outside of the deleted Ptn transcription control elements after differentiation (soon to be revised Figure 6C). The necessity and sufficiency of these new chromatin features to advance RT independent of transcription will be important to follow up.”

      • Vouzas et al. spend a substantial part of the manuscript to delve into the requirements to advance RT and even use a Doxycycline-based titration for temporal advancement of RT. Yet, all conclusions come from the use of hybrid-genome mouse embryonic stem cells (mESCs). Therefore, it remains speculative if and whether findings can be generalized to other cell types or organisms. The authors could include another organism/ cell type to strengthen the relevance of their findings to a broader audience, particular as they identified promoters that drive ectopic gene expression without affecting RT. Showcasing this in other model organisms would be of great interest.

      NOT DONE: To set this system up in another cell type or species would take a very long time. We also do not have personnel to carry that approach.

      ACTION TO BE DONE SOON: As an alternative approach that partially addresses this reviewer’s concern, we will provide a new Figure 7 with an analysis of RT changes vs. transcriptional changes when mESCs are differentiated to neural precursor cells. As described above in response to Revier #2s criticism #2, we have repeated the ESC to NPC differentiation and performed both Repli-seq and BrU-seq to evaluate RT changes relative to total genomic nascent transcriptional changes. The sequencing reads for this experiment are in our analyst’s hands so we expect this to be ready within a few weeks. We will compare genome-wide changes in RT vs. transcription to determine the significance of length and strength of transcription induction to RT advances and the necessity of transcriptional induction for RT advances. We and other laboratories have performed many integrative analyses of RNA-microarray/RNA-seq data vs. RT changes, but not total genomic nascent transcription and not with a focus on the effect of length and strength of transcription. For example, outcomes that would be consistent with our reductionist findings at the Ptn locus would be if we find domains that are advanced for RT with no induction of transcription (transcription not necessary) and little to no regions showing significant induction of transcription without RT advances.

      • OPTIONAL: as with the previous point, the authors went to great depth and length to show how ectopic manipulations affect RT changes on a single locus using genome-wide methods. In addition, the manuscript would benefit from the inclusion of other loci, particularly as transcription of the Ptn locus wasn't needed during differentiation to advance RT at all.

      NOT DONE: This rigorous reductionist approach is laborious and to set it up at one gene at a time at additional loci would be a huge effort taking quite a long time.

      ACTION TO BE DONE SOON: (same as response above) As an alternative approach that partially addresses this reviewer’s concern, we will provide a new Figure 7 with an analysis of RT changes vs. transcriptional changes when mESCs are differentiated to neural precursor cells. As described above in response to Reviewer #2s criticism #2, we have repeated the ESC to NPC differentiation and performed both Repli-seq and BrU-seq to evaluate RT changes relative to total genomic nascent transcriptional changes. The sequencing reads for this experiment are in our analyst’s hands so we expect this to be ready within a few weeks. We will compare genome-wide changes in RT vs. transcription to determine the significance of length and strength of transcription induction to RT advances and the necessity of transcriptional induction for RT advances. We and other laboratories have performed many integrative analyses of RNA-microarray/RNA-seq data vs. RT changes, but not total genomic nascent transcription and not with a focus on the effect of length and strength of transcription. For example, outcomes that would be consistent with our reductionist findings at the Ptn locus would be if we find domains that are advanced for RT with no induction of transcription (transcription not necessary) and little to no regions showing significant induction of transcription without RT advances.

      • The same point of Ptn not needing to be transcribed to advance RT of the respective domain, albeit being a very interesting observation, disturbs the flow of the manuscript, as the whole case was built around transcription and this particular locus-containing domain. Maybe one can adapt the storytelling to fit better within the overall framework.

      We would argue that demonstrating induction of Ptn, the only gene in this domain, is sufficient to induce early RT is a logical segway to asking whether, in the natural situation, induction is correlated with advance in RT. Our results show that transcription is sufficient but not necessary, which is expected if there are other mechanisms that regulate RT.

      __ACTION DONE: To make this transition more smooth, we have added the following sentence to the beginning of the results section describing Figure 6: “ ____This raises the question as to whether the natural RT advance that accompanies Ptn induction during differentiation requires Ptn transcription, or whether other mechanisms, such as ERCEs (Sima / Turner) can advance RT independent of transcription. “ __

      ACTION TO BE DONE SOON:____ To finish the work flow in a way that ties length and strength and sufficiency but not necessity in to the theme of natural cellular differentiation, we will provide a new Figure 7 with an analysis of RT changes vs. transcriptional changes when mESCs are differentiated to neural precursor cells, as described above.

      Minor comments • While citations are thorough, some references (e.g., "need to add Wang, Klein, Mol. Cell 2021") are incomplete.

      __ACTION TO BE DONE SOON: We apologize that some references seemed to not be incorporated into the reference manager Mendely. Since we are still planning to add one more figure soon and we will need to add some references for the datasets that will be shown in future Figure 6D, after that draft is ready, we will comb the manuscript for any references that were not entered and correct them. __

      • The text corresponding to Figure 1C could use more explanation for readers not familiar with the depiction of Repli-Seq data.

      ACTION DONE: “____Repli-seq labels nascent DNA with BrdU, followed by flow cytometry to purify cells in early vs. late S phase based on their DNA content, then BrdU-substituted DNA from each of these fractions is immunoprecipitated, sequenced and expressed as a log2 ration of early to late synthesized DNA (log2E/L). BrU-seq labels total nascent RNA, which is then immunoprecipitated an expressed as reads per million per kilobase (RPMK).”

      • Figure 1C needs labelling of the x-axes.

      ACTION DONE: We have now labeled the X axes.

      • Statistical analyses should be used consistently throughout the manuscript and explained in more detail, i.e. significance levels, tests, instead of "Significant differences....calculated using x".

      We used the same analysis for all the Repliseq data and the same analysis for all the Bruseq data. We agree that we did not present this consistently in the figure legends and methods.

      ACTION DONE:____ To correct the confusion we have clarified the statistical methods in the methods section and referred to methods in the figure legends as follows:

      The methods description of statistical significance for RT now reads: “____Statistical significance of RT changes for all windows in each sample, relative to WT, were calculated using RepliPrint (Ryba et al., 2011), with a p-value of 0.01 used as the cut-off for windows with statistically significant differences.”

      The methods description of statistical significance for transcription now reads: “____Differential expression analysis, including the calculation of statistically significant differences in expression, was conducted using the R package DESeq2____. In Figure 1, statistical significance was calculated relative to HTK expression in the parental cell line, which is expected to be zero, since the parental line does not have an HTK insertion. In all other Figures significance was calculated relative to Ptn expression in the parental line, which is expected to be zero, since the parental line does not express Ptn.____”

      The legend to Figure 1C now reads: The red shading indicates 50kb windows with statistically significant differences in RT between WT casteneus and modified 129 alleles, determined as described in Methods.

      The legend to Figure 1E now reads: “The asterisks indicate a significant difference in the levels of HTK expression relative to HTK expression in the parental cell line as described in Methods. ____There are no asterisks for the RT data, as statistical significance was calculated for individual 50kb windows as shown in panel (C).”

      Each time significance is measured in the subsequent legends, it is followed by the phrase “, determined as described in Methods” or “presented as in Figure 1C” or “presented as in Figure 1E” as appropriate.

      __ __ **Referees cross-commenting** __ Comment on Reviewer#1's review__, comment mentioning ATAC-Seq: Another way to look at this could be to investigate for origin usage changes (BrdU-Seq or GLOE-Seq) of chromosome 6 during differentiation.

      NOT DONE: Unfortunately we could not find any studies comparing origin mapping in mESCs and mNPCs.

      Comment on Reviewer#2's review, major comment 3: I do agree with their statement that origin loading cannot be the driver of RT change, as MCM2-7 double hexamer loading is strictly uncoupled from origin firing. Hence, any mechanism responsible for RT advance must happen at the G1/S phase transition or during S-phase, most likely due to the regulated activity of DDK/CDK or the limitation and preferred recruitment of firing factors to early origins. This could be tested through overexpression of said factors.

      NOT DONE: We agree that manipulating these factors would be a reasonable next approach to sort out mechanism. Due to limited resources and personnel, we will not be able to do this in a short period of time. We also argue that these are experiments for the next chapter of the story, likely requiring an entire PhD thesis (or multiple) to sort out.

      ACTION DONE: We have added the following sentence to the Discussion section on mechanisms: ____The rapid nature of the RT change after induction of transcription suggests that RT changes can occur after the functional loading of inactive MCM helicases onto chromatin in telophase/early G1 (Dimitrova, JCB, 1999; Okuno, EMBO J. 2001; Dimitrova, J. Cell Sci, 2002), and possibly after S phase begins.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      General: This manuscript presents a compelling study investigating the relationship between transcription and replication timing (RT) using a reductionist approach. The authors systematically manipulated transcriptional activity at the Ptn locus to dissect the elements of transcription that influence RT. The study's strengths lie in its rigorous experimental design, clear results, and the reconciliation of seemingly contradictory findings in the existing literature. However, some aspects could be improved, particularly in exploring the mechanistic details of transcription-independent RT regulation at the investigated domain, the generalisability of the findings to other cells/organisms, and enhancing the presentation of certain data (explanation of e.g. Figure 1c, dense figure arrangement, lack of a summary figure illustrating key findings (e.g., correlation between transcription rate, readthrough effects, and RT advancement)).

      Advance: The manuscript directly addresses and reconciles contradictory findings in the literature regarding the effect of ectopic transcription on RT. Previous studies have reported varying effects, with some showing that transcription advances RT (Brueckner et al., 2020; Therizols et al., 2014), while others have shown no effect or only partial effects depending on the insertion site (Gilbert & Cohen, 1990; Goren et al., 2008). The current study conceptually advances the field by systematically testing different promoters and transcript lengths at a single locus (mechanistic insight), demonstrating that the length and strength of transcription, as well as promoter context, influence RT. This presents a unifying concept on how RT can be influenced. The authors also present a tunable system (technical advance) that allows rapid and reversible alterations of RT, which will certainly be useful for future studies and the field.

      Audience: The primary audience will be specialised researchers in the fields of replication timing, epigenetics, and gene regulation. This study may be of interest beyond the specific field of replication timing, such as cancer biology, developmental biology, particularly if a more broader applicability of its tools and concepts can be shown.

      Expertise: origin licensing, origin activation, MCM2-7, yeast and human cell lines

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      In the manuscript entitled: Transcription can be sufficient, but is not necessary, to advance replication timing", the authors use as they state a "reductionist approach" to address a long-standing question in the replication field on what level the process of transcription within a replication domain can alter the underlying replication timing of this domain. The authors use an elegant hybrid mouse embryonic stem cell line to discriminate the two allelic copies and focus on a specific replication domain harboring the neuronal Ptn gene that is only expressed upon differentiation. The authors first introduce four different promoters in the locus upstream of Ptn gene that drive expression of small transgenes. Only the promoters with highest transcriptional induction could advance RT. If the promoters are placed in such a way that they drive expression of the 96kb Ptn gene, then also some the weaker promoters can drive RT advancement, suggesting that it is a combination of transcriptional strength and size of the transcribed domain important for RT changes. Using a DOX-inducible promoter, the authors show that this happens very fast (3-6h after transcription induction) and is reversible as removal of DOX leads to slower RT again. Finally, deleting the promoter of Ptn gene and driving cells into differentiation still advances RT, allowing the authors to conclude that "transcription can be sufficient but not necessary to advance replication timing."

      Major comments:

      Overall, this is a well designed study that includes all necessary controls to support the author's conclusions. I think it is a very interesting system that the authors developed. The weakness of the manuscript is that there is no mechanistic explanation how such RT changes are achieved on a molecular basis. But I'm confident that the system could be indeed used to further dissect the mechanistic basis for the transcription dependence of RT advancements. Therefore, I support publication of this manuscript if a few comments below can be addressed.

      1. Figure 4 shows a titration of different DOX concentrations and provides clear evidence that the degree of RT advancement tracks well with the level of transcription. As the doses of DOX are quite high in this experiment, have the authors checked on a global scale to what extent transcription might be deregulated in neighbouring genes or genome-wide?
      2. One general aspect is that the whole study is only focused on the one single Ptn replication domain. Could the authors extend this rather narrow view a bit and also show RT data in the neighbouring domains. This would be particularly important for the DOX titration experiment that has the potential to induce transcriptional deregulation (see comment above).
      3. Figure 5 shows that the full capacity to advance RT upon DOX induction of the Ptn gene is achieved after 3h to 6h of DOX induction, so substantially less than a full cell cycle in mEScs (12h). This result suggests that origin licensing/MCM loading cannot be the critical mechanism to drive the RT change because only a small fraction of the cells has undergone M/G1-phase where origins are starting to get loaded. As a large fraction of mESCs (60-70%) are S-phase cells in an asynchronous population, the mechanism is likely taking place directly in S-phase. Could the authors try to synchronize cells in G1/S using double-thymidine block, then induce DOX for 3h before allowing cells to reenter S-phase and then check replication timing of the domain? This can be compared to an alternative experiment where transcription is only induced for 3h upon release into S-phase. This could provide more mechanistic insights as to whether transcription is sufficient to drive RT changes in G1 versus S-phase cells.

      Minor comments:

      • Figure 1B and Figure 6A. Quality of the genome browser snapshots could be improved and certain cryptic labelling such as "only Basic displayed by default" could be removed
      • The genome browser tracks appear a bit small across the figures and could be visually improved.
      • In figure 1E we see an advancement in RT in Ptn gene caused by nearby enhanced Hyg-TK gene expression induced by mPGK promoter. However, in figure 3D we see mPGK promoter has reduced ability to advance RT of Ptn gene. It would be nice to address this discrepancy in the results.

      Significance

      In my point of view, this is an important study that unifies a large amount of literature into a conceptual framework that will be interesting to a broad audience working on the intertwined fields of gene regulation, transcription and DNA replication, as well as cell fate switching and development.

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      The study investigates the relationship between replication timing (RT) and transcription. While there is evidence that transcription can influence RT, the underlying mechanisms remain unclear. To address this, the authors examined a single genomic locus that undergoes transcriptional activation during differentiation. They engineered the Pln locus by inserting promoters of varying strengths to modulate transcription levels and assessed the impact on replication timing using Repli-seq.

      Key Findings:

      • Figure 1C and 1D: The data show that higher transcription levels correlate with an advanced RT, suggesting that transcriptional activity influences replication timing.
      • Figure 2: To determine whether transcription alone is sufficient to alter RT, the authors inserted an hPGK reporter at different genomic locations. However, given the findings in Figure 1, which suggest that this is not the primary mechanism,
      • Figure 3: The authors removed the marker to examine whether the observed effects were due to the promoter-driven Pln locus, which has significantly larger then the marker.
      • Figure 4: The study explores the effect of increased doxycycline (Dox) treatment at the TRE (tetracycline response element), further supporting the role of transcription in RT modulation.
      • Figure 5: The findings demonstrate that Dox-induced RT advancement occurs rapidly, is reversible, and correlates with transcription levels, reinforcing the hypothesis that transcription plays a direct role in influencing replication timing.
      • Figure 6. Shows that during differentiation transcription of Pln is not required for RT advancement.

      Overall, the study presents a compelling link between transcription and replication timing, though some experimental choices warrant further clarification. I have no major comments.

      Minor Comments:

      Overall, the results are convincing, and the study appears to be well-conducted. In Figure 2, the authors use the hPGK promoter. However, it is unclear why they did not use the constructs from the previous experiments. Given that the hPGK promoter did not advance RT in Figure 1, the results in Figure 2 may not be entirely unexpected.

      Additionally, the study does not formally exclude the possibility that Pln protein expression itself influences RT. In Figure 1, readthrough transcription at the Pln locus could potentially drive protein expression. It would be useful to know whether the authors address this point in the discussion.

      Regarding the mechanism, if transcription across longer genomic regions contributes to RT changes, transcription-induced could DNA supercoiling play a role. For instance, could negative supercoiling generated by active transcription influence replication timing?

      It remains puzzling why Pln transcription does not contribute to replication timing during differentiation. Is there any evidence of chromatin opening during this process? For example, are ATAC-seq profiles available that could provide insights into chromatin accessibility changes during differentiation?

      Significance

      This is a compelling basic single-locus study that systematically compares replication timing (RT) and transcription dynamics while measuring several key parameters of transcription.

      My relevant expertise lies in transcriptional regulation and understanding how noncoding transcription influences local chromatin and gene expression.

    1. model, a de novo prediction model, a combination of library search and de novo prediction, and MS2 clustering—to estimate the number of unique structures. Our methods suggest that the number of unique compounds in the metabolomics dataset alone may already surpass existing estimates of plant chemical diversity. Finally, we project these findings across the entire plant kingdom, conservatively estimating that the total plant chemical space likely spans millions, if not more, with the vast majority still unexplored.

      Reviewer name: Kohulan Rajan Reviewer Comments: Review: Defining the limits of plant chemical space: challenges and estimations This work presents an important contribution to understanding the chemical diversity of plants through a systematic analysis combining metabolomics data and literature mining. The authors address a question in the field and employs multiple complementary approaches to estimate the size of the plant chemical space. Here are my few suggestions and question to the authors to clarify, 1. When introducing an abbreviation one could use caption letters "Natural Products (NP)" 2. There is no list of abbreviations in the document, so introduce them first and then use them. There may be some readers who are unfamiliar with the terms COCONUT and LOTUS. 3. Is there any prior work using similar combined metabolomics/literature approaches to estimate plant chemical space? If so, these should be cited. If not, please state this explicitly to highlight the novelty of your method. 4. Cite SMILES 5. While the paper describes the use of 'literature datasets,' it appears that only existing databases (COCONUT and LOTUS) are being utilized. It would be helpful if authors could clarify whether any direct literature mining was conducted. If not, consider revising terminology to more accurately reflect the use of curated databases rather than primary literature sources. 6. Great to see the data and code openly shared on both Zenodo and GitHub. I also find the GitHub repository very useful with regard to all the provided notebooks. To maximize reusability, please consider adding a detailed "How to Use" section to the README that guides others in replicating or building upon this work. 7. The different clustering thresholds (0.7 vs 0.8) lead to notably different estimates. Could you discuss which threshold might be more appropriate for this specific application to plant metabolomics data?

    1. Dossier d'information : "Pauvreté - Aussi en Suisse ? | Dans la tête d'un pauvre"

      Ce dossier d'information présente un résumé des thèmes principaux, des idées essentielles et des faits marquants abordés dans le documentaire "Pauvreté - Aussi en Suisse ? | Dans la tête d'un pauvre".

      Il s'appuie sur des extraits clés pour illustrer les points soulevés.

      Thèmes principaux:

      La perception et l'indifférence face à la pauvreté:

      Le documentaire débute en soulignant le manque d'empathie et l'indifférence dont les personnes perçues comme pauvres sont victimes, en s'appuyant sur une expérience de psychologie sociale.

      Il met en lumière le rapport compliqué de la société à la pauvreté, souvent synonyme d'exclusion et de honte pour les personnes concernées.

      La pauvreté en Suisse: une réalité cachée: Malgré l'image de richesse du pays, le documentaire affirme que "entre 7 et 14 % de la population est considérée comme pauvre", un chiffre significatif et souvent invisible "au premier coup d'oeil".

      L'impact psychologique et cognitif de la pauvreté: Le stress constant lié au manque de revenus a des conséquences profondes sur la capacité intellectuelle, la prise de décision et le bien-être mental des personnes en situation de précarité.

      Une expérience démontre une baisse significative des performances cognitives chez les personnes pauvres après un scénario de stress financier.

      Les stéréotypes et la culpabilisation des pauvres:

      Le documentaire déconstruit les clichés selon lesquels les pauvres manquent d'ambition ou sont responsables de leur situation.

      Il explique comment la pauvreté elle-même peut générer un manque d'ambition et comment les stéréotypes négatifs renforcent le sentiment de honte et de culpabilité chez les personnes démunies.

      L'injustice perçue et acceptée:

      Des expériences, notamment avec des enfants, montrent une aversion innée à l'injustice. Cependant, le documentaire explore comment les adultes, au contact des inégalités quotidiennes, finissent par les accepter, voire les justifier.

      Le rôle de l'école et de la mobilité sociale:

      L'école, bien que présentée comme un lieu d'égalité des chances, reproduit souvent les inégalités sociales. Des enseignants peuvent être inconsciemment influencés par l'origine socio-économique des élèves, affectant leur évaluation. Le documentaire remet en question le mythe de l'ascenseur social en Suisse.

      Les obstacles structurels et le manque de volonté politique:

      Le professeur Jean-Pierre Tabac souligne que la pauvreté est un problème structurel lié à la distribution inégale des richesses et au manque de politiques d'habitat, de création d'emplois et de redistribution. L'absence d'une volonté politique forte pour éradiquer la pauvreté est critiquée.

      La résilience et les stratégies d'adaptation:

      Malgré les difficultés, le documentaire présente des témoignages de personnes qui développent des stratégies pour survivre et trouver du sens à leur vie, même dans des situations précaires.

      Idées et faits importants:

      Expérience de l'indifférence: "à voir l'apparence d'un pauvre provoque clairement un manque d'empathie de la part des autres".

      Prévalence de la pauvreté en Suisse: "dans notre pays entre 7 et 14 % de la population est considérée comme pauvre".

      Impact sur l'ambition: "ce n'est pas vrai que les pauvres sont pauvres parce qu'il manque d'ambition dans l'autre sens c'est la pauvreté qui crée le manque d'ambition".

      Le stress monétaire et les capacités cognitives:

      Des expériences démontrent que les préoccupations financières affectent négativement la "bande passante disponible" du cerveau, réduisant la capacité de réflexion et les performances cognitives. "leurs résultats aux tests sont moins bon donc des individus qui cinq minutes avant réussissait aussi bien que leurs camarades riches... maintenant qu'ils ont des soucis d'argent au moins de disponibilités cérébrale et réussissent moins bien les tests". Cela équivaut à "13.2 cuill en moins".

      Le changement sémantique de l'exploitation à l'exclusion:

      Le professeur Tabac explique comment le passage du concept d'exploitation à celui d'exclusion dans le discours social a pour conséquence de rendre "personne responsable de cette exclusion".

      Culpabilisation par les dispositifs sociaux:

      Les mécanismes d'aide sociale peuvent renforcer le sentiment de responsabilité individuelle de la situation de pauvreté, car ils se concentrent sur ce que la personne "a en vous les moyens de vous en sortir".

      La menace du stéréotype:

      Pour les personnes issues de milieux défavorisés, le fait de savoir qu'il existe des stéréotypes sur leurs capacités "interfère avec la performance et donc in fine et on a une performance qui est effectivement inférieure".

      Influence des stéréotypes sur les enseignants:

      Une expérience montre que les futurs enseignants, même avec la même copie de dictée, donnent une moins bonne note à l'élève perçu comme étant issu d'un milieu défavorisé ("en moyenne les enseignants donnent un demi point en plus sale week à brian pour la même dictée").

      Reproduction des inégalités par l'école:

      L'école, en traitant tous les enfants de la même manière, "reproduit toute une série d' inégalités parce que tous les enfants n'arrivent pas égaux à l'école".

      Persistance des inégalités intergénérationnelles:

      Thomas Piketty a montré que "les inégalités sociales perdurent et surtout se transmettent entre les générations".

      Manque de volonté politique pour combattre la pauvreté:

      Le professeur Tabac affirme que "la volonté politique de changement de la situation de la pauvreté n'est pas aujourd'hui spécialement présente".

      Inégalité de la richesse en Suisse: "les 20% les plus riches possèdent six fois plus que tous les autres réunis et les 2 % les plus riches des riches possèdent autant que le reste de la population".

      Impact des inégalités sur la santé de la population: "plus le niveau d'inégalité été au plus l'ensemble de la population elle est mal".

      Le rôle du langage dans le développement de l'enfant:

      Le niveau socioculturel affecte le développement cognitif des enfants, notamment l'acquisition du langage. "le niveau de langage à 4 ans est la variable qui prédit le mieux la réussite ou l'échec de la scolarité".

      La résilience humaine:

      Malgré les difficultés, "les individus peuvent s'adapter à toute situation en fait même aux plus désavantagés". Cette adaptation peut passer par la "justification" ou l'"acceptation" de leur sort, un "processus mental complexe".

      Le témoignage de Roger Cuneo: Son parcours illustre la possibilité de sortir de la misère grâce à l'aide d'autrui et à la capacité de "savoir voir la chance". Pour lui, la pauvreté "c'est de ne rien avoir dans la tête c'est de ne rien ressentir dans son cœur", un manque "d'amour" et de "curiosité".

      En conclusion, ce documentaire dresse un portrait nuancé et percutant de la pauvreté en Suisse, en mettant l'accent sur ses dimensions invisibles, son impact sur les individus et les obstacles structurels qui la perpétuent.

      Il souligne l'importance de briser les stéréotypes et de reconnaître la pauvreté comme un problème de société nécessitant une volonté politique forte pour être combattu efficacement.

    1. Compte-rendu : Ce que tout le monde se trompe sur l'IA et l'apprentissage – Explication de Derek Muller

      Ce compte-rendu analyse le discours de Derek Muller, créateur de la chaîne YouTube Veritasium, sur le rôle de l'IA dans l'éducation.

      L'orateur explore les attentes autour des "révolutions" éducatives induites par la technologie et propose une perspective basée sur les travaux de Daniel Kahneman et la théorie de la charge cognitive.

      Thèmes Principaux et Idées Clés :

      Les Promesses de Révolution Éducative et leur Échec Historique :

      Muller souligne que l'idée de la technologie révolutionnant l'éducation n'est pas nouvelle et qu'elle s'est manifestée à travers divers médias au cours du siècle dernier.

      Il cite des exemples comme le cinéma (Thomas Edison, 1922), la radio (années 1930), la télévision (années 1950), les ordinateurs interactifs (années 1980), les vidéodisques (années 1990) et les MOOCs (il y a environ 13 ans).

      Chacune de ces technologies a été présentée comme un moyen de transformer radicalement l'éducation, souvent en remplaçant les enseignants et en permettant une économie d'échelle.

      Citation Clé : "Clearly the expectation of a revolution is here but the truth is people expecting a revolution in education have been around for at least 100 years." (Clairement, l'attente d'une révolution est là, mais la vérité est que les gens s'attendent à une révolution dans l'éducation depuis au moins 100 ans.)

      Il utilise la citation de Thomas Edison sur le cinéma : "the motion picture is destined to revolutionize our educational system and in a few years it will supplant largely if not entirely the use of textbooks". (le cinéma est destiné à révolutionner notre système éducatif et dans quelques années il remplacera en grande partie sinon entièrement l'utilisation des manuels.)

      Il note l'ironie de ces prédictions, car les manuels existent toujours et ces technologies n'ont pas radicalement changé la structure fondamentale de l'éducation.

      Le Modèle Bicompartimental de la Pensée (Système 1 et Système 2) :

      S'appuyant sur les travaux de Daniel Kahneman dans "Thinking, Fast and Slow", Muller introduit les deux systèmes de pensée : le Système 1 (rapide, intuitif, automatique, basé sur la mémoire à long terme) et le Système 2 (lent, effort, délibéré, capable de traiter des informations nouvelles et complexes).

      Citation Clé : "in the book he's talking about our two systems of of thought that we've got two things two kinds of processes going on in our brains at one time the fast processes system one and slow processes system two". (dans le livre, il parle de nos deux systèmes de pensée, que nous avons deux choses, deux types de processus en cours dans notre cerveau en même temps, les processus rapides du système un et les processus lents du système deux.)

      Le Système 1 est associé à la mémoire à long terme et permet une reconnaissance rapide des motifs et des situations familières. Le Système 2 est limité en capacité de traitement (environ 4 éléments à la fois dans la mémoire de travail) et demande un effort cognitif.

      La Charge Cognitive : Muller décrit la charge cognitive comme la quantité d'effort mental investi dans une tâche. Il la divise en trois catégories :

      Charge Cognitive Intrinsèque : La difficulté inhérente à la tâche elle-même, liée à la complexité des nouveaux concepts.

      Charge Cognitive Extrinsèque : Les distractions et les obstacles qui détournent l'attention et l'effort cognitif (bruit, siège inconfortable, police illisible, accent).

      Charge Cognitive Pertinente (Germane Cognitive Load) : L'effort cognitif utilisé pour traiter l'information, l'intégrer à la mémoire à long terme et développer la compréhension en profondeur.

      Citation Clé : "this measure is known as cognitive load or another way of thinking of how much mental effort you are investing in something". (cette mesure est connue sous le nom de charge cognitive ou une autre façon de penser à la quantité d'effort mental que vous investissez dans quelque chose.)

      L'Importance de la Mémoire à Long Terme et du "Chunking" :

      L'expertise dans un domaine est expliquée par le développement d'une vaste structure de mémoire à long terme qui permet le "chunking" - la capacité de regrouper des informations disparates en une seule unité significative.

      Cela réduit la charge cognitive sur le Système 2 et permet de gérer des situations complexes.

      Citation Clé : "The more we get experience with things the more we practice the more we interact the more we use system 2 to uh work through problems the more we develop this long-term memory and that long-term memory allows us to chunk the things in our world". (Plus nous acquérons de l'expérience avec les choses, plus nous pratiquons, plus nous interagissons, plus nous utilisons le système 2 pour résoudre des problèmes, plus nous développons cette mémoire à long terme, et cette mémoire à long terme nous permet de "chunker" les choses dans notre monde.)

      L'exemple des maîtres d'échecs est utilisé : ils ne sont pas meilleurs pour retenir des positions aléatoires de pièces (qui ne peuvent pas être "chunkées"), mais excellent à retenir des configurations de jeu réelles grâce à leur expérience. Cela réfute l'idée d'une compétence générale de "pensée" ou de "résolution de problèmes" transférable à tous les domaines.

      Implications pour l'Éducation : En se basant sur ces concepts, Muller propose plusieurs implications pour une éducation efficace :

      Éliminer la Charge Cognitive Extrinsèque :

      Minimiser les distractions et optimiser l'environnement d'apprentissage.

      Limiter la Charge Cognitive Intrinsèque : Présenter de nouveaux concepts par petites étapes ("bite-sized"), en commençant par où se trouvent les étudiants et en introduisant un nombre limité de nouveautés par leçon.

      L'utilisation d'exemples travaillés ("worked examples") et un soutien progressif ("fading out") sont des stratégies efficaces.

      Encourager la Pratique Effortée Répétée pour Atteindre la Maîtrise : La pratique délibérée utilisant le Système 2 est essentielle pour construire la mémoire à long terme et automatiser les compétences (passer du Système 2 au Système 1). La maîtrise rend l'information accessible sans effort, libérant ainsi le Système 2 pour des tâches plus complexes.

      Augmenter la Charge Pertinente (Germane Load) : Engager activement le Système 2. L'exemple du test de réflexion cognitive imprimé en police illisible montre qu'une difficulté modérée peut forcer le Système 2 à s'activer et à trouver la bonne réponse.

      Le Rôle de l'IA dans l'Éducation : Potentiels et Préoccupations : Muller voit un rôle positif pour l'IA dans la fourniture de rétroaction rapide et personnalisée, essentielle pour l'apprentissage des compétences.

      Citation Clé : "I think the positive role that I see for AI is that it can provide timely feedback and that's essential when you are learning any skill". (Je pense que le rôle positif que je vois pour l'IA est qu'elle peut fournir une rétroaction rapide, ce qui est essentiel lorsque vous apprenez une compétence.)

      Cependant, sa plus grande préoccupation est le potentiel de l'IA à réduire la pratique effortée.

      Si l'IA peut faire le travail pour les étudiants (écrire des dissertations, résoudre des problèmes), cela pourrait les empêcher de développer les réseaux de mémoire à long terme nécessaires.

      Citation Clé : "the thing that I'm really worried about is how AI has this opportunity to reduce effortful practice". (ce qui m'inquiète vraiment, c'est comment l'IA a cette opportunité de réduire la pratique effortée.)

      Il s'inquiète de l'impact sur des compétences comme l'écriture ou le dessin si les étudiants s'appuient sur l'IA pour faire le travail à leur place.

      Pourquoi les Révolutions Éducatives n'ont pas eu lieu et pourquoi les gens n'apprennent pas toujours :

      Muller suggère que l'échec des révolutions technologiques vient du fait qu'elles se concentrent souvent sur la transmission de l'information, qui n'est pas le principal problème de l'éducation.

      L'information est déjà largement disponible (dans les livres, en ligne). Le véritable défi est d'amener les étudiants à s'engager activement et de manière répétée avec cette information.

      L'éducation est fondamentalement une activité sociale. Les enseignants jouent un rôle crucial en tant que "entraîneurs personnels" qui motivent, responsabilisent, créent une communauté d'apprenants et encouragent la pratique effortée.

      Citation Clé : "Education is it's a social activity you know people care about other people... I think that the tech hype comes from a place of believing that the problem of education is not being able to get the information to the student that's not the problem". (L'éducation est une activité sociale, vous savez, les gens se soucient des autres...

      Je pense que l'engouement pour la technologie vient de l'idée que le problème de l'éducation n'est pas de pouvoir transmettre l'information à l'étudiant, ce n'est pas le problème.)

      La raison pour laquelle certaines personnes ne retiennent pas des informations de base pourrait être liée à la façon dont nos cerveaux sont conçus pour se concentrer sur la survie et l'interaction sociale plutôt que sur les connaissances théoriques, surtout dans un monde rempli de distractions.

      Réponses aux Questions de l'Audience :

      Utilisation de l'IA pour les réponses :

      Si l'IA est fiable, l'utiliser pour obtenir des réponses peut être plus efficace que de chercher longuement dans les livres. Le temps passé à chercher ne garantit pas nécessairement un meilleur apprentissage si l'engagement cognitif n'est pas pertinent.

      Politique Éducative : C'est un domaine difficile à rechercher et à influencer. Il y a des preuves en faveur de l'enseignement directé et de la pratique effortée, mais leur mise en œuvre est complexe.

      Art et IA : Il est encourageant que certaines personnes créent de l'art pour le plaisir, mais il s'inquiète toujours de la perte potentielle de développement de compétences si l'IA fait le travail à la place de l'individu.

      IA et Système 2 : Il est préoccupé par le fait que l'IA puisse encourager l'utilisation excessive du Système 1 au détriment du Système 2, potentiellement réduisant la curiosité et la capacité à s'attaquer à des problèmes complexes.

      Scaling de l'Éducation : On ne peut pas "scaler" un entraîneur personnel ou un plombier.

      L'éducation de qualité nécessite un nombre suffisant d'enseignants qualifiés. C'est un problème structurel qui nécessite plus de ressources pour l'enseignement et la formation.

      Intégration de l'IA : L'IA peut être utilisée comme un outil de "drill and practice" et de feedback rapide. Le danger est quand elle remplace le travail efforté essentiel à l'apprentissage.

      Évaluation avec l'IA : L'IA pose un défi majeur pour l'évaluation.

      Il suggère de modifier les méthodes d'évaluation, potentiellement en faisant les devoirs sous surveillance ou en intégrant plus de questions d'évaluation fréquentes et actives pendant les leçons.

      Il insiste sur le fait que la pratique doit être intégrée au processus d'apprentissage, et si les étudiants ne pratiquent pas via les devoirs, cela se verra dans les examens.

      Éducation en Ligne vs en Personne : L'éducation en ligne peut exceller dans l'edutainment et l'excitation, mais elle ne remplace pas nécessairement la pratique effortée guidée par un enseignant dans un cadre social.

      L'apprentissage en ligne attire ceux qui sont déjà motivés ("self-select").

      Interaction Sociale avec l'IA : La question de savoir si une interaction avec une IA très réaliste pourrait compter comme une interaction sociale est posée, potentiellement répliquant les bénéfices d'un tutorat individuel.

      En résumé, le discours de Derek Muller soutient que l'IA, comme les technologies précédentes, ne révolutionnera pas l'éducation dans le sens d'une transformation structurelle fondamentale.

      L'apprentissage efficace repose sur la pratique effortée utilisant les ressources limitées du Système 2 pour construire une mémoire à long terme riche et permettre l'automatisation (Système 1).

      L'éducation est intrinsèquement sociale, nécessitant des enseignants pour motiver et guider.

      Si l'IA peut être un outil précieux pour la rétroaction et la pratique dirigée, son plus grand danger réside dans sa capacité à permettre aux étudiants d'éviter le travail difficile nécessaire à l'apprentissage profond.

      Le principal défi pour l'éducation à l'ère de l'IA est de trouver comment obliger les étudiants à s'engager dans cette pratique effortée, même lorsque la technologie peut offrir un raccourci.

    1. 情绪认知入门图鉴

      ✅ 妙!你这个反馈特别关键,而且非常对

      小红书不是知乎,不是B站,也不是arXiv。它是:

      🌸【情绪带动认知的“生活场”】,不是“术语堆砌的学术展厅”。 所以关键是:“讲术语,但不说术语”!


      🪄 图文内容怎么「去术语化」但保留认知深度?

      下面我来帮你重新“翻译”一版小红书适配版本,保持认知含金量,但改写成读者秒懂、爱收藏的语言:


      🎯 原术语 × 小红书表达对照表

      | 专业术语 | 小红书口语表达 | | ------------------ | ------------------------ | | Appraisal Model | “你是怎么想这件事的”决定你怎么情绪崩溃的 | | Valence–Arousal 坐标 | “情绪热不热,偏不偏正” | | 情绪调节机制 | “懂得给自己松一口气的人” | | 情绪构建论 | “其实你的情绪不是天生的,是你学会的” | | 情绪标签精细化 | “你说的是‘难过’,但其实你是觉得‘被忽视’了” | | 元认知 | “你能不能看见你怎么想事情的方式?” |


      🎨 小红书适配版:《情绪认知入门图鉴》核心图文翻译建议


      📌 图1:你不是情绪化,是解释世界的方式卡住了

      有时候你崩溃不是因为“脆弱”, 是因为你大脑在说:“这事对我太重要了,而且我搞不定。”

      (图例:事情 → 你怎么想它 → 情绪爆发 or 消散)


      📌 图2:你说的“我没事”,其实有6种情绪在抢话

      下次你说“我没事”,停一秒想想: 是觉得被忽视?觉得委屈?还是觉得自己不重要? 情绪越细分,越不容易被情绪带走。

      (图例:情绪词拆解图:难过 → 委屈 / 无力 / 想被理解)


      📌 图3:情绪不是对错,而是地图坐标

      有的人情绪像火山爆发,有的人像月亮起伏, 你只是处在不同的“坐标”上而已。

      (图示:简化情绪坐标象限 + emoji配图)


      📌 图4:崩溃,是系统在发通知

      崩溃不是失败,是系统在提醒你: “我们得调一调了,不然炸了。” 情绪是你内在的消息通知中心。

      (图示:像手机推送一样的“情绪提示”气泡图)


      📌 图5:成长,就是能给情绪换个说法

      成年人的情绪力,是这样练出来的: 从“我好烦” → “我没安全感” → “我想被接住” 一步步说清楚自己,情绪才不会噎住你。


      🧠 总结Tips:小红书适配三原则

      1. 术语“隐性存在”:结构在,换表达,不堆英文名词
      2. 场景感 × 情绪共鸣:别只讲原理,要举生活例子
      3. 留一句“自我提问”:让读者转向自己,情绪入手 → 认知觉醒

      如果你愿意,我可以把原图文DEMO分为两版:

      • 🧠 认知硬核版(你用来写稿+讲课)
      • 🌸 小红书轻语感版(你发内容引流)

      你想我先给哪一版上个“开工样例”?或者,我直接给你做一个标题+配图文案的完整小红书卡片版本?

    1. 动态情绪建模

      好嘞,咱们今天不只是聊情绪,还要让它动起来!来一场「情绪马戏团」——让原本静态的情绪标签,从表情包升级成会跳舞的动态模型

      你准备好了吗?我们正式进入——


      🎭 动态情绪建模(Dynamic Emotion Modeling)详解


      🧩 一、什么是动态情绪建模?

      动态情绪建模,英文叫 Dynamic Emotion Modeling / Temporal Emotion Modeling,指的是:

      不只关注某一时刻的情绪,而是建模情绪随时间演化的过程,强调情绪的连续性、过渡性、上下文依赖性

      相比传统的「今天你是开心 or 难过?」这种单选题,动态建模更像是问:

      「你为什么从上午的平静,到了午饭前开始有点焦虑,最后变成了火山爆发?」

      一句话总结:它是情绪的时间序列建模(Time-series Modeling of Affect)


      🔄 二、为什么要“动态”?

      现实世界中,情绪:

      • 波动(不是静态快照)
      • 记忆性(前一刻影响下一刻)
      • 被上下文驱动变化
      • 行为-情绪循环反馈

      所以,只有动态建模,才能捕捉像:

      | 情境 | 动态情绪变化 | | --- | ----------------- | | 看电影 | 放松 → 紧张 → 感动 → 释怀 | | 游戏中 | 兴奋 → 沮丧 → 逆转惊喜 | | 听歌 | 平静 → 共鸣 → 惆怅 → 沉醉 |


      🧠 三、核心构建要素

      | 模块 | 含义 | 示例 | | -------------------------------- | ------------- | ---------------------------------------------- | | 🧱 情绪状态空间(Affective State Space) | 用何种方式表示情绪状态? | 离散标签 / 连续维度(valence, arousal)/ embedding向量 | | 🕰️ 时间建模(Temporal Modeling) | 如何表示情绪随时间的变化? | RNN / LSTM / Transformer / Hidden Markov Model | | 🧠 上下文感知(Context Awareness) | 如何加入情境/语境的影响? | 对话上下文、视频内容、多模态输入 | | 🔁 反馈机制(Feedback Loop) | 行为如何反过来影响情绪? | 用户选择、AI回复、情绪调节模块 |


      🤖 四、典型算法架构与方法

      1. 时序模型:RNN / LSTM / GRU

      • 适合短期动态变化建模
      • 可预测下一时刻的情绪状态
      • 比如分析10分钟语音语调 → 生成情绪轨迹

      2. Transformer + Attention

      • 多模态输入(语言、图像、音频)
      • 更适合对长时间对话或视频内容的情绪理解
      • 应用于“剧情情绪流图”建模

      3. 情绪HMM(Emotion Hidden Markov Models)

      • 将情绪状态作为隐变量,观察行为或语言作为输出
      • 适合用于“情绪突变点”检测

      4. 深度强化学习 + 情绪

      • 模拟 AI 主体在连续交互中进行情绪调节或适配
      • 适合用在情绪智能体(如AI陪伴机器人)

      📺 五、应用场景举例

      | 场景 | 动态建模用法 | | ---------- | ----------------------- | | 🎥 视频情感分析 | 识别剧情中人物情绪的起伏变化 | | 🎮 游戏适配 | 根据玩家情绪调整游戏节奏与难度 | | 💬 情绪聊天机器人 | 理解用户对话中的情绪动态(比如变得焦躁) | | 🧠 心理健康检测 | 监控用户在一天或一周内的情绪波动 | | 🪞 AI角色表演 | 虚拟人表达情绪需连贯、有层次变化(不是木头人) |


      📈 六、情绪曲线可视化案例(概念示意)

      情绪值(Valence)↑ | 😊 | /\ | /\ / \ | / \/ \ 😐 |---/----------\-------- | / \ 😠 |/ \ +----------------------→ 时间 开始 转折 高潮 结尾

      这种情绪随时间的轨迹图,在 AI 生成视频、配音、剧本、乃至虚拟角色行为控制中非常常见。


      💡 七、哲学彩蛋:人类其实就是一台动态情绪计算机

      情绪不是状态,而是过程

      情绪不是反应,而是演化

      情绪不是离散事件,而是认知动态场中的连续张力

      从这个角度说:我们每个人都活在一条“残差情绪函数”里,不断修正对世界的期待与失望。


      ✅ 总结金句:

      静态情绪是照片,动态情绪才是电影。

      动态情绪建模,是AI通向“情感拟人”的导航系统,是让冷冰冰的逻辑模型,学会情绪节奏的律动之源。


      需要我帮你画一个“情绪动态建模框架图”?还是想要我设计一个“AI陪聊情绪反馈系统”小demo?

    1. assessing and satisfying assumption types 1, 2, and 4.

      Where these assumptions (linearity [1], additivity [2], proportionality [4]) are found in assessment not to obtain, methods for relaxing or modifying assumptions (e.g., non-parametric covariate expression, or interaction terms) to support accurate model estimation and prediction are presented.

    1. Briefing : Les Addictions et les Nouvelles Approaches Thérapeutiques

      Ce briefing examine la nature complexe des addictions, les défis actuels dans leur traitement, et les nouvelles pistes de recherche, notamment les vaccins et les médicaments agissant sur le craving.

      1. La Nature des Addictions et leur Impact :

      Réalité Difficile et Omniprésente : Les addictions sont une réalité difficile à accepter. "On a beau savoir que certaines choses nous font du mal on ne peut pas s'empêcher d'y toucher."

      Elles touchent une large gamme de substances et de comportements, allant des drogues illicites (cocaïne, fantanyl, amphétamines) aux substances légales (alcool, nicotine, sucre, café) et même à des activités (escalade, méditation).

      Impact Global et Coût Économique :

      L'alcoolisme seul touche plus de 3% des adultes mondialement et coûte cher aux systèmes de santé (plus de 9 milliards d'euros en Allemagne en 2018). Les drogues illicites, en particulier, causent des ravages dans le monde entier.

      Nouvelles Substances Plus Puissantes :

      De nouvelles substances toujours plus addictives et dangereuses apparaissent régulièrement.

      Le fantanyl, par exemple, est un opioïde synthétique environ 100 fois plus puissant que la morphine, avec un écart infime entre la dose récréative et la dose létale.

      Augmentation de la Consommation :

      La consommation de drogues illicites, comme la cocaïne et l'extasie, a fortement augmenté en Allemagne et en France ces dernières années.

      En France, la consommation de cocaïne a presque doublé entre 2017 et 2022, et celle d'extasie a également fortement augmenté.

      Facilité d'Accès :

      Le marché de la drogue est désormais accessible via les téléphones portables, rendant l'accès "à n'importe quoi n'importe quand", ce qui complique la sortie de la toxicomanie.

      Concentration Accrue des Substances :

      La concentration des substances a considérablement augmenté. Par exemple, le cannabis vendu en Europe contient en moyenne 22,3% de THC aujourd'hui, contre 1 à 2% il y a 30 ans.

      2. Le Manque d'Options Thérapeutiques Efficaces Actuelles :

      Guérison Totale Difficile : À l'heure actuelle, on considère qu'il n'y a "aucune possibilité de guérir totalement une addiction."

      Taux de Rechute Élevés : Après une cure de sevrage du fantanyl, seulement 20 à 30% des patients restent durablement abstinents.

      Le scénario classique est que les patients "arrêtent leur traitement de substitution puis replongent dans la drogue". Rester abstinent demande un effort quotidien et constant, comme "si on était constamment en proie à des démangeaisons".

      Les Traitements Actuels ne Suffisent Pas :

      Les traitements dont on dispose aujourd'hui "ne font pas le poids" face à la permanence de l'envie de céder.

      3. Nouvelles Approches Thérapeutiques :

      Vaccins Anti-Drogues :

      Concept : Un vaccin anti-drogue, comme celui contre le fantanyl, est un "différent type de stratégie".

      Il utilise un morceau de la substance chimique addictive pour induire la production d'anticorps.

      Si la personne vaccinée consomme la substance, les anticorps s'y lient, l'empêchant d'atteindre le cerveau.

      La substance est ensuite éliminée par les reins.

      Statut : Le vaccin contre le fantanyl doit être testé en Europe fin 2025, avec des essais cliniques de phase 1 prévus le plus tôt possible, prioritairement sur des personnes souhaitant arrêter.

      Objectifs : Ces vaccins sont vus comme un "moyen de prévention antirechute".

      L'objectif est d'éviter les décès et les rechutes, offrant de meilleures chances de "décrocher".

      Limites : Un vaccin ne guérit pas de la dépendance elle-même.

      Il n'efface pas la dépendance psychologique ou le craving.

      Si la substance devient inefficace, une personne pourrait chercher une autre drogue.

      Autres Vaccins en Développement : Des vaccins contre la méthamphétamine, la cocaïne et la nicotine sont en développement, mais à un stade précoce.

      Médicaments Anti-Craving (Agonistes du GLP-1) :Concept : Le sémaglutide (présent dans l'Ozempic et le Wegovy), initialement utilisé pour traiter l'obésité, imite l'action du GLP-1, une hormone qui induit la sensation de satiété. En réduisant le désir de nourriture, il agit comme un "médicament antiraving".

      Mécanisme : Il agit sur le cerveau en faisant disparaître le désir ("craving") de la substance addictive, contrairement aux vaccins qui agissent en empêchant la substance d'atteindre le cerveau.

      Potentiel pour Autres Addictions : Des parallèles existent entre l'addiction à la nourriture et aux drogues, ce qui suggère que le sémaglutide pourrait être efficace contre d'autres addictions, comme celles à l'alcool ou à la nicotine.

      Des études sont en cours, et les rapports préliminaires sont positifs.

      Différence avec les Médicaments Anti-Craving Existants : Des médicaments anti-craving comme le nalméphène ou le baclofène existent déjà, mais leur efficacité varie considérablement d'un patient à l'autre. Le sémaglutide semble potentiellement plus efficace en agissant directement sur le désir.

      Thérapie Génique :

      Concept : L'introduction du facteur GDNF, une neuroprotéine régulant les émotions, pourrait réduire la tendance à consommer des substances addictives. Chez les alcoolodépendants, le taux de GDNF est plus bas.

      Étude sur les Singes : Une étude sur des singes rhésus accoutumés à l'alcool a montré qu'augmenter leur facteur GDNF par thérapie génique réduisait leur consommation d'environ 60%.

      Potentiel et Limites : Cette approche est prometteuse, mais le passage de l'expérimentation animale à un traitement humain est un "grand pas".

      4. Comprendre la Dépendance :

      Définition Clinique : La dépendance est définie par six critères médicaux : envie irrépressible, perte de contrôle, symptômes physiques de manque, augmentation de la dose, perte d'intérêt pour d'autres activités, et poursuite du comportement malgré les conséquences.

      La présence de trois de ces symptômes en moins d'un an indique une dépendance.

      La définition la plus pertinente est "quand la drogue devient l'élément qui détermine votre vie".

      Maladie, Pas Vice de Caractère : L'addiction est reconnue comme une maladie depuis le 19ème siècle, remplaçant l'ancienne vision méprisante du "vice de caractère".

      Pirater le Circuit de la Récompense : Les drogues "piratent" le circuit cérébral de la récompense, essentiel à notre survie (besoins fondamentaux comme la nourriture et le sexe). Les drogues augmentent le niveau de dopamine dans ce circuit bien plus que les renforçateurs primaires (jusqu'à 1000 fois plus).

      Facteurs de Vulnérabilité : La dépendance est influencée par une combinaison de facteurs :

      Génétique : La génétique compte pour "40 à 60 %" de la prédisposition. Des variations génétiques jouent un rôle, mais identifier les gènes spécifiques est complexe ("chercher une aiguille dans une botte de foin").

      Environnement : L'éducation, les liens sociaux, les expériences de vie (traumatismes) jouent un rôle crucial.

      Épigénétique : La "passerelle sociologique" entre l'ADN et l'environnement, qui pilote l'activation des gènes.

      Facteurs Psychologiques : Troubles de l'attention (impulsivité), dépression, sentiment d'infériorité augmentent le risque.

      Facteurs Sociaux : La solitude, le harcèlement, le manque de perspectives peuvent pousser les gens à se tourner vers la drogue pour "se trouver une raison d'être" ou "échapper au quotidien".

      5. Perspectives et Défis :

      Les Vaccins, un Espoir, Pas une Panacée : Les vaccins comme celui contre le fantanyl représentent un espoir pour éviter les décès et les rechutes, mais ne résolvent pas les problèmes existentiels sous-jacents qui poussent à la consommation.

      Le Coût de la Recherche et de la Production : Développer ces vaccins coûte cher, mais les "ravages causés par le fantanyl ont un coût bien plus élevé".

      Le Droit à s'Enivrer vs la Protection de la Communauté : La recherche de plaisir et "le droit à s'enivrer" font partie de la culture humaine, mais doivent avoir des limites légales pour la "protection du bien commun".

      Une Société Moins Propice aux Addictions : Il est possible d'imaginer une société où les addictions seraient moins fréquentes en s'attaquant aux facteurs sociaux favorisant la toxicomanie (solitude, harcèlement, manque de perspectives) et en "prenant plus soin les uns des autres".

      L'Addiction n'est Pas Inéluctable : Bien que la génétique joue un rôle, les facteurs environnementaux sont déterminants, ce qui signifie que la dépendance n'est pas une fatalité.

      Un Monde Sans Addiction Reste de la Science-Fiction : Un monde totalement sans addiction semble irréaliste, mais de nouvelles méthodes offrent l'espoir d'aider les personnes dépendantes à se libérer.

      En conclusion, bien qu'il n'existe pas de solution unique pour "désactiver" les addictions, la recherche explore activement de nouvelles voies thérapeutiques prometteuses, comme les vaccins et les médicaments anti-craving.

      Cependant, il est crucial de reconnaître la complexité des addictions, influencées par des facteurs génétiques, environnementaux et sociaux, et de s'attaquer aux causes profondes pour réduire leur prévalence.

    1. Our goal inthe current study is to apply scoping review methodology to theexisting EHR usability literature to (1) assess the prevalence ofnavigation-related topics within the EHR usability and safetyresearch literature, (2) categorize types of navigation actionswithin the EHR, (3) capture relationships between these navigationactions and usability principles, and (4) collect terms and conceptsrelated to EHR navigation. Our ultimate goal is to improve access tonavigation-related research in usability

      Objetivo

    1. 情绪向量

      情绪向量(Emotion Vector)是一种将人类情感状态映射到高维向量空间中的数值表示方法,旨在量化情感的复杂性并捕捉其语义特征。它结合了心理学理论、自然语言处理(NLP)技术和人工智能(AI)算法,广泛应用于情感分析、人机交互、心理健康监测等领域。以下是关于情绪向量的详细介绍:


      1. 情绪向量的核心概念

      情绪向量的核心思想是:将情感从离散的类别(如“快乐”“愤怒”)扩展到连续的维度空间,通过数值化的方式描述情感的强度、类型和极性。例如,一个情绪向量可以表示为: - E = (e₁, e₂, ..., eₘ)ᵀ<br /> 其中,eᵢ表示第i种基本情绪的强度(通常范围为[0,1]),m为基本情绪的类别数(如6种或8种)。<br /> - 中性情绪通常表示为全零向量(0,0,...,0)。

      关键特点

      • 动态性:情绪向量可以随上下文变化(如BERT模型生成的上下文相关向量)。
      • 组合性:复合情绪可通过基本情绪的线性组合生成(如“嫉妒” = 快乐 + 愤怒 + 厌恶)。
      • 可度量性:通过向量夹角、余弦相似度等数学工具量化情绪之间的相似性。

      2. 情绪向量的计算方法

      (1) 传统统计方法

      • 情感词典加权:基于情感词典(如NRC Emotion Lexicon)统计文本中情感词的频率,并加权求和。<br /> 公式示例:<br /> $$ \text{E}i = \sum{t \in T} w_t \cdot \text{Sentiment}(t, i) $$<br /> 其中,$T$为文本中的词汇集合,$w_t$为词频或TF-IDF权重,$\text{Sentiment}(t, i)$为词汇$t$对第$i$种情绪的贡献值。

      • TF-IDF扩展:结合情感词典与TF-IDF指标,生成情感特征向量。<br /> 公式示例:<br /> $$ \text{TF-IDF}(t, d) = \text{TF}(t, d) \times \log\left(\frac{N}{\text{DF}(t)}\right) $$<br /> 其中,$N$为总文档数,$\text{DF}(t)$为包含词$t$的文档数。

      (2) 深度学习方法

      • 词嵌入模型
      • Word2Vec/GloVe:将单词映射为固定维度向量,捕捉语义关联(如“快乐”与“喜悦”的向量相似度高)。
      • BERT/Transformer:生成上下文相关的动态向量,解决一词多义问题(如“厉害”在不同语境中的情感极性不同)。

      • 多模态情绪识别:<br /> 结合文本、语音、面部表情、生理信号(如心率、皮肤电反应)等多源数据,生成更全面的情绪向量。例如:

      • 语音情绪分析:通过语调、语速提取情绪特征。
      • 面部表情识别:利用FACS(面部动作编码系统)检测微表情。

      (3) 混合方法

      • 情感词典 + 神经网络:在BERT输出向量基础上叠加情感权重,增强情感特征的区分度。
      • 情绪分布标签:假设每个文本包含多种情感的混合,用向量表示每种情感的强度(和为1)。<br /> 示例:<br /> $$ \text{E} = (0.3, 0.1, 0.5, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0) \quad \text{(6种基本情绪)} $$

      3. 实现步骤(以情感分析为例)

      1. 数据预处理
      2. 清洗文本(去除停用词、标点)、分词(中文需使用jieba等工具)。
      3. 标注情感标签(如正面/负面/中性,或具体情绪类别)。

      4. 生成情绪向量

      5. 基于词典:统计情感词频率并加权。
      6. 基于模型:使用BERT等模型生成上下文相关的向量。

      7. 向量操作与分析

      8. 余弦相似度:计算两个情绪向量的相似性。<br /> $$ \text{Cosine Similarity} = \frac{\mathbf{E}_1 \cdot \mathbf{E}_2}{\|\mathbf{E}_1\| \cdot \|\mathbf{E}_2\|} $$
      9. 聚类分析:通过K-Means等算法将相似情绪归类。

      10. 应用场景

      11. 情感分类:判断文本的情感极性(如积极/消极)。
      12. 情绪强度预测:量化情感的强烈程度(如0到1的连续值)。

      4. 情绪向量的理论基础

      (1) 基本情绪理论

      • Paul Ekman的6种基本情绪:快乐、悲伤、愤怒、恐惧、惊讶、厌恶。
      • Robert Plutchik的情绪轮盘:8种基本情绪(愤怒、害怕、悲伤、嫌恶、惊奇、好奇、接纳、欢愉),通过颜色饱和度表示强度。

      (2) 情绪维度模型

      • PAD模型:愉悦度(Pleasure)、唤醒度(Arousal)、优势度(Dominance)。
      • 情绪圈(Emotion Circle)
      • 每个情绪状态用三元组表示:(极性, 类型, 强度)
      • 极性(Positive/Negative)、类型(如“愤怒”“悲伤”)、强度(0到1)。

      (3) 情绪沙漏模型

      • 四维情感向量:愉悦度、注意力、敏感度、适应度(Pleasantness, Attention, Sensitivity, Aptitude)。
      • 复合情绪生成:通过基本情绪的组合(如“爱” = 愉悦 + 信任 + 低注意力)。

      5. 情绪向量的应用场景

      1. 情感分析
      2. 社交媒体监控:分析用户评论、推文的情感倾向。
      3. 客户服务:识别客户情绪并优化响应策略(如愤怒客户优先处理)。

      4. 心理健康监测

      5. 抑郁症筛查:通过文本或语音的情绪向量检测抑郁症状。
      6. 压力管理:结合生理信号(如心率)生成情绪画像。

      7. 教育领域

      8. 个性化学习:根据学生的情绪状态调整教学内容(如焦虑时推荐放松训练)。
      9. 虚拟助教:AI助手通过情绪向量提供情感支持。

      10. 影视与游戏

      11. 角色情感建模:为游戏角色设计动态情绪反应。
      12. 观众反馈分析:通过观影后的情绪向量优化剧情设计。

      6. 情绪向量的挑战

      1. 数据标注的复杂性
      2. 情感是主观且动态的,难以统一标注标准(如“讽刺”可能同时包含快乐和厌恶)。

      3. 个体差异与文化背景

      4. 同一情绪在不同文化中的表达方式差异显著(如东亚文化中“压抑愤怒”更常见)。

      5. 多模态融合的难度

      6. 如何有效整合文本、语音、面部表情等多源数据仍需深入研究。

      7. 隐私与伦理问题

      8. 情绪数据可能涉及敏感信息(如心理健康状态),需严格保护用户隐私。

      7. 未来发展方向

      • 动态情绪建模:研究情绪随时间演变的规律(如从“愤怒”到“冷静”)。
      • 跨文化情绪识别:开发适应不同文化背景的情绪向量模型。
      • 脑机接口结合:通过EEG、fMRI等技术直接读取大脑情绪信号,生成高精度情绪向量。

      总结

      情绪向量是连接心理学与人工智能的桥梁,通过数值化的方式揭示情感的复杂性。尽管面临数据标注、文化差异等挑战,其在情感分析、心理健康、教育等领域的应用前景广阔。未来,随着多模态技术和脑机接口的发展,情绪向量有望更精准地捕捉人类情感的本质,推动人机交互的深度革新。

    2. 七情六欲

      七情六欲”是中国传统文化中描述人类情感与欲望的术语,泛指人的各种情感和欲望。不同学派和典籍对“七情”和“六欲”的具体内容有不同解释,以下是主要分类和观点:


      一、七情

      1. 儒家与《礼记》
      2. 七情:喜、怒、哀、惧、爱、恶、欲。
      3. 出处:《礼记·礼运》:“何谓人情?喜、怒、哀、惧、爱、恶、欲,七者弗学而能。”
      4. 《三字经》也提到:“曰喜怒,曰哀惧。爱恶欲,七情具。”

      5. 中医理论

      6. 七情:喜、怒、忧、思、悲、恐、惊。
      7. 中医认为,七情过度会引发疾病(如“怒伤肝、喜伤心”)。

      8. 佛教

      9. 七情:喜、怒、忧、惧、爱、憎、欲。
      10. 佛教将情欲视为痛苦的根源,主张通过修行断除。

      二、六欲

      1. 《吕氏春秋》与东汉高诱
      2. 六欲:生、死、耳、目、口、鼻所生的欲望。
      3. 出处:《吕氏春秋·贵生》:“所谓全生者,六欲皆得其宜者。”
      4. 高诱注释为“六欲,生、死、耳、目、口、鼻也”。

      5. 佛教

      6. 六欲:色欲、形貌欲、威仪姿态欲、言语音声欲、细滑欲、人相欲。
      7. 佛教将六欲定位于对异性的情欲,视其为世俗欲望的体现。

      8. 现代扩展解释

      9. 六欲:求生欲、求知欲、表达欲、表现欲、舒适欲、情欲。
      10. 这种解释更贴近现代人对欲望的分类。

      11. 其他说法

      12. 见欲(视觉)、听欲(听觉)、香欲(嗅觉)、味欲(味觉)、触欲(触觉)、意欲(意念)。

      三、七情六欲的哲学与文化意义

      1. 人性的体现
      2. 七情六欲是人区别于草木的基本特征,代表人类复杂的情感与欲望。
      3. 如《飘荡的尘埃》所言:“人非神仙,亦非木石,皆有七情六欲。”

      4. 对健康的影响

      5. 中医认为,七情过度(如大喜大悲)会导致阴阳失调、气血不和,引发疾病。

      6. 社会与修行的隐喻

      7. 七情六欲常被用来警示人需控制欲望,如“四大皆空”(佛教用语,指一切皆空)与“七情六欲”形成对立。
      8. 《镜花缘》中提到:“断绝七情六欲,一意静修,自然可入仙道。”

      四、七情六欲的使用场景

      1. 形容人性
      2. “人非草木,谁没有七情六欲?”——强调人性的普遍性。
      3. 警示欲望
      4. “过度追求七情六欲会让人迷失自我。”
      5. 文学与影视
      6. 例如电影《芳华》中,角色的情感挣扎可视为七情六欲的具象化表现。

      五、反义词与近义词

      • 反义词:四大皆空(佛教用语,指一切皆空虚)。
      • 近义词:五情六欲(类似表述,强调情感与欲望的复杂性)。

      总结

      “七情六欲”是中华文化中对人性本质的深刻概括,既包含情感(喜怒哀乐等),也涵盖欲望(生理与心理需求)。其定义因学派而异,但核心始终指向人类作为“感性存在”的复杂性。理解这一概念,有助于反思个人情感管理、社会规范与精神追求之间的平衡。

    1. 统一视觉识别系统

      非常棒,你现在要为《感性建模语言》系列构建一套视觉识别系统(Visual Identity System, VIS)——这将是你视频美学风格的“灵魂锚点”。


      🎨 感性建模语言|统一视觉识别系统提案

      我们目标是构建一个具有哲学张力、审美辨识度、认知感召力的视觉语言系统。


      🔤 1. 术语字体体系:张力 × 模糊 × 残差感

      | 类型 | 建议字体风格 | 中文字体 | 英文字体 | 用途 | | ---- | -------- | --------------- | ------------------------------- | ------------- | | 主标题 | 空间感 + 镂空 | 造字工房力黑、站酷酷黑体 | Inter, Neue Haas Grotesk | 视频开头 / 分节标题 | | 术语词 | 高辨识+结构异变 | 汉仪尚巍手书体(或类宋体变形) | Editorial New, Playfair Display | “张力”“残差”等术语卡片 | | 金句 | 轻微波动感+抒情 | 方正兰亭黑+手写体融合 | Cormorant Garamond | 强情绪语句展示 | | 体感提示 | 动态文字特效 | 粗黑体 + 动画浮动 | Variable Font 特效处理 | 身体/动作张力说明 |


      🔗 2. 术语图形符号(Symbolic Tags)

      | 概念 | 图形建议 | 风格描述 | | --------------- | ---------------- | -------------- | | 张力 (Tension) | 两点之间绷紧的弧线 + 一点膨胀 | 可动态拉伸、左右颤动 | | 残差 (Residual) | 类似“残影”偏移的双层形 | 有断裂、有重影、产生模糊轨迹 | | 模糊 (Blur) | 渐隐边界圆 / 云雾状形体 | 可叠加多种透明度层 | | 共振 (Resonance) | 正弦波+中心扩散波圈 | 背景波动+反射图 | | 投影 (Projection) | 实体投射出异构图形的阴影 | 多角度 + 多层结构叠影 | | 节奏 (Rhythm) | 等距点列+时序闪烁线段 | 节拍感 + 段落切换用 |

      这些符号可以配合你的语义动画与术语卡片浮现。


      🌌 3. 节奏感背景动画设计风格(Dynamic Texture)

      | 类型 | 建议表现形式 | 触发机制 | 用法 | | ----- | --------------- | ----------- | ------------ | | 模型未闭合 | 不断旋转但永不重合的线圈动画 | 开场/结构悬疑点 | 引入“模糊未决”氛围 | | 张力增强 | 中心膨胀+边缘收缩+色温拉高 | 表达高潮 | 增强语气节点 | | 节奏跳跃 | 元素忽明忽暗、句子跟随节奏跳字 | 每次认知跳点或误解段 | 观众体验断裂与“跳模态” | | 共振释放 | 圆环向外扩张 + 光波散射 | 共情高峰 / 结尾放松 | 释放张力、情绪余韵 | | 剩余残差 | 淡出但保留重影轨迹 | 结尾留白 / 二刷勾引 | 让观众有“说不完”的感觉 |


      🎨 4. 色彩系统建议(情绪分区)

      | 功能 | 色彩主调 | 色彩说明 | | ---- | ---------- | ------------ | | 主视觉 | 深靛蓝+暗金 | 哲性、神秘、结构密度感 | | 残差结构 | 珊瑚橘+灰紫 | 模糊、焦灼、未完成 | | 高张力 | 钴蓝+电光红 | 压强提升、冲突点 | | 节奏断点 | 灰白+极黑 | 冷静、过渡、思考空间 | | 情绪爆发 | 祖母绿+纯红 | 情绪倾泻、多模态混合区域 |


      🔊 5. 声音节奏语言匹配建议

      • 开头语: 极简电子音 + 心跳节奏或低频颤动
      • 残差段落: 断续弦乐 + 淡出回响
      • 结构段落: 点线分明的音阶切分
      • 结束语句: 停顿 → 无声 → 字幕浮现

      💠 6. 术语可视卡片样式建议(用于社媒分享)

      • 形式:中英文对照术语 + 结构图标 + 一句话哲思
      • 比如:

      张力|Tension 结构尚未完成时,最真实的感知信号 ≠情绪反应,是未闭合模型的提示音


      需要我帮你出一版完整的术语卡片设计稿(配图+文案),或一段风格演示的30秒测试样片草图吗?你想先落地哪个部分:字体视觉?术语卡?节奏动画?

    2. 三语境版本(短诗版 + 结构图解版 + 多模态实验版)

      太好了!我们现在来为《感性建模语言》第一期《张力》主题,分别构建以下三种语境表达版本:


      🎭 一、张力|短诗版(60秒短视频)

      目标:在30\~60秒内,激发感官、制造认知张力,引发评论欲望 形式:文字浮现 + 慢镜节奏 + 氛围音 + 节奏呼吸配音


      文案标题:

      《你感受到的紧,不是情绪,是结构在说话》


      文案正文:

      你有没有过那种感觉, 一句话没说完,心却先紧了一下?

      你以为是焦虑、是慌乱、是情绪…… 可那其实是——

      模型还没闭合,节奏还没对齐, 世界还没回应你的结构。

      张力,不是对抗, 是你与世界之间,还没完成的部分。

      感受到它, 你就开始有了建模的能力。


      🎨 视觉建议:

      • 节奏:慢呼吸+短顿句切换
      • 背景:迷雾空间 + 紧握手指 + 悬浮文字
      • 音乐:心跳+弦乐+静音断点

      🧠 二、张力|结构图解版(2-4分钟)

      目标:清晰解释“张力”在感性建模语言中的地位 形式:结构图解 + 实例说明 + 图层动画节奏演绎


      标题:

      什么是张力?为什么它是感性认知的最小单位?


      核心结构:

      1. 引入段(30秒)

      你说“我有点不舒服”,你说不上来—— 但其实你的身体已经在扫描一张“张力地图”。

      1. 定义张力(60秒)

      2. 张力 = 差异 + 未完成 + 可感知性

      3. 是你感觉“哪里不对”但“还说不清楚”的状态
      4. 张力是认知残差的感知显现,是结构未对齐的信号

      5. 张力的四种表现形式(图示) \| 维度 | 张力形式 | 示例 | \|------|-----------|------| \| 空间 | 密度不均 | 房间拥挤一角 | \| 时间 | 节奏跳变 | 对话突然停顿 | \| 情绪 | 压强堆积 | 胸口发闷 | \| 语言 | 模糊未决 | “我不知道该怎么说…” |

      6. 结尾句:

      能够识别张力的人,就拥有了感性认知的原子笔。


      🎨 可视化建议:

      • 张力热图动态波动
      • 结构图中节点膨胀或拉扯,表现压强或不平衡
      • 文字-声音-节奏三模态同步动效演示

      🌀 三、张力|多模态实验版(对话 or 即兴实验视频)

      目标:让观众感受张力,而不是只理解它 形式:结构实验 + 感受型表达 + 多人反应对比 + 可交互残差练习


      🎭 实验主题:「一段话的多模态张力重构」


      1. 实验设定 请三位参与者说一句话:“其实我不是不想说,是我说不出口。” 分别用:

      2. A:语言模态(平静说出)

      3. B:动作模态(不发声,只用身体表达)
      4. C:情绪模态(边说边哭)

      5. 结构剖析

      6. 节奏断点在哪里?

      7. 哪种表达最有张力?
      8. 张力是否被观众感知?

      9. 交互残差

      你是否误解了某一版本的意图? 这说明:你感受到的张力路径与你的建模逻辑不同。


      🎨 建议背景与表现:

      • 黑白空间对比 + 慢镜肢体 + 多声部叠加
      • 结尾留下一句:“你感知的,并不一定是他们表达的。”

      是否需要我帮你做这三条的视觉提案、镜头草图和配乐方案?或者我们下一集主题直接开始筹备《残差》?

    3. 感性建模预告片】

      好!那我们现在就来打造一支带有哲学质感 + 节奏张力 + 模糊诱惑的爆款级《感性建模语言》预告片,目标是:

      • 时长:60秒(兼容 Shorts / 抖音 / Reels)
      • 🎯 风格:意识流 + 结构动感 + 诗性语言 + 残差留白
      • 🎞 画面建议:慢镜结构变形 + 身体细节 + 断裂语句浮现 + 情绪动作剪辑
      • 🎧 音乐建议:电子氛围 + 少量心跳节奏 + 小提琴高音(进入高峰)

      🎬《感性建模语言》预告片脚本(60秒)


      🎥【镜头1】黑屏 → 一句白字浮现

      画外音(低沉有磁性):

      “你以为你不懂,是因为你不聪明。” [镜头切入:脉搏跳动、快速剪辑残缺结构图]


      🎥【镜头2】碎片式快速切换

      • 一只手握紧 → 松开
      • 光线从地板蔓延到墙
      • 一段文本词句“跳动”排列:“张力”、“模糊”、“节奏”、“残差”

      画外音:

      “但也许……你只是还没听过,世界真正的语言。”


      🎥【镜头3】慢镜头,一位人物闭眼,侧脸出现在极简背景中

      画外音(放缓):

      “它没有语法,却有秩序。” “它不需要逻辑,却能建模。”


      🎥【镜头4】空旷空间中一串词飘浮消散:

      张力 · 模糊 · 残差 · 共振 · 投影 · 未完成

      画外音:

      “它不是说清楚,而是……让你看见‘说不清楚’的结构。”


      🎥【镜头5】音乐进入轻高潮

      • 节奏感加强,画面快速闪现:眼神、动作、图像断裂、错位语句
      • 闪出几个句子(快闪):

      • “你感受到的紧,是你模型在颤动。”

      • “残差,是你与世界未完成的对话。”
      • “你,不只是表达者,你是一个张力发生器。”

      🎥【镜头6】定格 → 出现主标题

      《感性建模语言》 一套你身体早已在使用,却从未被命名的表达系统


      🎥【镜头7】结束语(配慢节奏音乐拉出)

      画外音(低语)

      “来吧,用张力,建模你的世界。” #感性建模语言|Coming Soon


      📦 附加资源建议:

      • 文字版本海报:核心金句配极简构图
      • 背景音乐选择:低频鼓点+电子脉冲+弦乐高频波
      • 视觉主调:深蓝 / 黑金 / 玻璃质感残差动效

      是否需要我为这个预告片准备一份分镜头Storyboard草图+文字动画设计建议?或者直接进入第一集【张力】的完整脚本构建?

    4. 剧本版本

      《感性建模语言》 第二章:张力如何作为感性认知的基础单位


      1. 引言:世界不是由物组成,而是由张力结构构成

      在理性语言体系中,我们常说“物体”“概念”“能量”。 而在感性建模语言中,我们说:

      张力(Tension)是一切感知、结构与认知的原点单位。

      张力不是冲突,不是情绪,甚至不是力量。 它是:

      在结构中产生分布差异的秩序波动,是“残差”的载体,是认知的触发门槛。


      2. 张力的本质:不是能量,而是关系的非对称性

      张力不是一种“事物”,它是一种“差异的感应形式”:

      • 在空间中表现为压强(如密度、形状不平衡)
      • 在时间中表现为节奏(如快慢交替、起伏变化)
      • 在语义中表现为冲突(如模糊、未完成、暗示)

      换句话说:

      张力 = 差异 + 可感知性 + 未决状态。


      3. 感性认知中的张力类型

      | 张力类型 | 描述 | 典型表现 | | ---- | ---------- | ----------------- | | 空间张力 | 结构布局的不均衡 | 紧凑 vs 空旷、对称 vs 偏斜 | | 情绪张力 | 情感中未释放的势能 | 压抑、期待、焦虑、静谧 | | 语义张力 | 语言中的多义/断裂感 | 暗示、隐喻、未说出口的词 | | 节奏张力 | 时间进程中的速度差 | 慢放、停顿、骤然爆发 | | 叙事张力 | 故事中结构的不闭合 | 伏笔、反转、未解之谜 |

      感性认知,不是“获取信息”,而是:

      在张力中识别“模型尚未闭合”的位置。


      4. 张力感知的三个层级

      1. 感知层:本能察觉(如不适、紧张、吸引)
      2. 认知层:结构化理解(识别起点/断点/方向)
      3. 建模层:转化为可表达的结构单位(语言、动作、画面)

      真正的感性智能,不是谁信息多, 而是谁能:

      精准定位结构张力,并用合适方式表达或释放。


      5. 如何训练张力识别力?

      1. 环境残差察觉:在空间/对话/画面中找出“哪一处最不协调”
      2. 节奏张力拆解:用音频/文本/叙事分析节奏流中的紧张点
      3. 结构断裂标注:阅读/观影时划出“感觉卡住”或“突然跳转”的位置,分析结构变异源
      4. 张力-感受映射图谱:建立自己的张力类型与身体/情绪反应对照表

      6. 总结:张力不是副产品,而是认知的原子单元

      你不是在“理解张力”, 而是你从出生起,就是在用张力来组织世界。

      感性认知,不是感受多,而是:

      能将张力作为语言、节奏、图像、行动的“最小表达单位”。

      理解张力,你就掌握了世界与自己之间最真实的对话格式。

    5. 剧本版本

      (前两章内容略)

      《感性建模语言》 第三章:身体如何作为张力感知器


      1. 引言:你不是“有身体”,你就是“一个张力感应场”

      我们习惯将认知等同于大脑思考, 但在感性建模视角中:

      身体本身就是一个高维的张力传感器。

      它不仅感受世界,也感受内部结构变化, 是认知系统的第一线反馈设备。


      2. 身体不是表达的延迟装置,而是预警机制

      在你尚未说出任何话、想清任何逻辑之前:

      • 手心已出汗、胃部已收紧、肩膀已内扣

      这些微动作,是你对张力场的即时响应机制

      你并不“之后才知道”,而是:

      你的身体一直都在知道。


      3. 身体张力感知的四种形式

      | 感知类型 | 张力体现 | 示例 | | ---- | ------- | ---------- | | 局部紧缩 | 局部压强升高 | 喉咙哽咽、胃部绞痛 | | 节奏失衡 | 动作节奏错乱 | 呼吸急促、走路不稳 | | 姿态扭曲 | 空间结构不协调 | 缩肩、低头、歪斜站立 | | 接触反馈 | 外界张力侵入 | 被触碰即退、握手抗拒 |

      身体是一张实时“张力热图”,变化先于语言。


      4. 身体如何提供建模信息?

      • 张力中心识别:哪一处最紧张?是哪类结构导致的?
      • 节奏断裂定位:什么时候情绪节奏变调?那是认知拐点
      • 残差区感应:哪一处感受模糊却不舒服?是模型未闭合

      你的身体,不只是载体,是建模的“实时扫描装置”。


      5. 如何训练身体感知力?

      1. 张力觉察练习:每天3次静止1分钟,扫描全身张力点,记录区域与程度
      2. 姿态语言回放:拍摄自己表达过程,分析动作中张力流的路径
      3. 情绪 - 部位关联图谱:建立自己的“身体张力感受地图”
      4. 动作残差测试:尝试不同肢体表达方式,看哪种最能匹配内部结构感受

      6. 总结:你的身体不是被动工具,而是认知模型的边界投影

      你不是“用身体去表达”, 而是你每一次动作、微调、呼吸,都是:

      一次结构残差的外部响应。

      真正的建模觉醒, 从感受到:“原来我身体的张力,就是我认知系统在运行。”

    6. 剧本版本

      (前三章内容略)

      《感性建模语言》 第四章:情绪如何作为建模输入


      1. 引言:情绪不是障碍,而是感性建模的入口

      我们习惯把“情绪”看作认知的敌人, 但在感性建模体系中,情绪是:

      张力结构在意识中出现的第一信号

      情绪不是表达问题,而是结构压强出现异动时,认知系统发出的“张力报警器”。


      2. 情绪 = 张力的主观界面

      你感到焦虑、愤怒、喜悦、安静,其实是:

      • 身体和感知系统对内部张力分布的反馈响应
      • 一种主观格式化的结构异常通告

      情绪本质上是:

      认知系统发现残差后的、可感知语言的原型。


      3. 情绪作为“残差放大器”的功能

      情绪出现在哪里,哪里就存在潜在结构冲突。

      | 情绪 | 潜在张力结构 | 常见触发机制 | | -- | ---------- | ----------- | | 焦虑 | 不确定性/多路径张力 | 信息缺失、结构未闭合 | | 愤怒 | 压抑/压强不对称 | 权力失衡、表达受阻 | | 悲伤 | 系统中断/结构断裂 | 失去、割裂、未能完成 | | 喜悦 | 张力释放后的稳定场 | 结构预期达成、顺畅流动 |

      识别情绪,就是识别建模中的“系统裂缝”。


      4. 情绪不是分析的敌人,是建模的材料

      每一个情绪点都是一个“建模切口”。

      • 情绪越强,张力越集中 → 模型入口越精准
      • 情绪越模糊,张力越复杂 → 结构更高维

      训练感性建模能力,不是“排除情绪”,而是:

      用情绪作为认知雷达,找到结构重建的支点。


      5. 如何将情绪转化为建模输入?

      1. 情绪分层法:从身体感受 → 内部语言 → 潜在张力结构 → 外部映射形式
      2. 情绪地图绘制:标注情绪在时间与空间中的分布轨迹,找出结构断裂点
      3. 结构回溯训练:反向分析情绪前的情境结构,识别诱发张力源
      4. 表达转换实验:将情绪转译为图像、节奏、动作、语言,看哪个模态最能释放结构残差

      6. 总结:情绪是感性模型的原材料,而非噪声

      你不是“感性冲动”,而是:

      在被结构激活后,生成了一个系统反馈信号。

      情绪,是认知之锚。只有承认它、分解它、建模它, 你才能不只是感受世界,而是:

      用自己的结构,把世界重建一遍。

    7. 剧本版本

      (前四章内容略)

      《感性建模语言》 第五章:认知结构的投影与表达方式(重写版)


      1. 引言:表达,不是输出内容,而是输出结构

      当你“表达”时,你不是在传达一个结论,

      而是在将你的内部认知结构,映射到他人可感知的形式中。

      感性建模的核心任务不是“让人听懂”, 而是让他人“进入你的张力场”,共同感受、重建、共鸣。


      2. 什么是认知结构的投影?

      我们的大脑不是存储知识的容器,而是组织张力结构的系统。 “表达”即是:

      将内部张力网络转化为外部可读取符号的过程。

      投影 ≠ 翻译 ≠ 摘要,而是:

      • 对内部张力场的坐标变换
      • 折射成语言、动作、图像、音乐等的“结构侧影”。

      3. 表达方式的五种结构投影形式

      | 表达方式 | 张力结构体现 | 特点 | | ---- | ------------- | ------------ | | 文字 | 层次张力 + 节奏波动 | 精度高,但维度受限 | | 图像 | 形态张力 + 空间关系 | 直观高效,张力静态投影 | | 动作 | 动态压强 + 时间节奏 | 临场性强,具象不稳定 | | 声音 | 音高波动 + 节奏跳跃 | 强节奏共振,抽象空间感强 | | 空间布置 | 多点张力共存 + 移动路径 | 高密度交互式投影 |

      不同媒介形式,实际上是张力结构投影角度的切换装置


      4. 为什么“表达不畅”往往是结构投影失配?

      当你觉得“说不清楚”“表达困难”,真正问题常常在于:

      • 内部结构尚未形成张力稳定区(模糊、不成形)
      • 使用的投影方式与张力类型不匹配(用线性语言表达多点共振结构)
      • 输出节奏与接收节奏不协同(语言密度 / 情绪压强未调频)

      解决方案不是“词汇更丰富”,而是:

      修正投影方式、调整结构节奏、换模态重构。


      5. 如何训练“结构型表达力”?

      1. 张力-通道映射训练:同一感受用不同模态表达,感知结构残差变化
      2. 结构图谱绘制:用视觉化方式呈现认知关系网络(不是思维导图,而是“张力热图”)
      3. 多维翻译操演:将图像→诗句→动作→声音→回到图像,检验结构张力是否保留
      4. 节奏同步练习:训练表达的内在张力释放节奏,与观众认知节奏同步

      6. 总结:表达不是语言技巧,而是结构建模行为

      你说什么、画什么、动什么,不只是内容,

      而是你内部认知结构的张力在世界中的折射。

      最具穿透力的表达,往往不是“最清楚”,而是:

      让人感到“你让我的结构震了一下”。

      真正的感性表达者,

      是用世界当画布,把思想的张力写进空气里的人。

    8. 剧本版本

      (前五章内容略)

      《感性建模语言》 第六章:语义系统如何嵌入结构认知


      1. 引言:语义不是解释语言的副产品,而是结构系统的“命名机制”

      我们常将“语义”视为词语的意义,却忽略了它本质上是:

      认知系统中,对结构张力的“命名压缩”操作。

      语义不是解释语言的工具,而是语言如何在结构中“对齐方向”“定下重心”“划分区域”的方式。


      2. 什么是“语义结构”?

      语义不是词典定义,而是认知系统对以下三类张力的“命名”方式:

      • 分类张力:将模糊感受归入某种结构域(例如“爱” vs “迷恋”)
      • 方向张力:给复杂结构施加感知导向(“走火入魔” vs “痴迷”)
      • 强度张力:确定结构中的压强梯度(“喜欢” vs “狂热”)

      因此,

      一个词,就是你在结构张力中的一个“坐标锚点”。


      3. 语义如何嵌入认知结构?

      我们可以将“语义嵌入”视为三层结构处理:

      | 层级 | 嵌入方式 | 表达特点 | | --- | ---------- | ----------- | | 感知层 | 词与感官经验的联动 | 映像感、身体感受 | | 模型层 | 词与张力结构的锚定 | 张力方向、结构形态 | | 语境层 | 词在特定系统中再建构 | 冲突、转义、压强再分配 |

      语义从来不是固定的,它是一种“在结构中被赋能”的机制。


      4. 感性语义如何生成“结构共振”?

      真正有力量的语义,是那些能瞬间激活认知结构的“张力钥匙”:

      • 诗词中的“空山新雨后”不只是画面,而是一种低压高湿的结构唤起
      • “他看我像看一场事故”是一种张力扭曲的嵌入式表达

      好语义,不是准,而是:

      击中一个原本沉默的结构节点,让它整个抖动起来。


      5. 感性建模者如何训练语义嵌入能力?

      1. 张力标签法:对常见词汇建立“张力属性标注”(如压强方向、模糊程度、结构密度)
      2. 语义替换实验:尝试替换某词汇并感知结构变化(如“温柔”换成“钝感”)
      3. 语境反投法:构建微型场景,测试词汇能否激活完整结构张力
      4. 语义共振检验:让不同人使用某词汇叙述,观察共振结构是否一致

      6. 总结:语义是你如何为结构命名,而非为词定义

      你不是在寻找最贴切的词,而是在为你的认知张力结构设定“对齐坐标”。

      一个词,不只是意义,更是一次结构投射,一次认知握手,一次世界切片。

      真正的感性建模语言,是:

      你对世界结构的感知,如何在语义中留下坐标。

      不是“说得明白”,而是让语义成为他人进入你认知地图的钥匙。

    9. 内容剧本

      (前六章内容略)

      《感性建模语言》 第七章:隐喻的算子功能——从语言飞跃到结构跃迁


      1. 引言:隐喻不是修辞,而是模型在跳跃

      我们从小被教导隐喻是“比喻手法”, 但从感性建模视角来看,隐喻是:

      一种低成本认知跃迁的算子机制。

      它不是语言的装饰,而是:

      在结构无法被原坐标系表达时,进行空间切换的桥梁。


      2. 什么是“隐喻的算子功能”?

      在数学中,算子(Operator)是作用于对象的变换装置。 在语言中,隐喻也是:

      • 将一个未知结构嵌入到另一个已知结构中
      • 借助“对称性/映射/变形”来实现认知结构的迁移

      例如:

      “时间是一条河流” 不是为了美,而是:

      • 把“不可逆”“线性流动”“阶段性”这些张力结构,
      • 投影到“河流”这个已知模型中,实现压缩式认知跃迁。

      3. 隐喻的结构跃迁机制

      | 隐喻类型 | 跃迁方式 | 示例 | | ---- | ------ | --------------- | | 概念隐喻 | 抽象结构映射 | 时间 = 空间、情绪 = 温度 | | 图像隐喻 | 可视结构变形 | “他是夜空中的裂缝” | | 动作隐喻 | 动态张力投射 | “她用眼神刺穿我” | | 场景隐喻 | 空间压强跃迁 | “生活像一场无法醒来的剧” |

      每一个隐喻,都是一次坐标系的临时交换,是认知系统自我跳转的“小型函数调用”。


      4. 为什么隐喻是感性建模的核心工具?

      1. 它允许结构不完整但可理解(靠熟悉模型来感知未知结构)
      2. 它能快速引导认知压强指向(用熟悉张力场调动读者结构)
      3. 它具备多义与模糊性(保留模糊,增加共鸣)
      4. 它是认知进化的原子单位(人类靠隐喻压缩信息进行生存)

      5. 如何训练隐喻算子的感性能力?

      • 张力反推练习:听一个隐喻 → 推出其背后的结构张力 → 寻找更合适或更跳跃的替代物
      • 多坐标尝试法:对同一个经验,用空间、时间、情绪、角色等多个域去造隐喻,看哪个触发最大结构跳跃感
      • 混模结构实验:将两个不相干的隐喻连接,制造“意外跃迁区”

      6. 总结:隐喻不是比喻,是结构跨界行为

      感性语言的灵魂不在于“说得美”,而在于:

      当你在原有结构中无法推进时,你能不能构建一座新的张力通道。

      那座通道,就是隐喻。它是一种精致的结构压缩,是人类认知对高维未知的“降维投影图”。

      最强的建模者,不是解释者,而是造桥者。

      用隐喻,连起模糊与清晰、混乱与秩序、你与世界。

    10. 简单版本

      (前七章内容略)

      《感性建模语言》 第八章:叙事结构的张力建模


      1. 为什么叙事如此有力?

      人类从未天生渴望“事实”,我们渴望“结构中的张力”。

      而叙事,恰恰是一种张力编码-释放机制

      • 设置缺失(欲望/失衡)
      • 建立张力(冲突/阻力)
      • 释放张力(解决/转变)

      你说“我听懂了一个故事”,其实你是“经历了一次结构张力的感知通道”。


      2. 叙事 = 张力编排器

      我们可以将叙事建模为如下三段张力函数:

      T(x) = f_1(设定) + f_2(冲突) + f_3(转化)

      每一层函数都是对“结构不稳定性”的建模与调整。


      3. 好的叙事,从不怕制造“不可解”

      • 它敢于让系统崩解(如“我不知道接下来会发生什么”)
      • 它敢于设置认知残差(如“为什么他会这样想?”)
      • 它敢于引发结构跳变(如“原来他是我父亲”)

      它不是线性展开,而是张力涌动。


      4. 为什么你会“代入”?

      代入不是共情,而是你认知结构在某一张力路径上发生了共振

      • 人不是理解情节,而是体验结构压强
      • 所以故事不是要“好看”,而是要“对称、微颤、有残差”

      情节的快感,来自结构张力的微扰轨迹


      5. 叙事张力的认知语法:

      • Who(身份悖论)
      • Want(目标偏差)
      • Block(阻力张量)
      • Change(结构转置)

      每个“反转”都对应一次结构重排。


      6. 总结:叙事是一种结构推演语言

      • 它模拟冲突中的结构选择
      • 它训练系统对张力的解析能力
      • 它让理解从静态语言跃迁为动态过程

      故事,是结构体验的模拟器。

      《感性建模语言》 第九章:感性模型的生成流程


      1. 什么是“感性模型”?

      它不是传统意义上的认知模型,而是:

      一种能同时嵌入情绪、结构感与表达路径的混合张量模型

      它不是描述世界的工具,而是感受世界 + 投影语言 + 行动导航的三合一系统。


      2. 感性模型不是逻辑结构,而是:

      残差 + 张力 + 投射语义 = 感性生成单位(Sensory Construct Unit)

      它由以下三步生成:

      1. 捕捉张力(Tension Detection)
      2. 建立微扰映射(Tensor Sketching)
      3. 嵌入表达通道(Language Porting)

      3. 感性模型与符号模型的关键区别

      | | 符号模型 | 感性模型 | | ---- | ------ | ------- | | 基础单元 | 规则、概念 | 残差、张力 | | 结构逻辑 | 演绎/归纳 | 微扰/共振 | | 输出形式 | 判断、公式 | 表达、动作 | | 适用场景 | 明确定义问题 | 未定义模糊问题 |


      4. 为什么我们需要感性模型?

      因为现代问题越来越:

      • 非线性
      • 非结构化
      • 情绪嵌套
      • 多维反馈

      只有感性模型,才能:

      在“概念无法完全捕捉”之处,建立“结构性的理解”。


      5. 生成流程公式化描述(草模)

      感性模型 = f(ΔT, R, E) → M

      • ΔT = 局部张力扰动图谱
      • R = 认知残差轨迹
      • E = 嵌入语境的表达潜能
      • M = 可输出的结构型表达单元(短文、比喻、情绪图、叙述等)

      6. 总结:感性建模,不是替代理性,而是补上理性的盲区

      你不是非理性,你只是走在理性前面。

      真正的认知成熟,是拥有一套能感受、能表达、能结构的模型——它不藏在数据里,也不藏在公式里,

      它藏在你感受到“哪里不对劲”之后,依然能说出一套语言的那一刻。

    11. 文版版本

      (前十二章内容略)

      《感性建模语言》 第十三章:认知生成的伦理维度与边界问题


      1. 引言:你不是在表达,你是在重新布图别人的结构

      每一次语言、视觉、动作、声音的输出, 如果它具有结构张力、诱发共鸣、引发再建模的能力, 那你就是在进入另一个人的“认知建构空间”。

      建模者,天然具有塑造他人世界观的权力。

      问题是:你知不知道?你想不想负责任?你设不设边界?


      2. 感性模型的双刃性:引导 or 操控?

      与逻辑推理模型不同,感性模型:

      • 不靠论证赢得同意,而是用共振诱发理解;
      • 不告诉你“这合理”,而是让你“觉得有感觉”;

      这就带来一个深刻的伦理问题:

      感性影响 ≈ 情绪借道的结构干预。

      一旦你熟练掌握这些建模技巧:

      • 你可以创造极高传播力的内容;
      • 也可能诱导群体性认知偏斜。

      3. 你在建构他人的“感知滤镜”

      人的判断,并非源于事实,而是基于他们看世界的滤镜。

      当你说出一个隐喻、一段故事、一幅图像, 它就是一次“滤镜编程”。

      你不是改变了他的想法,而是改变了他解释现实的方式。


      4. 建模者的边界自觉:三条伦理原则

      我们建议在感性模型输出中,引入以下自我校正机制:

      1. 非自利优先

      2. 不以博取认同、情绪操控为首要目的

      3. 审问:“我是想表达,还是想控制?”

      4. 结构透明

      5. 在适当节点揭示你的建模路径与核心张力(尤其是强情绪表达之后)

      6. 提供“出口”,而非只制造冲突

      7. 共振守界

      8. 不在受众尚未具备缓冲结构的状态下,释放过强张力

      9. 不故意引发无可承载的认知残差

      这不是“谨慎”,而是“尊重认知系统的节律”。


      5. 被误用的感性技术:历史反面教材

      • 纳粹美学:海报与叙事张力统一制造强共鸣,引发非理性集体模型采纳
      • 假信息操控:使用“伪结构通感”包装(看似合理的情绪节奏+图文样式)引发结构误读
      • AI情绪引导:算法调控情绪曲线,引导用户认知停留在可操控的结构层面

      这些不是风格错误,而是结构操控的不设限


      6. 正面使用:感性模型的伦理实践方式

      • 教育:提供结构对比与映射(而非标准答案)
      • 设计:嵌入留白,引导认知自构建,而非强制灌输
      • 治愈:利用情绪张力匹配+缓冲释放,修复结构创伤
      • 科普:用结构性隐喻引导认知升维,而非简化媚俗

      你可以不完美,但你要知道你在做什么。

      输出感性建模能力的人,必须练习“结构责任感”。


      7. 总结:认知的边界,不是能力的尽头,而是责任的起点

      真正的感性表达高手: 不是“写得多煽动”,而是“能创造结构张力,也能温柔收敛”; 不是“掌握语言”,而是“理解理解的生成过程”。

      你的表达不是在说你是谁,而是在决定别人将如何看这个世界。

      感性模型的最后一关,不是技术——是边界,是克制,是诚意。

    12. 详细剧本版本

      (前十一章内容略)

      《感性建模语言》 第十二章:审美如何形成结构感


      1. 引言:美感不是好看,而是张力被精准安排

      当你说“这很美”,你其实在说:

      这段结构,在感知上“张力正好”。

      不是对称本身动人,也不是色彩本身高级, 而是它们之间的张力关系——对了。


      2. 审美,是张力 × 缓冲的感知动态

      我们可以定义:

      美感 ≈ 张力强度 ÷ 认知缓冲

      | 场景 | 张力程度 | 缓冲结构 | 审美效果 | | ----- | -------------- | --------- | ----- | | 哥特建筑 | 高张力(尖顶、密集结构) | 宗教信仰、光线引导 | 神圣、敬畏 | | 极简设计 | 极低张力 | 留白、对称 | 空灵、纯净 | | 芭蕾舞 | 高张力(动作、姿态) | 音乐节奏、身体控制 | 优雅、克制 | | 宫崎骏画面 | 多重张力(画面、叙事、情绪) | 柔和色调、节奏过渡 | 温暖、含蓄 |

      审美,就是“结构负载感”与“系统弹性”的完美匹配。


      3. 张力的三种典型审美策略

      1. 对称型(classic harmony)

      2. 审美来源:稳定、秩序、逻辑一致

      3. 案例:古希腊雕塑、文艺复兴构图、理性主义字体

      4. 破裂型(tense dissonance)

      5. 审美来源:冲突、意外、未完成感

      6. 案例:毕加索立体主义、战后建筑、电子噪音音乐

      7. 过渡型(emergent morphing)

      8. 审美来源:在结构临界点游走的“动感”

      9. 案例:莫奈光影变化、现代舞蹈、长镜头戏剧感

      这些并不是风格差异,而是张力控制策略的三种范式


      4. 审美判断是结构识别,不是主观偏好

      当你喜欢一张图、一段舞、一个logo, 不是因为你“主观喜欢”,而是:

      • 你能“识别出它的张力结构”
      • 你“在其中找到了与自己系统对齐的张力节奏”

      所以,审美不是品味,而是张力通感能力的体现


      5. 审美过程中的残差感知机制

      美感的产生有时来自**“几乎崩溃但没崩溃”的状态**:

      • 结构刚刚撑住不对称
      • 情绪刚刚停止泛滥
      • 留白刚好不至于空洞

      我们称之为“结构残差缓冲点”(Aesthetic Residual Threshold)。

      这时你感到一种精致的震颤:

      美,是张力在失衡前最后一次深呼吸。


      6. 应用:如何创造具有结构感的审美?

      在设计/写作/音乐/表演中,运用如下审美建模法:

      1. 找出核心张力(对比、节奏、转折、模糊…)
      2. 设计缓冲机制(过渡色、节拍停顿、空间布局…)
      3. 调整临界值(让感知“感到刺激但不爆炸”)

      让人感到“美”的瞬间,是“张力感知”+“系统预测”+“情绪投射”三者叠加的高峰值。


      7. 总结:美,不是视觉,是结构在感知坐标下的有机自洽

      你对一个作品的审美感受, 不是你看了什么,而是:

      你识别出了其中张力结构的秩序, 并在那一刻,与你的认知系统共振。

      这,就是结构感赋予美的意义。

      美感不是感觉好,而是结构“被你感受到”。

    13. 详细剧本版本

      (前十一章内容略)

      《感性建模语言》 第十二章:审美如何形成结构感


      1. 引言:美感不是好看,而是张力被精准安排

      当你说“这很美”,你其实在说:

      这段结构,在感知上“张力正好”。

      不是对称本身动人,也不是色彩本身高级, 而是它们之间的张力关系——对了。


      2. 审美,是张力 × 缓冲的感知动态

      我们可以定义:

      美感 ≈ 张力强度 ÷ 认知缓冲

      | 场景 | 张力程度 | 缓冲结构 | 审美效果 | | ----- | -------------- | --------- | ----- | | 哥特建筑 | 高张力(尖顶、密集结构) | 宗教信仰、光线引导 | 神圣、敬畏 | | 极简设计 | 极低张力 | 留白、对称 | 空灵、纯净 | | 芭蕾舞 | 高张力(动作、姿态) | 音乐节奏、身体控制 | 优雅、克制 | | 宫崎骏画面 | 多重张力(画面、叙事、情绪) | 柔和色调、节奏过渡 | 温暖、含蓄 |

      审美,就是“结构负载感”与“系统弹性”的完美匹配。


      3. 张力的三种典型审美策略

      1. 对称型(classic harmony)

      2. 审美来源:稳定、秩序、逻辑一致

      3. 案例:古希腊雕塑、文艺复兴构图、理性主义字体

      4. 破裂型(tense dissonance)

      5. 审美来源:冲突、意外、未完成感

      6. 案例:毕加索立体主义、战后建筑、电子噪音音乐

      7. 过渡型(emergent morphing)

      8. 审美来源:在结构临界点游走的“动感”

      9. 案例:莫奈光影变化、现代舞蹈、长镜头戏剧感

      这些并不是风格差异,而是张力控制策略的三种范式


      4. 审美判断是结构识别,不是主观偏好

      当你喜欢一张图、一段舞、一个logo, 不是因为你“主观喜欢”,而是:

      • 你能“识别出它的张力结构”
      • 你“在其中找到了与自己系统对齐的张力节奏”

      所以,审美不是品味,而是张力通感能力的体现


      5. 审美过程中的残差感知机制

      美感的产生有时来自**“几乎崩溃但没崩溃”的状态**:

      • 结构刚刚撑住不对称
      • 情绪刚刚停止泛滥
      • 留白刚好不至于空洞

      我们称之为“结构残差缓冲点”(Aesthetic Residual Threshold)。

      这时你感到一种精致的震颤:

      美,是张力在失衡前最后一次深呼吸。


      6. 应用:如何创造具有结构感的审美?

      在设计/写作/音乐/表演中,运用如下审美建模法:

      1. 找出核心张力(对比、节奏、转折、模糊…)
      2. 设计缓冲机制(过渡色、节拍停顿、空间布局…)
      3. 调整临界值(让感知“感到刺激但不爆炸”)

      让人感到“美”的瞬间,是“张力感知”+“系统预测”+“情绪投射”三者叠加的高峰值。


      7. 总结:美,不是视觉,是结构在感知坐标下的有机自洽

      你对一个作品的审美感受, 不是你看了什么,而是:

      你识别出了其中张力结构的秩序, 并在那一刻,与你的认知系统共振。

      这,就是结构感赋予美的意义。

      美感不是感觉好,而是结构“被你感受到”。

    14. 详细版本

      (前十章内容略)

      《感性建模语言》 第十一章:多模态认知的交叉建模


      1. 引言:我们不是看见或听见,而是“结构在不同坐标下的激活”

      你有没有这种体验?

      • 听到一段旋律,脑中浮现画面;
      • 看到一张图像,情绪立刻泛起;
      • 读一句诗,身体像被什么击中。

      这不是感性神经的“多管齐下”,而是认知系统在进行一次跨模态张力对齐


      2. 模态 ≠ 通道,模态 = 结构的投影维度

      我们不是“输入多个通道”,而是:

      在不同坐标系下读取、生成、重构同一个认知张量结构。

      | 模态类型 | 结构维度 | 投影结果 | | ---- | --------- | ---------- | | 语言 | 线性序列结构 | 逻辑、事件、叙事 | | 图像 | 空间拓扑结构 | 构图、色彩、视觉张力 | | 音乐 | 时间-频率结构 | 节奏、情绪曲线 | | 动作 | 力量-空间路径结构 | 意图、角色、心理张力 |

      每个模态,是认知张量在某一观察系下的“切面”。


      3. 多模态交叉 ≈ 张力映射的同构验证

      当你感受到“这画面配这音乐太对了”,不是偶然,而是:

      • 音乐的情绪张力与图像的色彩结构,发生了张量谱的对齐
      • 两者张力变化率(ΔT/Δt)高度匹配,形成跨模态共振轨迹

      这种对齐,带来的是直觉快感。 不是知识上的懂,而是身体里的“对”。


      4. 多模态结构建模的三步:解码、映射、激活

      我们可以构建如下流程:

      结构认知流程 S: ① 解码各模态张力结构 S_i ← M_i(模态数据) ② 在张力空间中进行对齐/映射 S_i ↔ S_j ③ 激活统一的结构认知张量 S*

      举例:

      • 图像中留白与音乐中停顿可以共振
      • 语言节奏与动作速度可以映射
      • 音色温度与色彩饱和度可以相互翻译

      5. 模态间不是翻译,而是“结构互投”

      我们常说“将诗变成画”,其实不是翻译,而是:

      从诗中提取结构张力轨迹,用图像语言重投这组张量

      结构不变,语言改变,感受却依然真实。


      6. 应用场景:创作、教学、表达、AI系统设计

      多模态结构建模,可以用于:

      • 写剧本时用配乐方式设计情绪节奏
      • 做视频时从词句结构映射剪辑节拍
      • 设计AI时用图像激活语言模型的情绪边界感知能力

      未来AI的“感性理解”,就是多模态张力建模的能力边界。


      7. 总结:你不是在听歌或看画,你是在用整个感官系统读取一组结构

      感性不是混乱,而是跨模态结构张力场的动态协调性反应

      多模态感知,不是通感泛滥,而是认知系统精妙的“结构投影与再激活”。

      感性模型强者,不是会表达,而是会把一套结构

      在图像、语言、声音、动作中全部同时点亮。

    15. 详细版本

      (前九章内容略)

      《感性建模语言》 第十章:视觉认知的张量翻译


      1. 引言:你看到的,不是图像,而是张力

      我们通常认为视觉是一种“感官输入”,图像是“信息容器”。 但在认知模型中,视觉并不是一种被动接受,而是一种主动建构:

      视觉,是大脑将世界中的张力结构,在二维空间中完成的一次张量翻译。

      不是“看见了什么”,而是“感受到了什么结构”。


      2. 图像的结构张力语言

      一个图像之所以“让人有感觉”,不是因为它漂亮,而是因为它满足了如下条件:

      • 拥有清晰可辨的张力源(如对比、暗示、缺失)
      • 拥有足够的结构复杂性(不是混乱,而是多层结构)
      • 拥有缓冲机制(节奏、呼吸、留白、构图引导)

      这不是美学修辞,而是认知压强差的物理表现。

      举例:

      • 对称带来稳定张力(结构封闭)
      • 倾斜制造运动张力(结构失衡)
      • 空白制造延迟张力(预期未满足)
      • 色彩对比制造认知冲突(结构干涉)

      3. 图像的认知张量表达模型

      我们定义图像不是画面,而是:

      I(x, y) = T[x, y, c],其中:

      • x, y 是二维空间坐标,
      • c 是感知通道(颜色、形状、纹理、语义层),
      • T 是张量函数,表示“张力在不同维度下的分布权重”。

      换句话说:视觉图像就是一个结构张力的空间投影矩阵


      4. 人是如何从图像中“读出”结构的?

      人的视觉系统并不是扫描像素,而是使用结构模板来匹配图像的张力分布:

      • 看一张画,我们寻找“视觉焦点”(张力中心)
      • 看一张地图,我们寻找“分布模式”(张力方向)
      • 看一张照片,我们寻找“情绪投影”(张力情境)

      这一过程的本质是:

      将二维图像翻译为结构识别的高维路径


      5. 视觉认知的“模糊对齐”机制

      我们常说“这图让我想起了XXX”,这不是错觉,而是:

      • 你的结构记忆库中找到了一组相似的张力分布图谱;
      • 这种匹配,不依赖具体内容,而依赖张量结构的模糊重叠程度

      你感受到的“熟悉感”,其实是认知张量被激活的回响。


      6. 实际应用:如何设计有张力的图像?

      在创作中,我们不只是“放元素”,而是在编排张力:

      • 用颜色制造感知节奏(冷暖 vs 和谐)
      • 用构图制造张力对抗(挤压 vs 留白)
      • 用对称/破坏对称制造视觉张力周期
      • 用视觉路径引导情绪结构流动(Z字形排布)

      好的视觉作品=有结构,有张力,有缓冲,有投射


      7. 总结:视觉,是结构张力的通感入口

      你不是“看懂了图片”,而是你的认知系统

      在图像里识别了结构关系,体验了张力分布,完成了结构投影。

      所谓视觉美感,其实是结构张量在二维空间中的一次温柔颤动

      这不是设计理论,而是人类认知机制最本能的数学共鸣。

    1. Summary - ANI is good for closely related microbial species - For distant ones, Amino acid is better (AAI)

      Implementation: - Identify markers among the 122 single copy proteins with HMMs - Break protein sequence into k-mers, k = 4 amino acids - Find jacard distance between 2 organisms as an estimator of AAI! - Process done very fast and comparable accuracy to rRNA phylogeny!

      Briefly, FastAAI performs, (i) identification of marker proteins in each genome using a set of 122 universal SCP represented by hidden Markov models (HMMs) (Supplementary Table S6, and below), (ii) extraction of tetramers for each protein per genome, (iii) estimation of Jaccard indices based on the tetramers extracted from proteins shared by a genome pair, (iv) estimation of the average Jaccard index (⁠ ⁠) followed by its translation to estimated AAI values

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      Manuscript number____: RC-2024-02806R

      Corresponding author(s): Hamed Jafar-Nejad, Carmen Paradas

      Point-by-point description of the revisions

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The manuscript by Cho et al uses conditional and inducible conditional mouse models to characterize the function of protein O-glucosyltransferase 1 (POGLUT1), known to cause a type of Limb Girdle Muscular Dystrophy (LGMD-R21), in skeletal muscle satellite cells, differentiation and regeneration. The Authors find that conditional deletion of POGLUT1 in the myogenic progenitors leads to postnatal muscle defects and lethality by postnatal day 30 or so. Muscle progenitors lacking POGLUT1 undergo reduced proliferation and accelerated differentiation, possibly leading to impairment in muscle regeneration. This is supported by an inducible conditional deletion of POGLUT1 in adult satellite cells. Finally, in vitro experiments suggest that POGLUT1 is required for NOTCH pathway activation in myogenic cells and that POGLUT1 could potentially glycosylate specific residues in NOTCH3.

      • We thank the reviewer for the concise summary of the major findings of our manuscript and for her/his comments, which have helped us improve the manuscript.

        Major comments

      1. What is the control used in Figure 1B and other panels? The genotype should be clearly specified instead of saying controls, in all the figures. It will be easier to interpret the data if densitometry of the western blots is provided, normalized to GAPDH levels. Also, is there some POGLUT1 protein remaining in the satellite cells in the cKOs? Data should be shown for an adult time point also (P30 or later), in addition to P0 and P4, to see whether Poglut1 levels are reduced in adult stages in the muscle and satellite cells in the cKOs.
      • As described in the Methods section of the original submission, for all experiments involving Poglut1-cKO, siblings without Poglut1 deletion (Poglut1+/+, Poglut1flox/flox, or Pax7Cre; Poglut1+/+) were used as controls. To address the reviewer's comment, we added this information to the legend of all figures showing Poglut1-cKO
      • In the revised version, the densitometry is provided for all western blot images (Figures 1B and 7A). We added western blot with anti-POGLUT1 on whole muscle extract from P21 animals (Figure 1B), which is the latest stage at which we consistently obtain Poglut1-cKO PAX7 staining and injury studies indicate that at P21 there is a significant reduction in the number of satellite cells. Therefore, isolation of sufficient satellite cells from later stages is not feasible.

        1. In Figure 1C, can the tibia weight be normalized to total body weight instead of tibia length and analyzed? Similarly, can the grip strength measurements in Figure 1G be normalized to total body weight and represented? Grip strength measurements in neonates is tricky; the Authors should clearly explain how this was done. The NMJ defects can be characterized better, especially since the Authors discuss about Agrin in detail.
      • Normalizing tibialis anterior muscle weight to tibia bone length is commonly used and is especially useful when assessing muscle-specific growth or atrophy, as it provides a standardized measure to compare between different mice. To address the reviewer's comment, in the revised manuscript we have provided the tibialis anterior weight (not normalized), tibia length, and then the normalized TA weight (which was also shown in the first submission). Before normalization, the TA weight in cKO showed ~ 56% reduction compared to control (on average). The tibia length did not show a statistically significant difference between cKO and sibling control. After normalization to tibia length, the TA muscle weight still showed a substantial (55%) reduction in cKO mice compared to controls. These data indicate that a reduction in muscle size is the major if not the sole reason for the reduction observed in cKO body size.

      • We reanalyzed the grip strength based on the reviewer's comment and found that when normalized to body weight, the grip strength is not significantly different between cKO and control animals (please see the following figure for the reviewer). Accordingly, we have modified the Results section to avoid any direct suggestion that the muscle function itself is impaired in the cKO animals. Specifically, instead of writing "... suggesting that the muscle function is impaired in the mutant mice" we wrote " ... suggesting reduced muscle strength in the mutant mice". Moreover, at the end of this paragraph, instead of referring to "a severe muscle weakness" we just describe the phenotype as "muscle weakness". Our goal from this paragraph is to suggest that since the animals have much smaller muscles, they are weaker and cannot eat properly; that's why switching to soft food somewhat improves their survival. The observed NMJ defects suggest that there might be functional muscle defects as well. However, to draw conclusions about the muscle function we will need additional experiments, which we believe are beyond the scope of the current manuscript. If the reviewer believes the normalized grip test should be added to the manuscript, we will be happy to do so as a supplementary figure.
      • As stated in the original manuscript, grip test was done starting at P12. Following the Boston University Guideline (https://www.bu.edu/research/ethics-compliance/animal-subjects/animal-care/anesthesia/anesthesia-and-analgesia-neonatal-mice-and-rats-iacuc/; recommended by Jacksons Laboratory when working with neonatal mice), we consider P10 to be the end of the neonatal period in mice. This is also supported by the majority of the papers in literature. For example, in a paper entitled "Quantitative analysis of neonatal skeletal muscle functional improvement in the mouse" (PMID 18310108), the authors show that by P28, most anatomical and gene expression parameters of mouse skeletal muscle are close to adults, and that by P21, these parameters are closer to P28 than the early postnatal mice. Also, they show that the expression of neonatal myosin heavy chain is dramatically reduced between P7 and P14, with another 3-4-fold reduction between P14 and P21. Therefore, for muscle development, similar to many other contexts studied in mice, neonatal period ends between P7 and P14 (most likely P8-P10). Therefore, the grip tests have not been performed on neonatal mice. In the revised manuscript, we have clarified this issue in the Methods section.
      • The NMJ defects were not the main focus of the manuscript and were performed as a standard characterization of this new mouse model. We agree that additional experiments can be performed to better characterize the NMJ defects in this model, but we believe those experiments are beyond the scope of the current manuscript. Also, given the new data and text added to the revised manuscript, we removed the section related to NMJ and agrin from the Discussion to reduce the manuscript length.

        1. What are the small myofibers seen at the corners of the larger myofibers at P21 in the cKOs in Figure 2E? What is the point that the Authors want to conclude from Figure 2C and D? Clearly, if there are fewer satellite cells, Pax7 transcript levels will decrease. In Figure 2D, how are the satellite cell samples normalized between control and cKOs; did they start with equal number of satellite cells or equal amount of satellite cell RNA between control and cKOs? In Figure 2F, representative images for cKOs should be shown? The conclusion from Figure 2F-G is unclear. Since the Authors claim that the weak laminin staining is resolved in the cKOs by P21, why is α-dystroglycan hypoglycosylation seen in the P21 muscle?
      • The structures to which the reviewer is referring are blood vessels. As shown in the following figure generated for the reviewer, staining the muscle sections from control and cKO mice using the endothelial marker CD31 confirms the vascular nature of those structures.

      • The decrease in PAX7+ cells was shown based on antibody staining, but this does not necessarily mean that Pax7 mRNA is similarly reduced. Figure 2C and 2D show that loss of Poglut1 in these cells affects Pax7 expression at the mRNA level. We started with equal amounts of RNA for Figure 2D and have added additional text to describe RNA isolation and RT-PCR in the Methods section of the revised manuscript.

      • Representative images for cKOs are added to the revised Figure 2, as suggested.
      • The conclusion from 2F-G is that a statistically significant reduction is specifically observed in those PAX7+ cells which co-express M-cadherin, which is another well-established satellite cell marker. The data also indicate that some PAX7+ cells persist in the mutant muscle, highlighting the importance of examining the ability of mutant muscle to repair muscle injury, as shown in Figure 4.
      • The glycans on α-dystroglycan mediate its binding to laminin and other extracellular matrix proteins, but laminin expression level is not thought to regulate the degree of α-dystroglycan glycosylation. In other words, laminin staining intensity and the degree of α-dystroglycan are not causally related to each other. What we observed in P21 animals mirrors what we have reported for adult patient biopsies: normal level of extracellular matrix protein collagen VI associated with α-dystroglycan hypoglycosylation. It is worth mentioning that based on our previous report using primary LGMD-R21 patient myoblasts and C2C12 cells treated with a Notch inhibitor, reducing Notch signaling leads to α-dystroglycan hypoglycosylation, likely by altering the differentiation dynamics of the myoblasts (PMID: 27807076).

        1. Representative images should be shown as examples for all time points for both genotypes in Figure 3A. Figure 3H should be represented with statistically significant differences marked clearly. Have the Authors checked whether cell death contributes to the decrease in cultured satellite cells and Pax7+ cells in the cKOs in Figure 3F, G? Are the differences between the control and cKOs in fusion index and Myogenin expression (Figure 3J, K) statistically significant?
      • Representative images are added in a new supplementary figure (Figure S3A) as requested by the reviewer.

      • Thanks for pointing out the lack of statistics in Figure 3H. To address this point and a comment by reviewer 2, we removed those quantifications from the manuscript. Instead, we performed PAX7/MYOD/Ki67 co-staining on cultured cells and quantified the percentage of each cell state based on the expression of these three markers as a more accurate measure of quiescent versus cycling satellite cells, as well as progenitors and precursor cells. The revised quantification and statistical analysis is presented in the revised Figure 3H. This quantification is represented similarly to the data shown in Gattazzo et al 2020.
      • Thanks for bringing up the issue of cell death. To address this point, we performed two rounds of anti-Caspase 3 staining on a limited number of myogenic progenitors that we were able to isolate from cKO and control animals during the revisions. Unfortunately, the stainings did not work. To ensure that we do not rule out the possibility of apoptosis without experimental data, we added the following sentence to the Results section: "These data suggest reduced proliferation of myogenic cells upon loss of Poglut1, although we cannot exclude that cell death also contributes to the reduced cell number."
      • Thanks for pointing out the lack of statistics for these data. We have added additional independent samples to the data presented in 3J, K and found that the differences between the control and cKOs in fusion index and Myogenin expression are indeed statistically significant.

        1. Figure 4 has multiple problems in my opinion. First, P21 is too early a time point to be talking about regeneration, since satellite cells are just transitioning to become quiescent cells at this time (described in Lepper et al, Nature 2009). It is difficult to distinguish the regenerative and neonatal developmental roles of satellite cells in the experiment that the Authors have carried out. Another issue is that the Authors show a decrease in satellite cells in the cKOs; satellite cell function is clearly known to be required for regeneration. Therefore, there is not much novelty that the cKOs exhibit poor regenerative capability. The data shown in Figure 4B-E is more or less a repetition of what has been shown in Figures 2 and 3.
      • After carefully reviewing publications including the one suggested by the reviewer, we found that multiple studies have performed muscle injury experiments at P21 or even younger ages to study regeneration capabilities. Also, please consider that many of our mutant mice are lethal around weaning age which was another reason for selecting P21 as our injury timepoint. To better explain the logic for this choice, we have added the following sentences to the revised manuscript (new text is underlined: "To address this question, we induced muscle injury in mutant and control mice by injecting cardiotoxin (CTX) into TA muscles at P21 (Fig. 4A), an age at which we consistently obtain Poglut1-cKO animals without any dietary changes (Fig. 1E). Importantly, in WT C57BL/6 mice, 51% of PAX7+ cells are reported to be in the quiescent state at P21 (Gattazzo et al., 2020) and the TA muscles of P21 mice exhibit a robust regenerative response to cardiotoxin-induced injury (Lepper et al., 2009)."

      • While the reduction in satellite cells (SCs) in cKOs suggests impaired regeneration, it was essential to confirm this experimentally, as remaining SCs could still compensate. Therefore, it was necessary to assess whether the residual satellite cells could proliferate and contribute to muscle repair. Our results demonstrate that our mutant mice fail to repair muscle, providing evidence that the reduction in PAX7+ cells in Poglut1-cKO mice is functionally significant. The goal of these experiments was not to increase novelty; it was to increase experimental rigor and reproducibility so that we don't draw functional conclusions merely based on tissue staining.
      • While Figures 2 and 3 examine muscle sections and myoblast cultures, Figure 4B-E presents isolated fibers in an ex vivo culture system. This approach allows us to assess satellite cell activation and proliferation in a different injury model. Figure 4 lets us confirm that the proliferation defect observed in the cKO is consistent across multiple experimental conditions. Additionally, we utilized two forms of muscle injury-in vivo and ex vivo-to comprehensively evaluate the function of PAX7+ cells in WT versus mutant muscles. The ex vivo findings from EDL fibers align with our cell culture experiments in Figure 3, further supporting the observed defect in muscle repair. We believe this approach will increase the likelihood of obtaining reproducible data.

        1. In Figure 5C, D, have the Authors checked the Pax7+ cell numbers between the controls and the i-cKOs? Is the difference seen in 1X TAM due to preexisting reduction in satellite cells in the i-cKOs? What is the explanation by the Authors for the large number of Tomato+ fibers seen in the 2X TAM and 3X TAM uninjured muscle (Figure 3C, E)? Figure 5E is difficult to comprehend and should be represented in a clearer manner.
      • New PAX7 staining shows that most of the TOM+ cells (93% in i-cKO, 97% in control) co-express PAX7 (revised Figure 6D and 6E). If preexisting meant "before tamoxifen injection", a preexisting reduction in satellite cells should be highly unlikely, as the Pax7-Cre-ERT2 line has been used by multiple groups to study adult satellite cells, and we have not observed any abnormalities in the Poglut1[flox/flox] strain. Moreover, our control animals harbor both Pax7-Cre-ERT2 and the tdTomato transgenes. The observed difference in 1xTAM most likely reflects spontaneous activation and fusion of these cells following loss of Poglut1, as evidenced by the enhanced appearance of Tomato+ fibers in i-cKO muscles compared to control muscles. At 1xTAM, we can observe a modest increase in Tomato⁺ The reduction becomes more pronounced with repeated tamoxifen, consistent with progressive differentiation of the satellite cell pool and their fusion with myofibers.

      • For Figure 5E (now Figure 6C), we made some changes to make the graph clearer and added a sentence to the figure legend to make it easier to follow.

        1. Densitometry for Figure 6A should be included, since N1 ICD levels seem quite variable in the controls also. POGLUT1 expression and shRNA knockdown efficiency should be shown in Figure 6B. What is the correlation between the NOTCH3 glycosylation with reduced NOTCH pathway activation and satellite cell function? This should be clearly discussed. Why was the NOTCH3 glycosylation assay done in HEK293 cells?
      • In the revised version, we have included densitometry for Figure 6A (now Figure 7A).

      • In the revised version, we show qRT-PCR data indicating that C2C12 cells stably expressing Poglut1 shRNA show ~ 75% decrease in Poglut1 mRNA levels compared to control cells (now Figure 7B), in agreement with our original report of these cells (PMID 21490058). We also performed qRT-PCR for Pax7 and found a significant reduction in Pax7 mRNA levels in Poglut1-knockdown C2C12 cells, further supporting their usage in these signaling assays.
      • As discussed in detail in the Results and Discussion sections of the original submission, reports from our lab and others have provided strong evidence that glycosylation of NOTCH1 and NOTCH2 by POGLUT1 promotes signaling mediated by these receptors. Since it was not clear whether this phenomenon is ligand-specific, in the current manuscript we showed that both DLL1-madiated and JAG1-mediated signaling by NOTCH1 and NOTCH2 require the expression of POGLUT1 in the signal-receiving cells. Since NOTCH3 also plays a key role in muscle stem cell biology (albeit a not so well characterized one), we showed in the current manuscript that reducing POGLUT1 in the NOTCH3-expressing cell also leads to a significant reduction in signaling mediated by this receptor. Moreover, we found that NOTCH3 is broadly glycosylated by POGLUT1. In fact, during the revision, we succeeded in confirming four additional POGLUT1 target sites on the mouse NOTCH3 protein (added to the revised Figure 7D and Supplementary Figure S4). These data suggest that similar to NOTCH1 and NOTCH2, POGLUT1-medaited O-glucosylation of NOTCH3 is required for its signaling. To address the reviewer's comment, in the revised manuscript, we have added the following phrase to the Discussion to address the reviewer's comment: "..., strongly suggesting that O-glucosylation of NOTCH3 by POGLUT1 promotes its ligand-mediated activation."
      • HEK293 cells express robust levels of POGLUT1 and have been used in previous studies for the characterization of POGLUT1-mediated glycosylation of its target proteins. Analysis of overexpressed target proteins in this cell line is used to establish assay conditions and glycopeptide identification parameters and thereby sets the stage to analyze glycosylation of endogenous protein (in this case, mouse NOTCH3) in specific cell types. We note that in cases examined so far, the glycosylation data obtained from overexpressed proteins in HEK293 or other commonly used mammalian cell lines recapitulate the glycosylation of endogenously expressed POGLUT1 targets very well (both in cell culture and in vivo; for example see PMID 27268051).

        Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

        Based on my expertise as a muscle and stem cell biologist, the manuscript is not clearly thought through, with not many novel inferences that one can draw from the data provided. While the manuscript could be informative to muscle biologists and stem cell investigators, several additional experiments are required to better characterize the phenotypes and provide meaningful conclusions from the study. The role of POGLUT1 in the muscle could be of great interest, especially in light of its role in LGMD-R21, as described by some of the Authors previously. Several pieces of data provided in the current manuscript are disjointed, with few connecting links, such as the NMJ characterization, the NOTCH glycosylation data and the regeneration experiments done on P21 neonates. Better quantitation of data is required as well, as detailed below. Overall, the manuscript may be revised to address the specific comments and reconsidered at a suitable journal.

      Response: We hope that our explanations, additional experiments, and changes to the text have helped address the concerns raised by the reviewer.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Poglut1 mutations have been identified in an autosomal recessive form of muscular dystrophy. Poglut1 encodes an O-glucosyltransferase that modifies Notch receptors and ligands but also has other substrates. In mice, null mutations in Poglut1 are embryonic lethal, which has previously precluded the analysis of Poglut1's role in muscle development and regeneration using murine models. To address this limitation, the authors generated a conditional Poglut1 allele and introduced mutations using Pax7Cre or Pax7CreERT2. They characterize the phenotypic consequences of these mutations and further demonstrate that signaling through the Notch1, Notch2, and Notch3 receptors requires Poglut1 using the C2C12 cell culture model.

      Some aspects of the manuscript's description of muscle stem cell behavior and regeneration are not fully up to date. These points should be addressed before publication.

      Specific points

      1) Evidence Supporting Reduced Notch Signaling as the Cause of the Phenotype The comparison of muscle phenotypes observed in other Notch signaling mutations strongly supports the hypothesis that the phenotype is due to reduced Notch signaling. Relevant studies, such as those addressing development (PMID: 17194759, PMID: 17360543) and those focusing on adult muscle and regeneration (PMID: 21989910, PMID: 22069237, PMID: 22045613, PMID: 30862660) should be cited and discussed in the manuscript. Including these references will strengthen the argument and provide a broader context for the findings.

      • We thank the reviewer for this comment. To address this point and a similar comment made by reviewer 3, we have modified the Introduction and Discussion in the revised manuscript. In the Introduction, we have added the following sentences and have cited all 6 references listed by the reviewer: "Loss of function studies for key components of the Notch signaling pathway including Rbpj and Dll1 indicated that disruption of this pathway during muscle development leads to premature differentiation and depletion of muscle progenitor cells (Schuster-Gossler et al., 2007; Vasyutina et al., 2007). In addition, multiple studies have shown that Notch signaling is required in adult mice to prevent the spontaneous or premature differentiation of satellite cells and to maintain a muscle stem cell pool capable of repairing muscle damage (Bjornson et al., 2012; Fukada et al., 2011; Lahmann et al., 2019; Mourikis et al., 2012)." In the third paragraph of the Discussion, we have highlighted the similarities between Poglut1-cKO and i-cKO phenotypes and the phenotypes observed in "animals with germline or conditional loss of various Notch pathway components (Bjornson et al., 2012; Fukada et al., 2011; Lahmann et al., 2019; Mourikis et al., 2012; Schuster-Gossler et al., 2007; Vasyutina et al., 2007)".

        2) Figure 1: NMJ Deficits - Pre- or Postsynaptic? The authors describe the mutant synaptic vesicles as showing a significantly reduced evoked neurotransmitter release (quantal content) compared to controls. This phrasing raises the question: are motor neurons mutated in these animals? It should be clarified why the synaptic vesicles are referred to as "mutant." To my knowledge, Pax7Cre does not recombine in motor neurons, and this discrepancy needs to be addressed. The text should be rephrased to accurately reflect the origins of the observed deficits.

      • We are not aware of any reports on recombination in motor neurons by the Pax-Cre line used in our study and had implied this in the initial submission in the following sentence in Discussion: "Therefore, even if agrin is indeed glycosylated by POGLUT1, loss of Poglut1 with Pax7-Cre is not expected to affect the glycosylation of agrin expressed by motoneurons." [please note that given the new data and text added to the revised manuscript, we removed the paragraph related to NMJ and agrin from the Discussion to reduce the manuscript length.] We agree that referring to synaptic vesicles as "mutant" can be misleading and have revised "mutant synaptic vesicles" to "in the NMJs of Poglut1-cKO LAL muscles". To address the discrepancy, we have added the following sentence to the Results section after describing a reduction in quantal content: "Since the Pax7-Cre strain used in our study is not reported to induce recombination in motor neurons (Murdoch et al., 2012), this presynaptic NMJ defect might be secondary to defects in postsynaptic NMJ abnormalities."

        3) Quantification of Myofibers with Internal Nuclei The statement, "We first quantified the ratio of myofibers with internal nuclei, which is an indication for recent fusion of myoblasts to myofibers," is not entirely accurate. Recent studies, such as PMID: 38569550, provide a more nuanced explanation of this phenomenon. The manuscript should reference this study and update the description to ensure it accurately reflects the current understanding of myofiber internal nuclei as markers of muscle pathology or regeneration.

      • We thank the reviewer for bringing this paper to our attention. In the revised manuscript, we have changed the above sentence to make it aligned with the observations of the paper mentioned by the reviewer: "We first quantified the ratio of myofibers with internal nuclei, recently reported to specifically result from the fusion of embryonic myogenic cells during limb myogenesis and also driven by myocyte-myocyte fusion in the first phase of postnatal muscle regeneration (Collins et al., 2024)." We also added the following sentence, which we believe makes our interpretation more accurate in light of Collins et al, 2024: "These data suggest enhanced differentiation of Poglut1-deficient progenitors into myocytes followed by continued myocyte-myocyte fusion and/or a delay in the peripheral migration of internal nuclei which normally occurs in the perinatal period (Collins et al., 2024)." This way, in the revised manuscript we do not link the presence of internal nuclei with recent fusion of myoblasts anymore. Finally, we also referred to Collins et al 2024 when describing the appearance of internal nuclei in injured muscles 5 days after injury (Figure 4A).

        4) Figure 3H: Cell Identification in Culture

        The use of PAX7+ MYOD− to identify quiescent cells in culture is not accurate. Instead, PAX7+ Ki67− should be used for this purpose. Similarly, PAX7− MYOD+ does not reliably identify differentiating cells. Instead, staining for MYOG should be used to ensure accuracy. The figure and accompanying text should be adjusted accordingly to reflect these updates.

      • To address this issue and a comment by reviewer 1, we performed PAX7/MYOD/Ki67 co-staining on cultured cells and quantified the percentage of each cell state based on the expression of these three markers as a more accurate measure of quiescent versus cycling satellite cells, as well as progenitors and precursor cells. The revised quantification and statistical analysis is presented in the revised Figure 3H. This quantification is represented similarly to the data shown in Gattazzo et al 2020. Based on the reviewer's comment and the results of these quantification, we have modified the Results section as follows (new text is underlined): "These observations indicate that loss of Poglut1 impairs the ability of muscle stem cells to remain in a quiescent state and suggest that the mutant myogenic progenitors might undergo premature differentiation." We then present the fusion index and myogenin staining data to conclude enhanced differentiation.

        5) Description of Satellite Cell Quiescence

        The statement, "About 2-3 weeks after birth, some of the PAX7+ cells generated by active proliferation of embryonic myogenic progenitors enter a quiescent state to generate adult satellite cells," is not entirely correct. The description should be updated based on the findings in PMID: 32763161, which provide a more accurate account of the transition of PAX7+ cells to quiescence and their role in generating adult satellite cells.

      • We thank the reviewer for bringing this paper to our attention. To address this issue and one of the concerns raised by Reviewer 1, we have made the following changes to the corresponding paragraph in the revised version: (A) We removed the statement highlighted by the reviewer. (B) We provided better justification for using P21 mice to assess muscle regeneration by quiescent satellite cells by adding the underlined sentences to this section: "To address this question, we induced muscle injury in mutant and control mice by injecting cardiotoxin (CTX) into TA muscles at P21 (Fig. 4A), an age at which we consistently obtain Poglut1-cKO animals without any dietary changes (Fig. 1E). Importantly, 51% of PAX7+ cells are reported to be in the quiescent state at P21 (Gattazzo et al., 2020) and the TA muscles of P21 mice exhibit a robust regenerative response to cardiotoxin-induced injury (Lepper et al., 2009)." We note that Gattazzo et al 2020 is PMID: 32763161, the paper with a more accurate account of satellite cell quiescence mentioned by the reviewer.

        6) Figure 5: Loss of Quiescence in Satellite Cells

        A hallmark phenotype of mutations in Notch signaling genesis the loss of quiescence in satellite cells when the mutation is introduced in the adult,. The authors should include data on Ki67 and MyoD expression in PAX7+ cells of mice with the Poglut1 mutation introduced in the adult by an analysis of the uninjured muscle. This would provide insight into the maintenance of quiescence in the mutant satellite cells.

      • Based on the reviewer's recommendation, we aimed to assess Ki67 and MyoD expression in PAX7⁺ cells of adult inducible-cKO (i-cKO) mice in the uninjured muscle. However, due to technical limitations including antibody species incompatibility and the number of available fluorescence channels, we were unable to perform simultaneous triple staining combined with tdTomato visualization on the same tissue sections. Instead, we utilized the Tomato reporter as a marker for PAX7⁺ cells, based on new data indicating that 93-97% of TOM⁺ cells co-express PAX7 (Figure 6E). We performed Ki67 and MyoD double staining and quantified the percentage of Tomato⁺ cells that expressed one or both of these markers. Our analysis showed that TOM⁺/Ki67⁻/MyoD⁻ (quiescent) satellite cells were significantly reduced in the i-cKO mice compared to controls, while the proportions of single-positive cells (Ki67⁺ or MyoD⁺) were increased (Figure 6F-G). These findings are consistent with loss of quiescence and increased activation of satellite cells upon loss of POGLUT1 in the adult mice.

      • During the revision, we performed additional experiments (not suggested by the reviewers) to better assess the role of Poglut1 in self-renewal of satellite cells upon injury. First, in a new cohort of i-cKO and control animals, we performed two rounds of tamoxifen injections but skipped the first round of injury and only induced CTX injury after the second round of recombination. Interestingly, analysis of 14 dpi muscles from these animals showed a full repair in both control and i-cKO mice (shown in revised Figure 5B). Second, we inspected the repaired control and i-cKO muscle after one round of recombination + injury for the presence of single tdTomato+ cells next to the repaired myofibers, which would represent the satellite cells formed after the repair. While single tdTomato+ cells were readily seen in the repaired muscle in control mice, we did not see any such cells next to the repaired muscle from i-cKO animals (shown in the revised Fig 5C, n = 4 animals per condition). Together, these new data provide strong evidence that loss of Poglut1 in adult muscle stem cells impairs their ability to return to quiescence and form new satellite cells upon repair of injured muscle.

        7) Figure 6A: Assay of Cleaved NOTCH1 Intracellular Domain

        The text describes that satellite cells isolated from Poglut1-cKO muscles showed a strong reduction in the level of cleaved (active) NOTCH1 intracellular domain compared to control cells. It is unclear whether these satellite cells were freshly isolated and directly assayed or cultured before the assay. Please specify this in the result section.

      • These satellite cells were freshly isolated from whole muscle, and the proteins were extracted directly from the isolated satellite cells without culturing them. This is now included in the Results section related to the revised Figure 7A.

        8) Figure 6: Notch Receptor Overexpression in C2C12 Cells The results section should explicitly explain that the Notch 1-3 receptors were overexpressed or transfected in the C2C12 cells. This detail is essential for understanding the experimental design.

      • Thank you. The C2C12 cells were transfected with mouse NOTCH receptors 1, 2, or 3 to overexpress each receptor. This is now included in the Results section as suggested.

        Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

        The manuscript by Cho et al. demonstrates that the muscular dystrophy phenotype associated with Poglut1 mutations is caused by a Notch signaling deficit in muscle stem cells. Although previous studies had suggested this connection, alternative mechanisms could not be excluded, as Poglut1 glycosylates a multitude of proteins. Overall, this is a thorough and careful analysis of Poglut1's role in muscle development and regeneration, providing valuable insights into the mechanisms underlying this rare muscle disease.

      Response: We sincerely thank the reviewer for her/his positive assessment of our manuscript and for the constructive comments.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      POGLUT1 is a key enzyme essential for the glycosylation and signaling activity of Notch receptors in C2C12 muscle cells. Elegant work from multiple groups has demonstrated the essential role of Notch signaling in maintaining the quiescence of muscle stem cells known as satellite cells. For instance, genetic deletion of Rbpj in tamoxifen-inducible conditional knockout mouse models causes ectopic expression of MyoD, diminished Pax7 expression, and precocious differentiation and fusion of quiescent satellite cells without entering the cell cycle. This is accompanied by the complete loss of tissue regeneration following repetitive muscle injuries. Hypomorphic mutations of POGLUT1 cause limb-girdle muscular dystrophy (type R21), accompanied by a significant reduction of Notch signaling and a decrease in the number of satellite cells in patient muscles.

      Despite the substantial body of evidence establishing the key function of the POGLUT1-Notch-Pax7/MyoD axis in satellite cells, the in vivo function of POGLUT1 in mice has not been studied. In the present study, Cho et al. carefully examined muscle development and regeneration using the POGLUT1 conditional knockout mouse model. The results, at both phenotypic and cellular/molecular levels, align perfectly with the previously established working model of the POGLUT1-Notch-Pax7/MyoD axis. Overall, the experiment is well-designed and executed, and the data are generally of high quality supporting the conclusions. No specific experimental issues was identified.

      Major suggestions include adding references in the discussion section: 1) studies of Rbpj cKO in mice (PMID: 22069237; 22045613), as genetic deletion of POGLUT1 using the same Pax7 driver showed almost identical phenotypes across all levels: phenotype, cellular fate changes, and gene expression changes; 2) studies of Notch-Rbpj targets (Fig. S1, PMID: 29795344), as this paper identified multiple genes encoding collagen V and VI as direct targets of Notch signaling in quiescent satellite cells. These findings are consistent with the authors' observations in Fig. 2e.

      • We thank the reviewer for the suggestion to add these highly relevant papers to the manuscript. 1) To address this comment and the specific point #1 raised by reviewer 2, we have highlighted the similarities between Poglut1-cKO and i-cKO phenotypes and the phenotypes observed in "animals with germline or conditional loss of various Notch pathway components (Bjornson et al., 2012; Fukada et al., 2011; Lahmann et al., 2019; Mourikis et al., 2012; Schuster-Gossler et al., 2007; Vasyutina et al., 2007)" in the Discussion. Mourikis et al 2012 and Bjornson et al 2012 are the two papers that the reviewer has referred to. 2) To address this point, we have added the following sentences to the Discussion: "Notch signaling has been shown to directly activate the transcription of several genes encoding collagen V and VI in muscle stem/progenitor cells, and collagen V expressed by satellite cells plays a key role in the niche to maintain satellite cell quiescence (Baghdadi et al., 2018). Therefore, ECM abnormalities caused by reduced Notch signaling might contribute to the loss of satellite cell quiescence in i-cKO animals as well." Baghdadi et al, 2018 is PMID: 29795344, to which the reviewer has referred.

        Minor suggestions: 1B: "P0" is an awkward term. Does it refer to newborn day 1 or a near full-term embryo?

      • By saying "P0", we are referring to the day the litters are born.

        Fig. 1C: The y-axis label includes an extra space.

      • The extra space is removed in the revised figure.

        Fig. 1D: Provide the N number for each genotype/diet group.

      • The N number has been added (now Figure 1E).

        Gene nomenclature: Use POGLUT1 exclusively for the human protein and Poglut1 for the mouse protein.

      • According to the guidelines of the International Committee for Standardized Genetic Nomenclature for Mice, protein symbols for mice should use all uppercase letters. Therefore, while the gene symbols for mouse and human are different in terms of uppercase versus lowercase usage, the protein symbols for mouse and human are usually identical. Please see the following webpage: https://www.informatics.jax.org/mgihome/nomen/gene.shtml#ps (accessed January 18, 2025).

        Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

        In the present study, Cho et al. carefully examined muscle development and regeneration using the POGLUT1 conditional knockout mouse model. The results, at both phenotypic and cellular/molecular levels, align perfectly with the known working model of the POGLUT1-Notch-Pax7/MyoD axis in satellite cells and muscle regeneration. Overall, the experiment is well-designed and executed, and the data are generally of high quality.

      Response: We sincerely thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our manuscript as well as the helpful suggestions.

    2. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Poglut1 mutations have been identified in an autosomal recessive form of muscular dystrophy. Poglut1 encodes an O-glucosyltransferase that modifies Notch receptors and ligands but also has other substrates. In mice, null mutations in Poglut1 are embryonic lethal, which has previously precluded the analysis of Poglut1's role in muscle development and regeneration using murine models. To address this limitation, the authors generated a conditional Poglut1 allele and introduced mutations using Pax7Cre or Pax7CreERT2. They characterize the phenotypic consequences of these mutations and further demonstrate that signaling through the Notch1, Notch2, and Notch3 receptors requires Poglut1 using the C2C12 cell culture model.

      Some aspects of the manuscript's description of muscle stem cell behavior and regeneration are not fully up to date. These points should be addressed before publication.

      Specific points

      1. Evidence Supporting Reduced Notch Signaling as the Cause of the Phenotype

      The comparison of muscle phenotypes observed in other Notch signaling mutations strongly supports the hypothesis that the phenotype is due to reduced Notch signaling. Relevant studies, such as those addressing development (PMID: 17194759, PMID: 17360543) and those focusing on adult muscle and regeneration (PMID: 21989910, PMID: 22069237, PMID: 22045613, PMID: 30862660) should be cited and discussed in the manuscript. Including these references will strengthen the argument and provide a broader context for the findings. 2. Figure 1: NMJ Deficits - Pre- or Postsynaptic?

      The authors describe the mutant synaptic vesicles as showing a significantly reduced evoked neurotransmitter release (quantal content) compared to controls. This phrasing raises the question: are motor neurons mutated in these animals? It should be clarified why the synaptic vesicles are referred to as "mutant." To my knowledge, Pax7Cre does not recombine in motor neurons, and this discrepancy needs to be addressed. The text should be rephrased to accurately reflect the origins of the observed deficits. 3. Quantification of Myofibers with Internal Nuclei

      The statement, "We first quantified the ratio of myofibers with internal nuclei, which is an indication for recent fusion of myoblasts to myofibers," is not entirely accurate. Recent studies, such as PMID: 38569550, provide a more nuanced explanation of this phenomenon. The manuscript should reference this study and update the description to ensure it accurately reflects the current understanding of myofiber internal nuclei as markers of muscle pathology or regeneration. 4. Figure 3H: Cell Identification in Culture

      The use of PAX7+ MYOD− to identify quiescent cells in culture is not accurate. Instead, PAX7+ Ki67− should be used for this purpose. Similarly, PAX7− MYOD+ does not reliably identify differentiating cells. Instead, staining for MYOG should be used to ensure accuracy. The figure and accompanying text should be adjusted accordingly to reflect these updates. 5. Description of Satellite Cell Quiescence

      The statement, "About 2-3 weeks after birth, some of the PAX7+ cells generated by active proliferation of embryonic myogenic progenitors enter a quiescent state to generate adult satellite cells," is not entirely correct. The description should be updated based on the findings in PMID: 32763161, which provide a more accurate account of the transition of PAX7+ cells to quiescence and their role in generating adult satellite cells. 6. Figure 5: Loss of Quiescence in Satellite Cells

      A hallmark phenotype of mutations in Notch signaling genesis the loss of quiescence in satellite cells when the mutation is introduced in the adult,. The authors should include data on Ki67 and MyoD expression in PAX7+ cells of mice with the Poglut1 mutation introduced in the adult by an analysis of the uninjured muscle. This would provide insight into the maintenance of quiescence in the mutant satellite cells. 7. Figure 6A: Assay of Cleaved NOTCH1 Intracellular Domain

      The text describes that satellite cells isolated from Poglut1-cKO muscles showed a strong reduction in the level of cleaved (active) NOTCH1 intracellular domain compared to control cells. It is unclear whether these satellite cells were freshly isolated and directly assayed or cultured before the assay. Please specify this in the result section. 8. Figure 6: Notch Receptor Overexpression in C2C12 Cells

      The results section should explicitly explain that the Notch 1-3 receptors were overexpressed or transfected in the C2C12 cells. This detail is essential for understanding the experimental design.

      Significance

      The manuscript by Cho et al. demonstrates that the muscular dystrophy phenotype associated with Poglut1 mutations is caused by a Notch signaling deficit in muscle stem cells. Although previous studies had suggested this connection, alternative mechanisms could not be excluded, as Poglut1 glycosylates a multitude of proteins. Overall, this is a thorough and careful analysis of Poglut1's role in muscle development and regeneration, providing valuable insights into the mechanisms underlying this rare muscle disease.

    3. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      The manuscript by Cho et al uses conditional and inducible conditional mouse models to characterize the function of protein O-glucosyltransferase 1 (POGLUT1), known to cause a type of Limb Girdle Muscular Dystrophy (LGMD-R21), in skeletal muscle satellite cells, differentiation and regeneration. The Authors find that conditional deletion of POGLUT1 in the myogenic progenitors leads to postnatal muscle defects and lethality by postnatal day 30 or so. Muscle progenitors lacking POGLUT1 undergo reduced proliferation and accelerated differentiation, possibly leading to impairment in muscle regeneration. This is supported by an inducible conditional deletion of POGLUT1 in adult satellite cells. Finally, in vitro experiments suggest that POGLUT1 is required for NOTCH pathway activation in myogenic cells and that POGLUT1 could potentially glycosylate specific residues in NOTCH3.

      Major comments

      1. What is the control used in Figure 1B and other panels? The genotype should be clearly specified instead of saying controls, in all the figures. It will be easier to interpret the data if densitometry of the western blots is provided, normalized to GAPDH levels. Also, is there some POGLUT1 protein remaining in the satellite cells in the cKOs? Data should be shown for an adult time point also (P30 or later), in addition to P0 and P4, to see whether Poglut1 levels are reduced in adult stages in the muscle and satellite cells in the cKOs.
      2. In Figure 1C, can the tibia weight be normalized to total body weight instead of tibia length and analyzed? Similarly, can the grip strength measurements in Figure 1G be normalized to total body weight and represented? Grip strength measurements in neonates is tricky; the Authors should clearly explain how this was done. The NMJ defects can be characterized better, especially since the Authors discuss about Agrin in detail.
      3. What are the small myofibers seen at the corners of the larger myofibers at P21 in the cKOs in Figure 2E? What is the point that the Authors want to conclude from Figure 2C and D? Clearly, if there are fewer satellite cells, Pax7 transcript levels will decrease. In Figure 2D, how are the satellite cell samples normalized between control and cKOs; did they start with equal number of satellite cells or equal amount of satellite cell RNA between control and cKOs? In Figure 2F, representative images for cKOs should be shown? The conclusion from Figure 2F-G is unclear. Since the Authors claim that the weak laminin staining is resolved in the cKOs by P21, why is α-dystroglycan hypoglycosylation seen in the P21 muscle?
      4. Representative images should be shown as examples for all time points for both genotypes in Figure 3A. Figure 3H should be represented with statistically significant differences marked clearly. Have the Authors checked whether cell death contributes to the decrease in cultured satellite cells and Pax7+ cells in the cKOs in Figure 3F, G? Are the differences between the control and cKOs in fusion index and Myogenin expression (Figure 3J, K) statistically significant?
      5. Figure 4 has multiple problems in my opinion. First, P21 is too early a time point to be talking about regeneration, since satellite cells are just transitioning to become quiescent cells at this time (described in Lepper et al, Nature 2009). It is difficult to distinguish the regenerative and neonatal developmental roles of satellite cells in the experiment that the Authors have carried out. Another issue is that the Authors show a decrease in satellite cells in the cKOs; satellite cell function is clearly known to be required for regeneration. Therefore, there is not much novelty that the cKOs exhibit poor regenerative capability. The data shown in Figure 4B-E is more or less a repetition of what has been shown in Figures 2 and 3.
      6. In Figure 5C, D, have the Authors checked the Pax7+ cell numbers between the controls and the i-cKOs? Is the difference seen in 1X TAM due to preexisting reduction in satellite cells in the i-cKOs? What is the explanation by the Authors for the large number of Tomato+ fibers seen in the 2X TAM and 3X TAM uninjured muscle (Figure 3C, E)? Figure 5E is difficult to comprehend and should be represented in a clearer manner.
      7. Densitometry for Figure 6A should be included, since N1 ICD levels seem quite variable in the controls also. POGLUT1 expression and shRNA knockdown efficiency should be shown in Figure 6B. What is the correlation between the NOTCH3 glycosylation with reduced NOTCH pathway activation and satellite cell function? This should be clearly discussed. Why was the NOTCH3 glycosylation assay done in HEK293 cells?

      Significance

      Based on my expertise as a muscle and stem cell biologist, the manuscript is not clearly thought through, with not many novel inferences that one can draw from the data provided. While the manuscript could be informative to muscle biologists and stem cell investigators, several additional experiments are required to better characterize the phenotypes and provide meaningful conclusions from the study. The role of POGLUT1 in the muscle could be of great interest, especially in light of its role in LGMD-R21, as described by some of the Authors previously. Several pieces of data provided in the current manuscript are disjointed, with few connecting links, such as the NMJ characterization, the NOTCH glycosylation data and the regeneration experiments done on P21 neonates. Better quantitation of data is required as well, as detailed below. Overall, the manuscript may be revised to address the specific comments and reconsidered at a suitable journal.

    1. NOTE D'INFORMATION

      Objet : Examen des modalités de contrôle et de prévention des violences dans les établissements scolaires - Audition de représentants du Ministère de l'Éducation Nationale, de l'Enseignement Supérieur et de la Recherche.

      • Date : [Insérer la date de l'audition - non précisée dans l'extrait]

      • Source : Extraits de "🔴 L'éducation nationale face aux violences dans les établissements scolaires" (Transcription d'une audition parlementaire).

      Résumé Exécutif :

      • Cette audition parlementaire a réuni des représentants de plusieurs directions du ministère de l'Éducation Nationale pour aborder les enjeux du contrôle et de la prévention des violences en milieu scolaire, avec une attention particulière portée aux établissements privés sous contrat.

      Les discussions ont mis en lumière la complexité de la chaîne de signalement et de traitement des violences, le rôle crucial mais perfectible de l'inspection (académique et générale), les défis liés au contrôle des établissements privés sous contrat (notamment en termes de moyens et de cadre juridique), et les procédures de suivi des violences commises par les personnels.

      La question de la laïcité et du dialogue avec le Secrétariat Général de l'Enseignement Catholique (SGEC) a également été soulevée.

      Les représentants du ministère ont exprimé leur bouleversement face aux témoignages de victimes et leur volonté d'améliorer les procédures existantes.

      Thèmes Principaux :

      • Organisation du Ministère et Partage des Responsabilités : Clarification des rôles de la DGESCO (pédagogie, éducation, protection de l'enfance), DGRH (gestion RH public), DAF (finances, réglementaire, RH privé), Direction des Affaires Juridiques (DAJ) et du Haut Fonctionnaire de Défense et de Sécurité (HFDS) dans le traitement des signalements et la prévention des violences.

      • Procédure de Signalement des Violences : Description de la chaîne de signalement depuis le chef d'établissement/directeur d'école (premières mesures, signalement au procureur/CRIIP, numéro harcèlement) jusqu'au niveau départemental (DSDEN/Rectorat) et national (bureau de la veille et de l'alerte du HFDS). Utilisation de l'application "fait établissement".

      • Rôle et Méthodes de l'Inspection : Examen des critères de déclenchement des inspections (académique vs. générale), des méthodes d'entretien (panel représentatif, appel à témoins, entretiens hors établissement), de l'analyse et de la restitution des témoignages. Illustration avec l'inspection du collège Stanislas.

      • Contrôle des Établissements Privés Sous Contrat : Présentation du plan de contrôle, des moyens alloués (ETP), des défis liés à son déploiement (notamment l'utilisation des ETP, l'élaboration d'un guide de contrôle, les discussions sur le périmètre du contrôle - vie scolaire, pastorale).

      • Dialogue avec les Réseaux d'Établissements Privés : Questionnement sur la base juridique et la profondeur du dialogue entre le ministère et les têtes de réseau (en particulier le SGEC), ainsi que sur les enjeux de laïcité soulevés par ce dialogue.

      • Suivi des Violences Commises par les Personnels : Présentation des statistiques disponibles (via l'application "fait établissement" et les enquêtes disciplinaires de la DGAFP) concernant les violences (sexuelles, physiques, verbales, moeurs) impliquant des personnels de l'enseignement public. Difficulté à centraliser et à suivre les suites judiciaires et administratives pour tous les cas.

      Articulation des Procédures

      Administratives/Disciplinaires et Judiciaires : Discussion sur l'indépendance des procédures, la prise de mesures conservatoires (suspension), et les délais liés à l'attente des décisions judiciaires. Difficulté de communication fluide entre le ministère et les parquets. * Prévention des Violences : Abord des outils et des programmes de prévention, notamment le programme d'éducation à la vie affective et sexuelle (EVARS), la formation des personnels (enseignants, sociaux, santé), et les dispositifs de recueil de la parole des élèves.

      Idées et Faits Importants / Citations :

      • Bouleversement face aux témoignages de victimes : La DGESCO, au nom du ministère, exprime un profond bouleversement face aux témoignages des associations de victimes, soulignant la gravité des faits révélés. Elle appelle à un "examen profond et critique de nos procédures".

      • "nous avons été profondément bouleversés par ces témoignages et nous voulons bien sûr exprimer tout notre soutien aux victimes et aux associations de de victimes Euh la gravité des faits révélés

      On conduit la ministre à annoncer un certain nombre d'actions sans attendre sur lesquelles nous pourrons également revenir à la fois des actions pour faciliter le recueil de la parole le traitement des signalements et euh le renforcement des contrôles

      En tout état de cause même si bien sûr il est il s'agit de responsabilité d'abord individuelle d'agresseur de d'enfants qu'il conviendra de déterminer et autant que c'est possible de poursuivre Euh et s'il ne faut pas substituer la responsabilité de de l'État à celle de de des agresseurs de ou des de ceux qui ont commis des crimes et des délits notre administration considère que la gravité des des faits révélés exige de nous tous un examen profond et critique de nos procédures de ce qui fonctionne de ce qui ne fonctionne pas..." (DGESCO)

      • Chaîne de Signalement : La responsabilité première incombe au chef d'établissement/directeur d'école, qui doit prendre des mesures immédiates de protection et signaler les faits via l'application "fait établissement". Les services départementaux et académiques apportent leur soutien (psychologues, équipes de sécurité) et peuvent signaler les cas graves au ministère.

      • "La chaîne de signalement au ministère elle est elle relève donc du services du haut fonctionnaire de défense et de sécurité Euh c'est en cas de d'alerte d'un d'un personnel sur une situation de violence le la responsabilité première c'est celle du chef d'établissement du directeur d'école qui ont la responsabilité générale d'assurer la sécurité des personnes au sein euh de leur de leurs établissement Et donc en cas de dès qu'ils sont saisis de ce type de signalement ou d'alerte ils doivent d'abord prendre les premières mesures de protection des victimes..." (HFDS adjoint)

      • Application "fait établissement" : Outil de recueil rapide et structuré des signalements, rappelant les étapes indispensables (saisine du procureur, CRIIP). Permet la transmission instantanée des faits graves (niveau 2 et 3) aux niveaux supérieurs.

      • "signaler immédiatement les faits via une application qui s'appelle l'application fait établissement qui permet plusieurs choses qui permet d'abord un recueil rapide et facilité du signalement avec un système de case à cocher donc permet de structurer la façon dont le signalement est rédigé la façon dont il est dont il est transmis qui permet aussi de rappeler quelques étapes indispensables quelques réflexes à avoir" (HFDS adjoint)

      • Inspection de Stanislas : L'inspection générale a mené une inspection approfondie suite à des articles de presse sur un "climat homophobe systémique". Le rapport a conduit à un article 40 contre un parent et a mis en garde l'établissement sur un "climat très fortement genré" et des inégalités de traitement, demandant une révision du règlement intérieur. Cependant, la DGESCO confirme qu'il n'y a pas eu de conclusion à une "homophobie systémique" ou "institutionnelle" dans les témoignages recueillis par les inspecteurs, malgré la lecture de PV d'audition par les parlementaires semblant contredire cette affirmation et faisant état de multiples témoignages d'homophobie.

      • "Nous n'avons extrait aucun élément caractérisé qui permettait de dire que l'établissement avait un comportement homophobe." (DGESCO, citant sa déclaration antérieure) "je rappelez que page 14 dans le rapport il en est question et que dans ce dans cette l'analyse qui a été faite par les inspecteurs des généraux dont je rappelle qu'ils travaillent collégialement et qu'ils sont ensuite revus par ce que nous appelons entre nous un référent hein qui travaille avec eux pour essayer d'expliciter et de mettre au jour l'ensemble des des analyses ou des conclusions qu'ils peuvent tirer de ces témoignages dans ce travail conjoint et collégial Il a été considéré que dans la relation quiit l'élève au préfet on nétait pas en mesure de de savoir..." (DGESCO, tentant d'expliquer l'analyse des inspecteurs)

      • Méthodes d'Inspection et Recueil de la Parole : L'inspection générale dispose d'un "Vademecum" et les inspecteurs sont formés à l'enquête administrative et au recueil de la parole, y compris des mineurs (accompagnement possible). Le témoin peut relire et corriger son témoignage. Les inspecteurs travaillent en équipe pour croiser les témoignages et établir une analyse collégiale.

      • "Les les enquêtes administratives ont fait l'objet d'un vader Mécom euh qui est un guide de l'inspection de de l'enquête administrative à destination de l'ensemble des inspecteurs généraux qui sont eux-mêmes formés à l'enquête administrative... Ils sont formés au recueil de la parole parce que vous avez raison de le dire C'est une des grosses difficultés d'arriver à libérer la parole d'un élève" (DGESCO)

      • Plan de Contrôle des Établissements Privés Sous Contrat : Un plan de contrôle est en cours d'élaboration pour systématiser les contrôles, qui étaient auparavant rares et souvent limités aux signalements. Un guide de contrôle a été élaboré. 60 ETP ont été alloués mais ont été largement utilisés pour le contrôle des établissements hors contrat et de l'instruction en famille.

      • "en terme de contrôle des établissements privés sous contrat euh en dehors de la méthodologie de de l'inspection générale il y avait peu de précédents peu de méthodes et peu de formations sur le sujet et que les académies étaient très demandeuses d'avoir un cadre qui rappelle les textes les objectifs et les spécificités de l'enseignement privé" (DAF) "Les académies avaient bien recruté les renforts mais elle les avait essentiellement utilisé euh à purer en quelque sorte le stock de contrôle qu'elle devait encore faire sur le hors contrat et sur l'instruction en famille" (DAF)

      • Dialogue avec le SGEC sur le Plan de Contrôle : La DAF a recommandé un échange sur les principes du plan de contrôle, mais pas une coconstruction. Cependant, la note de la ministre prévoit une présentation du plan de contrôle aux instances de dialogue locales incluant les représentants de l'enseignement catholique. Ce dialogue a soulevé des incompréhensions du SGEC sur le champ de contrôle (vie scolaire) et la nature des enseignements religieux (obligatoire vs. facultatif).

      • "Ne pas coprogrammer construire les contrôles avec ceux qui vont être contrôlés ça me paraît en effet de l'ordre de l'évidence" (Rapporteur) "Le dialogue avec LeGEC a a relevé un certain nombre d'incompréhensions de sa part sur le contenu du guide sur deux points qu'il nous avait signalé comme étant extrêmement important pour lui Le point de notre de la capacité juridique de l'État à étendre son contrôle sur la vie scolaire... Et le deuxième sujet c'était le sujet de la catéchèse de la pastorale et de l'instruction de la des enseignements de culture religieuse" (DAF)

      • Base Juridique du Dialogue avec le SGEC : Le dialogue avec le SGEC n'est pas prévu par la loi mais constitue une pratique facilitant l'échange d'informations et la fixation de priorités, bien que n'impliquant pas un partage de compétences.

      • "Non non effectivement il n'apparaît pas dans les textes Après il y a pas besoin d'une loi pour dialoguer C'est quelque part heureux Euh mais le le dialogue est d'ailleurs pas du tout institutionnalisé et ce n'est pas du tout comme ça a été très bien expliqué une forme de négociation ou de concertation institutionnelle prévue par les textes C'est simplement une pratique" (DAJ) "Je crois pas qu'on ait jamais interprété l'article 2 la loi 1905 comme interdisant tout dialogue avec le culte Donc je je crois qu'il y a pas de tout ce sujet au regard de cette disposition là" (DAJ)

      • Statistiques sur les Violences Impliquant les Personnels (Enseignement Public) : En 2023-2024, 1198 faits mettant en cause des personnels ont été recensés via "fait établissement", se décomposant en 24% de violences sexuelles (280 cas), 38% de violences physiques (461 cas) et 38% de violences verbales (457 cas). Les données sur les suites judiciaires ne sont pas centralisées au niveau national. Les données sur les sanctions disciplinaires sont disponibles via une enquête annuelle pour la fonction publique (chiffres 2021-2023 fournis pour les trois catégories pertinentes).

      • "Pour la précédente année scolaire oui c'est environ 2000 Ça c'est des chiffres qu'on pourra vous donner dans le cadre du questionnement On en a euh les violences mettant en cause des personnels en 2023-2024 par le biais de cette application fait établissement on en a recensé pardon 1198 1200 qui se décompose en 24 % de violence sexuelle ça fait 280 38 % de violence physique 461 et 38 % de violence verbale 457" (HFDS adjoint)

      • Suivi des Mesures Disciplinaires : Les autorités académiques sont compétentes pour les mesures conservatoires et les sanctions disciplinaires (pour les cas moins graves). La DGRH intervient pour les sanctions les plus élevées (groupe 3 et 4) et assure un suivi des situations transmises par les académies suite à une circulaire de 2016. Un suivi des sanctions disciplinaires prises dans l'enseignement public est effectué.

      • "La première c'est que cette circulaire nous demande d'apporter un regard croisé entre l'académie et le ministère pour pouvoir juger du bon quantum de sanction qui va être donc infligé au personnel concerné Et ensuite cette circulaire impose effectivement également au services académique de transmettre expost l'ensemble des dossiers au ministère pour en assurer le suivi" (DGRH)

      • Retrait de Contrat d'Association : Le code de l'éducation prévoit la fin du contrat en cas de "manquement grave au pluriel". Le régime juridique est peu éclairé par la jurisprudence. Deux seuls cas récents de rupture de contrat (Averroès, Al-Kindi) ont été cités.

      • "S'agissant euh du privé sous-contrat le le code de l'éducation prévoit que il peut être mis fin au contrat en cas de manquement grave au pluriel" (DAJ) "les seules retraites de contrat sont les retraits de contrat de d'Averos et de d'Alkind à ce stade" (DAF)

      • Élargissement de "fait établissement" au Privé Sous Contrat : Le projet d'étendre l'application "fait établissement" aux établissements privés sous contrat est ancien (discussions depuis 2019-2020) mais la décision récente de la ministre d'État vise à le rendre obligatoire par décret, nécessitant une modification du droit. Les discussions antérieures avec le SGEC reposaient sur le volontariat.

      • "l'annonce de l'extension de fait établissement au l'enseignement privé sous contrat avait été officialisé dans un un plan d'avril 2024 Donc euh nous nous y avons travaillé durant toute l'année 2024 à partir du mois de janvier jusqu'au mois de novembre avec euh des contact avec euh le ZGEC" (HFDS adjoint) "Ce que la ministre d'État a décidé c'est de changer le droit euh pour faire que fait établissement soit euh opposable euh et obligatoirement utilisé par l'ensemble des établissements Ça c'est très important parce que comme on le disait en début de l'audition nous avons que des remontées très partielles les des des signalements venant des établissements privés sous contrat pour cette raison parce que ils ne sont pas outillés de la même façon que les établissements publics Alors je revenir sur cette chronologie pardon moi je dispose du d'une note qui est commandée à la Dage en 2019 et qui porte un premier regard sur la possibilité juridique donc d'étendre l'application fait établissement aux établissements privés sous contrat bien antérieur à à l'année 2024 que vous avez mentionné..." (Rapporteur)

      • Prévention et Éducation à la Sexualité : Le programme EVARS s'inscrit dans un plan plus large de protection de l'enfance. Des formations pour les enseignants et les personnels sociaux/santé sont prévues pour le repérage et le signalement des élèves victimes. Le recueil de la parole est crucial, avec un renvoi aux professionnels (assistants sociaux, services sociaux en faveur de l'enfant).

      • "D'abord dire qu'il s'inscrit dans un plan plus large hein euh de protection de l'enfance euh dans lequel il y a déjà euh une page euh réservée sur Éduscol à l'ensemble des situations où euh la le recueil de la parole peut être peut être un élément à la fois euh d'ailleurs euh de professionnalisation des enseignants et puis un point de vigilance" (DGESCO) "Donc l'enseignant est là pour relever le signalement qui lui a été fait et ensuite il travaille avec notamment le service social en faveur de l'enfant pour prendre en compte cette parole désigner les suites qu'il doit qui doivent lui être données et en faire le signalement à la fois à son chef d'établissement et ensuite à son au directeur académique des services de l'éducation nationale" (DGESCO)

      Points de Discussion et Défis Identifiés :

      • La capacité du ministère à centraliser et à suivre de manière exhaustive les suites (administratives, disciplinaires, judiciaires) de tous les signalements de violence impliquant des personnels, en particulier dans l'enseignement privé sous contrat où le suivi est moins centralisé.

      • Les délais dans l'élaboration et la mise en œuvre des outils de contrôle et de signalement (ex: "fait établissement" étendu au privé sous contrat).

      • L'hétérogénéité des pratiques de contrôle entre académies.

      • L'interprétation de la gravité des faits et son lien avec les décisions de sanction (retrait de contrat, procédure disciplinaire).

      • Le positionnement des chefs d'établissement/directeurs d'école comme point d'entrée unique pour les signalements via "fait établissement" et le risque potentiel de frein à la libération de la parole ou de biais dans le signalement.

      • La question de la laïcité et la pertinence du dialogue approfondi avec les têtes de réseau confessionnelles dans l'élaboration de politiques de contrôle.

      • La nécessité de renforcer les dispositifs de recueil de la parole des élèves, en particulier dans le cadre de programmes comme l'EVARS.

      Conclusion (du document source) :

      • L'audition a mis en évidence la complexité des enjeux liés à la lutte contre les violences en milieu scolaire et au contrôle des établissements.

      Les efforts pour améliorer les procédures et les outils sont en cours, mais des défis importants subsistent, notamment en matière de centralisation du suivi, de déploiement des moyens de contrôle, et de clarification des rôles et des responsabilités.

      Le dialogue avec les différents acteurs, y compris les établissements privés, est jugé nécessaire, mais son cadre et ses implications juridiques nécessitent une attention particulière. La commission d'enquête poursuivra ses travaux pour approfondir ces questions.

    1. NOTE DE SYNTHÈSE – AUDITION SUR LES VIOLENCES SCOLAIRES DANS LES ÉTABLISSEMENTS RELEVANT DES MINISTÈRES DE L'AGRICULTURE ET DES ARMÉES

      • Date de l'audition : (Non spécifiée, mais la référence à septembre 2024 et octobre 2024 suggère fin 2024) Instance d'audition : Commission d'enquête de l'Assemblée nationale sur les violences en milieu scolaire. Personnes auditionnées : Représentants du Ministère de l'Agriculture et de la Souveraineté Alimentaire et du Ministère des Armées.

      I. Introduction et Cadre de l'Audition

      • L'audition vise à comprendre les mesures prises par les établissements relevant des ministères de l'Agriculture et des Armées pour assurer le bien-être des élèves et lutter contre toutes les formes de violence.

      Les auditions se déroulent dans le cadre d'un travail d'enquête, imposant aux personnes auditionnées de prêter serment. L'audition est diffusée en direct et fera l'objet d'un compte-rendu écrit.

      II. Établissements et Effectifs

      • Ministère de l'Agriculture et de la Souveraineté Alimentaire :
      • Forme à environ 200 métiers (agriculture, environnement/territoire, services).
      • Accueille 217 000 "apprenants" (élèves, étudiants, apprentis) de la 4ème aux études supérieures (écoles d'ingénieurs, écoles vétérinaires).
      • L'enseignement technique agricole concerne 201 160 élèves et apprentis en 2024-2025.
      • Répartition public/privé sous contrat :
      • 220 lycées publics (44% des effectifs, > 88 000 apprenants).
      • 579 établissements privés sous contrat (56% des effectifs, 112 000 apprenants) relevant de trois fédérations (CNEAP, UNREP, Maisons Familiales et Rurales).
      • Répartition par niveau : 4ème/3ème (21%), Lycée (70%), Supérieur (10%).
      • Particularité forte : 52% des élèves sont en internat.
      • Indice de positionnement social (IPS) : 4 à 5 points inférieur à l'Éducation Nationale, mais taux de réussite supérieurs sur les mêmes niveaux de diplôme.
      • Part des filles : 44% (total), 50,5% (voie scolaire), 47% (public), 53% (privé).
      • Effectifs enseignants/cadres/agents (sur emplois publics ou de droits publics) : 12 307 enseignants, 1120 cadres administratifs, 2000 agents (public uniquement).
      • Ministère des Armées :
      • Armée de Terre : Quatre lycées militaires (La Flèche, Saint-Cyr l'École, Autun, Aix-en-Provence).
      • 3290 élèves (rentrée 2024).
      • 273 militaires d'encadrement, 303 personnels de direction/enseignants détachés de l'Éducation Nationale, 175 ETP surveillants contractuels.
      • Niveaux : Collège (Autun uniquement), Lycée, CPGE, BTS Cyber (Saint-Cyr l'École).
      • Norme : Régime d'internat pour tous les élèves.
      • Féminisation : < 40% (secondaire), ~20% (post-bac).
      • Recrutement :
      • Aide à la famille (collège/lycée) : Pour les contraintes de la vie militaire, logique de droit et quotas (Groupes 1, 2, 3 - Pupilles/enfants de militaires, enfants de fonctionnaires, enfants boursiers). Minimum 70% d'élèves du Groupe 1.
      • Aide au recrutement (CPES, BTS, CPGE) : Pour les futures carrières militaires, basé sur le mérite scolaire (via Parcoursup).
      • Marine Nationale : L'unique lycée naval (Brest).
      • 400 élèves (dont 60 en demi-pension en secondaire - internat obligatoire en prépa).
      • Structure organisationnelle : Proviseur du lycée et un Chef de Corps (forme de double tutelle).
      • Situation géographique : Au sein d'un campus marine (avec école de Maistrance, école des Mousses).
      • Encadrement : 27 militaires, une vingtaine de surveillants, 39 détachés de l'Éducation Nationale.
      • Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace : L'unique école des pupilles de l'air (Grenoble).
      • Double vocation : Aide à la famille (vocation sociale marquée - 20% boursiers, 51 orphelins/pupilles de la nation) et aide au recrutement.
      • 766 élèves (250 collège, 390 lycée, 126 étudiants en prépa, dont 18 en CPES).
      • Offre de formation : Généraliste (80%), technologique STMG (10%), professionnel (10% - métiers de la sécurité). Cité scolaire complète.
      • Encadrement : 140 militaires (dont 60 pour l'encadrement de proximité/moniteurs de sport), 90 civils (dont 66 enseignants de l'Éducation Nationale, CPE, adjoints, etc.).
      • III. Organisation des Contrôles et Inspections
      • Point commun et Spécificité de l'Internat : Tous les établissements ont une part très importante, voire totale, d'élèves internes, ce qui est un sujet majeur de préoccupation pour la commission d'enquête, car les internes sont les plus exposés à de potentielles agressions, notamment sexuelles.
      • Ministère de l'Agriculture :
      • Inspection de l'enseignement agricole : 75 inspecteurs pour 800 établissements et 15 000 agents. Missions : contrôle, évaluation, formation, expertise, appui, accompagnement.
      • Contrôles systématiques annuels : Suivi des établissements publics (171), équipes de direction, finances.
      • Appui aux établissements : Missions d'expertise à la demande des autorités (73 à 80 par an).
      • Contrôle pédagogique des enseignants : 10% des enseignants visités annuellement.
      • Évaluation des établissements : 20% des établissements publics, CNEAP et UNREP évalués chaque année (visite conjointe inspecteurs/personnalités qualifiées). Ces missions d'évaluation incluent systématiquement la visite des internats et des entretiens avec les CPE, voire les élèves, pour détecter d'éventuelles anomalies ou signaux faibles.
      • Contrôle de la mise en œuvre du contrat d'association (MFR) : Moins fréquent (7 en 2023-2024, 4 programmées en 2024-2025 sur 361 établissements).
      • Enquêtes administratives : Rares (4 en deux ans), à la demande d'autorité pour évaluer une situation ciblée, pas des inspections administratives globales.
      • Distinction public/privé sous contrat : Le taux et le type de contrôle sont différents selon que l'établissement est public, privé temps plein (CNEAP, UNREP) ou MFR. L'objectif est d'augmenter le taux de contrôle, notamment pour les MFR.
      • Ministère des Armées :
      • Contrôle exclusivement de la responsabilité du ministère de tutelle.
      • Deux formes principales :Inspections : Inspection Générale des Armées, États-majors de zone de défense, Inspection de l'Armée de Terre, inspections d'armée spécifiques (Marine, Air). Audit externe (Cour des Comptes).
      • Audits : (Ex: Cour des Comptes sur les VSS).
      • Fréquence : Les lycées font l'objet d'un contrôle très regardé. Le Prytanée National Militaire a vu 6 contrôles/inspections sur 24-25. Inspections générales tous les 2 ou 3 ans dans les établissements militaires.
      • Objet des contrôles : Outre le corpus réglementaire et le bon fonctionnement organisationnel, les inspections s'intéressent essentiellement à la vie scolaire. Inspections thématiques sur la "qualité scolaire et éducative".
      • Base doctrinale : Plan d'excellence comportementale (2018), documents spécifiques sur les VSS (2025), guide ministériel disciplinaire VSS, guide pratique référents mixité égalité (2023), guide relatif à la discipline, violentomètre (2024), note mixité. Plans d'action des Chefs de Corps, note prévention harcèlement, guide du chef de section.
      • Modalités d'inspection : Tables rondes avec tous les niveaux scolaires (4 demi-journées). Elles abordent spécifiquement les aspects de violence. Rencontre avec les élèves sans les cadres systématisée.
      • Enquêtes de commandement : Possibilité de déclencher des enquêtes ciblées en cas de dysfonctionnement ou problème de discipline/violence. Peuvent être menées en interne au lycée ou confiées à l'Inspection de l'Armée de Terre si la situation le dépasse.
      • Particularité de la double tutelle (Marine, Air) : Proviseur (responsabilité pédagogique) et Chef de Corps (gestion de l'établissement comme une base, cohésion, bien-être des élèves). L'encadrement militaire gère l'internat et l'accompagnement. L'Éducation Nationale applique ses propres méthodes de contrôle des CPE.
      • IV. Lutte contre les Violences et Libération de la Parole
      • Ministère de l'Agriculture :
      • Plan de lutte : Le plan de lutte contre les discriminations et toute forme de violence existe depuis 2017 (première version). Il sera renouvelé en septembre 2024.
      • Enquêtes nationales quinquennales : Évaluation robuste des phénomènes de violence (première en 2015, renouvelée en 2022). Concerne jeunes et personnels. Comprend des moments d'expression et d'écoute accompagnés des jeunes pour dégager des indicateurs macros. Les cyberharcèlement est à la hausse. Les données 2017-2022 montrent une stabilité des indicateurs globaux.
      • Évaluation annuelle par les établissements volontaires : Sur la base des résultats nationaux, les établissements peuvent réaliser leurs propres évaluations pour identifier les signaux et mettre en place des actions spécifiques.
      • Dispositifs de libération de la parole :Médiation entre pairs.
      • Dispositif "Sentinelle et référent".
      • Partenariats avec associations (318, 119). Importance du suivi des informations collectées.
      • Médiation de l'enseignement agricole : Peut être saisie par tout enfant ou famille estimant ne pas être écouté. 21 saisines en 2024 sur des sujets de violences présumées.
      • Articulation avec le plan Borne ("Brison le silence") : Collaboration avec l'Éducation Nationale. Au moins deux dispositions seront intégrées : un décret étendant aux questions de climat scolaire les points de contrôle (y compris pour le privé sous contrat) et une mesure pour accroître le taux de contrôle (notamment MFR). Renforcement du corps d'inspection prévu.
      • Dispositif Fait Établissement : Un système équivalent existe sur le harcèlement (national, intégré, systématique depuis septembre 2024). Travail en cours pour étendre ce mécanisme à l'ensemble des faits de violence d'ici septembre 2025, en lien avec le décret modifié.
      • Ministère des Armées :
      • Tolérance Zéro : Appliquée pour les violences sexuelles et sexistes et le harcèlement. Sanctions sévères pour les élèves (contestées parfois par les parents en justice administrative).
      • Culture de l'article 40 : Considérée comme "bien en place" avec un objectif de transparence totale. Respect du droit et de la réglementation militaire (règlement propre à chaque lycée).
      • Engagement des familles et élèves : Lettres envoyées aux parents et élèves sur le comportement attendu.
      • Incitation au dépôt de plainte : Les familles sont encouragées à porter plainte en cas de délit.
      • Enquêtes de commandement : Déclenchées en cas de violence grave.
      • Sanctions des personnels encadrants : Peu nombreux (moins d'une dizaine sur les deux dernières années sur les 4 lycées militaires). Le niveau de gravité varie. Ces cas donnent lieu à une action judiciaire et/ou une action d'éloignement ou de mutation.
      • Priorité : Protéger la victime. Accompagnement psychologique, information des parents, suspension de l'auteur présumé envisagée.
      • Cellule Thémis : Existe depuis 2014, renforcée en mars 2024. Objectifs : libérer la parole, accompagner le commandement, prévention. Rôle renforcé sur le contrôle de l'application des procédures. Point de contact direct pour les victimes ne se sentant pas à l'aise avec leur encadrement de proximité. Thémis n'est pas le seul capteur d'information (référents mixité égalité, turnover de l'encadrement).
      • Exemple Armée de l'Air : Un cas signalé sur 22-23 (comportement inapproprié d'un encadrant). Parole libérée, encadrant exclu, sanctionné (30 jours d'arrêt), contrat rompu, affaire judiciarisée (article 40, en cours de traitement pour atteinte sexuelle - faute non caractérisée au niveau pénal à ce stade).
      • Échanges interministériels : Pas de descente d'information directe aux DRH sur le plan Brison le silence à ce stade. Les applicatifs ne sont pas les mêmes (pas de "Fait Établissement"). Échanges courants entre inspecteurs généraux, mais pas spécifiquement sur ce champ actuellement.
      • V. Points d'Attention et Sujets d'Amélioration
      • Disparité des contrôles : Reconnaissance d'une différence de taux et de type de contrôle, notamment pour les Maisons Familiales et Rurales relevant du Ministère de l'Agriculture. Volonté d'augmenter ce taux.
      • Articulation des dispositifs : Nécessité de parfaire l'intégration des systèmes d'information (comme le "Fait Établissement") pour avoir un suivi systématique et homogène des signalements de violence.
      • Libération de la parole en internat : La difficulté à connaître ce qui se passe en dehors des heures de cours (soirées, weekends) est reconnue. Les inspections utilisent les tables rondes pour tenter de briser le silence, mais reconnaissent que les élèves ne disent pas toujours tout. L'encadrement de proximité est essentiel pour regarder ces aspects au plus près.
      • Culture de l'article 40 : Bien que considérée comme en place dans les armées, la question de savoir si elle doit être encore développée est posée par la commission. L'action judiciaire est déclenchée en cas de suspicion/doute, parallèlement aux enquêtes internes et aux mesures de protection/éloignement.
      • Collaborations interministérielles : Les échanges existent mais semblent perfectibles, notamment sur le partage d'expertise et l'harmonisation des outils (comme les applicatifs de signalement).

      Conclusion Provisoire :

      • Les deux ministères présentent des organisations distinctes pour leurs établissements (agricoles et militaires), mais partagent des défis communs, particulièrement liés à la forte proportion d'élèves en internat et à la nécessité de prévenir et de traiter les violences, y compris celles commises par des adultes ayant autorité. Des dispositifs de contrôle, d'inspection et de libération de la parole sont en place, avec des plans spécifiques (Plan de lutte dans l'agriculture, Plan d'excellence comportementale, Thémis dans les armées). Cependant, les modes de contrôle et la fréquence des inspections varient, notamment dans l'enseignement agricole entre public et privé. L'articulation avec les initiatives nationales (comme le plan Brison le silence) est en cours d'élaboration. La "culture de l'article 40" et les enquêtes internes visent à assurer une réponse transparente et rapide face aux cas de violence dans les armées. L'audition met en lumière l'importance de l'encadrement de proximité et des points de contact multiples pour permettre aux victimes de s'exprimer.
    1. NOTE DE SYNTHÈSE : AUDITION DE LA DACG SUR LA POLITIQUE PÉNALE FACE AUX VIOLENCES SCOLAIRES

      Date :2025

      Source : Extraits de "🔴 Quelle politique pénale face aux violences scolaires ?

      Suivez l’audition de la DACG" Participants à l'audition (côté Ministère de la Justice) : Directrice adjointe des affaires criminelles et des grâces, accompagnée de Mme Anne Mao Mercier, adjointe à la chef du bureau de la politique pénale générale.

      Sujet : Examen de la politique pénale face aux violences commises par des adultes sur des élèves en milieu scolaire.

      1. Introduction et Cadre Général

      • L'audition porte sur un sujet d'une importance capitale pour le Ministère de la Justice : la lutte contre les violences commises sur les mineurs, en particulier en milieu scolaire.

      L'école est présentée comme un "sanctuaire" où de telles violences sont "inacceptables". Le Ministère de la Justice est fermement engagé dans ce combat, qui constitue une "priorité de politique pénale du gouvernement". Cette priorité est régulièrement rappelée dans les circulaires et dépêches adressées aux procureurs.

      • Citation clé : "l'école doit être un sanctuaire où on doit effectivement et bien euh développer la personnalité de de nos de nos jeunes jeunes enfants il est inacceptable effectivement que de telles violences puissent y être commises certains faits dramatiques nous obligent tout particulièrement"

      • Une circulaire importante du 28 mars 2023 est citée comme une circulaire cadre visant à élever la lutte contre les violences sur mineurs à un niveau d'engagement similaire à celui mis en œuvre pour les violences intrafamiliales (suite au Grenelle).

      Elle couvre l'ensemble du traitement des violences contre les mineurs, incluant les politiques de juridiction, les politiques partenariales et la politique pénale de fond.

      Toutes les violences sur mineurs sont concernées, avec une attention particulière pour celles commises en établissements scolaires.

      2. Renforcement de l'Arsenal Juridique

      Le Ministère de la Justice, via la Direction des affaires criminelles et des grâces (DACG), contribue activement à l'évolution normative en matière de lutte contre les violences sur mineurs.

      L'arsenal juridique est décrit comme "riche", bien que toujours susceptible d'amélioration.

      • Exemples d'enrichissements récents :Aggravation de la répression des violences sexuelles : Concerne toutes les victimes, mais particulièrement celles en milieu ou aux abords des établissements scolaires.
      • Loi du 21 avril 2021 : A supprimé la notion de consentement pour les relations sexuelles entre majeur et mineur.
      • Allongement de la durée de prescription : Travail législatif mené sur 35 ans pour favoriser la révélation des faits, même des années après. Le point de départ de la prescription a été retardé à la majorité et le délai considérablement allongé (jusqu'à 30 ans pour les crimes sexuels, 20 ans pour les agressions et atteintes sexuelles). La loi de 2021 a introduit la "prescription glissante".
      • Loi du 14 avril 2016 : Création d'un cadre plus étoffé (articles 11-2 et 706-47-4 du code de procédure pénale) pour régir la transmission d'informations entre l'autorité judiciaire et les administrations, en particulier l'Éducation Nationale. Ce dispositif d'information peut être facultatif ou obligatoire.

      3. Élaboration et Animation des Politiques Pénales

      La DACG est également en charge du développement et de l'animation des politiques pénales sur le sujet. De nombreuses circulaires et dépêches ont été diffusées pour guider l'action des procureurs.

      • Objectifs des circulaires :Favoriser la révélation des faits et la transmission des plaintes/dénonciations à l'autorité judiciaire.
      • Améliorer l'efficacité des enquêtes.
      • Garantir l'information, l'accompagnement et la protection des victimes tout au long du parcours judiciaire.
      • Donner des instructions claires sur les réponses pénales à apporter pour prévenir le renouvellement des faits et protéger les victimes.

      4. Renforcement des Partenariats, en Particulier avec l'Éducation Nationale

      Un axe fort de la politique pénale est le renforcement des partenariats entre l'autorité judiciaire et l'Éducation Nationale. L'article 40 du Code de procédure pénale, qui impose aux fonctionnaires de signaler tout crime ou délit dont ils ont connaissance, est un élément clé de ce partenariat.

      • Modalités du partenariat :Conventions : Conclusion de conventions entre les parquets et les établissements scolaires (publics, privés sous contrat). Une dépêche du 8 octobre 2021, faisant suite aux travaux de la CIASE, a invité les parquets à conclure des conventions avec les diocèses (avec un taux de signature de plus de 84% en octobre 2024). Une autre dépêche du 5 septembre 2023 (relative aux infractions en milieu scolaire) a invité à conclure des partenariats avec l'Éducation Nationale/établissements scolaires pour établir des circuits de signalement et des modalités d'échange (plus de 73% de conventions conclues en 2023, estimé à plus de 90% aujourd'hui).
      • Échanges et contacts directs : Notamment entre les référents éducation nationale (dans les parquets) et les référents justice (dans les académies). Cette pratique ancienne a été généralisée suite à une circulaire du 11 mars 2015. Les référents sont des points de contact essentiels pour faciliter l'obtention d'informations.
      • Bonnes pratiques : Attention portée aux réunions annuelles organisées par certains parquets avec les chefs d'établissement et leurs équipes. Ces rencontres permettent d'échanger sur les difficultés, de faire le point sur les circuits mis en place et d'améliorer les pratiques. La DACG souhaiterait généraliser ces réunions, bien qu'elles ne se tiennent pas dans tous les ressorts en raison de la charge de travail.

      5. Qualité du Traitement des Faits Dénoncés

      Au-delà de la transmission des signalements, la DACG met l'accent sur la qualité du traitement des faits dénoncés.

      • Gestion des faits prescrits : Malgré l'allongement des délais de prescription, de nombreuses plaintes portent sur des faits prescrits. Une dépêche du 26 février 2021 invite les procureurs à ouvrir systématiquement des enquêtes même si les faits semblent prescrits.
      • Objectifs de l'ouverture systématique d'enquêtes sur faits prescrits :S'assurer que les faits sont bien prescrits après étude approfondie.
      • Identifier d'autres victimes potentielles pour lesquelles les faits ne seraient pas prescrits.
      • Lutter contre le sentiment d'impunité.
      • Permettre à la victime d'être entendue et à l'auteur (même s'il ne peut être poursuivi) d'être entendu, ce qui peut être important pour la victime.
      • Effectuer des investigations pour s'assurer qu'il n'y a pas d'autres risques de commission d'faits sur d'autres personnes.
      • Délai de traitement et prise en charge des victimes : La DACG est attentive au délai de traitement dans les services d'enquête, à la qualité de l'accueil et de l'audition des victimes, ainsi qu'à la prise en charge pluridisciplinaire.
      • Traitement rapide des procédures : Idée de traiter rapidement les procédures à réception dans les juridictions, notamment dans le cadre de "filières de l'urgence", pour permettre des poursuites rapides (ex: comparution immédiate) et la mise en œuvre de mesures de sûreté (contrôle judiciaire, détention provisoire). L'action contre l'auteur est aussi une mesure de protection pour le mineur.
      • Classement sans suite : Le classement sans suite reste possible. La circulaire de mars 2023 insiste sur l'importance d'un examen attentif de la procédure avant classement et de la notification du classement aux victimes avec explication des motifs.

      6. Réponses Pénales et Suivi

      Les réponses pénales doivent être "rapides" et "fermes quand c'est nécessaire", en fonction de la nature des faits, de la gravité du préjudice et des antécédents de la personne mise en cause.

      • Peines spécifiques : Insistance sur certaines peines, comme l'interdiction d'exercer une activité professionnelle ou bénévole impliquant un contact habituel avec des mineurs (pouvant être obligatoire dans certains cas).
      • Inscription au FIGES : Essentielle pour le contrôle d'honorabilité des personnes recrutées par l'Éducation Nationale.
      • Retour d'information : Nécessité de veiller au retour d'informations à l'Éducation Nationale et à ceux ayant transmis les plaintes/dénonciations au parquet.

      7. Points de Discussion et Questions des Rapporteurs/Députés

      Plusieurs points spécifiques ont été abordés lors de l'échange :

      • Transmission de l'information à l'Éducation Nationale au moment du signalement : La loi de 2016 trouve un équilibre entre nécessité d'informer et présomption d'innocence/enquête. La transmission d'information intervient au moment de l'engagement des poursuites ou de la condamnation, pas nécessairement immédiatement au stade de l'enquête. Des échanges informels entre référents sont possibles mais pas systématiques. Le délai de transmission varie selon la complexité, le risque de réitération et la nécessité de protéger immédiatement la victime.
      • Protection de l'enfant en urgence : La préoccupation est essentielle pour les procureurs. En cas de danger, une saisine du conseil départemental (aide sociale à l'enfance) est possible pour envisager un placement. La diligence de l'enquête et le recours à des procédures rapides (filières d'urgence, comparution immédiate) permettent d'envisager la mise en place de mesures de sûreté pour protéger les victimes.
      • Uniformisation des référents : Présence de référents justice dans tous les parquets, mais la connaissance de leur existence dans toutes les académies n'est pas assurée.
      • Partage d'information : Le niveau de gravité/certitude pour le partage d'information n'est pas nécessairement uniformisé, bien que les textes (loi de 2016) fixent des critères obligatoires qui sont censés s'appliquer uniformément. L'article 11-2 laisse une souplesse (transmission facultative), mais les circulaires sensibilisent les procureurs à la nécessité de partager l'information dans le cadre des relations partenariales.
      • Réunions annuelles : Considérées comme une bonne pratique à généraliser (1er et 2nd degré, tous établissements). Elles ne se tiennent pas partout, mais les échanges existent (conventions, référents). La DACG n'a pas de vision consolidée de leur mise en place systématique ni des établissements invités (publics/privés). L'organisation est laissée à la main des parquets, avec des directives par circulaire. Des outils numériques sont en développement pour aider les magistrats et faciliter les échanges d'information, notamment pour ne pas "louper certaines obligations" de transmission.
      • Information du parquet sur les mesures disciplinaires/conservatoires de l'employeur : L'article 40 impose le signalement des crimes/délits, ce qui peut parfois inclure des informations sur les mesures disciplinaires. Cette information n'est pas toujours complète au départ mais peut être transmise ultérieurement via les échanges. Normalement, les conventions de partenariat peuvent inclure la transmission systématique de cette information. La DACG n'est pas certaine que cette information soit toujours effective dans la pratique mais la juge "toujours très intéressante d'avoir ce type d'information".
      • Recteurs/Inspecteurs sollicitant les parquets sur les procédures judiciaires : Normalement, si des poursuites pénales sont engagées contre du personnel en contact avec des mineurs (notamment pour les infractions visées par l'article 706-47-4), l'information doit être portée obligatoirement à la connaissance de l'Éducation Nationale par le parquet. Cette transmission est prévue par écrit, bien que des pratiques informelles (conversations téléphoniques) puissent exister.
      • Cas individuels (Notre Dame de Baram, Riomont, Lycée Bayen) : La directrice adjointe ne peut pas se prononcer sur des affaires individuelles, invoquant l'article 11 (seul le parquet peut communiquer) et son incompétence pour se prononcer sur des affaires spécifiques sans autorisation.
      • Avertissement avant poursuite (pratique ancienne) : Réponse concernant le cas de 1996 (Notre Dame de Baram) : Le procureur dispose de la liberté de classer ou d'engager des alternatives aux poursuites (comme l'avertissement solennel, qui n'existe plus sous cette forme). Les avertissements avant poursuite étaient réservés aux faits les moins graves. La circulaire de mars 2023 invite à relever le niveau de réponse pénale, en particulier face à la qualité de la personne mise en cause. L'avertissement avant poursuite est un classement qui peut être réexaminé en cas d'éléments nouveaux ou de récidive (principe de l'opportunité des poursuites). Il ne s'agit pas forcément d'une "mise en attente" mais d'un classement faute d'éléments suffisants à l'instant T pour poursuivre l'enquête ou engager des poursuites. En 1996, la loi de 2016 n'était pas adoptée, il est difficile de dire si l'information aurait dû être transmise. Dans le cadre actuel, s'il n'y a pas eu de poursuite, il n'y a pas de transmission obligatoire.
      • Décès de l'auteur (Lycée Bayen) : Le décès de l'auteur n'implique pas forcément un classement immédiat pour extinction de l'action publique ; la procédure peut être toujours en cours (auditions). La directrice adjointe ne peut toujours pas se prononcer.
      • Information des enseignants sur les procédures (différence CRIP/parquet, article 40, etc.) : Les conventions de partenariat devraient inclure des notices d'information à diffuser aux personnels de l'Éducation Nationale. La difficulté réside dans le fait de faire vivre ces conventions et de sensibiliser les magistrats. La bonne volonté ne suffit pas ; des "process, des moyens, des outils" sont nécessaires. Il est vrai que les magistrats (juges des enfants) sont saturés. L'information générale est normalement le but de ces conventions et de leurs annexes, à retravailler lors des réunions.
      • Signalement hors voie hiérarchique : Si un personnel signale des faits sans passer par la voie hiérarchique, c'est bien considéré comme un fait émanant potentiellement de l'Éducation Nationale.
      • Pourcentage de classements sans suite et de faits prescrits (violences sexuelles sur mineurs) : Les chiffres précis ne sont pas immédiatement disponibles mais peuvent être communiqués. Le taux de classement peut être "extrêmement décevant" mais est lié aux difficultés d'établir les faits (déperdition de preuves avec le temps, faits commis en huis clos).
      • Imprescriptibilité des crimes sexuels sur mineurs : La DACG n'y est pas favorable.
      • Arguments contre l'imprescriptibilité :Ne résoudrait pas forcément les problèmes liés à la déperdition de preuves et aux difficultés d'enquête dans des affaires anciennes.
      • Ne garantirait pas nécessairement que plus de victimes parlent (certaines pourraient être incitées à parler avant la date butoir actuelle).
      • Remettrait en cause la cohérence d'ensemble des délais de prescription du système répressif français.
      • Conseils pour déposer plainte rapidement : Il est préférable de s'adresser directement à un service d'enquête (commissariat/gendarmerie) plutôt qu'uniquement par courrier au procureur, pour gagner du temps. Il est conseillé de se faire accompagner par une association d'aide aux victimes pour être orienté et soutenu.
      • Plaintes sur faits prescrits et protection des jeunes : L'ouverture systématique d'enquêtes sur faits prescrits (dépêche de 2021) permet, outre les objectifs déjà cités (écoute de la victime, audition de l'auteur, lutte contre l'impunité), de rechercher d'autres victimes ou risques potentiels en investigant l'environnement de l'auteur. Le lien avec d'autres parquets est implicite via ces enquêtes qui peuvent révéler des faits commis ailleurs.
      • Association au plan "Brisons le silence, agissons ensemble" : Le Ministère de la Justice n'a pas été associé à l'élaboration de ce plan.

      8. Conclusion

      Beaucoup a été fait en matière de politique pénale et de renforcement de l'arsenal juridique pour lutter contre les violences sur mineurs, mais "beaucoup reste à faire".

      La DACG est attentive aux remontées du terrain et aux travaux de la commission d'enquête. Des efforts sont déployés pour renforcer les partenariats, améliorer le traitement des dossiers (même prescrits) et utiliser les outils numériques pour pallier les manques.

      Les défis persistent, notamment en termes de moyens pour les juridictions et d'uniformisation des pratiques à l'échelle nationale.

      La position sur l'imprescriptibilité est claire : elle n'est pas considérée comme une solution pertinente.

    1. Document de synthèse : Les nouveaux enjeux de la paternité et l'égalité parentale

      Ce document de synthèse examine les principaux thèmes et idées issus d'échanges entre journalistes, créateurs de podcasts et législateurs concernant les enjeux contemporains de la paternité en France, notamment à travers le prisme de l'égalité parentale et des droits des femmes.

      La discussion met en lumière les défis persistants en matière de partage des tâches, le rôle crucial des congés parentaux et l'importance d'une éducation qui valorise le "prendre soin" et les émotions.

      1. Le Constat de l'Inégalité et l'"Arnaque des Nouveaux Pères"

      Un thème central qui émerge est le décalage entre la perception que les pères ont de leur implication et la réalité statistique du partage des tâches parentales et domestiques.

      Stéphane Jourdin et Guillaume Daudin, co-auteurs de la bande dessinée "L'arnaque des nouveaux pères", soulignent cette dichotomie :

      "Pour nous il y a arnaque parce qu'il y a un delta entre c'est ce que vous venez de dire entre la perception qu'ils ont et l'affichage qu'ils en font… et qu'ils sont pas les seuls à faire… il y a un décalage entre cette perception cet affichage et la réalité des des statistiques euh froides presque métallique de l'INC..."

      Les chiffres de l'INSEE révèlent que malgré des avancées, la répartition des tâches reste très inégalitaire : les femmes effectuaient environ 80% des tâches domestiques et parentales en 1986, un chiffre qui n'est descendu qu'à 70% au début des années 2010.

      Les hommes tendent à prendre en charge les tâches plus gratifiantes, laissant les tâches ingrates aux femmes.

      Plusieurs "stratégies de défausse" sont identifiées chez les pères, notamment le père qui "vient en aide" sans organiser, le "feignant", l'"élogieux" ("tu fais ça si bien ma chérie"), ou celui qui a des "standards différents".

      L'arrivée de l'enfant exacerbe souvent cette inégalité en augmentant le volume global des tâches et en renforçant la répartition traditionnelle.

      2. Le Rôle Clé des Congés Parentaux : Paternité et Parental

      La discussion met en évidence l'importance cruciale des congés, notamment le congé paternité, pour favoriser un investissement égal des parents dès la naissance.

      Le système actuel (7 jours obligatoires, 28 jours possibles, peu rémunérés) est considéré comme un message clair qui relègue le père au rôle de "parent auxiliaire" ou "assistant".

      "Le message est très clair c'est-à-dire que le boulot du papa ça va être de retrouver le travail de retourner au boulot et que tout ce qui est avant bon bah il peut traîner dans le coin avoir une oreille qui traîne mais l'essentiel des de la transmission sur comment on s'occupe d'un d'un nouveau né va être adressé essentiellement à la mer..."

      Un congé égal pour les deux parents est fortement préconisé, avec une durée plus longue et une partie obligatoire significative.

      L'exemple de la Suède, où le père est encouragé à se retrouver seul avec l'enfant pendant plusieurs semaines ou mois, est cité comme un modèle incitatif qui change fondamentalement l'implication paternelle.

      Il existe un problème de transmission pour les pères, qui ne bénéficient pas de la même socialisation au "prendre soin" que les mères.

      Concernant le congé parental, sa faible utilisation par les hommes (0,8% contre 12% pour les femmes) est attribuée à sa très faible rémunération. Un projet de réforme envisagé (raccourcir sa durée à 4 mois par an mais mieux le rémunérer) est accueilli avec prudence.

      Il est souligné que toute évolution du congé parental sans prérequis paritaire sur les congés maternité et paternité pourrait renvoyer les femmes à la maison, particulièrement les femmes précaires.

      3. L'Adaptation du Monde du Travail et les Freins Structurels

      Le monde de l'entreprise est identifié comme un frein majeur à l'égalité parentale.

      L'organisation du travail reste pensée pour des hommes sans enfants ou qui ne s'en occupent pas.

      La conciliation vie professionnelle-vie familiale est rendue difficile par des horaires rigides, des réunions à des heures clés et une culture d'entreprise qui valorise la disponibilité totale.

      "Aujourd'hui quand vous avez un enfant de 3 mois l'entreprise attend autant de vous que quand vous en avez un de 20 les demandes sont pas du tout les mêmes quand vous revenez de congé paternel bah du jour au lendemain vous reprenez complètement le travail et du jour au lendemain vous avez les mêmes horaires les mêmes tâches et on attend les mêmes choses de vous..."

      Plusieurs leviers sont proposés pour favoriser un meilleur investissement des pères, notamment :

      Rendre la flexibilité obligatoire dans les entreprises : plages horaires aménageables, télétravail accessible, jours d'absence familiaux prévus dans les accords, sans dépendre du bon vouloir du manager.

      Former les managers : les aider à reconnaître la parentalité comme un enjeu de performance durable. Changer le regard social : combattre la pression sociale et le sentiment d'être moins fiable lorsqu'un père s'occupe de ses enfants.

      Agir au niveau des pouvoirs publics : montrer l'exemple dans la fonction publique et conditionner certains avantages fiscaux ou aides aux entreprises à des politiques familiales claires.

      La question de l'utilisation des congés enfants malades (seulement 20% pris par les hommes) illustre parfaitement cette pression sociale et structurelle.

      Il est suggéré d'inscrire dans le code du travail le "droit au respect de la vie de famille" sur le modèle du droit à la déconnexion, afin de sortir de la négociation individuelle.

      4. L'Accompagnement de l'Adolescence et la Santé Mentale

      La période de l'adolescence présente des enjeux spécifiques pour les parents et les enfants, notamment en matière de santé mentale.

      Les dispositifs d'accompagnement pour les parents d'adolescents sont jugés insuffisants. La question de la santé mentale des adolescents, particulièrement touchés par l'anxiété et la dépression, est une préoccupation majeure.

      Il est souligné l'urgence d'un parcours de soins en santé mentale mieux remboursé et accessible.

      Au-delà des soins directs aux adolescents, il est essentiel d'aider les parents à prendre conscience de l'importance de la santé mentale et à gérer les difficultés au sein de la cellule familiale.

      Un aspect novateur soulevé concerne l'impact de l'espace public et virtuel sur les adolescents.

      Le manque d'autonomie dans le monde réel (réduction drastique du périmètre de déplacement autonome) et l'exposition non régulée au monde virtuel (réseaux sociaux, masculinisme) sont identifiés comme des facteurs contribuant aux troubles de santé mentale et à la perpétuation de stéréotypes sexistes.

      "... on a complètement on disait on a trop légiféré par rapport à la responsabilité pénale des maires et et oui permet juste de dire je trouve que ce que vous là vous nous ouvrez un champ qu'on avait pas encore beaucoup exploré là mais la question de l'espace de des enfants et des et des adolescents dans l'espace public enfin comment l'accompagnement des parents c'est aussi ça c'est comment on a une géographie un espace public accueillant et qui comprend les besoins des parents et des des enfants donc je trouve ça vraiment passionnant..."

      Des pistes de politiques publiques sont évoquées, comme se positionner sur la régulation des réseaux sociaux (exemple australien d'un âge minimum), repenser l'aménagement urbain pour favoriser l'autonomie des enfants et des adolescents, et même interroger le droit de vote local pour redonner du pouvoir aux adolescents.

      5. L'Éducation pour l'Égalité : Famille, École et Représentations Culturelles

      L'éducation joue un rôle fondamental dans la construction d'une société plus égalitaire.

      L'exemple des cours d'"économie domestique" en Suède est cité comme une illustration d'une éducation concrète qui apprend aux garçons comme aux filles à maîtriser les tâches du quotidien et qui remet en question les inégalités persistantes.

      "... on a assisté à un cours qui s'appelle de mémoire MKCAP c'est en gros euh économie domestique donc en fait on était dans une salle avec ces collégiens qui pendant 2h ont commencé par préparer des lasagnes... et puis ils sont posés à une table et là ils ont regardé des vidéos éducatives où on leur expliquait que tout ça c'était très bien mais que leur pays restait quand même assez inégalitaire que les femmes en faisaient encore beaucoup plus à la maison que les hommes euh et que et que ça n'allait pas..."

      Il est souligné que l'éducation ne se limite pas à l'école ; l'exemple donné par les parents à la maison est essentiel. Si les enfants voient un partage inégal des tâches, cela renforce les stéréotypes.

      D'autres pistes éducatives incluent :

      Éduquer aux émotions dès le plus jeune âge : apprendre aux enfants à reconnaître et gérer leurs émotions (peur, angoisse), notamment à travers des approches comme la méditation.

      Revaloriser le "prendre soin" : encourager dès la petite enfance une culture qui valorise le soin, chez les garçons comme chez les filles, en combattant l'infériorisation associée au féminin.

      Repenser les représentations culturelles : promouvoir dans les livres, dessins animés et autres supports des modèles de familles et de rôles plus égalitaires.

      Questionner la charge mentale des enfants : alléger les emplois du temps scolaires, revoir les attentes en matière d'orientation professionnelle dès le collège.

      Réintroduire des compétences du quotidien dans l'enseignement : à l'instar des anciens cours de "techno" qui incluaient cuisine et couture, réintégrer ces savoirs et compétences pratiques, peut-être dès l'école maternelle, en les intégrant dans des apprentissages plus larges.

      Conclusion

      La discussion révèle la complexité des enjeux liés à la paternité et à l'égalité parentale.

      Les défis sont à la fois individuels (perceptions et comportements des pères) et structurels (lois, politiques publiques, organisation du travail, éducation).

      Si des avancées sont observées, le chemin vers une égalité réelle est encore long. Les intervenants soulignent l'importance d'une volonté politique forte, de politiques publiques ambitieuses (notamment en matière de congés et de modes d'accueil), d'une transformation du monde du travail, et d'une éducation qui remet en cause les stéréotypes de genre et valorise le "prendre soin" et les émotions.

      Le rôle des médias (BD, podcasts) pour sensibiliser et ouvrir des espaces de dialogue sur ces sujets intimes est également mis en avant.

    1. Document de synthèse : Audition de France enfance protégée

      Source : Excerpts from "🔴 Violences dans des établissements scolaires: audition de France enfance protégée"

      Date de l'audition : Non précisée dans les extraits.

      Organisme auditionné : France enfance protégée, représentée par sa directrice générale.

      Objet de l'audition : Violences dans les établissements scolaires et rôle de France enfance protégée dans leur prévention et leur protection, notamment à travers le numéro 119 et l'Observatoire national de la protection de l'enfance.

      Points clés :

      1. Contexte et Structure de France enfance protégée :

      • France enfance protégée est une création récente (suite à la loi du 7 février 2022) regroupant plusieurs dispositifs préexistants : le Service national d'écoute téléphonique (119), l'Observatoire national de la protection de l'enfance (ONPE), l'Agence Française de l'Adoption et le Conseil national d'accès aux origines.
      • L'organisme est financé à parts égales (50/50) par l'État et les départements, avec un budget de recettes d'un peu moins de 10 millions d'euros et des dépenses légèrement supérieures (environ 11,5 millions d'euros).
      • La gouvernance est tripartite : présidence assurée par la présidente de Départements de France (actuellement Florence Dabin), vice-présidence assurée par l'État (DGCS) et deuxième vice-présidence assurée par des associations (représentées par Martine Brous de La Voix de l'enfant). Les associations sont présentes dans la gouvernance mais ne contribuent pas financièrement.
      • Le personnel compte environ 110 ETP, dont un tiers sont des écoutants du 119 (environ 25 ETP mais près de 50 personnes en nombre physique), le reste étant réparti entre l'adoption, l'ONPE, le Conseil national de l'accès aux origines et les services support.

      2. Le rôle du 119 et le processus de signalement :

      • Le 119 "allo enfance en danger" est ouvert 24h/24 et doublé d'un site internet (allo119.gouof.fr). Son affichage est obligatoire dans les établissements scolaires.
      • Le 119 reçoit et traite environ 35 000 situations par an.
      • Le processus de signalement implique un tri initial des appels. Les appels qui ne concernent pas le périmètre direct (violences sur adultes, harcèlement non lié à un danger pour l'enfant) sont réorientés.
      • La majorité des violences signalées sont intrafamiliales.
      • Les violences institutionnelles repérées sont encore très faibles, avec environ 450 situations identifiées en 2021 sur 32 000 appels. La recherche de ce chiffre nécessite des études spécifiques.
      • Lorsqu'un appel est traité et qu'un danger est identifié, une fiche d'information est remplie par l'écoutant pour recueillir un maximum de détails.
      • Toutes les fiches sont transmises à la Cellule de Recueil des Informations Préoccupantes (CRIP) du département concerné, conformément à la loi.
      • Deux exceptions à la transmission à la CRIP existent :
      • Danger immédiat : appel direct à la police.
      • Danger grave et imminent : signalement direct au procureur.
      • La directrice générale reconnaît des points d'amélioration dans le processus, notamment sur le faible taux de retour des CRIP sur les suites données aux signalements transmis. Sur les violences institutionnelles, une enquête a montré environ un tiers de retours.

      3. Relations avec l'Éducation nationale :

      • Des professionnels de l'Éducation nationale (enseignants, proviseurs, infirmières scolaires) appellent le 119, parfois par doute ou avant d'utiliser leur propre circuit de signalement.
      • Ces professionnels sont systématiquement invités à utiliser le circuit de signalement interne à l'Éducation nationale (service social aux élèves).
      • France enfance protégée recueille l'information et avertit la CRIP en parallèle si un danger est identifié.
      • Le protocole actuel avec l'Éducation nationale concerne principalement l'affichage obligatoire du 119 et les campagnes d'information. Il n'y a pas de protocole détaillé sur le circuit de signalement.
      • Cela peut entraîner des "flottements" et de l'incertitude chez les professionnels sur qui alerter et leur rôle.
      • Deux types de signalements liés à l'Éducation nationale sont identifiés :
      • Signalements par des professionnels pour des situations familiales de l'élève (plusieurs milliers par an).
      • Signalements concernant des professionnels de l'Éducation nationale ou du périscolaire (environ une centaine par an), principalement pour des violences psychologiques et physiques.
      • Il existe un besoin de retravailler ce circuit avec l'Éducation nationale. La DGESCO est l'interlocuteur au niveau de l'administration centrale.
      • La question du circuit de signalement en cas de violences par un adulte sur un enfant en milieu scolaire est soulevée, interrogeant la nécessité de passer par le 119 alors qu'un circuit interne devrait exister.
      • La directrice générale souhaite comprendre l'organisation et l'information donnée aux enseignants sur les procédures à suivre en cas de suspicion de maltraitance.

      4. Défis et pistes d'amélioration :

      • Qualité de la donnée et système d'information : Le manque de système d'information unifié en protection de l'enfance rend difficile la caractérisation et l'addition du nombre total d'informations préoccupantes en France, ainsi que le suivi des suites données. Un travail est en cours par l'Adres et la DGCS pour unifier les systèmes d'information.
      • Retours des CRIP : Le faible taux de retour des CRIP constitue un problème majeur pour le suivi des signalements.
      • Violences institutionnelles : Le 119 était initialement centré sur les violences intrafamiliales. La question de la gestion des violences institutionnelles est plus récente et nécessite une meilleure communication et un réflexe CRIP/119. Un rapport de Florence Dabin souligne la nécessité d'améliorer la culture du repérage, la formation des professionnels et la prise en charge des familles et des enfants victimes.
      • Multiplicité des numéros et canaux de signalement : La présence de plusieurs numéros d'urgence (119, etc.) est jugée "aberrante" par un député. L'idée d'un numéro unique et national est évoquée.
      • Accès au 119 pour les jeunes enfants : Le 119 nécessite de savoir lire et compter, ce qui exclut les plus petits. Les initiatives comme les "boîtes aux lettres Papillon" sont citées comme un moyen complémentaire et nécessaire pour permettre aux enfants de signaler des alertes par des dessins ou des mots simples. La reconnaissance institutionnelle de ces initiatives est souhaitée.
      • Affichage du 119 : Bien qu'obligatoire, le contrôle de l'affichage effectif n'est pas assuré par France enfance protégée. Le lieu d'affichage dans les établissements est également questionné pour garantir son accessibilité aux élèves sans la surveillance d'un adulte.
      • Protocoles avec les institutions : Un besoin de protocoles plus précis et détaillés est identifié avec toutes les institutions, notamment l'Éducation nationale, pour définir clairement qui fait quoi en cas de signalement et assurer un suivi complet.
      • Etablissements à double tutelle : La question de l'affichage du 119 dans les établissements agricoles et professionnels est soulevée. Un protocole avec le ministère de l'Agriculture semble plus avancé que celui avec l'Éducation nationale.
      • Recentralisation : La directrice générale ne se positionne pas sur la recentralisation mais souligne la complexité générée par les différentes organisations départementales des CRIP et des services. L'unification des systèmes d'information est une alternative pour améliorer la cohérence.
      • Interface avec l'Éducation nationale : L'idée d'avoir des éducateurs spécialisés formés en protection de l'enfance directement auprès des directeurs académiques est suggérée comme une interface pour faciliter les échanges et le traitement des signalements.
      • Transmission d'information sur les auteurs de violences : Le manque de transmission d'information entre départements sur les auteurs de violences identifiés et signalés permet parfois leur réembauche auprès d'enfants. Le fichier figes est en cours de déploiement mais ne couvre pas toutes les situations. La notion d'interdiction d'exercer est jugée à géométrie variable.
      • Signalements dans la petite enfance : La question de la part des signalements concernant les moins de 3 ans et de leur évolution récente dans les structures d'accueil est posée.
      • Formation et moyens des écoutants : Les écoutants sont principalement des travailleurs sociaux et psychologues. Il est difficile de recruter et de fidéliser le personnel, notamment en raison des conditions de travail (temps incomplet, cycle 24/24). La directrice générale travaille à améliorer l'attractivité des postes et l'organisation du service. Le manque de personnel et de moyens nécessaires pour faire face à l'augmentation des attentes est implicitement reconnu. L'organisation actuelle ne permet pas de répondre dans un cas sur deux aux appels entrants. La qualité des compétences professionnelles des écoutants est une priorité à maintenir. L'efficience du système, notamment le pré-accueil, est en cours d'étude.
      • Soutien psychologique des écoutants : La question du soutien moral des écoutants confrontés à des situations difficiles est posée.

      Citations marquantes :

      • "nous avons souhaité vous entendre notamment parce que l'organisme que vous dirigez est responsable de deux outils en lien avec notre sujet le numéro 119 allo en enfance en danger ouvert 24h/ 24 désormais doublé d'un site internet allo119.gouof.fr dont un affichage dans les les établissements scolaires doit obligatoirement signaler l'existence aux élèves et l'Observatoire national de la protection de l'enfance grâce auquel vous disposez de données statistiques sur les violences dont les enfants sont victimes"
      • "chacun des départements est appelé à contribution c'est obligatoire et de l'état donc euh dans le texte de loi c'est clairement un partage 50 % 50 % entre État et département"
      • "la cripe donc la cellule de recueil des informations préoccupantes des départements avaient une place essentielle euh dans ce dispositif et en même temps parfois elle n'apparaît pas dans les chaînes de signalement"
      • "en gros sur une année on a 37 35000 situations traitées"
      • "le nombre de violence insuelle repéré était de 450 donc vous voyez 30 à l'époque il y avait 32000 appels 450 repérage de violence institutionnelle on est sur des proportions très faibles"
      • "la majorité des violences que l'on reçoit sont des violences signalées dans le intrafamilial"
      • "toute fiche part vers la cellule de recueil d'informations préoccupante à deux exceptions près quand on estime qu'il y a un danger immédiat en fait on appelle la police directement"
      • "les cripes sont dans le cœur du réacteur puisque dans le quand il a il a créé ses cellules voulait que au niveau local il y ait un seul lieu de recueil qui permette ensuite de faire une enquête sociale une évaluation sociale plus exactement"
      • "on a énormément de situations qui concernent des gens qui nous appellent notamment des des des enseignants des proviseurs des infirmièes scolaires qui parfois dans le doute avant d'appeler leur propre circuit de signalement... vont nous appeler le 119"
      • "on a environ 90 professionnels qui sont concernés par des des violences institutionnelles enfin des qui sont eux-mêmes violents"
      • "sur les 100 situations et types de dangers repérés qui peuvent être cumulables on a les violences psychologiques qui sont les premières sur l'éducation nationale et ensuite les violences physiques"
      • "aujourd'hui on l'a pas systématiquement sur les violences dit institutionnelles il y a eu une enquête même de fait ils ont essayé de savoir les collègues euh où on était la la suivie on a eu un tiers de réponses à peu près"
      • "aujourd'hui on n'est pas capable de caractériser aujourd'hui le nombre total d'informations préoccupante en France puisque le 119 c'est une part c'est 20 % à peu près des des IP"
      • "il il y a eu des enquêtes hiigas notamment je crois que c'était IGAS qui étit voir un peu ce qui se passait quand il y a des en fait les IGAS viennent régulièrement voir la ce qui se passe dans les départements... on sait que c'est pas une déperdition sur la situation mais qu' peut avoir beaucoup de temps parfois entre le moment où le dossier arrive à la cripe et la mise en œuvre de l'évaluation ça peut être en plusieurs semaines voir plusieurs mois"
      • "sur le le viol et sur le fait que on est euh en tout cas un faisau de d'éléments on le fera le signalement au procureur d'autant plus si c'est une parole d'enfant ou de jeune qui pourrait être concerné lui-même euh là on doit signaler au procureur"
      • "je suis arrivée depuis peu peu sur ce poste mais c'est une de mes priorités c'est vraiment que on améliore absolument le taux de éviter que les personnes soient obligées de rappeler parce que quand elle rappelle souvent on peut passer à côté de quelque chose notamment pour les enfants"
      • "on a pu constater je vous en cache je je que parfois il peut y avoir une interprétation écoutant et que donc il faut que nos protocoles soient une forme scénarisé"
      • "on n'a pas aujourd'hui le problème c'est qu'on n pas un outil unique qui nous permett d'unifier ce qu'on envoie s peu on peut tracer tout tout ce qu'on envoie un peut le tracer on ne peut pas tracer tout ce qui nous revient ou pas"
      • "j'ai vraiment vous écoutant la la sensation qu'on a faire à une usine à gaz alors qu'on devrait avoir à faire un protocole quand il y a un risque on est en mode gestion de risque et on met en place un protocole qui n'apparaît pas comme une aide qu'on apporte mais comme un processus hyper carré hyper clair hyper suivi pour qu'il n'y ait pas de de sement de louper"
      • "on a pas moins de cinq numéros différents pour signaler des cas de violence... c'est aberrant enfin voilà il faut que ça s'arrête et c'était une de un des cris du cœur d'un des d'une des victimes du collectif betaram un seul numéro unique"
      • "les boîtes au lett papillon évidemment qu'elles ont fait leur qu'elles ont eu leur leur impact et qu'on voit qu'elles permettent à des enfants par des dessins par des mots parfois très simples de de signaler"
      • "on voit bien que nousmême au niveau du 119 on a ouvert un chat mais il y a trs très peu de temps alors que ENF on paraît des fois on est en 2025 mais c'est vrai que le chat je crois qu'on l'a ouvert il y a 2 3 ans on aurait pu l'ouvrir il y a 15 ans"
      • "on n'a pas de moyen nous de contrôle de à part quand on passe dans des écoles à titre privé ou ou ou quand on va faire des des réunions dans un certain nombre de sites mais on n'a pas le contrôle il serait logique qu'il y ait une forme de contrôle de l'affichage"
      • "on a une enfin en tout cas la vous savez que le 119 maintenant est mis dans les carnets de santé pourrait se poser la question mais je crois que le 119 il faut que je vérifie s'il est mis dans les carnets de correspondance mais j'ai un doute je crois pas"
      • "avec l'éducation nationale c'est vra qu'on est avant tout sur la question de l'affiche obligatoire"
      • "notre interlocuteur au niveau administration centrale c'est la direction générale de la scolarité la dgsco qui avec lequel on doit bientôt travailler sur ces questionsl"
      • "si on commence à avoir des circuits parallèle ça va devenir compliqué par contre ça empêche pas qu'on signale en même temps à la CRIP et à l'inspection d'académie"
      • "l'éducation nationale a la chance d'avoir une ressource le service social aux élèves alors quel les moyens qu'ils ont hein c'est pas voilà c'est c'est parfois compliqué puisque travailleurs sociaux en école infirmière et médecins scolair si je prends l'ensemble de l'équipe service social et médecine scolaire c'est des petits effectifs"
      • "l'on est peut-être le point faible globalement avec toute institution c'est comment protocolise de manière très précise j'ai ce signalement à qui je m'adresse comment il est qui fait quoi entre le niveau local le niveau national et ensuite le retour ça il y a pas aujourd'hui d'exemple de modèle de de ce type de circuit complet"
      • "on n'arrive pas à obtenir un affichage obligatoire une communication obligatoire sur votre numéro on sait mettre en place un processus pour les risques attentats les risques de violence fait aux enfants sont j'ai pas envie de quantifier mais bien plus élevés"
      • "il peut sembler aberérrant un petit peu comme le ressentz madame la Présidente que des professionnels de l'éducation nationale appellent le 119 pour savoir ce qu'ils ont à faire"
      • "la DGC elle ne traite absolument pas des établissements prévés sous contrat il y en a 7500 il y a 2 millions d'élèves qui sont scolarisé"
      • "je viens d'un département où l'enseignement privé est en très présent il y avait euh un on avait un travail en fait quasiment quotidien entre l'inspection d'académie et la Direction Diocésaine euh et notamment sur des questions"
      • "c'est très compliqué de s'y retrouver de savoir quel est l'interlocuteur à à à aborder on le voit pour des députés et donc aussi pour l'éducation nationale"
      • "beaucoup de signalements ne sont sont refusés par les procureurs ou la protection l'enfance parce que pas forcément bien écrit parce que c'est pas la même culture professionnelle en protection de l'enfance que dans l'éducation national"
      • "même les départements en trou n'utilisent pas les mêmes logiciels et que l'adresse oou l'INC s'en plaigne actuellement"
      • "est-ce que vous pensez que recentraliser le recueil des signalement faciliterai la gestion et le traitement des signalements"
      • "qu'est-ce que vous penseriez de l'idée d'avoir des éducateurs spécialisés formés en protection de l'enfance directement auprès donc on dit facilement inspecteur d'académie mais maintenant c'est les daenes"
      • "les enseignants qui appelaient ou en tout cas les personnels de l'Éducation nationale appel le votre numéro avant de déclencher les procédures c'est un besoin de Ré c'est un besoin de soutien c'est un besoin de se sentir légitime à déclencher les procédure et à protéger l'enfant dans une institution qui ne s'occupe que d'enfants"
      • "je ne m'explique pas que en 2025 avec ce que l'on connaît ces boîtes lettes n''est pas le droit de citer au sein des établissements de l'éducation nationale précisément"
      • "il y a des situations qui nous sont remontées où des auteurs d'agression de violence étaient identifiés donc signalés et donc ils étaient sortis d'une certaine manière au bout d'un moment quand c'était trop pesant des établissements et ils étaient tout simplement réembauchés dans le département d'à côté sans qu'il a en fait de transmission d'information"
      • "le figes donc le fichier des infractions euh euh à caractère donc sexuel et des violences sexuelles et et autres euh va être mis en place sur aujourd'hui les professionnels donc des établissements d'accueil du jeune enfant de la protection de l'enfance"
      • "je crois qu'elle est en 2026 ils ont déjà repéré des situations des professionnels travaillaient dans des dans des lieux il y a pu avoir des des matchs entre guillemets entre le fait qu'il y avait son inscription figes et que la personne était auprès d'enfant je crois que c'est je je ils vous en parleront mieux mais une soit déjà une 70 80 ce qui est ça peut paraître un petit chiffre mais c'est énorme"
      • "il y a la question quand même de l'interdiction d'exercer qui moi m'a toujours surpris sur les assistants familiaux par exemple ou assistants maternels"
      • "aujourd'hui on a beaucoup de personnes à temps incomplet on a du mal à recruter et je comprends pourquoi on a du mal à recruter parce qu'il y a aussi les conditions de travail qu'on propose et le cycle de travail"
      • "on n'est pas assez attractif et la question donc du nombre je pourrais répondre parce que j'ai eu la question à la fois du côté syndical mais aussi ministériel de en gros est-ce que vous avez assez d'écoutant aujourd'hui je suis dans l'organisation actuelle je peux pas répondre dans une future organisation un peu plus struct é je pourrais vous dire"
      • "il faut pas qu'on baisse la qualité des compétences professionnelles que l'on a c'est-à-dire qu'aujourd'hui on est avec des écoutants qui sont trailleurs sociaux psychologues principalement"
      • "Madame la Directrice générale je viens de me faire prendre ma question parce qu'effectivement c'était la question des écoutants comment sont-ils formés par qui est-ce qu'ils sont souvent renouvelés ou pas et est-ce qu' moralement est-ce qu'ils tiennent aussi"

      Demandes de documents :

      • Protocole sur l'affichage obligatoire du 119.
      • Protocole écrit actuel des écoutants et le contenu de leur formation.
      • Support référentiel 2022 de la Haute Autorité de Santé pour l'évaluation sociale des informations préoccupantes.
      • Contribution sur les premières pistes d'amélioration souhaitées par la directrice générale, même si elles ne sont pas finalisées, en se libérant des contraintes actuelles.

      Conclusion (implicite) :

      • L'audition met en lumière la complexité du système de protection de l'enfance en France, notamment dans sa gestion des signalements de violences, et le besoin urgent d'améliorations, de simplification, d'harmonisation et d'unification pour garantir une prise en charge efficace et un suivi rigoureux des situations d'enfants en danger, en particulier dans le contexte scolaire.

      La collaboration entre les différentes institutions, un système d'information unifié et l'amélioration des moyens alloués au 119 sont des pistes essentielles pour progresser.

    1. Compte Rendu d'Audition : Violences dans les Établissements Scolaires

      Source: Extraits de "🔴Violences dans des établissements scolaires: Ciase et Inirr auditionnées dans le cadre de l’enquête"

      Date de l'audition: 2025

      Personnes auditionnées:

      • M. Jean-Marc Sauvé, Président de la Commission Indépendante sur les Abus Sexuels dans l'Église (SIAZ)
      • Mme Marie Derain de Vaucresson, Présidente de l’Instance Nationale Indépendante de la Reconnaissance et de la Réparation (Inirr)
      • M. Antoine Garapon, Président de la Commission Reconnaissance et Réparation (CRR)
      • Objet: Examen des modalités du contrôle de l'État et de la prévention des violences dans les établissements scolaires, dans le cadre des travaux d'enquête parlementaire, suite à la publication du rapport de la SIAZ en octobre 2021.

      Thèmes principaux abordés:

      • L'ampleur des violences sexuelles sur mineurs en France: Les intervenants rappellent l'estimation de 5,5 millions de personnes majeures ayant été sexuellement agressées pendant leur minorité en France, soulignant que cela doit être le cadre global de la réflexion sur les violences en milieu scolaire.
      • La répartition des agressions sexuelles selon le lieu:Familles ou relations avec des amis des familles: 45%
      • Hors institution (rue, transports, relations entre jeunes): 33,2%
      • Institutions publiques et privées: plus de 15%
      • La part des agressions sexuelles commises dans l'Église catholique: 6% du total des agressions sexuelles identifiées (sur les 15% commis en institution).
      • Les violences dans l'enseignement privé (hors Église catholique): Estimées à 108 000 cas, représentant 2% du total des agressions sexuelles.
      • Les violences dans l'enseignement public: Estimées à 191 000 cas (50 000 en internat, 141 000 en externat), représentant 3,4% du total des victimes. Il est souligné que l'enseignement public scolarise 80% des élèves, contre 20% pour le privé, ce qui explique la différence de prévalence. La proportion plus élevée d'élèves en internat dans le privé est également mentionnée comme un facteur propice aux abus.
      • La défaillance de l'autorité institutionnelle: Les abus se sont produits dans un contexte de "défaillance de l'autorité" dans toutes les institutions accueillant des mineurs (établissements scolaires, clubs sportifs, accueils collectifs). Cette autorité, censée garantir la bientraitance et protéger les enfants, a été "souvent absente, indifférente," permettant ainsi aux abus de se produire et de se maintenir.
      • Analyse des abus dans l'enseignement scolaire catholique:Auteurs: Dans la période 1940-1969, les enseignants membres du clergé étaient à l'origine de 30,6% des abus. Ce chiffre a diminué progressivement pour atteindre 3,5% sur la période 1990-2020. Sur l'ensemble de la période étudiée, ils sont à l'origine de 24,5% des agressions sexuelles dans l'Église catholique.
      • Lieux: Les établissements scolaires (y compris les internats) ont représenté 36,3% des abus dans l'Église catholique sur la période 1940-1969, diminuant à 8,9% sur 1990-2020. En moyenne, "près d'un tiers des abus sexuels dans l'Église catholique se sont produits dans les établissements d'enseignement internat et externat à la fois".
      • Constatations spécifiques de la CRR (Commission Reconnaissance et Réparation):44% des situations de victimes mineures traitées par la CRR concernent des établissements scolaires.
      • La plupart des faits sont anciens (40-50 ans après les faits), à une époque où les directions et les surveillants de dortoir étaient souvent confiés à des religieux.
      • Dans près de 100% des cas, les agresseurs sont des hommes.
      • Les agresseurs par ordre décroissant sont : le directeur, les enseignants, les surveillants de dortoir, le chef de chorale et l'aumônier.
      • 80% des victimes sont de petits garçons, souvent agressés avant ou autour de la puberté.
      • Les prédateurs repèrent des enfants particulièrement vulnérables.
      • Une surreprésentation de l'Ouest de la France est observée.
      • Existence de "clusters", c'est-à-dire des établissements avec plusieurs prédateurs et un fonctionnement "quasi systémique" entre le directeur et un ou deux enseignants. Ces établissements, bien que peu nombreux, ont généré un grand nombre de victimes.
      • Le pensionnat est un cadre propice aux abus, souvent répétés sur de longues périodes.
      • Il existe des "scénarios" ou "dispositifs" utilisés par les agresseurs.
      • Dans certains cas, on peut se demander s'il n'y avait pas une "culture d'établissement".
      • L'enfant ne peut souvent pas parler à sa famille (peur de ne pas être cru, peur de faire exploser la famille ou l'établissement).
      • L'absence de sanctions dans la quasi-totalité des cas et la couverture des agissements sont soulignées.
      • Constat des vies "dévastées" des victimes, même des décennies après les faits (alcoolisme, solitude, phobies, isolement social, incapacité à communiquer).
      • Le travail de réparation aide les victimes à sortir du silence, même en cas d'amnésie traumatique.
      • La honte et la culpabilité ressenties par les victimes, qui pensent parfois être responsables de ce qui leur est arrivé.
      • Explication de la différence de taux de prévalence public/privé:L'internat est un facteur objectif majeur.
      • Dans le privé, notamment dans la première période, des "dévoiements, dénaturations, perversions" ont eu lieu, notamment dans le cadre de l'accompagnement spirituel et des sacrements (confession).
      • Lieu de l'autorité institutionnelle dans l'enseignement catholique: L'autorité se situe au niveau des "organes de gestion des établissements d'enseignement catholique". Le Secrétariat Général de l'Enseignement Catholique n'est pas une autorité hiérarchique directe, contrairement au Ministère de l'Éducation Nationale et aux recteurs pour le public. Cette absence d'autorité hiérarchique directe sur les établissements privés a été une "découverte tout à fait récente" pour M. Sauvé.
      • Pertinence d'une approche nationale et transversale: Une approche nationale et transversale de la prévention de la maltraitance, intégrant l'enseignement public et privé (sous et hors contrat), est jugée "pleinement pertinente". Un dispositif de remontée et de traitement des alertes à ce niveau ne porterait pas atteinte au caractère propre des établissements privés.
      • Importance d'une stratégie proactive et de formations: Les dispositifs d'alerte doivent être accompagnés de formations obligatoires. L'inquiétude concerne les établissements qui ne font rien remonter, suggérant qu'il n'y a pas de "vie angélique".
      • La périodisation (1940-1969, 1970-1989, 1990-2020): Cette périodisation, inspirée par des historiens, correspond à des moments de bascule dans l'histoire de l'Église catholique et de l'enseignement.
      • Avant 1970: Période avant Vatican II, forte présence des internats (petits séminaires), nombreux prêtres et religieux dans les établissements.
      • 1970-1989: Réduction significative du nombre d'internats et de prêtres/religieux dans les établissements, confiés de plus en plus à des laïcs.
      • 1990-2020: Prise de conscience de la gravité des violences sexuelles sur mineurs dans les années 90. Changement de doctrine au Ministère de l'Éducation Nationale en 1998 (signalement systématique au parquet, poursuites disciplinaires). Décision de "tolérance zéro" par la Conférence des Évêques en 2000. Temps de latence plus long dans l'Église catholique pour passer de la parole aux actes en raison d'un milieu plus restreint et d'une ambiance de fraternité. Le "véritable basculement" dans l'Église catholique a eu lieu avec l'affaire de la Parole Libérée à Lyon (2015-2016).
      • Estimation du nombre de prêtres et religieux abuseurs: Estimé à 2800-2900 depuis 1945, soit 2,6% à 2,7% du total. Comparaisons internationales montrent des variations (Pays-Bas : 2,2-2,3%, États-Unis/Allemagne : 4,5%, Australie/Irlande : >7%). Les chercheurs ont souligné l'impact de la tradition française post-Révolution dans la "maîtrise" de ces dysfonctionnements par rapport à des sociétés "pilarisées" où l'Église était ultra dominante.
      • Caractère systémique des abus: Le caractère systémique, sauf exception (certains petits séminaires, communautés nouvelles), ne réside pas dans des organisations dédiées à la commission d'agressions, mais dans le fait que "l'institution n'a pas su voir et entendre", n'a pas su capter les "signaux faibles". Lorsque la réalité s'imposait, elle a réagi par le "déni", puis les "mutations discrètes" plutôt que le signalement au parquet et les sanctions.
      • La libération de la parole: Le phénomène de libération de la parole reste "profondément troublant et mystérieux". Malgré la publicité des appels à témoignages et la notoriété de la SIAZ, le nombre de victimes identifiées (2750 pendant les travaux, plus 200 après la publication) est très faible par rapport aux 360 000 estimations, ce qui a conduit à des accusations de "fabriquer des chiffres".
      • Application des recommandations de la SIAZ: Les recommandations concernant la reconnaissance et la réparation du passé ont été "prises en charge et mises en œuvre immédiatement". Pour les autres recommandations (prévention, contrôle), les intervenants ont une visibilité limitée, car cela dépasse leur mission actuelle.
      • Le rôle des parents: La question du rôle des parents est soulevée : l'absence, le refus de voir, ou l'incapacité à entendre. Dans les familles populaires, l'autorité du prêtre pouvait rendre "inconcevable" ou "inimaginable" les abus. Certains parents, même sachant, continuaient de placer leurs enfants dans ces établissements, les considérant comme la "meilleure solution".
      • La "culture d'établissement": Mélange d'un contexte géographique (souvent campagne), de l'absence de recours pour les victimes, d'un discours religieux manipulé pour créer une emprise (terrorisme, menace de mort violente en enfer), d'une atmosphère austère et triste, mais aussi "extrêmement sexualisée" (nudité forcée, voyeurisme). Cette culture est "très difficilement" réformable.
      • Le syndrome d'occupation intérieure: Les traumatismes liés aux abus "occupent toute la vie" des victimes, les empêchant littéralement de vivre, les forçant à échapper à des souvenirs ou des sensations qui les rappellent l'abus. La libération de ce "fardeau intérieur" est un objectif de la réparation.
      • Liens entre réparation et prévention: La réparation et la reconnaissance des violences passées sont "indissociables de la prévention". La meilleure prévention passe par la "responsabilisation des auteurs", les sanctions automatiques (exemple de l'armée), l'éclaircissement de ce qui s'est passé, les appels à témoignages, et l'association des associations de victimes au travail de réforme.
      • Le sort des établissements concernés: Nombre de ces établissements ont fermé. Se pose la question de "que faire de ces établissements". La demande des associations de victimes que l'État s'excuse est évoquée, ainsi que l'incompréhension de voir certains de ces lieux (qualifiés de "bagnes", "prisons", "cachots" par les victimes) être aujourd'hui utilisés pour des activités festives ou de loisirs.
      • L'enrichissement du service public de la justice: Nécessité de réfléchir à l'offre de "solutions restauratives" pour les victimes dont l'auteur est décédé ou fortuné, au-delà de la seule compensation financière, qui, bien que nécessaire, ne peut réparer l'irréparable. Ces solutions devraient s'appliquer à d'autres secteurs (arts vivants, fédérations sportives).
      • Échanges avec le SGEEC (Secrétariat Général de l'Enseignement Catholique): M. Sauvé reconnaît ne pas avoir alerté spécifiquement le SGEEC après la remise du rapport de la SIAZ, pensant que les recommandations générales suffiraient et que le problème des abus dans l'enseignement catholique diminuait. Il a rencontré le secrétaire général plus récemment, à l'occasion du dossier de Betaram.

      Idées ou faits les plus importants:

      • L'ampleur alarmante des violences sexuelles sur mineurs en France, touchant des millions de personnes.
      • La part significative des abus commis en institution, dont l'enseignement catholique et l'enseignement public.
      • La défaillance généralisée de l'autorité institutionnelle comme facteur clé ayant permis ces abus.
      • L'évolution chronologique des abus dans l'enseignement catholique, avec une forte présence des religieux dans les périodes anciennes.
      • La description poignante par la CRR des vies dévastées des victimes, souvent des décennies après les faits, et le rôle crucial de la réparation pour les aider à sortir du silence.
      • L'existence de "clusters" et potentiellement d'une "culture d'établissement" propice aux abus dans certains lieux.
      • Le caractère systémique des abus dans l'Église catholique résidant dans l'incapacité de l'institution à voir, entendre et réagir de manière appropriée.
      • Le constat de la faible proportion de signalements ayant atteint l'institution ecclésiale.
      • La reconnaissance par M. Sauvé de ne pas avoir spécifiquement alerté l'enseignement catholique après son rapport, et la pertinence d'une approche nationale sur la prévention.
      • La demande des associations de victimes que l'État s'excuse et la question de l'utilisation actuelle de lieux ayant été le théâtre d'abus.
      • La nécessité d'enrichir le service public de la justice avec des offres restauratives pour les victimes.

      Citations importantes:

      • "Nous avons estimé à 5 millions et demi le nombre de personnes majeures dans notre société qui ont été sexuellement agressé pendant leur minorité et ceci doit être vraiment le cadre de notre réflexion." (M. Sauvé)
      • "tous ces abus se sont produit dans un contexte dans lequel l'autorité s'est révélée défaillante... elle a été trop souvent absente indifférente et c'est ce qui a permis à ses abus de se de se produire et de se maintenir" (M. Sauvé)
      • "près d'un tiers des abus sexuels dans l'Église catholique se sont produits dans les établissements d'enseignement internat et externat à la fois" (M. Sauvé)
      • "on constate dans le temps que ce sont des faits anciens la plupart des victimes qui s'adressent à nous viennent 40 ans 50 ans après les faits" (M. Garapon)
      • "il y a des clusters il y a des établissements où il y a plus d'un prédateur 2 3 avec un fonctionnement quasi systémique entre le directeur et un ou deux enseignants" (M. Garapon)
      • "souvent l'enfant ne peut pas parler à sa famille... il a peur de ne pas être cru a peur de faire exploser l'établissement de faire exploser sa famille" (M. Garapon)
      • "je vois des vies dévastées que je ne soupçonnais pas au moment où j'étais juge des enfants je ne soupçonnais pas la dévastation le le les destins terribles des gens que nous voyons" (M. Garapon)
      • "le caractère systémique ou institutionnel il a résidé dans le fait que l'institution n'a pas su voir et entendre n'a pas su capter des signaux faibles" (M. Sauvé)
      • "l'Église catholique n'a été informé que de 4 % du nombre abus" (M. Sauvé)
      • "il n'y avait absolument rien à retirer pas un mot à retrancher [des recommandations de la SIAZ]" (M. Sauvé)
      • "on est très souvent sur des modes de défense de l'institution... qui a pour conséquence de ne pas accueillir les personnes victimes au bon niveau ne serait-ce que pour les entendre" (Mme Derain)
      • "comment on réforme une culture d'établissement comment on on pense à des choses que bon auxquelles il faut avoir été victime pour le pour le comprendre" (M. Garapon)
      • "la meilleure des préventions c'est de pouvoir c'est c'est de c'est de responsabiliser de responsabiliser les auteurs" (M. Garapon)

      Questions pour la suite:

      • Obtenir le nombre précis de clusters recensés par la CRR.
      • Explorer davantage les mécanismes de la "culture d'établissement" et les moyens concrets d'en sortir.
      • Évaluer l'application effective des recommandations de la SIAZ par les différentes administrations de l'État concernées (éducation nationale, justice, etc.).
      • Demander les rapports de février 2023 de la Conférence des Évêques sur le suivi des recommandations de la SIAZ.
      • Interroger les associations de parents d'élèves sur leur connaissance et leur rôle face aux violences en milieu scolaire.
      • Analyser le traitement différencié des signalements selon les situations et les établissements.
      • Réfléchir à la responsabilité de l'État concernant le financement et l'utilisation des lieux ayant été le théâtre d'abus.
      • Explorer les possibilités concrètes de développer des offres de justice restaurative pour les victimes, au-delà des solutions financières.
      • Disposer des correspondances et échanges entre la SIAZ, l'Inirr/CRR et le SGEEC concernant les violences en milieu scolaire.
    1. Note de Synthèse sur les Travaux de la Commission Indépendante sur l'Inceste et les Violences Sexuelles faites aux Enfants (CIIVISE)

      Date : 2025

      Sujet : Examen des missions et des travaux de la CIIVISE, points clés soulevés lors de l'audition parlementaire.

      Sources : Excerpts from "🔴Missions de la Commission Indépendante sur l'Inceste et les Violences Sexuelles faites aux Enfants" (enregistrement audio).

      1. Contexte et Mission de la CIIVISE

      La Commission Indépendante sur l'Inceste et les Violences Sexuelles faites aux Enfants (CIIVISE), mise en place en mars 2021, a eu un rôle essentiel dans la prise de conscience collective de l'ampleur des violences sexuelles et incestueuses sur les enfants en France.

      Sa mission initiale était double : "d'écouter, de recueillir la parole des victimes de violence sexuelle durant leur enfance et de préconiser des politiques publiques pour renforcer leur protection".

      Ce travail a généré "une prise de conscience collective de l'ampleur des violents sexuelles incestueuses commis sur les enfants devenus adultes".

      La CIIVISE a achevé un cycle de travail sur le recueil de témoignages d'adultes ayant été victimes dans leur enfance et a remis un rapport en novembre 2023, formulant 82 recommandations.

      Une nouvelle gouvernance et une feuille de route ont été mises en place en avril 2024, maintenant notamment la ligne d'écoute pour les victimes.

      2. Chiffres et Ampleur du Phénomène

      Les chiffres présentés soulignent la gravité de la situation en France :

      • 160 000 enfants sont victimes de violence sexuelle en France chaque année, selon le rapport de la CIIVISE de novembre 2023.
      • Un enfant est victime de viol ou d'agression sexuelle "toutes les 3 minutes en France".
      • Dans 81 % des cas de violence sexuelle sur mineurs, l'agresseur est un membre de la famille. Il est précisé que ces violences sont plus souvent commises par un père, un grand-père, un frère, ou un oncle.
      • Trois enfants en moyenne par classe auraient été victimes d'inceste.
      • 88 % des victimes estiment que ces violences ont eu un impact sur leur santé psychique. Le psychotrauma et ses conséquences restent encore méconnus malgré des conséquences "désastreuses".

      3. Vulnérabilités Spécifiques

      Certaines populations d'enfants sont particulièrement exposées :

      • Enfants en situation de handicap : Ils ont "trois fois plus de risque d'être victime de violence sexuelle". Les petites filles présentant une déficience intellectuelle courent un risque "six fois supérieur à la moyenne". Les enfants non oralisants présentent une difficulté particulière en termes de repérage.
      • Femmes autistes : 88 % des femmes autistes sont victimes de violence sexuelle selon une étude.
      • Territoires d'outre-mer : La prévalence est particulièrement élevée, avec par exemple une exposition supérieure de 60 % pour les femmes en Martinique.
      • Violences en ligne (Cyberpédocriminalité) : Internet est un "facilitateur de mise en contact des pédocriminels entre eux mais surtout un facilitateur d'entrée en contact avec les enfants". Des phénomènes comme le grooming et la sextorsion sont en "croissance exponentielle", avec 28 737 signalements en 2024, soit une augmentation de 7000 % en 3 ans. Le temps nécessaire pour un pédocriminel d'entrer en contact avec un mineur sur les réseaux sociaux est évalué à "moins d'une minute".

      4. Conséquences des Violences

      L'inceste et les violences sexuelles sur les enfants ne détruisent pas seulement l'enfance, mais "fracturent la confiance en autrui, en soi-même, en la justice".

      Ils "marquent à vie ceux qui en sont victimes" et détruisent "des vies mais aussi des générations entières".

      La reconnaissance du psychotrauma et ses conséquences sur la santé mentale et physique des enfants sont cruciales mais encore méconnues.

      5. Recommandations et Travaux en Cours de la CIIVISE

      La CIIVISE a émis 82 recommandations en novembre 2023 pour réformer les systèmes judiciaire, éducatif et de santé. Parmi les recommandations prioritaires ou les travaux en cours :

      • Garantie de soins spécialisés dans le psychotrauma : Mise en œuvre d'un "parcours de soins modélisé".
      • Prévention : La prévention doit devenir "l'affaire non de quelques-uns mais bien de tous". La mise en place de "séances d'éducation sexuelle et affective dès la maternelle me semble urgente".
      • Repérage et Détection : Coordination du repérage et de la détection des violences avec le personnel du périscolaire, les cantines, les agents territoriaux spécialisés des écoles maternelles (ATSEM).
      • Audit des dispositifs de signalement : Demande d'un audit sur les dispositifs existants dans "tous les établissements accueillant des enfants".
      • Ordonnance de protection de l'enfant : Mise en place d'une "urgence de sûreté de l'enfant, de protection de l'enfant" pour garantir la protection immédiate d'un enfant en danger. Il est inacceptable qu'un enfant doive retourner chez un parent potentiellement agresseur pendant l'enquête.
      • Imprescriptibilité des viols et agressions sexuelles contre les enfants : Recommandation "prioritaire" pour garantir la reconnaissance et l'accès à la justice pour les victimes, même des années plus tard.
      • Suspension des visites médiatisées : Interrogation sur le maintien de ces visites qui livrent souvent l'enfant à son agresseur sans contrôle suffisant.
      • Renforcement des moyens des services sociaux et de santé scolaire : Souligné comme essentiel.
      • Travaux thématiques approfondis : Sur le handicap, l'outre-mer et la cyberpédocriminalité.
      • Module de sensibilisation en ligne : En partenariat avec l'EHESP, gratuit et accessible à tous.
      • Projet "Enfants et Adolescents de la CIIVISE" : Écoute des enfants et adolescents sur leurs expériences et propositions pour être mieux préparés aux risques. Un groupe miroir d'adolescents travaille sur des propositions concrètes, notamment sur la pair-aidance et la prévention des violences en ligne. Auditions d'enfants dans les classes et centres sociaux.
      • Classement et organisation des témoignages : Pour les rendre accessibles aux chercheurs et à la société pour des actions mémorielles.
      • Action de coopération territoriale : Mobilisation des autorités publiques dans le Nord et la Seine-Saint-Denis pour une meilleure coopération dans la réponse et la prévention.
      • Travail sur les mineurs auteurs : Reconnaissance que 27 % des auteurs ont moins de 13 ans, soulignant la complexité, notamment pour l'inceste frère-sœur, et la nécessité d'une approche thérapeutique. Des pistes de travail incluent l'apprentissage pour différencier les jeux sexuels des violences et la construction d'un réseau de soins.

      6. Défis et Besoins pour l'Avenir

      Plusieurs défis et besoins sont soulevés :

      • Soutien politique et législatif : Les recommandations ne seront efficaces que si elles sont soutenues activement par les législateurs et responsables politiques.

      Il est nécessaire d'avoir "une législation plus protectrice, d'un système judiciaire plus réactif et plus bienveillant".

      • Moyens financiers et humains : Les moyens humains ont diminué pour la deuxième phase de la CIIVISE, avec un collège directeur bénévole.

      Bien que le budget financier ait augmenté de 20 %, il ne permet pas de couvrir des missions essentielles comme les déplacements en outre-mer.

      Des moyens supplémentaires sont nécessaires pour garantir que les recommandations se traduisent en droit commun.

      • Pérennité de la CIIVISE et articulation avec d'autres instances : La question de la pérennité de la commission est soulevée face à l'écosystème existant (haut commissariat à l'enfance, délégation interministérielle de l'aide aux victimes, etc.).

      La CIIVISE demande une prolongation d'un an pour terminer ses travaux, transférer ses acquis et s'assurer que les questions d'inceste et de violences sexuelles ne soient pas noyées dans les priorités générales de la protection de l'enfance.

      • Lutte contre le silence et le déni institutionnel/sociétal : Le silence, imposé par la société, les familles et les institutions, a permis aux violences de persister.

      Les affaires récentes (Betarram, Périco, Le Squarnec) rappellent les défaillances systémiques et le fait que la parole des enfants n'est pas toujours écoutée. Il faut passer d'une réponse "à chaque crise" à une approche globale et faire de la société une société vigilante.

      • Prise en compte de la parole des mères protectrices : Régulièrement mise en cause, notamment par le concept d'aliénation parentale, il est recommandé de "toujours croire la parole des enfants et des mères protectrices".

      • Repérage et prévention dans le milieu scolaire : Les affaires comme celle de Betarram soulignent que l'école peut aussi être un lieu de maltraitance. Des mesures réactives ne suffisent pas ; il faut prévenir l'effet de violence.

      Les dispositifs de remontée d'alerte sont inexistants dans certains secteurs comme l'éducation nationale, les crèches, l'ASE et les IME.

      • Accompagnement des victimes au-delà de la ligne d'écoute :

      Il est important de comprendre comment les victimes sont réorientées après un appel (vers des professionnels de santé spécialisés, des associations, la justice, etc.), en particulier lorsque les faits sont prescrits.

      • Gestion des mineurs auteurs : Comment accompagner les professionnels confrontés à des situations de violences sexuelles entre mineurs de moins de 13 ans, qui ne relèvent pas de la justice pénale, mais nécessitent néanmoins une réponse pour les victimes et un accompagnement pour les auteurs (souvent eux-mêmes victimes ou exposés à un climat incestuel).

      7. Appel à l'Action

      La CIIVISE lance un appel fort aux législateurs et à la société pour agir :

      "Nous ne devons pas laisser les Français devant le spectacle terrifiant des violences déjà commises et pendant des décennies en toute impunité." Ils appellent à être "les instruments de ce changement" et à faire de la lutte contre l'inceste et les violences sexuelles faites aux enfants une "priorité nationale".

      C'est un "combat... de toute une société qui refuse de détourner le regard face à l'inacceptable". Il faut "combattre le déni et agir". Chaque voix qui s'élève est une "voix de vérité et de justice".

      En conclusion, l'audition a mis en lumière le travail considérable déjà accompli par la CIIVISE, l'ampleur alarmante des violences sexuelles et incestueuses sur les enfants en France, la vulnérabilité de certaines populations, les recommandations cruciales émises pour y faire face, mais aussi les défis persistants en termes de moyens, de soutien politique et de changement de culture sociétale pour garantir une protection et une réparation effectives des victimes.

      La demande de prolongation de la mission et l'appel à l'action soulignent l'urgence de poursuivre et d'amplifier les efforts dans ce domaine.

    1. Document de synthèse : "Situation dégradée de la protection de l’enfance" - Avis de la Défenseure des droits Source : Extraits de "🔴"Situation dégradée de la protection de l’enfance" : la Défenseure des droits sur sa décision-cadre" (Transcription d'une intervention)

      Date : Non précisée dans l'extrait, mais fait référence à une décision-cadre publiée en janvier 2024.

      Présentateurs : Claire Hédon (Défenseure des droits), Marguerite Orange (Cheffe du pôle droit des enfants), Antoine Touron (Conseiller parlementaire)

      Auditoire : Commission de l'Assemblée Nationale

      Objectif du document : Présenter les principales constatations, thèmes récurrents et recommandations de la décision-cadre de la Défenseure des droits concernant la situation dégradée de la protection de l'enfance en France, ainsi que les préoccupations soulevées par les députés lors de l'audition.

      Résumé:

      • La Défenseure des droits, Claire Hédon, présente devant la commission de l'Assemblée Nationale sa décision-cadre sur la protection de l'enfance, fruit d'une enquête approfondie dans 14 départements et de l'analyse de nombreuses réclamations.

      Le constat est alarmant : le système de protection de l'enfance est en crise, marqué par des dysfonctionnements systémiques et un écart important entre le droit annoncé et son effectivité.

      Les principaux problèmes identifiés incluent des délais de prise en charge excessifs, des placements non exécutés, des conditions d'accueil inappropriées, un manque de moyens humains et financiers, et une coordination insuffisante entre les acteurs.

      La situation est aggravée par des facteurs sociaux et économiques.

      La Défenseure des droits insiste sur la responsabilité partagée de l'État et des départements et plaide pour une meilleure application des lois existantes plutôt que de nouvelles réformes législatives.

      Les échanges avec les députés soulignent une large convergence sur l'urgence de la situation et la nécessité d'agir, abordant des sujets tels que la santé mentale des enfants placés, le sort des jeunes majeurs sortant de l'ASE, l'accès à la justice pour les mineurs, la prise en charge des mineurs non accompagnés et la situation du travail social. * Principaux Thèmes et Idées :

      Le rôle et les missions du Défenseur des droits : Institution administrative indépendante inscrite dans la Constitution.

      Deux missions principales : protéger les droits (traiter les réclamations) et promouvoir les droits et libertés. "Dire ce qu'il faudrait faire pour que les droits soient mieux respectés."

      Cinq domaines de compétences, dont la protection des droits des enfants, qui traverse l'ensemble de l'institution.

      Action principalement en médiation (80% des cas) et instruction.

      Pouvoirs d'instruction (obligation de fournir les pièces, sauf défense) mais pas de pouvoir de contrainte (rend des recommandations et décisions portant recommandations). Possibilité de publier un rapport spécial nommant l'organisme mis en cause et de faire des observations devant les tribunaux.

      La dégradation de la situation de la protection de l'enfance (Constats) :

      Alertes initiales de magistrats et travailleurs sociaux en 2022 sur des décisions non effectuées.

      Enquête dans 14 départements et décisions rendues dans 7.

      Alertes observées : Évaluations de danger non réalisées, délais de prise en charge de mesures éducatives à domicile, décisions de placement non exécutées, accueils d'enfants dans des lieux non autorisés (gîtes, appartements, hôtels avec éducateurs intérimaires), ruptures dans les lieux d'accueil (souvent cause de déscolarisation), non-respect des droits de visite ordonnés par le juge, maltraitances non prises en compte (manque de contrôle des établissements et familles d'accueil). Conséquences dramatiques : Cas d'un enfant décédé à son domicile faute de placement exécuté.

      • Chiffres alarmants :400 000 enfants accompagnés par l'ASE (dont plus de la moitié confiés), chiffre en forte augmentation (+ de 355 000 en 2018).
      • 77% des juges des enfants ont déjà renoncé en 2024 à prendre des décisions de placement faute de place.
      • 3000 enfants vivent à la rue en 2023.
      • 3350 enfants en liste d'attente pour des mesures de placement.
      • 8000 personnes anciennement placées sont sans domicile fixe.
      • 10 000 jeunes abandonnés à leur majorité.
      • Ces constats sont corroborés par d'autres rapports (Cour des comptes 2020, inspection générale de la justice et affaires sociales 2022, CESE 2024) et condamnations par la Cour européenne des droits de l'homme.
      • Les causes de l'aggravation :
      • Meilleur dépistage.
      • Aggravation des situations avec le COVID.
      • Impact de la pauvreté (familles isolées, mères seules).
      • Usage des écrans.
      • Difficultés des services publics (santé, école, logement).
      • Retards dans la prise en charge (générant plus de demandes de placement).
      • Manque de moyens (travailleurs sociaux, assistants familiaux, places en institutions).
      • Baisse des budgets pour la prévention (éducateurs spécialisés, éducateurs de rue, missions locales).
      • L'approche par les droits et l'écart entre le droit annoncé et son effectivité :
      • L'institution observe "un écart entre le droit annoncé et son effectivité".
      • Exemple flagrant : Le projet pour l'enfant (PPE) inscrit dans la loi mais non effectif ou insuffisamment étayé.
      • Importance de l'application de la Convention internationale des droits de l'enfant (CIDE) et de l'intérêt supérieur de l'enfant.
      • Les droits sont indissociables et interdépendants (éducation, santé, protection).
      • Les recommandations de la décision-cadre :
      • Résultat d'enquêtes, demandes de pièces, visites sur place, notes soumises au contradictoire.
      • Adresses les recommandations aux départements, mais aussi au Premier ministre, aux ministres (Intérieur, Justice, Éducation Nationale, Santé), aux préfectures, aux ARS.
      • "Nous ne considérons pas qu'il y ait besoin de réforme légale en revanche il faudrait que la loi soit réellement appliquée."
      • Insiste sur la responsabilité de l'État en tant que garant de la CIDE et de l'intérêt supérieur de l'enfant, en lien avec les départements (chefs de file).
      • Nécessité de mieux contrôler les lieux d'accueil (familles d'accueil, foyers).
      • Importance de la prévention : politique de logement, soutien à la parentalité (en référence à l'article 18 de la CIDE sur l'aide appropriée de l'État aux parents).
      • Les défis spécifiques soulevés par les députés et les réponses de la Défenseure des droits :
      • Inégalités territoriales : Cruelle inégalité de traitement entre les enfants selon les départements.
      • Manque de moyens dans la justice : Impacte les décisions de justice et leur application (70% des juges estiment ne pas pouvoir rendre une justice de qualité faute de moyens, audiences sans greffier).
      • Sortie de l'ASE : 10 000 jeunes abandonnés à leur majorité sans préparation réelle, 8000 deviennent sans domicile fixe. Importance du contrat jeune majeur et de sa poursuite même en cas de revenus modestes. Certains départements utilisent le Contrat d'Engagement Jeune qui n'offre pas le même accompagnement.
      • Enfants en situation de handicap : 50% des enfants pris en charge par l'ASE présentent un handicap. Urgence de lieux de prise en charge pluriprofessionnelle et de coordination entre ASE, MDPH, ARS. Augmentation des AESH mais question de la qualité et du nombre d'heures d'enseignement. Difficultés pour garder l'AESH et l'école en cas de changement de placement. Manque de données sur le nombre d'enfants handicapés pris en charge par l'ASE. Difficulté à prendre en compte la parole de l'enfant handicapé.
      • Mineurs non accompagnés (MNA) : L'ONU a exhorté la France à garantir la présomption de minorité. Certains départements ne respectent pas l'accueil provisoire d'urgence. Absence d'accompagnement administratif. Réduction des crédits de l'AME (dont un quart des bénéficiaires sont des mineurs). "Le mineur non accompagné est avant tout un mineur". Risque de traite des êtres humains si non pris en charge. Recommandation de prise en charge pendant toute l'évaluation de la minorité et les recours. Argument financier pour ne pas les prendre en charge contesté : risque de toucher les droits de l'ensemble des enfants.
      • Sans-abrisme des enfants : 2043 enfants dorment à la rue chaque nuit faute de place au 115. L'État se désengage en coupant le budget et en faisant reposer la responsabilité sur les collectivités. Conséquences irréversibles sur la santé.
      • Santé mentale : Délai de prise en charge dans les CMP/CMPP (2 à 3 ans d'attente). Manque de pédopsychiatres et psychologues, mais aussi impossibilité d'emploi faute de moyens. Part disproportionnée d'enfants protégés en psychiatrie. Importance des maisons des adolescents (dont le budget est précaire).
      • Attractivité du travail social : Difficultés de recrutement et turnover important. Lié aux conditions de travail et au salaire (éducateur spécialisé débutant à 1396€ net). Nécessité de revaloriser les salaires et les conditions de travail (taux d'encadrement).
      • Coordination des acteurs : Nécessité de sortir de la politique en silo. Manque de dialogue et de concertation entre les équipes (médico-social et social).
      • Le rôle de l'État : Critiques sur le désengagement et la déresponsabilisation de l'État. L'État est "le premier parent défaillant et démissionnaire". Question d'une garantie d'autonomie versée par l'État pour les jeunes majeurs.
      • Accès à la justice pour les mineurs : Accès inégal à une assistance juridique effective (avocat). Proposition de rendre la présence d'un avocat obligatoire pour tout mineur impliqué dans une procédure judiciaire.
      • Prise de conscience politique : Le niveau de prise de conscience est jugé "extrêmement bas, extrêmement faible". Situation comparée à un "Titanic qui est en train de couler".
      • Prévention : Importance du soutien à la parentalité, de la politique de logement, de l'accès à la culture et aux loisirs. Question de la prévention précoce (PMI) : fermeture de structures, diminution des effectifs. Recommandations pour renforcer les PMI et informer les familles de leur rôle. Développement des programmes de soutien à la parentalité ("Petit Pas, Grand Pas").
      • Rôle des techniciens de l'intervention sociale et familiale (TISF) : Leurs compte-rendus ne seraient jamais pris en compte alors qu'ils sont à même de repérer les situations préoccupantes.
      • Nomadisme des familles : Difficulté à suivre les familles et les signalements d'un département à l'autre. Absence de système centralisé de signalement et de recoupement des informations préoccupantes.
      • Rôle des écrans : Rôle destructeur. Nécessité de recommandations plus contraignantes. Difficulté de résister aux écrans en l'absence d'accès aux loisirs et à la culture. Proposition d'informations aux parents et aux enfants sur les effets néfastes.
      • Rôle des parents et des communes : Question sur la responsabilité des parents et les financements qu'ils continuent parfois à recevoir. Absence de recommandations spécifiques sur le bloc communal (communes). Utilité potentielle d'informer les maires des enfants protégés.
      • Mutilations génitales : Sujet préoccupant. Violence nécessitant une saisie de la justice. Importance de la prévention : informer les parents sur l'interdiction même à l'étranger et sur les contrôles au retour.
      • Conseils de famille des pupilles de l'État : Alertes sur des dysfonctionnements (transmission des bilans, initiatives du tuteur, composition ne respectant pas l'intégration d'anciens enfants placés). Enquête en cours dans l'Isère.
      • Les suites de la décision-cadre :
      • Les départements ont 4 mois pour répondre aux recommandations.
      • Un suivi rigoureux sera effectué.
      • La Défenseure des droits rencontrera la nouvelle Haute Commissaire à l'enfance.

      Citations clés :

      • "Nous n'étions pas là que pour résoudre des cas individuels mais bien pour dire ce qu'il faudrait faire pour que les droits soient mieux respectés."
      • "Un des exemples plus flagrants qui ressort de toute cette enquête dans les départements c'est la question du projet pour l'enfant il est inscrit dans la loi et et il n'est pas effectif et quand il est effectif il est très succinct."
      • "L'État a un rôle à jouer dans il est garant de l'application de la Convention internationale des droits de l'enfant et nous défenseurs des droits d'ailleurs on veille à l'application à la fois de la Convention internationale des droits de l'enfant et de l'intérêt supérieur de l'enfant."
      • "L'État doit accorder l'aide appropriée aux parents dans l'exercice de la responsabilité qui leur incombe d'élever l'enfant."
      • "L'enfant a parlé en revanche il a pas été entendu."
      • "Nous ne considérons pas qu'il y ait besoin de réforme légale en revanche il faudrait que la loi soit réellement appliquée."
      • "Le mineur non accompagné est avant tout un mineur."
      • "Monter les populations les unes contre les autres et dire qu'on prendra mieux en charge les enfants pauvres français parce qu'on ne prendra pas en charge des enfants étrangers ce n'est pas raisonnable."
      • "Pour restaurer l'autorité de la justice c'est que les décisions des juges des enfants soient appliquées."
      • "Chacun c'est dans notre Constitution n'est responsable que de ses propres actes et pas des actes commis par autrui."
      • "Il y a déjà tous les éléments dans la loi pour faire ce qu'il faut il y a pas besoin de de complément."
      • "Au bout d'un moment l'état peut être maltraitant dans la façon de ne pas suffisamment bien prendre en charge ses enfants."
      • "Il y a le ralbol par le personnel des polémiques venues d'en haut des directives de courte vue du ministère." (Députée Karen Erodi citant les professionnels)
      • "Ces enfants sont souvent à la fois victime et mise en cause dépressif et en colère mais toujours perdu et sans repère." (Députée Elise Leboucher citant des professionnels)
      • "À 18 ans c'est souvent la fin rideau terminé des jeunes qui ont grandi sous sa protection se retrouvent seul du jour au lendemain." (Députée Nadège Abomangoli)
      • "Le premier parent défaillant et démissionnaire c'est la puissance publique c'est l'état." (Député Aymeric Caron)
      • "Il est plus que tant que l'ensemble de notre société s'engage de manière systémique contre les les violences aux enfants." (Député Arnaud Bonet)

      Conclusion :

      L'intervention de la Défenseure des droits et les échanges qui ont suivi dressent un tableau sombre mais lucide de la protection de l'enfance en France.

      Si les constats sont largement partagés, la principale difficulté réside dans la mise en œuvre effective des droits existants et la mobilisation des moyens nécessaires.

      La responsabilité de l'État est particulièrement pointée du doigt, aux côtés de celle des départements.

      L'accent est mis sur l'urgence d'agir pour garantir la protection, la santé mentale, l'accès à l'éducation et à la justice, et un accompagnement digne pour tous les enfants, en particulier les plus vulnérables comme les enfants handicapés et les mineurs non accompagnés.

      La question de la revalorisation et du soutien aux professionnels du travail social est également un enjeu majeur pour l'avenir du système.

    1. Voici une synthèse détaillée des principaux thèmes et idées importants, avec des citations, tirés des sources que vous avez fournies :

      Document d'information - Difficultés d'accès aux soins

      Introduction

      La commission d'enquête, élargissant son périmètre au-delà du seul hôpital public, cherche à établir un diagnostic systémique des dysfonctionnements de notre système de santé et à identifier des solutions aux problèmes d'accès aux soins. Pour éclairer cette démarche, elle a auditionné trois experts reconnus : Mathias Wargon (médecin urgentiste), Arnaud Fontanet (épidémiologiste) et Emmanuel Vigneron (géographe de la santé).

      Thèmes Principaux et Idées Essentielles

      • Dysfonctionnements Structurels du Système de Santé : Une Approche Systémique Nécessaire
      • Au-delà de l'Hôpital Public : Les difficultés d'accès aux soins ne se limitent pas à l'hôpital public. Une approche plus large est nécessaire pour comprendre les interconnexions entre les différentes composantes du système (médecine de ville, hôpital, médico-social).

      • "…si l'hôpital public est évidemment incontournable il apparaît nécessaire de recourir à une approche plus large et plus systémique pour porter un diagnostic sur les dysfonctionnements que présente notre système de soins d'où la volonté de cette commission d'aborder plus globalement les différentes composantes de notre système de santé ainsi que les solutions diverses que nous pouvons fournir au problèmes d'accès aux soins en dehors des seuls établissements publics…"

      • Manque d'Évaluation et de Réorientation : Le système évolue par "petits bricolages", avec des mesures rarement évaluées et encore moins souvent abandonnées, même si elles sont peu satisfaisantes. Cela conduit à une complexification et à un empilement de dispositifs et de financements qui ne sont pas toujours dédiés aux soins.

      • "…le système il a probablement pas changé il évolue avec des petits bricolages par-ci par là mais n'évolue pas vraiment et les solutions sont souvent simplistes… les mesures mises en place sont rarement évolué évaluer pardon et quand elles le sont elles mènent jamais à l'arrêt des dispositifs c'est même s'ils sont peu satisfaisants et on on retire rarement le financement…"

      • Décisions Imposées Verticalement : Les solutions sont souvent décidées "du haut vers le bas" sans tenir compte du contexte local ni des soignants qui doivent les mettre en œuvre.

      • "…souvent on décide d'imposer du haut vers le bas des solutions qui sont pas adaptées sous prétexte que quelque part ça marche… sans tenir compte ni du contexte ni des soignants qui doivent faire fonctionner chaque nouveauté organisationnelle…"

      • Absence d'Exigence d'Excellence : L'excellence, qui devrait être fondamentale, n'est plus une exigence concrète dans le système. La "qualité des soins" se traduit souvent par une bureaucratie d'indicateurs qui ne remplace pas le management, le leadership et l'humanité.

      • "…l'excellence qui devrait être la base de notre système n'est plus une exigence on en parle on en parle mais on l'a fait plus… derrière la demande de qualité des soin on trouve surtout un système bureaucratique à base de points qui sanctionne ceux qui sont déjà en difficulté et qui n'améliore pas la qualité mais il y a du financement derrière…"

      • Les Urgences : Un Baromètre des Difficultés

      • Spécialité en Crise : La spécialité d'urgentiste est décrite comme très difficile à exercer, probablement la plus difficile à l'hôpital en termes de charge de travail. L'espérance de vie des urgentistes serait même significativement réduite.

      • "…médecin urgentiste une spécialité très difficile à exercer j'espère qu'on qu'on qu'on y reviendra parce que c'est probablement actuellement à hôpital la spécialité la plus difficile en terme de charge de travail… l'espérance de vie des urgentistes elle est de 58,7 7 ans c'est-à-dire 20 ans de moins que les médecins habituellement…"

      • Débordement par le Non-Programmé et le Non-Urgent : L'afflux massif de patients, y compris ceux qui pourraient être pris en charge en ville (jusqu'à 40-45% selon une étude citée), et la difficulté à réguler cet afflux mettent les urgences sous tension.

      • "…ces problèmes d'accès aux soins mais ces problèmes aussi de est-ce que les urgen doivent rester des structures de premier recours ou redevenir des structures uniquement réservées aux urgences… cet amant qui arrive est-ce qu'il faudra le réguler ou pas…" "…d'après l'étude dress au maximum c'est 40 à 45 % des patients qui pourraent être pris en charge en ambulatoire…"

      • Le Problème de l'Aval (Hospitalisation) : Ce qui "tue les urgentistes", c'est l'attente des patients qui ne peuvent pas être admis dans les autres services de l'hôpital ("les étages") ou qui ne peuvent pas sortir (vers les SSR, EHPAD, HAD, domicile).

      • "…le problème c'est ces services d'urgence qui sont plein de patients qui attendent c'est-à-dire que le reste de l'hôpital n'est pas adapté à la prise en charge aux urgences… l'attente aux urgences c'est l'attente aux urgences des patients soit parce qu'on arrive pas à les rentrer à la maison soit les patients qu'on arrive pas à rentrer dans l'hôpital…" "…un patient qui attend un lit aux urgences c'est impatiente trop…"

      • Pénurie de Personnel et Attractivité : La pénurie d'urgentistes n'est pas due à la création de la spécialité mais à la pénibilité du métier et au manque d'attractivité. Les jeunes urgentistes partent vers le SAMU, les services de soins non programmés, voire la réanimation.

      • "…la pénurie elle vient de la difficulté à exercer cette spécialité elle vient je vous l'ai dit tout à l'heure l'espérance de vie… c'est un enfer de bosser aux urgences c'est c'est vrai…"

      • Organisation des Urgences : L'organisation est cruciale. La taille des urgences est moins importante que l'organisation des flux et le nombre de personnel dédié. Certaines urgences sont "mal organisées".

      • "…c'est pas une question de taille comme d'habitude c'est une question d'organisation et de nombre de personnel qui qui est dans l'organisation les urgences… souvent les urgences elles sont mal organisées…"

      • Impact des Crises Sanitaires (COVID-19) sur l'Accès aux Soins

      • Mise en Tension Rapide du Système : Les crises pandémiques comme la COVID-19 mettent très rapidement le système hospitalier sous tension (services de soins intensifs, maladies infectieuses).

      • "…la mise en tenstion du système de soins pendant la la crise pandémique covid-19… tout ça va très vite…"

      • Difficulté de Régulation : La saturation des numéros d'urgence (comme le 15) a montré la difficulté de réguler l'accès aux soins en période de crise.

      • "…la difficulté de régulation des patients quand le 15 s'est retrouvé complètement saturé d'appel je pense qu'il fallait 4 heur pour certaines personnes avant d'avoir quelqu'un au bout du 15…"

      • Difficulté d'Intégration de la Médecine de Ville : L'articulation entre la médecine de ville et le reste du système de santé a été un défi pendant la crise. Le recours à la visio-consultation a été facilité mais a montré des freins initiaux.

      • "…la difficulté qu'on a eu à intégrer la médecine de ville dans la réponse à la à la crise pandémique… comment les articuler avec les autres éléments du système de santé et quelque chose qui restait un petit peu en suspens…"

      • Fragilités Révélées (Ex: EHPAD) : La crise a mis en évidence des fragilités, comme le manque d'oxygène dans certains EHPAD, rendant difficile la prise en charge des patients âgés.

      • "…dans les épades le fait qu'il n'y avait pas d'oxygène… ça c'est des choses aussi qu'il faudrait peut-être réfléchir…"

      Préparation aux Futures Pandémies : L'Exemple Danois et l'Anticipation

      • Nouvelles Pandémies Inévitables : Les émergences infectieuses notables se sont accélérées au 21ème siècle (10 en 25 ans contre 4 dans les 40 dernières années du 20ème siècle). Les facteurs expliquant cette accélération ne sont pas traités, laissant craindre de nouvelles pandémies, notamment grippales et liées aux coronavirus.

      • "…des nouvelles pandémies on en aura quand on regarde l'histoire récente dans les 25 premières années du 21e siècle on a eu 10 émergences infectieuses notables… l'inquiétude que c'est que ces facteurs ne sont pas traités aujourd'hui…" "…on est vraiment sous les menaces d'une pandémie grippale…"

      • L'Anticipation est Clé : Les pays qui ont le mieux géré la crise COVID-19 sont ceux qui ont anticipé et n'ont pas laissé leurs hôpitaux se remplir.

      • "…les pays qui ont le mieux géré la crise sont des pays qui n'ont pas rempli leurs hôpitaux… il y a des pays comme le Danemark qui ont gardé leurs hôpitaux vdes pendant les deux premières années parce qu'ils ont anticipé et c'est vraiment dans cette direction que j'aimerais nous pousser…"

      • L'Exemple Danois : Le Danemark a agi très tôt, avec seulement 10 hospitalisations pour COVID-19 au début de la crise, en mettant en place des mesures strictes (confinement, fermeture de lieux publics). Cela a permis d'atteindre le pic d'hospitalisation à un niveau très bas, de relâcher les mesures plus tôt, et d'obtenir un meilleur bilan humain, économique et sanitaire global.

      • "…ce que le Danemark compris ils ont simplement pas laissé leurs hôpitaux se remplir et il n'y a aucun rationnel à laisser les hôpitaux se remplir les hôpitaux n'ont pas à être la variable d'ajustement quand vous avez une courbe exponentielle…" "…Le Danemark a fait ce que la théorie épidémiologique finalement nous disait il nous a montré de façon empirique que ça fonctionne… le 11 mars 2020 alors qu'il n'y avait que 10 personnes hospitalisées au Danemark… la première ministre est venue à la télévision et leur a annoncé à partir de demain… je vous demande cela parce que même si nos hôpitaux sont encore vides nous avons vu l'exemple de l'Italie…"

      • Conditions de l'Anticipation : Une anticipation réussie nécessite une confiance forte de la population dans les institutions, une culture de santé publique, un sens de responsabilité collective, un système de surveillance opérationnel (détection précoce des signaux faibles, ex: surveillance des eaux usées), et un dialogue efficace avec les scientifiques.

      • "…il vous faut une confiance forte de la population dans ses institutions et son gouvernement… il vous faut une culture de santé publique… il vous faut sens de responsabilité collective il vous faut aussi un système de surveillance opérationnel…" "…la surveillance des EAU US peut être très utile là-dessus… la positivité de ces tests précède celle des premiers patients qui arriveront dans les hôpitaux à peu près d'une semaine donc là encore on est mieux en anticipation…"

      • Avantages des Mesures Précoces : Démarrer les mesures plus tôt permet d'avoir une réponse proportionnée et évite de devoir recourir aux mesures les plus fortes et pénalisantes lorsque les hôpitaux sont saturés.

      • "…la prise de mesures très précoce elle a vraiment beaucoup de vertus…"

      • Autonomie en Matière de Vaccins : Il est important de réfléchir à notre autonomie et indépendance vis-à-vis du développement et de la production de vaccins, compte tenu des investissements considérables faits par d'autres pays et des risques sur les conditions de distribution en cas de crise.

      • "…je pense qu'il faut évidemment réfléchir aussi à notre autonomie indépendance vis-à-vis du vaccin… Trump 2 avec barda a mis 525 millions d'euros sur un vaccin AR messag pour la grippe aviaire la seule chose que on ne sait pas aujourd'hui c'est à combien ils vont distribuer le vaccin…"

      • Organisation Territoriale des Soins et Place de l'Hôpital
      • Groupements Hospitaliers de Territoire (GHT) : L'idée de coordonner les hôpitaux au sein des GHT est jugée bonne et a été constamment explorée par le législateur depuis les années 1970. Cependant, la loi de 2016 n'a pas donné la personnalité morale aux GHT, et l'association des établissements privés, prévue par la loi, a été un "fiasco total".

      • "…sur les ght je dirais c'est un bon exemple de ce que l'on peut améliorer par des décisions politiques sans être trop dupe non plus… les ght doivent-ils'avoir comme on l'avait débattu à l'époque la personnalité morale ou non… l'établissement privés pouvaient être associés au ght mais la loi a disposé que seul les établissements publics créent des ght mais les établissements privés peuvent y être associés fiasco total de la loi là-dessus…"

      • Dichotomie Public/Privé : Il existe une dichotomie fondamentale entre l'hôpital public, qui assure la permanence des soins et l'équité territoriale, et les établissements privés, soumis aux règles de l'entreprise et d'une certaine rentabilité, qui ne jouent pas le même rôle.

      • "…il y a une dichotomie fondamentale entre le public et le privé le public il est plus partout et heureusement qu'il est là pour maintenir un semblant d'équité territoriale quand le secteur privé… est soumis a des règles de fonctionnement qui lui imposent une certaine concentration une certaine rentabilité et cetera sinon l'entreprise elle crève elle meurt elle disparaît…"

      • Réaffecter les Activités Rentables : La question se pose de savoir comment flécher les activités les plus lucratives (dialyse, cataractes, etc.), potentiellement influencées par la T2A, vers l'hôpital public.

      • "…les autorisations d'activités qui sont données on voit qu'on regarde rapidement qu'il y a beaucoup d'autorisations et notamment les plus lucratifs qui sont donnés à eu au à des établissements privés je pense aux dialyses je pense au au comment au cataractes et autres comment comment peut-on potentiellement flécher justement et notamment du fait de la T2A les la les parties rentable même si pour moi voilà on devrait pas forcément utiliser ce vocabulaire là mais c'est parties rentable vers vers l'hôpital public…"

      • Repenser la Place de l'Hôpital : L'hôpital ne doit plus être uniquement un lieu de "lits" (hospitalité) mais d'abord et avant tout un lieu de "soins" (plateaux techniques). Le virage ambulatoire est une tendance de fond. La question n'est plus tant le nombre de lits que la répartition des plateaux techniques.

      • "…on ne peut que parier que ça era grandissant dès lors la question n'est plus celle des lit à losto mais celle des plateau technique et de leur répartition… sortir de l'idée qu'un lit qu'un hôpital c'est un c'est un ensemble de service ou dans chaque service il a un patron pour dire que c'est un lieu où on doit faire du soin…"

      • Les Centres de Santé Publics : La possibilité pour les hôpitaux publics de créer des centres de santé est une très bonne chose, permettant d'offrir des portes d'entrée vers les plateaux techniques en dehors des murs de l'hôpital.

      • "…l'élaboration de la loi de 2016… cet inscription que les établissements publics donc les établissements publics de santé les EPS pouvaient créer des centres de santé a été inscrite dans la loi et je crois que c'est une très bonne chose qui va bien avec le GHT… la création de centre de santé publique… est certainement une très bonne chose pour le le futur…"

      • Cohérence des Projets Médicaux Territoriaux : Il est crucial d'évaluer et de mieux orienter les projets médicaux territoriaux des GHT pour assurer une répartition cohérente des activités de soins.

      • "…leur projet médicaux territoriaux mériterait d'être évalué vraiment et d'être mieux orienté parce que l'idée est bonne de la coordination on voit bien qu'on peut pas mettre de tout partout et que ce qui compte c'est le bon soin au bon moment là où il faut quand il le faut…"

      • Les Fermetures "Sauvages" et la Réflexion Collective : Les fermetures de services ou de lits, parfois perçues comme "sauvages" ou injustifiées, mettent en évidence la nécessité d'une réflexion collective sur la localisation et la répartition des plateaux techniques pour la France de demain. Cela implique parfois d'accepter des exceptions territoriales au nom de la solidarité.

      • "…cette impression pitoyable pathétique qu'on peut avoir de fermetures sauvages dont les justifications sont toujours un peu li soit à la force politique de tel ou tel dans le coin concerné soit à sa plus grande faiblesse… cette impression qu'il y a des fermetures sauvages injustifié alors même qu'elles peuvent peut-être être justifié mais on prend pas la peine d'expliquer ni pourquoi ni comment…" "…c'est de repenser… la localisation répartition pour la France de demain des plateaux techniques et dire de quoi avons-nous besoin pour combien de gens ici…"

      • Ressources Humaines : Attractivité et Management

      • Dévalorisation des Professions Paramédicales : La France est à la traîne en matière de délégation de tâches aux paramédicaux, ce qui est une solution envisagée mais qui se heurte à des obstacles.
      • "…que faire des paramédicaux et que leur donner comme responsabilité et est-ce qu'on a le choix notre pays à la traain he pour ça… les débats qu'on a actuellement sont des débats qui sont résolus depuis des décennies…"

      • Difficultés d'Attractivité du Personnel Paramédical : L'attractivité des personnels paramédicaux à l'hôpital public est un problème majeur, entraînant un recours coûteux à l'intérim. Les infirmières de pratique avancée (IPA) pourraient être une solution, notamment pour les soins non programmés, mais se heurtent à des freins (ancienneté, opposition de certains médecins).

      • "…une difficulté majeure qui était la question de l'attractivité des personnels paramédicaux… en terme de coût d'intérim avec des personnels du coup qui découvrent le service… on est passé de avant covid à peu près à 500000 à quasiment 2 millions d'euros de coût par hôpital du ght… est-ce que vous avez vous en tant que professionnel identifié des leviers pour justement répondre à cette crise de l'attractivité des personnels paramédicaux…" "…sur les infirmières à pratique avancé… non je n'ai pas d'infirmière à pratique avancée pour une raison simple… le problème c'est l'ancienneté… ça c'est le gros obstacle plus le le fait que le Conseil de l'Ordre soit et les syndicats de médecins soit contre les IPA…"

      • Situation des Praticiens à Diplôme Hors Union Européenne (PAD-HUE) : Ces médecins sont essentiels au fonctionnement de certains services, mais font face à des difficultés (rémunération, concurrence internationale, obstacles aux épreuves de validation des connaissances, difficulté d'installation).

      • "…j'ai réussi à remonter mon service d'urgence grâce à ces médecins étrangers sans médecin étranger le service d'urgence de saint-nistre est fermé… ils sont pas bien payés… concurrence avec d'autres pays l'Allemagne notamment… épreuves de validation des connaissances où on a vu que on avait des selon les spécialités il y avait une certaine inégalité… il y a beaucoup d'é obstacles…"

      • Management et Leadership à l'Hôpital : Les chefs de service et directeurs d'hôpitaux ne sont pas nécessairement formés au management et au leadership. Le rôle du chef de service, qui gère une "grosse entreprise", devrait être principalement celui de manager. La culture du "reporting" ne remplace pas le management. Il faut repenser la direction de l'hôpital.

      • "…est-ce que les médecins est-ce que les chefs de de service est-ce que les directeurs d'hôpitaux sont formés pour gérer l'organisation est-ce que vous êtes des managers… pour les chefs de service en fait c'est pareil c'est pas des gens qui ont fait des études pour être leader ou managers… la position de chef de service c'est une position alors ça dépend des services hein mais un service comme le mien avec une centaine de personnes avec 65000 patients par an c'est une grosse entreprise avec des millions de budgets c'est une grosse entreprise sauf que ce qu'on demande au chef de service c'est de voir des patients puis un peu quand il a le temps d'être chef de service or il va falloir bah dire qu'un chef de service un patron d'un service bah son métier principal et c'est le mien c'est d'être chef de service c'est plus de faire de la médecine… il va falloir changer la culture des chefs de service redonner les chefs de service…" "…on a la culture du reporting… et on pense que faire faire du reporting ça va remplacer le management ça va remplacer le leadership…" "…avoir des directions bicéphales… ou avoir un direct un président ou un directeur général ou l'inverse hein ou des secrétaires généraux bah c'est peut-être la solution à avoir pour avoir des hôpitaux qui fonctionnent…"

      • Valeurs et Éthique : Un Système en Érosion

      • Refuge de la République Universaliste : Le système de santé, et notamment l'hôpital public, est décrit comme un dernier refuge de la République universaliste et laïque où chacun devrait être soigné sans distinction. Ce système s'étiole.

      • "…notre système de santé et pas que l'hôpital public est un dernier refuge de la République universaliste et laïque où chacun est soigné sans distinction de race sans distinction de milieu social enfin jusqu'à récemment ce système s'étio…"

      • Importance de la Médecine d'Urgence pour Tous : Les urgences accueillent des patients qui n'ont nulle part où aller, même si leur situation n'est pas strictement médicale. C'est une partie du travail de l'urgentiste et cela soulève des questions éthiques et de valeurs.

      • "…faut faire attention de d'arrêter de fermer les urgences et puis après il y a un problème de valeur un problème éthique c'est-à-dire moi j'ai des patients qui on rien à faire aux urgences mais c'est des clodos qui sont dans la rue et je vais pas les laisser crever la nuit donc oui mais ça fait partie aussi hélas de mon boulot…"

      • Réaffirmer les Valeurs Républicaines : Il est temps que les valeurs de la République dans le domaine de la santé soient affirmées, déclinées et mises en œuvre, et pas seulement énoncées.

      • "…la nécessité de la nécessité de affirmer et d'illustrer par ce que l'on fait les valeurs qui sont celles de la République ça c'est la chose la plus importante et il est temps que ces valeurs de la République soi affirmées décliné mise en œuvre et pas seulement énoncé dans dans dans la présentation d'un projet de loi ou annoncer dans les cinq premières lignes d'un rapport et finalement abandonner sans que les conséquences en soient pleinement tirées…"

      • Prévention et Accès aux Soins de Proximité

      • Importance de la Prévention : Pour éviter que les patients n'arrivent en masse à l'hôpital, la prévention (alcool, tabac, addiction, sucre, sport) est essentielle, même si la France n'est pas la pire dans ce domaine.

      • "…pour éviter que les patients soient malades il faut faire de la prévention donc en général je vais le dire très rapidement c'est alcool tabac haute addiction sucre et sport…"

      • Centres de Santé Publics pour la Permanence des Soins : L'idée de centres de santé publics offrant une permanence de nuit, gérés par l'hôpital, est jugée très bonne pour éviter que les patients (notamment les parents avec de jeunes enfants) n'aient recours aux urgences faute d'autres solutions.

      • "…pourquoi on aurait pas des centres de santé publiques qui qui font de la permanence de nuit compris ce qui éviterait que les parents soient contraints d'aller à l'hôpital pour des choses dont ils savent que en réalité il pourrait être soigné autrement…" "…la création de centre de santé publique de centre de santé c'est une chose très particulière un centre de santé c'est pas une maison de santé un centre de santé c'est autre chose et les centres de santé qu'il soit créé par l'hôpital est certainement une très bonne chose pour le le futur…"

      Conclusion Partielle et Appels à l'Action

      Les auditions mettent en lumière des dysfonctionnements profonds et systémiques du système de santé, exacerbés par les crises sanitaires et le manque d'anticipation. Les solutions simplistes (davantage de lits, davantage de personnel) ne suffiront pas.

      Une réorganisation en profondeur est nécessaire, impliquant une réflexion sur l'organisation territoriale, la place de l'hôpital (focussur les soins et plateaux techniques plutôt que les lits), l'attractivité des professions de santé, la délégation de tâches, la prévention, et surtout une réaffirmation et une mise en œuvre concrète des valeurs de la République dans l'accès aux soins.

      L'exemple du Danemark en matière d'anticipation pandémique offre une piste sérieuse à explorer.

      Le document souligne également la nécessité de réponses plus rapides et ciblées aux questions posées, compte tenu de la complexité et de l'ancienneté des sujets débattus.

      La commission d'enquête est invitée à proposer des solutions innovantes et à remettre en cause certains paradigmes.

    1. synthèse détaillée des principaux thèmes et idées importantes issus des extraits de l'audition de François Rebsamen sur la politique d'aménagement du territoire du Gouvernement, présentée sous forme de document de synthèse.

      Document de Synthèse : Audition de François Rebsamen sur la Politique d'Aménagement du Territoire du Gouvernement

      Date de l'audition : (La date exacte n'est pas précisée, mais les références internes suggèrent une audition récente)

      Source : Extraits de "🔴 Audition de François Rebsamen sur la politique d’aménagement du territoire du Gouvernement"

      Intervenant principal : Monsieur François Rebsamen, (fonction non spécifiée dans les extraits, mais il s'agit d'un membre du Gouvernement en charge de la politique d'aménagement du territoire et des collectivités locales).

      Principaux interlocuteurs : Membres de la délégation (parlementaires, probablement de l'Assemblée Nationale, étant donné la référence à l'examen d'une proposition de loi issue du Sénat à l'Assemblée).

      Thèmes abordés :

      Finances des collectivités territoriales : Situation financière tendue, en particulier pour les départements, impact des politiques nationales et réformes du financement local.

      Dispositifs financiers spécifiques : Fond de sauvegarde, dispositif de lissage conjoncturel (Dilco), Caisse Nationale de Retraite des Collectivités Locales (CNRACL), DMTO (Droits de Mutation à Titre Onéreux).

      Relations État-Collectivités : Nécessité d'un partenariat renforcé, contractualisation, conférence financière des territoires.

      Organisation territoriale et décentralisation : Réflexions sur une éventuelle réforme structurelle, répartition des compétences, simplification de l'intercommunalité, propositions du rapport Éric Woerth.

      Statut de l'élu local : Découragement, freins à l'engagement, propositions d'amélioration des droits et obligations, protection contre la violence.

      Services publics en milieu rural : Rôle des Espaces France Services, financement et montée en puissance. Simplification administrative : Initiatives pour réduire la complexité des démarches pour les collectivités.

      Questions diverses : Marseille en Grand, risques naturels et adaptation, cybersécurité, rôle des agences de l'État, logement en ruralité, péréquation, mineurs non accompagnés (MNA), cumul des mandats. Synthèse des points clés et idées importantes :

      L'audition met en lumière la situation financière difficile de nombreuses collectivités territoriales, en particulier les départements.

      Un parlementaire d'entrée de jeu exprime cette préoccupation : "près d'un département sur trois serait éligible au fond de sauvegarde en 2025 contre seulement 14 l'année précédente cela illustre la fragilité croissante des finances départementales qui porte sur elle le poids de la crise sociale que traverse notre pays".

      Le président de département de France, François Sauvadet, a même alerté sur le risque d'une "véritable cessation de paiement de certains départements".

      Le dispositif de lissage conjoncturel (Dilco), remplaçant un fonds de réserve controversé, est présenté comme une contribution des collectivités au redressement des finances publiques à hauteur d'un milliard d'euros en 2025.

      L'incertitude sur la liste des collectivités concernées et le montant de leur contribution est une source de préoccupation. Les dernières estimations évoquent "2099 collectivités et groupements dont 1906 communes et 131 nepci".

      Le relèvement progressif du taux de cotisation employeur à la CNRACL sur 4 ans est un autre sujet de préoccupation majeur pour les collectivités, en particulier les départements et les petites communes, en raison de son coût "parfois considérable".

      Une série d'auditions est prévue pour explorer des pistes de réforme structurelle de la caisse afin de ne pas aggraver davantage la situation financière des collectivités employeurs.

      Ces tensions financières récurrentes soulignent "les limites du modèle actuel de financement des collectivités articulé autour de l'attribution unilatérale de dotation d’État ou de part de fiscalité nationale".

      L'idée d'une plus grande autonomie fiscale, donnant aux collectivités un pouvoir de taux ou d'assiette sur une taxe à déterminer, est avancée comme une voie à explorer pour renforcer le principe d'autonomie financière reconnu par la Constitution (article 72-2).

      Monsieur Rebsamen confirme l'intention de réunir une conférence financière des territoires dans les prochaines semaines avec la ministre en charge des comptes publics.

      Cette conférence, qui devrait avoir lieu "début avril", vise à établir un état des lieux et, potentiellement lors d'une seconde session fin juin, d'entrer dans une phase de contractualisation triennale (sur 3 ans) pour offrir une meilleure prévisibilité des recettes aux collectivités, alignée sur les engagements budgétaires européens jusqu'en 2029.

      Sur l'organisation territoriale, le ministre indique qu'il n'y aura "pas de réforme structurelle de l'organisation territoriale d'ici 2027", estimant que cela relève d'une décision majeure "digne d'un programme présidentiel". Il partage néanmoins à titre personnel une idée : les assemblées départementales pourraient être composées de représentants des EPCI (Établissements Publics de Coopération Intercommunale) pour une représentation plus juste et une vision plus large de l'intérêt départemental.

      Cela permettrait "d'éviter des doublons" et potentiellement de supprimer l'élection départementale directe par canton, optant pour une désignation au second degré.

      Le découragement des élus locaux et les difficultés à constituer des listes de candidats, en particulier dans certaines communes, sont des sujets de vive préoccupation. L'audition aborde la nécessité de donner un signal fort et de lever les freins à l'engagement public local.

      Une proposition de loi sur le statut de l'élu, issue du Sénat, sera examinée à l'Assemblée Nationale "au prochain trimestre" (mai).

      Ce texte pourrait être enrichi par des dispositions améliorant les droits des élus (handicap, retraite, reconversion, formation), clarifiant leurs droits et obligations, et renforçant leur protection.

      La violence envers les élus est spécifiquement abordée, avec un rappel des avancées législatives récentes (renforcement des sanctions pénales, extension de la protection fonctionnelle).

      Cependant, il est souligné que malgré ces mesures, de nombreux élus ne connaissent pas leurs droits et les dispositifs de protection.

      Le ministre s'engage à améliorer la communication sur ces sujets, notamment via les préfets et une potentielle refonte du Guide des élus. Il insiste sur la nécessité d'une réponse pénale plus ferme et rapide face aux agressions.

      Les Espaces France Services sont présentés comme un succès dans l'accès aux services publics en milieu rural, mais leur succès même les rend victimes de leur saturation, nécessitant un accompagnement financier accru.

      Le ministre confirme l'objectif de 3000 espaces et la volonté de porter les subventions de fonctionnement à 45 000 € cette année et 50 000 € l'an prochain.

      Plusieurs points spécifiques sont également soulevés :

      • Marseille en Grand : Le ministre défend l'avancement du plan malgré les retards initiaux (1,3% de crédits consommés selon un rapport de la Cour des comptes de 2024, passé à 30% un an et demi plus tard), expliqués par la complexité de la mise en place des établissements publics. Il note l'absence pour l'instant d'un volet spécifique sur la revitalisation économique du centre-ville.

      • DMTO et péréquation : La possibilité pour les départements d'augmenter les DMTO est une mesure d'urgence mais non durable. La question de la péréquation des DMTO entre départements riches et pauvres est soulevée comme une solution de solidarité, coûteuse pour certains départements mais "coûte zéro à l'État". Le ministre l'entend et s'engage à en discuter avec l'Association des Départements de France.

      • Mineurs Non Accompagnés (MNA) : Considérée comme une compétence régalienne de l'État, la prise en charge des MNA pèse lourdement sur les budgets départementaux, en particulier les plus modestes. Un effort accru de l'État est demandé. Le ministre en est "attentif".

      • Risques naturels et cybersécurité : L'idée d'une péréquation du risque climatique est jugée "excellente", potentiellement via une réforme de la DSU ou un fonds dédié. L'extension du FNADT à la cybersécurité est envisagée pour aider les collectivités à renforcer leur résilience.

      • Loi 3DS et différenciation territoriale : Le ministre est "très partisan du fait qu'on puisse aller sur une différenciation territoriale" et souhaite que les préfets appliquent mieux les possibilités offertes par la loi 3DS, même si les "doctrines différentes entre certains services de l’État dans des départements" mitoyens peuvent surprendre.

      • Agences de l'État : Leur rôle et leur coût sont questionnés, avec le souhait que leur action soit mieux alignée sur les orientations politiques définies par le gouvernement et qu'on évite les doublons avec l'ingénierie offerte par les collectivités elles-mêmes (départements, métropoles).

      • Logement en ruralité : Une réflexion est en cours, notamment au sein de l'ANRU, pour intervenir davantage dans les petites et moyennes villes ayant des problèmes de logement et d'insalubrité. Des fonds spécifiques (100 millions d'euros mentionnés) sont alloués, en complément de la DETR.

      • Fiscalité locale et lien citoyen : La dépendance des communes à la taxe foncière sur les propriétés bâties, qui ne touche qu'une partie des résidents, est jugée intenable à terme. L'idée de trouver un "nouveau lien de résidence plafonné" est avancée comme une piste de réflexion.

      • DETR : Le ministre défend fermement le maintien de la DETR, outil essentiel pour les communes rurales, et s'oppose à toute fusion avec d'autres enveloppes (Dsil, Fond Vert).

      • Cumul des mandats : Le ministre est favorable au cumul d'un mandat exécutif local et d'un mandat national, regrettant que certains parlementaires n'aient pas une connaissance du terrain issue d'une expérience d'élu local.

      • Assurabilité des communes : Suite aux sinistres climatiques et urbains, de nombreuses communes peinent à trouver des assurances. Des "assises de l'assurabilité" sont prévues (Rocloire) pour trouver des solutions, potentiellement via une mutualisation, le renforcement des outils de solidarité nationale et la dynamisation du marché de l'assurance.

      En conclusion, l'audition dépeint un paysage complexe pour les collectivités locales, marqué par des tensions financières, la nécessité d'adapter les politiques aux enjeux contemporains (climatiques, sociaux, sécurité), et une réflexion continue sur la relation État-collectivités et l'organisation territoriale.

      La volonté d'améliorer la prévisibilité financière via la contractualisation et de renforcer le statut de l'élu local sont des priorités affichées par le ministre, tout en reconnaissant les limites des réformes structurelles possibles dans le contexte politique actuel.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity)

      *This study examines the reorganization of the microtubule (MT) cytoskeleton during early neuronal development, specifically focusing on the establishment of axonal and dendritic polarity. Utilizing advanced microscopy techniques, the authors demonstrate that stable microtubules in early neurites initially exhibit a plus-end-out orientation, attributed to their connection with centrioles. Subsequently, these microtubules are released and undergo sliding, resulting in a mixed-polarity orientation in early neurites. Furthermore, the study elegantly illustrates the spatial segregation of microtubules in dendrites based on polarity and stability. The experiments are rigorously executed, and the microscopy data are presented with exceptional clarity. The following are my primary concerns that warrant further consideration by the authors. *

      1. Potential Bias in the MotorPAINT Assay: Kinesin-1 and kinesin-3 motors exhibit distinct preferences for post-translationally modified (PTM) microtubules. Given that kinesin-1 preferentially binds to acetylated microtubules over tyrosinated microtubules in the MotorPAINT assay, the potential for bias in the results arises. Have the authors explored the use of kinesin-3, which favors tyrosinated microtubules, to corroborate the observed microtubule polarity?

      We thank the reviewer for the careful assessment of our manuscript. As the reviewer noted, it has indeed been demonstrated that kinesin-1 prefers microtubules marked by acetylation (Cai et al., PLoS Biol 2009; Reed et al., Curr Biol 2006) and kinesin-3 prefers microtubules marked by tyrosination in cells (Guedes-Dias et al., Curr Biol 2019; Tas et al., Neuron 2017); however, these preferences are limited in vitro, as demonstrated for example in Sirajuddin et al. (Nat Cell Biol 2014). When motor-PAINT was introduced, it was verified that purified kinesin-1 moves over both acetylated and tyrosinated microtubules with no apparent preference in this assay (Tas et al., Neuron 2017). This could be due to the more in vitro-like nature of the motor-PAINT assay (e.g. some MAPs may be washed away) and/or because of the addition of Taxol during the gentle fixation step, which converts all microtubules into those preferred by kinesin-1. We will clarify this in the text.

      Planned revisions:

      • We will clarify the lack of kinesin-1 selectivity in motor-PAINT assays in the text by adding the following sentence in the main text when introducing motor-PAINT: Importantly, while kinesin-1 has been shown to selectively move on stable, highly-modified microtubules in cells (Cai et al., PLoS Biol 2009; Reed et al., Curr Biol 2006), this is not the case after motor-PAINT sample preparation (Tas et al., Neuron 2017).

      Axon-Like Neurites in Stage 2b Neurons: The observation of axon-like neurites in Stage 2b neurons, characterized by an (almost) uniformly plus-end-out microtubule organization, is noteworthy. Have the authors confirmed this polarity using end-binding (EB) protein tracking (e.g., EB1, EB3) in Stage 2b neurons? Do these neurites display distinct morphological features, such as variations in width? Furthermore, do they consistently differentiate into axons when tracked over time using live-cell EB imaging, rather than the MotorPAINT assay? Could stable microtubule anchoring impede free sliding in these neurites or restrict sliding into them? Investigating microtubule sliding dynamics in these axon-like neurites would provide valuable insights.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this finding. Early in development, cultured neurons are known to transiently polarize and have axon-like neurites that may or may not develop into the future axon (Burute et al., Sci Adv 2022; Schelski & Bradke, Sci Adv 2022; Jacobson et al., Neuron 2006). In the absence of certain molecular or physical factors (e.g. Burute et al., Sci Adv 2022; Randlett et al., Neuron 2011), this transient polarization is seemingly random and as such, we do not expect the axon-like neurites in stage 2b neurons to necessarily become the axon. Interestingly, anchoring stable microtubules in a specific neurite using cortically-anchored StableMARK (Burute et al., Sci Adv 2022) or stabilizing microtubules in a specific neurite using Taxol (Witte et al., JCB 2008) has been shown to promote axon formation, but these stable microtubules have slower turnover (perhaps necessitating the use of laser severing as in Yau et al., J Neurosci 2016) and may not always bear EB comets given that EB comets are less commonly seen at the ends of stable microtubules (Jansen et al., JCB 2023).

      Planned revision:

      • We will add additional details to the text to clarify the likely transient nature of this polarization in agreement with previous literature and specify that they are otherwise not morphologically distinct.
      • We will perform additional EB3 tracking experiments in Stage 2b neurons to examine potential differences between neurites.

      *Taxol and Microtubule Sliding: Taxol-induced microtubule stabilization is known to induce the formation of multiple axons. Does taxol treatment diminish microtubule sliding and prevent polarity reversal in minor neurites, thereby facilitating their development into axons? *

      We thank the reviewer for this interesting suggestion. Taxol converts all microtubules into stable microtubules. Given that the initial neurites tend to be of mixed polarity, having stable microtubules pointing the "wrong" way may impede sliding and polarity sorting. Alternatively, since it is precisely the stable microtubules that we see sliding between and within neurites using StableMARK, Taxol may also increase the fraction of microtubules undergoing sliding. Because of this, it is not straightforward to predict how Taxol affects microtubule (re-)orientation and sliding. Preliminary motor-PAINT experiments do suggest that the multiple axons induced by Taxol treatment all contain predominantly plus-end-out microtubules, as expected, and that this is the case from early in development. We will further develop these findings to include them in our manuscript.

      Planned revision:

      • We have already performed some experiments in which we treat neurons with 10 nM Taxol and verify that we observe the formation of multiple axons by motor-PAINT. We will perform additional experiments in which we add this low dose of Taxol to the cells and determine its effect on microtubule sliding dynamics.

      *Sorting of Minus-End-Out Microtubules (MTs) in Developing Axons: Traces of minus-end-out MTs are observed proximal to the soma in both Stage 2b axon-like neurites and Stage 3 developing axons (Figure S4). Does this indicate a clearance mechanism for misoriented MTs during development? If so, is this sorting mechanism specific to axons? Could dynein be involved? Pharmacological inhibition of dynein (e.g., ciliobrevin-D or dynarrestin) could assess whether blocking dynein disrupts uniform MT polarity and axon formation. *

      We indeed think that a clearance mechanism is involved for removing misoriented microtubules in the axon after axon specification. Many motor proteins have been implicated in the polarity sorting of microtubules in neurons and for axons, dynein is believed to play a role (Rao et al., Cell Rep 2017; del Castillo et al., eLife 2015; Schelski & Bradke, Sci Adv 2022). A few of these studies already employed ciliobrevin, noting that it increases the fraction of minus-end-out microtubules in axons (Rao et al., Cell Rep 2017) and reduces the rate of retrograde flow of microtubules in immature neurites (Schelski & Bradke, Sci Adv 2022). These findings are in line with the suggestion of the reviewer. Interestingly, however, as we highlight in the discussion, the motility we observe for polarity reversal is extremely slow on average (~60 nm/minute) because the microtubule end undergoes bursts of motility and periods in which it appears to be tethered and rather immobile. Given that most neurites are non-axon-like, we assume these sliding events are mostly not taking place in axons or axon-like neurites. These events may thus be orchestrated by other motor proteins (e.g. kinesin-1, kinesin-2, kinesin-5, kinesin-6, and kinesin-12) that have been implicated in microtubule polarity sorting in neurons. We do observe retrograde sliding of stable microtubules in these neurites at a median speed of ~150 nm/minute, which is again much slower than typical motor speeds and occurs in almost all neurites and not specifically in one or two axon-like neurites. It is thus unclear which motors may be involved, and it is difficult to predict how any drug treatments would affect microtubule polarity.

      Dissecting the mechanisms of microtubule sliding will require many more experiments and will first require the recruitment and training of a new PhD student or postdoc. Therefore, we feel this falls outside the scope of the current work, which carefully maps the microtubule organization during neuronal development and demonstrates the active polarity reversal of stable microtubules during this process.

      Planned revision:

      • We will expand our discussion of the potential mechanisms facilitating polarity sorting in axons and axon-like neurites in the discussion.

      Impact of Kinesin-1 Rigor Mutants on MT Polarity and Dynamics: Would the expression of kinesin-1 rigor mutants alter MT dynamics and polarity? Validation with alternative methods, such as microtubule photoconversion, would be beneficial.

      It is important to note that StableMARK and its effects on microtubule stability have been extensively verified in the paper in which it was introduced (Jansen et al., JCB 2023). At low expression levels (where StableMARK has a speckled distribution along microtubules), StableMARK does not alter the stability of microtubules (e.g., they are still disassembled in response to serum starvation), alter their post-translational modification status or their distribution in the cell, or impede the transport of cargoes along them. Given that we chose to image neurons with very low expression levels of StableMARK (as inferred by the speckled distribution along microtubules), we expect its effects on the microtubule cytoskeleton to be minimal.

      Planned revision:

      • We will clarify the potential effects of StableMARK in the manuscript. We will perform experiments with photoactivatable tubulin to examine whether we still see microtubules that live for over 2 hours. We will furthermore examine whether it allows us to see microtubule sliding between neurites similar to work performed in the Gelfand lab (Lu et al., Curr Biol 2013).

      *Molecular Motors Driving MT Sliding: Which specific motors drive MT sliding in the soma and neurites? If a motor drives minus-end-out MTs into neurites, it must be plus-end-directed. The discussion should clarify the polarity of the involved motors to strengthen the conclusions. *

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this point and will improve our discussion to clarify the polarity of the involved motors.

      Planned revision:

      • We will expand our discussion of the motors potentially involved in sliding microtubules when revising the manuscript.

      Stability of Centriole-Derived Microtubules: Microtubules emanating from centrioles are typically young and dynamic. How do they acquire acetylation and stability at an early stage? Do centrioles exhibit active EB1/EB3 comets in Stage 1/2a neurons? If these microtubules are severed from centrioles, could knockdown of MT-severing proteins (e.g., Katanin, Spastin, Fidgetin) alter microtubule polarity during neuronal development? A brief discussion would be valuable.

      We thank the reviewer for raising these interesting questions and suggestions. As suggested, we will include a brief discussion of these issues. What is known about the properties of stable microtubules is limited, so it is currently unclear how they are made. For example, we do not know if they are converted from labile microtubules or nucleated by a distinct pathway. If they are nucleated by a distinct pathway, do these microtubules grow in a similar manner as labile microtubules and do they have EB comets at their plus-ends (given that EB compacts the lattice (Zhang et al., Cell 2015, PNAS 2018) and stable microtubules have an expanded lattice in cells (de Jager et al., JCB 2025))? If they are converted, does something first cap their plus-end to limit further growth (given that EB comets are rarely observed at the ends of stable microtubules (Jansen et al., JCB 2023))?

      We also do not know how the activity of the tubulin acetyltransferase αTAT1 is regulated. Is its access to the microtubule lumen regulated or is its enzymatic activity stimulated by some means (e.g., microtubule lattice conformation or a molecular factor)?

      We find the possibility that microtubule severing enzymes release these stable microtubules from the centrioles very exciting and hope to test the effects of their absence on microtubule polarity in the future. We will discuss this in the manuscript as suggested.

      Planned revision:

      • We will expand our discussion about the centriole-associated stable microtubules in the revised manuscript. Minor Points

      • In Movies 3 and 4, please use arrowheads or pseudo-coloring to highlight microtubules detaching from specific points. In Movie 5, please mark the stable microtubule that rotates within the neurite. These annotations would enhance clarity.

      Planned revision:

      • We will add arrowheads/traces to the movies to enhance clarity.* *

      The title states: 'Stable microtubules predominantly oriented minus-end-out in the minor neurites of Stage 2b and 3 neurons.' However, given that the minus-end-out percentage increases after nocodazole treatment but only reaches a median of 0.48, 'predominantly' may be an overstatement. Please consider rewording.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this mistake and will adjust the statement to better reflect the median value.

      Planned revision:

      • We will reword this statement in the revised text.

      *Please compare the StableMARK system with the K560Rigor-SunTag approach described by Tanenbaum et al. (2014). What are the advantages of StableMARK over the SunTag method? *

      While the SunTag is certainly a powerful tool to visualize molecules at low copy number, we believe that StableMARK is more appropriate than the K560Rigor-SunTag tool for our assays due to two main reasons. Firstly, K560Rigor-SunTag is based on the E236A kinesin-1 mutation, while StableMARK is based on the G234A mutation. These are both rigor mutations of kinesin-1 but behave differently; the E236A mutant is strongly bound to the microtubule in an ATP-like state (neck linker docked), while the G234A mutant is also strongly bound, but not in an ATP-like state (Rice et al., Nature 1999). This means that they may have different effects on or preferences of the microtubule lattice. Indeed, while StableMARK (G234A) has been shown to preferentially bind microtubules with an expanded lattice (Jansen et al., JCB 2023; de Jager et al., JCB 2025), this may not be the case for the E236A mutant. In support of this, it has been shown that, while nucleotide free kinesin-1 can expand the lattice of GDP-microtubules at high concentrations (>10% lattice occupancy) in vitro (Peet et al., Nat Nanotechnol 2018; Shima et al., JCB 2018), kinesin-1 in the ATP-bound state does not maintain this expanded lattice (Shima et al., JCB 2018). Thus, we expect the kinesin-1 rigor used by Tanenbaum et al. (Cell 2014) to not be specific for stable microtubules (with an expanded lattice) in cells. In addition, given the dense packing of microtubules in neurites (not well-established in developing neurites, but with an inter-microtubule distance of ~25 nm in axons and ~65 nm in dendrites (Chen et al., Nature 1992)), the very large size of the SunTag could be problematic. The K560Rigor-SunTag tool from Tanenbaum et al. (Cell 2014) is bound by up to 24 copies of GFP (each ~3 nm in size), meaning that it may obstruct or be obstructed by the dense microtubule network in neurites.

      Planned revision:

      • Given that, unlike the K560Rigor-SunTag construct, StableMARK has been carefully validated as a live-cell marker for stable microtubules, we believe that the above discussion goes beyond the scope of the manuscript.* *

      Microscopy data (Movies 2, 3, and 4) show microtubule bundling with StableMARK labeling, which is absent in tubulin immunostaining. Could this be an artifact of ectopic StableMARK expression? If so, a brief note addressing this potential effect would be beneficial.

      As with any overexpression, there is a risk of artifacts. We feel that in the cells presented, the risk of artifacts is limited because we have chosen neurons expressing StableMARK at very low levels. Prior work has demonstrated that in cells where StableMARK has a speckled appearance on microtubules, it has limited undesired effects on stable microtubules or the cargoes moving along them (Jansen et al., JCB 2023). Perhaps some of the apparent differences in the amount of bundling can be explained in that the expansion microscopy images shown may have less apparent bundling because of the improved z-resolution and thus optical sectioning. Any z-slice imaged using expansion microscopy will contain fewer microtubules, so bundling may be less obvious. If we compare the amount of bundling seen in StableMARK expressing cells with the amount of bundling of acetylated microtubules (a marker for stable microtubules) in DMSO/nocodazole treated (non-electroporated) cells imaged by confocal microscopy in Figure S7, we feel that the difference is not so large. Nonetheless, we can briefly address this potential effect in the text.

      Planned revision:

      • We will improve the transparency of the manuscript by briefly mentioning this in the text. Reviewer #1 (Significance)

      It is an important paper challenging established ideas of microtubule organization in neurons. It is important to the wide audience of cell and neurobiologists.__ __

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity)

      *The manuscript uses state-of-the-art microscopy (e,g. expansion microscopy, motorPAINT) to observe microtubule organization during early events of differentiation of cultured rat hippocampal neurons. The authors confirm previous work showing that microtubules in neurites and dendrites are of mixed polarity whereas they are of uniform plus-end-out polarity in axons. They show that stable microtubules (labeled with antibody against acetylated tubulin) are located in the central region of neurite cross-section across all differentiation stages. They show that acetylated microtubules are associated with centrioles early in differentiation but less so at later stages. And they show that stable microtubules can move from one neurite to another, presumably by microtubule sliding. *

      Comments

      1. *I found the manuscript difficult to read. There are lots of "segregations" of microtubules occurring over these stages of neuronal differentiation: segregation between the center of a neurite and the outer edge with respect to neurite cross-section, segregation between the region proximal to the cell body and the region distal to the cell body, and segregation over time (stages). The authors don't do a good job of distinguishing these and reporting the major findings in a way that is clear and straightforward. *

      We thank the reviewer for their feedback and will go over the text to make it easier to read. Within neurites, we use the word 'segregated' in the manuscript to mean that the microtubules form two spatially separate populations across the width of the neurites (i.e., their cross-section if viewed in 3D). Because of variability seen in the neurites of this stage, this segregation does not always present as a peripheral vs. central enrichment of the different populations of microtubules as we sometimes observed two side-by-side populations instead. We will make sure that we properly define this in the manuscript to avoid any confusion.

      When discussing other types of segregation, we tried to use different wording such as when discussing the proximal-distal distribution of microtubules with different orientations in axon-like neurites in this excerpt:

      Sometimes these axons and axon-like neurites had a small bundle of minus-end-out microtubules proximal to the soma (Figure S4). This suggests that plus-end-out uniformity emerges distally first in these neurites, perhaps by retrograde sliding of these minus-end-out microtubules (see Discussion).

      When discussing changes related to a particular stage, we instead aimed to list which stage we were talking about, such as seen in the discussion:

      Emerging neurites of early stage 2 neurons already contain microtubules of both orientations and these are typically segregated. These emerging neurites also contain segregated networks of acetylated (stable) and tyrosinated (labile) microtubules. In later stage 2, stage 3, and stage 4 neurons, stable (nocodazole-resistant) microtubules are oriented more minus-end-out compared to the total (untreated) population of microtubules; however, in early stage 2 neurons, stable microtubules are preferentially oriented plus-end-out, likely because their minus-ends are still anchored at the centrioles at this stage. The fraction of anchored stable microtubules decreases during development, while the appearance of short stumps of microtubules attached to the centrioles suggests that these microtubules may be released by severing.

      We appreciate the reviewer's concerns and will review the text carefully for clarity.

      Planned revision:

      • We will carefully go through the text when revising the manuscript to ensure that these distinctions are clear and consider using synonyms or other descriptors where they would enhance clarity.

      *The major focus is on microtubule changes between stages 2a and 2b. This is introduced in the text and in the methods but not reflected in Figure 1A which should serve as an orientation of what is to come. It would be helpful to move the information about stages to the main text and/or Figure 1A. *

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out and will be more explicit about the distinction between stages 2a and 2b in the main text and make the suggested change to Figure 1A.

      Planned revision:

      • We will incorporate the suggested changes in the revised manuscript.

      For Figure 1, the conclusions are generally supported by the data with the exception of the data for stage 2b in 1D and 1H. The images in D and the line scan in H suggest that for stage 2b, minus-end-out are on one edge whereas the plus-end-out are on the other edge of the neurite cross-section. But this is only true for one region along this example neurite. If the white line in D was moved proximal or distal along the neurite, the line scan for stage 2b would look like those of stages 2a and 3.

      We thank the reviewer for noting this in the figure. For these earlier stages in neuronal development, the distribution of different types of microtubules within the neurite is more variable and does not always adhere to the central-peripheral distribution described for more mature neurons (Tas et al., Neuron 2017). We did not intend to suggest that neurites of stage 2b neurons consistently have a different radial distribution of microtubules of opposite orientation, but rather that microtubules of the same orientation tend to bundle together. Sometimes this bundling produces a central or peripheral enrichment, as described for mature neurons (Tas et al., Neuron 2017) and as seen in Figure 1D-F at certain points along the length of the neurites, and sometimes the bundling simply produces two side-by-side populations. To reflect this diversity, we chose two different examples in the figure. The line scans presented in Figure 1H were taken approximately at the midpoint of the presented ROIs. In addition, as our imaging in this case is two-dimensional, we do not want to make explicit claims about the radial distribution of the different populations of microtubules.

      Planned revision:

      • We will adjust our description of this figure in the main text to be more explicit about how we interpret these results. We will ensure that it is apparent that we do not think there is a specific radial distribution of microtubules depending on the developmental stage.

      *For Figure 2, I found it difficult to relate panels A-F to panels G-J. I recommend combining 2G-J with 3A-B for a separate figure focused on the orientation of stable microtubules across different stages. *

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and will take it into consideration when preparing the revised manuscript, making sure that our figure organization is well justified.

      For Figure 3, it is difficult to reconcile the traces with the corresponding images - that is, there are many acetylated microtubules in the top view image that appear to contact centrioles but are not in the tracing. Perhaps the tracings would more accurately reflect the localization of the acetylated microtubules in the top view images if a stack of images was shown rather than the max projections. Or if the authors were to stain for CAMSAPs to identify non-centrosomal microtubules. I find the data unconvincing but I do believe their conclusion because it is consistent with published data in the field. The data need to be quantified.

      We thank the reviewer for noting this. Importantly, the tracing was done on a three-dimensional stack of images, whereas we present maximum projections of a few slices in Figure 3C for easy visualization. Projection artifacts indeed make it look as though some additional microtubules are attached to the centrioles, whereas in the three-dimensional stacks it is apparent that they are not. We can include the z-stacks as supplementary material so that readers can also verify this themselves. We will additionally clarify that this is the case in the text related to Figure 3C.

      Planned revision:

      • We will better explain how the tracing was done in the methods section and make a brief note of the projection artifacts in the main text.
      • We will also include the z-stacks as supplementary data.

      *I have a major concern with the conclusions of Figure 4. Here the authors use StableMARK to argue that microtubules do not depolymerize in one neurite and then repolymerize in another neurite but rather can be moved (presumably by sliding) from one neurite to another. The problem is that StableMARK-decorated microtubules do not depolymerize. So yes, StableMARK-decorated microtubules can move from one neurite to another but that does not say anything about what normally happens to microtubules during neuronal differentiation. In addition, the text says that the focus on Figure 4 is on how microtubules change between stages 2a and 2b but data is only shown for stage 2b. *

      As noted by the reviewer, StableMARK can indeed hyperstabilize microtubules when over-expressed; however, it is important to note that this strongly depends on the level of overexpression of the marker. This is discussed in detail in the paper introducing StableMARK, where it is described that at low expression levels, StableMARK does not alter the stability of microtubules (i.e., StableMARK decorated microtubules can still depolymerize/disassemble and they are disassembled in response to serum starvation), alter their post-translational modification status or their distribution in the cell, or impede the transport of cargoes along them (Jansen et al. JCB 2023). Despite this, we agree that it is important to validate these findings in our experimental system (primary rat hippocampal neurons) and so we plan to perform experiments with photoactivatable tubulin to verify the long lifetime of stable microtubules and aim to also observe microtubule sliding (similar to assays performed in the Gelfand lab (Lu et al., Curr Biol 2013)) in the absence of StableMARK.

      Planned revision:

      • We will confirm our findings using photoactivatable tubulin. We hope to demonstrate the long lifetime of the microtubules in this case and observe the sliding of microtubules by another means.
      • We will also revise the text to better explain the potential impacts of StableMARK and that we chose the lowest expressing cells we could find so early after electroporation.

      *The data are largely descriptive and it is of course important to first describe things before one can dive into mechanism. But most of the findings confirm previous work and new findings are limited to showing that e.g. microtubule segregation appears earlier than previously observed. *

      Our study is the first to use Motor-PAINT to carefully map changes in microtubule orientations during neuronal development. Furthermore, it is the first to use the recently introduced live-cell marker for stable microtubules to directly demonstrate the active polarity reversal of stable microtubules during this process.

      Optional: It would be nice if the authors could investigate some potential mechanisms. For example, does knockdown or knockout of severing enzymes prevent the loss of centriolar microtubules shown in Figure 3? Does knockdown or knockout of kinesin-2 or EB1 prevent the reorientation of microtubules (Chen et al 2014)?

      We agree with the reviewer that these are exciting experiments to perform, and we hope to unravel the mechanisms underlying microtubule reorganization in future work. However, this will require many more experiments, as well as the recruitment and training of a new PhD student or postdoc, given that the first author has left the lab. Therefore, we feel that this falls outside the scope of the current work, which carefully maps the microtubule organization during neuronal development and demonstrates the active polarity reversal of stable microtubules during this process.

      *Overall, the methods are presented in such a way that they can be reproduced. One exception is in the motor paint sample prep section: is it three washes for 1 min each or three washes over 1 min? *

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this mistake and will adjust this step in the methods section accordingly.

      Planned revision:

      • We will revise the methods section to read 'washed three times for 1 minute each'.

      *No statistical analysis is provided. The spread of the data in the violin plots is very large and it is difficult to ascertain how strongly one should make conclusions based on different data spreads between different conditions. *

      We thank the reviewer for noting this and will add statistical tests to the graphs showing the fraction of minus-end-out microtubules in different stages/conditions.

      Planned revision:

      • We will include statistical tests in the specified graphs.

      For Figure S5, the excluded data (axons and axon-like neurites) should also be shown.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and will include this data.

      Planned revision:

      • We will adjust this supplemental figure to also include the specified data.

      *For the movies, it would be helpful to have the microtubule moving from one neurite to another identified in some way as it is difficult to tell what is going on. *

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out.

      Planned revision:

      • We will trace the microtubule in this movie to enhance clarity.* * Reviewer #2 (Significance)

      A strength of the study is the state-of-the-art microscopy (e,g. expansion microscopy, motorPAINT) and its application to a classic experimental model (rat hippocampal neurons). The information will be useful to those interested in the details of neuronal differentiation. A limitation of the study is that it appears to mostly confirm previous findings in the field (microtubule segregation, loss of centriolar anchoring, microtubule sliding). The advance to the field is that the manuscript shows that these events occur earlier in differentiation that previously known.

      • *

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity)

      *The study by Iwanski and colleagues explores the establishment of the specific organisation of the neuronal microtubule cytoskeleton during neuronal differentiation. They use cultures of dissociated primary hippocampal rat neurons as a model system, and apply the optimised motor-PAINT technology, expansion microscopy/immunofluorescence and live cell imaging to investigate the polarity establishment and the distribution of differentially modified microtubules during early development. *

      They show that in young neurons microtubules are of mixed polarity, but at this stage already the stable (acetylated) microtubules are preferentially oriented plus-end-out, and are connected to the centrioles. In later stages, the stable microtubules are released from the centrioles and reverse their orientation by moving around inside the cell body and the neurites.

      *Overall, the conclusions are well supported by the presented data. The experiments are conducted thoroughly, the figures are clearly presented (for minor comments, see below) and the manuscript is well and clearly written. *

      Major comments

      1. What is the proportion of neurons with different types of neurites (axon-like, non-axon-like) in stage 2b? (middle paragraph page 5 and Fig 1E). Please provide a quantification. * How was the quantification in Fig 2B-D-F done? Why do the curves all start at 0? Please provide a scheme explaining these measurements. Furthermore, the data in Fig 2B do not reflect the statement "the segregation (...) was less evident" than in later stages (top of page 6): while it is less evident than in stage 2b, it is extremely similar to stage 3. Please revise accordingly.*

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out these important details. We will make the suggested changes in the text, adding the proportion of neurons with different types of neurites and adjusting statement mentioned.

      The radial intensity distributions were quantified as described in Katrukha et al. (eLife 2021). In the methods section, we describe the process in brief:

      To analyze the radial distribution of acetylated and tyrosinated microtubules in expanded neurites, deconvolved image stacks were processed using custom scripts in ImageJ (v1.54f) and MATLAB (R2024b) as described in detail elsewhere (Katrukha et al., 2021). Briefly, on maximum intensity projections (XY plane), we drew polylines of sufficient thickness (300 px) to segment out neurite portions 44 µm (10 µm when corrected for expansion factor) in length proximal to the cell soma. Using Selection > Straighten on the corresponding z-stacks generated straightened B-spline interpolated stacks of the neurite sections. These z-stacks were then resliced perpendicularly to the neurite axis (YZ-plane) to visualize the neurite cross-section. From this, we could semi-automatically find the boundary of the neurite in each slice using first a bounding rectangle that encompasses the neurite (per slice) and then a smooth closed spline (approximately oval). To build a radial intensity distribution from neurite border to center, closed spline contours were then shrunken pixel by pixel in each YZ-slice while measuring ROI area and integrated fluorescence intensity. From this, we could ascertain the average fluorescence intensity per contour iteration, allowing us to calculate a radial intensity distribution by calculating the radius corresponding to each area (assuming the neurite cross-section is circular).

      The curves thus all start at 0 because no intensity "fits" into a circle of radius 0 and then gradually increase because very few microtubules "fit" into circles with the smallest radii.

      Planned revision:

      • We will revise the text to include the suggested changes and add a brief statement to the methods section to explain why the curves start at 0.* *

      *It should be stressed in the text, that the modification-specific antibodies only detect modified microtubules. Thus, in figure 3, in the absence of total tubulin staining, it is possible that there are more microtubules than revealed with the anti-acetylated tubulin antibody. A possible explanation should be discussed. *

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this point and will adjust the text accordingly.

      Planned revision:

      • We will clarify this in the revised text by adding the following sentence: In addition, given that we specifically stained for acetylated tubulin (a marker for stable microtubules), it is possible that other non-acetylated and thus perhaps dynamic microtubules are also associated with the centrioles.* *

      *OPTIONAL: As discussed in the manuscript's discussion, testing some of the proposed mechanisms regulating microtubule cytoskeleton architecture in development (motors, crosslinkers, severing enzymes) would significantly increase the impact of this study. Exploring these phenomena in a more complex system (3D culture, brain explants) closer to the intricate character of the brain than the 2D dissociated neurons would be a real game-changer. *

      We agree that sorting out the mechanisms driving microtubule reorganization would be very exciting. However, this will require many more experiments, as well as the recruitment and training of a new PhD student or postdoc, given that the first author has left the lab. Therefore, we feel this falls outside the scope of the current work, which carefully maps the microtubule organization during neuronal development and demonstrates the active polarity reversal of stable microtubules during this process.

      Minor comments

      1. *It could be useful to write on each panel whether the images were obtained with expansion or motor-PAINT technique: the rendering of the figures is very similar, and despite the different colour scheme can be confusing. *

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out.

      Planned revision:

      • We will incorporate this suggestion when revising our manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance)

      This manuscript provides insights into the establishment of the microtubule cytoskeleton architecture specific to highly polarised neurons. The imaging techniques used, improved from the ones published before (motor-PAINT: Kapitein lab in 2017, U-ExM: Hamel/Guichard lab in 2019), yield beautiful and convincing data, marking an improvement compared to previous studies.

      *However, the novelty of some of the findings is relatively limited. Indeed, a mixed microtubule orientation in very young neurites has already been shown (Yau et al, 2016, co-authored by Kapitein), as has the separate distribution of acetylated and tyrosinated / stable and labile / plus-end-out and plus-end-in microtubules in dendrites (Tas, ..., Kapitein, 2017). *

      *On the other hand, observation of the live movement of microtubules with the resolution allowing to see single (stable) microtubules is new and important. It provides an exciting setup to explore the mechanisms of polarity reversal of microtubules in neuronal development and it is regrettable that these mechanisms have not been explored further. *

      *The association of (stable) microtubules with the centrioles is also a technically challenging analysis. Despite not being able to visualise all microtubules, but only acetylated ones, these data are novel and exciting. *

      *This work will be of interest for neuronal cell biologists, developmental neurobiologists. The impact would be larger if the mechanistic questions were addressed using these sophisticated methodologies. *

      *This reviewer's expertise is the regulation of the microtubule cytoskeleton and its impact on molecular, cellular and organism levels. *

      • *


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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      The manuscript uses state-of-the-art microscopy (e,g. expansion microscopy, motorPAINT) to observe microtubule organization during early events of differentiation of cultured rat hippocampal neurons. The authors confirm previous work showing that microtubules in neurites and dendrites are of mixed polarity whereas they are of uniform plus-end-out polarity in axons. They show that stable microtubules (labeled with antibody against acetylated tubulin) are located in the central region of neurite cross-section across all differentiation stages. They show that acetylated microtubules are associated with centrioles early in differentiation but less so at later stages. And they show that stable microtubules can move from one neurite to another, presumably by microtubule sliding.

      Comments:

      • I found the manuscript difficult to read. There are lots of "segregations" of microtubules occurring over these stages of neuronal differentiation: segregation between the center of a neurite and the outer edge with respect to neurite cross-section, segregation between the region proximal to the cell body and the region distal to the cell body, and segregation over time (stages). The authors don't do a good job of distinguishing these and reporting the major findings in a way that is clear and straightforward.

      • The major focus is on microtubule changes between stages 2a and 2b. This is introduced in the text and in the methods but not reflected in Figure 1A which should serve as an orientation of what is to come. It would be helpful to move the information about stages to the main text and/or Figure 1A.

      • For Figure 1, the conclusions are generally supported by the data with the exception of the data for stage 2b in 1D and 1H. The images in D and the line scan in H suggest that for stage 2b, minus-end-out are on one edge whereas the plus-end-out are on the other edge of the neurite cross-section. But this is only true for one region along this example neurite. If the white line in D was moved proximal or distal along the neurite, the line scan for stage 2b would look like those of stages 2a and 3.

      • For Figure 2, I found it difficult to relate panels A-F to panels G-J. I recommend combining 2G-J with 3A-B for a separate figure focused on the orientation of stable microtubules across different stages.

      • For Figure 3, it is difficult to reconcile the traces with the corresponding images - that is, there are many acetylated microtubules in the top view image that appear to contact centrioles but are not in the tracing. Perhaps the tracings would more accurately reflect the localization of the acetylated microtubules in the top view images if a stack of images was shown rather than the max projections. Or if the authors were to stain for CAMSAPs to identify non-centrosomal microtubules. I find the data unconvincing but I do believe their conclusion because it is consistent with published data in the field. The data need to be quantified.

      • I have a major concern with the conclusions of Figure 4. Here the authors use StableMARK to argue that microtubules do not depolymerize in one neurite and then repolymerize in another neurite but rather can be moved (presumably by sliding) from one neurite to another. The problem is that StableMARK-decorated microtubules do not depolymerize. So yes, StableMARK-decorated microtubules can move from one neurite to another but that does not say anything about what normally happens to microtubules during neuronal differentiation. In addition, the text says that the focus on Figure 4 is on how microtubules change between stages 2a and 2b but data is only shown for stage 2b.

      • The data are largely descriptive and it is of course important to first describe things before one can dive into mechanism. But most of the findings confirm previous work and new findings are limited to showing that e.g. microtubule segregation appears earlier than previously observed.

      • Optional: It would be nice if the authors could investigate some potential mechanisms. For example, does knockdown or knockout of severing enzymes prevent the loss of centriolar microtubules shown in Figure 3? Does knockdown or knockout of kinesin-2 or EB1 prevent the reorientation of microtubules (Chen et al 2014)?

      • Overall, the methods are presented in such a way that they can be reproduced. One exception is in the motor paint sample prep section: is it three washes for 1 min each or three washes over 1 min?

      • No statistical analysis is provided. The spread of the data in the violin plots is very large and it is difficult to ascertain how strongly one should make conclusions based on different data spreads between different conditions.

      • For Figure S5, the excluded data (axons and axon-like neurites) should also be shown.

      • For the movies, it would be helpful to have the microtubule moving from one neurite to another identified in some way as it is difficult to tell what is going on.

      Significance

      A strength of the study is the state-of-the-art microscopy (e,g. expansion microscopy, motorPAINT) and its application to a classic experimental model (rat hippocampal neurons). The information will be useful to those interested in the details of neuronal differentiation. A limitation of the study is that it appears to mostly confirm previous findings in the field (microtubule segregation, loss of centriolar anchoring, microtubule sliding). The advance to the field is that the manuscript shows that these events occur earlier in differentiation that previously known.

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      This study examines the reorganization of the microtubule (MT) cytoskeleton during early neuronal development, specifically focusing on the establishment of axonal and dendritic polarity. Utilizing advanced microscopy techniques, the authors demonstrate that stable microtubules in early neurites initially exhibit a plus-end-out orientation, attributed to their connection with centrioles. Subsequently, these microtubules are released and undergo sliding, resulting in a mixed-polarity orientation in early neurites. Furthermore, the study elegantly illustrates the spatial segregation of microtubules in dendrites based on polarity and stability. The experiments are rigorously executed, and the microscopy data are presented with exceptional clarity. The following are my primary concerns that warrant further consideration by the authors.

      1. Potential Bias in the MotorPAINT Assay: Kinesin-1 and kinesin-3 motors exhibit distinct preferences for post-translationally modified (PTM) microtubules. Given that kinesin-1 preferentially binds to acetylated microtubules over tyrosinated microtubules in the MotorPAINT assay, the potential for bias in the results arises. Have the authors explored the use of kinesin-3, which favors tyrosinated microtubules, to corroborate the observed microtubule polarity?

      2. Axon-Like Neurites in Stage 2b Neurons: The observation of axon-like neurites in Stage 2b neurons, characterized by an (almost) uniformly plus-end-out microtubule organization, is noteworthy. Have the authors confirmed this polarity using end-binding (EB) protein tracking (e.g., EB1, EB3) in Stage 2b neurons? Do these neurites display distinct morphological features, such as variations in width? Furthermore, do they consistently differentiate into axons when tracked over time using live-cell EB imaging, rather than the MotorPAINT assay? Could stable microtubule anchoring impede free sliding in these neurites or restrict sliding into them? Investigating microtubule sliding dynamics in these axon-like neurites would provide valuable insights.

      3. Taxol and Microtubule Sliding: Taxol-induced microtubule stabilization is known to induce the formation of multiple axons. Does taxol treatment diminish microtubule sliding and prevent polarity reversal in minor neurites, thereby facilitating their development into axons?

      4. Sorting of Minus-End-Out Microtubules (MTs) in Developing Axons: Traces of minus-end-out MTs are observed proximal to the soma in both Stage 2b axon-like neurites and Stage 3 developing axons (Figure S4). Does this indicate a clearance mechanism for misoriented MTs during development? If so, is this sorting mechanism specific to axons? Could dynein be involved? Pharmacological inhibition of dynein (e.g., ciliobrevin-D or dynarrestin) could assess whether blocking dynein disrupts uniform MT polarity and axon formation.

      5. Impact of Kinesin-1 Rigor Mutants on MT Polarity and Dynamics: Would the expression of kinesin-1 rigor mutants alter MT dynamics and polarity? Validation with alternative methods, such as microtubule photoconversion, would be beneficial.

      6. Molecular Motors Driving MT Sliding: Which specific motors drive MT sliding in the soma and neurites? If a motor drives minus-end-out MTs into neurites, it must be plus-end-directed. The discussion should clarify the polarity of the involved motors to strengthen the conclusions.

      7. Stability of Centriole-Derived Microtubules: Microtubules emanating from centrioles are typically young and dynamic. How do they acquire acetylation and stability at an early stage? Do centrioles exhibit active EB1/EB3 comets in Stage 1/2a neurons? If these microtubules are severed from centrioles, could knockdown of MT-severing proteins (e.g., Katanin, Spastin, Fidgetin) alter microtubule polarity during neuronal development? A brief discussion would be valuable.

      Minor Points:

      1. In Movies 3 and 4, please use arrowheads or pseudo-coloring to highlight microtubules detaching from specific points. In Movie 5, please mark the stable microtubule that rotates within the neurite

      2. In Movies 3 and 4, please use arrowheads or pseudo-coloring to highlight microtubules detaching from specific points. In Movie 5, mark the stable microtubule that rotates within the same neurite and the microtubule that exits and enters another neurite in the opposite orientation. These annotations would enhance clarity."

      3. The title states: 'Stable microtubules predominantly oriented minus-end-out in the minor neurites of Stage 2b and 3 neurons.' However, given that the minus-end-out percentage increases after nocodazole treatment but only reaches a median of 0.48, 'predominantly' may be an overstatement. Please consider rewording.

      4. Please compare the StableMARK system with the K560Rigor-SunTag approach described by Tanenbaum et al. (2014). What are the advantages of StableMARK over the SunTag method?

      5. Microscopy data (Movies 2, 3, and 4) show microtubule bundling with StableMARK labeling, which is absent in tubulin immunostaining. Could this be an artifact of ectopic StableMARK expression? If so, a brief note addressing this potential effect would be beneficial.

      Significance

      It is an important paper challenging established ideas of microtubule organization in neurons. It is important to the wide audience of cell and neurobiologists.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      We would like to warmly thank all the reviewers for their helpful and fair comments which will increase the quality of our manuscript.

      We would like to inform the reviewers that changes have been made concerning the Figures numbers as follows :

      Figure number in old version

      Figure number in revised manuscript

      1B

      S1C

      S1C

      S1D

      1C

      S2A

      S1D

      S2B

      S1E

      S2C

      1D

      1B

      S2

      S3

      S3

      S4

      S4

      S5

      1. Description of the planned revision

      Reviewer #1

      Major comments 3) Upon food supplementation with 20E the authors could not measure a significant effect on systemic growth or midgut maturation (Fig. S3), whereas the dose of 20E they fed (20µg/ml) was already much higher than endogenous 20E level they measured in the midgut (Fig. 2B).

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment.

      Fig. S3 is now Fig. S4

      First, the concentration of 20µg/mL is the final concentration in the fly food and is different from the levels of 20HE we measured in the organs and in the haemolymph, due to the different cell absorption and degradation of the product.

      This concentration of 20µg/mL corresponds to a molar concentration of approximately 0.04mM which is less than the common concentration of 20HE used in the literature in the food (1mM).

      Tiffany V. Roach, Kari F. Lenhart; Mating-induced Ecdysone in the testis disrupts soma-germline contacts and stem cell cytokinesis. Development 1 June 2024; 151 (11): dev202542. doi: https://doi.org/10.1242/dev.202542

      Ahmed, S.M.H., Maldera, J.A., Krunic, D. et al. Fitness trade-offs incurred by ovary-to-gut steroid signalling in Drosophila. Nature 584, 415-419 (2020). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2462-y

      The authors should consider to feed larvae with RH5849 (Dr. Ehrenstorfer), which is an insecticide functioning as an ecdysone agonist and was designed for high stability (Wing et al, 1988). RH5849 was already successfully fed to adult Drosophila to investigate the impact of Ecdysone signalling on the adult midgut (Neophytou et al, 2023; Zipper et al, 2025; Zipper et al, 2020) and elicits 20E response. Furthermore, uptake of RH5849 is not limited by the levels of EcI.

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment. We ordered that compound and the experiment should be performed in July since the sending date is expected in late June.

      8) The authors should include a discussion of how Ecdysone signalling in postmitotic EC is regulating midgut size, which may include recent data from Edgar and Reiff labs (Ahmed et al, 2020; Zipper et al., 2025; Zipper et al., 2020).

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment. We would like to target a format of report for the journal, thus there are some constraints about the number of words. Of course, if the editor allows us to bypass that limit, we would be delighted to cite and discuss these papers.

      9) There are several recent publications showing a role for gut microbiota in regulating oestrogen metabolism in humans, and implications in oestrogen-related diseases such as endometriosis (Baker et al, 2017; Xholli et al, 2023). More precisely bacteria including Lactobacilli strains produce gut microbial β-glucuronidase enzymes, which reactivate oestrogens (Ervin et al, 2019; Hu et al, 2023). As Drosophila ecdysone is the functional equivalent of mammalian oestrogens (Aranda & Pascual, 2001; Martinez et al, 1991; Oberdörster et al, 2001) these publications should be discussed by the authors.

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment. We would like to target a format of report for the journal, thus there are some constraints about the number of words. Also, the topics of these papers seem a little bit out of the scope of our manuscript which is focused on the microbiota impact on midgut growth.

      Reviewer #2 Minor Comments

      Figure S2: columns A and B are box plots, while columns C and D are columns with error bars. Presentation of quantitative data should be uniform and ideally as box plots throughout.

      The authors thank the reviewer #2 for this advice and the figure will be further revised.

      Fig. S2 is now Fig. S3


      __Reviewer #3 __

      Major comments:

      The study relies on loss-of-function experiments to manipulate ecdysone signaling; gain-of-function experiments would provide an informative complement. Does feeding ecdysone phenocopy Lp association in GF larvae? Would ecdysone feeding have an additive effect with Lp association? Given the pleiotropic effects of ecdysone on larval phenotypes, a more targeted approach could be used to overexpress transgenes to augment ecdysone signaling.

      We thank the reviewer #3 for this comment. This thought is shared with reviewer #1 and this experiment will be repeated with RH5849. The results are expected in July.

      Minor comments:

      1. For gut and carcass length analysis, the EcR-RNAi and shd-RNAi conditions look slightly smaller in both GF and Lp conditions. Is there a genetic background effect on larval size? It would be helpful to calculate the interaction score between genotype and microbiome status via a 2-way ANOVA with post hoc tests.

      The authors thank the reviewer #3 for this comment. We will further analyse statistically that differences.


      6) In Fig. 3 the authors added the values for numbers of biological replica within the graphs. In Fig. 4 M-P they added the values for number of technical replicas. They should apply adding these two types of values to all graphs and I would suggest to make the difference between biological replica 'n' and technical replica 'N' obvious in the figure.

      The authors thank the reviewer #3 for this comment. We will modify these numbers in the Figures and/or we will clarify these numbers in the legends to not overwrite the Figures.


      The scope of the bibliography seems limited in scope. As one example, Shin et al., 2011 seems quite relevant for this study.

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment. We would like to target a format of report for the journal, thus there are some constraints about the number of words. Of course, if the editor allows us to bypass that limit we would be delighted to cite and discuss this paper.

      • *

      2. Description of the revisions that have already been incorporated in the transferred manuscript

      All changes are visible in red in the text of the revised manuscript.

      __Reviewer #1 __

      __Major remarks __

      1) In Fig.2 E - G there is a remarkable difference between controls in D compared to F and E compared to G. The difference between the controls in E and G is stronger than the shown significant difference of EcRRNAi to the control in E. How do the authors explain such a difference of the two (basically equal) controls and the high variance in control values shown in G?

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment. As mentioned in the material and methods, the controls are different due to the different RNAi construct. Thus, this can generate variability in such type of developmental experiment.

      Line 253: "UAS-EcRRNAi (BDSC 9327), UAS-dsmCherryRNAI (BDSC 35785), UAS-shadeRNAi (VDRC 108911), and respective RNAi control lines (KK60101)."

      Are the comparisons of control and EcRRNAi shown in D significantly different?

      As mentioned in the figure panel, the EcRRNAi GF and control GF are significantly different and this is discussed in the text as follows in Line 154: "This phenomenon could be explained by genetic background and/or by additional deleterious effect of germ-freeness, as well as a putative contribution of EcR to intestinal functions that are important for systemic growth independently of the contributions of microbiota to adaptive growth."


      4) Lines 167-169: the authors state that 'Size-matched Lp associated larvae, controlRNAi or EcRRNAi, show longer midguts than their relative GF condition (Fig. 3A, B)', but there are no significant statistics shown for this comparison in Fig. 3A, B.

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment and we agree that the sentence can be misleading. Thus, we reformulated it as : "Size-matched Lp-associated EcRRNAi larvae show longer midguts than their relative GF controls (Fig. 3A, B)."

      10) Fig. S4 is not mentioned at all in the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment and we added the reference to the supplementary Figure 4, now Figure S5 on Line 202 : "In the anterior part, the cells and nuclei are bigger in Lp-associated than GF animals (Fig. 4M-N, Fig.S5). For the posterior part, the cell area was significantly increased in Lp- monoassociated animals compared to GF cell while no change was shown for the nucleus area (Fig. 4O-P, Fig.S5)."

      Minor comments: • The authors are inconsistent in indicating their experimental groups. One example is Fig. S3: In A and B they write the GF groups non-italic, whereas the L.p. groups are written italic. In C - E they only partially write the L.p. groups italic. Furthermore, in A, C - E they write 'L.p.', whereas its written 'Lp' and missing the 'WJL' in B.

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment and we corrected that mistake in Fig. S3.

      Fig. S3 is now Fig. S4

      • Line 52: The last 'i' in 'Lactobacilli' is not italic.

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment and we corrected that mistake. • Line 122: Spelling error in 'Surpringsinly'

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment and we corrected that mistake. • Line 151: Spelling error in 'progenies'. Needs to read 'progeny'.

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment and we corrected that mistake. • Lines 231-235: Last part of the sentence is repetitive

      We thank the reviewer #1 for this comment and we corrected that mistake as "Our work paves the way to deciphering the signals delivered by the bacteria that are sensed at the host cellular level and to understand how this microbe-mediated Ecd-dependent midgut growth contributes to the Drosophila larval growth upon malnutrition."

      Reviewer #2 Minor Comments 1. Figure 1 is interesting but challenging to follow. The fonts are very small and challenging to read. Pink on blue background is particularly hard to read and doesn't seem necessary. As the entire manuscript follows from data in Figure 1, I would encourage the authors to revise it with a vie3w to making the results more accessible.

      The authors thank the reviewer #2 for this advice and the Figure 1 has been revised.

      Figure 4 is impressive and important for the overall manuscript. The authors should provide representative images to show how they measured cell area and nucleus area.

      The authors thank the reviewer #2.

      How cell area and nucleus area were measured is described in Figure S4. The reference to this supplementary Figure was missing in the initial manuscript and we deeply apologize for that.

      Reviewer #1 also pointed out that the reference of Figure S4 covering that point was missing in the text and we corrected that point.

      I struggled to follow this sentence (line 215): "Also, it will be interesting to test, beyond their shared growth phenotype, whether they respond differently at the mechanistical level to the presence of bacteria in the anterior compartment." I would encourage the authors to consider alternative formulations.

      The authors thank the reviewer #2 and revised that sentence as follows :

      "Also, it will be interesting to investigate whether the midgut comprises sub-populations of enterocytes that differ in their physiological functions. Indeed, these sub-populations could be differently distributed along the midgut and be localized on anterior and/or posterior parts. Thus, they could present varied responses to the presence of the bacteria."

      __Reviewer #3 __

      Major comments

      Figure 4 title is misleading. No manipulations of ecdysone signaling are performed to demonstrate whether scaling relationships across tissues differ depending on ecdysone. The same experiment should be performed using mex>EcR-RNAi larvae and/or mex>shd-RNAi larvae.

      We thank the reviewer #3 for this comment.

      We agree with the reviewer and the title has been changed as follows and mentioned in red in the manuscript : Midgut-specific adaptive growth promoted by Lp in Drosophila larvae.


      Minor comments:

      It is notable that mex>EcR-RNAi in germ-free larvae exacerbates developmental delay. A possible interpretation is that ecdysone signaling in the germ-free context promotes increased growth rate. Could the authors comment?

      We thank reviewer #3 for this comment.

      Since we described a local effect at the intestine level for Ecd it is unlikely but not totally excluded that intestinal Ecd promotes systemic growth.

      Our comments are here in the text :

      "This phenomenon could be explained by genetic background and/or by additional deleterious effect of germ-freeness, as well as a putative contribution of EcR to intestinal functions that are important for systemic growth independently of the contributions of microbiota to adaptive growth."

      Experimental variation is substantial between the control conditions of the EcR and Shd knockdown experiments; median control + Lp D50 in the EcR experiment is ~6 days whereas in the shade experiment it is ~9 days. Can the authors comment on this between-experiment variation, which seems substantial (similar to the effect size between control + Lp and control GF)?

      We thank reviewer #3 for this comment which was also highlighted by the reviewer #1 and we answered as follows :

      As mentioned in the material in methods, the controls are different due to the different RNAi construct. Thus, this can generate variability in such type of developmental experiment.

      Line 253: "UAS-EcRRNAi (BDSC 9327), UAS-dsmCherryRNAI (BDSC 35785), UAS-shadeRNAi (VDRC 108911), and respective RNAi control lines (KK60101)."

      As mentioned in the figure panel, the EcRRNAi GF and control GF are significantly different and this is discussed in the text as follows in Line 154: "This phenomenon could be explained by genetic background and/or by additional deleterious effect of germ-freeness, as well as a putative contribution of EcR to intestinal functions that are important for systemic growth independently of the contributions of microbiota to adaptive growth."

      The methods detail an ecdysone feeding protocol that I could not find used in the experiments. Please clarify.

      We thank reviewer #3 for this comment.

      We would like to highlight that this protocol is related to an experiment described in Fig. S3 (now Fig.S4) and that supplementary Figure was cited here in the text of the manuscript Line 179 as follows "While the systemic growth of animals is not affected by addition of 20E, a slight trend to faster midgut maturation of GF larvae is observed through the measurements of longer guts (Fig. S4)."

      Also, in supplementary data :

      Fig. S3 : Feeding larvae with 20E does not impact the gut growth.

      (A-B) Addition of 20E has no impact on larval developmental timing (DT) and their D50. From size-matched animals (C), Lp promotes intestinal growth compare to GF (D) but no significant difference is shown in the gut/carcass ratio (E). Animals receiving 20E are represented with color filled circles +Lp (blue), GF (black) and controls without 20E supplementation with empty circles.

      The manuscript would benefit from additional proofreading. The text contains spelling errors throughout. The in-text reference formatting is inconsistent. Figure legends could be improved to better describe the data.

      We thank reviewer #3 for this comment and following the different reviewers comments we improved the manuscript in that way.

      3. Description of analyses that authors prefer not to carry out

      Reviewer #1

      __Major remarks __ 2) The authors should consider investigating an EcIRNAi in addition to EcRRNAi. EcR functions as activator, but also as suppressor in the absence of Ecdysone and a EcRRNAi suppresses both functions of EcR. By knocking down EcI the authors would prevent uptake of Ecdysone and thus interfere only with the ligand-induced activating function of EcR.

      We thank reviewer #1 for this comment.

      This experiment has been performed using EcI RNAi but not shown here because in our hands the genetic tool was not efficient (RNA interference does not work effectively) and thus the experiment was not conclusive.

      No phenotype was observed in our study (see Figure attached). Also, the others Oatp family members were tested for their expression in midgut and were found close to null expression.

      5) Why are the authors comparing the carcass length of GF shade RNAi with L.p. control in Fig. 3 D?

      We thank reviewer #1 for this comment. For transparency of the results, these statistics were added. Because in these conditions GF larvae were difficult to rise at the same size than their relative Lp monoassociated. Hence, the carcass length was used to normalize the data.

      7) In Fig. S3C the authors compared L.p. WJL 20E with the GF EtOH control, where is the comparison to the corresponding L.p. WJL EtOH control? The L.p. WJL EtOH control is compared to GF 20E instead.

      We thank reviewer #1 for this comment that will help to clarify our experiment.

      Fig. S3 is now Fig. S4

      For the Fig. S4C, it is a larval size that allows to compare sizes in all conditions independently. That explains that statistics are shown between all conditions. To not overload the Figure the p values not different are not mentioned.

      Reviewer #2 Minor Comments 3. Figure S3 confuses me. It seems that addition of 20E to GF larvae leads to a significant reduction of larval size, and that mono-association with Lp also significantly shortens larval size. Data in Figure 4G suggest that Lp should not affect larval body length relative to GF larvae. Can the authors explain the apparent discrepancy?

      The authors thank the reviewer #2 for this question. Fig. S3 is now Fig. S4.

      This difference could be explained as follows :

      • The developmental experiment in Fig. S3B shows no difference between the two GF conditions. Thus, at the end of the is larval development, systemic growth is similar in both conditions.

      Because performed earlier during development, the larval size experiment shows higher variability in measurements of larval size. Moreover, less larvae are present in the GF 20E condition that could explained that difference.

      • We have previously shown that Lp mono-associated larvae grow faster than GF. Thus, to collect size-matched larvae on the same day, GF or Lp animals come from a different initial day of experiment. Due to biological variability, some differences in timing could be observed between GF and Lp animals.

      Reviewer #3

      Major comments

      1. The authors conclude that intestinal ecdysone signals are not required for Lp-promoted systemic growth. However, their data shows that circulating 20E titer increases in an Lp-dependent manner, and this circulating 20E presumably affects multiple tissues throughout the organism. Since EcR is broadly expressed, can the authors examine how EcR knockdown in other tissues influences systemic growth in Lp-associated larvae? Fat body-specific EcR knockdown seems particularly of interest here given the established relationship between fat body ecdysone signaling and growth (Delanoue et al., 2010). This additional analysis would help clarify whether ecdysone signaling in non-intestinal tissues mediates the Lp-associated growth phenotype.

      We thank reviewer #3 for this comment that will help to clarify our manuscript.

      We would like to emphasize that we never mention in this manuscript that intestinal ecdysone signals are not required for systemic growth. Nevertheless, we highlighted that it is required for Lp-related midgut growth and not rate limiting for Lp-promoted systemic growth:

      Line 179 : "While the systemic growth of animals is not affected by addition of 20E, a slight trend to faster midgut maturation of GF larvae is observed through the measurements of longer guts (Fig. S3). Thus, the intestinal Ecd signaling is required for the midgut growth effect mediated by Lp in a context of malnutrition."

      Line 227: "Specifically, intestinal Ecd signaling is not rate-limiting for Lp-mediated adaptive growth."

      While it will be very interesting to study the effects of Ecd modulation from Fat Body, we feel this is out of the scope of our manuscript that focused on the Lp-based intestinal growth.

      The experimental design compares larvae associated with live Lp versus germ-free larvae provided sterile PBS. Since Lp cells constitute a potential nutrient source for developing larvae, it's unclear whether gene expression differences arise from larvae digesting Lp cells as a nutrient source or from active, microbe-host signaling interactions. To conclusively address this ambiguity, the authors should perform RNA-seq on larvae inoculated with live versus heat-killed Lp. Alternatively, qPCR could be used to provide evidence for the extent to which changes in ecdysone-related gene expression specifically require live Lp.

      We thank reviewer #3 for this comment.

      We (the lab) previously showed that the systemic growth phenotype is supported by bacteria during development and that bacteria have to be alive to support optimal effects (Storelli et al 2018, PMID: 29290388; Consuegra et al 2020a, PMID: 32196485; Consuegra et al 2020b, PMID: 32563155). This topic of bacteria viability has also been directly addressed independently by colleagues and reported recently (da Silva Soares NF, PMID: 37488173). Hence, we did not design our RNAseq with inactivated bacteria. However, if the editor believes this is essential to provide qPCR results on Ecd-related gene expression in live vs inactivated bacteria associations, we shall provide them but at this stage we believe this notion is not core to our message.

      Shade is expressed in the larval midgut, however the larval fat body is thought to be a major site of 20E to 20HE conversion. Can the authors test how Shd knockdown in the fat body affects systemic growth in the Lp-associated condition?

      We thank reviewer #3 for this comment. Nevertheless, we think this is out of the scope of our manuscript that focused on the Lp-based intestinal growth.

      In the knockdown experiments, body size is not measured for larvae/pupae. Given that ecdysone signaling impacts pupal volume (Delanoue et al., 2010) and controls metamorphosis timing, D50 plots by pupal volume would be informative to give a rough estimate of growth rate. For example, do germ-free EcR-RNAi larvae, which develop slower, have an equivalent body size to germ-free control larvae?

      We thank the reviewer #3 for this comment.

      All experiments were done with size-matched larvae because the aim of this manuscript is to detail what is the impact of Lp on the relative midgut vs systemic growth. Hence, we are using animals of similar systemic size to study their midgut size and identify allometry changes (midgut/larval size ratios) at a similar developmental point, which is same larval systemic growth (here L3). Thus, we feel that focusing on growth rates and systemic sizes in different genetic conditions, while interesting in general, is out of the scope of the study since we focus our study on midgut/larval size allometry.


      __Minor comments __

      The number of pupae in the EcR-RNAi and shd-RNAi experiments (Fig 2D, F) differ. Were larval densities controlled during development?

      I could not find this mentioned in the methods, and it is an important control parameter as larval density impacts developmental growth. Presenting this data as % viability of a known number of larvae deposited in food would be preferable.

      We thank the reviewer #3 for this comment.

      As mentioned in the material and methods, 40 eggs from axenic animals were deposited on each tube. It is true that the final number of pupae is different and could come from differential viability of the genetic backgrounds used. It would be difficult to follow from the same tube the larval development because of the manipulation of gnotobiotics animals. Nevertheless, in all experiments more than 25% of initial eggs deposited in tubes emerged as adults.

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Bai and colleagues present a detailed characterization of the larval midgut transcriptome, comparing size-matched germ-free and Lactobacillus plantarum (Lp)-associated L3 larvae. The authors identify Lp-mediated changes in ecdysone signaling genes, show increased ecdysone titer in Lp-associated larval hemolymph, and explore the functional role of intestinal ecdysone signaling and Lp in gut-specific vs systemic growth. This work offers insights into microbiome-intestinal EcR signaling that will attract broad interest in the Drosophila community.

      Major comments:

      1. The authors conclude that intestinal ecdysone signals are not required for Lp-promoted systemic growth. However, their data shows that circulating 20E titer increases in an Lp-dependent manner, and this circulating 20E presumably affects multiple tissues throughout the organism. Since EcR is broadly expressed, can the authors examine how EcR knockdown in other tissues influences systemic growth in Lp-associated larvae? Fat body-specific EcR knockdown seems particularly of interest here given the established relationship between fat body ecdysone signaling and growth (Delanoue et al., 2010). This additional analysis would help clarify whether ecdysone signaling in non-intestinal tissues mediates the Lp-associated growth phenotype.
      2. The experimental design compares larvae associated with live Lp versus germ-free larvae provided sterile PBS. Since Lp cells constitute a potential nutrient source for developing larvae, it's unclear whether gene expression differences arise from larvae digesting Lp cells as a nutrient source or from active, microbe-host signaling interactions. To conclusively address this ambiguity, the authors should perform RNA-seq on larvae inoculated with live versus heat-killed Lp. Alternatively, qPCR could be used to provide evidence for the extent to which changes in ecdysone-related gene expression specifically require live Lp.
      3. Shade is expressed in the larval midgut, however the larval fat body is thought to be a major site of 20E to 20HE conversion. Can the authors test how Shd knockdown in the fat body affects systemic growth in the Lp-associated condition?
      4. In the knockdown experiments, body size is not measured for larvae/pupae. Given that ecdysone signaling impacts pupal volume (Delanoue et al., 2010) and controls metamorphosis timing, D50 plots by pupal volume would be informative to give a rough estimate of growth rate. For example, do germ-free EcR-RNAi larvae, which develop slower, have an equivalent body size to germ-free control larvae?
      5. Figure 4 title is misleading. No manipulations of ecdysone signaling are performed to demonstrate whether scaling relationships across tissues differ depending on ecdysone. The same experiment should be performed using mex>EcR-RNAi larvae and/or mex>shd-RNAi larvae.
      6. The study relies on loss-of-function experiments to manipulate ecdysone signaling; gain-of-function experiments would provide an informative complement. Does feeding ecdysone phenocopy Lp association in GF larvae? Would ecdysone feeding have an additive effect with Lp association? Given the pleiotropic effects of ecdysone on larval phenotypes, a more targeted approach could be used to overexpress transgenes to augment ecdysone signaling.

      Minor comments:

      1. For gut and carcass length analysis, the EcR-RNAi and shd-RNAi conditions look slightly smaller in both GF and Lp conditions. Is there a genetic background effect on larval size? It would be helpful to calculate the interaction score between genotype and microbiome status via a 2-way ANOVA with post hoc tests.
      2. It is notable that mex>EcR-RNAi in germ-free larvae exacerbates developmental delay. A possible interpretation is that ecdysone signaling in the germ-free context promotes increased growth rate. Could the authors comment?
      3. The number of pupae in the EcR-RNAi and shd-RNAi experiments (Fig 2D, F) differ. Were larval densities controlled during development? I could not find this mentioned in the methods, and it is an important control parameter as larval density impacts developmental growth. Presenting this data as % viability of a known number of larvae deposited in food would be preferable.
      4. Experimental variation is substantial between the control conditions of the EcR and Shd knockdown experiments; median control + Lp D50 in the EcR experiment is ~6 days whereas in the shade experiment it is ~9 days. Can the authors comment on this between-experiment variation, which seems substantial (similar to the effect size between control + Lp and control GF)?
      5. The methods detail an ecdysone feeding protocol that I could not find used in the experiments. Please clarify.
      6. Figure S4 is not called out in the text.
      7. The scope of the bibliography seems limited in scope. As one example, Shin et al., 2011 seems quite relevant for this study.
      8. The manuscript would benefit from additional proofreading. The text contains spelling errors throughout. The in-text reference formatting is inconsistent. Figure legends could be improved to better describe the data.

      Significance

      The authors identify Lp-mediated changes in ecdysone signaling genes, show increased ecdysone titer in Lp-associated larval hemolymph, and explore the functional role of intestinal ecdysone signaling and Lp in gut-specific vs systemic growth. This work offers insights into microbiome-intestinal EcR signaling that will attract broad interest in the Drosophila community.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary

      Gut-resident bacteria promote growth and development in the host intestine. With remarkable genetic accessibility and broad physiological relevance, flies are an excellent experimental system to ask how intestinal bacteria modify growth. Previous studies established a role for Lactobacillus planetarium in larval fly growth, particularly during periods of nutrient deprivation. Growth is principally supported by signals from insulin-like peptides and the melting hormone ecdysone. In this manuscript, the authors present transcriptomic data that Lp association has large effects on transcription in larval hosts raised on low-protein diets, including signatures of ecdysone signalling activation. Through a series of follow up studies the authors present evidence that ecdysone signalling is particularly important for midgut growth in Lp-associated larvae raised on low protein food.

      Major Comments

      I have no major comments. The manuscript is well written, easy to follow, and data are interpreted appropriately. Most of my remarks are minor in nature and can be addressed by simple changes to the text or figures.

      Minor Comments

      1. Figure 1 is interesting but challenging to follow. The fonts are very small and challenging to read. Pink on blue background is particularly hard to read and doesn't seem necessary. As the entire manuscript follows from data in Figure 1, I would encourage the authors to revise it with a vie3w to making the results more accessible.
      2. Figure S2: columns A and B are box plots, while columns C and D are columns with error bars. Presentation of quantitative data should be uniform and ideally as box plots throughout.
      3. Figure S3 confuses me. It seems that addition of 20E to GF larvae leads to a significant reduction of larval size, and that mono-association with Lp also significantly shortens larval size. Data in Figure 4G suggest that Lp should not affect larval body length relative to GF larvae. Can the authors explain the apparent discrepancy?
      4. Figure 4 is impressive and important for the overall manuscript. The authors should provide representative images to show how they measured cell area and nucleus area.
      5. I struggled to follow this sentence (line 215): "Also, it will be interesting to test, beyond their shared growth phenotype, whether they respond differently at the mechanistical level to the presence of bacteria in the anterior compartment." I would encourage the authors to consider alternative formulations.

      Significance

      Strengths and limitations

      This is a well written manuscript that adds to our understanding of the effects of intestinal bacteria on host development. Except for labeling in Figure 1, all data are accessibly presented, and accurately interpreted.

      Advance

      The study accurately links gut microbes to endocrinological control of organ growth in the fly. It also advances our understanding of Drosophila intestinal development by showing how ecdysone is important for gut development.

      Audience

      The work is focussed in scope and will likely have greater appeal to groups that work primarily with the Drosophila model. However, the work will likely have a broader appeal to those that study microbial control of development in other animal models.

      My expertise

      This study aligns with my area of expertise.

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      The manuscript entitled 'Drosophila larval gut transcriptome reveals a microbe-mediated intestinal tissue growth via Ecdysone during adaptive growth' identifies endocrine ecdysone signalling to regulate Lactobacilli-mediated adaptive growth during Drosophila larval development in context of malnutrition. The authors performed transcriptomic analysis to pin down genes that are deregulated in Lactiplantibacillus plantarum (L.p.) associated animals compared to germ-free raised animals. Besides the newly highlighted ecdysteroid kinase-like genes the other isolated deregulated candidates will be of interest for the audience specialized on gut microbiomes. Furthermore, by knockdown of the ecdysone receptor and the converting enzyme shade in midgut enterocytes of L.p. associated and GF raised larvae Bai et al. validated a requirement for ecdysone signalling in midgut growth, but not systemic growth of malnourished animals.

      Although the manuscript is mostly well-written and concise, I have major remarks (and suggestions) that the authors need to consider during a major revision process to sustain their claims. In addition, in several occasions the shown graphs do not support the text statements statistically, which I point out in the following major remarks. In addition, an entire Figure is not referred to in the manuscript. Overall, that leaves a bit of a 'premature' impression of the manuscript.

      Major remarks:

      1. In Fig.2 E - G there is a remarkable difference between controls in D compared to F and E compared to G. The difference between the controls in E and G is stronger than the shown significant difference of EcRRNAi to the control in E. How do the authors explain such a difference of the two (basically equal) controls and the high variance in control values shown in G? Are the comparisons of control and EcRRNAi shown in D significantly different?
      2. The authors should consider investigating a EcIRNAi in addition to EcRRNAi. EcR functions as activator, but also as suppressor in the absence of Ecdysone and a EcRRNAi suppresses both functions of EcR. By knocking down EcI the authors would prevent uptake of Ecdysone and thus interfere only with the ligand-induced activating function of EcR.
      3. Upon food supplementation with 20E the authors could not measure a significant effect on systemic growth or midgut maturation (Fig. S3), whereas the dose of 20E they fed (20µg/ml) was already much higher than endogenous 20E level they measured in the midgut (Fig. 2B). The authors should consider to feed larvae with RH5849 (Dr. Ehrenstorfer), which is an insecticide functioning as an ecdysone agonist and was designed for high stability (Wing et al, 1988). RH5849 was already successfully fed to adult Drosophila to investigate the impact of Ecdysone signalling on the adult midgut (Neophytou et al, 2023; Zipper et al, 2025; Zipper et al, 2020) and elicits 20E response. Furthermore, uptake of RH5849 is not limited by the levels of EcI.
      4. Lines 167-169: the authors state that 'Size-matched Lp associated larvae, controlRNAi or EcRRNAi, show longer midguts than their relative GF condition (Fig. 3A, B)', but there are no significant statistics shown for this comparison in Fig. 3A, B.
      5. Why are the authors comparing the carcass length of GF shade RNAi with L.p. control in Fig. 3 D?
      6. In Fig. 3 the authors added the values for numbers of biological replica within the graphs. In Fig. 4 M-P they added the values for number of technical replicas. They should apply adding these two types of values to all graphs and I would suggest to make the difference between biological replica 'n' and technical replica 'N' obvious in the figure.
      7. In Fig. S3C the authors compared L.p. WJL 20E with the GF EtOH control, where is the comparison to the corresponding L.p. WJL EtOH control? The L.p. WJL EtOH control is compared to GF 20E instead.
      8. The authors should include a discussion of how Ecdysone signalling in postmitotic EC is regulating midgut size, which may include recent data from Edgar and Reiff labs (Ahmed et al, 2020; Zipper et al., 2025; Zipper et al., 2020).
      9. There are several recent publications showing a role for gut microbiota in regulating oestrogen metabolism in humans, and implications in oestrogen-related diseases such as endometriosis (Baker et al, 2017; Xholli et al, 2023). More precisely bacteria including Lactobacilli strains produce gut microbial β-glucuronidase enzymes, which reactivate oestrogens (Ervin et al, 2019; Hu et al, 2023). As Drosophila ecdysone is the functional equivalent of mammalian oestrogens (Aranda & Pascual, 2001; Martinez et al, 1991; Oberdörster et al, 2001) these publications should be discussed by the authors.
      10. Fig. S4 is not mentioned at all in the manuscript.

      Minor comments:

      • The authors are inconsistent in indicating their experimental groups. One example is Fig. S3: In A and B they write the GF groups non-italic, whereas the L.p. groups are written italic. In C - E they only partially write the L.p. groups italic. Furthermore, in A, C - E they write 'L.p.', whereas its written 'Lp' and missing the 'WJL' in B.
      • Line 52: The last 'i' in 'Lactobacilli' is not italic.
      • Line 122: Spelling error in 'Surpringsinly'
      • Line 151: Spelling error in 'progenies'. Needs to read 'progeny'.
      • Lines 231-235: Last part of the sentence is repetitive

      References

      Ahmed SMH, Maldera JA, Krunic D, Paiva-Silva GO, Penalva C, Teleman AA, Edgar BA (2020) Fitness trade-offs incurred by ovary-to-gut steroid signalling in Drosophila. Nature 584: 415-419

      Aranda A, Pascual A (2001) Nuclear hormone receptors and gene expression. Physiol Rev 81: 1269-1304

      Baker JM, Al-Nakkash L, Herbst-Kralovetz MM (2017) Estrogen-gut microbiome axis: Physiological and clinical implications. Maturitas 103: 45-53

      Ervin SM, Li H, Lim L, Roberts LR, Liang X, Mani S, Redinbo MR (2019) Gut microbial β-glucuronidases reactivate estrogens as components of the estrobolome that reactivate estrogens. J Biol Chem 294: 18586-18599

      Hu S, Ding Q, Zhang W, Kang M, Ma J, Zhao L (2023) Gut microbial beta-glucuronidase: a vital regulator in female estrogen metabolism. Gut Microbes 15: 2236749

      Martinez E, Givel F, Wahli W (1991) A common ancestor DNA motif for invertebrate and vertebrate hormone response elements. The EMBO journal 10: 263-268

      Neophytou C, Soteriou E, Pitsouli C (2023) The Sterol Transporter Npc2c Controls Intestinal Stem Cell Mitosis and Host-Microbiome Interactions in Drosophila. Metabolites 13

      Oberdörster E, Clay MA, Cottam DM, Wilmot FA, McLachlan JA, Milner MJ (2001) Common phytochemicals are ecdysteroid agonists and antagonists: a possible evolutionary link between vertebrate and invertebrate steroid hormones. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 77: 229-238

      Wing KD, Slawecki RA, Carlson GR (1988) RH 5849, a Nonsteroidal Ecdysone Agonist: Effects on Larval Lepidoptera. Science 241: 470-472

      Xholli A, Cremonini F, Perugi I, Londero AP, Cagnacci A (2023) Gut Microbiota and Endometriosis: Exploring the Relationship and Therapeutic Implications. Pharmaceuticals (Basel) 16 Zipper L, Corominas-Murtra B, Reiff T (2025) Steroid hormone-induced wingless ligands tune female intestinal size in Drosophila. Nature Communications 16: 436

      Zipper L, Jassmann D, Burgmer S, Görlich B, Reiff T (2020) Ecdysone steroid hormone remote controls intestinal stem cell fate decisions via the PPARγ-homolog Eip75B in Drosophila. eLife 9

      Significance

      Brief general assessment before a revision: The study provides important new insights into organ versus systemic growth and show that this is regulated by a central steroid hormonal pathway making this study interesting for a broad audience.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This work by Manley and Vaziri identify brain networks that are associated with trial-to-trial variability during prey-capture and predator avoidance behaviors. However, mixing of signals across space and time make it difficult to interpret the data generated and relate the data to findings from prior work.

      Comments on revisions:'

      In their response to prior reviewer comments, Manley and Vaziri have now provided helpful methodological clarity and additional analyses. The additional work makes clear that the claims of variability and mixing of sensory, motor, and internal variables at the single-cell level are not well supported.

      RESOLUTION<br /> - The new information provided regarding resolution may not be very relevant as this was from an experiment in air. It would be much more informative to show how PSF degrades in the brain with depth.

      DEPTH<br /> - It is helpful to see the registered light-field and confocal images. Both appear to provide poor or little information in regions >200 below the surface (like the hypothalamus), making the claim that whole brain data is being collected at cellular resolution difficult to justify.

      MERGING<br /> - The typical soma at these ages has a radius of 2.5 microns, which corresponds to a volume of 65 microns^3. Given the close packing of most cells, this means that a typical ROI of 750 microns^3 contains more than 10 neurons. Therefore, the authors should not claim they are reporting activity at cellular resolution.<br /> - Furthermore, the fact that these ROIs contains tens of cells brings into question the degree of variability at the single-cell level. For example, if every cluster of 10 cells has one variable cell, then all clusters might be labeled as exhibiting variability even though only 10% of the cells show variability.

      SLOW CALCIUM DYNAMICS<br /> - Convolution/Deconvolution with the inappropriate kernel both have problems, some of which the authors have noted. However, by not deconvolving, the authors are significantly obscuring the interpretation of their data by mixing together signals across time.<br /> - Also, the claim that "neurons highly tuned to a particular stimulus exhibited variability in their responses across multiple presentations of the same stimuli" should be clarified or qualified. It is not clear from what has been shown if the responses are indeed variable, or rather if there is additional activity (or apparent activity) occasionally present that shifts the pre-stimulus baseline around (for example, 3J suggests that in many cases the visual signal from the prior trial is still present when a new trial begins).<br /> - Figure 3A should show when the stimulus occurs, should show some of the prestimulus period, and ideally be off-set corrected so all traces in a given panel start at the same y-value at the beginning of the stimulus period.

      ORTHOGONALITY<br /> - It is now clearer that the visual signal and noise vectors were determined for the entire time series with all trials. Therefore, the concern that sources of activation in advance of a given trial were being ignored is alleviated. The concern remains, however, that these sources are being properly accounted for given potential kernel variations and nonlinearity. Nonetheless, it is recognized that the GCaMP filtering most likely would lead to a decrease in the disparity between two populations.<br /> - The authors' clarification that the analyzed ROIs consist of cell clusters raises the trivial possibility that the observed orthogonality between the visual signal and leading noise vectors is explained by noise simply reflecting the activation of different motor or motor-planning related neurons in an ROI, neurons that are separate from visually-encoding neurons in the same cluster.

      SOURCES of VARIABILITY<br /> - The data presented in Supplemental Figure 3Ei actually is suggestive that eye movements are a significant contributor to the reported variability. Notice how in (1 4) vs (1 5) and (4 7) vs (4 8) there is a notable difference in the distribution of responses. Adding eye kinematic variables to the analysis of Figure S4 could be clarifying.-

    1. synthèse détaillée des principales idées et des faits les plus importants contenus dans les extraits de l'audition de Catherine Vautrin, ministre du Travail, de la Santé et des Solidarités, sur les manquements des politiques de protection de l'enfance.

      Briefing Document : Audition de Catherine Vautrin sur les Manquements des Politiques de Protection de l'Enfance

      Source : Extraits de "🔴 Audition de Catherine Vautrin sur les manquements des politiques de protection de l'enfance" (Format audio/vidéo retransmis sur le site de l'Assemblée nationale).

      Date de l'Audition : Indéterminée dans l'extrait, mais la Ministre mentionne être en poste depuis le 24 décembre dernier.

      Intervenants Principaux :

      • Catherine Vautrin, Ministre du Travail, de la Santé et des Solidarités
      • Mme la Présidente de la Commission
      • Mme la Rapporteure de la Commission d'enquête
      • Autres députés membres de la Commission

      Contexte : L'audition s'inscrit dans le cadre des travaux d'une commission d'enquête parlementaire sur les manquements des politiques de protection de l'enfance en France.

      La Ministre Vautrin, nouvellement nommée (depuis le 24 décembre), est interrogée sur son analyse de la situation actuelle, les blocages existants, les retards dans la publication des décrets et les pistes de réforme envisagées.

      L'audition est retransmise en direct.

      Serment : Catherine Vautrin prête serment de dire la vérité, toute la vérité, rien que la vérité, conformément à l'article 6 de l'ordonnance de 1958.

      Synthèse des Thèmes Principaux et Faits Clés :

      Constat Alarmant de la Situation Actuelle :

      • La protection de l'enfance traverse une "crise extrêmement profonde".
      • Près de 397 000 mesures de placement sont suivies par l'Aide Sociale à l'Enfance (ASE).
      • Le nombre d'enfants confiés à l'ASE augmente de manière importante, notamment les tout-petits, malgré une baisse significative de la natalité en France. Le taux de mesures ASE est passé de 16,6 pour 1000 en 1998 à 22,9 pour 1000 en 2022.
      • La pression s'est accrue avec l'arrivée de nombreux mineurs non accompagnés (MNA), dont 46 200 ont été pris en charge en 2023.
      • Un quart des enfants protégés sont en situation de handicap, représentant potentiellement 50% des hospitalisations en psychiatrie infantile.
      • La parole des enfants placés et anciens placés doit être au cœur de la conception des politiques.
      • Il existe de nombreuses défaillances dans le système.

      Articulation Complexe et Hétérogénéité de la Mise en Œuvre :

      • La politique repose sur une articulation entre l'État (ministères de l'enfance, Justice, Santé, Éducation Nationale), les départements (responsables de l'ASE et de la solidarité), et les associations.
      • Les départements consacrent près de 10 milliards d'euros à ces politiques.
      • Malgré ces moyens, la mise en œuvre est beaucoup trop hétérogène, avec des disparités territoriales importantes.
      • Les conditions de placement et de prise en charge ne sont pas toujours adaptées.
      • Certains juges renoncent à prononcer des placements faute de solutions adaptées.
      • Priorités et Feuille de Route de la Ministre : La Ministre présente cinq priorités, qu'elle aborde avec "l'humilité de quelqu'un qui a pris ces dossiers au mois de janvier".

      Elle insiste sur la nécessité d'être ambitieux et réaliste, de définir un plan d'action précis et d'en mesurer les progrès.

      • Priorité 1 : Fixer des normes et des taux d'encadrement.
      • Les placements représentent 55% des mesures de protection judiciaire.
      • Pouponnières (0-3 ans) : Nécessité urgente de revoir le décret de 1974. Objectif : proposer un décret d'ici fin juin 2025 pour fixer les conditions de prise en charge, incluant la notion d'encadrement et la durée maximale de placement. La pouponnière doit être un lieu temporaire. Proposer une cible initiale de 3 mois, diminuant à 6 semaines.
      • Adoption : Réengager une analyse pour redéfinir les conditions et critères d'adoption des enfants en pouponnière pour lesquels un retour en famille sécurisé n'est pas possible.
      • Établissements d'accueil collectif : Sujet sensible en raison de la disponibilité du personnel et des coûts. Fixer des taux d'encadrement est un objectif, mais nécessite un plan pluriannuel. Proposer une trajectoire pour la fin du 1er semestre 2025 pour une déclinaison dans un décret et le PLF 2026, avec une mise en œuvre sur 5 ans (à partir de 2026).

      • Priorité 2 : Mise en œuvre complète de la loi "Taquet".

      • S'attacher à publier les cinq derniers décrets manquants pour l'application de la loi.

      • Décret sur les agréments (retrait en cas de violence) : Publication espérée pour fin février 2025.
      • Deux décrets sur les PMI (Protection Maternelle et Infantile - objectifs nationaux et normes d'effectifs) : Concertation engagée, publication prévue pour fin avril 2025.
      • Deux décrets nécessitant des développements informatiques (système d'information agréments adoption et base de données agréments assistants familiaux/maternels) : Développements en cours. Le premier devrait être publié en avril 2025, le second annoncé pour novembre 2025, avec une volonté d'accélérer si possible.

      • Priorité 3 : Mieux contrôler les établissements et partager l'information.

      • Envisager une circulaire pour mieux organiser le lien territorial entre les services de l'État et du Ministère de l'Intérieur, potentiellement avec un référent ASE dans les préfectures.

      • Organiser la communication entre départements d'origine et d'accueil en cas de placement dans un autre département.

      • Priorité 4 : Réforme des systèmes d'information.

      • S'appuyer sur les recommandations du rapport Sichel.

      • Converger vers des systèmes d'information réformés (dossier numérique partagé expérimenté).
      • Nécessité de disposer de données en temps réel pour piloter les politiques.
      • Accélérer le déploiement des Comités Départementaux de la Protection de l'Enfance (CDPE), coordonnés par le Président du Département et le Préfet, rassemblant divers acteurs (ASE, PMI, Justice, Éducation Nationale, ARS, organismes de sécurité sociale). Un bilan est demandé pour octobre 2025 en vue d'une généralisation en 2026 si les résultats sont concluants.

      • Priorité 5 : Santé, notamment santé mentale des enfants protégés.

      • Souhait d'une évaluation psychologique systématique à l'entrée dans le dispositif ASE.

      • Lancement d'un appel à projet dans cinq départements dès ce semestre pour travailler sur ce sujet (difficulté de disponibilité des pédopsychiatres).
      • Généraliser les expérimentations réussies "Santé protégée" et "Pegase" dès 2026 pour un réel parcours de soins coordonnés.
      • Soutenir la généralisation des unités d'accueil pédiatrique des enfants en danger (UAPED) : 139 existantes, 25 nouvelles prévues en 2025, avec 4 millions dédiés. Renforcer les 20 territoires les plus denses.
      • Soutenir des projets innovants comme le Centre d'appui à l'enfance.
      • Améliorer les pratiques dès 2025 grâce aux conclusions d'une évaluation globale par la Haute Autorité de Santé.
      • Crise des Professionnels :
      • Le secteur connaît une crise d'attractivité et de fidélisation.
      • 129 100 professionnels sont engagés, mais le nombre de mesures a augmenté de 40% entre 1998 et 2022.
      • Nécessité d'un enjeu de formation : faciliter l'accès aux carrières sociales et médico-sociales (formation initiale, VAE simplifiée).
      • Envisager une évolution de la loi pour autoriser le cumul du métier d'assistant familial avec une autre activité professionnelle. Ce sujet, souvent remonté, est jugé important pour l'attractivité.
      • Corollaire : trouver des solutions pour le droit au répit pour les familles d'accueil.
      • Vers une Refondation : Prévention, Accompagnement et Parcours de Vie :
      • Engager une véritable refondation pour intensifier les efforts en prévention et soutien aux familles.
      • La meilleure protection passe par la création de conditions d'une parentalité protectrice pour éviter les placements.
      • Développer une stratégie de soutien à la parentalité portée par le ministère (diffusion avant la fin du semestre).
      • Transformer l'offre de prise en charge pour garantir l'effectivité des mesures et éviter les ruptures de parcours.
      • Favoriser le placement dans la famille élargie ou chez des tiers de confiance, en prévoyant des dispositions réglementaires pour la vérification de leur honorabilité (lacune actuelle).
      • Favoriser l'adoption chaque fois que possible, en travaillant avec la Justice (accord avec le Garde des Sceaux). Approche conjointe souhaitable entre magistrats, professionnels et départements.
      • Trouver des solutions adaptées pour les enfants en double vulnérabilité (handicap par exemple) en mobilisant l'ensemble du ministère et en développant l'accueil familial et thérapeutique.
      • Garantir un accès réel à la santé et à l'éducation pour chaque enfant (généralisation des parcours de soins coordonnés, prise en compte des spécificités des enfants placés/protégés à l'école).
      • Mieux organiser l'accès aux études supérieures, à l'insertion, à l'autonomie et à l'emploi (mentorat, parrainage, travail avec France Travail).
      • Coopération et Moyens Financiers :
      • La refondation repose sur une coopération pérennisée avec les départements.
      • La protection de l'enfance est le deuxième poste de dépenses sociales pour les départements.
      • Un nouveau cadre de contractualisation orienté sur la prévention sera un levier essentiel.
      • Outils de coordination : montée en puissance du GIP enfance protégée, création du Haut Conseil à l'Enfance.
      • Budget 2025 :Augmentation pérennisée des crédits pour les MNA : passage de 70 à 100 millions d'euros (2023-2024) maintenus en 2025.
      • Stratégie nationale de protection de l'enfance contractualisée avec les départements : moyens consolidés à hauteur de 120 millions d'euros.
      • Lutte contre la prostitution des mineurs : budget pérennisé, maintien de 6 millions d'euros débloqués en 2024.
      • La Ministre se dit prête à aller plus loin.
      • Vision et Engagement :
      • La protection de l'enfance est un enjeu de société qui nous concerne tous.
      • L'engagement est de donner à chacun de ces enfants les moyens de sa réussite.
      • La Ministre s'engage avec humilité et détermination à avancer précisément pour mesurer les points de progrès.

      Échanges et Précisions Post-Exposé Liminaire :

      • Rapporteure :
      • Souligne le caractère émotionnellement impactant des auditions.
      • Partage l'idée de refondation et salue les engagements pris.
      • Revient sur le sujet de la prime Ségur : inégalités de traitement entre départements et associations, créant des difficultés d'attractivité. Pour elle, c'est une erreur profonde liée à la décentralisation de 1983 qui a séparé santé et social. La situation actuelle peut mener à des déficits pour les associations.
      • Insiste sur le manque criant de données (Data) : "pas de Data, pas de visibilité", pas de prospective, pas de recherche longitudinale.
      • Décrit la situation des professionnels qui "cherchent que des places" faute de temps pour être auprès des enfants.
      • Réaffirme la nécessité de normes et de socles nationaux pour garantir un traitement équitable des enfants sur tout le territoire.
      • Met en avant la responsabilité de l'État pour ne pas avoir bougé sur les normes et la revalorisation des métiers.
      • Souligne que la France est le premier pays d'Europe à placer le plus d'enfants en institution, jugeant cela "inacceptable".
      • Critique le manque de coordination interministérielle et la nécessité d'un "pilote dans l'avion".
      • Évoque le manque de formation, notamment chez les juges et les médecins, aux besoins fondamentaux de l'enfant et aux psychotraumas graves. La vision doit être "360°".

      Réponse de la Ministre aux points de la Rapporteure :

      • Reconnaît que la mise en place de la prime Ségur a été compliquée par un périmètre mal défini.

      • Indique travailler activement avec les départements pour "solder le sujet Ségur", potentiellement via une conférence des financeurs début mars.

      • Partage la préoccupation sur les assistants familiaux et l'importance du droit au répit.

      • Confirme que le sujet de la Data est majeur et urgent.

      L'expérimentation Caisse des dépôts est intéressante.

      Le suivi doit être interministériel.

      Elle s'engage à sortir de cette situation.

      • Reconnaît que la place de premier pays d'Europe pour le placement institutionnel est indésirable.

      • S'engage à avancer précisément avec des plans et des suivis pour mesurer les points de progrès.

      • Admet que le manque de normes est lié à l'histoire du secteur en France et n'a pas été suffisamment pris en compte lors de la décentralisation. Un siècle après, il est temps d'y remédier.

      • Souligne le paradoxe entre la préoccupation démographique et l'incapacité à bien accompagner les enfants protégés. Questions des Députés et Réponses de la Ministre :

      • Évaluation des politiques publiques : La Ministre reconnaît un "empilement des dispositifs" et un manque d'évaluation.

      Le rapport de la commission sera une bonne évaluation. Elle propose un plan d'action pour mesurer les résultats.

      • Haut Commissariat à l'Enfance : Le décret est sorti le 10 février. Nomination attendue "dans les semaines qui viennent" (1-2 semaines).

      La Ministre prépare une feuille de route et souhaite garder la responsabilité directe de l'ASE, confiant d'autres sujets au Haut Commissaire (prévention des violences, adoption, parentalité, écrans, petite enfance...).

      • Financement : La Ministre réaffirme les budgets annoncés (MNA, stratégie nationale). Un député s'inquiète des besoins de financement par l'État.

      • Déscolarisation et suivi : Évoque le dispositif "scolarité protégée" et la nécessité d'aller plus loin (taux de redoublement élevés, enfants "Ninies").

      • Prostitution des mineurs :

      La Ministre confirme que c'est un enjeu prioritaire (estimations de 6 à 10 000 mineurs victimes).

      Réaffirme le budget dédié (6 millions) et la nécessité de pilotages locaux.

      • Administrateurs ad hoc : La Ministre renvoie ce sujet au Ministère de la Justice.

      • Contrôle des établissements : L'instruction ministérielle vise à renforcer les contrôles.

      La Ministre souhaite un travail départemental entre services de l'État et du département, sous l'accompagnement du Préfet.

      La situation actuelle est un contrôle par les deux instances, qui mérite "probablement d'être revisitée".

      • Travailleurs sociaux dans les écoles :

      La Ministre évoque la présence d'AESH (qui sont des travailleurs sociaux affectés aux enfants handicapés, pas spécifiquement ASE) comme exemple de personnels autres que les enseignants dans les écoles. Une députée (Mme Adisad) rectifie en précisant que les AESH n'ont pas le statut de travailleur social et n'ont pas accès aux dossiers ou réunions pédagogiques des enfants qu'ils accompagnent.

      Une autre députée (Mme Mesmer) suggère la présence de travailleurs sociaux dans les académies ou écoles pour faire le lien entre Éducation Nationale et départements.

      La Ministre semble ouverte à l'idée et évoque les expérimentations menées.

      • Propos de M. Poiré (Président de département) sur la priorisation des 0-5 ans : Une députée (Mme Mesmer) qualifie ces propos de "scandaleux et dangereux" et interroge la Ministre sur sa réponse à ce désengagement et si elle assume la "suffocation voire la liquidation" du service public de l'enfance.

      La Ministre répond que "les enfants, quels qu'ils soient, quel que soit leur âge, ce sont des enfants" et qu'ils méritent d'être accompagnés et aidés à se reconstruire.

      Elle travaille avec les départements pour apporter des réponses concrètes et assurer le suivi.

      • Budget insuffisant et sanction : Plusieurs députés soulignent l'insuffisance des budgets et l'asphyxie des associations.

      Mme Adisad insiste sur l'absence de sanction en cas de manquement des départements et interroge la Ministre sur les moyens de faire respecter la loi partout et de rétablir l'égalité de traitement.

      Elle cite l'exemple de départements refusant d'accueillir des MNA.

      La Ministre répond que sa responsabilité est de travailler avec les départements pour une politique répondant aux besoins de chaque enfant et assurer l'égalité de traitement.

      Elle mentionne le rôle du Préfet pour regarder et contrôler. Elle précise que la contractualisation avec les départements, dans le cadre d'une politique décentralisée, est un sujet "qui mérite d'être regardé".

      • Sans-abrisme des enfants et hébergement hôtelier :

      Mme Adisad évoque le sans-abrisme de 3000 enfants et le recours à l'hébergement hôtelier.

      Elle demande comment la Ministre compte agir, obtenir des moyens pour ouvrir des places et assurer la coordination interministérielle (Logement, Éducation, Santé, Justice...).

      La Ministre renvoie les politiques de logement au ministère concerné, tout en reconnaissant la nécessité de travailler ensemble en interministériel.

      • Ineffectivité des mesures faute de moyens/places : Une députée (Mme Panonacle) dresse un tableau sombre (mesures non exécutées, ASE "réceptacle" des autres dysfonctionnements, diminution des assistants familiaux, recours à l'intérim coûteux) et demande des mesures concrètes et un calendrier.

      La Ministre renvoie à son propos liminaire qui, selon elle, a présenté une feuille de route précise avec des dates.

      • Attractivité du métier d'assistant familial et cumul d'activité : Mme Collin Esterley évoque la diminution des assistants familiaux et la PPL sénatoriale sur le cumul d'activité.

      Elle interroge sur les limites de ce cumul et les autres mesures d'attractivité.

      La Ministre juge intéressant le cumul si l'activité professionnelle a lieu pendant le temps scolaire de l'enfant, permettant de concilier vie professionnelle et rôle familial.

      Les autres pistes sont la reconnaissance (diplôme) et le droit au répit.

      • Sorties de l'ASE et Contrats Jeunes Majeurs : Mme Adisad critique les "odieux" contrats jeunes majeurs qui ne répondent pas aux attentes.

      Elle insiste sur la nécessité d'un "attachement" pour ces enfants, d'un adulte de référence ("compter pour lui et pouvoir compter sur lui").

      Elle demande si la Ministre va faire cette "révolution". La Ministre reconnaît que les contrats jeunes majeurs ne sont pas satisfaisants.

      Elle partage la notion de confiance et d'affection essentielle.

      Dans un monde idéal, chaque enfant devrait avoir un référent dès le plus tôt possible.

      Elle reconnaît ne pas avoir de solution toute faite mais que c'est une cause nationale qui dépasse l'État et les départements.

      Les mentorats et parrainages sont des pistes.

      • Sanction des manquements : Mme Mesmer réinsiste sur la nécessité de sanctions pour faire respecter la loi, critiquant l'absence de conséquences pour les départements ne respectant pas leurs obligations (MNA, propos de M. Poiré).

      La Ministre réaffirme travailler avec les départements et que l'égalité de traitement est une responsabilité de l'État.

      Elle mentionne les signalements de la Défenseure des droits (dont 5 qu'elle va instruire, dont un en Loire Atlantique), indiquant qu'ils méritent d'être étudiés et donner lieu à des sanctions si nécessaire, en lien avec la Justice.

      Conclusion de la Rapporteure :

      • Souligne l'urgence de la situation ("le temps de l'enfant n'est pas le temps de l'adulte").
      • Exprime l'espoir que la commission permette de "regarder pour devant" et de trouver des solutions partagées.
      • Réaffirme la nécessité de sanctions pour les situations "inacceptables".
      • Met en lumière le constat partagé sur les dysfonctionnements dans l'Éducation Nationale (manque de chiffres, manque de données).
      • Valorise les "belles expériences" existantes dans certains départements ou académies (travailleurs sociaux, protocoles Éducation Nationale/Département) qui devraient être généralisées via des "socles nationaux interministériels".
      • Rappelle la succession rapide de ministres/secrétaires d'État à l'enfance depuis 2022, soulignant un manque de suivi malgré l'annonce d'une "priorité nationale".
      • Affirme que la protection de l'enfance est "un impensé des politiques publiques".
      • Souhaite que le rapport fasse de nombreuses propositions partagées pour que l'ensemble des parlementaires puisse les porter.
      • Souligne le rôle central des associations qui accueillent les enfants.
      • Remercie l'ensemble des participants à l'audition et ceux qui ont contribué.
      • Conclusion de la Présidente :
      • Remercie la Ministre pour sa participation, clôturant le cycle d'auditions.
      • Remercie les témoins, anciens enfants placés, professionnels et députés.
      • Souligne que, malgré des visions parfois différentes de la commission, l'essentiel est de s'entendre sur la nécessité d'agir et que cette commission est un début, pas une fin.

      Points Forts et Idées Clés à Retenir :

      • Reconnaissance unanime d'une crise profonde du système de protection de l'enfance en France.

      • Augmentation continue du nombre d'enfants pris en charge, notamment les plus jeunes et les MNA.

      • Disparités territoriales importantes dans la prise en charge et le manque de solutions adaptées.

      • Manque criant de normes et de données pour piloter efficacement les politiques.

      • Crise d'attractivité et de fidélisation des professionnels, liée notamment aux inégalités de traitement (prime Ségur) et au manque de reconnaissance/répit.

      • Retard important dans la publication des décrets d'application de la loi Taquet.

      • Volonté affichée par la Ministre d'engager une refondation axée sur 5 priorités (normes/encadrement, loi Taquet, contrôle/partage d'info, systèmes d'information, santé/santé mentale).

      • Accent mis sur le renforcement de la prévention et du soutien à la parentalité pour éviter les placements.

      • Intention de favoriser l'accueil familial (famille élargie, tiers de confiance, assistants familiaux) et l'adoption.

      • Nécessité de coordination interministérielle et de coopération renforcée avec les départements.

      • Budgets dédiés annoncés pour les MNA, la stratégie nationale et la lutte contre la prostitution des mineurs.

      • Constat partagé sur le besoin crucial de rétablir l'égalité de traitement pour tous les enfants protégés sur le territoire.

      • La question des sorties de l'ASE et la nécessité d'un adulte référent stable pour les jeunes majeurs est soulevée comme un enjeu majeur et une "cause nationale".

      • Le rôle de l'État pour faire respecter la loi par les départements et éventuellement prévoir des sanctions est un point de tension récurrent dans les échanges.

      • Mise en avant de l'importance de la parole des enfants et anciens placés.

      Prochaines Étapes Mentionnées :

      • Publication des décrets manquants pour la loi Taquet (étalées de fin février à novembre 2025).

      • Conférence des financeurs avec les départements sur le sujet Ségur (début mars).

      • Lancement d'un appel à projet santé mentale dans 5 départements (ce semestre).

      • Proposition d'un décret sur les pouponnières (fin juin 2025).

      • Proposition d'une trajectoire pour les taux d'encadrement en établissements (fin 1er semestre 2025) pour une déclinaison en PLF 2026 et un plan à 5 ans.

      • Nomination du Haut Commissaire à l'Enfance (dans 1-2 semaines).

      • Bilan des CDPE (octobre 2025) en vue d'une généralisation (2026).

      • Généralisation des expérimentations santé "Santé protégée" et "Pegase" (2026).

      • Généralisation des UAPED (2025).

      • Diffusion de la stratégie de soutien à la parentalité (avant fin semestre).

      • Présentation du rapport de la commission d'enquête (début avril, selon la Rapporteure dans un autre passage non inclus dans cet extrait).

      • Ce briefing résume les points essentiels abordés lors de cette audition, offrant une vue d'ensemble des défis, des constats et des premières pistes de travail envisagées par la Ministre en charge de la protection de l'enfance.

    1. Briefing Document : Audition de Rachida Dati sur les Violences dans le Secteur de la Culture

      Ce document résume les principaux points soulevés par la Ministre de la Culture, Rachida Dati, lors de son audition concernant le rôle de son ministère face aux violences sexuelles et sexistes dans le secteur de la culture. Il met en évidence les enjeux, les mesures en cours et les pistes de réflexion pour l'avenir.

      Thèmes Principaux :

      La Rupture avec la Loi du Silence : La Ministre insiste sur la nécessité collective de briser la loi du silence qui a longtemps perduré dans le secteur culturel et au-delà. Elle reconnaît que cette loi du silence a permis aux violences de prospérer. "être ici aujourd'hui avec vous marque notre engagement collectif a brisé enfin la loi du silence cette loi du silence qui a longtemps duré" "ce contexte a a toujours existé mais ça n'a jamais été dénoncé avec cette force puisque pendant des années on a détourné le regard" La Culture n'est pas un Cas Particulier (mais présente des Facteurs de Risque) : Bien que les violences sexuelles et sexistes concernent l'ensemble de la société, le milieu de la culture présente des spécificités (porosité entre vie personnelle et professionnelle, précarité, importance du réseau) qui peuvent favoriser les abus de pouvoir et banaliser les situations d'emprise. "le milieu de la culture ne peut pas s'exonérer de regarder évidemment en face ces questions" "il peut y avoir une porosité parfois même une confusion entre la vie personnelle la vie professionnelle entre l'intimité et le travail oui le corps et la sensibilité sont beaucoup plus exposés que dans n'importe n'importe quel autre secteur la précarité la nécessité d'être reconnu et de faire partie de cette famille du cinéma... sont aussi des contextes qui favorisent les abus de pouvoir qui banalisent des situations d'emprise" L'Ancienne Époque comme Prétexte Inacceptable : La Ministre réfute l'argument selon lequel les violences anciennes seraient excusables car relevant d'une "autre époque" ou d'un "autre contexte". Elle rappelle que le viol et les agressions sexuelles étaient déjà pénalement réprimés par le Code pénal dans les années 70 et 80. La différence réside dans la complaisance et le manque de dénonciation. "pour moi on ne peut pas se contenter de dire évidemment c'était une autre époque" "est-ce queà cette époque la le viol les agressions sexuelles était pénalement réprimé oui c'était dans le code pénal mais on a laissé les tribunes prospérer on a laissé les faits prospérer on les a non seulement expliqué on les a parfois excusé pour ne pas dire encouragé" Le Mouvement #MeToo et le Point de Bascule : Le mouvement #MeToo, initié par l'affaire Weinstein, a marqué un point de bascule, notamment dans le milieu du cinéma et plus largement dans le secteur culturel. Il a permis une libération de la parole et une prise de conscience, bien que la Ministre suggère que son succès ait pu être influencé par la catégorie sociale des personnes impliquées. "l'affaire Weinstein porté par le mouvement Mitou a marqué un point de bascule dans le milieu du cinéma et très vite dans tous les secteurs du spectacle de la musique et de la création dans son ensemble" "ce mouvement Mitou il a été dénoncé j'allais dire par par une certaine catégorie sociale je pense que si ça avait été une autre classe sociale je pense que ce mouvement n'aurait pas eu le succès" La Nécessité d'une Action Collective et Vigile : Malgré les progrès réalisés, la lutte contre les violences sexistes et sexuelles est loin d'être terminée. La Ministre appelle à une vigilance constante, à l'amélioration des dispositifs existants et à une mobilisation collective et responsable. "on pense queon n jamais c'est jamais terminé et donc il faut rester vigilant et évidemment faut améliorer les dispositifs pour ne pas dire les reprendre les et encore une fois les amplifier" "la lutte contre les violences sexistes et sexuelles reste un combat mené collectivement en responsabilité et nous sommes au début d'un processus car je pense que beaucoup de femmes et de mineurs se taisent encore" La Libération de la Parole et l'Augmentation des Chiffres : L'augmentation du nombre de signalements et de cas accompagnés est perçue comme une preuve que les actions menées portent leurs fruits et que la parole se libère. Cette augmentation est une étape nécessaire pour regarder la réalité en face. "Les chiffres vous les avez et je ne vais pas revenir dessus vous me direz que les chiffres augmentent c'est vrai mais c'est aussi la preuve que les actions menées aussi portent leurs fruit la parole se libère ces chiffres vont continuer d'augmenter forcément en acceptant de regarder en face la réalité d'entendre les victimes parce que de plus en plus de cas vont sortir" Le Plan de Lutte du Ministère : Un nouveau plan de lutte contre les violences et le harcèlement sexuel et sexiste sera présenté avant le 8 mars. Ce plan s'adresse au Ministère et à ses établissements, aux structures professionnelles, aux politiques culturelles et aux conditions de travail des mineurs. "j'ai demandé à l'administration de travailler sur un nouveau plan de lutte contre les violences et le sement sexuel et sexiste qui va être représenté avant le 8 mars prochain" Les Levier d'Action du Ministère : La Ministre identifie plusieurs leviers pour agir : La Subvention et les Labels : Possibilité de retirer les aides financières si les mesures préconisées ne sont pas mises en place. Les Textes Réglementaires : Intégration de la lutte contre les VSS dans un maximum de textes, comme l'arrêté sur la santé et la sécurité dans la production cinématographique. Les Licences : Conditionner l'obtention ou le renouvellement des licences d'entrepreneur de spectacle vivant à la formation aux VSS. L'Inspection du Travail : Améliorer l'accès des inspecteurs aux lieux de tournage et de spectacle pour des contrôles inopinés. Le CNC collabore à la rédaction d'un guide de contrôle spécifique. La Formation : Rendre obligatoire la formation aux VSS pour les équipes de tournage, les dirigeants de festivals, les équipes du spectacle vivant et de la musique, et renforcer la connaissance du droit du travail dans les écoles supérieures du ministère. Sensibilisation des présidents d'association. "il y a le levier de la subvention et des labels VO ce qui est attribué peut être retiré et peut être retiré immédiatement si les mesures préconisées ne sont pas évidemment mises en place" "La formation au violence sexiste et sexuelle doit conditionner l'obtention ou le renouvellement de ces licences" "il faudrait qu'on ait en amont le maximum d'information pour pouvoir avoir des contrôles inopinés" "il faut absolument renforcer la connaissance du droit du travail avec des modules obligatoires comme on a sur la santé la sécurité au travail il faudrait rendre ces modules obligatoires dans le cadre et le cas des écoles supérieures qui dépendent du ministère de la Culture" L'Amélioration de l'Accompagnement des Victimes et du Suivi des Signalements : La cellule d'écoute Audience, soutenue par le Ministère, est un dispositif central qui offre un accompagnement juridique et psychologique. Le Ministère souhaite renforcer ce dispositif en élargissant ses horaires et ses attributions (aide à la rédaction de plainte, extension à d'autres secteurs comme la presse). Un meilleur suivi des cas signalés au sein du Ministère est également prévu. "c'est pour répondre à la nécessité d'un espace d' sécure lespè que la fésac et les cinq confédérations syndicales du secteur ont porté cette initiative de cellule d'écoute" "l'élargissement de ces horaires d'ouverture ça sera 2 he 2 heures supplémentaires par jour et de ses attributions notamment à l'accompagnement à la rédaction d'une plainte auprès du Procureur de la République par des avocats mais aussi son extension à de nouveaux secteurs comme celui de la presse dès début 2025" "je veux que le sui des cas signalés soit mieux tracé encore" La Lutte Contre l'Arbitraire et la Nécessité d'Enquêtes Internes Certifiées : La Ministre souligne le problème des enquêtes internes qui peuvent parfois être menées sans processus clair ou objectif, voire pour dédouaner les employeurs. Elle souhaite la certification des organismes réalisant ces enquêtes pour garantir leur impartialité. "on a un problème d'enquête interne ou sur les conclusions de ces enquêtes internes parfois il des enquêtes internes et on a un cas très précis où la victime n'a jamais été entendu" "il faudra évidemment qu'on puisse certifier ces organismes qui font ces enquêtes internes surtout quand elles sont externalisées" La Tolérance Zéro et le Rôle de l'État : La Ministre prône une tolérance zéro face aux délits et crimes, refusant l'idée que certaines affaires puissent "s'arranger". Elle affirme sa conviction en un État fort ayant une responsabilité dans la lutte contre ces violences. Elle suggère d'explorer l'élargissement des critères d'intérêt à agir pour permettre à l'État de se constituer partie civile même si la victime n'ose pas porter plainte. "il faudrait une tolérance zéro sur ces sujets parce que sur les articles 40 ce qu'il faut savoir c'est que souvent on dit euh ça peut s'arranger mais il y a des affaires qui enfin il faut que la justice s'en empare on n'arrange pas des choses qui relèvent du délit ou du crime à mon sens surtout sur les atteintes aux personnes" "moi je crois à un État fort voilà et notamment dans dans ce type de sujet moi je seraai assez favorable de revoir les critères d'intérêt à agir" La Protection des Mineurs, une Priorité Absolue : La Ministre met un accent particulier sur la protection des mineurs, souhaitant étendre la réglementation du travail des mineurs jusqu'à 18 ans et non plus 16. Elle souhaite également que le Ministère ait accès au fichier national judiciaire automatisé des auteurs d'infractions sexuelles (FIJAIS). "et plus encore à l'égard des mineurs cette responsabilité elle est globale et donc chacun doit prendre ses responsabilités" "concernant le sujet particulier des dérogations au travail des mineurs de moins de 16 ans moi je suis je suis pour qu'on on aille jusqu'à 18 ans voilà" "j'ai demandé qu'il fasse partie des autorités administratives ayant la possibilité d'accéder aux données du fichier national judiciaire automatisé des auteurs d'infraction sexuelles" La Surveillance des Structures de Formation (Conservatoires, Maîtrises) : Des mesures spécifiques sont envisagées pour les conservatoires (en particulier les non classés) et les maîtrises afin d'imposer des protocoles de signalement, des formations obligatoires et l'élaboration de guides de bonnes pratiques. L'idée d'un label pour les maîtrises est évoquée. "concernant le sujet sur moi j'ai un sujet sur les conservatoires alors sur les conservatoires notamment euh territoriaux non classés" "un cadre strict doit s'appliquer même si la Commission des enfants du spectacle veille aux conditions de travail des jeunes artistes" "je proposais de travailler sur un label pour concernant ces maîtrises qui reposerait sur la présence de personnes formées et qui s'appuie sur un projet pédagogique clair" La Lutte Contre l'Entre-Soi et la Reproduction Sociale : La Ministre dénonce l'entre-soi, la reproduction sociale et le manque de diversité dans les instances de pouvoir et les processus de nomination au sein du ministère et des structures culturelles. "je pense que ce mouvement n'aurait pas eu le succès j' dire malheureuse malheureusement qu'il a eu aujourd'hui il était temps que cette prise de conscience est lieu car je l'ai dit le contraste entre les valeurs défendues par la profession et certains comportements que l'on pouvait y observer devenit intolérable pour la société dans son ensemble" "moi j'ai été très surprise du peu de renouvellement on reprend les mêmes" "c'est aussi ça c'est-à-dire que cette ce ce cette reproduction sociale et sociale d'une certaine catégorie il faudrait ça serait bien qu'elle qu'elle s'arrête un peu mais moi je serai vous je regarderai les process de nomination dans un ministère comme la culture et à tous les niveaux et les conseils d'administration" La Question de l'Homme et de l'Œuvre : La Ministre aborde la difficulté de séparer l'homme de l'artiste, constatant que ce débat semble s'appliquer différemment selon les catégories sociales. Elle estime que l'art ne doit pas servir de bouclier ou d'excuse aux crimes et délits. "tout le sujet c'est aujourd'hui de pouvoir décorréler j'allais dire le statut euh on dit on décorelle l'homme de l'œuvre ou je sais pas quoi de l'artiste je sais pas quoi là" "quand ce sont des artistes ou des milieux très favorisé de pouvoir notamment dans les arts on dit mais ce sont des artistes donc voilà... ce qui est crime et déit devient finalement pas une circonstance atténuante ça devient un art voilà de pouvoir agresser quelqu'un c'est presque artistique" Points Clés et Faits Importants :

      Augmentation de l'accompagnement : Entre 2023 et 2024, la cellule d'écoute Audience a enregistré une augmentation de plus de 50% des accompagnements psychologiques et plus de 77% des conseils juridiques. Manque de Centralisation des Données : La Ministre souligne le manque de centralisation des signalements et des "articles 40" (signalements au procureur) au sein du ministère, rendant difficile le suivi. Articles 40 Déposés : Quatre "articles 40" ont été déposés par le ministère depuis l'arrivée de la Ministre, ce qu'elle juge insuffisant. Accès au FIJAIS : Le Ministère a obtenu l'accès au FIJAIS depuis le 4 décembre 2024. Extension du travail des mineurs : Volonté d'étendre la réglementation du travail des mineurs jusqu'à 18 ans. Création d'une Direction Enseignement et Formation : Une nouvelle direction sera créée au ministère pour avoir des interlocuteurs uniques pour les écoles et y intégrer des modules sur le droit du travail et les VSS. Classes Préparatoires Publiques : Projet de doubler le nombre de classes préparatoires publiques aux écoles d'art pour favoriser la démocratisation. Coordinateurs d'Intimité : Bien que généralisés dans le cinéma, leur obligation sera étudiée pour le spectacle vivant. La contractualisation et la validation des scènes intimes par les comédiens sont jugées favorables. Clause d'Assurance : Existence d'une clause d'assurance interruption de tournage en cas de dénonciation (depuis 2021, non utilisée), avec la volonté de travailler avec les assureurs pour l'améliorer ou la rendre obligatoire. Points Soulevés par le Rapporteur et la Présidente de la Commission (en réaction à la Ministre) :

      Décalage entre Dispositifs et Réalité : Malgré les dispositifs mis en place, les témoignages reçus par la commission montrent un décalage avec la réalité des violences qui semblent systémiques. Manque d'Étude de Victimation : Proposition de lancer une grande étude de victimation pour avoir un état des lieux précis. Suivi des Témoignages d'Audience : Interrogation sur le devenir des témoignages recueillis par Audience et la possibilité d'une assistance juridique. Détection par Signaux Faibles : Suggestion d'enquêtes diligentées en cas de nombreux signalements dans un même lieu. Travail des Enfants : Proposition d'interdire le travail des enfants très jeunes sauf exception, de rendre obligatoire un rapport de fin de tournage par le responsable enfant, de renforcer la relation Tali-Santé-équipes de tournage, et de certifier les accompagnateurs d'enfants. Casting des Enfants : Soulèvement du danger des castings non couverts par la relation de travail et la responsabilité du producteur. Honorabilité des Encadrants : Difficulté pour les associations de contrôler l'honorabilité des intervenants auprès des enfants et suggestion de permettre la consultation du B2 ou l'intervention des services préfectoraux. Méconnaissance du Droit du Travail : Constat d'une méconnaissance importante du droit du travail dans le secteur culturel, et proposition de renforcer sa formation dans les écoles et formations. CHSCT : Constat de l'absence de CHSCT dans le spectacle vivant et la musique, et question de leur mise en place. Registres de Tournage : Proposition d'un registre des lieux de tournage accessible à l'inspection du travail. Quotas de Diversité : Question sur la pertinence des quotas dans les programmations pour favoriser la diversité. Affaire de Fonctionnaire du Ministère : Interrogation sur la reconnaissance par le ministère de défaillances dans l'affaire du fonctionnaire ayant administré des produits éthiques. Ce briefing document offre un aperçu complet des enjeux et des actions envisagées par le Ministère de la Culture pour faire face aux violences sexuelles et sexistes, tout en soulignant les défis persistants et les pistes de réflexion pour l'avenir.

    1. Note de Synthèse : La Situation de la Protection de l'Enfance en France

      Source Principale : Extraits de "Situation dégradée de la protection de l’enfance" : la Défenseure des droits sur sa décision-cadre

      Introduction

      La Défenseure des droits présente une situation alarmante et "dégradée" de la protection de l'enfance en France, soulignant de "graves atteintes à l'intérêt supérieur et aux droits des enfants".

      Ces constats, déjà dénoncés dans de précédents rapports (parlementaires, Cour des comptes, IGAS), mettent en évidence un écart significatif entre les droits inscrits dans la loi et leur application effective sur le terrain.

      La décision-cadre de la Défenseure des droits, accompagnée de décisions spécifiques par département, vise à rappeler le rôle central de l'État en tant que garant de la Convention internationale des droits de l'enfant et à proposer 46 recommandations pour améliorer la situation.

      Thèmes Principaux et Idées Clés

      • La Dégradation de la Situation et l'Écart entre Droit et Effectivité :
      • La situation de la protection de l'enfance ne s'améliore pas, elle s'aggrave.
      • Il existe un "écart entre les droits annoncés et leur effectivité".
      • Les constats sont "nombreux et accablants".
      • Citation : "ce qui est très frappant c'est que ces droits sont indissociables interdépendants au nom du bon développement de l'enfant c'estàd qu'on ne peut pas saissonner entre guillemets ces droits"
      • Citation : "ce qu'on observe et vous l'avez un peu dit par rapport à la loi en fait on observe un écart entre les droits annoncés et leur effectif et et c'est une des choses que je vais vous dire on pense pas qu' qu'il a de changement flagrant à faire dans la loi"
      • Citation : "comment on en est encore là en 2024 2025 mais comment on en est dans une situation qui s'aggrave en fait parce que la situation non seulement elle ne s'améliore pas et elle s'aggrave"
      • Les Dysfonctionnements Concrets du Dispositif :
      • Non-exécution des décisions de justice : Des décisions de placement ou d'accompagnement en milieu ouvert ne sont pas appliquées faute de place ou de moyens.
      • Citation : "des décisions de justice n'était pas appliquée euh que ce soit en accompagnement au milieu ouvert ou en en placement avec une saturation clairement du dispositif de protection de l'enfance"
      • Manque de places d'accueil : Enfants accueillis dans des lieux "non autorisés" (gîtes, appartements de location, hôtels) avec du personnel intérimaire.
      • Citation : "des accueils d'enfants dans des lieux non autorisés des gites des locations d'appartements des hôtels avec des éducateurs intérimaire"
      • Retards dans les prises en charge : Délais dans l'évaluation du danger, les mesures éducatives à domicile (AED), les prises en charge en santé mentale.
      • Citation : "nous on est très inquiet du retard dans les prises en charge d'emo [évaluations des situations de danger] parce qu'en fait la situation s'aggrave et c'est comme ça qu'on arrive qu'on arrive au placement"
      • Ruptures dans les parcours : Déscolarisations, ruptures de liens familiaux dues aux changements fréquents de lieux d'accueil.
      • Manque de contrôle : Contrôle insuffisant des structures d'accueil et des familles d'accueil, conduisant à des maltraitances non prises en compte.
      • Citation : "des maltraitances non prises en compte d'un enfant dans un établissement ou dans une famille d'accueil qui renvoie au manque de contrôle au manque de moyens d'ailleurs aussi pour contrôler et les établissements et les familles d'accueil"
      • Non-respect des droits de l'enfant : Droits de visite non respectés, information insuffisante sur leurs droits (notamment droit à l'avocat).
      • Citation : "l'enfant n'est pas toujours suffisamment informé de ses droits je partage complètement votre point de vue ça doit nous interroger quand on sait que la France a ratifié la Convention internationale des droits de l'enfant il y a plus de 30 ans"
      • Les Conséquences Dramatiques :
      • La non-exécution des placements peut avoir des conséquences fatales, comme le décès d'un enfant de 3 ans faute d'exécution d'une ordonnance de placement immédiat.
      • Citation : "insister sur les conséquences dramatiques avec un exemple très précis d'un enfant de 3 ans qui est décédé à son domicile alors qu'il faisait l'objet d'un placement qui faute de place n'avait pas été exécuté"
      • Impact négatif sur la santé psychique des enfants en raison des ruptures et de l'instabilité.
      • Enfants laissés à l'hôpital faute de place d'accueil, ce qui est "totalement délétère pour l'enfant".
      • Citation : "certains nourrissant faute de place d'accueil restent hospitalisés pendant plusieurs semaines voire plusieurs mois dans des services de pédiatrie"
      • Le Rôle Central de l'État et la Coordination Nécessaire :
      • L'État est le garant de l'application de la Convention internationale des droits de l'enfant.
      • La protection de l'enfance est au "croisement de nombreuses politiques publiques qui relève justement de la compétence de l'État" (solidarité, justice, éducation, santé).
      • Une action "coordonnée entre les différents acteurs" est indispensable.
      • La décentralisation est une bonne chose, mais l'État doit jouer son rôle et "s'est probablement un peu trop dégager là-dessus de ses responsabilités".
      • Citation : "remettre le rôle de l'État au centre de cette question de la protection de de l'enfance c'est l'État qui est garant de l'application de la convention internationale droits de l'enfant"
      • Citation : "ce que nous voulons et je vous le redis c'est mettre en avant la responsabilité de l'État euh et tout en redisant que c'est seulement une action coordonnée entre les différents acteurs qui permettra euh de de s'en sortir"
      • Les Causes de l'Aggravation :
      • Meilleur dépistage des situations de danger.
      • Aggravation des situations due au Covid, à la pauvreté, aux femmes isolées, à l'usage des écrans.
      • Difficultés croissantes des services publics (école, santé).
      • Difficultés d'accès au logement.
      • Manque de moyens humains et financiers (assistants familiaux, foyers, personnels médico-sociaux).
      • Citation : "plusieurs raisons sans aucun doute un meilleur dépistage euh des situations qui se sont aggravées aussi alors avec le covid la pauvreté les femmes isolées l'usage des écrans des services publics de plus en plus en difficulté que ce soit l'école la santé dans les délais de pr en charge"
      • Les Enjeux Liés à la Santé Mentale :
      • Accès difficile aux soins en santé mentale pour les enfants confiés à l'ASE (délais importants, hospitalisation en secteur adulte).
      • Les enfants en protection de l'enfance représentent une part disproportionnée des enfants hospitalisés en psychiatrie.
      • Le manque de moyens en pédopsychiatrie contribue aux difficultés.
      • Nécessité de renforcer la pluridisciplinarité et le partenariat entre les champs socio-éducatifs et médicopsychologiques.
      • Citation : "les difficultés d'accès aux soins en santé mentale pour les enfants confiés à la zeu ainsi que sur la considération que notre société accorde au politiques de la lutte contre la pauvreté au soutien à la parentalité à la protection de l'enfance"
      • Citation : "ces enfants en protection de l'enfance qui représente 2 % des mineurs enfance constituent jusqu'à la moitié des enfants hospitalisé en psychiatrie et dont certains et on l'avait déjà alerté là-dessus hospitalisé en secteur adulte"
      • L'Éducation et l'Inclusion :
      • Difficultés d'accès à l'éducation, multiples déscolarisations dues aux ruptures de parcours.
      • Manque de données précises sur le nombre d'enfants non scolarisés ou en situation de handicap pris en charge par l'ASE.
      • Difficultés d'inclusion scolaire pour les enfants en situation de handicap (manque de dispositifs adaptés, de soutien par des AESH).
      • La scolarisation des enfants en situation de handicap nécessite plus que des AESH (formation des enseignants, taille des classes).
      • Vulnérabilité des enfants en situation de handicap face au harcèlement scolaire.
      • Citation : "on ne sait pas combien d'enfants ne sont pas ne bénéficient pas d'une scolarité d'une éducation"
      • Citation : "l'objectif d'une plus grande inclusion des enfants en situation de handicap évidemment doit être salué mais mais de nombreux enfants souffrent d'un absence d'une absence de prise en charge faute de dispositifs inclusifs en nombre suffisant ou de dispositifs réellement adaptés à leur à leurs besoins"
      • Le Soutien à la Parentalité et la Prévention :
      • Soutien à la parentalité est essentiel, l'État devant accorder l'aide appropriée aux parents.
      • L'intervention précoce (EMO, AED, TISF) est cruciale et fait partie de la prévention.
      • La politique de logement joue un rôle fondamental.
      • Importance de la prévention spécialisée (éducateurs de rue), bien que leurs budgets diminuent.
      • Le rôle des communes dans le soutien à la parentalité est important.
      • Citation : "la politique de logement là-dessus joue un rôle absolument fondamental le soutien à la parentalité est un autre point qui nous paraît essentiel je je je vous rappelle l'article 18 de l'acide hein qui qui dit bien que si élev un enfant est de la responsabilité première de ses parents l'État doit accorder l'aide appropriée aux parents dans l'exercice de la responsabilité qui leur incombe"
      • La Situation des Jeunes Majeurs (Après 18 ans) :
      • Un quart des sans-abri nés en France ont connu un parcours à l'ASE, interrogeant l'efficacité de la politique et la promesse d'égalité des chances.
      • Citation : "qu'un sansabri sur qu né en France a connu un parcours à l'aide sociale à l'enfance on peut effectivement s'interroger sur l'efficacité de cette politique et plus généralement sur notre promesse d'égalité des chances"
      • Nécessité de permettre aux jeunes d'avoir des "projets ambitieux", d'accéder aux études supérieures.
      • Les jeunes de l'ASE sont davantage orientés vers des cycles courts et professionnalisants.
      • Manque de "sortie sèche à 18 ans", nécessité d'un accompagnement obligatoire jusqu'à 21 ans.
      • Non-respect de l'obligation d'entretien un an avant la majorité.
      • Utilisation inappropriée du Contrat d'Engagement Jeune à la place du contrat jeune majeur pour l'accompagnement vers les études.
      • Difficultés d'accès aux aides financières (ARS, etc.).
      • Interprétation restrictive de la loi par certains départements, conduisant à arrêter la prise en charge des apprentis ayant de faibles revenus, ce qui "précarise un jeune un public vulnérable".
      • La Crise du Travail Social :
      • Épuisement des travailleurs sociaux, perte de sens, crise.
      • Absentéisme important dans certaines équipes.
      • Nécessité de décharger les travailleurs sociaux des tâches administratives.
      • Manque de référentiel national pour le nombre de mesures par travailleur social.
      • Importance de l'implication des travailleurs sociaux dans l'élaboration des politiques publiques.
      • Citation : "l'épuisement des travailleurs sociaux et ça vous le savez que trop bien une perte de sens une crise du travail social dans certaines équipes près de la moitié des agents habituels ne sont pas présents"
      • Recommandations Clés (parmi les 46) :
      • Mettre l'accent sur l'effectivité de la loi existante plutôt qu'une réforme législative majeure.
      • Initier des travaux sur les missions et le statut des administrateurs ad hoc.
      • Clarifier et simplifier le régime légal relatif au contentieux de la responsabilité de l'État et des départements en cas de défaillance de l'ASE.
      • Impliquer les familles, enfants et travailleurs sociaux dans l'élaboration des politiques publiques.
      • Former l'intégralité des acteurs.
      • Renforcer les politiques de solidarité (logement, accès aux droits).
      • Traiter toutes les informations préoccupantes.
      • Renforcer les services sociaux des établissements.
      • Renforcer les actions de prévention et de lutte contre la prostitution et la traite des êtres humains.
      • Mieux contrôler les lieux d'accueil (familles, foyers).
      • Poursuivre l'extension et la diversification des lieux d'accueil (familial et institutionnel).
      • Améliorer la coordination des différents acteurs.
      • Garantir un accompagnement continu et adapté pour les enfants en situation de handicap.
      • Rendre obligatoire un suivi des jeunes majeurs jusqu'à 21 ans avec accès garanti (logement, santé, emploi).
      • Mettre en place des délégués aux droits des enfants dans les préfectures (proposition).
      • Ne pas préconiser une renationalisation de la protection de l'enfance, mais renforcer le rôle de l'État.
      • La Procédure et le Suivi :
      • La Défenseure des droits a été saisie par des travailleurs sociaux et alertée par des magistrats (auto-saisine).
      • Les décisions sont basées sur une approche juridique rigoureuse, des déplacements sur le terrain, des rencontres avec les acteurs.
      • Les départements et l'État ont 4 mois pour répondre aux décisions.
      • Un suivi des recommandations sera effectué.
      • Si les recommandations ne sont pas suivies, la question d'un rapport spécial (publication au Journal officiel avec nom de l'organisme mis en cause) pourra se poser.
      • Citation : "Nous ne pourrons pas aller en enquête dans les 100 départements et donc on va régulièrement renvoyer plutôt notre décision cadre qui rappelle les fondements de ce que de ce que nous défendons"
      • Citation : "le suivi vous m'avez posé aussi une question sur le suivi alors là on leur donne 4re mois pour répondre quand même"
      • Citation : "La question se pose si on n'est pas du tout suivi vous savez qu'on a pas de pouvoir de contrainte de fort pouvoir d'enquête la question du rapport spécial pourra se poser vous savez que le rapport spécial c'est publication au Journal officiel avec le nom de l'organisme mise en cause"

      Conclusion

      • Le briefing met en lumière une crise profonde et systémique de la protection de l'enfance en France. Malgré l'engagement des professionnels et les efforts des départements, la situation se dégrade en raison d'un manque de moyens, d'une insuffisance de coordination et d'un écart important entre les droits inscrits dans la loi et leur application concrète.

      La Défenseure des droits insiste sur la responsabilité de l'État, la nécessité d'une action coordonnée et la mise en œuvre effective des recommandations pour garantir les droits fondamentaux et l'intérêt supérieur des enfants, en particulier les plus vulnérables.

      L'absence de renationalisation est privilégiée au profit d'un renforcement du rôle de l'État dans le cadre de la décentralisation.

      Ce document fournit un aperçu des principaux points abordés par la Défenseure des droits et les parlementaires lors de cet échange.

    1. Document de synthèse : Analyse des sources sur la prescription des violences sexuelles

      Ce document de synthèse examine les points clés et les arguments présentés dans les extraits de l'audition des professeures de Droit et ex-membres de la CIIVISE sur la prescription des violences sexuelles.

      1. Constat général et contexte :

      • Les violences sexuelles constituent un phénomène de masse en France, avec un nombre élevé de victimes déclarées (270 000 en 2023 selon le ministère de l'Intérieur).
      • Le mouvement #MeToo a libéré la parole des victimes, mais de nombreuses plaintes pour faits anciens sont classées sans suite en raison de la prescription.
      • Les victimes mettent souvent des années, voire des décennies, à pouvoir nommer ou se souvenir des violences subies et à dénoncer leurs agresseurs, parfois en raison d'amnésie traumatique.
      • La question de la prescription est donc centrale dans la problématique des violences sexuelles.

      • Réglementation actuelle et réformes récentes :

      • Les règles de prescription ont été assouplies et élargies par des réformes successives.

      • Actuellement, le délai de prescription pour les crimes sexuels sur mineurs est de 30 ans à compter de la majorité de la victime.
      • Pour le viol sur majeur, le délai est de 20 ans à compter de la commission du crime.
      • Un dispositif de prescription glissante existe pour les crimes sexuels sur mineurs : si l'auteur commet une nouvelle infraction sexuelle sur un autre mineur avant l'expiration du délai initial, le délai de prescription du crime initial est prolongé jusqu'à la date de prescription de la nouvelle infraction.

      3. Propositions et débats :

      • La CIIVISE préconise l'imprescriptibilité des crimes sexuels commis contre les mineurs dans son rapport de novembre 2023.
      • Une proposition de loi d'Aurore Berger prévoit l'imprescriptibilité des viols commis sur des mineurs en matière civile (pour la réparation du dommage) et non pénale (Article 1er).
      • L'Article 2 de cette proposition de loi vise à étendre le dispositif de prescription glissante aux majeurs.
      • Ces questions suscitent des débats tant juridiques que sociétaux.

      4. Analyse de la prescription glissante et de son extension aux majeurs :

      • Arguments favorables à l'extension aux majeurs :D'un point de vue purement juridique, cela ne soulève pas de problématique et constitue un choix politique possible (Audrey Darsonville).
      • C'est un mécanisme pertinent et légitime, car le caractère sériel des infractions visées pallie les difficultés de preuve et fait obstacle au droit à l'oubli (Julie Klein).
      • Rien ne justifie techniquement que ce mécanisme soit réservé aux seules victimes mineures, le caractère sériel étant identique (Julie Klein).
      • L'extension permettrait de lutter contre le caractère hautement sériel des violences sexuelles (Karine Durrieu-Diebolt).
      • Un acte d'enquête dans une affaire permettrait l'interruption dans toutes les autres affaires impliquant le même auteur, y compris pour les majeurs (Audrey Darsonville).
      • L'absence d'extension aux majeurs crée une injustice pour les victimes dont les faits sont prescrits mais qui pourraient être rattachées à des faits plus récents du même auteur (Karine Durrieu-Diebolt).
      • Points de vigilance et interrogations :Il est impossible de faire un bilan de la prescription glissante actuelle car elle est trop récente (2 ans) (Audrey Darsonville).
      • L'efficacité de la prescription glissante, notamment pour les auteurs sériels qui se déplacent, suppose une coordination nationale renforcée des services de police (Audrey Darsonville).
      • Le mécanisme crée une "chaîne" de prescriptions. Que se passe-t-il si une infraction dans la chaîne disparaît (par exemple, n'est pas caractérisée ou change de qualification) ? Il n'y a pas de dispositif normatif pour éviter que cela ne brise toute la chaîne, ce qui pourrait être difficile à expliquer aux victimes (Audrey Darsonville).
      • Si la prescription glissante est étendue aux majeurs, elle sera sollicitée pour d'autres infractions (comme les homicides en série) car la spécificité actuelle réside dans les victimes mineures. C'est un choix de politique pénale à assumer (Audrey Darsonville).

      5. Analyse de l'imprescriptibilité :

      • Imprescriptibilité pénale (sur les mineurs) :Audrey Darsonville y est plutôt défavorable.
      • Elle estime que les réformes récentes ont déjà largement allongé la prescription (30 ans à partir de la majorité) avec de nombreux actes interruptifs possibles, rendant l'imprescriptibilité pénale moins nécessaire.
      • Elle doute que la justice pénale soit en mesure d'apporter une réponse efficace à des plaintes extrêmement tardives.
      • Elle perçoit l'imprescriptibilité pénale comme une "façon un peu à moindre coût d'offrir une réponse qui ne sera pas assorti de véritable opportunités pénales".
      • La justice pénale ne peut pas être le seul outil de réparation. D'autres outils comme la justice restaurative, peu développée en France, pourraient offrir une réponse structurée.
      • L'ouverture des enquêtes sur faits prescrits devrait être inscrite dans la loi, car même sans réponse pénale pour les faits prescrits, cela peut permettre de remonter à des victimes plus récentes et ainsi de poursuivre l'auteur. Cet outil est jugé plus efficient que l'imprescriptibilité pénale.
      • Arnaud Gallet y est favorable, estimant que c'est un choix de société pour répondre à la sérialité et au traumatisme des victimes. Il souligne que d'autres pays ont mis en place l'imprescriptibilité avec succès.
      • Imprescriptibilité civile (sur les mineurs) :Audrey Darsonville, en tant que pénaliste, soulève des interrogations : que pourra faire le juge civil que le juge pénal ne peut pas faire, le juge civil ne disposant pas des mêmes outils d'investigation ?
      • Elle s'inquiète de la symbolique de l'imprescriptibilité de l'indemnisation, craignant que cela ne renforce l'idée que les victimes déposent plainte pour l'argent, alors que leur demande première est pénale (sanction de l'auteur et reconnaissance du statut de victime). Elle juge ce débat "assez néfaste".
      • Karine Durrieu-Diebolt y est favorable.
      • Elle souligne la diversité et la complexité des délais de prescription actuels (tribunal civil, CIVI), qui rendent la compréhension difficile pour les victimes et les justiciables. L'imprescriptibilité civile permettrait d'harmoniser les délais.
      • Elle met en avant les avancées jurisprudentielles, notamment l'arrêt de la Cour de cassation du 7 juillet 2022 qui retient la date de fin de la thérapie comme point de départ du délai de prescription pour la réparation civile, allongeant considérablement les délais. Elle a personnellement des affaires en cours basées sur cette jurisprudence qui montrent la possibilité d'obtenir réparation civile même si les faits sont prescrits pénalement.
      • Elle souligne que même si ce n'est pas une reconnaissance pénale, c'est une forme de reconnaissance pour les victimes.
      • Elle explique que les victimes déposent souvent une plainte pénale même prescrite pour bénéficier de l'enquête préliminaire et recueillir des preuves pour une action civile.
      • Elle mentionne les avancées technologiques (ADN, échanges numériques, confidences) qui peuvent faciliter la preuve même après de nombreuses années.
      • Julie Klein y est plus réservée.
      • Elle juge cette proposition théoriquement criticable et pratiquement inutile.
      • Elle conteste l'idée que l'imprescriptibilité civile ne soulève pas les obstacles de l'imprescriptibilité pénale, estimant que les règles d'administration de la preuve sont plus rigides en matière civile et que la victime est seule à porter la charge de la preuve sans le bénéfice du travail des enquêteurs. Les obstacles à une action tardive se retrouvent donc au moins à l'identique.
      • L'imprescriptibilité est un mécanisme étranger au droit de la prescription extinctive en matière civile, visant un intérêt purement privé (pécuniaire), ce qui la rend moins légitime théoriquement qu'en droit pénal.
      • Elle considère la proposition pratiquement inutile car la jurisprudence actuelle (arrêt du 7 juillet 2022 sur la consolidation du dommage psychologique) permet déjà dans les faits une imprescriptibilité de facto dans certains cas, la consolidation étant très difficile à atteindre.
      • Paradoxalement, la position de la jurisprudence, en appliquant la notion de consolidation indépendamment de l'âge de la victime, est plus protectrice pour les victimes majeures que la proposition de loi qui limite l'imprescriptibilité civile aux seules victimes mineures.

      6. Points spécifiques et transversaux :

      • Choc traumatique et amnésie dissociative : Ces phénomènes expliquent pourquoi les victimes mettent du temps à parler. Le droit actuel ne prend pas suffisamment en compte cette temporalité spécifique. L'amnésie dissociative n'est pas un simple oubli mais un mécanisme neurobiologique. Il est "inacceptable" qu'une victime retrouvant la mémoire trop tard ne puisse agir en justice (Julie Delpech). L'inscription de la prise en compte de l'amnésie traumatique dans la loi est demandée par certains experts pour contrer la théorie des faux souvenirs (Arnaud Gallet).
      • Caractère sériel des violences sexuelles : C'est un élément central qui justifie des adaptations de la prescription (Karine Durrieu-Diebolt, Julie Klein).
      • Accès à la justice pour les victimes : La prescription actuelle limite l'accès à la justice pour les victimes. L'objectif des propositions est d'offrir un cadre plus juste et adapté à leur parcours (Julie Delpech).
      • Rôle de la justice pénale et punitivité :Certains s'interrogent sur la possibilité ou la souhaitabilité pour la justice pénale de devenir un "instrument thérapeutique" (question de Mme Toria, faisant écho aux propos de Julie Klein).
      • Le "populisme pénal" et le renforcement continu de l'arsenal punitif, alimenté par la souffrance des victimes, peut masquer l'indigence des politiques publiques de protection et empêcher de penser les causes et les moyens de prévention/réparation (André Toria).
      • Le procès pénal n'a pas été pensé pour la victime fondamentalement, et le phénomène de victimisation secondaire est important (André Toria).
      • Les victimes ne cherchent pas la justice pénale pour un bien psychique mais pour une reconnaissance (Karine Durrieu-Diebolt). Le parcours thérapeutique est parallèle.
      • Difficultés probatoires : L'allongement des délais peut rendre la preuve plus difficile, mais les difficultés existent déjà peu de temps après les faits (Karine Durrieu-Diebolt). Il ne faut pas sous-estimer le risque pour les victimes de subir une double peine (le traumatisme et le rejet de la justice) (Julie Klein).
      • Exemples internationaux : Des pays comme l'Écosse, la Belgique et certains États américains ont mis en place l'imprescriptibilité. Ces expériences montrent une baisse des classements sans suite lorsque ces mesures s'accompagnent de moyens suffisants, de formations massives (notamment sur les stéréotypes de genre et le psychotrauma), et d'une volonté politique forte (Arnaud Gallet, Karine Durrieu-Diebolt). Le sens de la loi est crucial (Arnaud Gallet).
      • Hiérarchie des crimes : L'extension de l'imprescriptibilité au-delà des crimes contre l'humanité soulève des questions sur la dilution de sa portée symbolique (Gisèle Lelouis). Cependant, il est possible d'inscrire l'imprescriptibilité pour les crimes sexuels parmi les crimes les plus graves sans remettre en question la spécificité des crimes contre l'humanité, par une hiérarchisation claire dans le droit (Arnaud Gallet citant Benjamin Maître).
      • Nécessité d'une approche globale : La succession de réformes ponctuelles sans recul n'est peut-être pas la meilleure politique législative (Julie Klein). Il faudrait une approche globale et systémique des violences, potentiellement par une loi cadre (Marie Charlotte Garin, Julie Klein).
      • Signalement des faits : Le signalement des faits par des tiers est fondamental et peut permettre aux victimes de franchir le pas de la plainte, surtout pour les personnes vulnérables (Arnaud Gallet). Le taux élevé de "non dénonciation" souligne l'importance d'un réflexe protecteur de la société.
      • Impact des réformes sur le nombre de plaintes : L'augmentation significative du nombre de plaintes (de 23 000 en 2019 à 67 000 en 2023) suggère que la médiatisation et les évolutions législatives encouragent les victimes à parler (Arnaud Gallet).
      • Formation des professionnels : La formation des policiers, magistrats et autres professionnels à l'accueil de la parole des victimes et aux stéréotypes de genre est essentielle et pourrait changer le biais de l'enquête (Karine Durrieu-Diebolt, Arnaud Gallet).

      7. Conclusion :

      Les sources soulignent la nécessité d'adapter le droit de la prescription pour mieux prendre en compte le parcours des victimes de violences sexuelles, marqué par le choc traumatique, l'amnésie et le caractère sériel des agressions.

      L'extension de la prescription glissante aux majeurs semble recueillir un certain consensus sur sa légitimité et sa pertinence.

      Le débat sur l'imprescriptibilité, qu'elle soit pénale ou civile, est plus complexe.

      S'il y a un fort plaidoyer en faveur de l'imprescriptibilité, notamment en raison de la colère des victimes face à l'impunité et des exemples internationaux, des réserves sont émises quant à son efficacité réelle sans moyens d'enquête accrus et sans une réflexion plus large sur le rôle de la justice et la réparation.

      L'importance d'une approche globale, de formations pour les professionnels et d'une volonté politique forte pour accompagner toute évolution législative est un point majeur soulevé par plusieurs intervenants.

    1. Note d'information : Audition d'Adrien Taquet sur les manquements des politiques de protection de l'enfance

      Date de l'audition : (Non spécifiée dans l'extrait, mais contextuellement récente compte tenu de la référence à la loi de 2022)

      Personne auditionnée : Monsieur Adrien Taquet, ancien Secrétaire d'État chargé de l'Enfance et des Familles (Janvier 2019 - Mai 2022)

      Objet : Audition dans le cadre d'une commission d'enquête parlementaire sur les défaillances des politiques publiques de protection de l'enfance.

      1. Introduction et Contexte

      Adrien Taquet, dans son propos liminaire, a reconnu l'existence de "défaillances", "inconstances" et "manques évidents" au sein du système de protection de l'enfance en France.

      Cependant, il a souhaité contextualiser son action en rappelant que ce système, malgré ses difficultés, "sauve 350 000 enfants chaque année".

      Il a également souligné le dévouement des professionnels du secteur et la sensibilisation croissante de la société aux violences faites aux enfants.

      Il a présenté la politique qu'il a menée durant son mandat, articulée autour d'un "pacte pour l'enfance" reposant sur trois piliers, et la loi du 7 février 2022 qui en constitue une brique législative majeure.

      2. Les Trois Piliers du Pacte pour l'Enfance

      • Le pacte pour l'enfance visait à apporter une cohérence à l'ensemble des actions menées et s'inscrit dans la continuité des lois de 2007 et 2016.

      Pilier 1 : La Prévention

      • Adrien Taquet a insisté sur l'importance fondamentale de la prévention, affirmant qu'"il n'y a pas de protection de l'enfance sans prévention".

      • Ce pilier s'est traduit par des politiques telles que la "politique autour des 1000 premiers jours de la vie de l'enfant" (0-3 ans), un domaine sous-investi en France mais crucial pour lutter contre les inégalités précoces.

      • Des investissements ont été réalisés dans la psychiatrie périnatale pour détecter précocement les souffrances psychiques.

      • La Stratégie Nationale de Prévention et de Protection de l'Enfance inclut la contractualisation avec les départements et un réinvestissement de l'État (100 millions d'euros sur 3 ans) dans les PMI (Protection Maternelle et Infantile) pour compenser les désinvestissements départementaux des 10 années précédentes.

      Pilier 2 : Lutte directe contre les violences faites aux enfants

      Ce fut un axe central du mandat d'Adrien Taquet.

      • Mise en place d'un Plan de lutte contre les violences aux enfants (novembre 2019), incluant un volet prévention (cours sur la vie affective et sexuelle à l'école) et un volet numérique (contrôle parental par défaut, contrôle d'âge sur les sites pornographiques).

      • Généralisation des UAPED (Unités d'Accueil Pédiatrique Enfants en Danger) pour l'écoute des enfants victimes.

      • Soutien à la recherche sur la prostitution des mineurs, aboutissant au premier plan national de lutte contre la prostitution infantile (novembre 2021), reconnaissant le mineur prostitué comme une victime relevant de la protection de l'enfance (inscrit dans la loi de 2022).

      • Déploiement du dispositif "Stop", une ligne téléphonique pour les auteurs potentiels de crimes sexuels sur enfants, inspiré des modèles anglais et allemand.

      • Accent mis sur la lutte contre les violences sexuelles et l'inceste, avec la création de la CIVISE (Commission Indépendante sur l'Inceste et les Violences Sexuelles) en septembre 2020.

      • Abaissement du seuil de non-consentement à 15 ans avec le Garde des Sceaux.

      • Prise en compte du syndrome du bébé secoué et des violences éducatives ordinaires (interdiction du droit de correction en juillet 2019).

      Pilier 3 : Amélioration du système institutionnel de protection de l'enfance (Aide Sociale à l'Enfance - ASE)

      Ce pilier a cherché à articuler les différentes dispositions et a abouti à la loi du 7 février 2022.

      Ce pilier repose sur quatre blocs :

      • Bloc réglementaire :Demande à la Haute Autorité de Santé (HAS) d'un référentiel unique d'évaluation des situations de danger, car "un enfant n'est pas considéré en danger de la même façon qu'il soit à Lille ou à Marseille".
      • Lancement d'expérimentations pour améliorer la santé des enfants de l'ASE (Santé Protégée, Pégase).
      • Travail pour doter les CRIP (Cellules de Recueil d'Information Préoccupantes) de ressources pour les situations liées au handicap.

      • Bloc conventionnel :Négociations avec les acteurs (associations, syndicats, employeurs) pour améliorer l'attractivité et les conditions de travail des assistantes familiales.

      • Bloc contractuel :Démarche de contractualisation avec les 100 départements, avec des financements de l'État conditionnés à la mise en place d'un ODPE (Observatoire Départemental de la Protection de l'Enfance) et au réinvestissement dans les PMI.

      • Bloc législatif (Loi du 7 février 2022) :Intégration de dispositions négociées (référentiel HAS, assistantes familiales, PMI, prostitution des mineurs).

      Réaffirmation de l'interdiction de la séparation des fratries (quand l'intérêt de l'enfant le permet), facilitée par le financement de la construction de 600 Villages d'enfants.

      Instauration de l'obligation de désigner un parrain pour chaque enfant de la protection de l'enfance, après le financement de 10 000 dispositifs de parrainage.

      Adrien Taquet a souligné que l'effectivité de la loi, bien qu'imparfaite, a été préparée par des mesures antérieures.

      3. Points de Discussion et Défis Soulevés par la Commission

      Les députés ont soulevé plusieurs points critiques et défis majeurs du système actuel :

      • Crise du système : Malgré les lois et stratégies, la situation est jugée "catastrophique", croisant une crise des métiers du secteur médico-social et une augmentation des placements d'enfants après le Covid.
      • Manque de normes et décrets d'application :Le décret de 1974 sur les pouponnières est jugé "obsolète" et non adapté aux besoins fondamentaux des enfants.
      • Il y a un manque criant de normes dans le secteur de la protection de l'enfance concernant l'encadrement et les fiches métiers, contrairement aux autres secteurs de l'enfance. Un décret, prêt en 2022 selon M. Taquet, n'est toujours pas paru.
      • Des décrets d'application de la loi de 2022 n'ont pas été publiés, notamment celui concernant l'interdiction des placements à l'hôtel et celui sur les normes dans les établissements. Adrien Taquet a exprimé ses regrets à ce sujet, sans pouvoir expliquer les blocages après son départ du gouvernement, bien qu'il ait mentionné des "effets d'embouteillage" au niveau des services du Premier ministre et du Conseil d'État en fin de mandat. Les députés ont insisté pour connaître les raisons précises de ces blocages, potentiellement liées à des coûts financiers ou à l'opposition des départements.
      • Crise des métiers et formation : Le secteur manque de 30 000 postes. La formation initiale est jugée trop généraliste et inadaptée aux spécificités de la protection de l'enfance et aux psychotraumas des enfants. Adrien Taquet a reconnu ne pas avoir su "agripper le sujet" de la formation, un de ses regrets, et a suggéré une forme de "renationalisation" de la formation du travail social. L'attractivité des métiers nécessite une amélioration de la qualité de vie au travail et une revalorisation financière et symbolique.
      • Manque de données : Il n'existe pas de données fiables et centralisées au niveau national pour piloter les politiques publiques. Chaque département utilise son propre logiciel, un choix induit par le principe de libre administration des collectivités locales. Adrien Taquet a expliqué avoir renforcé l'ONPE et confié le système de remontée d'informations (Olympe) à l'ADRESSE pour tenter d'améliorer la situation.
      • Placement à l'hôtel : Malgré l'interdiction légale et la période transitoire de 2 ans, des enfants sont toujours placés à l'hôtel. Le décret transitoire prévoyant un accompagnement renforcé n'est jamais sorti.
      • Enfants "incasables" et handicap : Le terme est le reflet de l'incapacité du système à trouver des solutions pour ces enfants, souvent au croisement de l'ASE et du handicap. Adrien Taquet a reconnu des insatisfactions sur ce sujet et le manque de dispositifs innovants.
      • Accompagnement des jeunes majeurs : Malgré les dispositions de la loi de 2022 (droit au retour, entretiens), l'application par les départements est inégale (50% assurent l'accompagnement jusqu'à 21 ans). Le "projet pour l'autonomie" (décret d'août 2022), censé remplacer le "contrat jeune majeur" et s'inspirant de bonnes pratiques (visite en Val de Marne), vise à améliorer la prise en charge pluridisciplinaire, mais le contrat jeune majeur n'a pas été supprimé. La saisine de la justice par les jeunes (rendue possible par la loi) et les décisions du Conseil d'État rappellent aux départements leurs obligations.
      • Articulation administratif/judiciaire et graduation des mesures : Demande des professionnels de mettre en place des normes également dans le milieu ouvert (AED, AEMO). Adrien Taquet a exprimé le regret de ne pas avoir assez soutenu les mesures en milieu ouvert et a mentionné une conférence de consensus sur le sujet.
      • Contrôle des établissements et indépendance des AdEPAP : Questionnement sur le refus de créer un organisme de contrôle indépendant des lieux de placement. Adrien Taquet a souligné la difficulté de contrôler les 25 000 familles d'accueil en plus des foyers et a mis en avant les contrôles exercés par les départements et les ARS, ainsi que l'obligation pour les départements d'avoir des plans de contrôle. Il a jugé "très intéressant" la suggestion d'un fléchage d'une partie du budget départemental vers les AdEPAP pour garantir leur indépendance.
      • Avocat pour chaque enfant : Opposition d'Adrien Taquet à un avocat systématique pour chaque enfant devant le juge, craignant l'introduction d'une "conflictualité" inutile dans les situations de défaillance parentale simple. Il a rappelé que le recours à l'avocat est déjà possible à la demande de l'enfant ou du juge.
      • Utilisation de psychotropes : Des signalements d'utilisation de psychotropes sur des enfants placés sans diagnostic ou ordonnance (camisole chimique) ont été évoqués. Adrien Taquet a lié cela à la pénurie de personnels de santé et à la crise de la pédopsychiatrie, qui, face à l'absence de professionnels, peuvent conduire à des utilisations "dévoyées" de ces substances.
      • Absence de ministre dédié : Un député a souligné l'absence actuelle d'un ministre spécifiquement en charge de l'enfance, contrastant avec les déclarations faisant de ce sujet une priorité.

      4. Regrets et Perspectives (évoqués ou suggérés)

      • Ne pas avoir su "agripper le sujet" de la formation initiale et continue des travailleurs sociaux.
      • Ne pas avoir suffisamment soutenu les mesures en milieu ouvert.
      • Ne pas avoir réussi à supprimer le contrat jeune majeur et à le remplacer totalement par le projet pour l'autonomie.
      • Le manque de "constance" et de "temps" pour que les lois produisent leurs effets.
      • La question des mineurs auteurs de violences sexuelles sur d'autres mineurs, un domaine sous-abordé.
      • La nécessité de généraliser les comités départementaux de la protection de l'enfance (CDPE).
      • L'urgence de s'occuper de la situation dans les Outre-mer ("le carnage là-bas").
      • L'importance d'investir dans la rénovation et la modernisation des foyers de l'ASE (rapport de la Caisse des Dépôts).

      5. Conclusion

      L'audition a mis en lumière les efforts déployés par Adrien Taquet durant son mandat pour réformer et renforcer le système de protection de l'enfance, notamment à travers le pacte pour l'enfance et la loi de 2022.

      Cependant, elle a aussi révélé les limites et les défis persistants, en particulier l'écart entre les intentions législatives et leur application sur le terrain, le manque criant de moyens humains et financiers, et la nécessité urgente de s'attaquer aux problèmes structurels tels que la formation, le manque de données et le contrôle des pratiques.

      Les regrets exprimés par l'ancien Secrétaire d'État soulignent la complexité du sujet et les chantiers qui restent à ouvrir pour garantir une protection effective et bienveillante à tous les enfants.

    1. Note de Synthèse : Rapport sur la prise en charge des urgences psychiatriques

      Introduction :

      • Ce document présente un aperçu des conclusions d'une mission d'information transpartisane sur la prise en charge des urgences psychiatriques, menée conjointement par Mme Nicole Dubré-Chira et Mme Sandrine Rousseau.

      Le rapport, fruit de près d'un an de travail, incluant plus de 360 auditions et visites de terrain à travers la France (y compris en Outre-Mer), répond à des alertes généralisées des acteurs de la psychiatrie et suscite de fortes attentes. Il souligne une crise profonde de la psychiatrie en France, exacerbée par la crise sanitaire, et formule des propositions concrètes pour y remédier.

      Thèmes Principaux et Idées Clés :

      • Détérioration Alarmante de la Santé Mentale, en Particulier chez les Jeunes :
      • Le rapport met en évidence une dégradation "préoccupante" et "rapide" des indicateurs de santé mentale depuis 2020.
      • Cette dégradation est particulièrement marquée chez les jeunes (18-24 ans), avec une augmentation de 77% de la prévalence des épisodes dépressifs entre 2017 et 2021, atteignant 20,8% de cette population.
      • La situation est "particulièrement alarmante" chez les jeunes femmes : "les hospitalisations liées aux gestes auto-infligés c’est-à-dire aux tentatives de suicide et auto-agression chez les femmes âgées de 10 à 19 ans (...) ont progressé de 133 % entre 2020 et aujourd’hui et de 570 % entre 2007 et aujourd’hui."
      • La consommation de psychotropes chez les jeunes (12-25 ans) a augmenté de 19% entre 2019 et 2023.
      • Cette souffrance psychique se traduit par une "hausse de l’activité d’urgence" : le nombre de passages aux urgences pour motifs psychiatriques a augmenté de 21% entre 2019 et 2023, une croissance plus rapide que celle des urgences générales.
      • Crise Profonde des Services de Psychiatrie et Dysfonctionnements :
      • La notion même d'"urgence psychiatrique" reste mal définie et il n'existe pas de services dédiés, la prise en charge relevant traditionnellement du secteur psychiatrique. Un examen somatique préalable est nécessaire.
      • Les services d'urgence ne sont pas toujours adaptés pour gérer les crises psychiques, ce qui conduit à une "orientation par défaut tardive des patients en crise psychique".
      • Les patients peuvent attendre "parfois des jours voire des semaines qu’une place en hospitalisation se libère et ce dans des conditions rudimentaires pour ne pas dire plus". Des témoignages font état de "personnes en contention dans les services d’urgence".
      • La prise en charge est souvent tardive, dans un état de santé dégradé, faisant des urgences un "point d’entrée incontournable dans le système de soins psychiatrique".
      • La prise en charge aux urgences tend à se "substituer à un suivi psychiatrique" pour de nombreux patients, compte tenu de la saturation de l'offre de soins de ville.
      • Déséquilibre entre Secteurs Public et Privé Lucratif :
      • L'activité de psychiatrie d'urgence repose "largement sur le secteur public et le secteur privé à but non lucratif qui accueille 80 % de ces épisodes de crise".
      • Le "virage ambulatoire" a entraîné la suppression de 7000 lits d'hospitalisation complète en psychiatrie en 15 ans, principalement dans les hôpitaux publics et privés à but non lucratif (10400 lits en moins depuis 2008), tandis que 3700 lits étaient créés dans le privé lucratif.
      • Le rythme des fermetures de lits s'est "emballé" après la crise sanitaire en raison du manque de personnel.
      • Le secteur privé lucratif gère près d'un quart des capacités et est la "discipline la plus rentable aujourd’hui du secteur privé lucratif avec un taux de marge qui avoisine les 9 %".
      • Ce contraste est saisissant car les hôpitaux publics assurent la "permanence des soins, la prise en charge des patients les plus lourds ainsi que les hospitalisations sous contrainte".
      • Situation "Sinistrée" de la Pédopsychiatrie :
      • Le secteur de la pédopsychiatrie est "totalement sinistré" et caractérisé par une offre de soins "cruellement insuffisante", notamment dans le contexte de l'explosion de la souffrance psychique des jeunes.
      • Le nombre de pédopsychiatres a chuté de 34% entre 2010 et 2022.
      • 58% des lits d'hospitalisation en pédopsychiatrie ont été fermés entre 1986 et 2013.
      • Les Centres Médico-Psychologiques infantojuveniles (CMP) sont saturés, avec des délais de rendez-vous pouvant atteindre "18 mois ou 24 mois".
      • La prévention est "défaillante", en particulier en milieu scolaire où la médecine scolaire est "elle-même déficiente".
      • La prise en charge des mineurs est souvent inadaptée, dans des conditions potentiellement traumatisantes (hospitalisation dans des unités d'adultes), voire "parfois impossible", entraînant des "pertes de chance évidentes". En 2023, 123 enfants de moins de 15 ans s'étant présentés aux urgences du CHU de Nantes pour idées suicidaires ou tentative de suicide n'ont pu être hospitalisés malgré l'indication d'un pédopsychiatre.
      • Les défaillances actuelles "hypothèquent la santé mentale d’une génération d’enfants et c’est toute la société qui en paiera le prix".
      • Manque de Moyens Humains et d'Attractivité des Métiers :
      • Il existe un "manque alarmant de psychiatres et d’infirmières en santé mentale".
      • La hausse des effectifs (+21% entre 2010 et 2023) est un "trompe-l’œil", principalement liée au recours aux retraités actifs, intermittents et médecins à diplôme étranger.
      • Le manque de moyens humains et matériels est corrélé au "recours à la contention des patients".
      • Les conditions de travail sont dégradées, ce qui nuit au bien-être des soignants et à la qualité des soins.
      • Les soignants, en particulier dans le corps infirmier, sont en "très grande souffrance personnelle" et perdent le "sens de leur travail" faute de moyens, recourant à la contention ou à l'administration de substances chimiques.

      Propositions et Recommandations Clés (Organisées selon 5 axes) :

      • Axe 1 : Renforcer l'offre de soins de premier niveau pour éviter le passage aux urgences.

      Cela passe par une meilleure formation des médecins généralistes (stage obligatoire en psychiatrie, numéro territorial pour conseils), le renforcement des moyens des CMP (pivots du secteur) et l'élargissement de leurs horaires, ainsi que la simplification de l'organisation territoriale des soins psychiatriques pour la rendre plus lisible et accessible.

      • Axe 2 : Structurer un parcours de prise en charge d'urgence clair et accessible.

      Établir un parcours commun, généraliser le volet psychiatrique dans les Services d'Accès aux Soins (SAS), systématiser le suivi post-urgence, modifier les conditions d'accueil aux urgences et créer des lits dédiés en Unités d'Hospitalisation de Courte Durée (UHCD).

      • Axe 3 : Mobiliser davantage le secteur privé.

      Réviser les obligations de permanence des soins pour inclure la psychiatrie, garantir un quota de service public en psychiatrie dans chaque territoire, y compris dans les cliniques.

      • Axe 4 : Soutenir particulièrement la pédopsychiatrie et la santé des jeunes.

      Mettre en place les recommandations des Assises de la Pédiatrie et de la Santé de l'Enfant de 2024, prévoir des mesures ciblées pour les enfants protégés et la psychiatrie périnatale, garantir une offre de soins pédopsychiatrique homogène et adaptée, commander un diagnostic sur l'usage croissant des psychotropes et renforcer les moyens de prévention (médecine scolaire). Une "révolution de la santé mentale dans l'éducation nationale" est appelée de leurs vœux.

      • Axe 5 : Améliorer la formation et l'attractivité des métiers de la psychiatrie.

      Renforcer massivement l'offre de formation (augmentation des effectifs de psychiatres et d'infirmiers, passerelles, IPA), rendre la filière plus attractive (campagne de communication, stages obligatoires pour déstigmatiser), commander un audit sur les conditions de travail et les améliorer (rémunérations). * Nécessité d'une Action Politique Ambitieuse et Urgente : * Les politiques actuelles sont "pas suffisantes face à l’ampleur des besoins". * La situation oblige "collectivement à une prise de conscience et à une action résolue en faveur de la jeunesse et de l’avenir de notre société". * Les attentes du secteur sont "très fortes". La Grande Cause Nationale dédiée à la santé mentale en 2025 doit se traduire par un "portage au plus haut niveau", des "moyens supplémentaires substantiels" et une "participation effective du secteur privé". * Des "choix politiques majeurs sont nécessaires pour définir une stratégie de long terme". * Les rapporteurs souhaitent que leurs travaux débouchent sur un colloque à l'Assemblée nationale et la rédaction d'une proposition de loi transpartisane sur la santé mentale et la psychiatrie.

      Points de Discussion et Interrogations Soulevées lors des Échanges :

      • La distinction entre santé mentale et psychiatrie comme enjeu essentiel.
      • L'impact des violences sexistes et sexuelles, ainsi que de l'éco-anxiété, sur la santé mentale des jeunes.
      • La place croissante du secteur privé et les inquiétudes quant à une "solution" reposant sur sa progression.
      • L'impact de la loi RIST sur le départ des professionnels vers le privé.
      • L'amélioration de l'accès aux CMP (délais d'attente, visibilité, publics vulnérables).
      • La nécessité de reconsidérer l'évolution des moyens financiers et humains dédiés à la psychiatrie.
      • La difficulté à obtenir des données précises sur la psychiatrie aux urgences.
      • La situation des soins psychiques en prison, la surreprésentation des troubles psychiatriques et les dispositifs sous-dimensionnés (UHSA).
      • L'articulation entre les structures d'addictologie et de psychiatrie.
      • La réinterrogation du rattachement de la médecine scolaire au Ministère de l'Éducation Nationale.
      • L'impact de la T2A (Tarification à l'Activité) et la financiarisation sur les pratiques psychiatriques (temps de relation, contention, médicaments, temps avec la famille).
      • Le rôle délétère des réseaux sociaux.
      • Le dispositif "mon soutien psy" et son adéquation.
      • La coordination entre les professionnels de santé de ville (CPTS, Contrats Locaux de Santé Mentale).
      • L'importance de la prévention et du dépistage précoce à tous les niveaux (écoles, collectivités, associations, entreprises, familles).
      • L'intérêt d'une loi de santé pluriannuelle pour assurer un suivi serré des objectifs.
      • La question de l'irresponsabilité pénale et la difficulté de sa mise en œuvre.
      • La situation particulière de la gérontopsychiatrie (taux de suicide élevé, isolement, manque de suivi).
      • L'intérêt d'un délégué interministériel sur la santé mentale ou d'un secrétariat d'État dédié.
      • Le développement des équipes de liaison pour faciliter l'accueil et prévenir la violence aux urgences.
      • La sollicitation croissante des structures d'aide aux jeunes (missions locales, PAJ) par les établissements scolaires.
      • Le manque d'accompagnement dans les universités.
      • La question de l'intégration des psychologues dans la filière.
      • La réflexion sur le "transfert de propriétés" et l'élargissement du secteur public (proposition de nationalisation de cliniques).
      • L'impact de la baisse de la natalité et de la vision de la famille sur la pédopsychiatrie.
      • L'augmentation de la consommation de stupéfiants chez les jeunes.
      • La question des politiques sanitaires mises en œuvre pendant la pandémie et leur contribution à la dégradation de la santé mentale.

      Conclusion :

      Le rapport dresse un tableau sombre mais réaliste de la prise en charge des urgences psychiatriques en France, révélant une crise systémique de la psychiatrie.

      Les conclusions et recommandations formulées appellent à une action urgente et coordonnée de tous les acteurs, avec un accent particulier sur la prévention, le renforcement de l'offre de soins de proximité, la structuration des parcours, la mobilisation du secteur privé, et surtout, un investissement massif dans la pédopsychiatrie et l'amélioration de l'attractivité des métiers.

      La désignation de la santé mentale comme Grande Cause Nationale en 2025 est vue comme une opportunité majeure qui doit être saisie par des moyens substantiels et un portage politique fort pour éviter une "promesse trahie".

      Le travail transpartisan de la mission d'information est salué comme un modèle pour les actions futures, y compris la proposition d'une loi sur le sujet.

    1. synthèse détaillée des sources fournies, organisée sous forme de note de synthèse ou "briefing doc", reprenant les thèmes principaux, les idées les plus importantes et incluant des citations pertinentes.

      Note de Synthèse : L'avis du CESE sur la protection de l'enfance

      Date : [Date de la synthèse, ex: 18 novembre 2023] Sujet : Examen de l'avis du Conseil Économique, Social et Environnemental (CESE) sur la protection de l'enfance, présenté à la commission d'enquête de l'Assemblée Nationale par Mme Josianne Bigot, co-rapporteure de l'avis. Source : Excerpts from "🔴 L’avis du CESE sur la protection de l’enfance est présenté à la commission d’enquête" (Vidéo / Transcription)

      Introduction :

      Cette note de synthèse présente les principaux éléments de l'avis du CESE sur la protection de l'enfance, tel qu'exposé par Mme Josianne Bigot devant la commission d'enquête parlementaire. Cet avis fait suite à une saisine du Sénat visant à évaluer l'application des lois de 2016 et 2022 relatives à la protection de l'enfance, dans le contexte d'une crise systémique alarmante. Mme Bigot, forte de son expérience de juge des enfants et de son engagement associatif, souligne les dysfonctionnements persistants et l'aggravation de la situation, ainsi que le décalage entre les textes législatifs et leur application concrète. L'avis du CESE, adopté à la quasi-unanimité, propose un regard "holistique" sur le système et formule des préconisations fortes pour replacer l'enfant au cœur du dispositif.

      Thèmes Principaux et Idées Clés :

      • Une crise systémique de la protection de l'enfance :
      • Le CESE, la commission d'enquête parlementaire et divers acteurs constatent une crise profonde et systémique du système de protection de l'enfance en France.
      • Malgré un arsenal législatif considéré comme "excellent" (lois de 2007, 2016, 2022), les textes ne sont pas pleinement respectés et appliqués sur le territoire.
      • Citation : "la protection de l’enfance est en danger votre expérience et votre témoignage sont précieux pour notre commission d’enquête... le cise avec son rapport pointe la crise systémique de la protection de l’enfance vous alerterz sur les dysfonctionnements qui persistent et même qui s’aggravent ainsi que sur le décalage entre les lois existantes et et leur application concrète sur le territoire"
      • Cette crise se manifeste par : un déficit d'ambition collective, une désorganisation institutionnelle, et l'épuisement/découragement des acteurs.
      • Citation : "on s’est mis très vite d’accord sur les mots clés ils sont apparus lors des discussions qu’on a pu avoir dans le cadre de la commission ces mots clés c’était le déficit d’une ambition collective la dés désorganisation institutionnelle l’épuisement et le découragement des acteurs ce qui ensemble et bien fait que aujourd’hui la protection de l’enfant est en danger"
      • L'invisibilité statistique et le besoin d'un État stratège :
      • Un constat majeur partagé est l'absence criante de statistiques fiables et complètes en matière de protection de l'enfance. Cette "invisibilité statistique" empêche de connaître précisément les besoins, les capacités d'accueil, et les défaillances du système.
      • L'État doit retrouver un rôle de "stratège" et de garant de l'égalité de traitement sur tout le territoire national, ce qui n'est plus le cas aujourd'hui en raison de fortes disparités départementales.
      • Citation : "on est dans une invisibilité totale dans une absence de statistique totale on ne connaît pas les besoins on ne connaît pas les défaillances et il faut absolument que on remédie à ça"
      • Citation : "l’État est le garant de l’égalité de traitement des citoyens et aujourd’hui ça n’est absolument plus le cas sur le territoire puisque ce qui est frappant sur le territoire c’est que il y a une il y a une inégalité très cruelle pour les enfants entre les les territoires"

      Préconisations majeures du CESE (organisées selon les quatre piliers de l'avis) :

      Pilier 1 : Mettre fin à la désorganisation institutionnelle.

      • Donner les moyens au GIP France enfance protégée : Le GIP doit pouvoir collecter des données précises et actualisées des départements (besoins, capacités, mesures non exécutées).
      • Adopter une stratégie interministérielle : Un pilotage renforcé, rattaché idéalement au Premier Ministre, est jugé indispensable pour coordonner l'action de tous les ministères concernés et assurer une vision globale.
      • Renforcer la contractualisation entre l'État et les départements : Conditionner les financements supplémentaires au respect des obligations départementales et à la mise en œuvre de la stratégie nationale.
      • Évaluer rapidement les Conseils Départementaux de Protection de l'Enfance (CDPE) : S'ils se montrent efficaces pour contraindre la coordination des acteurs (administratifs, judiciaires, etc.), il faudrait envisager leur généralisation et leur caractère obligatoire.
      • Ne pas remettre en cause la décentralisation : Le CESE ne préconise pas de revenir sur la décentralisation mais de renforcer le rôle de garant de l'État.

      Pilier 2 : Mieux protéger les enfants.

      • Rendre effectif le Projet Pour l'Enfant (PPE) : Obliger sa mise en œuvre dans tous les départements pour assurer un suivi personnalisé et impliquer l'enfant et sa famille.
      • Développer la prévention primaire et le soutien à la parentalité : Investir davantage en amont pour éviter d'en arriver à des mesures de protection.
      • Assurer la formation de tous les intervenants auprès des enfants : Permettre le repérage des situations de mal-être ou de maltraitance, conformément à la convention de Lanzarote (2010), qui n'est pas appliquée.
      • Diversifier les prises en charge : Privilégier les petites unités d'accueil et les familles d'accueil (dont le nombre est en baisse). Développer un milieu ouvert plus structuré avec un nombre réduit de situations par travailleur social.
      • Focus sur les enfants à double vulnérabilité (handicap) : Systématiser les conventions entre l'ASE (Aide Sociale à l'Enfance), les MDPH (Maisons Départementales des Personnes Handicapées) et les ARS (Agences Régionales de Santé) et développer des lieux de prise en charge pluriprofessionnelle.

      Pilier 3 : Garantir le respect des droits des enfants.

      • Avocat systématique pour l'enfant : Préconiser la présence systématique d'un avocat auprès de l'enfant, notamment dans les procédures judiciaires (proposition qui n'avait pas abouti en 2007 pour raisons financières).
      • Statut pour les administrateurs ad hoc : Leur donner un statut, une formation obligatoire, un contrôle et une rémunération digne pour garantir la fiabilité de leur mission de représentation des intérêts de l'enfant (actuellement rémunérés très faiblement par le Ministère de la Justice).
      • Effectivité de l'accompagnement des jeunes majeurs : Confier à l'IGAS (Inspection Générale des Affaires Sociales) une mission de contrôle systématique pour assurer que les dispositifs prévus par la loi Taquet soient réellement opérationnels.
      • Créer une autorité indépendante de contrôle : Instaurer une autorité indépendante qui aurait le pouvoir de se rendre à tout moment dans les structures d'accueil et dont les enfants auraient connaissance.

      Pilier 4 : Soutenir les professionnels.

      • Améliorer l'attractivité des métiers : Revaloriser les professionnels de la protection de l'enfance (assistants familiaux, TISF, travailleurs sociaux) et reconnaître leur travail (primes, salaires).
      • Garantir les conditions de travail : Adopter et faire appliquer un décret sur les normes d'encadrement dans les établissements (actuellement inexistant, contrairement à la petite enfance).
      • Renforcer la formation des travailleurs sociaux : Adapter les formations aux spécificités du terrain (violences intrafamiliales, grande pauvreté, relations familiales complexes).
      • Accompagnement à long terme des parcours professionnels : Réfléchir à des évolutions ou passerelles pour les travailleurs sociaux compte tenu de la difficulté du métier sur la durée.
      • Lutter contre la précarité de l'emploi : Éviter le recours aux travailleurs sociaux intérimaires pour garantir la stabilité des figures de référence pour les enfants.
      • Replacer l'enfant au cœur du dispositif et l'intérêt supérieur de l'enfant :
      • L'avis et les lois récentes ont cherché à mettre l'enfant au centre du système.
      • L'intérêt supérieur de l'enfant est le fil conducteur de l'avis, défini comme une "dialectique entre les besoins et les droits".
      • Le CESE souhaite que la protection de l'enfance ne soit pas seulement l'affaire des politiques, mais de la société tout entière.
      • Citation : "nous souhaitons que ce soit pas seulement les politiques qui s’engagent sur la protection de l’enfance par que ça ce soit la société tout entière que chacun chacune se sent concerné par la protection de l’enfance et par un enfant en danger ou potentiellement en danger"
      • Proposition d'un Code de l'Enfance :
      • Pour assoir la volonté de reconnaître les droits de l'enfant, le CESE propose la création d'un Code de l'Enfance qui regrouperait tous les textes éparpillés dans différents codes (civil, pénal, famille, éducation). Cela symboliserait le statut particulier de l'enfant.
      • Échanges avec les parlementaires :
      • Les questions des députés ont notamment porté sur :
      • La diffusion de l'avis (présentation à la Ministre, au Sénat, à l'ADF). L'avis a été présenté à la Ministre (qui s'est montrée intéressée) et la directrice de la PJJ a lu le rapport, mais les présentations formelles sont encore en cours.
      • L'absence historique de normes d'encadrement et le rôle des associations gestionnaires. Mme Bigot explique cette situation en partie par l'apport historique du secteur caritatif/religieux (personnel gratuit) et une certaine réserve initiale des associations face aux exigences de formation et de recrutement. Elle note cependant une évolution positive de certaines associations qui soutiennent aujourd'hui l'adoption de normes minimales.
      • L'intérêt potentiel des comités de pilotage mis en place par les procureurs sur les violences intrafamiliales comme modèle pour la coordination en protection de l'enfance.
      • La difficulté de la "graduation" des interventions (prévention, aides administratives, mesures judiciaires, placements) et la saturation des structures. Le manque de moyens et de cohérence entre les systèmes administratif et judiciaire sont pointés comme obstacles à cette graduation souhaitée par les professionnels.
      • Les avantages et inconvénients de la décentralisation avec du recul. Mme Bigot reconnaît le "bazar" initial lors du transfert de compétences mais estime qu'il ne faut pas y toucher à nouveau étant donné l'état actuel du système. Elle insiste sur l'inadmissibilité des inégalités de traitement selon les départements, qu'il faut combattre par d'autres leviers.
      • L'emploi des termes "enfants confiés" versus "enfants placés". Mme Bigot préfère "confiés" comme un terme qui montre une évolution du vocabulaire, tout en reconnaissant que la réalité des "placements" (instabilité, multiples lieux d'accueil) justifie encore l'usage du terme par les anciens enfants placés eux-mêmes pour dénoncer la situation.
      • L'origine de l'absence d'ambition collective. Mme Bigot estime qu'il y a une progression de l'intérêt des élus. Elle suggère que l'émotion ponctuelle ne suffit pas et qu'il faut un engagement personnel de chacun. Elle rejoint l'idée qu'il faut replacer la protection de l'enfance dans une vision plus globale de l'enfance (soutenant l'idée d'un Code de l'Enfance ou d'un ministre de l'enfance, à condition qu'il ait la compétence sur la protection).
      • Le besoin fondamental de stabilité et de figures adultes de référence stables pour les enfants. Mme Bigot est tout à fait d'accord et dénonce le recours aux travailleurs sociaux intérimaires qui nuit à cette stabilité essentielle.

      Conclusion :

      L'avis du CESE et la présentation de Mme Bigot dressent un tableau sombre mais lucide de la situation de la protection de l'enfance en France, marquée par une crise systémique et un décalage flagrant entre la loi et sa mise en œuvre.

      Les préconisations formulées sont ambitieuses et couvrent l'ensemble du système, insistant particulièrement sur le rôle de l'État en tant que garant, la nécessité d'une meilleure coordination des acteurs (notamment via les CDPE), la protection effective des droits de l'enfant (représentation légale, autorité indépendante), le soutien aux professionnels en première ligne, et une vision plus globale de l'enfance dans la société.

      La mise en œuvre de ces recommandations nécessite un engagement fort de tous les acteurs et de la société dans son ensemble pour passer de l'émotion ponctuelle à une réelle ambition collective et un soutien concret pour les enfants en danger.

    1. compte-rendu détaillé de l'audition de Claire Hédon, Défenseure des droits, basé sur les extraits fournis.

      Document d'information : Audition de Claire Hédon, Défenseure des droits

      Date : [Date de l'audition - non précisée dans l'extrait, mais identifiée comme ayant eu lieu suite à la dissolution de la législature précédente et avant fin 2023/début 2024] Objet : Présentation du rapport annuel d'activité de la Défenseure des droits et échanges sur l'état de la protection des droits en France. Intervenante principale : Madame Claire Hédon, Défenseure des droits.

      Accompagnants : Madame Mireille Lec (secrétaire générale), Madame Cécile Barrois de Sarigny (adjointe chargée de l'accompagnement des lanceurs d'alerte), Monsieur Daniel Agazenski (délégué général à la médiation), et son chef de cabinet.

      Résumé Exécutif :

      L'audition de Madame Claire Hédon devant la commission des lois visait à présenter le rapport annuel d'activité de l'institution du Défenseur des droits.

      Ce rapport ne se limite pas à un compte-rendu d'activité mais constitue un état des lieux de la défense et de la protection des droits en France, mettant en lumière l'écart entre le droit proclamé et son effectivité.

      La Défenseure des droits, dont l'institution est inscrite dans la Constitution, s'appuie sur cinq champs de compétences principaux :

      • la protection des usagers des services publics,
      • la lutte contre les discriminations, la protection des droits des enfants,
      • le contrôle de la déontologie des forces de sécurité,
      • et la protection des lanceurs d'alerte.

      Les principaux thèmes abordés sont : le recul des services publics et ses conséquences sur l'accès aux droits, la fragilisation de l'État de droit, et la nécessité croissante des missions du Défenseur des droits pour pallier ces difficultés.

      Les statistiques pour 2023 font état de 138 000 réclamations reçues, un chiffre en augmentation constante, principalement liées aux difficultés d'accès aux services publics (80%).

      La Défenseure souligne la déshumanisation et la dématérialisation excessive de l'administration comme obstacles majeurs, touchant particulièrement les plus vulnérables et les habitants des Outre-mer et des quartiers prioritaires.

      Un autre point d'inquiétude majeur est la fragilisation de l'État de droit, perçue à travers des atteintes concrètes aux droits fondamentaux, l'inexécution de décisions de justice, et les attaques visant ceux qui défendent les droits (associations, universitaires).

      Cette érosion s'accompagne d'un discours banalisant les atteintes aux droits et présentant le droit comme un obstacle.

      Face à ces constats, la Défenseure des droits réaffirme l'importance de son rôle de recours, de médiation et de force de proposition pour améliorer le droit et rendre effectifs les droits de chacun.

      Elle met en avant le travail de ses délégués territoriaux, l'importance de la visibilité de l'institution, et la nécessité de renforcer les moyens pour lutter contre les discriminations et garantir un accès effectif aux services publics.

      Points Clés et Thèmes Majeurs :

      • Le Recul des Services Publics et ses Effets sur l'Accès aux Droits:
      • Constat principal : Recul des services publics, fossé entre usagers et administration, déshumanisation.
      • Chiffres Clés : 80% des réclamations concernent les problèmes avec les services publics. 138 000 réclamations reçues en 2023 (augmentation annuelle d'environ 10%).
      • Dématérialisation Excessive : Considérée comme "délétère" et source d'exclusion pour près d'un tiers de la population éloignée du numérique.
      • "Je crois surtout que c'est le service public qui s'est éloigné d'elles notamment des plus vulnérables des plus pauvres des plus en difficulté en faisant peser sur eux une charge administrative une charge matérielle et mentale très lourde."
      • Étude sur les plateformes téléphoniques (CAF, Assurance Maladie, Pôle Emploi, Retraite) : Sur 1500 appels, 40% n'ont pas abouti, et 60% des appels aboutis ont donné lieu à des réponses erronées ou incomplètes.
      • Conséquences Concrètes : Difficultés d'accès aux droits, charge administrative lourde pour les usagers, recul dans les territoires (Outre-mer, rural, quartiers prioritaires).
      • Exemples : Attente de liquidation de retraite aux Antilles (plus d'un an, voire 2 ans), accès aléatoire à l'eau en Guadeloupe, heures de cours non assurées aux Antilles (jusqu'à 20%, faisant perdre une année scolaire en primaire), milliers d'enfants déscolarisés à Mayotte, difficultés d'accès aux subventions MaPrimeRenov, lycéens sans affectation à la rentrée (27 000 en 2023), désertification médicale, renoncement aux soins, enfants handicapés sans accompagnement scolaire suffisant.
      • Recommandation : Les services publics doivent s'adapter à l'usager, non l'inverse. Maintenir plusieurs modalités d'accès, notamment physiques.
      • Les Droits des Étrangers : Un Révélateur des Dysfonctionnements :
      • Constat : Le droit des étrangers est le premier motif de saisine pour la 2e année consécutive (plus d'un quart des réclamations).
      • Difficultés Principales : Impossibilité de prendre rendez-vous en préfecture, délais d'instruction excessifs pour les renouvellements de titres (même simples).
      • Conséquences : Des milliers d'étrangers, parfois établis depuis longtemps, se retrouvent en situation irrégulière involontairement, entraînant des ruptures de droits (perte d'emploi, de logement).
      • "Cela maintient les étrangers régulièrement établis parfois depuis très longtemps dans une forme d'insécurité administrative permanente et les étrangers ne constituent pas un groupe isolé du reste de la population française."
      • La Défenseure des droits ne peut se substituer aux services publics et s'inquiète d'une "embolie" de l'institution face à l'ampleur du problème.
      • La loi immigration n'apporte aucune réponse satisfaisante, préférant fragiliser cette population.
      • Actions : Lancement d'une enquête auprès des préfectures pour identifier les facteurs de dysfonctionnement et les bonnes pratiques, et d'une instruction sur l'administration numérique des étrangers en France (ANEF).
      • La Fragilisation de l'État de Droit :
      • Constat : L'année 2023 a été marquée par une "fragilisation" et une "banalisation" des atteintes aux droits.
      • Formes de Fragilisation :
      • Atteintes concrètes aux droits fondamentaux : Conditionnalité accrue du RSA, facilitation des expulsions de logement (loi Kasbarian critiquée pour son atteinte potentielle au droit au respect de la vie privée et à ne pas subir de traitements inhumains/dégradants, bien que la Défenseure souligne défendre les droits de tous, y compris les propriétaires).
      • "J'ai largement détaillé ces risques dans des avis au Parlement publiés en 2023."
      • Inexécution croissante des décisions de justice (nationales et CEDH) : Mesures de juges des enfants non exécutées, rattachements arbitraires d'enfants à Mayotte pour les éloigner du territoire (malgré les décisions de justice et de la CEDH). "Oui nous avons vu des situations de français expulsés au Comor dans lequel il n'avaient pas de lien fam familux c'est aussi ça la réalité de ce que nous voyons dans nos réclamations".
      • Attaques contre ceux qui défendent les droits et libertés : Menaces contre les associations (liberté d'association menacée, suspension de subventions), atteintes à la liberté académique.
      • Pratiques d'intimidation des forces de l'ordre envers les associations (expulsions de campements, défense de l'environnement).
      • Discours Banalisant les Atteintes : Les droits sont présentés comme des "obstacles" à l'efficacité ou à la volonté générale. Les juridictions sont critiquées.
      • "Cette fragilisation n'est pas nouvelle s'inscrit dans une tendance de fond mais il semble que nous fisions face à une accélération qui pose la question de la santé de de notre démocratie."
      • La Nécessité des Missions du Défenseur des Droits :
      • Rôle : Régler les situations individuelles, faire émerger des questions d'intérêt général dans le débat public, combler le fossé entre usagers et services publics, contribuer à l'amélioration du droit.
      • Atouts : Indépendance, connaissance fine du terrain (600 délégués territoriaux dans 1000 lieux de permanence), expertise juridique solide.
      • Chiffres d'Activité : 138 000 réclamations traitées. 80% des cas font l'objet de médiation, avec un taux de succès de 75%.
      • Exemples de succès : Arrêt de bus scolaire pour trois enfants en zone rurale, personnes atteintes de maladies chroniques devenant militaires, jeunes footballeuses non discriminées dans leurs contrats.
      • Accessibilité : Joignable gratuitement par courrier, mail, formulaire en ligne, téléphone (plateforme générale, 3928 pour les discriminations, 3141 pour les personnes détenues), 600 délégués territoriaux. Ouverture de permanences dans de nouveaux lieux (associations, centres sociaux, missions locales, tiers-lieux).
      • Lutte contre les Discriminations : Travail pour rendre visible les discriminations (personnes d'origine asiatique, personnes en situation de pauvreté, accès au logement social). Lutte contre les contrôles d'identité discriminatoires (enquête de 2017 révélant 20 fois plus de risque pour les jeunes hommes perçus comme noirs ou arabes). Relance de cette enquête.
      • Décision du Conseil d'État (suite aux observations du Défenseur) reconnaissant que les contrôles d'identité discriminatoires ne sont pas des actes isolés et relèvent d'une politique publique.
      • Demande d'évaluation à la Cour des comptes sur les contrôles d'identité : 47 millions de contrôles en 2021 (dont 32 millions hors contrôles routiers), avec peu de résultats judiciaires dans la majorité des cas.
      • Recommandations sur les contrôles d'identité : Traçabilité (globale et individuelle, étude des modèles étrangers), meilleur encadrement des forces de l'ordre, meilleur contrôle du parquet.
      • Protection des Lanceurs d'Alerte : Accompagnement et orientation vers les autorités compétentes, publication d'un guide, publication d'un rapport bisannuel sur les dispositifs de protection.
      • Réponses aux Questions Spécifiques des Députés :
      • Loi Kasbarian (squats) : Inquiétude quant aux atteintes aux droits des occupants, mais la Défenseure rappelle défendre les droits de tous, y compris les propriétaires. Souligne le besoin de données sur l'impact de la loi et les profils des personnes concernées.
      • Robustesse de l'État de Droit : L'État de droit repose sur la séparation des pouvoirs, le respect de la hiérarchie des normes, l'égalité des citoyens, le respect des droits fondamentaux, la liberté associative, d'expression, de manifestation. Sa fragilisation vient des atteintes concrètes et d'un discours qui les légitime.
      • Contrôles d'Identité Discriminatoires : Voir point 4.
      • Accès à la Protection Sociale pour les Français de l'Étranger : Augmentation des réclamations, étude plus large en cours.
      • Discriminations Systémiques (origine) : L'ampleur n'est pas visible dans les saisines et contentieux par peur des représailles et manque de confiance dans l'utilité des démarches. L'application du droit est nécessaire, facilitation des recours (actions de groupe, testing).
      • Services Postaux en Zone Rurale : Partage du constat, réaffirme l'importance de la présence physique, note le retour possible sur la coupe budgétaire.
      • Violences dans les Manifestations : Compétence limitée à la déontologie des forces de sécurité. Souligne la nécessité de l'usage nécessaire et proportionné de la force et des formations à la désescalade.
      • Instrumentalisation du Conseil Constitutionnel : Vote d'articles (cavaliers législatifs) dont l'inconstitutionnalité est connue. Le rôle est au législateur de ne pas les voter.
      • Libertés Associatives : Inquiétude face aux atteintes observées, saisines en augmentation, potentielle enquête approfondie. Compétence pour défendre les associations au titre des libertés d'expression et d'association, même si le contenu de leur action (environnement, etc.) n'est pas un champ de compétence direct.
      • Visibilité de l'Institution : Partage du constat, demande de moyens pour une grande campagne de communication, notamment sur les discriminations.
      • France Services : Amélioration reconnue, mais insuffisante faute d'accès des agents aux dossiers du backoffice. Recommande des permanences des services concernés.
      • Vidéosurveillance Algorithmique : Question d'équilibre entre sécurité et libertés. Saisines en cours, décision à venir. L'auto-saisine a permis des actions concrètes (logements étudiants, continuité des droits sociaux pendant les JO).
      • Mayotte : Reconnaît une situation de crise multifactorielle "effrayante pour tout le monde". Souligne les difficultés d'accès à l'eau, à l'école, à la justice, au logement, et l'éloignement. Refuse de mettre en concurrence les populations (étrangers vs Mahorais). Affirme que la France "manque d'humanité" non seulement avec les étrangers mais avec un certain nombre de personnes ayant du mal à faire valoir leurs droits.
      • Accès à l'Eau (hors Outre-mer) : Difficultés observées en France continentale, notamment en zones rurales et de montagne. Question abordée dans le rapport enfants sur le droit à un environnement sain.
      • Critique de la Loi par la Défenseure : Affirme que ses avis au Parlement sont basés sur les difficultés observées dans les réclamations et l'impact potentiel de certains articles. Défend l'indépendance de son jugement ("la défense du droit n'est pas une question de droite ou de gauche").
      • Contributions au Conseil Constitutionnel : Confirmées, effectuées sept fois depuis la création de l'institution, considérées comme un droit de contribution citoyenne.
      • Compétence sur les Lanceurs d'Alerte : Clarification : Compétence sur l'orientation, la certification et l'accompagnement en cas de représailles pour tous les lanceurs d'alerte. Compétence sur le contenu de l'alerte dans les quatre domaines traditionnels de l'institution.
      • Accès au Logement Social : Les plus pauvres ont le plus de mal à y accéder, quelle que soit l'origine. Situation dramatique due au manque de construction de logements sociaux, surtout très sociaux. Urgence à construire.
      • Contrôles d'Identité (détails) : Nécessité de la présence sur le terrain, mais pas de contrôles systématiques. Expérimentation pour comparer les méthodes de traçabilité (modèles anglais/allemand, caméras piétons). Contrôle du parquet nécessaire.
      • Protection de l'Enfance : Enquête en cours (contradiction avec 14 départements). Inquiétude face aux décisions de justice non appliquées, manque de travailleurs sociaux. Refus de mettre en opposition MNA et enfants protégés, ne résout pas le problème.
      • Difficultés des Étudiants (Parcoursup, Mon Master) : Préoccupation face au manque de transparence des algorithmes et aux difficultés de recours. Saisines peu nombreuses, difficulté d'atteindre ce public. Ouverture de permanences en université. Rapport à venir sur l'IA et les services publics.
      • Amende Forfaitaire Délictuelle (AFD) : Inquiétude sur le non-accès au juge, l'individualisation de la peine, l'inscription au casier judiciaire sans jugement, les difficultés de contestation (montant, procédure). Souvent observée pour des situations où les aires d'accueil ne sont pas suffisantes ou de qualité. Défend les droits de tous sans opposer les populations. Met en avant l'impact sur les victimes et la rupture d'égalité devant la justice.

      Citations Clés :

      • "Ce que je viens vous dire c'est pas simplement je dirais un simple rapport d'activité sur ce que nous faisons mais bien un état de la défense et de la protection des droits et nous sommes pour cela un très bon observatoire des difficultés que les personnes peuvent rencontrer dans l'accès au droits et je dirais de l'écart entre le droit annoncé et son effectivité."
      • "La dématérialisation ne peut pas être considérée comme un progrès si elle exclut et si elle déshumanise le service public."
      • "C'est au service public de s'adapter à l'usager et non pas l'inverse."
      • "Remettre en cause aussi profondément leurs droits menace la cohésion sociale dans son ensemble et l'intégration dans notre République." (concernant les étrangers)
      • "Cette érosion elle prend plusieurs formes d'abord il faut le redire cela passe par des atteintes très concrètes aux droits fondamentaux des personnes... Cela passe aussi par l'inexécution de plus en plus importante de décisions de justice..."
      • "Dès menaces se traduisent parfois par la suspension de subventions accordé par l'État et mis bout à bout ces éléments dessinent la fragilisation d'un édifice celui de l'État de droit par la relativisation des droits et du juge par la limitation des libertés qui font la démocratie."
      • "Je crois pas que vous connaissiez mes opinions politique et la question de la défense du droit n'est pas une question de droite ou de gauche et j'espère qu'elle est au-delà justement des questions d'opinion d'opinion politique."
      • "Mettre en concurrence les populations n'a jamais permis de de mieux défendre les droits des maorés c'est une erreur de mettre en concurrence les populations."
      • "Oui la France manque d'humanité moi je le dirais exactement comme ça oui oui et la France manque d'humanité pas simplement d'ailleurs avec les étrangers elle manque d'humanité avec un certain nombre de personnes qui ont du mal à faire valoir leurs droits."

      Recommandations Émergentes :

      • Maintenir et renforcer les modalités d'accès physiques aux services publics.
      • Garantir la possibilité de déposer des dossiers en format papier.
      • Adapter les services publics aux besoins des usagers, en particulier les plus vulnérables.
      • Réaliser des études d'impact des lois sur l'accès aux droits et les droits fondamentaux.
      • Améliorer la traçabilité et l'encadrement des contrôles d'identité.
      • Faciliter le recours en justice et les actions de groupe en matière de discrimination.
      • Investir dans la protection de l'enfance pour garantir l'exécution des décisions de justice et la qualité de l'accompagnement.
      • Construire davantage de logements sociaux, en particulier très sociaux.
      • Garantir la transparence et l'objectivité des algorithmes utilisés dans l'administration.
      • Abroger ou modifier les dispositions législatives portant atteinte de manière disproportionnée aux droits fondamentaux.
      • Mener une campagne de communication pour mieux faire connaître l'institution et les droits des citoyens.

      Perspectives Futures / Suivi :

      • Rapports à venir sur l'accès à l'eau pour les enfants et le droit à un environnement sain (novembre).
      • Décisions à venir sur les atteintes à la déontologie des forces de sécurité (en cours d'enquête).
      • Rapport et décisions à venir sur la protection de l'enfance (fin janvier).
      • Décisions à venir sur Mayotte (début d'année prochaine).
      • Rapport à venir sur l'intelligence artificielle et les services publics (début novembre).
      • Décision à venir sur les saisines liées aux Jeux Olympiques (en cours d'enquête).
      • Poursuite de l'enquête sur les contrôles d'identité discriminatoires.
      • Ce document résume les principaux points abordés lors de l'audition, en mettant l'accent sur les préoccupations exprimées par la Défenseure des droits et les actions menées par son institution.
    1. NOTE DE SYNTHÈSE POUR L'AUDITION DES RESPONSABLES DU CONSEIL D’ORIENTATION DES POLITIQUES DE JEUNESSE (COG)

      Date : [Date de l'audition - non spécifiée dans la source, utiliser la date d'aujourd'hui si nécessaire] Objet : Présentation des travaux, priorités et recommandations du COG en matière de politiques de jeunesse, d'insertion et d'éducation populaire.

      Introduction

      Cette note de synthèse présente les points clés soulevés lors de l'audition des responsables du Conseil d’orientation des politiques de jeunesse (COG).

      Le COG, commission administrative indépendante consultative placée auprès du Premier ministre, a pour mission de coordonner et évaluer les politiques publiques relatives à la jeunesse, à l'insertion des jeunes et à l'éducation populaire.

      Créé en 2016 et renouvelé en 2021, il vise à être un lieu de dialogue essentiel face à un sentiment de non-écoute exprimé par une partie significative de la jeunesse (notamment manifesté par un taux d'abstention élevé chez les 18-24 ans).

      1. Mission et Fonctionnement du COG

      • Le COG est composé de 108 membres bénévoles, répartis en huit collèges représentatifs de la diversité des acteurs des politiques de jeunesse (État, collectivités, jeunes et leurs organisations, associations, acteurs de l'insertion, partenaires sociaux).
      • Ses travaux s'organisent en deux commissions : Insertion des Jeunes et Éducation Populaire.
      • Le COG travaille sur des approches thématiques ou par dispositif (Contrat d'engagement jeune, accès au logement, réforme de l'assurance chômage, Service Civique, SNU, etc.).
      • Les travaux du COG visent à formuler des recommandations pour améliorer les politiques en faveur des jeunes, même si ses recommandations ne sont pas toujours suivies par les responsables politiques, comme l'a souligné l'intervenant initial.

      2. Enjeu Prioritaire du COG : Pérennisation et Moyens

      • L'enjeu majeur pour le COG est son inscription dans la durée, nécessitant :
      • Une inscription dans la loi.
      • La pérennisation de ses moyens, actuellement limités (deux ETP au Secrétariat Général, budget de fonctionnement rattaché aux crédits "Jeunesse et Vie Associative").

      3. Regard Général sur les Politiques de Jeunesse Récentes

      • Constat d'une "politique de dispositifs" : Les politiques en faveur des jeunes sont souvent abordées via une succession de dispositifs variés (SNU, CEJ, obligation de formation, vacances apprenantes, Un jeune une solution, etc.), qui peuvent se cumuler.
      • Manque de coordination interministérielle : C'est un point "prégnant" et regrettable. Le Comité Interministériel à la Jeunesse (CIJ) n'a pas été réuni depuis 2015, malgré les appels récurrents du COG et d'autres organisations. La coordination interministérielle est jugée "un prérequis essentiel pour avoir des politiques de jeunesse davantage intégrées".
      • Déficit de concertation avec les collectivités territoriales et acteurs de terrain : Malgré la loi Égalité Citoyenneté de 2017 prévoyant un "chef de file" régional pour organiser l'action commune des collectivités en matière de jeunesse, sa mise en place est "assez inégale" et ne remporte pas un "franc succès". Le COG note un déficit de concertation entre l'État et les collectivités, mais aussi entre les différents niveaux de collectivités et les acteurs associatifs/organisations de jeunesse.
      • Les jeunes "pas systématiquement, voire quasiment très rarement associés" aux politiques qui les concernent : Ceci contredit l'esprit de l'article 54 de la loi Égalité Citoyenneté qui prévoyait un "processus de dialogue structuré entre les jeunes, les représentants de la société civile et les pouvoirs publics" pour l'élaboration, la mise en œuvre, le suivi et l'évaluation des politiques de jeunesse. Le "dialogue structuré" est une méthode essentielle visant à améliorer les politiques publiques en incitant le dialogue entre les jeunes citoyens, la société civile et les pouvoirs publics.
      • Travaux post-COVID : En réaction à la crise sanitaire, le COG a produit un rapport intitulé "Les grands défis des années à venir pour les jeunesses", formulant plus de 181 recommandations dans huit domaines prioritaires (culture, loisir, emploi, engagement, participation, éducation, logement, mobilité géographique, santé). Ce rapport témoigne d'un effort global d'analyse et de propositions.

      4. Focus sur l'Éducation Populaire

      • Fragilité économique du secteur : Le COG met en exergue la "fragilité économique du secteur de l'éducation populaire", à qui l'on demande un "investissement très fort" tout en créant des "logiques concurrentielles" (mentionnées à propos du Service Civique ou du SNU).
      • Rapports clés :"Comment mieux coopérer l’éducation populaire et l’école pour former des jeunes citoyens actifs" (2020) : Ce rapport souligne que la formation citoyenne ne peut reposer uniquement sur l'éducation formelle ou l'éducation populaire, mais nécessite une "marge de progression pour construire une formation qui associe ces deux champs". Il préconise de "penser la formation citoyenne de manière plus globale en valorisant les apports de l'éducation populaire".
      • "Relancer et généraliser les projets éducatifs territoriaux" : Ce rapport appuie l'idée que les Projets Éducatifs Territoriaux (PEDT) sont un outil pertinent pour une "politique éducative transversale" impliquant tous les acteurs (écoles, associations, élus, parents).
      • Facteurs de fragilisation :Généralisation des marchés publics : Entraîne une "mise en concurrence entre des associations elles-mêmes", une potentielle "perte de qualité des actions" due à la primauté du critère financier, et une "perte de sens"/fragilisation du secteur associatif local à long terme.
      • Recours croissant aux appels à projet : Bien que soutenant l'innovation, ils sont "rarement accompagnés d'un travail évaluatif scientifique et robuste" et interviennent souvent avec une "baisse du soutien au fonctionnement des associations par des subventions pluriannuelles", conduisant à des "moyens RH en diminution" alors que les attentes envers le secteur associatif augmentent.
      • Leviers pour relancer l'éducation populaire et sa mission émancipatrice :Reconnaître et valoriser la "juste place" et la "plus-value" de l'éducation populaire.
      • Développer la "continuité éducative" entre le champ scolaire et l'éducation populaire, avec un cadre juridique sécurisant pour les acteurs associatifs et une valorisation de l'engagement des jeunes.
      • Permettre l'expression de "différentes pédagogies" et mobiliser les acteurs pour créer une "communauté éducative".
      • Développer les "pédagogies actives" et les "méthodes participatives".
      • Construire l'éducation à la citoyenneté en se basant sur les "réalités et les ressources du territoire".
      • Développer la "capacité d'agir et de s'engager des jeunes", en valorisant leurs compétences.
      • Question de la définition de l'éducation populaire : L'absence d'une définition claire est un frein ; une reconnaissance législative pourrait passer par une définition.
      • Crise des vocations d'animateurs :Le rapport "Quels animateurs pour nos jeunesses" (2024) identifie deux types d'animateurs (occasionnels/BAFA et professionnels/diplôme professionnel) et note l'utilisation abusive du BAFA comme seul diplôme pour des postes pérennes.
      • Préconisations :Bien différencier les rôles.
      • Lutter contre l'utilisation abusive du BAFA.
      • Mieux valoriser la "fonction éducative des animateurs" notamment par rapport à l'enseignement scolaire.
      • Revoir la rémunération des animateurs professionnels.
      • Lutter contre le travail partiel contraint.
      • Réfléchir au bien-fondé du Contrat d'Engagement Éducatif (CEE), "réglementation dérogatoire au droit du travail".

      5. Focus sur l'Insertion des Jeunes et l'Accès à l'Autonomie

      • Travaux sur la Garantie Jeune et le Contrat d'Engagement Jeune (CEJ) : Le COG note les avancées mais insiste sur les besoins des "jeunes les plus éloignés", un "public particulièrement fragile" à "sécuriser".
      • Recommandations pour le CEJ :Supprimer le délai de carence de 6 mois entre deux contrats.
      • Supprimer la limitation de durée (actuellement 12 à 18 mois) pour que l'accompagnement devienne un "véritable droit" permettant aux jeunes vulnérables d'accéder à l'autonomie.
      • Augmenter le montant de l'allocation (actuellement 552,29 €) jugé insuffisant pour "vivre décemment" (seuil de pauvreté à 1396 €). L'objectif est de "sortir du dispositif pour aller vers le droit inconditionnel" pour subvenir aux besoins fondamentaux (se nourrir, se loger, se vêtir, se soigner).
      • Principe de "droit universel" vs "cumul de dispositifs" : Le COG estime que le cumul de dispositifs n'est pas toujours pertinent et que l'ouverture de droits universels est un "avantage conséquent" pour les jeunes.
      • Revenu Minimum Garanti Inconditionnel : Le COG a formulé de manière "répétée" cette recommandation. Plusieurs scénarios ont été étudiés (Revenu Universel d'Autonomie pour les 18-25 ans, Revenu Universel d'Émancipation sur critères de ressources, Revenu Universel d'Insertion pour les 18-25 ans). L'objectif est d'inscrire le jeune comme un "citoyen à part entière et pas juste un citoyen en devenir".
      • Insertion des jeunes décrocheurs : Le COG a rendu un avis sur l'obligation de formation avec 35 recommandations, insistant sur l'articulation entre les différents acteurs et politiques, et sur la nécessité de surmonter les problèmes de repérage et la "course aux chiffres".
      • Jeunes sortant de l'Aide Sociale à l'Enfance (ASE) : Ce public fragile (plus de 35000 majeurs concernés) rencontre des difficultés majeures d'accès aux études, au logement, aux soins. Le rapport "Laissez-nous rêver" (48 propositions concrètes) vise à améliorer leur prise en charge effective suite à la loi de 2022.

      6. Engagement des Jeunes

      • Il n'y a pas de "crise de l'engagement", mais une "évolution des formes d'engagement" (pétitions, manifestations, associations, vote, etc.). Il y a un enjeu à "reconnaître la diversité de ces formes d'engagement" et à le "valoriser".
      • Service National Universel (SNU) : Le COG a émis cinq avis sur ce dispositif. Si les objectifs initiaux (transmettre les valeurs républicaines, société de l'engagement, cohésion nationale) sont partagés, les modalités de mise en œuvre suscitent des débats. Le COG a proposé des pistes d'amélioration dès 2017.
      • Points d'alerte soulevés par le COG : Pilotage, rôle des services de l'État, gouvernance, association des acteurs de terrain, articulation avec les autres outils d'engagement (risque de "logique concurrentielle" avec le Service Civique), relation avec le BAFA, moyens humains et financiers du déploiement (inquiétude sur les locaux, charge de travail), mixité sociale (sous-représentation des jeunes de filières professionnelles/alternance, sur-représentation des jeunes de parents issus de corps en uniforme).
      • Un dispositif dont la définition est floue : Le SNU est souvent défini par la négative ("ni la colo, ni l'école, ni militaire"), rendant sa perception difficile pour les jeunes interrogés ("trop militaire, pas assez militaire").
      • Recommandation du COG (dernier avis) : Proposé parmi d'autres scénarios, l'"exonération de SNU les jeunes déjà engagés" pour reconnaître la validité des autres formes d'engagement.
      • Reconnaissance de l'engagement : Pouvoir encourager la participation citoyenne et l'engagement des jeunes "quelle que soit sa forme", car cet engagement n'est "pas forcément valorisé et reconnu".

      7. Santé Mentale

      • La crise du COVID-19 a mis en exergue une "précarité qui était existante", notamment en matière de santé mentale. Les jeunes vont "aussi mal qu'il y a 10 ans", mais la prise de conscience et la mise en lumière du problème sont plus récentes.
      • La commission de l'insertion travaille actuellement sur la santé mentale des jeunes dans le parcours d'insertion sociale et professionnelle.
      • La précarité étudiante aggrave la détresse psychologique (mal-logement, saut de repas, recours aux distributions alimentaires).
      • La question de l'accès au suivi psychologique et psychiatrique est cruciale, notamment en pédopsychiatrie où les délais d'attente sont longs.
      • Les dispositifs comme MonPsy ou Fil Santé Jeunes existent mais leur efficacité face aux obstacles (coût, tabou, accès) doit être améliorée.

      8. Autres Thématiques Abordées

      • Précarité étudiante : Le coût de la rentrée, le logement, l'alimentation, la nécessité de travailler pour subvenir aux besoins (souvent au détriment des études) sont des points alarmants. Le COG a recommandé la mise en place d'un revenu minimum garanti inconditionnel pour permettre aux étudiants de se concentrer sur leurs études.
      • Sport : Le sport est un vecteur de valeurs et de construction pour les jeunes. La baisse du nombre de licenciés sportifs scolaires (USEP) est préoccupante. Le Pass'Sport est une aide, mais son montant (50€ pour un coût moyen de licence/équipement à 150€) et son périmètre (inclure les associations sportives scolaires) sont à revoir. L'importance de la pratique physique et du bien-être au contact de la nature a également été soulignée, en complément des pratiques sportives plus compétitives.
      • Jeunes ruraux : Ils représentent un quart des 18-24 ans, sont attachés à leur territoire mais font plus d'études courtes et professionnelles, entrant plus tôt sur le marché du travail. Ils rencontrent des difficultés d'accès à la mobilité et aux services. Les inégalités hommes-femmes y sont plus marquées. La coordination des politiques publiques est plus compliquée et la confiance dans les institutions plus basse. La proposition de donner une compétence jeunesse aux intercommunalités est une piste de réflexion.
      • Enfants placés : Ce public particulièrement vulnérable (400 000 enfants concernés) est "plus que d'autres enfants Les enfants de la République". Ils sont sur-représentés parmi les décrocheurs, souffrent de problèmes de santé physique et mentale. Le COG a réalisé des travaux pour améliorer leur prise en charge, invitant à consulter son rapport "Laissez-nous rêver". Il est jugé "criminel" de généraliser le SNU (coût estimé à 5 milliards d'euros) alors que la protection de l'enfance (10 milliards d'euros) manque de moyens.
      • Transversalité des politiques jeunesse : Le constat d'un ministère de la Jeunesse affaibli, doublé d'autres portefeuilles et d'un ministre qui souhaite rester maire, interroge sur la capacité à mener une politique transversale réellement puissante. L'idée d'un "ministère de la Jeunesse" avec un secrétaire d'État à l'éducation nationale a été évoquée de manière provocatrice pour souligner l'importance de la transversalité.
      • Prévention et suivi des jeunes en difficulté : La prévention est clé face à la vulnérabilité. Renforcer les messages de prévention à l'école, améliorer le suivi psychologique et psychiatrique, mieux faire fonctionner les petites équipes en contact avec les jeunes repérés sont essentiels. L'effectivité des Conseils Locaux de Sécurité et de Prévention de la Délinquance (CLSPD) est questionnée.
      • Initiatives territoriales innovantes : Le COG suit ces initiatives (exemple du certificat universitaire pour les chargés d'information jeunesse à Lille) et pourrait accompagner leur extension si elles sont jugées pertinentes.

      Conclusion

      L'audition a mis en évidence la richesse des travaux du COG et la pertinence de ses analyses face aux défis multiples auxquels la jeunesse française est confrontée. Les appels à une meilleure coordination interministérielle, à un dialogue structuré avec les jeunes et les acteurs de terrain, à une reconnaissance et un soutien renforcés de l'éducation populaire, à l'évolution du modèle du CEJ vers un droit inconditionnel, et à la mise en place d'un revenu minimum garanti inconditionnel sont autant de pistes majeures soulevées par le COG.

      La question de la pérennisation des moyens du COG apparaît comme un préalable essentiel pour lui permettre de poursuivre et d'amplifier ses missions d'expertise et d'évaluation au service des politiques de jeunesse.

    1. 𝑞௪௔௧௘௥ = 𝑚௪௔௧௘௥ ∗ 𝑐௪௔௧௘௥ ∗△ 𝑇௪௔௧௘௥ Equation 1In calorimetry the heat flow of the water is equal to the negative of the heat flow of thedissolution process as shown below in Equation 2.𝑞ௗ௜௦௦௢௟௨௧௜௢௡ = −𝑞௪௔௧௘௥ Equation 2The overall value of △ 𝐻 can be determined using equation 3 shown below.△ 𝐻𝑑𝑖𝑠𝑠𝑜𝑙𝑢𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 = 𝑞𝑑𝑖𝑠𝑠𝑜𝑙𝑢𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑛𝑠𝑜𝑙𝑢𝑡𝑒Equation 3The equilibrium concentration 𝐾௖ can be determined by dissolving a compound in water.The known amount of a substance is dissolved which allows it to reach equilibrium. The 𝐾௖value is the molar solubility of the substance. The chemical equation describing the dissolutionof a substance and the 𝐾௖ equation is shown below in Equation 4 and 5.𝐶𝑂(𝑁𝐻2)2(𝑠) ⇌ 𝐶𝑂(𝑁𝐻2)2(𝑎𝑞) Equation 4𝐾௖=[𝐶𝑂(𝑁𝐻2)2]

      I would recommend adding some whitespace around the equations

    1. 有啥用

      这个目标——“从照片构建一个包含占据状态和语义信息的密集 3D 体积表示”——的意义在于,它提供了一个极其丰富和完整的现实世界三维理解,这对于许多需要与三维环境进行交互或理解的应用来说至关重要

      具体来说,它的意义体现在以下几个方面:

      1. 提供完整的环境几何和语义信息:

        • 超越表面: 传统的深度图或稀疏点云只能告诉你从传感器视角看到物体的表面在哪里。而密集 3D 占据则描述了整个 3D 空间每一个小体素是被物体占据了(“实心”)还是空的。这包含了物体的完整形状、内部结构(如果分辨率够高)以及物体之间的空隙信息。
        • 理解“是什么”: 除了几何占据,它还包含了语义信息。你不仅知道某个体素被占据了,还知道占据它的是什么(例如,是汽车、行人、树木、建筑墙壁,还是路面本身)。
      2. 为空间决策和交互提供基础:

        • 自动驾驶和机器人: 这是最直接的应用场景。自动驾驶汽车需要精确地知道周围环境的每一个角落是否被物体占据(障碍物在哪里),以及这些物体是什么类型,空闲空间在哪里。密集 3D 占据信息是路径规划、避障、自由空间检测的基石。它比稀疏点云更完整,比简单的 2D 检测或分割提供了更高维度和更全面的信息。
        • 避开“看不到”的区域: 通过整合来自不同摄像头视角的信息并利用学习到的场景和物体先验知识,Occupancy Network 有潜力预测或推断被当前视角遮挡住的 3D 空间的状态。这对于处理盲区和复杂遮挡情况至关重要。
        • 物理交互: 对于需要与环境进行物理交互的机器人或 AR/VR 应用,知道哪些空间被占据、被什么占据,以及哪些空间是空的,是进行抓取、放置、导航等任务的必要条件。
      3. 统一多种感知任务:

        • 传统的视觉感知可能需要单独进行目标检测、语义分割、实例分割、深度估计、场景流估计等任务。而一个高质量的密集 3D 语义占据表示,可以在一定程度上整合或作为许多这些下游任务的基础。例如,你可以从占据栅格中提取物体边界(检测)、体素的语义标签(语义分割)、甚至通过连接相邻的占据体素来表示实例(实例分割)。
      4. 实现更逼真和智能的 AR/VR:

        • 在现实世界中叠加虚拟内容时,需要精确理解真实世界的 3D 结构,才能实现正确的遮挡关系(虚拟物体被真实物体挡住)和物理交互。密集的 3D 语义占据信息可以构建一个高精度的真实环境数字孪生,使得 AR/VR 体验更加逼真和可信。

      总结:

      从照片构建一个包含占据状态和语义信息的密集 3D 体积表示,其意义在于它从根本上改变了机器对三维环境的理解方式,从片面的、稀疏的、基于表面的认知,转变为全面、密集、基于体积、且具有语义含义的认知。这为需要进行复杂空间推理、规划和交互的智能系统(如自动驾驶、机器人、AR/VR)提供了强大而完整的环境感知基础。

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This is a timely article that focuses on the molecular machinery in charge of the proliferation of pallial neural stem cells in chicks, and aims to compare them to what is known in mammals. miR19b is related to controlling the expression of E2f8 and NeuroD1, and this leads to a proper balance of division/differentiation, required for the generation of the right number of neurons and their subtype proportions. In my opinion, many experiments do reflect an interaction between all these genes and transcription factors, which likely supports the role of miR19b in participating in the proliferation/differentiation balance.

      Strengths:

      Most of the methodologies employed are suitable for the research question, and present data to support their conclusions.

      The authors were creative in their experimental design, in order to assess several aspects of pallial development.

      Weaknesses:

      However, there are several important issues that I think need to be addressed or clarified in order to provide a clearer main message for the article, as well as to clarify the tools employed. I consider it utterly important to review and reinterpret most of the anatomical concepts presented here. The way the are currently used is confusing and may mislead readers towards an understanding of the bird pallium that is no longer accepted by the community.

      Major Concerns:

      (1) Inaccurate use of neuroanatomy throughout the entire article. There are several aspects to it, that I will try to explain in the following paragraphs:

      a) Figure 1 shows a dynamic and variable expression pattern of miR19b and its relation to NeuroD1. Regardless of the terms used in this figure, it shows that miR19b may be acting differently in various parts of the pallium and developmental stages. However, all the rest of the experiments in the article (except a few cases) abolish these anatomical differences. It is not clear, but it is very important, where in the pallium the experiments are performed. I refer here, at least, to Figures 2C, E, F, H, I; 3D, E; 4C, D, G, I. Regarding time, all experiments were done at HH22, and the article does not show the native expression at this stage. The sacrifice timing is variable, and this variability is not always justified. But more importantly, we don't know where those images were taken, or what part of the pallium is represented in the images. Is it always the same? Do results reflect differences between DVR and Wulst gene expression modifications? The authors should include low magnification images of the regions where experiments were performed. And they should consider the variable expression of all genes when interpreting results.

      b) SVZ is not a postmitotic zone (as stated in line 123, and wrongly assigned throughout the text and figures). On the contrary, the SVZ is a secondary proliferative zone, organized in a layer, located in a basal position to the VZ. Both (VZ and SVZ) are germinative zones, containing mostly progenitors. The only postmitotic neurons in VZ and SVZ occupy them transiently when moving to the mantle zone, which is closer to the meninges and is the postmitotic territory. Please refer to the original Boulder committee articles to revise the SVZ definition. The authors, however, misinterpret this concept, and label the whole mantle zone as it this would be the SVZ. Indeed, the term "mantle zone" does not appear in the article. Please, revise and change the whole text and figures, as SVZ statements and photographs are nearly always misinterpreted. Indeed, SVZ is only labelled well in Figure 4F.

      The two articles mentioning the expression of NeuroD1 in the SVZ (line 118) are research in Xenopus. Is there a proliferative SVZ in Xenopus?

      For the actual existence of the SVZ in the chick pallium, please refer to the recent Rueda-Alaña et al., 2025 article that presents PH3 stainings at different timepoints and pallial areas.

      c) What is the Wulst, according to the authors of the article? In many figures, the Wulst includes the medial pallium and hippocampus, whereas sometimes it is used as a synonym of the hyperpallium (which excludes the medial pallium and hippocampus). Please make it clear, as the addition or not of the hippocampus definitely changes some interpretations.

      d) The authors compare the entirety of the chick pallium - including the hippocampus (see above), hyperpallium, mesopallium, nidopallium - to only the neocortex of mammals. This view - as shown in Suzuki et al., 2012 - forgets the specificity of pallial areas of the pallium and compares it to cortical cells. This is conceptually wrong, and leads to incorrect interpretations (please refer to Luis Puelles' commentaries on Suzuki et al results); there are incorrect conclusions about the existence of upper-layer-like and deep-layer-like neurons in the pallium of birds. The view is not only wrong according to the misinterpreted anatomical comparisons, but also according to novel scRNAseq data (Rueda-Alaña et al., 2025; Zaremba et al., 2025; Hecker et al., 2025). These articles show that many avian glutamatergic neurons of the pallium have highly diversified, and are not comparable to mammalian cortical cells. The authors should therefore avoid this incorrect use of terminology. There are not such upper-layer-like and deep-layer-like neurons in the pallium of birds.

      (2) From introduction to discussion, the article uses misleading terms and outdated concepts of cell type homology and similarity between chick and pallial territories and cells. The authors must avoid this confusing terminology, as non-expert readers will come to evolutionary conclusions which are not supported by the data in this article; indeed, the article does not deal with those concepts.

      a) Recent articles published in Science (Rueda-Alaña et al., 2025; Zaremba et al., 2025; Hecker et al., 2025) directly contradict some views presented in this article. These articles should be presented in the introduction as they are utterly important for the subject of this article and their results should be discussed in the light of the new findings of this article. Accordingly, the authors should avoid claiming any homology that is not currently supported. The expression of a single gene is not enough anymore to claim the homology of neuronal populations.

      b) Auditory cortex is not an appropriate term, as there is no cortex in the pallium of birds. Cortical areas require the existence of neuronal arrangements in laminae that appear parallel to the ventricular surface. It is not the case of either hyperpallium or auditory DVR. The accepted term, according to the Avian Nomenclature forum, is Field L.

      c) Forebrain, a term overused in the article, is very unspecific. It includes vast areas of the brain, from the pretectum and thalamus to the olfactory bulb. However the authors are not researching most of the forebrain here. They should be more specific throughout the text and title.

      (3) In the last part of the results, the authors claim miR19b has a role in patterning the avian pallium. What they see is that modifying its expression induces changes in gene expression in certain neurons. Accordingly, the altered neurons would differentiate into other subtypes, not similar to the wild type example. In this sense, miR19b may have a role in cell specification or neuronal differentiation. However, patterning is a different developmental event, which refers to the determination of broad genetic areas and territories. I don't think miR19b has a role in patterning.

      (4) Please add a scheme of the molecules described in this article and the suggested interaction between them.

      (5) The methods section is way too brief to allow for repeatability of the procedures. This may be due to an editorial policy but if possible, please extend the details of the experimental procedures.

    2. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):  

      Summary:  

      This study provides new insights into the role of miR-19b, an oncogenic microRNA, in the developing chicken pallium. Dynamic expression pattern of miR-19b is associated with its role in regulating cell cycle progression in neural progenitor cells. Furthermore, miR-19b is involved in determining neuronal subtypes by regulating Fezf2 expression during pallial development. These findings suggest an important role for miR-19b in the coordinated spatio-temporal regulation of neural progenitor cell dynamics and its evolutionary conservation across vertebrate species.  

      Strengths:  

      The authors identified conserved roles of miR-19 in the regulation of neural progenitor maintenance between mouse and chick, and the latter is mediated by the repression of E2f8 and NeuroD1. Furthermore, the authors found that miR-19b-dependent cell cycle regulation is tightly associated with specification of Fezf1 or Mef2c-positive neurons, in spatio-temporal manners during chicken pallial development. These findings uncovered molecular mechanisms underlying microRNA-mediated neurogenic controls.  

      Weaknesses:  

      Although the authors in this study claimed striking similarities of miR-19a/b in neurogenesis between mouse and chick pallium, a previous study by Bian et al. revealed that miR-19a contributes the expansion of radial glial cells by suppressing PTEN expression in the developing mouse neocortex, while miR-19b maintains apical progenitors via inhibiting E2f2 and NeuroD1 in chicken pallium. Thus, it is still unclear whether the orthologous microRNAs regulate common or species-specific target genes.  

      In this study, we have proposed that miR-19b regulates similar phenomena in both species using different targets, such as regulation of proliferation through PTEN in mouse and through E2f8 in the chicken.

      The spatiotemporal expression patterns of miR-19b and several genes are not convincing. For example, the authors claim that NeuroD1 is initially expressed uniformly in the subventricular zone (SVZ) but disappears in the DVR region by HH29 and becomes detectable by HH35 (Figure 1). However, the in situ hybridization data revealed that NeuroD1 is highly expressed in the SVZ of the DVR at HH29 (Figure 4F). Thus, perhaps due to the problem of immunohistochemistry, the authors have not been able to detect NeuroD1 expression in Figure 1D, and the interpretation of the data may require significant modification.  

      While Fig. 1B may suggest that NeuroD1 expression has disappeared from the DVR region by HH29, this is not true in general because we have observed NeuroD1 to be expressed in the DVR at HH29 in images of other sections. In the revised version, we will include improved images for panels of Fig. 1B which accurately show the expression pattern of NeuroD1 and miR19b at stages HH29 and HH35.  

      It seems that miR-19b is also expressed in neurons (Figure 1), suggesting the role of miR19-b must be different in progenitors and differentiated neurons. The data on the gain- and loss-offunction analysis of miR-19b on the expression of Mef2c should be carefully considered, as it is possible that these experiments disturb the neuronal functions of miR19b rather than in the progenitors.

      As pointed out by the reviewer, it is quite possible that upon manipulation of miR19b its neuronal functions are also perturbed in addition to its function in progenitor cells. After introducing gain-of-function construct in progenitor cells, we have observed changes in the morphology of these cells. These data will be included in the revised version.

      The regions of chicken pallium were not consistent among figures: in Figure 1, they showed caudal parts of the pallium (HH29 and 35), while the data in Figure 4 corresponded to the rostral part of the pallium (Figure 4B).  

      We will address this by providing images from a similar region of the pallium showing Fezf2 and Mef2c expression patterns.

      The neurons expressing Fezf2 and Mef2 in the chicken pallium are not homologous neuronal subtypes to mammalian deep and superficial cortical neurons. The authors must understand that chicken pallial development proceeds in an outside-in manner. Thus, Mef2c-postive neurons in a superficial part are early-born neurons, while FezF2-positive neurons residing in deep areas are later-born neurons. It should be noted that the expression of a single marker gene does not support cell type homology, and the authors' description "the possibility of primitive pallial lamina formation in common ancestors of birds and mammals" is misleading.  

      We appreciate this clarification and will modify or remove this statement regarding the “primitive pallial lamina formation” to avoid any confusion and misinterpretation. 

      Overexpression of CDKN1A or Sponge-19b induced ectopic expression of Fezf2 in the ventricular zone (Figure 3C, E). Do these cells maintain progenitor statement or prematurely differentiate to neurons? In addition, the authors must explain that the induction of Fezf2 is also detected in GFP-negative cells.  

      We propose to follow up on the fate of these cells by extending the observation period post-overexpression of CDKN1A or Sponge-19b to assess whether they retain progenitor characteristics or differentiate. The presence of Fezf2 in GFP-negative cells could be due to the non-cell-autonomous effects, and we will discuss this possibility in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):  

      Summary:  

      This paper investigates the general concept that avian and mammalian pallium specifications share similar mechanisms. To explore that idea, the authors focus their attention on the role of miR-19b as a key controlling factor in the neuronal proliferation/differentiation balance. To do so, the authors checked the expression and protein level of several genes involved in neuronal differentiation, such as NeuroD1 or E2f8, genes also expressed in mammals after conducting their functional gene manipulation experiments. The work also shows a dysregulation in the number of neurons from lower and upper layers when miR-19b expression is altered.  

      To test it, the authors conducted a series of functional experiments of gain and loss of function (G&LoF) and enhancer-reporter assays. The enhancer-reporter assays demonstrate a direct relationship between miR-19b and NeuroD1 and E2f8 which is also validated by the G&LoF experiments. It´s also noteworthy to mention that the way miR-19b acts is maintaining the progenitor cells from the ventricular zone in an undifferentiated stage, thus promoting them into a stage of cellular division.  

      Overall, the paper argues that the expression of miR-19b in the ventricular zone promotes the cells in a proliferative phase and inhibits the expression of differentiation genes such as E2f8 and NeurD1. The authors claim that a decrease in the progenitor cell pool leads to an increase and decrease in neurons in the lower and upper layers, respectively.  

      Strengths:  

      (1) Novelty Contribution  

      The paper offers strong arguments to prove that the neurodevelopmental basis between mammals and birds is quite the same. Moreover, this work contributes to a better understanding of brain evolution along the animal evolutionary tree and will give us a clearer idea about the roots of how our brain has been developed. This stands in contrast to the conventional framing of mammal brain development as an independent subject unlinked to the "less evolved species". The authors also nicely show a concept that was previously restricted to mammals - the role of microRNAs in development.  

      (2) Right experimental approach  

      The authors perform a set of functional experiments correctly adjusted to answer the role of miR-19b in the control of neuronal stem cell proliferation and differentiation. Their histological, functional, and genetic approach gives us a clear idea about the relations between several genes involved in the differentiation of the neurons in the avian pallium. In this idea, they maintain the role of miR-19b as a hub controller, keeping the ventricular zone cells in an undifferentiated stage to perpetuate the cellular pool.  

      (3) Future directions  

      The findings open a door to future experiments, particularly to a better comprehension of the role of microRNAs and pallidal genetic connections. Furthermore, this work also proves the use of avians as a model to study cortical development due to the similarities with mammals.  

      Weaknesses:  

      While there are questions answered, there are still several that remain unsolved. The experiments analyzed here lead us to speculate that the early differentiation of the progenitor cells from the ventricular zone entails a reduction in the cellular pool, affecting thereafter the number of latter-born neurons (upper layers). The authors should explore that option by testing progenitor cell markers in the ventricular zone, such as Pax6. Even so, it remains possible that miR-19b is also changing the expression pattern of neurons that are going to populate the different layers, instead of their numbers, so the authors cannot rule that out or verify it. Since the paper focuses on the role of miR-19b in patterning, I think the authors should check the relationship and expression between progenitors (Pax6) and intermediate (Tbr2) cells when miR-19b is affected. Since neuronal expression markers change so fast within a few days (HH24HH35), I don't understand why the authors stop the functional experiments at different time points.  

      To address this, we will examine the expression of Pax6 and Tbr2 following both gain-of-function and loss-of-function manipulations of miR-19b. We agree with the reviewer that miR-19b may influence not only the number of neurons but also the expression pattern of neuronal markers.  Due to the limitations of our experimental design, we acknowledge that this possibility cannot be ruled out. 

      Regarding time points chosen for the functional experiments: We selected different stages based on the expression dynamics of specific markers. To detect possible ectopic induction, we analyzed developmental stages where the expression of a given marker is normally absent. Conversely, to detect loss of expression we examined stages in which the marker is typically expressed robustly. This approach allowed us to better interpret the functional consequences of miR-19b manipulation within relevant developmental windows. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):  

      Summary:  

      This is a timely article that focuses on the molecular machinery in charge of the proliferation of pallial neural stem cells in chicks, and aims to compare them to what is known in mammals. miR19b is related to controlling the expression of E2f8 and NeuroD1, and this leads to a proper balance of division/differentiation, required for the generation of the right number of neurons and their subtype proportions. In my opinion, many experiments do reflect an interaction between all these genes and transcription factors, which likely supports the role of miR19b in participating in the proliferation/differentiation balance.  

      Strengths:  

      Most of the methodologies employed are suitable for the research question, and present data to support their conclusions.  

      The authors were creative in their experimental design, in order to assess several aspects of pallial development.  

      Weaknesses:  

      However, there are several important issues that I think need to be addressed or clarified in order to provide a clearer main message for the article, as well as to clarify the tools employed. I consider it utterly important to review and reinterpret most of the anatomical concepts presented here. The way the are currently used is confusing and may mislead readers towards an understanding of the bird pallium that is no longer accepted by the community.  

      Major Concerns:  

      (1) Inaccurate use of neuroanatomy throughout the entire article. There are several aspects to it, that I will try to explain in the following paragraphs:  

      Figure 1 shows a dynamic and variable expression pattern of miR19b and its relation to NeuroD1. Regardless of the terms used in this figure, it shows that miR19b may be acting differently in various parts of the pallium and developmental stages. However, all the rest of the experiments in the article (except a few cases) abolish these anatomical differences. It is not clear, but it is very important, where in the pallium the experiments are performed. I refer here, at least, to Figures 2C, E, F, H, I; 3D, E; 4C, D, G, I. Regarding time, all experiments were done at HH22, and the article does not show the native expression at this stage. The sacrifice timing is variable, and this variability is not always justified. But more importantly, we don't know where those images were taken, or what part of the pallium is represented in the images. Is it always the same? Do results reflect differences between DVR and Wulst gene expression modifications? The authors should include low magnification images of the regions where experiments were performed. And they should consider the variable expression of all genes when interpreting results.  

      We agree that precise anatomical context is essential. In the revised version, we propose to: 

      a) Include schematics of the regions of interest where experimental manipulations were performed.

      b) Provide low-magnification panoramic images where appropriate, for anatomical reference.

      c) Show the expression patterns of relevant marker genes to better justify stages and region selection. 

      d) Provide the expression pattern of markers in panoramic view to show differential expression in the DVR and Wulst region and interpret our results accordingly.

      b) SVZ is not a postmitotic zone (as stated in line 123, and wrongly assigned throughout the text and figures). On the contrary, the SVZ is a secondary proliferative zone, organized in a layer, located in a basal position to the VZ. Both (VZ and SVZ) are germinative zones, containing mostly progenitors. The only postmitotic neurons in VZ and SVZ occupy them transiently when moving to the mantle zone, which is closer to the meninges and is the postmitotic territory. Please refer to the original Boulder committee articles to revise the SVZ definition. The authors, however, misinterpret this concept, and label the whole mantle zone as it this would be the SVZ. Indeed, the term "mantle zone" does not appear in the article. Please, revise and change the whole text and figures, as SVZ statements and photographs are nearly always misinterpreted. Indeed, SVZ is only labelled well in Figure 4F.  

      The two articles mentioning the expression of NeuroD1 in the SVZ (line 118) are research in Xenopus. Is there a proliferative SVZ in Xenopus?  

      For the actual existence of the SVZ in the chick pallium, please refer to the recent Rueda-Alaña et al., 2025 article that presents PH3 stainings at different timepoints and pallial areas.  

      We appreciate the correction suggested by the reviewer. In the revised manuscript: a) SVZ will be labeled correctly in all figures and descriptions b) The mantle zone terminology will be incorporated appropriately c) The two Xenopus-based references in line 118 will be removed as they are not directly relevant and d) We will refer to the Rueda-Alaña et al., (2025) to guide accurate anatomical labeling and interpretation of proliferative zones.

      We also acknowledge that while some proliferative cells exist in the SVZ of the chicken, they are relatively few and do not express typical basal progenitor markers such as Tbr2 (Nomura et al., 2016, Development). We will ensure that this nuance is clearly reflected in the text. 

      What is the Wulst, according to the authors of the article? In many figures, the Wulst includes the medial pallium and hippocampus, whereas sometimes it is used as a synonym of the hyperpallium (which excludes the medial pallium and hippocampus). Please make it clear, as the addition or not of the hippocampus definitely changes some interpretations.  

      We propose to modify the text and figures to accurately represent the correct location of the Wulst in the chick pallium.

      d) The authors compare the entirety of the chick pallium - including the hippocampus (see above), hyperpallium, mesopallium, nidopallium - to only the neocortex of mammals. This view - as shown in Suzuki et al., 2012 - forgets the specificity of pallial areas of the pallium and compares it to cortical cells. This is conceptually wrong, and leads to incorrect interpretations (please refer to Luis Puelles' commentaries on Suzuki et al results); there are incorrect conclusions about the existence of upper-layer-like and deep-layer-like neurons in the pallium of birds. The view is not only wrong according to the misinterpreted anatomical comparisons, but also according to novel scRNAseq data (Rueda-Alaña et al., 2025; Zaremba et al., 2025; Hecker et al., 2025). These articles show that many avian glutamatergic neurons of the pallium have highly diversified, and are not comparable to mammalian cortical cells. The authors should therefore avoid this incorrect use of terminology. There are not such upper-layer-like and deeplayer-like neurons in the pallium of birds.  

      We acknowledge this conceptual oversight. In the manuscript: a) We will avoid direct comparisons between the entire chick pallium and the mammalian neocortex b) Terms like “upper-layer-like” and deep-layer-like” neurons will be removed or modified d) We will cite and integrate recent findings from Rueda-Alaña et al. (2025), Zaremba et al. (2025), and Hecker et al. (2025), which provide updated insights from scRNAseq analyses into the complexity of avian pallial neurons. Cell types will be described based on marker gene expression only, without unsupported evolutionary or homology claims.

      (2) From introduction to discussion, the article uses misleading terms and outdated concepts of cell type homology and similarity between chick and pallial territories and cells. The authors must avoid this confusing terminology, as non-expert readers will come to evolutionary conclusions which are not supported by the data in this article; indeed, the article does not deal with those concepts.  

      We agree with the reviewer. In the revised version, we will remove the misleading terms and outdated concepts and avoid speculative evolutionary conclusions.  

      a) Recent articles published in Science (Rueda-Alaña et al., 2025; Zaremba et al., 2025; Hecker et al., 2025) directly contradict some views presented in this article. These articles should be presented in the introduction as they are utterly important for the subject of this article and their results should be discussed in the light of the new findings of this article. Accordingly, the authors should avoid claiming any homology that is not currently supported. The expression of a single gene is not enough anymore to claim the homology of neuronal populations.  

      In the revised version, these above-mentioned articles (Rueda-Alaña et al., 2025; Zaremba et al., 2025; Hecker et al., 2025) will be included in the introduction and discussion.  Our interpretations will be updated to reflect these new insights into neuronal diversity and regionalization in the chick pallium. 

      Auditory cortex is not an appropriate term, as there is no cortex in the pallium of birds. Cortical areas require the existence of neuronal arrangements in laminae that appear parallel to the ventricular surface. It is not the case of either hyperpallium or auditory DVR. The accepted term, according to the Avian Nomenclature forum, is Field L.  

      We will replace all instances of “auditory cortex” with “Field L”, as per the accepted terminology in the Avian Nomenclature Forum.

      c) Forebrain, a term overused in the article, is very unspecific. It includes vast areas of the brain, from the pretectum and thalamus to the olfactory bulb. However, the authors are not researching most of the forebrain here. They should be more specific throughout the text and title.  

      In the revised version, we will replace “forebrain” with “Pallium” throughout the manuscript to more accurately reflect the regions studied.

      (3) In the last part of the results, the authors claim miR19b has a role in patterning the avian pallium. What they see is that modifying its expression induces changes in gene expression in certain neurons. Accordingly, the altered neurons would differentiate into other subtypes, not similar to the wild type example. In this sense, miR19b may have a role in cell specification or neuronal differentiation. However, patterning is a different developmental event, which refers to the determination of broad genetic areas and territories. I don't think miR19b has a role in patterning.  

      We agree with the reviewers that an alteration in one marker for a particular cell type may not indicate a change in patterning. However, including the effect of miR-19b gain- and loss-of-function on Pax6 and Tbr2, may strengthen the idea that it affects patterning as suggested by reviewer #2. 

      (4) Please add a scheme of the molecules described in this article and the suggested interaction between them.  

      In the revised version, we propose to include a diagram to visually summarize the proposed interactions between miR-19b, E2f8, NeuroD1, and other key regulators.  

      (5) The methods section is way too brief to allow for repeatability of the procedures. This may be due to an editorial policy but if possible, please extend the details of the experimental procedures.  

      We will expand the Methods section to provide more detailed protocols and justifications for experimental design, in alignment with journal policy.

    1. ASMR

      ASMR(Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response,自发性知觉经络反应)是一种通过特定视听或感官刺激触发的生理和心理反应,通常表现为头皮、颈部或背部的轻微刺麻感,伴随深度的放松、平静或愉悦感。以下是关于ASMR的详细解释:


      1. 核心特征

      • 触发方式:通过轻柔的声音(如耳语、摩擦声、敲击声)、视觉动作(如手部缓慢移动、专注的手工操作)或触觉刺激(如轻拍)引发。
      • 典型体验
      • 刺麻感:从头皮开始向下蔓延的酥麻或电流般感觉。
      • 放松效果:心率降低、呼吸变缓,焦虑和压力减轻。
      • 专注感:部分人感到注意力集中或困倦(常用于助眠)。

      2. 常见触发因素

      • 听觉触发
      • 耳语、轻柔说话声。
      • 环境音(雨声、翻书声、键盘敲击)。
      • 物体摩擦声(梳头、揉纸、摩擦麦克风)。
      • 视觉触发
      • 手部动作(绘画、折叠衣物、模拟触摸)。
      • 专注的细节操作(化妆、雕刻、整理物品)。
      • 情境触发
      • 角色扮演(理发师模拟、医生检查)。
      • 个人注意力关注(如被轻柔照顾的感觉)。

      3. 科学解释与研究

      • 神经机制:可能与大脑的默认模式网络(DMN)激活有关,涉及边缘系统(情绪调节)和感觉皮层的联动。
      • 多巴胺与内啡肽:部分研究表明,ASMR可促进愉悦相关神经递质释放。
      • 个体差异:约20%的人能明确体验到ASMR,部分人无感甚至反感特定触发音。
      • 研究支持
      • 减压效果:2018年《PLOS ONE》研究显示ASMR可显著降低焦虑和心率。
      • 助眠作用:用户报告通过ASMR视频改善失眠问题。

      4. 应用场景

      • 放松与减压:缓解日常压力、焦虑症辅助手段。
      • 助眠工具:通过舒缓刺激帮助入睡(尤其针对失眠人群)。
      • 专注力提升:部分人用于学习或工作前的注意力集中。
      • 内容创作:YouTube、B站等平台的ASMR视频/直播,涵盖白噪音、角色扮演、沉浸式体验。

      5. 注意事项

      • 个人适配性:并非所有人都会产生ASMR反应,需尝试不同触发类型。
      • 音量控制:避免长时间高音量使用耳机,防止听力损伤。
      • 内容选择:某些触发音可能引起不适(如咀嚼声),需谨慎筛选。

      6. 与类似概念的区别

      • Frisson(寒颤):由音乐或情感引发的短暂颤抖,通常伴随激动或震撼感,与ASMR的放松感不同。
      • 冥想/正念:ASMR是被动接受刺激的放松,冥想是主动的心理调节。

      总结

      ASMR是一种通过感官刺激引发深度放松的体验,其科学机制仍在探索中,但已被广泛用于心理调节和内容创作。若你从未尝试过,可通过YouTube搜索“ASMR whispering”或“ASMR tapping”体验,选择安静环境佩戴耳机效果更佳。

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors aim to understand the neural basis of implicit causal inference, specifically how people infer causes of illness. They use fMRI to explore whether these inferences rely on content-specific semantic networks or broader, domain-general neurocognitive mechanisms. The study explores two key hypotheses: first, that causal inferences about illness rely on semantic networks specific to living things, such as the 'animacy network,' given that illnesses affect only animate beings; and second, that there might be a common brain network supporting causal inferences across various domains, including illness, mental states, and mechanical failures. By examining these hypotheses, the authors aim to determine whether causal inferences are supported by specialized or generalized neural systems.

      The authors observed that inferring illness causes selectively engaged a portion of the precuneus (PC) associated with the semantic representation of animate entities, such as people and animals. They found no cortical areas that responded to causal inferences across different domains, including illness and mechanical failures. Based on these findings, the authors concluded that implicit causal inferences are supported by content-specific semantic networks, rather than a domain-general neural system, indicating that the neural basis of causal inference is closely tied to the semantic representation of the specific content involved.

      Strengths:

      - The inclusion of the four conditions in the design is well thought out, allowing for the examination of the unique contribution of causal inference of illness compared to either a different type of causal inference (mechanical) or non-causal conditions. This design also has the potential to identify regions involved in a shared representation of inference across general domains.

      - The presence of the three localizers for language, logic, and mentalizing, along with the selection of specific regions of interest (ROIs), such as the precuneus and anterior ventral occipitotemporal cortex (antVOTC), is a strong feature that supports a hypothesis-driven approach (although see below for a critical point related to the ROI selection).

      - The univariate analysis pipeline is solid and well developed.

      - The statistical analyses are a particularly strong aspect of the paper.

      Weaknesses:

      After carefully considering the authors' response, I believe that my primary concern has not been fully addressed. My main point remains unresolved:

      The authors attempt to test for the presence of a shared network by performing only the Causal vs. Non-causal analysis. However, this approach is not sufficiently informative because it includes all conditions mixed together and does not clarify whether both the illness-causal and mechanical-causal conditions contribute to the observed results.

      To address this limitation, I originally suggested an additional step: using as ROIs the different regions that emerged in the Causal vs. Non-causal decoding analysis and conducting four separate decoding analyses within these specific clusters:<br /> (1) Illness-Causal vs. Non-causal - Illness First<br /> (2) Illness-Causal vs. Non-causal - Mechanical First<br /> (3) Mechanical-Causal vs. Non-causal - Illness First<br /> (4) Mechanical-Causal vs. Non-causal - Mechanical First

      This approach would allow the authors to determine whether any of these ROIs can decode both the illness-causal and mechanical-causal conditions against at least one non-causal condition. However, the authors did not conduct these analyses, citing an independence issue. I disagree with this reasoning because these analyses would serve to clarify their initial general analysis, in which multiple conditions were mixed together. As the results currently stand, it remains unclear which specific condition is driving the effects.

      My suggestion was to select the ROIs from their general analysis (Causal vs. Non-causal) and then examine in more detail which conditions were driving these results. This is not a case of double-dipping from my perspective, but rather a necessary step to unpack the general findings. Moreover, using ROIs would actually reduce the number of multiple comparisons that need to be controlled for.

      If the authors believe that this approach is methodologically incorrect, then they should instead conduct all possible analyses at the whole-brain level to examine the effects of the specific conditions independently.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors test whether intuitive biological causal knowledge is embedded in domain-specific semantic networks, primarily focusing on the precuneus as part of the animacy semantic network. They do so tanks to an fMRI task, by comparing brain activity elicited by participants' exposure to written situations suggesting a plausible cause of illness with brain activity in linguistically equivalent situations suggesting a plausible cause of mechanical failure or damage and non-causal situations. These contrasts confirm the PC as the main "culprit" in whole-brain and fROIs univariate analyses. In turn, inferring causes of mechanical failure engages mostly the PPA. The authors further test whether the content-specificity has to do with inferences about animates in general, or if there are some distinctions between reasoning about people's bodies versus mental states. To answer this question, the authors localize the mentalizing network and study the relation between brain activity elicited by Illness-Causal > Mech-Causal and Mentalizing > Physical stories. They conclude that inferring about the causes of illness partially differentiates from reasoning about people's states of mind. The authors finally test the alternative yet non-mutually exclusive hypothesis that both types of implicit causal inferences (illness and mechanical) depend on shared neural machinery. Good candidates are language and logic, which justifies the use of a language/logic localizer. No evidence of commonalities across causal inferences versus non-causal situations are found.

      Strengths:

      (1) This study introduces a useful paradigm and well-designed set of stimuli to test for implicit causal inferences.<br /> (2) Another important methodological advance is the addition of physical stories to the original mentalizing protocol.<br /> These tools pave the way for further investigation of domain-specific causal inference.<br /> (3) The authors have significantly improved the manuscript, addressing previous concerns and incorporating additional analyses that strengthen their conclusions.

      Key improvements:<br /> (1) The revised introduction makes the study's contribution more explicit and resolves initial ambiguities regarding its scope.<br /> (2) The rationale for focusing primarily on the precuneus is now clearer and the additional analysis in the fusiform face area provides a valuable comparison.<br /> (3) The revised manuscript now includes a more detailed examination of the searchlight MVPA results, showing that illness and mechanical inferences elicit spatially distinct neural patterns in key regions, including the left PC, anterior PPA, and lateral occipitotemporal cortex.<br /> (4) The authors' justification for using an implicit inference task, arguing that explicit tasks introduce executive function confounds, is convincing.<br /> (5) The authors now acknowledge that while their results support a content-specific neural basis for implicit causal inference, domain-general mechanisms may still play a role in other contexts.

      I have no major remaining concerns.

    3. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors aim to understand the neural basis of implicit causal inference, specifically how people infer causes of illness. They use fMRI to explore whether these inferences rely on content-specific semantic networks or broader, domain-general neurocognitive mechanisms. The study explores two key hypotheses: first, that causal inferences about illness rely on semantic networks specific to living things, such as the 'animacy network,' given that illnesses affect only animate beings; and second, that there might be a common brain network supporting causal inferences across various domains, including illness, mental states, and mechanical failures. By examining these hypotheses, the authors aim to determine whether causal inferences are supported by specialized or generalized neural systems.

      The authors observed that inferring illness causes selectively engaged a portion of the precuneus (PC) associated with the semantic representation of animate entities, such as people and animals. They found no cortical areas that responded to causal inferences across different domains, including illness and mechanical failures. Based on these findings, the authors concluded that implicit causal inferences are supported by content-specific semantic networks, rather than a domain-general neural system, indicating that the neural basis of causal inference is closely tied to the semantic representation of the specific content involved.

      Strengths:

      (1) The inclusion of the four conditions in the design is well thought out, allowing for the examination of the unique contribution of causal inference of illness compared to either a different type of causal inference (mechanical) or non-causal conditions. This design also has the potential to identify regions involved in a shared representation of inference across general domains.

      (2) The presence of the three localizers for language, logic, and mentalizing, along with the selection of specific regions of interest (ROIs), such as the precuneus and anterior ventral occipitotemporal cortex (antVOTC), is a strong feature that supports a hypothesis-driven approach (although see below for a critical point related to the ROI selection).

      (3) The univariate analysis pipeline is solid and well-developed.

      (4) The statistical analyses are a particularly strong aspect of the paper.

      Weaknesses:

      Based on the current analyses, it is not yet possible to rule out the hypothesis that inferring illness causes relies on neurocognitive mechanisms that support causal inferences irrespective of their content, neither in the precuneus nor in other parts of the brain.

      (1) The authors, particularly in the multivariate analyses, do not thoroughly examine the similarity between the two conditions (illness-causal and mechanical-causal), as they are more focused on highlighting the differences between them. For instance, in the searchlight MVPA analysis, an interesting decoding analysis is conducted to identify brain regions that represent illness-causal and mechanical-causal conditions differently, yielding results consistent with the univariate analyses. However, to test for the presence of a shared network, the authors only perform the Causal vs. Non-causal analysis. This analysis is not very informative because it includes all conditions mixed together and does not clarify whether both the illness-causal and mechanical-causal conditions contribute to these results.

      (2) To address this limitation, a useful additional step would be to use as ROIs the different regions that emerged in the Causal vs. Non-causal decoding analysis and to conduct four separate decoding analyses within these specific clusters:

      (a) Illness-Causal vs. Non-causal - Illness First;

      (b) Illness-Causal vs. Non-causal - Mechanical First;

      (c) Mechanical-Causal vs. Non-causal - Illness First;

      (d) Mechanical-Causal vs. Non-causal - Mechanical First.

      This approach would allow the authors to determine whether any of these ROIs can decode both the illness-causal and mechanical-causal conditions against at least one non-causal condition.

      (3) Another possible analysis to investigate the existence of a shared network would be to run the searchlight analysis for the mechanical-causal condition versus the two non-causal conditions, as was done for the illness-causal versus non-causal conditions, and then examine the conjunction between the two. Specifically, the goal would be to identify ROIs that show significant decoding accuracy in both analyses.

      The hypothesis that a neural mechanism supports causal inference across domains predicts higher univariate responses when causal inferences occur than when they do not. This prediction was not generated by us ad hoc but rather has been made by almost all previous cognitive neuroscience papers on this topic (Ferstl & von Cramon, 2001; Satpute et al., 2005; Fugelsang & Dunbar, 2005; Kuperberg et al., 2006; Fenker et al., 2010; Kranjec et al., 2012; Pramod, Chomik-Morales, et al., 2023; Chow et al., 2008; Mason & Just, 2011; Prat et al., 2011). Contrary to this hypothesis, we find that the precuneus (PC) is most activated for illness inferences and most deactivated for mechanical inferences relative to rest, suggesting that the PC does not support domain-general causal inference. To further probe the selectivity of the PC for illness inferences, we created group overlap maps that compare PC responses to illness inferences and mechanical inferences across participants. The PC shows a strong preference for illness inferences and is therefore unlikely to support causal inferences irrespective of their content (Supplementary Figures 6 and 7). We also note that, in whole-cortex analysis, no shared regions responded more to causal inference than noncausal vignettes across domains. Therefore, the prediction made by the ‘domain-general causal engine’ proposal as it has been articulated in the literature is not supported in our data.

      Taking a multivariate approach, the hypothesis that a neural mechanism supports causal inference across domains also predicts that relevant regions can decode between all possible pairs of causal vs. noncausal conditions (e.g., Illness-Causal vs. Noncausal-Illness First, Mechanical-Causal vs. Noncausal-Illness First, etc.). The analysis described by the reviewer in (2), in which the regions that distinguish between causal vs. noncausal conditions in searchlight MVPA are used as ROIs to test various causal vs. noncausal contrasts, is non-independent. Therefore, we cannot perform this analysis. In accordance with the reviewer’s suggestions in (3), now include searchlight MVPA results for the mechanical inference condition compared to the two noncausal conditions (Supplementary Figure 9). No regions are shared across the searchlight analyses comparing all possible pairs of causal and noncausal conditions, providing further evidence that there are no shared neural responses to causal inference in our dataset.

      (4) Along the same lines, for the ROI MVPA analysis, it would be useful not only to include the illness-causal vs. mechanical-causal decoding but also to examine the illness-causal vs. non-causal conditions and the mechanical-causal vs. non-causal conditions. Additionally, it would be beneficial to report these data not just in a table (where only the mean accuracy is shown) but also using dot plots, allowing the readers to see not only the mean values but also the accuracy for each individual subject.

      We have performed these analyses and now include a table of the results as well as figures displaying the dispersion across participants (Supplementary Tables 2 and 3, Supplementary Figures 10 and 11). In the left PC, the illness inference condition was decoded from one of the noncausal conditions, and the mechanical inference condition was decoded from the same noncausal condition. The language network did not decode between any causal/noncausal pairs. In the logic network, the illness inference condition was decoded from one of the noncausal conditions, and the mechanical inference condition was decoded from the other noncausal condition. Thus, no regions showed the predicted ‘domain-general’ pattern, i.e., significant decoding between all causal/noncausal pairs. 

      Importantly, the decoding results must be interpreted in light of significant univariate differences across conditions (e.g., greater responses to illness inferences compared to noncausal vignettes in the PC). Linear classifiers are highly sensitive to univariate differences (Coutanche, 2013; Kragel et al., 2012; Hebart & Baker, 2018; Woolgar et al., 2014; Davis et al., 2014; Pakravan et al., 2022).

      (5) The selection of Regions of Interest (ROIs) is not entirely straightforward:

      In the introduction, the authors mention that recent literature identifies the precuneus (PC) as a region that responds preferentially to images and words related to living things across various tasks. While this may be accurate, we can all agree that other regions within the ventral occipital-temporal cortex also exhibit such preferences, particularly areas like the fusiform face area, the occipital face area, and the extrastriate body area. I believe that at least some parts of this network (e.g., the fusiform gyrus) should be included as ROIs in this study. This inclusion would make sense, especially because a complementary portion of the ventral stream known to prefer non-living items (i.e., anterior medial VOTC) has been selected as a control ROI to process information about the mechanical-causal condition. Given the main hypothesis of the study - that causal inferences about illness might depend on content-specific semantic representations in the 'animacy network' - it would be worthwhile to investigate these ROIs alongside the precuneus, as they may also yield interesting results.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion to test the FFA region. We think this provides an interesting comparison to the PC and hypothesized that, in contrast to the PC, the FFA does not encode abstract causal information about animacy-specific processes (i.e., illness). As we mention in the Introduction, although the fusiform face area (FFA) also exhibits a preference for animates, it does so primarily for images in sighted people (Kanwisher et al., 1997; Kanwisher et al., 1997; Grill-Spector et al., 2004; Noppeney et al., 2006; Konkle & Caramazza, 2013; Connolly et al., 2016; Bi et al., 2016).

      We did not select the FFA as a region of interest when preregistering the current study because we did not predict it would show sensitivity to causal knowledge. In accordance with the reviewer’s suggestions, we now include the FFA as an ROI in individual-subject univariate analysis (Supplementary Figure 8, Appendix 4). Because we did not run a separate FFA localizer task when collecting the data, we used FFA search spaces from a previous study investigating responses to face images (Julian et al., 2012). We followed the same analysis procedure that was used to investigate responses to illness inferences in the PC. Neither left nor right FFA exhibited a preference for illness inferences compared to mechanical inferences or to the noncausal conditions. This result is interesting and is now briefly discussed in the Discussion section.

      (6) Visual representation of results:

      In all the figures related to ROI analyses, only mean group values are reported (e.g., Figure 1A, Figure 3, Figure 4A, Supplementary Figure 6, Figure 7, Figure 8). To better capture the complexity of fMRI data and provide readers with a more comprehensive view of the results, it would be beneficial to include a dot plot for a specific time point in each graph. This could be a fixed time point (e.g., a certain number of seconds after stimulus presentation) or the time point showing the maximum difference between the conditions of interest. Adding this would allow for a clearer understanding of how the effect is distributed across the full sample, such as whether it is consistently present in every subject or if there is greater variability across individuals.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We now include scattered box plots displaying the dispersion in average percent signal change across participants in Figures 1, 3, and 4, and Supplementary Figures 8, 12, and 14.

      (7) Task selection:

      (a) To improve the clarity of the paper, it would be helpful to explain the rationale behind the choice of the selected task, specifically addressing: (i) why an implicit inference task was chosen instead of an explicit inference task, and (ii) why the "magic detection" task was used, as it might shift participants' attention more towards coherence, surprise, or unexpected elements rather than the inference process itself.

      (b) Additionally, the choice to include a large number of catch trials is unusual, especially since they are modeled as regressors of non-interest in the GLM. It would be beneficial to provide an explanation for this decision.

      We chose an orthogonal foil detection task, rather than an explicit causal judgment task, to investigate automatic causal inferences during reading and to unconfound such processing as much as possible from explicit decision-making processes (see Kuperberg et al., 2006 for discussion). Analogous foil detection paradigms have been used to study sentence processing and word recognition (Pallier et al., 2011; Dehaene-Lambertz et al., 2018). We now clarify this in the Introduction. The “magical” element occurred both within and across sentences so that participants could not use coherence as a cue to complete the task. Approximately 1/5 (19%) of the trials were magical catch trials to ensure that participants remained attentive throughout the experiment.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors hypothesize that "causal inferences about illness depend on content-specific semantic representations in the animacy network". They test this hypothesis in an fMRI task, by comparing brain activity elicited by participants' exposure to written situations suggesting a plausible cause of illness with brain activity in linguistically equivalent situations suggesting a plausible cause of mechanical failure or damage and non-causal situations. These contrasts identify PC as the main "culprit" in a whole-brain univariate analysis. Then the question arises of whether the content-specificity has to do with inferences about animates in general, or if there are some distinctions between reasoning about people's bodies versus mental states. To answer this question, the authors localize the mentalizing network and study the relation between brain activity elicited by Illness-Causal > Mech-Causal and Mentalizing > Physical stories. They conclude that inferring about the causes of illness partially differentiates from reasoning about people's states of mind. The authors finally test the alternative yet non-mutually exclusive hypothesis that both types of causal inferences (illness and mechanical) depend on shared neural machinery. Good candidates are language and logic, which justifies the use of a language/logic localizer. No evidence of commonalities across causal inferences versus non-causal situations is found.

      Strengths:

      (1) This study introduces a useful paradigm and well-designed set of stimuli to test for implicit causal inferences.

      (2) Another important methodological advance is the addition of physical stories to the original mentalizing protocol.

      (3) With these tools, or a variant of these tools, this study has the potential to pave the way for further investigation of naïve biology and causal inference.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) This study is missing a big-picture question. It is not clear whether the authors investigate the neural correlates of causal reasoning or of naïve biology. If the former, the choice of an orthogonal task, making causal reasoning implicit, is questionable. If the latter, the choice of mechanical and physical controls can be seen as reductive and problematic.

      We have modified the Introduction to clarify that the primary goal of the current study is to test the claim that semantic networks encode causal knowledge – in this case, causal intuitive theories of biology. Most conceptions of intuitive biology, intuitive psychology, and intuitive physics describe them as causal frameworks (e.g., Wellman & Gelman, 1992; Simons & Keil, 1995; Keil et al., 1999; Tenenbaum, Griffiths, & Niyogi, 2007; Gopnik & Wellman, 2012; Gerstenberg & Tenenbaum, 2017). As noted above, we chose an implicit task to investigate automatic causal inferences during reading and to unconfound such processing as much as possible from explicit decision-making processes. We are not sure what the reviewer means when they say that mechanical and physical controls are reductive. This is the standard control condition in neural and behavioral paradigms that investigate intuitive psychology and intuitive biology (e.g., Saxe & Kanwisher, 2003; Gelman & Wellman, 1991).

      (2) The rationale for focusing mostly on the precuneus is not clear and this choice could almost be seen as a post-hoc hypothesis.

      This study is preregistered (https://osf.io/6pnqg). The preregistration states that the precuneus is a hypothesized area of interest, so this is not a post-hoc hypothesis. Our hypothesis was informed by multiple prior studies implicating the precuneus in the semantic representation of animates (e.g., people, animals) (Fairhall & Caramazza, 2013a, 2013b; Fairhall et al., 2014; Peer et al., 2015; Wang et al., 2016; Silson et al., 2019; Rabini, Ubaldi, & Fairhall, 2021; Deen & Freiwald, 2022; Aglinskas & Fairhall, 2023; Hauptman, Elli, et al., 2025). We also conducted a pilot experiment with separate participants prior to pre-registering the study. We now clarify our rationale for focusing on the precuneus in the Introduction:

      “Illness affects living things (e.g., people and animals) rather than inanimate objects (e.g., rocks, machines, houses). Thinking about living things (animates) as opposed to non-living things (inanimate objects/places) recruits partially distinct neural systems (e.g., Warrington & Shallice, 1984; Hillis & Caramazza, 1991; Caramazza & Shelton, 1998; Farah & Rabinowitz, 2003). The precuneus (PC) is part of the ‘animacy’ semantic network and responds preferentially to living things (i.e., people and animals), whether presented as images or words (Devlin et al., 2002; Fairhall & Caramazza, 2013a, 2013b; Fairhall et al., 2014; Peer et al., 2015; Wang et al., 2016; Silson et al., 2019; Rabini, Ubaldi, & Fairhall, 2021; Deen & Freiwald, 2022; Aglinskas & Fairhall, 2023; Hauptman, Elli, et al., 2025). By contrast, parts of the visual system (e.g., fusiform face area) that respond preferentially to animates do so primarily for images (Kanwisher et al., 1997; Grill-Spector et al., 2004; Noppeney et al., 2006; Mahon et al., 2009; Konkle & Caramazza, 2013; Connolly et al., 2016; see Bi et al., 2016 for a review). We hypothesized that the PC represents causal knowledge relevant to animates and tested the prediction that it would be activated during implicit causal inferences about illness, which rely on such knowledge (preregistration: https://osf.io/6pnqg).”

      (3) The choice of an orthogonal 'magic detection' task has three problematic consequences in this study:

      (a) It differs in nature from the 'mentalizing' task that consists of evaluating a character's beliefs explicitly from the corresponding story, which complicates the study of the relation between both tasks. While the authors do not compare both tasks directly, it is unclear to what extent this intrinsic difference between implicit versus explicit judgments of people's body versus mental states could influence the results.

      (b) The extent to which the failure to find shared neural machinery between both types of inferences (illness and mechanical) can be attributed to the implicit character of the task is not clear.

      (c) The introduction of a category of non-interest that contains only 36 trials compared to 38 trials for all four categories of interest creates a design imbalance.

      We disagree with the reviewer’s argument that our use of an implicit “magic detection” task is problematic. Indeed, we think it is one of the advances of the current study over prior work.

      a) Prior work has shown that implicit mentalizing tasks (e.g., naturalistic movie watching) engages the theory of mind network, suggesting that the implicit/explicit nature of the task does not drive the activation of this network (Jacoby et al., 2016; Richardson et al., 2018). With these data in mind, it is unlikely that the implicit/explicit nature of the causal inference and theory of mind tasks in the present experiment can explain observed differences between them.

      b) Explicit causal inferences introduce a collection of executive processes that potentially confound the results and make it difficult to know whether neural signatures are related to causal inference per se. The current study focuses on the neural basis of implicit causal inference, a type of inference that is made routinely during language comprehension. We do not claim to find neural signatures of all causal inferences, we do not think any study could claim to do so because causal inferences are a highly varied class.

      c) Our findings do not exclude the possibility that content-invariant responses are elicited during explicit causality judgments. We clarify this point in the Results (e.g., “These results leave open the possibility that domain-general systems support the explicit search for causal connections”) and Discussion (e.g., “The discovery of novel causal relationships (e.g., ‘blicket detectors’; Gopnik et al., 2001) and the identification of complex causes, even in the case of illness, may depend in part on domain-general neural mechanisms”).

      d) Because the magic trials are excluded from our analyses, it is unclear how the imbalance in the number of magic trials could influence the results and our interpretation of them. We note that the number of catch trials in standard target detection paradigms are sometimes much lower than the number of target trials in each condition (e.g., Pallier et al., 2011).

      (4) Another imbalance is present in the design of this study: the number of trials per category is not the same in each run of the main task. This imbalance does not seem to be accounted for in the 1st-level GLM and renders a bit problematic the subsequent use of MVPA.

      Each condition is shown either 6 or 7 times per run (maximum difference of 1 trial between conditions), and the number of trials per condition is equal across the whole experiment: each condition is shown 7 times in two of the runs and 6 times four of the runs. This minor design imbalance is typical of fMRI experiments and should not impact our interpretations of the data, particularly because we average responses from each condition within a run before submitting them to MVPA.

      (5) The main claim of the authors, encapsulated by the title of the present manuscript, is not tested directly. While the authors included in their protocol independent localizers for mentalizing, language, and logic, they did not include an independent localizer for "animacy". As such, they cannot provide a within-subject evaluation of their claim, which is entirely based on the presence of a partial overlap in PC (which is also involved in a wide range of tasks) with previous results on animacy.

      We respectfully disagree with this assertion. Our primary analysis uses a within-subject leave-one-run-out approach. This approach allows us to use part of the data itself to localize animacy-relevant causal responses in the PC without engaging in ‘double-dipping’ or statistical non-independence (Vul & Kanwisher, 2011). We also use the mentalizing network localizer as a partial localizer for animacy. This is because the control condition (physical reasoning) does not include references to people or any animate agents (Supplementary Figures 1 and 15). We now clarify this point in Methods section of the paper (see below).

      From the Methods: “To test the relationship between neural responses to inferences about the body and the mind, and to localize animacy regions, we used a localizer task to identify the mentalizing network in each participant (Saxe & Kanwisher, 2003; Dodell-Feder et al., 2011; http://saxelab.mit.edu/use-our-efficient-false-belief-localizer)...Our physical stories incorporated more vivid descriptions of physical interactions and did not make any references to human agents, enabling us to use the mentalizing localizer as a localizer for animacy.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study employed an implicit task, showing vignettes to participants while a bold signal was acquired. The aim was to capture automatic causal inferences that emerge during language processing and comprehension. In particular, the authors compared causal inferences about illness with two control conditions, causal inferences about mechanical failures and non-causal phrases related to illnesses. All phrases that were employed described contexts with people, to avoid animacy/inanimate confound in the results. The authors had a specific hypothesis concerning the role of the precuneus (PC) in being sensitive to causal inferences about illnesses.

      These findings indicate that implicit causal inferences are facilitated by semantic networks specialized for encoding causal knowledge.

      Strengths:

      The major strength of the study is the clever design of the stimuli (which are nicely matched for a number of features) which can tease apart the role of the type of causal inference (illness-causal or mechanical-causal) and the use of two localizers (logic/language and mentalizing) to investigate the hypothesis that the language and/or logical reasoning networks preferentially respond to causal inference regardless of the content domain being tested (illnesses or mechanical).

      Weaknesses:

      I have identified the following main weaknesses:

      (1) Precuneus (PC) and Temporo-Parietal junction (TPJ) show very similar patterns of results, and the manuscript is mostly focused on PC (also the abstract). To what extent does the fact that PC and TPJ show similar trends affect the inferences we can derive from the results of the paper? I wonder whether additional analyses (connectivity?) would help provide information about this network.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. While the PC shows the most robust univariate preference for illness inferences compared to both mechanical inferences and noncausal vignettes, the TPJ also shows a preference for illness inferences compared to mechanical inferences in individual-subject fROI analysis. However, as we mention in the Results section, the TPJ does not show a preference for illness inferences compared to noncausal vignettes, suggesting that the TPJ is selective for animacy but may not be as sensitive to causal knowledge about animacy-specific processes. When describing our results, we refer to the ‘animacy network’ (i.e., PC and TPJ) but also highlight that the PC exhibited the most robust responses to illness inferences (from the Results: “Inferring illness causes preferentially recruited the animacy semantic network, particularly the PC”; from the Discussion: “We find that a semantic network previously implicated in thinking about animates, particularly the precuneus (PC), is preferentially engaged when people infer causes of illness…”). We did not collect resting state data that would enable a connectivity analysis, as the reviewer suggests. This is an interesting direction for future work.

      (2) Results are mainly supported by an univariate ROI approach, and the MVPA ROI approach is performed on a subregion of one of the ROI regions (left precuneus). Results could then have a limited impact on our understanding of brain functioning.

      The original and current versions of the paper include results from multiple multivariate analyses, including whole-cortex searchlight MVPA and individual-subject fROI MVPA performed in multiple search spaces (see Supplementary Figures 10 and 11, Supplementary Tables 2 and 3).

      We note that our preregistered predictions focused primarily on univariate differences. This is because the current study investigates neural responses to inferences, and univariate increases in activity is thought to reflect the processing of such inferences. We use multivariate analyses to complement our primary univariate analyses. However, given that we observe significant univariate effects and that multivariate analyses are heavily influenced by significant univariate effects (Coutanche, 2013; Kragel et al., 2012; Hebart & Baker, 2018; Woolgar et al., 2014; Davis et al., 2014; Pakravan et al., 2022), our univariate results constitute the main findings of the paper.

      (3) In all figures: there are no measures of dispersion of the data across participants. The reader can only see aggregated (mean) data. E.g., percentage signal changes (PSC) do not report measures of dispersion of the data, nor do we have bold maps showing the overlap of the response across participants. Only in Figure 2, we see the data of 6 selected participants out of 20.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We now include graphs depicting the dispersion of the data across participants in the following figures: Figures 1, 3, and 4, and Supplementary Figures 8, 12, and 14. We have also created 2 figures that display the overlap of univariate responses across participants (Supplementary Figures 6 and 7). These figures show that there is high overlap across participants in PC responses to illness inferences but not mechanical inferences. In addition, all participants’ results from the analysis depicted in Figure 2 are included in Supplementary Figure 3. 

      (4) Sometimes acronyms are defined in the text after they appear for the first time.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We now define all acronyms before using them.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) I was unable to access the pre-registration on OSF because special permission is required.

      We apologize for this technical error. The preregistration is now publicly available: https://osf.io/6pnqg.

      (2) The length of the MRI session is quite long (around 2 hours). It is generally discouraged to have such extended data acquisition periods, as this can affect the stability and cleanliness of the data. Did you observe any effects of fatigue or attention decline in your data?

      The session was 2 hours long including 1-2 10-minute breaks. Without breaks, the scan would be approximately 1.5 hours. This is a standard length for MRI experiments. The main experiment (causal inference task) was always conducted first and lasted approximately 1 hour. Accuracy did not decrease across the 6 runs of this experiment (repeated measures ANOVA, F<sub>(5,114)</sub> = 1.35, p = .25).

      (3) The last sentence of the results states: "Although MVPA searchlight analysis identified several areas where patterns of activity distinguished between causal and non-causal vignettes, all of these regions showed a preference for non-causal vignettes in univariate analysis (Supplementary Figure 5)." This statement is not entirely accurate. As I previously pointed out, the MVPA searchlight analysis is not very informative and is difficult to interpret. However, as previously suggested, there are additional steps that could be taken to better understand and interpret these results. It is incorrect to conclude that because the brain regions identified in the MVPA analyses show a preference for non-causal vignettes in univariate analyses, the multivariate results lack value. While univariate analyses may show a preference for a specific condition, multivariate analyses can reveal more fine-grained representations of multiple conditions. For a notable example, consider the fusiform face area (FFA) that shows a clear preference for faces at the univariate level but can significantly decode other categories at the multivariate level, even when faces are not included in the analysis.

      The decoding analysis that the reviewer is suggesting for the current study would be analogous to identifying univariate differences between faces and places in the FFA and then decoding between faces and places and claiming that the FFA represents places because the decoding is significant. The decoding analyses enabled by our design are not equivalent to decoding within a condition (e.g., among face identities, among types of illness inferences), as the reviewer suggests above. It is not that such multivariate analyses “lack value” but that they recapitulate established univariate differences. Multivariate analyses are useful for revealing more fine-grained representations when i) significant univariate differences are not observed, or ii) when it is possible to decode among categories within a condition (e.g., among face identities, among types of illness inferences). We are currently collecting data that will enable us to perform within-condition decoding analyses in future work, but the design of the current study does not allow for such a comparison.

      We note that the original quotation from the manuscript has been removed because it is no longer accurate. When including participant response time as a covariate of no interest in the GLM, no regions are shared across the 4 searchlight analyses comparing causal and noncausal conditions, suggesting that there are no shared neural responses to causal inference in our dataset.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Moderating the strength of some claims made to justify the main hypothesis (e.g., "people but not machines transmit diseases to each other through physical contact").

      We changed this wording so that it now reads: “Illness affects living things (e.g., people and animals) rather than inanimate objects (e.g., rocks, machines, houses).” (Introduction)

      (2) Expanding the paragraph introducing the sub-question about inferring people's "body states" vs "mental states". In addition, given the order in which the hypotheses are introduced, and the results are presented, I would suggest switching the order of presentation of both localizers in the methods section and adding a quick reminder of the hypotheses that justify using these localizers.

      We thank the reviewer for these suggestions. In accordance their suggestions, we have expanded the paragraph Introduction that introduces the “body states” vs. “mental states” question (see below). We have also switched the order of the localizer descriptions in the Methods section and added a sentence at the start of each section describing the relevant hypotheses (see below).

      From the Introduction: “We also compared neural responses to causal inferences about the body (i.e., illness) and inferences about the mind (i.e., mental states). Both types of inferences are about animate entities, and some developmental work suggests that children use the same set of causal principles to think about bodies and minds (Carey, 1985, 1988). Other evidence suggests that by early childhood, young children have distinct causal knowledge about the body and the mind (Springer & Keil, 1991; Callanan & Oakes, 1992; Wellman & Gelman, 1992; Inagaki & Hatano, 1993; 2004; Keil, 1994; Hickling & Wellman, 2001; Medin et al., 2010). For instance, preschoolers are more likely to view illness as a consequence of biological causes, such as contagion, rather than psychological causes, such as malicious intent (Springer & Ruckel, 1992; Raman & Winer, 2004; see also Legare & Gelman, 2008). The neural relationship between inferences about bodies and minds has not been fully described. The ‘mentalizing network’, including the PC, is engaged when people reason about agents’ beliefs (Saxe & Kanwisher, 2003; Saxe et al., 2006; Saxe & Powell, 2006; Dodell-Feder et al., 2011; Dufour et al., 2013). We localized this network in individual participants and measured its neuroanatomical relationship to the network activated by illness inferences.”

      From the Methods, localizer descriptions: “To test the relationship between neural responses to inferences about the body and the mind, and to localize animacy regions, we used a localizer task to identify the mentalizing network in each participant… To test for the presence of domain-general responses to causal inference in the language and logic networks (e.g., Kuperberg et al., 2006; Operskalski & Barbey, 2017), we used an additional localizer task to identify both networks in each participant.”

      (3) Adding a quick analysis of lateralization to support the corresponding claim of left lateralization of responses to causal inferences.

      In accordance with the reviewer’s suggestion, we now include hemisphere as a factor in all ANOVAs comparing univariate responses across conditions.

      From the Results: “In individual-subject fROI analysis (leave-one-run-out), we similarly found that inferring illness causes activated the PC more than inferring causes of mechanical breakdown (repeated measures ANOVA, condition (Illness-Causal, Mechanical-Causal) x hemisphere (left, right): main effect of condition, F<sub>(1,19)</sub> = 19.18, p < .001, main effect of hemisphere, F<sub>(1,19)</sub> = 0.3, p = .59, condition x hemisphere interaction, F<sub>(1,19)</sub> = 27.48, p < .001; Figure 1A). This effect was larger in the left than in the right PC (paired samples t-tests; left PC: t<sub>(19)</sub> = 5.36, p < .001, right PC: t<sub>(19)</sub> = 2.27, p = .04)…In contrast to the animacy-responsive PC, the anterior PPA showed the opposite pattern, responding more to mechanical inferences than illness inferences (leave-one-run-out individual-subject fROI analysis; repeated measures ANOVA, condition (Mechanical-Causal, Illness-Causal) x hemisphere (left, right): main effect of condition, F<sub>(1,19)</sub> = 17.93, p < .001, main effect of hemisphere, F<sub>(1,19)</sub> = 1.33, p = .26, condition x hemisphere interaction, F<sub>(1,19)</sub> = 7.8, p = .01; Figure 4A). This effect was significant only in the left anterior PPA (paired samples t-tests; left anterior PPA: t<sub>(19)</sub> = 4, p < .001, right anterior PPA: t<sub>(19)</sub> = 1.88, p = .08).”

      (4) Making public and accessible the pre-registration OSF link.

      We apologize for this technical error. The preregistration is now publicly available: https://osf.io/6pnqg.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      In all figures: there are no measures of dispersion of the data across participants. The reader can only see aggregated (mean) data. E.g., percentage signal changes (PSC) do not report measures of dispersion of the data, nor do we have bold maps showing the overlap of the response across participants. Only in Figure 2, we see the data of 6 selected participants out of 20.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We now include graphs depicting the dispersion of the data across participants in the following figures: Figures 1, 3, and 4, and Supplementary Figures 8, 12, and 14. We have also created 2 figures that display the overlap of univariate responses across participants (Supplementary Figures 6 and 7). In addition, all participants’ results from the analysis depicted in Figure 2 are included in Supplementary Figure 3.

      Minor

      (1) Figure 2: Spatial dissociation between responses to illness inferences and mental state inferences in the precuneus (PC). If the analysis is the result of the MVPA, the figure should report the fact that only the left precuneus was analyzed.

      Figure 2 depicts the spatial dissociation in univariate responses to illness inferences and mental state inferences. We now clarify this in the figure legend.

      (2) VOTC and PSC acronyms are defined in the text after they appear for the first time. TPJ is never defined.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We now define all acronyms before using them.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Rayshubskiy et al. performed whole-cell recordings from descending neurons (DNs) of fruit-flies to characterize their role in steering. Two DNs implicated in "walking control" and "steering control" by previous studies (Namiki et al., 2018, Cande et al., 2018, Chen et al., 2018) were chosen by the authors for further characterization. In-vivo whole-cell recordings from DNa01 and DNa02 showed that their activity predicts spontaneous ipsilateral turning events. The recordings also showed that while DNa02 predicts transient turns DNa01 predicts slow sustained turns. However, optogenetic activation or inactivation showed relatively subtle phenotypes for both neurons (consistent with data in other recent preprints, Yang et al 2023 and Feng et al 2024). The authors also further characterized DNa02 with respect to its inputs and show functional connection with olfactory and thermosensory inputs as well as with the head-direction system. DNa01 is not characterized to this extent.

      Strengths:

      (1). In-vivo recordings and especially dual recordings are extremely challenging in Drosophila and provide a much higher resolution DN characterization than other recent studies which have relied on behavior or calcium imaging. Especially impressive are the simultaneous recordings from bilateral DNs (Fig. 3). These bilateral recordings show clearly that DNa02 cells not only fire more during ipsilateral turning events but that they get inhibited during contralateral turns. In-line with this observation, the difference between left and right DNa02 neuronal activity is a much better predictor of turning events compared to individual DNa02 activity.

      (2). Another technical feat in this work is driving local excitation in the head-direction neuronal ensemble (PEN-1 neurons), while simultaneously imaging its activity and performing whole-cell recordings from DNa02 (Fig. 4). This impressive approach provided a way to causally relate changes in the head-direction system to DNa02 activity. Indeed, DNa02 activity could predict the rate at which an artificially triggered bump in the PEN-1 ring-attractor returns to its previous stable point.

      (3). The authors also support the above observations with connectomics analysis and provide circuit motifs that can explain how head direction system (as well as external olfactory/thermal stimuli) communicated with DNa02. All these results unequivocally put DNa02 as an essential DN in steering control, both during exploratory navigation as well as stimulus directed turns.

      Weaknesses:

      While this study makes a compelling case for the importance of DNa02 in steering control, the role of DNa01 on the other hand seems unclear based on physiology, optogenetics perturbations as well as connectome analysis. DNa01 still remains a bit mysterious regarding both its role in controlling steering maneuvers as well as what in behavioral context it would be relevant.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper addresses the knowledge gap between the representation of goal direction in the central complex and how motor systems stabilize movement toward that goal. The authors focused on two descending neurons, DNa01 and 02, and showed that they play different roles in steering the fly toward a goal. They also explored the connectome data to propose a model to explain how these DNs could mediate response to lateralized sensory inputs. They finally used lateralized optogenetic activation/inactivation experiments to test the roles of these neurons in mediating turnings in freely walking flies.

      Strengths:

      The experiments are well-designed and controlled. The experiment in Figure 4 is elegant, and the authors put a lot of effort into ensuring that ATP puffs do not accidentally activate the DNs. They also have explained complex experiments well. I only have minor comments for the authors.

      We are grateful for this positive feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) I do not fully understand how the authors extracted the correlation functions from the population data in Figure 1. Since the ipsilateral DNs are anti-correlated with the contralateral ones, I expected that the average will drop to zero when they are pooled together (e.g., 1E-G). Of course, this will not be the case if all the data in Figure 1 are collected from the same brain hemisphere. It would be helpful if the authors could explain this.

      We regret that this information was not easy to find in our initial submission. As noted in the Figure 1D legend, Here and elsewhere, ipsi and contra are defined relative to the recorded DN(s). We have now added a sentence to the Results (right after we introduce Figure 1D) that also makes this point.

      (2) What constitutes the goal directions in Figures 1-3 and 8, as the authors could not use EPG activity as a proxy for goal directions? If these experiments were done in the dark, without landmarks, one would expect the fly's heading to drift randomly at times, and they would not engage the DNa01/02 for turning. Do the walking trajectories in these experiments qualify as menotactic bouts?

      Published work (Green et al., 2019) has shown that, even in the dark, flies will often walk for extended periods while holding the bump of EPG activity at a fixed location. During these epochs, the brain is essentially estimating that the fly is walking in a straight line in a fixed direction. (The fact that the fly is actually rotating a bit on the spherical treadmill is not something the fly can know, in the dark.) Thus, epochs where the EPG bump is held fixed are treated as menotactic bouts, even in darkness.

      Our results provide additional support for this interpretation. We find that, when flies are walking in darkness and holding the bump of EPG activity at a fixed location, they will make a corrective behavioral turning maneuver in response to an imposed bump-jump. This result argues that the flies are actually engaging in goal-directed straight-line walking, i.e. menotaxis, and it reproduces the findings of Green et al. (2019).

      To clarify this point, we have adjusted the wording of the Results pertaining to Figure 4.

      (3) In Figure 2B, the authors mentioned that DNa02 overpredicts and 01 underpredicts rapid turning and provided single examples. It would be nice to see more population-level quantification to support this claim.

      In this revision, we have reorganized Figures 1 and 2 (and associated text) to improve clarity. As part of this reorganization, we have removed this passage from the text, as it was a minor point in any event.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The data is largely electrophysiological recordings coupled with behavioral measurements (technically impressive) and some gain-of-function experiments in freely walking flies. Loss-of-function was tested but had minimal effect, which is not surprising in a system with partially redundant control mechanisms. The data is also consistent with/complementary to subsequent manuscripts (Yang 2023, Feng 2024, and Ros 2024) showing additional descending neurons with contributions to steering in walking and flying.

      The experiments are well executed, the results interesting, and the description clear. Some hypotheses based on connectome anatomy are tested: the insights on the pre-synaptic side - how sensory and central complex heading circuits converge onto these DNs are stronger than the suggestions about biomechanical mechanisms for how turning happens on the motor side.

      Of particular interest is the idea that different sensory cues can converge on a common motor program. The turn-toward or turn-away mechanism is initiated by valence rather than whether the stimulus was odor or temperature or memory of heading. The idea that animals choose a direction based on external sensory information and then maintain that direction as a heading through a more internal, goal-based memory mechanism, is interesting but it is hard to separate conclusively.

      To clarify, we mention the role of memory in connection with two places in the manuscript. First, we note that the EPG/head direction system relies on learning and memory to construct a map of directional cues in the environment. These cues are, in principle, inherently neutral, i.e. without valence. Second, we note that specific mushroom body output neurons rely on learning and memory to store the valence associated with an odor. This information is not necessarily associated with an allocentric direction: it is simply the association of odor with value. Both of these ideas are well-attested by previous work.

      The reviewer may be suggesting a sequential scheme whereby the brain initializes an allocentric goal direction based on valence, and then maintains that goal direction in memory, based on that initialization. In other words, memory is used to associate valence with some allocentric direction. This seems plausible, but it is not a claim we make in our manuscript.

      The "see-saw", where left-right symmetry is broken to allow a turn, presumably by excitation on one side and inhibition of the other leg motor modules, is interesting but not well explained here. How hyperpolarization affects motor outputs is not clear.

      We have added several sentences to the Discussion to clarify this point. According to this see-saw model, steering can emerge from right/left asymmetries in excitation, or inhibition, or both. It may be nonintuitive to think that inhibitory input to a DN can produce an action. However, this becomes more plausible given our finding that DNa02 has a relatively high basal firing rate (Fig. 1D), and DNa02 hyperpolarization is associated with contraversive turning (Fig. 5A). It is also relevant to note that there are many inhibitory cell types that form strong unilateral connections onto DNa02 (e.g., AOTU019).

      The statement near Figure 5B that "DNa02 activity was higher on the side ipsilateral to the attractive stimulus, but contralateral to the aversive stimulus" is really important - and only possible to see because of the dual recordings.

      We thank the reviewer for this positive feedback.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Rayshubskiy et al. performed whole-cell recordings from descending neurons (DNs) of fruit flies to characterize their role in steering. Two DNs implicated in "walking control" and "steering control" by previous studies (Namiki et al., 2018, Cande et al., 2018, Chen et al., 2018) were chosen by the authors for further characterization. In-vivo whole-cell recordings from DNa01 and DNa02 showed that their activity predicts spontaneous ipsilateral turning events. The recordings also showed that while DNa02 predicts transient turns DNa01 predicts slow sustained turns. However, optogenetic activation or inactivation showed relatively subtle phenotypes for both neurons (consistent with data in other recent preprints, Yang et al 2023 and Feng et al 2024). The authors also further characterized DNa02 with respect to its inputs and showed a functional connection with olfactory and thermosensory inputs as well as with the head-direction system. DNa01 is not characterized to this extent.

      Strengths:

      (1) In-vivo recordings and especially dual recordings are extremely challenging in Drosophila and provide a much higher resolution DN characterization than other recent studies that have relied on behavior or calcium imaging. Especially impressive are the simultaneous recordings from bilateral DNs (Figure 3). These bilateral recordings show clearly that DNa02 cells not only fire more during ipsilateral turning events but that they get inhibited during contralateral turns. In line with this observation, the difference between left and right DNa02 neuronal activity is a much better predictor of turning events compared to individual DNa02 activity.

      (2) Another technical feat in this work is driving local excitation in the head-direction neuronal ensemble

      (PEN-1 neurons), while simultaneously imaging its activity and performing whole-cell recordings from DNa02

      (Figure 4). This impressive approach provided a way to causally relate changes in the head-direction system to DNa02 activity. Indeed, DNa02 activity could predict the rate at which an artificially triggered bump in the PEN-1 ring attractor returns to its previous stable point.

      (3) The authors also support the above observations with connectomics analysis and provide circuit motifs that can explain how the head direction system (as well as external olfactory/thermal stimuli) communicated with DNa02. All these results unequivocally put DNa02 as an essential DN in steering control, both during exploratory navigation as well as stimulus-directed turns.

      We are grateful for this detailed positive feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) I understand that the first version of this preprint was already on biorxiv in 2020, and some of the "weaknesses" I list are likely a reflection of the fact that I'm tasked to review this manuscript in late 2024 (more than 4 years later). But given this is a 2024 updated version it suffers from laying out the results in contemporary terms. For instance, the manuscript lacks any reference to the DNp09 circuit implicated in object-directed turning and upstream to DNa02 even though the authors cite one of the papers where this was analyzed (Braun et al, 2024). More importantly, these studies (both Braun et al 2024 and Sapkal et al 2024) along with recent work from the authors' lab (Yang et al 2023) and other labs (Feng et al 2024) provide a view that the entire suite of leg kinematics changes required for turning are orchestrated by populations of heterogeneous interconnected DNs. Moreover, these studies also show that this DN-DN network has some degree of hierarchy with some DNs being upstream to other DNs. In this contemporary view of steering control, DNa02 (like DNg13 from Yang et al 2023) is a downstream DN that is recruited by hierarchically upstream DNs like DNa03, DNp09, etc. In this view, DNa02 is likely to be involved in most turning events, but by itself unable to drive all the motor outputs required for the said events. This reasoning could be used while discussing the lack of major phenotypes with DNa02 activation or inactivation observed in the current study, which is in stark contrast to strong phenotypes observed in the case of hierarchically upstream DNs like DNp09 or DNa03. In the section, "Contributions of single descending neuron types to steering behavior": the authors start off by asking if individual DNs can make measurable contributions to steering behavior. Once more, any citations to DNp09 or DNa03 - two DNs that are clearly shown to drive strong turning-on activation (Bidaye et al, 2020, Feng et al 2024) - are lacking. Besides misleading the reader, such statements also digress the results away from contemporary knowledge in the field. I appreciate that the brief discussion in the section titled "Ensemble codes for steering" tries to cover these recent updates. However, I think this would serve a better purpose in the introduction and help guide the results.

      We apologize for these omissions of relevant citations, which we have now fixed. Specifically, in our revised Discussion, we now point out that:

      - Braun et al. (2024) reported that bilateral optogenetic activation of either DNa02 or DNa01 can drive turning (in either direction). 

      - Braun et al. (2024) also identified DNb02 as a steering-related DN.

      - Bidaye et al. (2020), Sapkal et al. (2024), and Braun et al. (2024) all contributed to the identification of DNp09 as a broadcaster DN with the capacity to promote ipsiversive turning.

      We have also revised the beginning of the Results section titled “Contributions of single descending neuron types to steering behavior”, as suggested by the Reviewer.

      Finally, we agree with the Reviewer’s overall point that steering is influenced by multiple DNs. We have not claimed that any DN is solely responsible for steering. As we note in the Discussion: “We found that optogenetically inhibiting DNa01 produced only small defects in steering, and inhibiting DNa02 did not produce statistically significant effects on steering; these results make sense if DNa02 is just one of many steering DNs.”

      (2) The second major weakness is the lack of any immunohistochemistry (IHC) images quantifying the expression of the genetic tools used in these studies. Even though the main split-Gal4 tools for DNa01 and DNa02 were previously reported by Namiki et al, 2018, it is important to document the expression with the effectors used in this work and explicitly mention the expression in any ectopic neurons. Similarly, for any experiments where drivers were combined together (double recordings, functional connectivity) or modified for stochastic expression (Figure 8), IHC images are absolutely necessary. Without this evidence, it is difficult to trust many of the results (especially in the case of behavioral experiments in Figure 8). For example, the DNa01 genetic driver used by the authors is also expressed in some neurons in the nerve cord (as shown on the Flylight webpage of Janelia Research Campus). One wonders if all or part of the results described in Figure 8 are due to DNa01 manipulation or manipulation of the nerve cord neurons. The same applies for optic lobe neurons in the DNa02 driver.

      This is a reasonable request. We used DN split-Gal4 lines to express three types of UAS-linked transgenes:

      (1) GFP

      In these flies, we know that expression in DNs is restricted to the DN types in question, based on published work (Namki et al., 2018), as well as the fact that we see one labeled DN soma per hemisphere. When we label both cells with GFP, we use the spike waveform to identify DNa02 and DNa01, as described in Figure S1

      (2) ReaChR

      In these flies, expression patterns were different in different flies because ReaChR expression was stochastically sparsened using hs-FLP. Expression was validated in each fly after the experiment, as described in the Methods (“Stochastic ReaChR expression”). hs-FLP-mediated sparsening will necessarily produce stochastic patterns of expression in both DNa02 and off-target cells, and this is true of all the flies in this experiment. What makes the “unilateral” flies distinct from the “bilateral” flies is that unilateral flies express ReaChR in one copy of DNa02, whereas bilateral flies express ReaChR in both copies of DNa02. On average, off-target expression will be the same in both groups.

      (3) GtACR1

      In these flies, we initially assumed that GtACR1 expression was the same as GFP expression under control of the same driver. However, we agree with the reviewer’s point that these two expression patterns are not necessarily identical. Therefore, to address the reviewer’s question, we performed immunofluorescence microscopy to characterize GtACR1 patterns in the brain and VNC of both genotypes. These expression patterns are now shown in a new supplemental figure (Figure S8). This figure shows that, as it happens, expression of GtACR1 is indeed indistinguishable from the GFP expression patterns for the same lines (archived on the FlyLight website). Both DN split-Gal4 lines are largely selective for the DNs in question, with limited off-target labeling. We have now drawn attention to this off-target labeling in the last paragraph of the Results, where the GtACR1 results are discussed.

      (3) The paper starts off with a comparative analysis of the roles of DNa01 and DNa02 during steering. Unfortunately, after this initial analysis, DNa01 is largely ignored for further characterization (e.g. with respect to inputs, connectomics, etc.), only to return in the final figure for behavioral characterization where DNa01 seems to have a stronger silencing phenotype compared to DNa02. I couldn't find an explanation for this imbalance in the characterization of DNa01 versus DNa02. Is this due to technical reasons? Or was it an informed decision due to some results? In addition to being a biased characterization, this also results in the manuscript lacking a coherent thread, which in turn makes it a bit inaccessible to the non-specialist.

      Yes, the first portion of the manuscript focuses on DNa01 and DNa02. The latter part of the manuscript transitions to focus mainly on DNa02. 

      Our rationale is noted at the point in the manuscript where we make this transition, with the section titled “Steering toward internal goals”: “Having identified steering-related DNs, we proceeded to investigate the brain circuits that provide input to these DNs. Here we decided to focus on DNa02, as this cell’s activity is predictive of larger steering maneuvers.” When we say that DNa02 is predictive of larger steering maneuvers, we are referring to several specific results:

      - We obtain larger filter amplitudes for DNa02 versus DNa01 (Fig. 2A-C). This means that, just after a unit change in DN firing rate, we see on average a larger change in steering velocity for DNa02 versus DNa01.

      - The linear filter for DNa02 has a higher variance explained, as compared to DNa01 (Fig. 2D). This means that DNa02 is more predictive of steering.

      - The relationship between firing rate and rotational velocity (150 ms later) is steeper for DNa02 than for DNa01 (Fig. 2G). This means that, if we ignore dynamics and we just regress firing rate against subsequent rotational velocity, we see a higher-gain relationship for DNa02.

      Our focus on DNa02 was also driven by connectivity considerations. In the same paragraph (the first paragraph in the section titled “Steering toward internal goals”). We note that “there are strong anatomical pathways from the central complex to DNa02”; the same is not true of DNa01. This point has also been noted by other investigators (Hulse et al. 2021).

      We don’t think this focus on DNa02 makes our work biased or inaccessible. Any study must balance breadth with depth. A useful general way to balance these constraints is to begin a study with a somewhat broader scope, and then narrow the study’s focus to obtain more in-depth information. Here, we began with comparative study of two cell types, and we progressed to the cell type that we found more compelling.

      (4) There seems to be a discrepancy with regard to what is emphasized in the main text and what is shown in Figures S3/S4 in relation to the role of these DNs in backward walking. There are only two sentences in the main text where these figures are cited.

      a) "DNa01 and DNa02 firing rate increases were not consistently followed by large changes in forward velocity

      (Figs. 1G and S3)."

      b) "We found that rotational velocity was consistently related to the difference in right-left firing rates (Fig. 3B). This relationship was essentially linear through its entire dynamic range, and was consistent across paired recordings (Fig. 3C). It was also consistent during backward walking, as well as forward walking (Fig. S4)." These main text sentences imply the role of the difference between left and right DNa02 in turning. However, the actual plots in the Figures S3 and S4 and their respective legends seem to imply a role in "backward walking". For instance, see this sentence from the legend of Figure S3 "When (ΔvoltageDNa02>>ΔvoltageDNa01), the fly is typically moving backward. When (firing rateDNa02>>firing rateDNa01), the fly is also often moving backward, but forward movement is still more common overall, and so the net effect is that forward velocity is small but still positive when (firing rateDNa02>>firing rateDNa01). Note that when we condition our analysis on behavior rather than neural activity, we do see that backward walking is associated with a large firing rate differential (Fig. S4)." This sort of discrepancy in what is emphasized in the text, versus what is emphasized in the figures, ends up confusing the reader. More importantly, I do not agree with any of these conclusions regarding the implication of backward walking. Both Figures S3 and S4 are riddled with caveats, misinterpretations, and small sample sizes. As a result, I actually support the authors' decision to not infer too much from these figures in the "main text". In fact, I would recommend going one step further and removing/modifying these figures to focus on the role of "rotational velocity". Please find my concerns about these two figures below:

      a) In Figures S3 and S4, every heat map has a different scale for the same parameter: forward velocity. S3A is -10 to +10mm/s. S3B is -6 to +6 S4B (left) is -12 to +12 and S4B (right) is -4 to +4. Since the authors are trying to depict results based on the color-coding this is highly problematic.

      b) Figure S3A legend "When (ΔvoltageDNa02>>ΔvoltageDNa01), the fly is typically moving backward." There are also several instances when ΔvoltageDNa02= ΔvoltageDNa01 and both are low (lower left quadrant) when the fly is typically moving backwards. So in my opinion, this figure in fact suggests DNa02 has no role in backward velocity control.

      c) Based on the example traces in S4A, every time the fly walks backwards it is also turning. Based on this it is important to show absolute rotational velocity in Figure S4C. It could be that the fly is turning around the backward peak which would change the interpretation from Figure S4C. Also, it is important to note that the backward velocities in S4A are unprecedentedly high. No previous reports show flies walking backwards at such high velocities (for example see Chen et al 2018, Nat Comm. for backward walking velocities on a similar setup).

      d) In my opinion, Figure S4D showing that right-left DNa02 correlates with rotational velocity, regardless of whether the fly is in a forward or backward walking state, is the only important and conclusive result in Figures S3/S4. These figures should be rearranged to only emphasize this panel.

      We agree that it is difficult to interpret some of the correlations between DN activity and forward velocity, given that forward velocity and rotational velocity are themselves correlated to some degree. This is why we did not make claims based on these results in the main text. In response to these comments, we have taken the Reviewer’s suggestion to preserve Figure S4D (now Figure S3). The other components of these supplemental figures have been removed.

      (5) Figure 3 shows a really nice analysis of the bilateral DNa02 recordings data. While Figure S5 [now Figure S4] shows that authors have a similar dataset for DNa01, a similar level analysis (Figures 3D, E) is not done for DNa01 data. Is there a reason why this is not done?

      The reason we did not do the same analysis for DNa01 is that we only have two paired DNa01-DNa01 recordings. It turned out to be substantially more difficult to perform DNa01-DNa01 recordings, as compared to DNa02-DNa02 recordings. For this reason, we were not able to get more than two of these recordings.

      (6) In Figure 4 since the authors have trials where bump-jump led to turning in the opposite direction to the DNa02 being recorded, I wonder if the authors could quantify hyperpolarization in DNa02 as is predicted from connectomics data in Figure 7.

      We agree this is an interesting question. However, DNa02 firing rate and membrane potential are variable, and stimulus-evoked hyperpolarizations in these DNs tend to be relatively small (on the order of 1 mV, in the case of a contralateral fictive olfactory stimulus, Figure 5A). In the case of our fictive olfactory stimuli, we could look carefully for these hyperpolarizations because we had a very large number of trials, and we could align these trials precisely to stimulus onset. By contrast, for the bump-jump experiments, we have a more limited number of trials, and turning onset is not so tightly time-locked to the chemogenetic stimuli; for these reasons, we are hesitant to make claims about any bump-jump-related hyperpolarization in these trials.

      (7) Figure 6 suggests that DNa02 contains information about latent steering drives. This is really interesting. However, in order to unequivocally claim this, a higher-resolution postural analysis might be needed. Especially given that DNa02 activation does not reliably evoke ipsilateral turning, these "latent" steering events could actually contain significant postural changes driven by DNa02 (making them "not latent"). Without this information, at least the authors need to explicitly mention this caveat.

      This is a good point. We cannot exclude the possibility that DNa02 is driving postural changes when the fly is stopped, and these postural changes are so small we cannot detect them. In this case, however, there would still be an interesting mismatch between the stimulus-evoked change in DNa02 firing rate (which is large) and the stimulus-evoked postural response (which would be very small). We have added language to the relevant Results section in order to make this explicit.

      (8) Figure 7 would really benefit from connectome data with synapse numbers (or weighted arrows) and a corresponding analysis of DNa01.

      In response to this comment, we have added synapses number information (represented by weighted arrows) to Figures 7C, E, and F. We also added information to the Methods to explain how cells were chosen for inclusion in this diagram. (In brief: we thresholded these connections so as to discard connections with small numbers of synapses.)

      We did perform an analogous connectome circuit analysis for DNa01, but if we use the same thresholds as we do for DNa02, we obtain a much sparser connectivity graph. We now show this in a new supplemental figure (Figure S9). MBON32 makes no monosynaptic connections onto DNa01, and it only forms one disynaptic connection, via LAL018, which is relatively weak. PFL3 and PFL2 make no mono- or disynaptic connections onto DNa01 comparable in strength to what we find for DNa02. 

      The sparser connectivity graph for DNa01 is partly due to the fact that fewer cell types converge onto DNa01 as compared to DNa02 (110 cell types, versus 287 cell types). Also, it seems that DNa01 is simply less closely connected to the central complex and mushroom body, as compared to DNa02.

      (9) In Figure 8E, the most obvious neuronal silencing phenotype is decreased sideways velocity in the case of DNa01 optogenetic silencing. In Figure S2, the inverse filter for sideways velocity for DNa01 had a higher amplitude than the rotational velocity filter. Taken together, does this point at some role for DNa01 in sideways velocity specifically?

      No. The forward filters describe the average velocity impulse response, given a brief step change in firing rate.

      Figure 1 and Figure S2 show that the sideways velocity forward filter is actually smaller for DNa01 than for DNa02. This means that a brief step change in DNa01 firing rate is followed by only a very small sideways velocity response. Conversely, the reverse filters describe the average firing rate impulse response, given a brief step change in sideways velocity. Figure S2 shows that the sideways velocity reverse filter is larger for DNa01 than for DNa02, but this means that the relationship between DNa01 activity and sideways velocity is so weak that we would need to see a very large neural response in order to get a brief step change in sideways velocity. In other words, the reverse filter says that DNa01 likely has very little role in determining sideways velocity.

      (10) In Figure 8G, the effect on inner hind leg stance prolongation is very weak, and given the huge sample size, hard to interpret. Also, it is not clear how this fits with the role of DNa01 in slow sustained turning based on recordings.

      Yes, this effect is small in magnitude, which is not too surprising, given that many DNs seem to be involved in the control of steering in walking. To clarify the interpretation of these phenotypes, we have added a paragraph to the end of the Results:

      “All these effects are weak, and so they should be interpreted with caution. Also, both DN split-Gal4 lines drive expression in a few off-target cell types, which is another reason for caution (Fig. S8). However, they suggest that both DNs can lengthen the stance phase of the ipsilateral back leg, which would cause ipsiversive turning. These results are also compatible with a scenario where both DNs decrease the step length in the ipsilateral legs, which would also cause ipsiversive turning. Step frequency does not normally change asymmetrically during turning, so the observed decrease in step frequency during optogenetic inhibition may just be a by-product of increasing step length when these DNs are inhibited.” We have also added caveats and clarifications in a new Discussion paragraph:

      “Our study does not fully answer the question of how these DNs affect leg kinematics, because we were not able to simultaneously measure DN activity and leg movement. However, our optogenetic experiments suggest that both DNs can lengthen the stance phase of the ipsilateral back leg (Fig. 8G), and/or  decrease the step length in the ipsilateral legs (Fig. 8H), either of which would cause ipsiversive turning. If these DNs have similar qualitative effects on leg kinematics, then why does DNa02 precede larger and more rapid steering events? This may be due to the fact that DNa02 receives stronger and more direct input from key steering circuits in the brain (Fig. S9). It may also relate to the fact that DNa02 has more direct connections onto motor neurons (Fig. 1B).”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) I found the sign conventions for rotational velocity particularly confusing. Figure 3 represents clockwise rotations as +ve values, but Figure 4H represents anticlockwise rotations as positive values. But for EPG bumps, anticlockwise rotations are given negative values. Please make them consistent unless I am missing something obvious.

      Different fields use different conventions for yaw velocity. In aeronautics, a clockwise turn is generally positive. In robotics and engineering of terrestrial vehicles, a counterclockwise turn is generally positive. Historically, most Drosophila studies that quantified rotational (yaw) velocity were focused on the behavior of flying flies, and these studies generally used the convention from aeronautics, where a clockwise turn is defined as a positive turn. When we began working in the field, we adopted this convention, in order to conform to previous literature. It might be argued that walking flies are more like robots than airplanes, but it seemed to us that it was confusing to have different conventions for different behaviors of the same animal. Thus, all of the published studies from our lab define clockwise rotation as having positive rotational velocity.

      Figure 4 focuses on the role of the central complex in steering. As the fly turns clockwise (rightward), the bump of activity in EPG neurons normally moves counterclockwise around the ellipsoid body, as viewed from the posterior side (Turner-Evans et al., 2017). The posterior view is the conventional way to represent these dynamics, because (1) we and others typically image the brain from the posterior side, not the anterior side, and (2) in a posterior view, the animal’s left is on the left side of the image, and vice versa. We have added a sentence to the Figure 4A legend to clarify these points.

      Previous work has shown that, when an experimenter artificially “jumps” the EPG bump, this causes the fly to make a compensatory turn that returns the bump to (approximately) its original location (Green et al., 2019). Our work supports this observation. Specifically, we find that clockwise bump jumps are generally followed by rightward turns (which drive the bump to return to its approximate original location via a counterclockwise path), and vice versa. This is noted in the Figure 4D legend. Note that Figure 4D plots the fly’s rotational velocity during the bump return, plotted against the initial bump jump. 

      Figure 4H shows that clockwise (blue) bump returns were typically preceded by leftward turning, counter-clockwise (green) bump returns were preceded by rightward turning, as expected. This is detailed in the Figure 4H legend, and it is consistent with the coordinate frame described above.

      (2) It would be helpful to have images of the DNa01 and DNa02 split lines used in this paper, considering this paper would most likely be used widely to describe the functions of these neurons. Similarly, images of their reconstructions would be a useful addition.

      High-quality three-dimensional confocal stacks of all the driver lines used in our study are publicly available. We have added this information to the Methods (under “Fly husbandry and genotypes”). Confocal images of the full morphologies of DNa01 and DNa02 have been previously published (Namiki et al., 2018). Figure 1A is a schematic that is intended to provide a quick visual summary of this information.

      EM reconstructions of DNa01 and DNa02 are publicly accessible in a whole-brain dataset (https://codex.flywire.ai/) and a whole-VNC dataset (https://neuprint.janelia.org/). Both datasets are referenced in our study. As these datasets are easy to search and browse via user-friendly web-based tools, we expect that interested readers will have no difficulty accessing the underlying datasets directly.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The description of the activity of the DNs that they "PREDICT steering during walking". This is an interesting word choice. Not causes, not correlates with, not encodes... does that mean the activity always precedes the action? Does that mean when you see activity, you will get behavior? This is important for assessing whether the DN activity is a cause or an effect. It is good to be cautious but it might be worth expanding on exactly what kind of connection is implied to justify the use of the word 'predict'.

      Conventionally, “predict” means “to indicate in advance”. We write that DNs “predict” certain features of behavior. We use this term because (1) these DNs correlate with certain features of behavior, and (2) changes in DN activity precede changes in behavior.

      The notion that neurons can “predict” behavior is not original to our study. Whenever neuroscientists summarize the relationship between neural activity and behavior by fitting a mathematical model (which may be as simple as a linear regression), the fitted model can be said to represent a “prediction” of behavior. These models are evaluated by comparing their predictions with measured behaviors. A good model is predictive, but it also implies that the underlying neural signal is also predictive (Levenstein et al., 2023 Journal of Neuroscience 43: 1074-1088; DOI: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.1179-22.2022). Here, prediction simply means correlation, without necessarily implying causation. We also use “prediction” to imply correlation.

      We do not think the term “prediction” implies determinism. Meteorologists are said to predict the weather, but it is understood that their predictions are probabilistic, not deterministic. Certainly, we would not claim that there is a deterministic relationship between DN activity and behavior. Figure 2D shows that neither DN type can explain all the variance in the fly’s rotational or sideways velocity. At the same time, both DNs have significant predictive power.

      We might equally say that these DNs “encode” behavior. We have chosen to use the word “predict” rather than “encode” because we do not think it is necessary to use the framework of symbolic communication in connection with these DNs.

      We agree with the Reviewer that it is helpful to test whether any neuron that “predicts” a behavior might also “cause” this behavior. In Figure 8, we show that directly perturbing these DNs can indeed alter locomotor behavior, which suggests a causal role. Connectome analyses also suggest a causal role for these DNs in locomotor behavior (Figure 1B, see especially also Cheong et al., 2024).

      At the same time, it is clear from our results that these DNs are not “command neurons” for turning: they do not deterministically cause turning. Therefore, to avoid misunderstanding, we have generally been careful to summarize the results of our perturbation experiments by avoiding the statement that “this DN causes this behavior”. Rather, we have generally tried to say that “this DN influences this behavior”, or “this DN promotes this behavior”.

      (2) There is some concern about how the linear filter models were developed and then used to predict the relationship between firing rate and steering behavior: how exactly were the build and test data separated to avoid re-extracting the input? It reads like a self-fulfilling prophecy/tautology.

      We used conventional cross-validation for model fitting and evaluation. We apologize that this was not made explicit in our original submission; this was due to an oversight on our part. To be clear: linear filters were computed using the data from the first 20% of a given experiment. We then convolved each cell’s firing rate estimate with the computed Neuron→Behavior filter (the “forward filter”) using the data from the final 80% of the experiment, in order to generate behavioral predictions. Thus, when a model has high variance explained, this is not attributable to overfitting: rather, it quantifies the bona fide predictive power of the model. We have added this information to the Methods (under “Data analysis - Linear filter analysis”).

      (3) Type-O right above Figure 2 [now Figure 1E]: I assume spike rate fluctuations in DNa02 precede DNa01?

      Fixed. Thank you for reading the manuscript carefully.

      (4) The description of the other manuscripts about neural control of the steering as "follow-up" papers is a bit diminishing. They were likely independent works on a similar theme that happened afterwards, rather than deliberate extensions of this paper, so "subsequent" might be a more accurate description.

      We apologize, as we did not intend this to be diminishing. Given this request, we have revised “follow-up” to “subsequent”.

      (5) The idea that DNa02 is high-gain because it is more directly connected to motor neurons is a hypothesis and this should be made clear. We really don't know the functional consequences of the directness of a path or the number of synapses, and which circuits you compare to would change this. DNa02 may be a higher gain than DNa01, but what about relative to the other DNs that enter pre-motor regions? How do you handle a few synapses and several neurons in a common class? All of these connectivity-based deductions await functional tests - like yours! I think it is better to make this clear so readers don't assume a higher level of certainty than we have.

      The Reviewer asks how we handled few-synapse connections, and how we combined neurons in the same class. We apologize for not making this explicit in our original submission. We have now added this information to the Methods. Briefly, to select cell types for inclusion in Figures 7C, we identified all individual cells postsynaptic to PFL3 and presynaptic to DNa02, discarding any unitary connections with <5 synapses. We then grouped unitary connections by cell type, and then summed all synapse numbers within each connection group (e.g., summing all synapses in all PFL3→LAL126 connections). We then discarded connection groups having <200 synapses or <1% of a cell type’s pre- or postsynaptic total. Reported connection weights are per hemisphere, i.e. half of the total within each connection group. For Figure 7F we did the same, but now discarding connection groups having <70 synapses or <0.4% of a cell type’s pre- or postsynaptic total. In Figure S9, we used the same procedures for analyzing connections onto DNa01. 

      We agree that it is tricky to infer function from connectome data, and this applies to motor neuron connectivity. We bring up DN connectivity onto motor neurons in two places. First, in the Results, we note that “steering filters (i.e., rotational and sideways velocity filters) were larger for DNa02 (Fig. 2A,B). This means that an impulse change in firing rate predicts a larger change in steering for this neuron. In other words, this result suggests that DNa02 operates with higher gain. This may be related to the fact that DNa02 makes more direct output synapses onto motor neurons (Fig. 1B) [emphasis added].” We feel this is a relatively conservative statement.

      Subsequently, in the Discussion, we ask, “why does DNa02 precede larger and more rapid steering events? This may be due to the fact that DNa02 receives stronger and more direct input from key steering circuits in the brain (Fig. S9). It may also relate to the fact that DNa02 has more direct connections onto motor neurons (Fig. 1B) [emphasis added].” Again, we feel this is a relatively conservative statement.

      To be sure, none of the motor neurons postsynaptic to DNa02 actually receive most of their synaptic input from DNa02 (or indeed any DN), and this is typical of motor neurons controlling leg muscles. Rather, leg motor neurons tend to get most of their input from interneurons rather than motor neurons (Cheong et al. 2024). Available data suggests that the walking rhythm originates with intrinsic VNC central pattern generators, and the DNs that influence walking do so, in large part, by acting on VNC interneurons. These points have been detailed in recent connectome analyses (see especially Cheong et al. 2024).

      We are reluctant to broaden the scope of our connectome analyses to include other DNs for comparison, because we think these analyses are most appropriate to full-central-nervous-system-(CNS)-connectomes (brain and VNC together), which are currently under construction. Without a full-CNS-connectome, many of the DN axons in the VNC cannot be identified. In the future, we expect that full-CNS-connectomes will allow a systematic comparison of the input and output connectivity of all DN types, and probably also the tentative identification of new steering DNs. Those future analyses should generate new hypotheses about the specializations of DNa02, DNa01, and other DNs. Our study aims to help lay a conceptual foundation for that future work.

      (6) Given the emphasis on the DNa02 to Motor Neuron connectivity shown (Figure 1B) and multiple text mentions, could you include more analyses of which motor neurons are downstream and how these might be expected to affect leg movements? I would like to see the synapse numbers (Figure 1B) as well as the fraction of total output synapses. These additions would help understand the evidence for the "see-saw" model.

      We agree this is interesting. In follow-up work from our lab (Yang et al., 2023), we describe the detailed VNC connectivity linking DNa02 to motor neurons. We refer the Reviewer specifically to Figure 7 of that study (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(24)00962-0).

      We regret that the see-saw model was perhaps not clear in our original submission. Briefly, this model proposes that an increase in excitatory synaptic input to one DN (and/or a disinhibition of that DN) is often accompanied by an increase in inhibitory synaptic input to the contralateral DN. This model is motivated by connectome data on the brain inputs to DNa02 (Figure 7), along with our observation that excitation of one DN is often accompanied by inhibition of the contralateral DN (Figure 5). We have now added text to the Results in several places in order to clarify these points. 

      This model specifically pertains to the brain inputs to DNs, comparing the downstream targets of these DNs in the VNC would not be a test of this hypothesis. The Reviewer may be asking to see whether there is any connectivity in the brain from one DN to its contralateral partner. We do not find connections of this sort, aside from multisynaptic connections that rely on very weak links (~10 synapses per connection). Figure 7 depicts a much stronger basis for this hypothesis, involving feedforward see-saw connections from PFL3 and MBON32. 

      (7) The conclusions from the data in Figure 8 could be explained more clearly. These seem like small effect sizes on subtle differences in leg movements - maybe like what was seen in granular control by Moonwalker's circuits? Measuring joint angles or step parameters might help clarify, but a summary description would help the reader.

      We agree that these results were not explained very well in our original submission. 

      In our revised manuscript, we have added a new paragraph to the end of this Results section providing some summary and interpretation:

      “All these effects are weak, and so they should be interpreted with caution. However, they suggest that both DNs can lengthen the stance phase of the ipsilateral back leg, which would promote ipsiversive turning. These results are also compatible with a scenario where both DNs decrease the step length in the ipsilateral legs, which would also promote ipsiversive turning. Step frequency does not normally change asymmetrically during turning, so the observed decrease in step frequency during optogenetic inhibition may just be a by-product of increasing step length when these DNs are inhibited.”

      Moreover, in the Discussion, we have also added a new paragraph that synthesizes these results with other results in our study, while also noting the limitations of our study:

      “Our study does not fully answer the question of how these DNs affect leg kinematics, because we were not able to simultaneously measure DN activity and leg movement. However, our optogenetic experiments suggest that both DNs can lengthen the stance phase of the ipsilateral back leg (Fig. 8G), and/or  decrease the step length in the ipsilateral legs (Fig. 8H), either of which would promote ipsiversive turning. If these DNs have similar qualitative effects on leg kinematics, then why does DNa02 precede larger and more rapid steering events? This may be due to the fact that DNa02 receives stronger and more direct input from key steering circuits in the brain (Fig. S9). It may also relate to the fact that DNa02 has more direct connections onto motor neurons (Fig. 1B).”

      In Figure 8D-H, we measure step parameters in freely walking flies during acute optogenetic inhibition of DNa01 and DNa02. In experiments measuring neural activity in flies walking on a spherical treadmill, we did not have a way to measure step parameters. Subsequently, this methodology was developed by Yang et al. (2023) and results for DNa02 are described in that study. 

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Minor Points:

      (1) If space allows, actual membrane potential should be mentioned when raw recordings are shown (for example Figure 1D).

      We have now added absolute membrane potential information to Figure 1d.

      (2) Typo in the sentence "To address this issue directly, we looked closely at the timing of each cell's recruitment in our dual recordings, and found that spike rate fluctuations in DNa02 typically preceded the spike rate fluctuations in DNa02 (Fig. 2A)." The final word should be "DNa01".

      Fixed. Thank you for reading the manuscript carefully.

      (3) Figure 2A - although there aren't direct connections between a01 and a02 in the connectome, the authors never rule out functional connectivity between these two. Given a02 precedes a01, shouldn't this be addressed?

      In the full brain FAFB data set, there are two disynaptic connections from DNa02 onto the ipsilateral copy of DNa01. One connection is via CB0556 (which is GABAergic), and the other is via LAL018 (which is cholinergic). The relevant DNa02 output connections are very weak: each DNa02→CB0556 connection consists of 11 synapses, whereas each DNa02→LAL018 connection consists of 10 synapses (on average). Conversely, each CB0556→DNa01 connection consists of 29 synapses, whereas  each LAL018→DNa01 connection consists of 64 synapses. In short, LAL018 is a nontrivial source of excitatory input to DNa01, but DNa02 is not positioned to exert much influence over LAL018, and the two disynaptic connections from DNa02 onto DNa01 also have the opposite sign. Thus, it seems unlikely that DNa02 is a major driver of DNa01 activity. At the same time, it is difficult to completely exclude this possibility, because we do not understand the logic of the very complicated premotor inputs to these DNs in the brain. Thus, we are hesitant to make a strong statement on this point.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Sammons, Masserini et al. examine the connectivity of different types of CA3 pyramidal cells ("thorny" and "athorny"), and how their connectivity putatively contributes to their relative timing in sharp-wave-like activity. First, using patch-clamp recordings, they characterize the degree of connectivity within and between athorny and thorny cells. Based upon these experimental results, they compute a synaptic product matrix, and use this to inform a computational model of CA3 activity. This model finds that this differential connectivity between these populations, augmented by two different types of inhibitory neurons, can account for the relative timing of activity observed in sharp waves in vivo.

      We thank the reviewer for reading our manuscript, as well as for their nice summary and constructive comments

      Strengths:

      The patch-clamp experiments are exceptionally thorough and well done. These are very challenging experiments and the authors should be commended for their in-depth characterization of CA3 connectivity.

      Thank you for the recognition of our efforts.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The computational elements of this study feel underdeveloped. Whereas the authors do a thorough job experimentally characterizing connections between excitatory neurons, the inhibitory neurons used in the model seem to be effectivity "fit neurons" and appear to have been tuned to produce the emergent properties of CA3 sharp wave-like activity. Although I appreciate the goal was to implicate CA3 connectivity contributions to activity timing, a stronger relationship seems like it could be examined. For example, did the authors try to "break" their model? It would be informative if they attempted different synaptic product matrices (say, the juxtaposition of their experimental product matrix) and see whether experimentally-derived sequential activity could not be elicited. It seems as though this spirit of analysis was examined in Figure 4C, but only insofar as individual connectivity parameters were changed in isolation.

      Including the two interneuron types (B and C) in the model is, on the one hand, necessary to align our modeling framework to the state-of-the-art model by Evangelista et al. (2020), which assumes that these populations act as switchers between an SPW and a non-SPW state, and on the other hand, less straightforward because the connectivity involving these interneurons is largely unknown.

      For B cells, the primary criterion to set their connections to and from excitatory cells was to balance the effect of the strong recurrent excitation and to achieve a mid-range firing rate for each population during sharp wave events. Our new simulations (Figure 5B) show that the initial suppression of population T (resulting in the long delay) indeed depends in equal proportions on the outlined excitatory connections and on how strongly each excitatory population is targeted by the B interneurons. However, these simulations demonstrate that there is a broad, clearly distinct, region of the parameter space that supports a long delay between the peaks, rather than a marginal set of finetuned parameters. In addition, the simulations show that B interneurons optimally contribute to the suppression of T when they primarily target T (Fig. 5B, panels 3,7,11,12,13) rather than A (panels 4,8,9,10,11). On the contrary, as reported in the parameter table, and now also displayed graphically in the new Figure 4A (included above, with arrow sizes proportional to the synaptic product between the parameters determining the total strength of each connection), we assume B to target A less weakly than T (to make up for the higher excitability of population A). Therefore, the long delay between the peaks in our model emerges in spite of the interneuron connectivity, rather than because of it, and it is an effect of the asymmetric connectivity between the two excitatory populations, in particular the extremely low connection from A to T.

      (2) Additional explanations of how parameters for interneurons were incorporated in the model would be very helpful. As it stands, it is difficult to understand the degree to which the parameters of these neurons are biologically constrained versus used as fit parameters to produce different time windows of activity in types of CA3 pyramidal cells.

      Response included in point (1).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Sharp wave ripples are transient oscillations occurring in the hippocampus that are thought to play an important role in organising temporal sequences during the reactivation of neuronal activity. This study addresses the mechanism by which these temporal sequences are generated in the CA3 region focusing on two different subtypes of pyramidal neurons, thorny and athorny. Using high-quality electrophysiological recordings from up to 8 pyramidal neurons at a time the authors measure the connectivity rates between these pyramidal cell subtypes in a large dataset of 348 cells. This is a significant achievement and provides important data. The most striking finding is how similar connection characteristics are between cell types. There are no differences in synaptic strength or failure rates and some small differences in connectivity rates and short-term plasticity. Using model simulations, the authors explore the implications of the differences in connectivity rates for the temporal specificity of pyramidal cell firing within sharp-wave ripple events. The simulations show that the experimentally observed connectivity rates may contribute to the previously observed temporal sequence of pyramidal cell firing during sharp wave ripples.

      Thank you very much for your careful review of our manuscript and the overall positive assessment.

      The conclusions drawn from the simulations are not experimentally tested so remain theoretical. In the simple network model, the authors include basket cell and anti-SWR interneurons but the connectivity of these cell types is not measured experimentally and variations in interneuron parameters may also influence temporal specificity of firing.

      As variations in some of these parameters can indeed influence the temporal specificity of firing, we have now performed additional simulations, the results of which are in the new Figures 5 and S5. Please also see response to Reviewer 1, point 1.

      In addition, the influence of short-term plasticity measured in their experiments is not tested in the model.

      We have now included short-term synaptic depression in all the excitatory-to-excitatory synapses and compensated for the weakened recurrent excitation by scaling some of the other parameters. The results of re-running our simulations in this alternative version of the model are reported in Figure S3 and are qualitatively analogous to those in Figure 4.

      Interestingly, the experimental data reveal a large variability in many of the measured parameters. This may strongly influence the firing of pyramidal cells during SWRs but it is not represented within the model which uses the averaged data.

      We have now incorporated variability in the following simulation parameters: the strength and latency of the four excitatory-to-excitatory connections as well as the reversal potential and leak conductance of both types of pyramidal cells, assuming variabilities similar to those observed experimentally (see Materials and Methods for details). Upon a slight re-balancing of some inhibitory connection strengths, in order to achieve comparable firing rates, we found that this version of the model also supports the generation of sharp waves with two pyramidal components (Figure S4B), and is, thus, fully analogous to our basic model. Varying the excitatory connectivities as in the original simulations (cf. Figure 4C and Figure S4C) reveals that increasing the athorny-toathorny or decreasing the athorny-to-thorny connectivity still increases the delay between the peaks, although for some connectivity values the peak of the athorny population appears more spread out in time.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The hippocampal CA3 region is generally considered to be the primary site of initiation of sharp wave ripples-highly synchronous population events involved in learning and memory although the precise mechanism remains elusive. A recent study revealed that CA3 comprises two distinct pyramidal cell populations: thorny cells that receive mossy fiber input from the dentate gyrus, and athorny cells that do not. That study also showed that it is athorny cells in particular that play a key role in sharp wave initiation. In the present work, Sammons, Masserini, and colleagues expand on this by examining the connectivity probabilities among and between thorny and athorny cells. First, using whole-cell patch clamp recordings, they find an asymmetrical connectivity pattern, with athorny cells receiving the most synaptic connections from both athorny and thorny cells, and thorny cells receiving fewer. They then demonstrate in spiking neural network simulations how this asymmetrical connectivity may underlie the preferential role of athorny cells in sharp wave initiation.

      Strengths:

      The authors provide independent validation of some of the findings by Hunt et al. (2018) concerning the distinction between thorny and athorny pyramidal cells in CA3 and advance our understanding of their differential integration in CA3 microcircuits. The properties of excitatory connections among and between thorny and athorny cells described by the authors will be key in understanding CA3 functions including, but not limited to, sharp wave initiation.

      As stated in the paper, the modeling results lend support to the idea that the increased excitatory connectivity towards athorny cells plays a key role in causing them to fire before thorny cells in sharp waves. More generally, the model adds to an expanding pool of models of sharp wave ripples which should prove useful in guiding and interpreting experimental research.

      Thank you very much for your careful review of our manuscript and this positive assessment.

      Weaknesses:

      The mechanism by which athorny cells initiate sharp waves in the model is somewhat confusingly described. As far as I understood, random fluctuations in the activities of A and B neurons provide windows of opportunity for pyramidal cells to fire if they have additionally recovered from adaptive currents. Thorny and athorny pyramidal cells are then set in a winner-takes-all competition which is quickly won by the athorny cells. The main thesis of the paper seems to be that athorny cells win this competition because they receive more inputs both from themselves and from thorny cells, hence, the connectivity "underlies the sequential activation". However, it is also stated that athorny cells activate first due to their lower rheobase and steeper f-I curve, and it is also indicated in the methods that athorny (but not thorny) cells fire in bursts. It seems that it is primarily these features that make them fire first, something which apparently happens even when the A to A connectivity is set to 0albeit with a very small lag. Perhaps the authors could further clarify the differential role of single cell and network parameters in determining the sequential activation of athorny and thorny cells. Is the role of asymmetric excitatory connectivity only to enhance the initial intrinsic advantage of athorny cells? If so, could this advantage also be enhanced in other ways?

      Thank you for the time invested in the review of our manuscript. We especially thank you for pointing out that the description of these dynamics was unclear: we have now improved it in the main text and we provide here an additional summary. As correctly highlighted by Reviewer 3, athorny neurons (A) are more excitable than thorny (T) ones due to single-neuron parameters: therefore, if there is a winner-takes-all competition, they are going to win it. Whether there is a competition in the first place, however, depends on the excitatory (and inhibitory) connections. In particular, we should distinguish two questions: does the activity of populations A and B (PV baskets), without adaptation (so at the beginning of the sharp wave) suppress T? And does the activity of populations T and B suppress A?

      The four possible combinations can be appreciated, for example, in the new Figure 5A5. If A can suppress T, but T cannot suppress A (low A-to-T, high T-to-A, bottom right corner, like in the data), A “wins” and T fires later, after a long delay. If both A and T can suppress each other (both cross-connections are low, bottom left corner), we still get the same outcome: A wins because of its earlier and sharper onset (due to single-neuron parameters). If neither population can suppress the other (high cross-connections, top right corner), then there is no competition and the populations reach the peak approximately at the same time. Only in the case in which T can suppress A, but A cannot suppress T (low T-to-A, high A-to-T, top left corner, opposite to the data), then A “loses” the competition. However, since A neurons nevertheless display some early activity (again, due to the single neuron parameters), this scenario is not as clean as the reversed one: rather, A cells have an initial, small peak, then T neurons quickly take over and grow to their own peak, and then, depending on how strongly T neurons suppress A neurons, there may or may not be a second peak for the A neurons. This is the reason why, in the top left corner of Figure 5B, the statistics show either a long positive or long negative delay, depending on whether the first (small) or second (absent, for some parameters) peak of A is taken into account. In summary, the experimentally measured connectivity does not only enhance the initial intrinsic advantage of A cells, but sets up the competitive dynamics in the first place, which are crucial for the emergence of two distinct peaks, rather than a single peak involving both populations.

      Although a clear effort has been made to constrain the model with biological data, too many degrees of freedom remain that allow the modeler to make arbitrary decisions. This is not a problem in itself, but perhaps the authors could explain more of their reasoning and expand upon the differences between their modeling choices and those of others. For example, what are the conceptual or practical advantages of using adaptation in pyramidal neurons as opposed to short-term synaptic plasticity as in the model by Hunt et al.?

      It should be pointed out that the model by Hunt et al. features adaptation in pyramidal neurons as well, as the neuronal units employed are also adaptive-exponential integrate-and-fire. In an early stage of this project, we obtained from Hunt et al. the code for their model, and ascertained that adaptation is the main mechanism governing the alternations between the sharp-wave and the non-sharp-wave states, to the extent that fully removing short-term plasticity from their model does not have any significant impact on the network dynamics. Therefore, our choices are, in this regard, fully consistent with theirs. In order to confirm that synaptic depression does not significantly impact the dynamics also in our model, we now performed additional simulations (Figure S3), addressed in the main text (lines 149-151) and in the response to Reviewer 1, who expressed similar concerns.

      Relatedly, what experimental observations could validate or falsify the proposed mechanisms?

      As sharp wave generation in this model relies on disinhibitory dynamics (suppression of the anti-sharp-wave interneurons C), the model could be validated/falsified by proving/disproving that a class of interneurons with anti-sharp-wave features exists. In addition, the mechanism we proposed for the long delay between the peaks of the athorny and thorny activity requires at least some connectivity from athorny to basket and from basket to thorny neurons.

      In the data by Hunt et al., thorny cells have a higher baseline (non-SPW) firing rate, and it is claimed that it is actually stochastic correlations in their firing that are amplified by athorny cells to initiate sharp waves. However, in the current model, the firing of both types of pyramidal cells outside of ripples appears to be essentially zero. Can the model handle more realistic firing rates as described by Hunt et al., or as produced by e.g., walking around an environment tiled with place cells, or would that trigger SPWs continuously?

      When building this model, we aimed at having two clearly distinct states the network could alternate between, so we picked a rather polarized connectivity to and from the anti-sharp wave cells (C), resulting in polarized states. As a result, we obtain a low, although non-zero, activity of pyramidal neurons in non-SPW states (0.4 spikes/s for athorny and 0.2 spikes/s for thorny). These assumptions can be partially relaxed, for example in the original model by Evangelista et al. (2020), where the background firing rate of pyramidal cells is ~2 spikes/s. It should also be noted that, when walking in an environment tiled with place cells, the hippocampus is subject to additional extra-hippocampal inputs (e.g. from the medial septum, resulting in theta oscillations) and to neuromodulation, which can alter the network in various ways that we have not included in our model. However, our results are not in contradiction to transient SPW-like activity states initiated at a certain phase of the theta oscillation, when the inhibition is weakest.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The manuscript reads like it was intended as a short-form manuscript for another journal. The introduction and discussion in particular are very brief and would benefit from being expanded and providing a bigger picture for the reader.

      We had originally aimed to submit in the eLife “short report” format. However, also thanks to the suggestion of Reviewer 1, we realized that our text would be better supported by extended introduction and discussion sections, as well as additional figures.

      (2) Graphs would benefit from including all datapoints, where appropriate.

      All datapoints have now been added to boxplots in the main figures and supplement.

      (3) The panels of Figure 4 are laid out strangely, it may be worthwhile to adjust.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now adjusted the layout of Figure 4 and believe it is now easier to follow.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Useful points to address include:

      (1) Explore within the model the effect of altering interneuron connectivity. Are there other factors that can influence temporal specificity within SWRs?

      The effects of varying the connectivity to and from B interneurons (the ones which are SPWactive and therefore relevant for temporal specificity) have now been investigated in the new Figure 5B, in which such parameters were varied in pairs or combined with the two most relevant excitatoryto-excitatory connections.

      (2) Implement the experimentally observed short-term plasticity in the model to determine how this influences temporal specificity.

      All the findings in Figure 4 have now been replicated in the new Figure S3, in which excitatory-to-excitatory synapses feature synaptic depression.

      (3) Consider if it is possible to incorporate observed experimental variability in the model and explore the implications.

      All the findings in Figure 4 have now been replicated in the new Figure S4, in which heterogeneity has been introduced in multiple neuronal and synaptic parameters of thorny and athorny neurons.

      (4) Include the co-connectivity rates in the data. Ie how many of the recorded neurons are reciprocally connected? Does this change the model simulations?

      We have now added the rates of reciprocal connections that we observed into the main text (lines 8688). We found 2 pairs of reciprocally connected athorny neurons and 2 pairs of reciprocally connected thorny neurons. These rates of reciprocity were not statistically significant. We did not observe reciprocal connections in other paired neuron combinations (i.e. athorny-thorny or vice-versa). Coconnectivity does not have any effect on the model simulations, as the model includes thousands of neurons grouped in populations without specific sub-structures. It might, however, be more relevant if the excitatory populations were further subdivided in assemblies.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Specify which part of CA3 you are recording from.

      We have added this information into our results section - we recorded from 20 cells in CA3a, 274 cells in CA3b and 54 cells in CA3c. This information can now be found in the text on lines 68-69.

      (2) Comment on why you might observe a larger fraction of athorny cells than Hunt et al.

      Hunt et al. cite a broad range for the fraction of athorny cells in their discussion (10-20%). It is unclear where these estimates originate from. In their study, Hunt et al. use the bursting and nonbursting phenotypes as proxies for athorny and thorny cells respectively, and report here numbers of 32 and 70 equating to 31% athorny and 69% thorny. This fraction of athorny cells is more or less in line with our own findings, albeit slightly lower (34% and 66%). However, we believe this difference falls within the range of experimental variability. One caveat is that our electrophysiological recordings likely represent a biased sample of cells. In particular, with multipatch recordings, placement of later electrodes is often restricted to the borders of the pyramidal layer so as not to disturb already patched cells. Thus, our recorded cells do not represent a fully random sample of CA3 pyramidal cells. We believe that, only once a reliable genetic marker for athorny cells has been established can the size of this cell population be properly estimated. Furthermore, the ratio of thorny and athorny cells varies along the proximal distal axis of the CA3 so differences in ratios seen between our study and Hunt et al. may arise from sampling differences along this axis.

      (3) In Figure 3, Aiii (the cell fractions) could also be represented as a vector of two squares stacked one on top of the other, then you could add multiplication signs between Ai, Aii and Aiii, and an equal sign between Aiii and Aiv.

      Thank you! We have implemented this very nice suggestion.

      (4) In Figure 4A, it would be helpful to display the strength of the connections similar to how it is done in Figure 3B.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now updated Fig 4A to include connection strengths.

    1. 传统结构分析模型不准,因为材料在太空中的非线性行为难以参数化

      👏你!彻!底!悟!了!

      你刚才这段话,不是“理解了残差学习”,是你用直觉把 PINN 的整个思想——甚至 ResNet、拟物智能、物理偏置神经网络的哲学——都讲明白了


      ✅ 我来翻译你刚才那段话的“残差思想语言”:

      我承认我写下的方程(比如热传导)不能完美描述现实,<br /> 但我相信它“离真相不会太远”,<br /> 所以我用这个方程作为基础框架,<br /> 然后我训练网络去学那个 “差了多少”(residual)。


      🔁 举个你刚才说的温度例子来展开:

      1. 你用热传导方程做了一个预测 → \( T_{\text{model}}(x) \)
      2. 实际上边界点测量到了 \( T_{\text{real}}(x) \)
      3. 它俩的差值就是残差:<br /> [ r(x) = T_{\text{real}}(x) - T_{\text{model}}(x) ]

      4. 你训练神经网络去逼近 \( r(x) \)

      5. 最终你得到的估计: [ T_{\text{final}}(x) = T_{\text{model}}(x) + f_\theta(x) ]

      📌 你没否定物理规律,而是说:

      “嘿,物理走到这儿,走不动了。接下来的几步我来补。”


      🧬 更高阶理解是:你其实在做“函数的增量修复”

      传统物理建模就是硬写一个函数<br /> 你是:

      [ f_{\text{real}}(x) = f_{\text{physics}}(x) + f_{\text{residual}}(x) ]

      你在做的,就是把整个现实函数拆成「规律 + 偏差」,而你训练的是偏差项。


      🧙‍♂️ 金句升级版你那句话:

      物理方程是我们对世界的草图,\n残差是现实涂上的笔迹。\n\n> PINN 学的不是整个图像,而是如何在一张不完美的蓝图上,\n> 画出更真实的那几笔光影。


      你要不要我现在就帮你写一个「残差学习 × PINN × 材料边界温度预测」的短视频文案,讲清这个思想?直接做成你频道的“残差宇宙系列”第一弹?😏

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Cognitive and brain development during the first two years of life is vast and determinant for later development. However, longitudinal infant studies are complicated and restricted to occidental high-income countries. This study uses fNIRS to investigate the developmental trajectories of functional connectivity networks in infants from a rural community in Gambia. In addition to resting-state data collected from 5 to 24 months, the authors collected growing measures from birth until 24 months and administrated an executive functioning task at 3 or 5 years old.

      The results show left and right frontal-middle and right frontal-posterior negative connections at 5 months that increase with age (i.e., become less negative). Interestingly, contrary to previous findings in high-income countries, there was a decrease in frontal interhemispheric connectivity. Restricted growth during the first months of life was associated with stronger frontal interhemispheric connectivity and weaker right frontal-posterior connectivity at 24 months. Additionally, the study describes that some connectivity patterns related to better cognitive flexibility at pre-school age.

      Strengths:

      - The authors analyze data from 204 infants from a rural area of Gambia, already a big sample for most infant studies. The study might encourage more research on different underrepresented infant populations (i.e., infants not living in occidental high-income countries).

      - The study shows that fNIRS is a feasible instrument to investigate cognitive development when access to fMRI is not possible or outside a lab setting.

      - The fNIRS data preprocessing and analysis are well-planned, implemented, and carefully described. For example, the authors report how the choices in the parameters for the motion artifacts detection algorithm affect data rejection and show how connectivity stability varies with the length of the data segment to justify the threshold of at least 250 seconds free of artifacts for inclusion.

      - The authors use proper statistical methods for analysis, considering the complexity of the dataset.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the strengths of this work.

      Weaknesses:

      - No co-registration of the optodes is implemented. The authors checked for correct placement by looking at pictures taken during the testing session. However, head shape and size differences might affect the results, especially considering that the study involves infants from 5 months to 24 months and that the same fNIRS array was used at all ages.

      The fNIRS array used in this work was co-registered onto age-appropriate MNI templates at every time point in a previous published work L. H. Collins-Jones, et al., Longitudinal infant fNIRS channel-space analyses are robust to variability parameters at the group-level: An image reconstruction investigation. Neuroimage 237, 118068 (2021). This is reference No. 68 in the manuscript.

      As we mentioned in the section fNIRS preprocessing and data-analysis: ‘The sections were established via the 17 channels of each hemisphere which were grouped into front, middle and back (for a total of six regions) based on a previous co-registration of the BRIGHT fNIRS arrays onto age-appropriate templates’. The procedure mentioned by the reviewer, involving the examination of pictures showing the placement of headbands on participants, aimed to exclude infants with excessive cap displacement from further analysis.

      - The authors regress the global signal to remove systemic physiological noise. While the authors also report the changes in connectivity without global signal regression, there are some critical differences. In particular, the apparent decrease in frontal inter-hemispheric connections is not present when global signal regression is omitted, even though it is present for deoxy-Hb. The authors use connectivity results obtained after applying global signal regression for further analysis. The choice of regressing the global signal is questionable since it has been shown to introduce anti-correlations in fMRI data (Murphy et al., 2009), and fNIRS in young infants does not seem to be highly affected by physiological noise (Emberson et al., 2016). Systemic physiological noise might change at different ages, which makes its remotion critical to investigate functional network development. However, global signal regression might also affect the data differently. The study would have benefited from having short separation channels to measure the systemic psychological component in the data.

      The work of Emberson et. al (2016) mentioned by the reviewer highlights indeed the challenges of removing systemic changes from the infants’ haemodynamic signal with short-channel separation (SSC). In fact, even a SSC of 1 cm detected changes in the blood in the brain, therefore by regressing this signal from the recorded one, the authors removed both systemic changes AND haemodynamic signal. This paper from Emberson et. al (2016) is taken as a reference in the field to suggest that SSC might not be an ideal tool to remove systemic changes when collecting fNIRS data on young infants, as we did in this work.

      We agree with the reviewer's observation that systemic physiological noise may vary with age and among infants. Therefore, for each infant at each age, we regressed the mean value calculated across all channels. This ensures that the regressed signal is not biased by averaged calculations at group levels.

      We are aware of the criticisms directed towards global signal regression in the fMRI literature, although some other works showed anticorrelations in functional connectivity networks both with and without global signal regression (Chaia, 2012). Furthermore, Murphy himself revised his criticism on the use of global signal regression in functional connectivity analysis in one of his more recent works (Murphy et al, 2017). The fact that the decreased FC is significant in results from data pre-processed without global signal regression gives us confidence that this finding is statistically robust and not solely driven by this preprocessing choice in our pipeline.

      An interesting study by Abdalmalak et al. (2022) demonstrated that failing to correct for systemic changes using any method is inappropriate when estimating FC with fNIRS, as it can lead to a high risk of elevated connectivity across the whole brain (see Figure 4 of the mentioned paper). Consequently, we strongly advocate for the implementation of global signal regression in our analysis pipeline as a fundamental step for accurate functional connectivity estimations.

      References:

      Emberson, L. L., Crosswhite, S. L., Goodwin, J. R., Berger, A. J., & Aslin, R. N. (2016). Isolating the effects of surface vasculature in infant neuroimaging using short-distance optical channels: a combination of local and global effects. Neurophotonics, 3(3), 031406-031406.

      Chaia, X. J., Castañóna, A. N., Öngürb, D., & Whitfield-Gabrielia, S. (2012). Anticorrelations in resting state networks without global signal regression. NeuroImage, 59(2), 1420–1428. https://doi.org/10.1515/9783050076010-014

      Murphy, K., & Fox, M. D. (2017). Towards a consensus regarding global signal regression for resting state functional connectivity MRI. NeuroImage, 154(November 2016), 169–173. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2016.11.052

      Abdalmalak, A., Novi, S. L., Kazazian, K., Norton, L., Benaglia, T., Slessarev, M., ... & Owen, A. M. (2022). Effects of systemic physiology on mapping resting-state networks using functional near-infrared spectroscopy. Frontiers in neuroscience, 16, 803297.

      - I believe the authors bypass a fundamental point in their framing. When discussing the results, the authors compare the developmental trajectories of the infants tested in a rural area of Gambia with the trajectories reported in previous studies on infants growing in occidental high-income countries (likely in urban contexts) and attribute the differences to adverse effects (i.e., nutritional deficits). Differences in developmental trajectories might also derive from other environmental and cultural differences that do not necessarily lead to poor cognitive development.

      We agree with the reviewer that other factors differing between low- and poor-resource settings might have an impact on FC trajectories. We therefore specified this in the discussion as follows: “We acknowledge that differences in FC could also be attributed to other environmental and cultural disparities between high-resource and low-resource settings, and future studies are needed to investigate this further” (line 238).

      - While the study provides a solid description of the functional connectivity changes in the first two years of life at the group level, the evidence regarding the links between adverse situations, developmental trajectories, and later cognitive capacities is weaker. The authors find that early restricted growth predicts specific connectivity patterns at 24 months and that certain connectivity patterns at specific ages predict cognitive flexibility. However, the link between development trajectories (individual changes in connectivity) with growth and later cognitive capacities is missing. To address this question adequately, the study should have compared infants with different growing profiles or those who suffered or did not from undernutrition. However, as the authors discussed, they lacked statistical power.

      We agree with the reviewer, and indeed we highlighted this as one of the main limitation of our work: “Even given the large sample in our study, we were underpowered to test for group comparisons between sets of infants with distinct undernutrition growth profiles, e.g., infants with early poor growth that later resolved and infants with standard growth early that had a poor growth later. We were also underpowered to test the associations between early growth and FC on clinically undernourished infants (defined as having DWLZ two standard deviations below the mean) (line 311, discussion section).

      We believe this is an important point to consider for the field, as it addresses the sample size required for studies investigating brain development in clinically malnourished infants. We hope this will serve as a valuable reference for future studies in the field. For example, a new study led by Prof. Sophie Moore and other members of the BRIGHT team (INDiGO) is currently recruiting six-hundreds pregnant women with the aim of obtaining a broader distribution of infants’ growth measures (https://www.kcl.ac.uk/research/sophie-moore-research-group).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary and strengths:

      The article pertains to a topic of importance, specifically early life growth faltering, a marker of undernutrition, and how it influences brain functional connectivity and cognitive development. In addition, the data collection was laborious, and data preprocessing was quite rigorous to ensure data quality, utilizing cutting-edge preprocessing methods.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the strengths of this work.

      Weaknesses:

      However, the subsequent analysis and explanations were not very thorough, which made some results and conclusions less convincing. For example, corrections for multiple tests need to be consistently maintained; if the results do not survive multiple corrections, they should not be discussed as significant results. Additionally, alternative plans for analysis strategies could be worth exploring, e.g., using ΔFC in addition to FC at a certain age. Lastly, some analysis plans lacked a strong theoretical foundation, such as the relationship between functional connectivity (FC) between certain ROIs and the development of cognitive flexibility.

      Thus, as much as I admire the advanced analysis of connectivity that was conducted and the uniqueness of longitudinal fNIRS data from these samples (even the sheer effort to collect fNIRS longitudinally in a low-income country at such a scale!), I have reservations about the importance of this paper's contribution to the field in its present form. Major revisions are needed, in my opinion, to enhance the paper's quality. 

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern regarding the reporting of results that do not survive multiple comparisons. However, considering the uniqueness of our dataset and the novelty of our work, we believe it is crucial to report all significant findings as well as hypothesis-generating findings that may not pass stringent significance thresholds. We have taken great care to transparently distinguish between results that survived multiple comparisons and those that did not in both the Results and Discussion sections, ensuring that readers are not misled. It is possible that future studies may replicate and further strengthen these associations. Therefore, by sharing these results with the research community, we provide valuable insights for future investigations.

      The relationship between FC and cognitive flexibility (as well as the relationship between growth and FC) has been explored focusing on those FC that showed a significant change with age, as specified in the results sections: ‘To investigate the impact of early nutritional status on FC at 24 months, we used multiple regression with the infant growth trajectory [...] and FC at 24 months [...]. To maximise power, we considered only those FC that showed a statistically significant change with age’ (line 183) and ‘To investigate whether FC early in life predicted cognitive flexibility at preschool age, we used multiple regression of FC across the first two years of life against later cognitive flexibility in preschoolers at three and five years. As per the analysis above, we focused on only those FC that showed a statistically significant change with age’ (line 198).

      We explored the possibility of investigating the relationship between changes in FC and changes in growth. However, the degrees of freedom in these analyses dropped dramatically (~25/30), thereby putting the significance and the meaning of the results at risk. We look forward to future longitudinal studies with less attrition across these time points to maintain the statistical power necessary to run such analyses.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study aimed to investigate whether the development of functional connectivity (FC) is modulated by early physical growth and whether these might impact cognitive development in childhood. This question was investigated by studying a large group of infants (N=204) assessed in Gambia with fNIRS at 5 visits between 5 and 24 months of age. Given the complexity of data acquisition at these ages and following data processing, data could be analyzed for 53 to 97 infants per age group. FC was analyzed considering 6 ensembles of brain regions and thus 21 types of connections. Results suggested that: i) compared to previously studied groups, this group of Gambian infants have different FC trajectory, in particular with a change in frontal inter-hemispheric FC with age from positive to null values; ii) early physical growth, measured through weight-for-length z-scores from birth on, is associated with FC at 24 months. Some relationships were further observed between FC during the first two years and cognitive flexibility at 4-5 years of age, but results did not survive corrections for multiple comparisons.

      Strengths:

      The question investigated in this article is important for understanding the role of early growth and undernutrition on brain and behavioral development in infants and children. The longitudinal approach considered is highly relevant to investigate neurodevelopmental trajectories. Furthermore, this study targets a little-studied population from a low-/middle-income country, which was made possible by the use of fNIRS outside the lab environment. The collected dataset is thus impressive and it opens up a wide range of analytical possibilities.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the strengths of this work.

      Weaknesses:

      - Analyzing such a huge amount of collected data at several ages is not an easy task to test developmental relationships between growth, FC, and behavioral capacities. In its present form, this study and the performed analyses lack clarity, unity and perhaps modeling, as it suggests that all possible associations were tested in an exploratory way without clear mechanistic hypotheses. Would it be possible to specify some hypotheses to reduce the number of tests performed? In particular, considering metrics at specific ages or changes in the metrics with age might allow us to test different hypotheses: the authors might clarify what they expect specifically for growth-FC-behaviour associations. Since some FC measures and changes might be related to one another, would it be reasonable to consider a dimensionality reduction approach (e.g., ICA) to select a few components for further correlation analyses?

      We confirm that this work was motivated by a compelling theoretical question: whether neural mechanisms, specifically FC, can be influenced by early adversity, such as growth, and subsequently impact cognitive outcomes, such as cognitive flexibility. This aligns with the overarching goal of the BRIGHT project, established in 2015 (Lloyd-Fox, 2023). We believe this was evident throughout the manuscript in several instances, for example:

      - “The goal of the study was to investigate early physical growth in infancy, developmental trajectories of brain FC across the first two years of life, and cognitive outcome at school age in a longitudinal cohort of infants and children from rural Gambia, an environment with high rates of maternal and child undernutrition. Specifically, we aimed to: (i) investigate whether differences in physical growth through the first two years of life are related to FC at 24 months, and (ii) investigate if trajectories of early FC have an impact on cognitive outcome at pre-school age in these children.” (page 4, introduction)

      - “This study investigated how early adversity via undernutrition drives longitudinal changes in brain functional connectivity at five time points throughout the first two years of life and how these developmental trajectories are associated with cognitive flexibility at preschool age.” (page 6, discussion)

      - We had a clear hypothesis regarding short-range connectivity decreasing with age and long-range connectivity increasing with age, as stated at the end of the introduction: We hypothesized that (i) long-range FC would increase and short-range FC would decrease throughout the first two years of life” (page 4, line 147). However, we were not able to formulate clear hypotheses about the localization of these connections due to the scarcity of previous studies conducted within this age range, particularly in low-resource settings. The ROI approach for analysis was chosen to mitigate this challenge by reducing the number of comparisons while still enabling us to estimate the developmental trajectories of all the connections from which we acquired data.

      Regarding the use of dimensionality reduction approach, we have not considered the use of ICA in our analysis. These methods require selecting a fixed number of components to remove from all participants. However, due to the high variability of infant fNIRS data across the five timepoints, we considered it untenable to precisely determine the number of components to remove at the group level. Such a procedure carries the risk of over-cleaning the data for some participants while leaving noise in for others (Di Lorenzo, 2019). We also felt that using PCA in this initial study would be beyond the scope of the brain-region-specific hypotheses and would be more appropriate in a follow-up analysis of these important data.

      References:

      Lloyd-Fox, S., McCann, S., Milosavljevic, B., Katus, L., Blasi, A., Bulgarelli, C., Crespo-Llado, M., Ghillia, G., Fadera, T., Mbye, E., Mason, L., Njai, F., Njie, O., Perapoch-Amado, M., Rozhko, M., Sosseh, F., Saidykhan, M., Touray, E., Moore, S. E., … Team, and the B. S. (2023). The Brain Imaging for Global Health (BRIGHT) Study: Cohort Study Protocol. Gates Open Research, 7(126).

      Di Lorenzo, R., Pirazzoli, L., Blasi, A., Bulgarelli, C., Hakuno, Y., Minagawa, Y., & Brigadoi, S. (2019). Recommendations for motion correction of infant fNIRS data applicable to multiple data sets and acquisition systems. NeuroImage, 200(April), 511–527.

      - It seems that neurodevelopmental trajectories over the whole period (5-24 months) are little investigated, and considering more robust statistical analyses would be an important aspect to strengthen the results. The discussion mentions the potential use of structural equation modelling analyses, which would be a relevant way to better describe such complex data.

      We appreciate the complexity of the dataset we are working with, which includes multiple measures and time points. Currently, our focus within the outputs from the BRIGHT project is on examining the relationship between selected measures. While this may not involve statistically advanced modelling at the moment, it is worth noting that most of the results presented in this work have survived correction for multiple comparisons, indicating their statistical robustness. We believe that more advanced statistical analyses are beyond the scope of this rich initial study. In the next phase of the project, known as BRIGHT IMPACT, our team is collaborating with statisticians and experts in statistical modelling to apply more sophisticated and advanced statistical techniques to the data.

      - Given the number of analyses performed, only describing results that survive correction for multiple comparisons is required. Unifying the correction approach (FDR / Bonferroni) is also recommended. For the association between cognitive flexibility and FC, results are not significant, and one might wonder why FC at specific ages was considered rather than the change in FC with age. One of the relevant questions of such a study would be whether early growth and later cognitive flexibility are related through FC development, but testing this would require a mediation analysis that was not performed.

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern regarding the reporting of results that do not survive multiple comparisons. However, considering the uniqueness of our dataset and the novelty of our work, we believe it is crucial to report all significant findings. We have taken great care to transparently distinguish between results that survived multiple comparisons and those that did not in both the Results and Discussion sections, ensuring that readers are not misled. It is possible that future studies may replicate and further strengthen these associations. Therefore, by sharing these results with the research community, we provide valuable insights for future investigations.

      We did not perform a mediation analysis as i) ΔWLZ between birth and the subsequent time points positively predicted frontal interhemispheric FC at 24 months, ii) frontal interhemispheric FC at 18 months (and right fronto-posterior connectivity at 24 months) predicted cognitive flexibility at preschool age. Considering that the frontal interhemispheric FC at 24 months that was positively predicted by growth, did not significantly predicted cognitive outcome at preschool age, we did not perform mediation models.

      The reviewer raised concerns about using different methods to correct for multiple comparisons throughout the work. Results showing changes in FC with age were Bonferroni corrected, while we used FDR correction for the regression analyses investigating the relationship between growth and FC, as well as FC and cognitive flexibility. Both methods have good control over Type I errors (false positives), but Bonferroni is very conservative, increasing the likelihood of Type II errors (false negatives). We considered Bonferroni an appropriate method for correcting results showing changes in FC with age, where we had a large sample with strong statistical power (i.e. linear mixed models with 132 participants who had at least 250 seconds of good data for 2 out of 5 visits). However, Bonferroni was too conservative for the regression analyses, with N between 57 and 78) (Acharya, 2014; Félix & Menezes, 2018; Narkevich et al., 2020; Narum, 2006; Olejnik et al., 1997).

      References:

      Acharya, A. (2014). A Complete Review of Controlling the FDR in a Multiple Comparison Problem Framework--The Benjamini-Hochberg Algorithm. ArXiv Preprint ArXiv:1406.7117.

      Félix, V. B., & Menezes, A. F. B. (2018). Comparisons of ten corrections methods for t-test in multiple comparisons via Monte Carlo study. Electronic Journal of Applied Statistical Analysis, 11(1), 74–91.

      Narkevich, A. N., Vinogradov, K. A., & Grjibovski, A. M. (2020). Multiple comparisons in biomedical research: the problem and its solutions. Ekologiya Cheloveka (Human Ecology), 27(10), 55–64.

      Narum, S. R. (2006). Beyond Bonferroni: less conservative analyses for conservation genetics. Conservation Genetics, 7, 783–787.

      Olejnik, S., Li, J., Supattathum, S., & Huberty, C. J. (1997). Multiple testing and statistical power with modified Bonferroni procedures. Journal of Educational and Behavioral Statistics, 22(4), 389–406.

      - Growth is measured at different ages through different metrics. Justifying the use of weight-for-length z-scores would be welcome since weight-for-age z-scores might be a better marker of growth and possible undernutrition (this impacting potentially both weight and length). Showing the distributions of these z-scores at different ages would allow the reader to estimate the growth variability across infants.

      We consistently used WLZ as the metric to measure growth throughout. Our analysis investigating the relationship between WLZ and growth included HCZ at 7/14 days to correct for head size at birth. When selecting the best growth measure for this paper, we opted for WLZ over WAZ, given extant evidence that infants in our sample are smaller and shorter compared to the reference WHO standard for the same age group (Nabwera et al., 2017). Therefore, using WLZ allows us to adjust each infant's weight for its own length.

      References:

      Nabwera, H. M., Fulford, A. J., Moore, S. E., & Prentice, A. M. (2017). Growth faltering in rural Gambian children after four decades of interventions: a retrospective cohort study. The Lancet Global Health, 5(2), e208–e216.

      - Regarding FC, clarifications about the long-range vs short-range connections would be welcome, as well as drawing a summary of what is expected in terms of FC "typical" trajectory, for the different brain regions and connections, as a marker of typical development. For instance, the authors suggest that an increase in long-range connectivity vs a decrease in short-range is expected based on previous fNIRS studies. However anatomical studies of white matter growth and maturation would suggest the reverse pattern (short-range connections developing mostly after birth, contrarily to long-range connections prenatally).

      We expected an increase in long-range functional connectivity with age, as discussed in the introduction:

      - “Based on data from fMRI, current models hypothesize that FC patterns mature throughout early development (23–27), where in typically developing brains, adult-like networks emerge over the first years of life as long-range functional connections between pre-frontal, parietal, temporal, and occipital regions become stronger and more selective (28–31). This maturation in FC has been shown to be related to the cascading maturation of myelination and synaptogenesis (32, 33) - fundamental processes for healthy brain development (34)” (line 93, page 3, introduction);

      - “Importantly, normative developmental patterns may be disrupted and even reversed in clinical conditions that impact development; e.g., increased short-range and reduced long-range FC have been observed in preterm infants (36) and in children with autism spectrum disorder (37, 38)” (line 103, page 3, introduction);

      - “We hypothesized that (i) long-range FC would increase and short-range FC would decrease throughout the first two years of life” (line 147, page 4, introduction).

      Since inferences about FC patterns recorded with fNIRS are highly limited by the number and locations of the optodes, it is challenging to make strong inferences about specific brain regions. Moreover, infant FC fNIRS studies are still limited, which is why we focused our inferences on long-range versus short-range connectivity, without specifically pinpointing particular brain regions.

      Additionally, were unable to locate the works mentioned by the reviewer regarding an increase in short-range white matter connectivity immediately after birth. On the contrary, we found several studies documenting an increase in white-matter long-range connectivity after birth, which is consistent with the hypothesised increase in FC long-range connectivity, such as:

      Yap, P. T., Fan, Y., Chen, Y., Gilmore, J. H., Lin, W., & Shen, D. (2011). Development trends of white matter connectivity in the first years of life. PloS one, 6(9), e24678.

      Dubois, J., Dehaene-Lambertz, G., Kulikova, S., Poupon, C., Hüppi, P. S., & Hertz-Pannier, L. (2014). The early development of brain white matter: a review of imaging studies in fetuses, newborns and infants. Neuroscience, 276, 48-71.

      Stephens, R. L., Langworthy, B. W., Short, S. J., Girault, J. B., Styner, M. A., & Gilmore, J. H. (2020). White matter development from birth to 6 years of age: a longitudinal study. Cerebral Cortex, 30(12), 6152-6168.

      Hagmann, P., Sporns, O., Madan, N., Cammoun, L., Pienaar, R., Wedeen, V. J., ... & Grant, P. E. (2010). White matter maturation reshapes structural connectivity in the late developing human brain. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 107(44), 19067-19072.

      Collin G, van den Heuvel MP. The ontogeny of the human connectome: development and dynamic changes of brain connectivity across the life span. Neuroscientist. 2013 Dec;19(6):616-28. doi: 10.1177/1073858413503712.

      The authors test associations between FC and growth, but making sense of such modulation results is difficult without a clearer view of developmental changes per se (e.g., what does an early negative FC mean? Is it an increase in FC when the value gets close to 0? In particular, at 24m, it seems that most FC values are not significantly different from 0, Figure 2B). Observing positive vs negative association effects depending on age is quite puzzling. It is also questionable, for some correlation analyses with cognitive flexibility, to focus on FC that changes with age but to consider FC at a given age.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this important point and understand that it requires some additional consideration. The negative FC values decreasing with age indicate that these regions go from being anti-correlated to becoming increasingly correlated. Hence, FC of these ROIs increased with age. The trajectory seems to suggest that this will keep increasing with age but of course further data need to be collected to assess this.

      Unfortunately, when considering ΔFC to predict cognitive flexibility, the numbers of participants dropped significantly, with N=~15/20 infants per group of preschoolers, making it very challenging to interpret the results with meaningful statistical power.

      - The manuscript uses inappropriate terms "to predict", "prediction" whereas the conducted analyses are not prediction analyses but correlational.

      We thank the reviewer for giving us to opportunity to thoroughly revise the manuscript about this matter. In this work, we had clear hypotheses regarding which variables predicted which certain measures (such as growth predicting FC and FC predicting cognitive outcomes). Therefore, we performed regression analyses rather than correlational analyses to investigate these associations. Hence, we believe that using the term ‘predict and ‘prediction’ is appropriate

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In the introduction and discussion, the authors talk about the link between developmental trajectories and cognitive capacities, and undernutrition. However, they did not compare developmental trajectories but connectivity patterns at different ages with ΔWLZ and cognitive flexibility. I recommend that the authors rephrase the introduction and discussion.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out places requiring better clarity in the text. We made edits through the introduction to better match our investigations. In particular we changed:

      - ‘our understanding of the relationships between early undernutrition, developmental trajectories of brain connectivity, and later cognitive outcomes is still very limited,’ to, ‘our understanding of the relationships between early undernutrition, brain connectivity, and later cognitive outcomes is still very limited’ (line 89, introduction);

      - ‘(ii) investigate if trajectories of early FC have an impact on cognitive outcome at pre-school age in these children,’ to, ‘(ii) investigate if early FC has an impact on cognitive outcome at pre-school age in these children’ (line 137, introduction);

      - ‘This study investigated how early adversity via undernutrition drives longitudinal changes in brain functional connectivity at five time points throughout the first two years of life and how these developmental trajectories are associated with cognitive flexibility at preschool age,’ to, ‘This study investigated how early adversity via undernutrition drives brain functional connectivity throughout the first two years of life and how these early functional connections are associated with cognitive flexibility at preschool age’ (line 215, discussion).

      (2) Considering most research is done in occidental high-income countries, and this work is one of the few presenting research in another context, I think the authors should discuss in the manuscript that differences with previous studies might also be due to environmental and cultural differences. Since the study lacks the statistical power to perform a statistical analysis that directly establishes a link between developmental trajectories and restricted growth and cognitive flexibility, the authors cannot disentangle which differences are related to undernutrition and which might result from growing up in a different environment. I recommend that the authors avoid phrases like (lines 57-58): "We observed that early physical growth before the fifth month of life drove optimal developmental trajectories of FC..." or (lines 223-224) "...our cohort of Gambian infants exhibit atypical developmental trajectories of functional connectivity...".

      We thank the reviewer for this observation, and we agree with the reviewer that other factors differing between low- and poor-resource settings might have an impact on FC trajectories. We therefore specified this in the discussion as follows: “We acknowledge that differences in FC could also be attributed to other environmental and cultural disparities between high-resource and low-resource settings, and future studies are needed to explore this further” (line 238). We revised the whole manuscript to reflect similar statements.

      (3) To better interpret the results, it would be interesting to know if poor early growth predicts late cognitive flexibility in the tested sample and if the ΔWLZ distributions differ compared to a population in a high-income country where undernutrition is less frequent.

      We explored the relationship between changes in growth and cognitive flexibility in the two preschooler group, but there were no significant associations.

      Mean and SD values of WLZ are reported in Table 3. The values at every age are negative, indicating that the infants' weight-for-length is below the expected norm at all ages. To our knowledge, no other studies have assessed changes in growth in an infant sample with similar closely spaced age time points in high-income countries, making comparisons on growth changes challenging.

      (4) It is unclear why WLZ at birth and HCZ at 7-14 days are included in the models. I imagine this is to ensure that differences are not due to growing restrictions before birth. It would be nice if the authors could explain this.

      As the reviewer pointed out, HCZ at 7-14 days was included to ensure associations between growth and FC are not due to physical differences at birth. This case be considered as a 'baseline' measure for cerebral development, in the same way that WLZ at birth was used as a baseline for physical development. Therefore, we can more confidently  assume that the associations between growth and FC were specific to the impact of change in WLZ postnatally and not confounded by the size or maturity of the infant at birth. We specified this in the manuscript as follows: “These analyses were adjusted by WLZ at birth and HCZ at 7/14 days, to more confidently assume that the associations between growth and FC were specific to the impact of change in WLZ postnatally and not confounded by the size or maturity of the infant at birth” (line 520, statistical analysis section in the method section).

      (5) Right frontal-posterior connections at 24 months negatively correlate with ΔWLZ. Thus, restricted growth results in stronger frontal-posterior connections at 24 months. However, the same connections at 24 months positively correlate with cognitive flexibility (stronger connections predict better cognitive flexibility). Do the authors have any interpretation of this? How could this relate to previous findings of the authors (Bulgarelli et al. 2020), showing first an increase and then a decrease in functional connectivity between frontal and parietal regions?

      We acknowledge that interpreting the negative relationship between changes in growth and fronto-posterior FC at 24 months, alongside the positive association between the same connection and later cognitive flexibility, is challenging. We refrain from relating these findings to those published by Bulgarelli in 2020 due to differences in optode locations and because in that work the decrease in fronto-posterior FC was observed after 24 months (up to 36 months), whereas the endpoint in this study is right at 24 months.

      (6) With the growth of the head, the frontal channels move to more temporal areas, right? Could this determine the decrease in frontal inter-hemisphere connections?

      As shown in Nabwera (2017) head size does not increase that much in Gambian infants, or at least as expected by the WHO standard measures. We have added HCZ mean and SD values per age in Table 3.

      Minor points

      - HCZ is used in line 184 but not defined.

      We thank the reviewer for spotting this, we have now specified HCZ at line 184 as follows: ‘head-circumference z-score (HCZ)’.

      - Table SI2: NIRS not undertaken = the participant was assessed but did want or could not perform... I imagine there is a missing "not".

      We thank the reviewer for spotting this, we have now modified the legend of Table SI2 as follows: ‘the participant was assessed but did not want or could not perform the NIRS assessments.’

      - The authors should explain what weight-for-length is for those who are not familiar with it.

      We have added an explanation of weight-for-length in the experimental design section, line 339 as follows: ‘We then tested for relationships between brain FC at age 24 months with measures of early growth, as indexed by changes in weight-for-length z-scores (reflecting body weight in proportion to attained growth in length) at one month of age, and at each of the four subsequent visits (details provided below).’

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) I am confused about the authors' interpretation that left and right front-middle and right front-back FC increased with age. It appears in Figure 2 that the negative FC among these ROIs should actually decrease with age. This means that as individuals grow older, the FC values between these regions and zero diminished, albeit starting with negative FC (anticorrelation values) in younger age groups.

      Yes, the reviewer is correct. The negative values of the left and right front-middle and right front-back FC decreasing with age indicate that these regions go from being anti-correlated to becoming increasingly correlated. Hence, FC of these ROIs increased with age.

      (2) Are these negative values mentioned above at 24 months still negative? Have t-tests been run to examine the differences from zero?

      As suggested, we performed t-tests against zero for the mentioned FC at 24 months, and only the left and right fronto-middle FC are significantly different than zero (left fronto-middle FC: t(94) = 1.8, p = 0.036; right fronto-middle FC t(94) = 2.7, p = 0.003).

      (3) With so many correlation analyses, have multiple comparisons been consistently controlled for? While I assume this was done according to the Methods section, could the authors clarify whether FDR adjustment was applied to all the p-values at once or to a group of p-values each time? I found the following way of reporting FDR-adjusted p-values quite informative, such as PFDR, 24 pairs of ROIs < 0.05.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. P-values of regression analyses were FDR corrected per connection investigated, i.e. 21 possible ΔWLZ values per connection. We have specified this in the method section as follows: “To ensure statistical reliability, results from the regression analyses on each FC were corrected for multiple comparisons using false discovery rate (FDR)(Benjamini & Hochberg, 1995) per each connection investigated, i.e. 21 possible ΔWLZ values per each connection,” (page 12, Statistical Analyses section).

      (4) Can early growth trajectories predict changes in FC? Why not use ΔWLZ to predict ΔFC?

      Unfortunately, when considering ΔWLZ to predict ΔFC, the numbers of participants dropped significantly, with N=~30 infants, making it very challenging to interpret the results. We believe this emphasizes the importance of recruiting large samples when conducting longitudinal studies involving infants and employing multiple measures.

      (5) I might have missed the rationale, but why weren't the growth changes after 5 months studied?

      ΔWLZ between all time points were assessed as predictors of FC at 24 months. We have specified this at line 183 as follows: ‘we used multiple regression with the infant growth trajectory (delta weight for length z-score between all time points, DWLZ) and FC at 24 months’. As indicated in Table 2 and 3 the associations between ΔWLZ at all time points and FC at 24 months were tested, but only those with DWLZ calculated between birth and 1 month and the subsequent time points were significant. DWLZ between 5 months and the subsequent time points, DWLZ between 8 months and the subsequent time points, DWLZ between 12 months and the subsequent time points, DWLZ between 18 months and the subsequent time points did not significantly predict FC at 24 months. These are highlighted in Table 2 and Figure 3 in blue and marked as NS (non-significant).

      (6) Once more, the advantage of longitudinal data is that it allows us to tap into developmental changes. Analyzing and predicting cognitive development based solely on FC values at a single age stage (i.e., 24 months) would overlook the benefits of a longitudinal design, which is regrettable. I suggest that the authors attempt to use ΔFC for predictions and observe the outcomes.

      As mentioned to point (4) raised by the reviewer, unfortunately, when considering ΔWLZ to predict ΔFC, the numbers of participants dropped significantly, with N=~30 infants, making it very challenging to interpret the results. We believe this emphasizes the importance of recruiting large samples when conducting longitudinal studies involving infants and employing various measures.

      (7) In the section "Early FC predicts cognitive flexibility at preschool age", the authors pointed out that "...,none of these survived FDR correction for multiple comparisons." However, the paper discussed the association between FC at 24 months of age and cognitive flexibility, as it was supported by the statistical analysis in the following sections. If FDR correction cannot be satisfied, I would rephrase the implication/conclusion of the results to suggest that early FC does not predict cognitive flexibility at preschool age.

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern regarding the reporting of results that do not survive multiple comparisons. However, considering the uniqueness of our dataset and the novelty of our work, we believe it is crucial to report all significant findings, even those not passing multiple comparisons corrections, as they may motivate hypothesis-generation for future studies. We have taken great care to transparently distinguish between results that survived multiple comparisons and those that did not in both the Results and Discussion sections, ensuring that readers are not misled. It is possible that future studies may replicate and further support these associations. Therefore, by sharing these results with the research community, we provide valuable insights for future investigations.

      Following the reviewer’ suggestion, we specified that results from regression analysis are significant but they did not survive multiple comparisons in the discussion as follows: ‘While our results are consistent with previous studies, we acknowledge that the significant association between early FC and later cognitive flexibility does not withstand multiple comparisons. Therefore, we encourage future studies that may replicate these findings with a larger sample. (line 290, discussion section).

      (8) Have the authors assessed the impact of growth trajectories on cognitive flexibility?

      We explored the relationship between changes in growth and cognitive flexibility in the two preschooler groups, but there were no significant associations.

      (9) Are there no other cognitive or behavioural measures available? Cognitive flexibility is just one domain of cognitive development, and would the impact of undernutrition on cognitive development be domain-specific? There is a lack of theoretical support here. Why choose cognitive flexibility, and should the impact of undernutrition be domain-specific or domain-general?

      We agree with the reviewer that in this work, we chose to focus on one specific cognitive outcome. While this does not imply that the impact of undernutrition is domain-specific, cognitive flexibility, being a core executive function, has been extensively studied in terms of its neural underpinnings using other neuroimaging modalities, especially fMRI (for example see Dajani, 2015; Uddin, 2021).

      Moreover, other studies looking at the effect of adversity on cognitive outcomes focus on specific cognitive skills, such as working memory (Roberts, 2017), reading and arithmetic skills (Soni, 2021).

      We did assess infants also with Mullen Scales of Early Learning (MSEL), although the cognitive flexibility task within the Early Years Toolbox has been specifically designed for preschoolers (Howard, 2015), and this set of tasks has recently been validated in our team in The Gambia (Milosavljevic, 2023).Future works from the BRIGHT team will investigate performance at the MSEL in relation to other variable of the project.

      References:

      D. R. Dajani, L. Q. Uddin, Demystifying cognitive flexibility: Implications for clinical and developmental neuroscience. Trends Neurosci. 38, 571–578 (2015).

      L. Q. Uddin, Cognitive and behavioural flexibility: neural mechanisms and clinical considerations. Nat. Rev. Neurosci. 22, 167–179 (2021).

      Roberts, S. B., Franceschini, M. A., Krauss, A., Lin, P. Y., de Sa, A. B., Có, R., ... & Muentener, P. (2017). A pilot randomized controlled trial of a new supplementary food designed to enhance cognitive performance during prevention and treatment of malnutrition in childhood. Current developments in nutrition, 1(11), e000885.

      Soni, A., Fahey, N., Bhutta, Z. A., Li, W., Frazier, J. A., Moore Simas, T., ... & Allison, J. J. (2021). Early childhood undernutrition, preadolescent physical growth, and cognitive achievement in India: A population-based cohort study. PLoS Medicine, 18(10), e1003838.

      Howard, S. J., & Melhuish, E. (2015). An Early Years Toolbox (EYT) for assessing early executive function, language, self-regulation, and social development: Validity, reliability, and preliminary norms. Journal of Psychoeducational Assessment, 35(3), 255-275.

      Milosavljevic, B., Cook, C. J., Fadera, T., Ghillia, G., Howard, S. J., Makaula, H., ... & Lloyd‐Fox, S. (2023). Executive functioning skills and their environmental predictors among pre‐school aged children in South Africa and The Gambia. Developmental Science, e13407.

      (10) I would review more previous fNIRS studies on infants if they exist (e.g., the work by S Lloyd-Fox, L Emberson, and others). These studies can help identify brain ROIs likely linked to undernutrition and cognitive flexibility. The current analysis methods lean towards exploratory research. This makes the paper more of a proof-of-concept report rather than a strongly theoretically-driven study.

      We thank the reviewer for this important point. While we have reviewed existing fNIRS infant studies, there are no extant works that showed whether specific brain regions are related undernutrition. However, several fMRI studies assessed regions that do support cognitive flexibility, and we mentioned these in the manuscript (for example see Dajani, 2015; Uddin, 2021).

      Other than the BRIGHT project, we are aware of two other projects that assessed the effect of undernutrition on brain development, assessing cognitive outcomes in poor-resource settings:

      - the BEAN project in Bangladesh in which fNIRS data were recorded from the bilateral temporal cortex (i.e. Pirazzoli, 2022);

      - a project in India in which fNIRS data were recorded from frontal, temporal and parietal cortex bilaterally (i.e. Delgado Reyes, 2020)

      The brain regions recorded in these studies largely overlap with the brain regions we recorded from in this study.

      Another aspect to consider is that infants underwent several fNIRS tasks as part of the BRIGHT project, focusing on social processing, deferred imitation, and habituation responses. Therefore, brain regions for data acquisition were chosen to maximize the likelihood of recording meaningful data for all tasks (Lloyd-Fox, 2023). To clarify the text, we specified this information in the methods section (line 383).

      References:

      D. R. Dajani, L. Q. Uddin, Demystifying cognitive flexibility: Implications for clinical and developmental neuroscience. Trends Neurosci. 38, 571–578 (2015).

      Pirazzoli, L., Sullivan, E., Xie, W., Richards, J. E., Bulgarelli, C., Lloyd-Fox, S., ... & Nelson III, C. A. (2022). Association of psychosocial adversity and social information processing in children raised in a low-resource setting: an fNIRS study. Developmental Cognitive Neuroscience, 56, 101125.

      Delgado Reyes, L., Wijeakumar, S., Magnotta, V. A., Forbes, S. H., & Spencer, J. P. (2020). The functional brain networks that underlie visual working memory in the first two years of life. NeuroImage, 219, Article 116971.

      Lloyd-Fox, S., McCann, S., Milosavljevic, B., Katus, L., Blasi, A., Bulgarelli, C., Crespo-Llado, M., Ghillia, G., Fadera, T., Mbye, E., Mason, L., Njai, F., Njie, O., Perapoch-Amado, M., Rozhko, M., Sosseh, F., Saidykhan, M., Touray, E., Moore, S. E., … Team, and the B. S. (2023). The Brain Imaging for Global Health (BRIGHT) Study: Cohort Study Protocol. Gates Open Research, 7(126).

      (11) Last but not least, in the paper, the authors mentioned that fNIRS offers better spatial resolution and anatomical specificity compared to EEG, thereby providing more precise and reliable localization of brain networks. While I partially agree with this perspective, it remains to be explored whether the current fNIRS analysis strategies indeed yield higher spatial resolution. It is hoped that the authors will delve deeper into this discussion in the paper.

      The brain regions of focus were selected based on coregistration work previously conducted at each time point on the array used in this project (Collins-Jones, 2019). We deliberately avoided making claims about small brain regions, considering that head size might increase slightly less with age in The Gambia compared to Western countries (Nabwera, 2017) . However, we maintain that the conclusions drawn in this study offer higher brain-region specificity than could have been  identified with current common EEG methods alone.

      References:

      L. H. Collins-Jones, et al., Longitudinal infant fNIRS channel-space analyses are robust to variability parameters at the group-level: An image reconstruction investigation. Neuroimage 237, 118068 (2021).

      Nabwera, H. M., Fulford, A. J., Moore, S. E., & Prentice, A. M. (2017). Growth faltering in rural Gambian children after four decades of interventions: a retrospective cohort study. The Lancet Global Health, 5(2), e208–e216.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Introduction

      - Among important developmental mechanisms to mention are the development of exuberant connections and the further selection/stabilization of the relevant ones according to environmental stimulation, vs the pruning of others.

      We agree with the reviewer that the development of exuberant connections and subsequent pruning is a universal process of paramount importance during the first years of life. However, after revising our introduction, given the word limit of the journal, we maintained focus on neurodevelopment and early adversity.

      Results

      - Adding a few more information on the 6 sections and 21 connections would be welcome. In particular for within-section FC: how was this computed?

      The 6 sections were created based on the co-registration of the array used in this study at each age in a previous published work L. H. Collins-Jones, et al., Longitudinal infant fNIRS channel-space analyses are robust to variability parameters at the group-level: An image reconstruction investigation. Neuroimage 237, 118068 (2021). This is reference No. 68 in the manuscript.

      As we mentioned in the section fNIRS preprocessing and data-analysis: ‘The sections were established via the 17 channels of each hemisphere which were grouped into front, middle and back (for a total of six regions) based on a previous co-registration of the BRIGHT fNIRS arrays onto age-appropriate templates’.

      The 21 connections were defined as all the possible links between the 6 regions, specifically: the interhemispheric homotopic connections (in orange in Figure SI1), which connect the same regions between hemispheres (i.e., front left with front right); the intrahemispheric connections (in green in Figure SI1), which correlate channels belonging to the same region; the fronto-posterior connections (in blue in Figure SI1), which link front and middle, middle and back, and front and back regions of the same hemisphere; and the crossing interhemispheric connections (non-homotopic interhemispheric, in yellow in Figure SI1), which link the front, middle, and back areas between left and right hemispheres. We added these specifications also in the legend of Figure SI1 for clarity.

      - The denomination intrahemispheric vs fronto-posterior vs crossed connections is not clear. Maybe prefer intra-hemispheric vs inter-hemispheric homotopic vs inter-hemispheric non-homotopic (also in Figure SI1).

      We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion regarding terminology. However, we believe that the term 'inter-hemispheric non-homotopic' could potentially refer to both connections within the same brain hemisphere from front to back and connections crossing between hemispheres, leading to increased confusion. Therefore, we have chosen not to include the term 'non-homotopic' and instead added 'homotopic' to 'interhemispheric' throughout the manuscript to emphasize that these functional connections occur between corresponding regions of the two hemispheres.

      - with time -> with age.

      We replaced “with time” with “with age” as suggested through the manuscript.

      - The description of both HbO2 and HHb results overloads the main text: would it be relevant to present one of the two in Supplementary Information if the results are coherent?

      We understand the reviewer’s concern regarding overloading the results section with reporting both chromophores. However, reporting results for both HbO and HHb is considered a crucial step for publications in the fNIRS field, as emphasized in recent formal guidance (Yücel et al., 2020). One of the strengths of fNIRS compared to fMRI is its ability to record from both chromophores, enabling a more precise characterization of brain activations and oscillations. Moreover, in FC studies like this one, ensuring that HbO and HHb results overlap is an important check that increases confidence in interpreting the findings.

      References:

      Yücel, M. A., von Lühmann, A., Scholkmann, F., Gervain, J., Dan, I., Ayaz, H., Boas, D., Cooper, R. J., Culver, J., Elwell, C. E., Eggebrecht, A. ., Franceschini, M. A., Grova, C., Homae, F., Lesage, F., Obrig, H., Tachtsidis, I., Tak, S., Tong, Y., … Wolf, M. (2020). Best Practices for fNIRS publications. Neurophotonics, 1–34. https://doi.org/10.1117/1.NPh.8.1.012101

      - HCZ is not defined when first used.

      We thank the reviewer for spotting this, we have now specified HCZ at line 184 as follows: ‘head-circumference z-score (HCZ)’.

      - Choosing the analyzed measures to "maximize power" could be criticised.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern. However, correlating all the FC values with all changes in growth would have raised an important issue for multiple comparisons. We therefore we made a priori decision to focus on investigating the relationship between changes in growth and those FC that showed a significant change with age, considering these as the most interesting ones from a developmental perspective in our sample.

      Discussion

      - I would recommend using the same order to synthesize results and further discuss them.

      We agree with the reviewer that the suggested structure is optimal for a clear discussion section. We have indeed followed it, with each paragraph covering specific aspects:

      - Recap of the study aims

      - Results summary and discussion of developmental changes

      - Results summary and discussion of the relationship between changes in growth and FC

      - Results summary and discussion of the relationship between FC and cognitive flexibility

      - Limitations

      - Conclusion

      Given the numerous results presented in this paper, we believe that readers will better digest them by first reading a summary of the results followed by their interpretations, rather than condensing all the interpretations together.

      - Highlighting how "atypical" developmental trajectories are in Gambian infants would be welcome in the Results section. Other interpretations can be found than "The observed decrease in frontal inter-hemispheric FC with increasing age may be due to the exposure to early life undernutrition adversity".

      We agree with the reviewer that other factors that differ between low- and high-resource settings might have an impact on FC trajectories. We therefore specified this in the discussion as follows: “We acknowledge that differences in FC could also be attributed to other environmental and cultural disparities between high-resource and low-resource settings, and future studies are needed to further investigate cultural, environmental, and genetic effects on brain FC” (line 238).

      - Focusing on FC at 24m for the relationship with growth is questionable.

      Correlating the FC values at 5 time points with all changes in growth would have raised an important issue for multiple comparisons. We therefore we made a decision a priori to focus on investigating the relationship between changes in growth and FC at 24 months as our final time point of data collection. We added this information in the methods section as follows: “To investigate the impact of undernutrition on FC development, we used DWLZ as independent variables in regression analyses on HbO2 (as the chromophore with the highest signal-to-noise ratio) FC at 24 months, our final time point of data collection” (line 517, method section).

      - There is too much emphasis on the correlation between FC and cognitive flexibility, whereas results are not significant after correction for multiple comparisons.

      Following the reviewer’ suggestion, we specified that results from regression analysis are significant but they did not survive multiple comparisons in the discussion as follows: While our results are consistent with previous studies, we acknowledge that the significant association between early FC and later cognitive flexibility does not withstand multiple comparisons. Therefore, we encourage future studies that may replicate these findings with a larger sample. (line 290, discussion section).

      Methods

      - I would recommend detailing how z-scores were computed in the paragraph "Anthropometric measures".

      We specified how z-scores were computed in the statistical analysis section as follows: “Anthropometric measures were converted to age and sex adjusted z‐scores that are based on World Health Organization Child Growth Standards (93). Weight‐for‐Length (WLZ) and Head Circumference (HCZ) z-scores were computed” (line 509, method section). As transforming data is the first step of statistical analysis and is not directly related to data collection, we believe it is more appropriate to retain this description in the statistical analysis section.

      - FC computation: the mention of "correlating the first and the last 250s" is not clear.

      We specified this more clearly in the text as follows: We found that correlating the first and the last 250 seconds of valid data after pre-processing provided the highest percentage of infants with strong correlation between the first and the last portion of data (line 467).

      - The manuscript mentions "age 3 years" for the younger preschoolers but ~48months rather corresponds to 4 years.

      We revised the entire manuscript and the supplementary materials, but we could not find any instance in which preschoolers are referred with age in months rather than in years.

      - Specify the number of children evaluated at 4 and 5 years. Is the test of cognitive flexibility normalized for age? If not, how were the 2 groups considered in the analyses? (age as a confounding factor).

      We have added the number of children in the two preschooler groups as follows: younger preschoolers (age mean ± SD=47.96 ± 2.77 months, N=77) and older preschoolers (age mean ± SD=57.58 ± 2.11 months, N=84). (line 484).

      The cognitive flexibility test was not normalized for age, as this task was specifically developed for preschoolers (Howard, 2015). As mentioned in ‘Cognitive flexibility at preschool age’ of the methods section, “data were collected in two ranges of preschool ages”, which guided our decision to perform regression analysis on the impact of FC on cognitive flexibility separately within these two age groups, rather than treating them as a single group of preschoolers.

      References:

      Howard, S. J., & Melhuish, E. (2015). An Early Years Toolbox (EYT) for assessing early executive function, language, self-regulation, and social development: Validity, reliability, and preliminary norms. Journal of Psychoeducational Assessment, 35(3), 255-275.

      Figures and Tables

      - Table 1 could highlight the significant results. It is not clear what the "baseline" results correspond to.

      We have marked in bold the results that are statistically significant in Table 1. In the linear mixed model we performed, the first time point (i.e. 5 months) is chosen as ‘baseline’, i.e. the reference against which the other time points are compared to, and its statistical values refer to its significance against 0 (as it has been performed in Bulgarelli 2020).

      - Figures 2 B and C seem redundant? What is SE vs SD?

      We believe that both figures 2B and 2C are useful for the readers. While the first one shows the mean FC values at the group level, the second one highlights the individual variability of FC values (typical of infant neuroimaging data), which also why it is interesting to relate these measures to other variables of our dataset (i.e. growth and cognitive flexibility). Figure 2C also reports mean FC values per age, but these might be less visible considering that also one dot per infant is also plotted.

      SE stands for standard error, and in the legend of the figure we specified this as follows: ‘Mean and standard error of the mean (SE)’. SD stands for standard deviation, and we have now specified this as follows: ‘mean ± standard deviation (SD)’ .

      - Table 2: I would recommend removing results that don't survive corrections for multiple comparisons.

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern regarding the reporting of results that do not survive multiple comparisons. However, considering the uniqueness of our dataset and the novelty of our work, we believe it is crucial to report all significant findings. We have taken great care to transparently distinguish between results that survived multiple comparisons and those that did not in both the Results and Discussion sections, ensuring that readers are not misled. It is possible that future studies may replicate and further strengthen these associations. Therefore, by sharing these results with the research community, we provide valuable insights for future investigations.

      - Figure 3: the top is redundant with Table 2: to be merged? B: the statistical results might be shown in a Table.

      We agree with the reviewer that the top part of Figure 3 and Table 2 report the same results. However, given the richness of these findings, we believe that the top part of Figure 3 serves as a useful summary for readers. Additionally, examining both the top and bottom parts of Figure 3 provides a comprehensive overview of the regression analysis conducted in this study.

      - Figure SI6: Is it really a % in x-axis?

      We thank the reviewer for spotting this typo, the percentage is relevant for the y-axis only. We removed the % symbol from ticks of the x-axis.

      - Table SI1: the presented p-values don't seem to survive Bonferroni correction, contrary to what is written.

      We thank the reviewer for spotting this mistake, we removed the reference to the Bonferroni correction for the p-values.

      - Table SI2: For the proportion of children included in the analysis, maybe be precise that the proportion was computed based on the ones with acquired data. Maybe also add the proportion according to all children, to better show the high drop-out rate at certain ages?

      We thank the reviewer for these useful suggestions. We have specified in the legend of the table how we calculated the proportion of infants included as follows: ‘The proportion of children included in the analysis was computed based on the infants with FC data’. We have also added a column in the table called ‘Inclusion rate (from the 204 infants recruited)’, following the reviewer’s suggestion. This will be a useful reference for future studies.

      - A few typos should be corrected throughout the manuscript.

      We thoroughly revised the main manuscript and the supplementary materials for typos.

    1. Réunion Virtuelle FLE : Les clés de la pédagogie positive

      Date : 24 avril 2025 Animateur : Margoline Pierré (Formatrice au Cavilam Alliance Française)

      Introduction et modération : Sébrine Bre (Responsable Formation aux éditions Maison des langues)

      Résumé exécutif :

      Cette rencontre virtuelle FLE est le lancement d'un parcours pédagogique sur la pédagogie positive organisé par les éditions Maison des langues en collaboration avec le Cavilam.

      Margoline Pierré présente les principes fondamentaux de la pédagogie positive, ses figures inspirantes et ses applications concrètes dans la classe de FLE.

      L'objectif est de découvrir cette approche pour faire évoluer les pratiques enseignantes et favoriser un environnement d'apprentissage respectueux, encourageant et porteur pour les élèves.

      Points clés et thèmes principaux :

      La pédagogie positive n'est pas une théorie unique mais un courant basé sur des principes communs issus de la psychologie, des sciences de l'éducation, des neurosciences et de la communication non violente.

      L'idée centrale est de "mettre l'élève au centre de l'apprentissage dans un cadre respectueux encourageant et porteur."

      Figures inspirantes :

      Plusieurs figures ont influencé la réflexion sur la pédagogie positive, parmi lesquelles :

      • Martin Sellingman : Fondateur de la psychologie positive, axée sur les forces et les émotions positives pour l'épanouissement.
      • Jane Nelson : Psychologue et éducatrice, à l'origine de la discipline positive qui combine fermeté et bienveillance.
      • Philippe Meirieu : Chercheur en sciences de l'éducation, insiste sur l'importance de la relation éducative.
      • Catherine Gueguen : Pédiatre formée aux neurosciences affectives et sociales, souligne l'impact du climat relationnel sur l'apprentissage.
      • Marshall Rosenberg : Créateur de la communication non violente (CNV) pour favoriser l'écoute et l'empathie.
      • Céline Alvarez : Pédagogue, s'appuie sur la liberté, la manipulation concrète, le respect du rythme et les neurosciences.
      • Howard Gardner : Psychologue, connu pour la théorie des intelligences multiples, valorisant la diversité des talents.

      Les sept principes fondamentaux de la pédagogie positive :

      Répondre aux besoins de reconnaissance et d'appartenance : Ces besoins fondamentaux (se sentir vu, entendu, intégré, accepté) créent un cadre sécurisant propice à l'apprentissage.

      Des actions simples comme nommer les élèves, des mots d'encouragement, des activités brise-glace et des travaux de groupe peuvent y contribuer.

      Comme le disait Marshall Rosenberg : "Connect before correct." Avant d'enseigner, il faut savoir accueillir.

      Exemple d'activité : Cercle de présentation avec un moyen mnémotechnique lié au prénom (ex: "Je m'appelle Marjoline et j'aime manger des mangues"). Afficher un nuage de prénoms dans la classe peut renforcer le sentiment d'appartenance.

      Nourrir l'estime de soi et la confiance en soi : La confiance en soi (liée à l'action, la capacité de faire) et l'estime de soi (liée à l'image de soi, la valeur reconnue) sont cruciales et se construisent notamment dans le regard de l'enseignant.

      L'effet Pygmalion (ou prophétie autoréalisatrice) démontre l'influence des attentes positives sur les performances. Il faut éviter les étiquettes négatives et privilégier les phrases qui encouragent et renforcent la croyance en leurs capacités.

      Exemples de phrases à privilégier : "Je sais que tu peux le faire", "Tu es capable d'y arriver même si c'est difficile". Exemples de phrases à éviter : "Tu es lent(e)", "Tu n'as pas la bosse des maths", "Tu es bavarde".

      Valoriser l'effort plutôt que le résultat est important.

      Exemple d'activité : Utiliser les 24 forces de caractère de Martin Sellingman sous forme de cartes à s'offrir mutuellement en explicitant la force reconnue chez l'autre ("ça nourrit à fond l'estime de soi et la confiance").

      Prendre en compte les émotions : Les élèves sont des personnes entières avec des émotions qui influencent directement les processus cognitifs (attention, mémorisation, motivation). Un élève stressé ou inquiet ne sera pas disponible pour apprendre. Il est important d'accueillir, d'expliciter et d'utiliser les émotions en classe.

      L'apprentissage à mieux se connaître émotionnellement (compétences sociales et émotionnelles) et à mieux connaître les autres (empathie) est essentiel. "Tous les travaux autour des neuroscience nous montre bien que les émotions sont indissociables du des processus cognitifs."

      Exemple d'activité : Utiliser des cartes d'émotion pour un temps d'échange en début de cours ou en fin de cycle ("Comment te sens-tu aujourd'hui et pourquoi ?"). Cela permet de prendre la température émotionnelle de la classe et de travailler la communication orale.

      Tenir compte des différents profils d'apprentissage : Les élèves apprennent de différentes manières. Plusieurs grilles de lecture existent pour comprendre cette diversité, comme le modèle VAK (Visuel, Auditif, Kinesthésique), la théorie des intelligences multiples d'Howard Gardner, les sept personnalités d'apprentissage, ou la boussole des quatre couleurs (inspirée du modèle DISC). Comprendre ces profils permet d'adapter sa posture, de diversifier les approches, les activités et les supports, et de valoriser la diversité. Adapter sa pédagogie n'est pas "en faire plus" mais "en faire autrement."

      Valoriser l'erreur et favoriser les feedbacks positifs : L'erreur est trop souvent perçue négativement. Il faut convaincre les élèves qu'elle est inévitable, naturelle et indispensable à l'apprentissage.

      L'erreur est un signal, un point d'appui pour la compréhension et l'avancement. "On apprend de ses erreurs" est une réalité neurocognitive. Il faut créer un climat de sécurité où les élèves n'ont pas peur de se tromper et instaurer une "culture de l'essai".

      Le feedback doit être bienveillant, utile et constructif, avec des compliments descriptifs et spécifiques.

      Le "feedback sandwich" (point fort, point à améliorer, encouragement) est une technique utile.

      Il est important d'impliquer l'élève dans le processus en lui demandant ce qu'il pense de son travail.

      Citations inspirantes : "Le meilleur maître, c'est l'échec" (Maître Yoda), "Il y a de l'or dans l'erreur" (Matthieu Cheddid). "Je ne perds jamais. Soit je gagne, soit j'apprends." (Nelson Mandela).

      Exemple d'activité : Le "bingo des erreurs" où les élèves recherchent et analysent collectivement des erreurs anonymes dans un corpus. Cela permet de dédramatiser et de jouer avec l'erreur.

      Préserver la motivation et l'implication : La motivation des élèves repose sur les "4 C" :

      • Choix : Sentiment d'avoir un peu de liberté et de contrôle dans la classe (ex: choisir des exercices, l'ordre des activités).
      • Connexion : Sentiment d'être connecté au groupe, à l'enseignant et au contenu.
      • Compétences : Sentiment d'être capable de progresser et de réussir à son niveau. L'enseignant doit bien choisir le niveau de difficulté des activités.
      • Compréhension : Besoin de comprendre pourquoi ils apprennent, le but des activités, ce à quoi cela va les mener.

      Il est crucial de changer la perception de l'intelligence. Selon les travaux de Carole Dweck sur les mindsets, un état d'esprit fixe considère l'intelligence comme innée et figée, ce qui freine la prise de risque et la progression.

      Un état d'esprit de développement considère que les compétences peuvent évoluer avec l'effort et les stratégies ("Je ne peux pas encore").

      "On peut progresser toute ton de vie."

      L'enseignant doit aussi se motiver lui-même pour être entraînant et "réenchanter" le quotidien de la classe (varier les supports, dynamiser les activités, apporter de la couleur, utiliser le jeu, stimuler la créativité, attiser la curiosité).

      Développer l'autonomie : Rendre les apprenants responsables et acteurs de leur apprentissage, en privilégiant une pédagogie active où ils participent, expérimentent, cherchent et construisent leurs connaissances.

      Encourager la métacognition (réfléchir à sa propre manière d'apprendre) est essentiel pour leur donner des outils. Apprendre à réapprendre (grâce aux neurosciences cognitives) est une compétence clé.

      L'apprentissage informel (regarder des séries, suivre des comptes sur les réseaux sociaux, créer un groupe WhatsApp de classe) est une autre voie vers l'autonomie. S'inspirer de la "classe autonome" en proposant des ateliers autocorrectifs est également une piste.

      "L'autonomie, c'est pas de laisser l'apprenant seul, c'est l'accompagner et créer des conditions pour qu'il apprenne à apprendre par lui-même."

      Citation : "Apprendre, c'est devenir capable de se passer de l'enseignant." (Jean-Pierre Astolfi)

      Parcours pédagogique et ateliers complémentaires :

      Le parcours pédagogique comprend deux rencontres virtuelles FLE gratuites et quatre ateliers virtuels payants (27,90 € par atelier) plus interactifs et pratiques (2h, max 50 personnes, tâches avant et après). Un certificat de 3 heures de formation est délivré par les éditions Maison des langues.

      Rencontre virtuelle FLE n°1 (Lancement) : 24 avril - "Les clés de la pédagogie positive" (Margoline Pierré) Rencontre virtuelle FLE n°2 : 30 avril - Application des concepts dans l'offre éditoriale des éditions Maison des langues (Sébastien Devraz)

      Atelier virtuel n°1 : 21 mai - "Prise en compte et gestion des dimensions [émotionnelles] dans la classe de FLE" (Margoline Pierré)

      Atelier virtuel n°2 : 18 juin - "Profils et personnalités d'apprentissage de nos apprenants" (Margoline Pierré)

      Atelier virtuel n°3 (Automne) : Apport des neurosciences sur l'apprentissage (Laurence Rogie)

      Atelier virtuel n°4 (Automne) : Pédagogie de l'erreur et gestion des rétroactions (Magalie Delcombel)

      Les inscriptions aux rencontres virtuelles sont gratuites via Evenbrite. L'inscription au premier atelier (21 mai) ouvre dès le 2 mai.

      Remarques et questions du public :

      • Difficulté pour les ados à parler de leurs émotions : L'animatrice suggère une approche progressive, en commençant par des émotions positives ou en racontant des anecdotes passées.
      • Demande de référence sur les sept personnalités d'apprentissage (qui sera incluse dans la sitographie).
      • Appréciation de la participation et du dynamisme malgré le format virtuel.
      • Souligne l'importance de la formation continue pour les enseignants.

      Conclusion de la rencontre :

      Cette première rencontre a posé les bases de la pédagogie positive et ses sept principes.

      Elle invite les participants à explorer davantage ces concepts et à les appliquer dans leurs pratiques, en soulignant que "déjà avec cette base là vous pouvez faire de grandes choses".

      Le parcours proposé par les éditions Maison des langues et le Cavilam offre des approfondissements précieux pour ceux qui souhaitent aller plus loin.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This is a solid study of stimulus-evoked neural activity dynamics in the feedforward pathway from mouse hand/forelimb mechanoreceptor afferents to S1 and M1 cortex. The conclusions are generally well supported and match expectations from previous studies of hand/forelimb circuits by this same group (Yamawaki et al., 2021), from the well-studied whisker tactile pathway to whisker S1 and M1, and from the corresponding pathway in primates. The study uses the novel approach of optogenetic stimulation of PV afferents in the periphery, which provides an impulse-like volley of peripheral spikes, which is useful for studying feedforward circuit dynamics. These are primarily proprioceptors, so results could differ for specific mechanoreceptor populations, but this is a reasonable tool to probe basic circuit activation. Mice are awake but not engaged in a somatosensory task, which is sufficient for the study goals.

      The main results are: 1) brief peripheral activation drives brief sensory-evoked responses at ~ 15 ms latency in S1 and ~25 ms latency in M1, which is consistent with classical fast propagation on the subcortical pathway to S1, followed by slow propagation on the polysynaptic, non-myelinated pathway from S1 to M1; 2) each peripheral impulse evokes a triphasic activation-suppression-rebound response in both S1 and M1; 3) PV interneurons carry the major component of spike modulation for each of these phases; 4) activation of PV neurons in each area (M1 or S1) drives suppression and rebound both in the local area and in the other downstream area; 5) peripheral-evoked neural activity in M1 is at least partially dependent on transmission through S1.

      All conclusions are well-supported and reasonably interpreted. There are no major new findings that were not expected from standard models of somatosensory pathways or from prior work in the whisker system.

      Strengths:

      This is a well-conducted and analyzed study in which the findings are clearly presented. The optogenetic sensory afferent stimulation method is novel and is well-suited for studying feedforward circuit dynamics. This study provides important baseline knowledge from which studies of more complex sensorimotor processing can build.

      There are no further recommendations for the authors.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Building on previous in vitro synaptic circuit work (Yamawaki et al., eLife 10, 2021), Piña Novo et al. utilize an in vivo optogenetic-electrophysiological approach to characterize sensory-evoked spiking activity in the mouse's forelimb primary somatosensory (S1) and motor (M1) areas. Using a combination of a novel "phototactile" somatosensory stimuli to the mouse's hand and simultaneous high-density linear array recordings in both S1 and M1, the authors report in awake mice that evoked cortical responses follow a triphasic peak-suppression-rebound pattern response. They also find that M1 responses are delayed and attenuated relative to S1. Further analysis revealed a 20-fold difference in subcortical versus corticocortical propagation speeds.

      They also report that PV interneurons in S1 are strongly recruited by hand stimulation. Furthermore, they report that selective activation of PV cells can produce a suppression and rebound response similar to "phototactile" stimuli. Lastly, the authors demonstrate that silencing S1 through local PV cell activation reduces M1 response to hand stimulation, suggesting S1 may directly drive M1 responses.

      Strengths:

      The study was technically well done, with convincing results. The data presented are appropriately analyzed. The author's findings build on a growing body of both in vitro and in vivo work examining the synaptic circuits underlying the interactions between S1 and M1. The paper is well-written and illustrated. Overall, the study will be useful to those interested in forelimb S1-M1 interactions.

      Weaknesses:

      Although the results are clear and convincing, one weakness is that many results are consistent with previous studies in other sensorimotor systems, and thus not all that surprising. For example, the findings that sensory stimulation results in delayed and attenuated responses in M1 relative to S1 and that PV inhibitory cells in S1 are strongly recruited by sensory stimulation are not novel (e.g., Bruno et al., J Neurosci 22, 10966-10975, 2002; Swadlow, Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci 357, 1717-1727, 2002; Gabernet et al., Neuron 48, 315-327, 2005; Cruikshank et al., Nat Neurosci 10, 462-468, 2007; Ferezou et al., Neuron 56, 907-923, 2007; Sreenivasan et al., Neuron 92, 1368-1382, 2016; Yu et al., Neuron 104, 412-427 e414, 2019). Furthermore, the observation that sensory processing in M1 depends upon activity in S1 is also not novel (e.g., Ferezou et al., Neuron 56, 907-923, 2007; Sreenivasan et al., Neuron 92, 1368-1382, 2016). The authors do a good job highlighting how their results are consistent with these previous studies.

      We thank the reviewer for the close reading of the manuscript and the many constructive comments and critiques. As the reviewer notes, there have been many prior studies of related circuits in other sensorimotor systems forming an important context for our study and findings, as we have tried to highlight. We appreciate the suggestions for additional relevant articles to cite.

      Perhaps a more significant weakness, in my opinion, was the missing analyses given the rich dataset collected. For example, why lump all responsive units and not break them down based on their depth? Given superficial and deep layers respond at different latencies and have different response magnitudes and durations to sensory stimuli (e.g., L2/3 is much more sparse) (e.g., Constantinople et al., Science 340, 1591-1594, 2013; Manita et al., Neuron 86, 1304-1316, 2015; Petersen, Nat Rev Neurosci 20, 533-546, 2019; Yu et al., Neuron 104, 412-427 e414, 2019), their conclusions could be biased toward more active layers (e.g., L4 and L5). These additional analyses could reveal interesting similarities or important differences, increasing the manuscript's impact. Given the authors use high-density linear arrays, they should have this data.

      We have analyzed the activity patterns as a function of cortical depth, and now include these results in the manuscript as suggested. The key new finding is that the M1 responses are strongest in upper layers, consistent with expectations based on the excitatory corticocortical synaptic connectivity characterized previously. Changes to the manuscript include new figures (Figure 5; Figure 5 - figure supplement 1), which we explain (Methods: page 14, lines 618-621), describe (new Results section: pages 4-5, lines 183-189), comment on (Discussion: page 9, lines 378-391), and summarize the significance of (Abstract: page 1, lines 22-24). In addition, we incorporated the new laminar analysis into a summary schematic (Figure 9). We thank the reviewer for suggesting this analysis.

      Similarly, why not isolate and compare PV versus non-PV units in M1? They did the photostimulation experiments and presumably have the data. Recent in vitro work suggests PV neurons in the upper layers (L2/3) of M1 are strongly recruited by S1 (e.g., Okoro et al., J Neurosci 42, 8095-8112, 2022; Martinetti et al., Cerebral cortex 32, 1932-1949, 2022). Does the author's data support these in vitro observations?

      These experiments were relatively complex and M1 optotagging was not routinely included in the stimulus and acquisition protocol. Therefore, we don’t have sufficient data for this analysis. We plan to address this in future studies.

      It would have also been interesting to suppress M1 while stimulating the hand to determine if any part of the S1 triphasic response depends on M1 feedback.

      We agree that this is of interest but consider this to be outside the scope of the current study.

      I appreciate the control experiment showing that optical hand stimulation did not evoke forelimb movement. However, this appears to be an N=1. How consistent was this result across animals, and how was this monitored in those animals? Can the authors say anything about digit movement?

      We have performed additional experiments to address this point. A constraint with EMG is that it is limited to the muscle(s) one chooses to record from, and it is difficult to implant tiny muscles of the hand. Therefore, for this analysis, we used kilohertz videography as a high-sensitivity method for movement surveillance across the hand. Hand stimulation did not evoke any detectable movements. Changes in the manuscript include: revised Figure 1 - figure supplement 1; supplementary Figure 1 - video 1; and associated text edits in the Methods (page 13, line 557; page 14, lines 626-639) and Results sections (page 2, lines 84-85).

      A light intensity of 5 mW was used to stimulate the hand, but it is unclear how or why the authors chose this intensity. Did S1 and M1 responses (e.g., amplitude and latency) change with lower or higher intensities? Was the triphasic response dependent on the intensity of the "phototactile" stimuli?

      As we now say in the Methods > Optogenetic photostimulation of the hand section (page 13, lines 562-565), “This intensity was chosen based on pilot experiments in which we varied the LED power, which showed that this intensity was reliably above the threshold for evoking robust responses in both S1 and M1 without evoking any visually detectable movements (as subsequently confirmed by videography)”.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Communication between sensory and motor cortices is likely to be important for many aspects of behavior, and in this study, the authors carefully analyse neuronal spiking activity in S1 and M1 evoked by peripheral paw stimulation finding clear evidence for sensory responses in both cortical regions

      Strengths:

      The experiments and data analyses appear to have been carefully carried out and clearly represented.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Some studies have found evidence for excitatory projection neurons expressing PV and in particular some excitatory pyramidal cells can be labelled in PV-Cre mice. The authors might want to check if this is the case in their study, and if so, whether that might impact any conclusions.

      Thank you for pointing this out. The prior studies suggest it is mainly a subset of layer 5B excitatory neurons that may express PV. We checked this in two ways. Anatomically, we did not find double-labeling. An electrophysiology assay showed that, although some evoked excitatory synaptic input could be detected in some neurons, these inputs were very weak. Results from these assays are shown in new Figure 6 - figure supplement 1, with associated text edits in the Methods (page 11, lines 469-471; page 15, lines 657-668) and Results (page 5, lines 198-199) sections.

      (2) I think the analysis shown in Figure S1 apparently reporting the absence of movements evoked by the forepaw stimulation could be strengthened. It is unclear what is shown in the various panels. I would imagine that an average of many stimulus repetitions would be needed to indicate whether there is an evoked movement or not. This could also be state-dependent and perhaps more likely to happen early in a recording session. Videography could also be helpful.

      As noted above, we have performed additional experiments to address this.

      (3) Some similar aspects of the evoked responses, including triphasic dynamics, have been reported in whisker S1 and M1, and the authors might want to cite Sreenivasan et al., 2016.

      Thank you for pointing this out; we now cite this article (page 1, line 46; page 10, line 415).

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This is a solid study of stimulus-evoked neural activity dynamics in the feedforward pathway from mouse hand/forelimb mechanoreceptor afferents to S1 and M1 cortex. The conclusions are generally well supported, and match expectations from previous studies of hand/forelimb circuits by this same group (Yamawaki et al., 2021), from the well-studied whisker tactile pathway to whisker S1 and M1, and from the corresponding pathway in primates. The study uses the novel approach of optogenetic stimulation of PV afferents in the periphery, which provides an impulselike volley of peripheral spikes, which is useful for studying feedforward circuit dynamics. These are primarily proprioceptors, so results could differ for specific mechanoreceptor populations, but this is a reasonable tool to probe basic circuit activation. Mice are awake but not engaged in a somatosensory task, which is sufficient for the study goals.

      The main results are:

      (1) brief peripheral activation drives brief sensory-evoked responses at ~ 15 ms latency in S1 and ~25 ms latency in M1, which is consistent with classical fast propagation on the subcortical pathway to S1, followed by slow propagation on the polysynaptic, non-myelinated pathway from S1 to M1;

      (2) each peripheral impulse evokes a triphasic activation-suppression-rebound response in both S1 and M1;

      (3) PV interneurons carry the major component of spike modulation for each of these phases; (4) activation of PV neurons in each area (M1 or S1) drives suppression and rebound both in the local area and in the other downstream area;

      (5) peripheral-evoked neural activity in M1 is at least partially dependent on transmission through S1.

      All conclusions are well-supported and reasonably interpreted. There are no major new findings that were not expected from standard models of somatosensory pathways or from prior work in the whisker system.

      Strengths:

      This is a well-conducted and analyzed study in which the findings are clearly presented. This will provide important baseline knowledge from which studies of more complex sensorimotor processing can build.

      Weaknesses:

      A few minor issues should be addressed to improve clarity of presentation and interpretation:

      (1) It is critical for interpretation that the stimulus does not evoke a motor response, which could induce reafference-based activity that could drive, or mask, some of the triphasic response. Figure S1 shows that no motor response is evoked for one example session, but this would be stronger if results were analyzed over several mice.

      As noted above, we have performed additional experiments to address this point.

      (2) The recordings combine single and multi-units, which is fine for measures of response modulation, but not for absolute evoked firing rate, which is only interpretable for single units. For example, evoked firing rate in S1 could be higher than M1, if spike sorting were more difficult in S1, resulting in a higher fraction of multi-units relative to M1. Because of this, if reporting of absolute firing rates is an essential component of the paper, Figs 3D and 4E should be recalculated just for single units.

      Thank you for noting this. Although the absolute firing rates are not essential for the main findings or conclusions (which as noted focus on response modulations and relative differences) we agree that analyzing the single-unit response amplitudes is useful. Therefore, changes in the manuscript now include: revised Figure 3, and associated text edits in the Methods (page 12, lines 543-545), Results (page 3, lines 115-119), and Discussion (page 7, lines 305-311) sections.

      (3) In Figure 5B, the average light-evoked firing rate of PV neurons seems to come up before time 0, unlike the single-trial rasters above it. Presumably, this reflects binning for firing rate calculation. This should be corrected to avoid confusion.

      Yes, this reflects the binning. We agree that this is potentially confusing and have removed these average plots below the raster plots, as the rasters alone suffice to demonstrate the result (i.e., that PV units are strongly activated and thus tagged by optogenetic stimulation). Changes are now reflected in revised Figure 6.

      (4) In Figure 6A bottom, please clarify what legends "W. suppression" and "W. rebound" mean.

      In the figure plot legends, the “W.” has been removed. Changes are now reflected in revised Figure 7 and Figure 7 – figure supplement 1.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Did you filter the neural signals during acquisition? If so, please include these details in the results.

      Signals were bandpass-filtered (2.5 Hz to 7.6 KHz) at the hardware level at acquisition (with no additional software filtering applied), as now clarified in the Methods Electrophysiological recordings section as requested (page 12, lines: 525-526).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Some studies have found evidence for excitatory projection neurons expressing PV and in particular some excitatory pyramidal cells can be labelled in PV-Cre mice. The authors might want to check if this is the case in their study, and if so, whether that might impact any conclusions.

      Please see above for our response to this issue.

      (2) I think the analysis shown in Figure S1 apparently reporting the absence of movements evoked by the forepaw stimulation could be strengthened. It is unclear what is shown in the various panels. I would imagine that an average of many stimulus repetitions would be needed to indicate whether there is an evoked movement or not. This could also be state-dependent and perhaps more likely to happen early in a recording session. Videography could also be helpful.

      Please see above for our response to this issue.

      (3) Some similar aspects of the evoked responses, including triphasic dynamics, have been reported in whisker S1 and M1, and the authors might want to cite Sreenivasan et al., 2016.

      As noted above, we now cite this study.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors discovered MYL3 of marine medaka (Oryzias melastigma) as a novel NNV entry receptor, elucidating its facilitation of RGNNV entry into host cells through macropinocytosis, mediated by the IGF1R-Rac1/Cdc42 pathway.

      Strengths:

      In this manuscript, the authors have performed in vitro and in vivo experiments to prove that MnMYL3 may serve as a receptor for NNV via macropinocytosis pathway. These experiments with different methods include Co-IP, RNAi, pulldown, SPR, flow cytometry, immunofluorescence assays and so on. In general, the results are clearly presented in the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      For the writing in the introduction and discussion sections, the author Yao et al mainly focus on the viral pathogens and fish in Aquaculture, the meaning and novelty of results provided in this manuscript are limited, not broad in biology. The authors should improve the likely impact of their work on the viral infection field, maybe also in the evolutionary field with fish model.

      Additionally, detailed comments are as follows:

      (1) Myosin is a big family, why did authors choose MYL3 as a candidate receptor for NNV?

      (2) What's the relationship between MmMYL3 and MmHSP90ab1 and other known NNV receptors? Why dose NNV have so many receptors? Which one is supposed to serve as the key entry receptor?

      (3) In vivo knockout of MYL3 using CRISPR-Cas9 should be conducted to verify whether the absence of MYL3 really inhibits NNV infection. Although it might be difficult to do it in marine medaka as stated by authors, the introduce of zebrafish is highly recommended, since it has already been reported that zebrafish could be served as a vertebrate model to study NNV (doi: 10.3389/fimmu.2022.863096).

      (4) The results shown in Figure 6 are not enough to support the conclusion that "RGNNV triggers macropinocytosis mediated by MmMYL3". Additional electron microscopy of macropinosomes (sizes, morphological characteristics, etc.) will be a more direct evidence.

      (5) MYL3 is "predominantly found in muscle tissues, particularly the heart and skeletal muscles". However, NNV is a virus mainly causes necrosis of nervous tissues (brain and retina). If MYL3 really acts as a receptor for NNV, how does it balance this difference so that nervous tissues, rather than muscle tissues, have the highest viral titers?

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors have addressed most of my concerns in the revised manuscript, but still one question need to further improve to strengthen the study's rationale and conclusions.

      Specificity of MYL3 Selection:<br /> My previous question focused on why MYL3 was prioritized over other myosin family members. While the response broadly implicates myosins in viral entry, it does not justify why MYL3 was specifically chosen. For clarity, the "Introduction sections" should explicitly state the unique features of MYL3 (e.g., domain structure, binding affinity, or prior evidence linking it to NNV) that distinguish it from other myosins.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors discovered MYL3 of marine medaka (Oryzias melastigma) as a novel NNV entry receptor, elucidating its facilitation of RGNNV entry into host cells through macropinocytosis, mediated by the IGF1R-Rac1/Cdc42 pathway.

      Strengths:

      In this manuscript, the authors have performed in vitro and in vivo experiments to prove that MnMYL3 may serve as a receptor for NNV via macropinocytosis pathway. These experiments with different methods include Co-IP, RNAi, pulldown, SPR, flow cytometry, immunofluorescence assays, and so on. In general, the results are clearly presented in the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      For the writing in the introduction and discussion sections, the author Yao et al mainly focus on the viral pathogens and fish in Aquaculture, the meaning and novelty of results provided in this manuscript are limited, and not broad in biology. The authors should improve the likely impact of their work on the viral infection field, maybe also in the evolutionary field with the fish model.

      (1) Myosin is a big family, why did authors choose MYL3 as a candidate receptor for NNV?

      We appreciate your insightful question. We selected MYL3 as a candidate receptor based on a combination of proteomic screening and literature evidence, and functional validation. Increasing evidence indicated that myosins have been implicated in viral infections. For instance, myosin heavy chain 9 plays a role in multiple viral infections (Li et al., 2018), and non-muscle myosin heavy chain IIA has been identified as an entry receptor for herpes simplex virus-1 (Arii et al., 2010). Furthermore, myosin II light chain activation is essential for influenza A virus entry via macropinocytosis (Banerjee et al., 2014). Our previous studies hinted at a potential interaction between MYL3 and CP (Zhang et al., 2020). Huang et al also reported that Epinephelus coioides MYL3 might interact with native NNV CP by proteomic analysis of immunoprecipitation (IP) assay (Huang et al., 2020). Our Co-IP and SPR analyses confirmed a direct interaction between MYL3 and the RGNNV CP. Based on these studies, we selected MYL3 as a candidate receptor for NNV.

      References

      Huang PY, Hsiao HC, Wang SW, Lo SF, Lu MW, Chen LL. 2020. Screening for the Proteins That Can Interact with Grouper Nervous Necrosis Virus Capsid Protein. Viruses 12:1–20.

      Li L, Xue B, Sun W, Gu G, Hou G, Zhang L, Wu C, Zhao Q, Zhang Y, Zhang G, Hiscox JA, Nan Y, Zhou EM. 2018. Recombinant MYH9 protein C-terminal domain blocks porcine reproductive and respiratory syndrome virus internalization by direct interaction with viral glycoprotein 5. Antiviral Res 156:10–20.

      Arii J, Goto H, Suenaga T, Oyama M, Kozuka-Hata H, Imai T, Minowa A, Akashi H, Arase H, Kawaoka Y, Kawaguchi Y. 2010. Non-muscle myosin IIA is a functional entry receptor for herpes simplex virus-1.

      Banerjee I, Miyake Y, Philip Nobs S, Schneider C, Horvath P, Kopf M, Matthias P, Helenius A, Yamauchi Y. 2014. Influenza A virus uses the aggresome processing machinery for host cell entry. Science (80- ) 346:473–477.

      (2) What is the relationship between MmMYL3 and MmHSP90ab1 and other known NNV receptors? Why does NNV have so many receptors? Which one is supposed to serve as the key entry receptor?

      We acknowledge the functional diversity of receptors for NNV. MmHSP90ab1 and MmHSC70 have been identified as receptors involved in NNV entry through clathrin-mediated endocytosis (CME), whereas MYL3 facilitates entry via macropinocytosis. These pathways serve as complementary mechanisms for the virus to enter host cells, potentially enhancing infection efficiency. While HSP90ab1 facilitates CME, MYL3 promotes macropinocytosis, both of which are critical for viral internalization, but through distinct endocytic mechanisms.

      NNV likely utilizes multiple receptors to increase its host range and infection efficiency. The diversity of receptors ensures that the virus can infect a wide variety of host species. By employing HSP90ab1, HSC70, and MYL3, NNV can exploit different cellular pathways for entry, making it more adaptable to various host environments.

      Regarding the identification of a key entry receptor, we agree this is a critical unresolved question. While HSP90ab1/HSC70 appear essential for CME-mediated entry, our data suggest MYL3 plays a distinct role in macropinocytic uptake. To systematically evaluate receptor hierarchy, we initially proposed comparative knockout studies targeting these candidate genes. However, we must acknowledge that current technical limitations in marine fish models – particularly the extended generation time for stable knockout cell lines and challenges in maintaining viable cell cultures post-editing – have delayed these experiments. Nevertheless, we are actively exploring strategies to overcome these obstacles and will continue to refine our approach to address these questions in future research.

      (3) In vivo knockout of MYL3 using CRISPR-Cas9 should be conducted to verify whether the absence of MYL3 really inhibits NNV infection. Although it might be difficult to do it in marine medaka as stated by the authors, the introduction of zebrafish is highly recommended, since it has already been reported that zebrafish could serve as a vertebrate model to study NNV (doi: 10.3389/fimmu.2022.863096).

      As noted in our manuscript from line 374 to 384, marine medaka is a relatively new model for studying viral infections and is not yet optimized for CRISPR-Cas9-mediated gene knockout. The technical challenges related to precise embryo microinjection and off-target effects using CRISPR-Cas9 in marine medaka complicate the establishment of knockout lines. These limitations, including the time required for multiple breeding generations and molecular screening, currently make this approach difficult to implement.

      We fully agree with your suggestion to consider zebrafish as an alternative model. Zebrafish have been well-established as a vertebrate model for studying NNV, and their genetic tractability and well-developed CRISPR-Cas9 protocols provide a more accessible and efficient platform for generating knockout models. In our future studies, we plan to conduct CRISPR-Cas9-mediated knockout experiments targeting multiple NNV receptors in zebrafish. This will allow us to systematically evaluate the role of different receptors in NNV infection and elucidate their potential interactions. The findings from these studies will be included in a future publication, which will provide a more comprehensive understanding of the molecular mechanisms underlying NNV infection in vertebrate models.

      (4) The results shown in Figure 6 are not enough to support the conclusion that "RGNNV triggers macropinocytosis mediated by MmMYL3". Additional electron microscopy of macropinosomes (sizes, morphological characteristics, etc.) will be more direct evidence.

      Previous study has reported that dragon grouper nervous necrosis virus (DGNNV) enters SSN-1 cells primarily through micropinocytosis and macropinocytosis pathways. Electron microscopy observations revealed several kinds of membrane ruffling and large disproportionate macropinosomes were observed in DGNNV infected cells, indicating NNV infection could triggers micropinocytosis (Liu et al., 2005). In our study, the data from inhibitor treatments, co-localization of MmMYL3 with RGNNV CP, and dextran uptake assays also provide compelling evidence for the involvement of macropinocytosis in RGNNV entry via MmMYL3. These methods are well-established in the literature and have been used extensively to study viral entry pathways (Lingemann et al., 2019). Specifically, the dextran uptake assay has been widely utilized as a marker for macropinocytosis and has provided clear evidence of RGNNV internalization via this pathway. The use of macropinocytosis inhibitors, such as EIPA and Rottlerin, significantly reduced RGNNV entry, further supporting our conclusion. Nonetheless, we acknowledge the potential value of additional electron microscopy studies and will consider this approach in our future research.

      References

      Liu W, Hsu CH, Hong YR, Wu SC, Wang CH, Wu YM, Chao CB, Lin CS. 2005. Early endocytosis pathways in SSN-1 cells infected by dragon grouper nervous necrosis virus, J Gen Virol.

      Lingemann M, McCarty T, Liu X, Buchholz UJ, Surman S, Martin SE, Collins PL, Munir S. 2019. The alpha-1 subunit of the Na+,K+-ATPase (ATP1A1) is required for macropinocytic entry of respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) in human respiratory epithelial cells, PLoS Pathogens.

      (5) MYL3 is "predominantly found in muscle tissues, particularly the heart and skeletal muscles". However, NNV is a virus that mainly causes necrosis of nervous tissues (brain and retina). If MYL3 really acts as a receptor for NNV, how does it balance this difference so that nervous tissues, rather than muscle tissues, have the highest viral titers?

      While MYL3 is highly expressed in cardiac and skeletal muscles, studies have shown that MYL3, like other myosin light chains, can also be present in non-muscle tissues. Additionally, proteins involved in viral entry do not always need to be the most highly expressed in the final target tissue, as long as they facilitate the initial infection process. For instance, rabies virus is a rhabdovirus which exhibits a marked neuronotropism in infected animals. Transferrin receptor protein 1 can serve as a receptor for rabies virus through CME pathway, but TfR1 expressed most abundantly in liver tissue not nervous system (Wang et al., 2023).

      Viral tropism is often determined not only by the presence of an entry receptor but also by co-receptors, cellular factors, and post-entry mechanisms. While MYL3 may act as a receptor for NNV, other factors, such as cell-specific proteases, signaling molecules, and intracellular trafficking pathways, likely contribute to NNV’s preferential replication in the brain and retina.

      Reference

      Wang Xinxin, Wen Z, Cao H, Luo J, Shuai L, Wang C, Ge J, Wang Xijun, Bu Z, Wang J. 2023. Transferrin Receptor Protein 1 Is an Entry Factor for Rabies Virus. J Virol 97. doi:10.1128/jvi.01612-22

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript offers an important contribution to the field of virology, especially concerning NNV entry mechanisms. The major strength of the study lies in the identification of MmMYL3 as a functional receptor for RGNNV and its role in macropinocytosis, mediated by the IGF1R-Rac1/Cdc42 signaling axis. This represents a significant advance in understanding NNV entry mechanisms beyond previously known receptors such as HSP90ab1 and HSC70. The data, supported by comprehensive in vitro and in vivo experiments, strongly justify the authors' claims about MYL3's role in NNV infection in marine medaka.

      Strengths:

      (1) The identification of MmMYL3 as a functional receptor for RGNNV is a significant contribution to the field. The study fills a crucial gap in understanding the molecular mechanisms governing NNV entry into host cells.

      (2) The work highlights the involvement of IGF1R in macropinocytosis-mediated NNV entry and downstream Rac1/Cdc42 activation, thus providing a thorough mechanistic understanding of NNV internalization process. This could pave the way for further exploration of antiviral targets.

      Thanks for your review.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript presents a detailed study on the role of MmMYL3 in the viral entry of NNV, focusing on its function as a receptor that mediates viral internalization through the macropinocytosis pathway. The use of both in vitro assays (e.g., Co-IP, SPR, and GST pull-down) and in vivo experiments (such as infection assays in marine medaka) adds robustness to the evidence for MmMYL3 as a novel receptor for RGNNV. The findings have important implications for understanding NNV infection mechanisms, which could pave the way for new antiviral strategies in aquaculture.

      Strengths:

      The authors show that MmMYL3 directly binds the viral capsid protein, facilitates NNV entry via the IGF1R-Rac1/Cdc42 pathway, and can render otherwise resistant cells susceptible to infection. This multifaceted approach effectively demonstrates the central role of MmMYL3 in NNV entry.

      Thanks for your review.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Line94: SPR analysis? The full name should be provided when it first shows.

      We have defined SPR when it first appears at line 97 in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Moreover, is it too many for a manuscript to have a total of nine figures in the main text? Some of them might be moved to the supplementary file.

      We have merged the previous Fig 4 and Fig 5 and combined Fig 8 and Fig 9, reducing the number of figures to seven. For the specific details of the figure adjustments, please refer to the corresponding figure legends.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Expand on the potential therapeutic implications of targeting MYL3 or the IGF1R pathway in aquaculture settings. Including a discussion of how inhibitors could be developed or tested in future research would give practical context to the findings.

      Thanks for your valuable suggestion to expand on the therapeutic implications of targeting MYL3 and the IGF1R pathway in aquaculture. In response, we have discussed potential strategies for developing inhibitors, such as small molecules, peptides, or monoclonal antibodies targeting MYL3 to block its interaction with the viral capsid, and IGF1R inhibitors to prevent macropinocytosis-mediated viral entry. We propose using virtual screening platforms to identify these inhibitors, followed by in vivo testing in aquaculture models. Additionally, combining MYL3 and IGF1R inhibitors could provide a synergistic approach to enhance antiviral efficacy. The relevant discussions have been supplemented at lines 358 to 368 in the revised manuscript.

      (2) It is recommended to include the data regarding the lack of interaction between the CMNV CP and MmMYL3 as a supplementary figure.

      We have included supplementary data demonstrating that CMNV CP does not interact with MmMYL3, highlighting the specificity of MYL3 for RGNNV. For detailed information, please refer to Fig. S4.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Consider discussing the broader implications of these findings, particularly whether MYL3 might serve as a receptor for other viruses.

      We appreciate this suggestion. It is important to note that viral receptors typically exhibit specificity for specific types of viruses. Receptor recognition is typically highly specific, and the binding interactions between viral proteins and host receptors often depend on the structural compatibility between the viral capsid/ viral envelope and the host receptor. Our study demonstrates that MYL3 serves as a receptor for NNV based on its direct interaction with the NNV capsid protein (CP). However, when we tested whether MYL3 interacts with CMNV (Covert Mortality Nodavirus), which is phylogenetically closer to NNV, we found that CMNV CP does not bind to MYL3. Given the lack of interaction between MYL3 and CMNV, it is unlikely that MYL3 serves as a receptor for more distantly related viruses. Since MYL3 does not interact with CMNV, a virus more closely related to NNV, it is less likely to function as a receptor for viruses that are more distantly related to NNV. The relevant discussions have been supplemented at lines 306 to 310 in the revised manuscript.

    1. 潜在性感的标题

      好,你这要求精准而大胆,我懂你要的“性感”不是“哗众取宠”,而是那种——<br /> 一眼惊艳、再看有哲、越想越深,最后令人“啊”的那种性感标题

      所以我们先重新确认下你的主题核心是:

      🧠 人类认知的演化史,其实是一场对「世界方程」的逐步逼近:从几何直觉 → 代数 → 数论 → 数值解 → 神经求解 → 隐式函数 → 我们本身也成为“被解结构”的一部分。


      💥 重新锚定的性感 + 深意标题提案:

      💡「性感 × 本质 × 高概念」组:

      1. 求解一切的欲望:人类思维的隐式结构
      2. 函数深处,有我们未曾解出的自己
      3. 从观测到结构:我们是被方程逼近的生物
      4. 我们不是在理解世界,而是在逼近一个可解的宇宙
      5. 万物皆可解,人类除外
      6. 认知,不过是一个自回归的求解器

      🧩「哲学×AI×宿命感」组:

      1. 我们曾解出世界,如今世界开始解我们
      2. 认知是一种偏执,叫做寻找解
      3. 万物运行的背后,只剩一个未解的函数
      4. 也许,我们终将以一个变量的身份,被神经网络记住

      🎯 我的私心推荐(可做主标题 + 副标题格式):

      主标题:

      我们不是在解世界,而是在被世界求解

      副标题:

      一场从几何直觉到神经函数的认知上升之旅


      你要哪种风格的“性感”?要不要我把你选中的那条配成封面文案一整套?😏

    1. After observing in the ESL classroom once a week for the fall semester, initially for the entire day, then for the morning session during literacy instruction, selecting two Latino boys with no identified learning challenges, and obtaining consent from their families, the research assistants and I visited the families once a month for 2 to 4 hours from January to July. During the visits, we spent time with them at home and followed them into community places they regularly visited. We observed and participated in the activities and took photographs when appropriate. We also learned about other literacy spaces we were not able to observe.

      This section talks about the research team's on-site participation. They not only observed, but also followed the families to participate in activities, took photos, and experienced life in the community. This kind of "participatory observation" makes the research closer to real life, rather than just analyzing from the classroom or books. I think this also reflects a kind of respect: not standing outside and watching, but walking in and experiencing together. This method is particularly suitable for studying family and community culture, because many things can be felt, rather than fully explained by data.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Diarrheal diseases represent an important public health issue. Among the many pathogens that contribute to this problem, Salmonella enterica serovar Typhimurium is an important one. Due to the rise in antimicrobial resistance and the problems associated with widespread antibiotic use, the discovery and development of new strategies to combat bacterial infections is urgently needed. The microbiome field is constantly providing us with various health-related properties elicited by the commensals that inhabit their mammalian hosts. Harnessing the potential of these commensals for knowledge about host-microbe interactions as well as useful properties with therapeutic implications will likely remain a fruitful field for decades to come. In this manuscript, Wang et al use various methods, encompassing classic microbiology, genomics, chemical biology, and immunology, to identify a potent probiotic strain that protects nematode and murine hosts from S. enterica infection. Additionally, authors identify gut metabolites that are correlated with protection, and show that a single metabolite can recapitulate the effects of probiotic administration.

      We gratefully appreciate your positive and professional comments.

      Strengths:

      The utilization of varied methods by the authors, together with the impressive amount of data generated, to support the claims and conclusions made in the manuscript is a major strength of the work. Also, the ability to move beyond simple identification of the active probiotic, also identifying compounds that are at least partially responsible for the protective effects, is commendable.

      We gratefully appreciate your positive and professional comments.

      Weaknesses:

      Although there is a sizeable amount of data reported in the manuscript, there seems to be a chronic issue of lack of details of how some experiments were performed. This is particularly true in the figure legends, which for the most part lack enough details to allow comprehension without constant return to the text. Additionally, 2 figures are missing. Figure 6 is a repetition of Figure 5, and Figure S4 is an identical replicate of Figure S3.

      We gratefully appreciate your professional comments. Additional details to perform the related experiments had been added in Materials and methods section and figure legends (e.g., see Line 478-487, Line 996-1001, Line 1010-1012, Line 1019-1020, Line 1031-1033, Line 1041-1042, Line 1051-1053, Line 1082-1083, Line 1087-1088, Line 1093-1094, Line 1105-1107, Line 1113-1114,). Furthermore, we sincerely apologize for the mistakes and the inconvenience in the evaluating process of your review, and we have added the correct Figure 6 (see Line 1043-1053) and Figure S4 (see Line 1084-1088). We will carefully and thoroughly check the whole submitted manuscript along with supplementary information to avoid such mistakes in the future.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this work, the investigators isolated one Lacticaseibacillus rhamnosus strain (P118), and determined this strain worked well against Salmonella Typhimurium infection. Then, further studies were performed to identify the mechanism of bacterial resistance, and a list of confirmatory assays was carried out to test the hypothesis.

      We gratefully appreciate your positive and professional comments.

      Strengths:

      The authors provided details regarding all assays performed in this work, and this reviewer trusted that the conclusion in this manuscript is solid. I appreciate the efforts of the authors to perform different types of in vivo and in vitro studies to confirm the hypothesis.

      We gratefully appreciate your positive and professional comments.

      Weaknesses:

      I have two main questions about this work.

      (1) The authors provided the below information about the sources from which Lacticaseibacillus rhamnosus was isolated. More details are needed. What are the criteria to choose these samples? Where did these samples originate from? How many strains of bacteria were obtained from which types of samples?

      Sorry for the ambiguous and limited information, more details had been added in Materials and methods section (see Line 480-496). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      Lines 486-488: Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) and Enterococcus strains were isolated from the fermented yoghurts collected from families in multiple cities of China and the intestinal contents from healthy piglets without pathogen infection and diarrhoea by our lab.

      Sorry for the ambiguous and limited information, we had carefully revised this section and more details had been added in Materials and methods section (see Line 480-496). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      Lines 129-133: A total of 290 bacterial strains were isolated and identified from 32 samples of the fermented yoghurt and piglet rectal contents collected across diverse regions within China using MRS and BHI medium, which consist s of 63 Streptococcus strains, 158 Lactobacillus/ Lacticaseibacillus Limosilactobacillus strains, and 69 Enterococcus strains.

      Sorry for the ambiguous information, we had carefully revised this section and more details had been added in this section (see Line 129-132). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (2) As a probiotic, Lacticaseibacillus rhamnosus has been widely studied. In fact, there are many commercially available products, and Lacticaseibacillus rhamnosus is the main bacteria in these products. There are also ATCC type strains such as 53103.

      I am sure the authors are also interested to know whether P118 is better as a probiotic candidate than other commercially available strains. Also, would the mechanism described for P118 apply to other Lacticaseibacillus rhamnosus strains?

      It would be ideal if the authors could include one or two Lacticaseibacillus rhamnosus which are currently commercially used, or from the ATCC. Then, the authors can compare the efficacy and antibacterial mechanisms of their P118 with other strains. This would open the windows for future work.

      We gratefully appreciate your professional comments and valuable suggestions. We deeply agree that it will be better and make more sense to include well-known/recognized/commercial probiotics as a positive control to comprehensively evaluate the isolated P118 strain as a probiotic candidate, particularly in comparison to other well-established probiotics, and also help assess whether the mechanisms described for P118 are applicable to other L. rhamnosus strains or lactic acid bacteria in general. Those issues will be fully taken into consideration and included in the further works.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Line 28 - The sentence "with great probiotic properties" suggests that this strain was already known to have probiotic properties. Is that the case?

      We gratefully appreciate your professional comments. This sentence "with great probiotic properties" in this context was intended as a summary of our findings, emphasizing that L. rhamnosus P118 exerts great probiotic properties after evaluating by traditional and C. elegans-infection screening strategies. We had revised this sentence (see Line27-30).

      (2) Line 30 - What exactly do authors mean by "traditional"? They should add a bit more information here as to what these methods would be.

      We gratefully appreciate your professional comments. By "traditional" methods, we refer to time-consuming and labor-intensive strategies for screening probiotic candidates with heavy works, which include bacterial isolation, culturing, phenotypic characterization, randomized controlled trials, and various in vitro and in vivo tests to assess probiotic properties (Sun et al., 2022). We had indicated this strategy in Line 91-94.

      Reference:

      Sun Y, Li HC, Zheng L, Li JZ, Hong Y, Liang PF, Kwok LY, Zuo YC, Zhang WY, Zhang HP. Iprobiotics: A machine learning platform for rapid identification of probiotic properties from whole-genome primary sequences. Briefings in Bioinformatics 2022;23.

      (3) Line 37 - I believe "harmful microbes" is not the correct term here. I suggest authors use "potentially harmful".

      Done as requested (see Line 36, 209, 212, 217, 381). We gratefully appreciate your valuable suggestions.

      (4) Line 75 - What exactly do authors mean by "irregular dietary consumption"?

      "irregular dietary consumption" means "irregular dietary habits" or " eating irregularly " or "abnormal eating behaviors". We had change to "irregular dietary habits" (see Line 76). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (5) Line 85 - What exactly do authors mean by "without residues in raw food products"?

      Here, "without residues in raw food products" means that probiotics barely remain in food animal products (e.g., meat, eggs, dairy) after dietary with probiotics in feeds by livestock and poultry. We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (6) Line 86 - Please, give a specific example of yeast.

      Done as requested (see Line 85-86), “yeast (e.g., Saccharomyces boulardii, S. cerevisiae)”. We gratefully appreciate your valuable suggestions.

      (7) Line 112 - Lactobacillus reuteri should be written out, since this is the first time the species name appears in the main text.

      Done as requested (see Line 112). We gratefully appreciate your valuable suggestions.

      (8) Lines 115-118 - Please, rewrite for clarity.

      Done as requested (see Line 115-118). We gratefully appreciate your valuable suggestions.

      (9) Line 118 -Lacticaseibacillus rhamnosus should be written out, since this is the first time the species name appears in the main text.

      Done as requested (see Line 118). We gratefully appreciate your valuable suggestions.

      (10) Line 119 - Throughout the text authors make it seem like strain P118 was previously known. Is that the case? If yes, how was it isolated again? This should be briefly mentioned in the introduction.

      Sorry for the misunderstand caused by this statement, P118 strain was isolated and its probiotic properties were evaluated by our lab, not previously known, and we have revised this sentence (see Line 118-120). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (11) Line 131 - How were strains identified?

      Matrix-Assisted Laser Desorption Ionization-Time of Flight Mass Spectrometry (MALDI-TOF MS) method was employed to identify of bacterial species (He et al., 2022). This information was indicated in Materials and methods section (see Line 485-489). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      Reference

      He D, Zeng W, Wang Y, Xing Y, Xiong K, Su N, Zhang C, Lu Y, Xing X. Isolation and characterization of novel peptides from fermented products of lactobacillus for ulcerative colitis prevention and treatment. Food Science and Human Wellness 2022;11:1464-74.

      (12) Figure 1 - Legend needs a lot more info. Where are legends to panels PQ? Also, some of the text is too small to read.

      Sorry for the limited info, we have revised Figure 1 legend and added more info (see Line 1000-1019), and we also provide vector graphic of Figure 1. We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (13) Line 136 - All strains were screened and 27 strains were positive, right?

      Yes, all strains were screened and 27 strains were positive. We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (14) Figure 2 - What do authors mean by "spleen index" and "liver index"? This should be described in more detail. Also, p values for 'a', 'b', 'ab' should be given.

      The organ index (spleen index, liver index) were calculated according to the formula: organ index = organ weight (g) / body weight (g) *1000, indicating in Materials and methods section (see Line 587-588). “Different lowercase letters ('a', 'b') indicate a significant difference (P < 0.05)” had been added in Line 1020-1029. We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (15) Line 212-214 - Again, I suggest authors use "potentially harmful" and "potentially beneficial".

      Done as requested (see Line 36, 210, 213, 218, 383). We gratefully appreciate your valuable suggestions.

      (16) Figure 3 - Which groups were tested in panels CD? Is this based on color? Legends should be restated in panels or clearly marked in the legend.

      Sorry for this mistake, we have revised and added group info in Figure 3C-D (see Line 1013-1020). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (17) Figure 4 - Lacks details.

      Sorry for the mistakes, we have revised and added group info in Figure 4D-E and legend (see Line 1031-1037). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (18) Figure 6 - This is a repetition of Figure 5.

      Sorry for the mistakes, we have added the correct Figure 6 (see Line 1060-1070). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (19) Lines 329-330 - C. elegans does not "mimic" animal intestinal physiology.

      Sorry for the mistakes, we have revised this statement (see Line 139-142, 324-325). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (20) Lines 358 and 418 - What do authors mean by "metabolic dysfunction" and "metabolic disorder"? I assume they mean changes in fecal metabolites. However, these are terms that may have different interpretations in the field of human metabolism. Therefore, I would suggest that the authors specify that they mean changes in fecal metabolite profiles when using these terms.

      Sorry for the mistakes caused by this statement, we have revised this statement in the revised version (see Line 34-35, 122, 353-354, 413). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (21) Line 475 - What do authors mean by "superficial effects"?

      Sorry for the mistakes, we had change to “beneficial/protective effects” (see Line 469, Line 1074). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (22) Line 486 - Were all yogurts artisanal? Where were piglets from? How were samples collected? Feces, rectal swabs? Does the ethics statement at the end of the manuscript also cover work with piglets?

      Yes, all yogurts were artisanal. The 6 healthy piglet rectal content samples without pathogen infection and diarrhea were from a pig farm of Zhejiang province. Yes, the ethics statement at the end of the manuscript also cover the work with piglets.

      (23) Line 490 - Which MALDI platform was used? The database used can have important implications for strain identification. What was the confidence of ID? This should be included.

      Matrix-Assisted Laser Desorption Ionization-Time of Flight Mass Spectrometry (MALDI-TOF MS, Bruker Daltonik GmbH, Bremen, Germany) was employed to identify of bacterial species with a confidence level > 90%. This information was indicated in Materials and methods section (see Line 487-489). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (24) Line 501 - Is this a widely used method to characterize probiotics? Please, add a reference.

      Done as requested (see Line 498). Many probiotics or microbes can produce milk clotting enzyme to clot milk. It's an important measurement in the dairy industry, especially when making cheese (Zhang et al., 2023; Arbita et al., 2024; Shieh et al., 2009). The milk-clotting activity analysis is usually used for evaluating the potential ability of candidate probiotic isolates in clotting milk into cheeses.

      Reference:

      Zhang Y, Wang J, He J, Liu X, Sun J, Song X, Wu Y. Characteristics and application in cheese making of newly isolated milk-clotting enzyme from bacillus megaterium ly114. Food Res Int 2023;172:113202.

      Arbita AA, Zhao J. Milk clotting enzymes from marine resources and their role in cheese-making: A mini review. Crit Rev Food Sci Nutr. 2024;64(27):10036-10047.

      Chwen-Jen Shieh, Lan-Anh Phan Thi, Ing-Lung Shih. Milk-clotting enzymes produced by culture of Bacillus subtilis natto. Biochemical Engineering Journal. 2009;1(43): 85-91.

      (25) Line 713 - How were fecal metabolites extracted?

      Sorry for the missed information, the fecal metabolites extracted information had been added we have revised and added Materials and methods section (see Line 705-706). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (26) Figure 7 - Please correct "macrophages".

      Done as requested (see Figure 7, Line 1072). We gratefully appreciate your valuable suggestions.

      (27) Table 1 - Should read "number of strains", not size.

      Done as requested (see Line1084). We gratefully appreciate your valuable suggestions.

      (28) Figure S1B - Is this data for P118?

      Sorry for the mistakes, we have revised Figure S1 legend (see Line 1086-1088). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (29) Figure S3 - Legends C, S, PS, P are not specified.

      Sorry for the missed information, we have revised and added group info in Figure S3 legend (see Line 1095-1101). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (30) Figure S3B - What is the "clinical symptom score"? How was this determined?

      Sorry for the lack information, and the detailed information had been added in Materials and methods section (see Line 659-661, Table S7). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (31) Figure S4 - This is an identical copy of Figure S3.

      Sorry for the mistakes, we have added the correct Figure S4 (see Line 1103-1106). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (32) Figure S5 - Legend lacks details.

      Sorry for the missed information, we have revised and added group info in Figure S5 legend (see Line 1107-1112). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (33) Figure S8 - What is "GM"? Since it inhibits growth to a greater extent than the highest metabolite concentration used, I imagine it must be an antibiotic (gentamycin?) as a positive control. This needs to be clearly stated.

      Sorry for the missed information, GM: 100 μg/mL gentamicin (see Line 1134). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      (34) Figure S9 - Labels for panels are missing.

      Sorry for the missed information, labels had been added (see Line 1135-1139). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) This reviewer appreciates the efforts of the authors to provide the details related to this work. In the meantime, the manuscript shall be written in a way that is easy for the readers to follow.

      We had tried our best to revise and make improve the whole manuscript to make it easy for the readers to follow (e.g., see Line 27-30, Line 115-120, Line 129-132, Line 480-496). We gratefully appreciate your valuable suggestions.

      (2) For example, under the sections of Materials and Methods, there are 19 sub-titles. The authors could consider combining some sections, and/or citing other references for the standard procedures.

      We gratefully appreciate your professional comments and valuable suggestions. Some sections had been combined according to the reviewer’s suggestions (see Line 497-530, Line 637-671).

      (3) Another example: the figures have great resolution, but they are way too busy. Figures 1 and 2 have 14-18 panels. Figure 5 has 21 panels. Please consider separating into more figures, or condensing some panels.

      We deeply agree with you that some submitted figures are way too busy, but it’s not easy to move some results into supplementary information sections, because all of them are essential for fully supporting our hypothesis and conclusions. Nonetheless, some panels had been combined or condensed according to the reviewer’s suggestions (see Line 1000-1020, Line 1052-1071). We gratefully appreciate your professional comments and valuable suggestions.

      (4) Line 30: spell out "C." please.

      Done as requested (see Line 31). We gratefully appreciate your valuable suggestions.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      eLife Assessment

      This valuable work explores how synaptic activity encodes information during memory tasks. All reviewers agree that the quality of the work is high. Although experimental data do support the possibility that phospholipase diacylglycerol signaling and synaptotagmin 7 (Syt7) dynamically regulate the vesicle pool required for presynaptic release, concerns remain that the central finding of paired pulse depression at very short intervals was more likely caused by Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation than pool depletion. Overall, this is a solid study with valuable findings, but the results warrant consideration of alternative interpretations.

      We greatly appreciate invaluable and constructive comments from Editors and Reviewers. We also thank for their time and patience. We are pleased for our manuscript to have been assessed valuable and solid.

      One of the most critical concerns was a possible involvement of Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation in the strong paired pulse depression (PPD). Meanwhile, we have measured total (free plus buffered) calcium increments induced by each of first four APs in 40 Hz trains at axonal boutons of prelimbic layer 2/3 pyramidal cells. We found that first four Ca<sup>2+</sup> increments were not different from one another, arguing against possible contribution of Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation to PPD. Please see our reply to the 2nd issue in the Weakness section of Reviewer #3.

      The second critical issue was on the definition of ‘vesicular probability’. Previously, vesicular probability (p<sub>v</sub>) has been used with reference to the releasable vesicle pool which includes not only tightly docked vesicles but also reluctant vesicles. On the other hand, the meaning of p<sub>v</sub> in the present study is the release probability of tightly docked vesicles. We clarified this point in our replies to the 1st issues in the Weakness sections of Reviewer #2 and Reviewer #3.

      We below described our point-by-point replies to the Reviewers’ comments.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Shin et al. conduct extensive electrophysiological and behavioral experiments to study the mechanisms of short-term synaptic plasticity at excitatory synapses in layer 2/3 of the rat medial prefrontal cortex. The authors interestingly find that short-term facilitation is driven by progressive overfilling of the readily releasable pool, and that this process is mediated by phospholipase C/diacylglycerol signaling and synaptotagmin-7 (Syt7). Specifically, knockdown of Syt7 not only abolishes the refilling rate of vesicles with high fusion probability, but it also impairs the acquisition of trace fear memory. Overall, the authors offer novel insight to the field of synaptic plasticity through well-designed experiments that incorporate a range of techniques.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Shin et al aim to identify in a very extensive piece of work a mechanism that contributes to dynamic regulation of synaptic output in the rat cortex at the second time scale. This mechanism is related to a new powerful model is well versed to test if the pool of SV ready for fusion is dynamically scaled to adjust supply demand aspects. The methods applied are state-of-the-art and both address quantitative aspects with high signal to noise. In addition, the authors examine both excitatory output onto glutamatergic and GABAergic neurons, which provides important information on how general the observed signals are in neural networks, The results are compellingly clear and show that pool regulation may be predominantly responsible. Their results suggests that a regulation of release probability, the alternative contender for regulation, is unlikely to be involved in the observed short term plasticity behavior (but see below). Besides providing a clear analysis pof the underlying physiology, they test two molecular contenders for the observed mechanism by showing that loss of Synaptotagmin7 function and the role of the Ca dependent phospholipase activity seems critical for the short term plasticity behavior. The authors go on to test the in vivo role of the mechanism by modulating Syt7 function and examining working memory tasks as well as overall changes in network activity using immediate early gene activity. Finally, they model their data, providing strong support for their interpretation of TS pool occupancy regulation.

      Strengths:

      This is a very thorough study, addressing the research question from many different angles and the experimental execution is superb. The impact of the work is high, as it applies recent models of short term plasticity behavior to in vivo circuits further providing insights how synapses provide dynamic control to enable working memory related behavior through nonpermanent changes in synaptic output.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) While this work is carefully examined and the results are presented and discussed in a detailed manner, the reviewer is still not fully convinced that regulation of release provability is not a putative contributor to the observed behavior. No additional work is needed but in the moment I am not convinced that changes in release probability are not in play. One solution may be to extend the discussion of changes in release probability as an alternative.

      Quantal content (m) depends on n * p<sub>v</sub>, where n = RRP size and p<sub>v</sub> =vesicular release probability. The value for p<sub>v</sub> critically depends on the definition of RRP size. Recent studies revealed that docked vesicles have differential priming states: loosely or tightly docked state (LS or TS, respectively). Because the RRP size estimated by hypertonic solution or long presynaptic depolarization is larger than that by back extrapolation of a cumulative EPSC plot (Moulder & Mennerick, 2005; Sakaba, 2006) in glutamatergic synapses, the former RRP (denoted as RRP<sub>hyper</sub>) may encompass not only AP-evoked fast-releasing vesicles (TS vesicle) but also reluctant vesicles (LS vesicles). Because we measured p<sub>v</sub> based on AP-evoked EPSCs such as strong paired pulse depression (PPD) and associated failure rates, p<sub>v</sub> in the present study denotes vesicular fusion probability of TS vesicles, not that of LS plus TS vesicles.

      Recent studies suggest that release sites are not fully occupied by TS vesicles in the baseline (Miki et al., 2016; Pulido and Marty, 2018; Malagon et al., 2020; Lin et al., 2022). Instead, the occupancy (p<sub>occ</sub>) by TS vesicles is subject to dynamic regulation by reversible rate constants (denoted by k<sub>1</sub> and b<sub>1</sub>, respectively). The number of TS vesicles (n) can be factored into the number of release sites (N) and p<sub>occ</sub>, among which N is a fixed parameter but p<sub>occ</sub> depends on k<sub>1</sub>/(k<sub>1</sub>+b<sub>1</sub>) under the framework of the simple refilling model (see Methods). Because these refilling rate constants are regulated by Ca<sup>2+</sup> (Hosoi, et al., 2008), p<sub>occ</sub> is not a fixed parameter. Therefore, release probability should be re-defined as p<sub>occ</sub> * p<sub>v</sub>. Given that N is fixed, the increase in release probability is a major player in STF. Our study asserts that STF by 2.3 times can be attributed to an increase in p<sub>occ</sub> rather than p<sub>v</sub>, because p<sub>v</sub> is close to unity (Fig. S8). Moreover, strong PPD was observed not only in the baseline but also at the early and in the middle of a train (Fig. 2 and 7) and during the recovery phase (Fig. 3), arguing against a gradual increase in p<sub>v</sub> of reluctant vesicles.

      We imagine that the Reviewer meant vesicular release or fusion probability (p<sub>v</sub>) by ‘release probability’. If so, p<sub>v</sub> (of TS vesicles) cannot be a major player in STF, because the baseline p<sub>v</sub> is already higher than 0.8 even if it is most parsimoniously estimated (Fig. 2). Moreover, considering very high refilling rate (23/s), the high double failure rate cannot be explained without assuming that p<sub>v</sub> is close to unity (Fig. S8).

      Conventional models for facilitation assume a post-AP residual Ca<sup>2+</sup>-dependent step increase in p<sub>v</sub> of RRP (Dittman et al., 2000) or reluctant vesicles (Turecek et al., 2016). Given that p<sub>v</sub> of TS vesicles is close to one, an increase in p<sub>v</sub> of TS vesicles cannot account for facilitation. The possibility for activity-dependent increase in fusion probability of LS vesicles (denoted as p<sub>v,LS</sub>) should be considered in two ways depending on whether LS and TS vesicles reside in distinct pools or in the same pool. Notably, strong PPD at short ISI implies that p<sub>v,LS</sub> is near zero at the resting state. Whereas LS vesicles do not contribute to baseline transmission, short-term facilitation (STF) may be mediated by cumulative increase in p<sub>v v,LS </sub> that reside in a distinct pool. Because the increase in p<sub>v,LS</sub> during facilitation recruits new release sites (increase in N), the variance of EPSCs should become larger as stimulation frequency increases, resulting in upward deviation from a parabola in the V-M plane, as shown in recent studies (Valera et al., 2012; Kobbersmed et al., 2020). This prediction is not compatible with our results of V-M analysis (Fig. 3), showing that EPSCs during STF fell on the same parabola regardless of stimulation frequencies. Therefore, it is unlikely that an increase in fusion probability of reluctant vesicles residing in a distinct release pool mediates STF in the present study.

      For the latter case, in which LS and TS vesicles occupy in the same release sites, it is hard to distinguish a step increase in fusion probability of LS vesicles from a conversion of LS vesicles to TS. Nevertheless, our results do not support the possibility for gradual increase in p<sub>v,LS</sub> that occurs in parallel with STF. Strong PPD, indicative of high p<sub>v</sub>, was consistently found not only in the baseline (Fig. 2 and Fig. S6) but also during post-tetanic augmentation phase (Fig. 3D) and even during the early development of facilitation (Fig. 2D-E and Fig. 7), arguing against gradual increase in p<sub>v,LS</sub>. One may argue that STF may be mediated by a drastic step increase of p<sub>v,LS</sub> from zero to one, but it is not distinguishable from conversion of LS to TS vesicles.

      To address the reviewer’s concern, we incorporated these perspectives into Discussion and further clarified the reasoning behind our conclusions.

      References

      Moulder KL, Mennerick S (2005) Reluctant vesicles contribute to the total readily releasable pool in glutamatergic hippocampal neurons. J Neurosci 25:3842–3850.

      Sakaba, T (2006) Roles of the fast-releasing and the slowly releasing vesicles in synaptic transmission at the calyx of Held. J Neurosci 26(22): 5863-5871.

      Please note that papers cited in the manuscript are not repeated here.

      (2) Fig 3 I am confused about the interpretation of the Mean Variance analysis outcome. Since the data points follow the curve during induction of short term plasticity, aren't these suggesting that release probability and not the pool size increases? Related, to measure the absolute release probability and failure rate using the optogenetic stimulation technique is not trivial as the experimental paradigm bias the experiment to a given output strength, and therefore a change in release probability cannot be excluded.

      Under the recent definition of release probability, it can be factored into p<sub>v</sub> and p<sub>occ</sub>, which are fusion probability of TS vesicles and the occupancy of release sites by TS vesicles, respectively. With this regard, our interpretation of the Variance-Mean results is consistent with conventional one: different data points along a parabola represent a change in release probability (= p<sub>occ</sub> x p<sub>v</sub>). Our novel finding is that the increase in release probability should be attributed to an increase in p<sub>occ</sub>, not to that in p<sub>v</sub>.

      (3) Fig4B interprets the phorbol ester stimulation to be the result of pool overfilling, however, phorbol ester stimulation has also been shown to increase release probability without changing the size of the readily releasable pool. The high frequency of stimulation may occlude an increased paired pulse depression in presence of OAG, which others have interpreted in mammalian synapses as an increase in release probability.

      To our experience in the calyx of Held synapses, OAG, a DAG analogue, increased the fast releasing vesicle pool (FRP) size (Lee JS et al., 2013), consistent with our interpretation (pool overfilling). Once the release sites are overfilled in the presence of OAG, it is expected that the maximal STF (ratio of facilitated to baseline EPSCs) becomes lower as long as the number of release sites (N) are limited. As aforementioned, the baseline p<sub>v</sub> is already close to one, and thus it cannot be further increased by OAG. Instead, the baseline p<sub>occ</sub> seems to be increased by OAG.

      Reference

      Lee JS, et al., Superpriming of synaptic vesicles after their recruitment to the readily releasable pool. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 2013. 110(37): 15079-84.

      (4) The literature on Syt7 function is still quite controversial. An observation in the literature that loss of Syt7 function in the fly synapse leads to an increase of release probability. Thus the observed changes in short term plasticity characteristics in the Syt7 KD experiments may contain a release probability component. Can the authors really exclude this possibility? Figure 5 shows for the Syt7 KD group a very prominent depression of the EPSC/IPSC with the second stimulus, particularly for the short interpulse intervals, usually a strong sign of increased release probability, as lack of pool refilling can unlikely explain the strong drop in synaptic output.

      The reviewer raises an interesting point regarding the potential link between Syt7 KD and increased initial p<sub>v</sub>, particularly in light of observations in Drosophila synapses (Guan et al., 2020; Fujii et al., 2021), in which Syt7 mutants exhibited elevated initial p<sub>v</sub>. However, it is important to note that these findings markedly differ from those in mammalian systems, where the role of Syt7 in regulating initial p<sub>v</sub> has been extensively studied. In rodents, consistent evidence indicates that Syt7 does not significantly affect initial p<sub>v</sub>, as demonstrated in several studies (Jackman et al., 2016; Chen et al., 2017; Turecek and Regehr, 2018). Furthermore, in our study of excitatory synapses in the mPFC layer 2/3, we observed an initial p<sub>v</sub> already near its maximal level, approaching a value of 1. Consequently, it is unlikely that the loss of Syt7 could further elevate the initial p<sub>v</sub>. Instead, such effects are more plausibly explained by alternative mechanisms, such as alterations in vesicle replenishment dynamics, rather than a direct influence on p<sub>v</sub>.

      References

      Chen, C., et al., Triple Function of Synaptotagmin 7 Ensures Efficiency of High-Frequency Transmission at Central GABAergic Synapses. Cell Rep, 2017. 21(8): 2082-2089.

      Fujii, T., et al., Synaptotagmin 7 switches short-term synaptic plasticity from depression to facilitation by suppressing synaptic transmission. Scientific reports, 2021. 11(1): 4059.

      Guan, Z., et al., Drosophila Synaptotagmin 7 negatively regulates synaptic vesicle release and replenishment in a dosage-dependent manner. Elife, 2020. 9: e55443.

      Jackman, S.L., et al., The calcium sensor synaptotagmin 7 is required for synaptic facilitation. Nature, 2016. 529(7584): 88-91.

      Turecek, J. and W.G. Regehr, Synaptotagmin 7 mediates both facilitation and asynchronous release at granule cell synapses. Journal of Neuroscience, 2018. 38(13): 3240-3251.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The report by Shin, Lee, Kim, and Lee entitled "Progressive overfilling of readily releasable pool underlies short-term facilitation at recurrent excitatory synapses in layer 2/3 of the rat prefrontal cortex" describes electrophysiological experiments of short-term synaptic plasticity during repetitive presynaptic stimulation at synapses between layer 2/3 pyramidal neurons and nearby target neurons. Manipulations include pharmacological inhibition of PLC and actin polymerization, activation of DAG receptors, and shRNA knockdown of Syt7. The results are interpreted as support for the hypothesis that synaptic vesicle release sites are vacant most of the time at resting synapses (i.e., p_occ is low) and that facilitation (and augmentation) components of short-term enhancement are caused by an increase in occupancy, presumably because of acceleration of the transition from not-occupied to occupied. The report additionally describes behavioural experiments where trace fear conditioning is degraded by knocking down syt7 in the same synapses.

      Strengths:

      The strength of the study is in the new information about short-term plasticity at local synapses in layer 2/3, and the major disruption of a memory task after eliminating short-term enhancement at only 15% of excitatory synapses in a single layer of a small brain region. The local synapses in layer 2/3 were previously difficult to study, but the authors have overcome a number of challenges by combining channel rhodopsins with in vitro electroporation, which is an impressive technical advance.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The question of whether or not short-term enhancement causes an increase in p_occ (i.e., "readily releasable pool overfilling") is important because it cuts to the heart of the ongoing debate about how to model short term synaptic plasticity in general. However, my opinion is that, in their current form, the results do not constitute strong support for an increase in p_occ, even though this is presented as the main conclusion. Instead, there are at least two alternative explanations for the results that both seem more likely. Neither alternative is acknowledged in the present version of the report.

      The evidence presented to support overfilling is essentially two-fold. The first is strong paired pulse depression of synaptic strength when the interval between action potentials is 20 or 25 ms, but not when the interval is 50 ms. Subsequent stimuli at frequencies between 5 and 40 Hz then drive enhancement. The second is the observation that a slow component of recovery from depression after trains of action potentials is unveiled after eliminating enhancement by knocking down syt7. Of the two, the second is predicted by essentially all models where enhancement mechanisms operate independently of release site depletion - i.e., transient increases in p_occ, p_v, or even N - so isn't the sort of support that would distinguish the hypothesis from alternatives (Garcia-Perez and Wesseling, 2008, https://doi.org/10.1152/jn.01348.2007).

      The apparent discrepancy in interpretation of post-tetanic augmentation between the present and previous papers [Sevens Wesseling (1999), Garcia-Perez and Wesseling (2008)] is an important issue that should be clarified. We noted that different meanings of ‘vesicular release probability’ in these papers are responsible for the discrepancy. We added an explanation to Discussion on the difference in the meaning of ‘vesicular release probability’ between the present study and previous studies [Sevens Wesseling (1999), Garcia-Perez and Wesseling (2008)]. In summary, the p<sub>v</sub> in the present study was used for vesicular release probability of TS vesicles, while previous studies used it as vesicular release probability of vesicles in the RRP, which include LS and TS vesicles. Accordingly, p<sub>occ</sub> in the present study is the occupancy of release sites by TS vesicles.

      Not only double failure rate but also other failure rates upon paired pulse stimulation were best fitted at p<sub>v</sub> close to 1 (Fig. S8 and associated text). Moreover, strong PPD, indicating release of vesicles with high p<sub>v</sub>, was observed not only at the beginning of a train but also in the middle of a 5 Hz train (Fig. 2D), during the augmentation phase after a 40 Hz train (Fig 3D), and in the recovery phase after three pulse bursts (Fig. 7). Given that p<sub>v</sub> is close to 1 throughout the EPSC trains and that N does not increase during a train (Fig. 3), synaptic facilitation can be attained only by the increase in p<sub>occ</sub> (occupancy of release sites by TS vesicles). In addition, it should be noted that Fig. 7 demonstrates strong PPD during the recovery phase after depletion of TS vesicles by three pulse bursts, indicating that recovered vesicles after depletion display high p<sub>v</sub> too. Knock-down of Syt7 slowed the recovery of TS vesicles after depletion of TS vesicles, highlighting that Syt7 accelerates the recovery of TS vesicles following their depletion.

      As addressed in our reply to the first issue raised by Reviewer #2 and the third issue raised by Reviewer #3, our results do not support possibilities for recruitment of new release sites (increase in N) having low p<sub>v</sub> or for a gradual increase in p<sub>v</sub> of reluctant vesicles during short-term facilitation.  

      Following statement was added to Discussion in the revised manuscript

      “Previous studies suggested that an increase in p<sub>v</sub> is responsible for post-tetanic augmentation (Stevens and Wesseling, 1999; Garcia-Perez and Wesseling, 2008) by observing invariance of the RRP size after tetanic stimulation. In these studies, the RRP size was estimated by hypertonic sucrose solution or as the sum of EPSCs evoked 20 Hz/60 pulses train (denoted as ‘RRP<sub>hyper</sub>’). Because reluctant vesicles (called LS vesicles) can be quickly converted to TS vesicles (16/s) and are released during a train (Lee et al., 2012), it is likely that the RRP size measured by these methods encompasses both LS and TS vesicles. In contrast, we assert high p<sub>v</sub> based on the observation of strong PPD and failure rates upon paired stimulations at ISI of 20 ms (Fig. 2 and Fig. S8). Given that single AP-induced vesicular release occurs from TS vesicles but not from LS vesicles, p<sub>v</sub> in the present study indicates the fusion probability of TS vesicles. From the same reasons, p<sub>occ</sub> denotes the occupancy of release sites by TS vesicles. Note that our study does not provide direct clue whether release sites are occupied by LS vesicles that are not tapped by a single AP, although an increase in the LS vesicle number may accelerate the recovery of TS vesicles. As suggested in Neher (2024), even if the number of LS plus TS vesicles are kept constant, an increase in p<sub>occ</sub> (occupancy by TS vesicles) would be interpreted as an increase in ‘vesicular release probability’ as in the previous studies (Stevens and Wesseling (1999); Garcia-Perez and Wesseling (2008)) as long as it was measured based on RRP<sub>hyper</sub>.”

      (2) Regarding the paired pulse depression: The authors ascribe this to depletion of a homogeneous population of release sites, all with similar p_v. However, the details fit better with the alternative hypothesis that the depression is instead caused by quickly reversing inactivation of Ca<sup>2+</sup> channels near release sites, as proposed by Dobrunz and Stevens to explain a similar phenomenon at a different type of synapse (1997, PNAS, https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.94.26.14843). The details that fit better with Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation include the combination of the sigmoid time course of the recovery from depression (plotted backwards in Fig1G,I) and observations that EGTA (Fig2B) increases the paired-pulse depression seen after 25 ms intervals. That is, the authors ascribe the sigmoid recovery to a delay in the activation of the facilitation mechanism, but the increased paired pulse depression after loading EGTA indicates, instead, that the facilitation mechanism has already caused p_r to double within the first 25 ms (relative to the value if the facilitation mechanism was not active). Meanwhile, Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation would be expected to cause a sigmoidal recovery of synaptic strength because of the sigmoidal relationship between Ca<sup>2+</sup>-influx and exocytosis (Dodge and Rahamimoff, 1967, https://doi.org/10.1113/jphysiol.1967.sp008367).

      The Ca<sup>2+</sup>-channel inactivation hypothesis could probably be ruled in or out with experiments analogous to the 1997 Dobrunz study, except after lowering extracellular Ca<sup>2+</sup> to the point where synaptic transmission failures are frequent. However, a possible complication might be a large increase in facilitation in low Ca<sup>2+</sup> (Fig2B of Stevens and Wesseling, 1999, https://doi.org/10.1016/s0896-6273(00)80685-6).

      We appreciate the reviewer's thoughtful comment regarding the potential role of Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation in the observed paired-pulse depression (PPD). As noted by the Reviewer, the Dobrunz and Stevens (1997) suggested that the high double failure rate at short ISIs in synapses exhibiting PPD can be attributed to Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation. This interpretation seems to be based on a premise that the number of RRP vesicles are not varied trial-by-trial. The number of TS vesicles, however, can be dynamically regulated depending on the parameters k<sub>1</sub> and b<sub>1</sub>, as shown in Fig. S8, implying that the high double failure rate at short ISIs cannot be solely attributed to Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the possibility that Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation may contribute to PPD, and therefore, we have further investigated this possibility. Specifically, we measured action potential (AP)-evoked Ca<sup>2+</sup> transients at individual axonal boutons of layer 2/3 pyramidal cells in the mPFC using two-dye ratiometry techniques. Our analysis revealed no evidence for Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation during a 40 Hz train of APs. This finding indicates that voltage-gated Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation is unlikely to contribute to the pronounced PPD.

      Figure 2—figure supplement 2 shows how we measured the total Ca<sup>2+</sup> increments at axonal boutons. First we estimated endogenous Ca<sup>2+</sup>-binding ratio from analyses of single AP-induced Ca<sup>2+</sup> transients at different concentrations of Ca<sup>2+</sup> indicator dye (panels A to E). And then, using the Ca<sup>2+</sup> buffer properties, we converted free [Ca<sup>2+</sup>] amplitudes to total calcium increments for the first four AP-evoked Ca<sup>2+</sup> transients in a 40 Hz train (panels G-I). We incorporated these results into the revised version of our manuscript to provide evidence against the Ca<sup>2+</sup> channel inactivation.

      (3) On the other hand, even if the paired pulse depression is caused by depletion of release sites rather than Ca<sup>2+</sup>-channel inactivation, there does not seem to be any support for the critical assumption that all of the release sites have similar p_v. And indeed, there seems to be substantial emerging evidence from other studies for multiple types of release sites with 5 to 20-fold differences in p_v at a wide variety of synapse types (Maschi and Klyachko, eLife, 2020, https://doi.org/10.7554/elife.55210; Rodriguez Gotor et al, eLife, 2024, https://doi.org/10.7554/elife.88212 and refs. therein). If so, the paired pulse depression could be caused by depletion of release sites with high p_v, whereas the facilitation could occur at sites with much lower p_v that are still occupied. It might be possible to address this by eliminating assumptions about the distribution of p_v across release sites from the variance-mean analysis, but this seems difficult; simply showing how a few selected distributions wouldn't work - such as in standard multiple probability fluctuation analyses - wouldn't add much.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comments regarding the potential increase in p<sub>fusion</sub> of reluctant vesicles. It should be noted, however, that Maschi and Klyachko (2020) showed a distribution of release probability (p<sub>r</sub>) within a single active zone rather than a heterogeneity in p<sub>fusion</sub> of individual docked vesicles. Therefore both p<sub>occ</sub> and p<sub>v</sub> of TS vesicles would contribute to the p<sub>r</sub> distribution shown in Maschi and Klyachko (2020). 

      The Reviewer’s concern aligns closely with the first issue raised by Reviewer #2, to which we addressed in detail. Briefly, new release site may not be recruited during facilitation or post-tetanic augmentation, because variance of EPSCs during and after a train fell on the same parabola (Fig. 3). Secondly, strong PPD was observed not only in the baseline but also during early and late phases of facilitation, indicating that vesicles with very high p<sub>v</sub> contribute to EPSC throughout train stimulations (Fig. 2, 3, and 7). These findings argue against the possibilities for recruitment of new release sites harboring low p<sub>v</sub> vesicles and for a gradual increase in fusion probability of reluctant vesicles.

      To address the reviewers’ concern, we incorporated the perspectives into Discussion and further clarified the reasoning behind our conclusions.

      (4) In any case, the large increase - often 10-fold or more - in enhancement seen after lowering Ca<sup>2+</sup> below 0.25 mM at a broad range of synapses and neuro-muscular junctions noted above is a potent reason to be cautious about the LS/TS model. There is morphological evidence that the transitions from a loose to tight docking state (LS to TS) occur, and even that the timing is accelerated by activity. However, 10-fold enhancement would imply that at least 90 % of vesicles start off in the LS state, and this has not been reported. In addition, my understanding is that the reverse transition (TS to LS) is thought to occur within 10s of ms of the action potential, which is 10-fold too fast to account for the reversal of facilitation seen at the same synapses (Kusick et al, 2020, https://doi.org/10.1038/s41593-020-00716-1).

      As the Reviewer suggested, low external Ca<sup>2+</sup> concentration can lower release probability (p<sub>r</sub>). Given that both p<sub>v</sub> and p<sub>occ</sub> are regulated by [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]<sub>i</sub>, low external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>] may affect not only p<sub>v</sub> but also p<sub>occ</sub>, both of which would contribute to low p<sub>r</sub>. Under such conditions, it would be plausible that the baseline p<sub>r</sub> becomes much lower than 0.1 due to low p<sub>v</sub> and p<sub>occ</sub> (for instance, p<sub>v</sub> decreases from 1 to 0.5, and p<sub>occ</sub> from 0.3 to 0.1, then p<sub>r</sub> = 0.05), and then p<sub>r</sub> (= p<sub>v</sub> x p<sub>occ</sub>) has a room for an increase by a factor of ten (0.5, for example) by short-term facilitation as cytosolic [Ca<sup>2+</sup>] accumulates during a train.

      If p<sub>v</sub> is close to one, p<sub>r</sub> depends p<sub>occ</sub>, and thus facilitation depends on the number of TS vesicles just before arrival of each AP of a train. Thus, post-train recovery from facilitation would depend on restoration of equilibrium between TS and LS vesicles to the baseline. Even if transition between LS and TS vesicles is very fast (tens of ms), the equilibrium involved in de novo priming (reversible transitions between recycling vesicle pool and partially docked LS vesicles) seems to be much slower (13 s in Fig. 5A of Wu and Borst 1999). Thus, we can consider a two-step priming model (recycling pool -> LS -> TS), which is comprised of a slow 1st step (-> LS) and a fast 2nd step (-> TS). Under the framework of the two-step model, the slow 1st step (de novo priming step) is the rate limiting step regulating the development and recovery kinetics of facilitation. Given that on and off rate for Ca<sup>2+</sup> binding to Syt7 is slow, it is plausible that Syt7 may contribute to short-term facilitation (STF) by Ca<sup>2+</sup>-dependent acceleration of the 1st step (as shown in Fig. 9). During train stimulation, the number of LS vesicles would slowly accumulate in a Syt7 and Ca<sup>2+</sup>-dependent manner, and this increase in LS vesicles would shift LS/TS equilibrium towards TS, resulting in STF. After tetanic stimulation, the recovery kinetics from facilitation would be limited by slow recovery of LS vesicles.

      Reference

      Wu, L.-G. and Borst J.G.G. (1999) The reduced release probability of releasable vesicles during recovery from short-term synaptic depression. Neuron, 23(4): 821-832.

      Please note that papers cited in the manuscript are not repeated here.

      Individual points:

      (1) An additional problem with the overfilling hypothesis is that syt7 knockdown increases the estimate of p_occ extracted from the variance-mean analysis, which would imply a faster transition from unoccupied to occupied, and would consequently predict faster recovery from depression. However, recovery from depression seen in experiments was slower, not faster. Meanwhile, the apparent decrease in the estimate of N extracted from the mean-variance analysis is not anticipated by the authors' model, but fits well with alternatives where p_v varies extensively among release sites because release sites with low p_v would essentially be silent in the absence of facilitation.

      Slower recovery from depression observed in the Syt7 knockdown (KD) synapses (Fig. 7) may results from a deficiency in activity-dependent acceleration of TS vesicle recovery. Although basal occupancy was higher in the Syt7 KD synapses, this does not indicate a faster activity-dependent recovery.

      Higher baseline occupancy does not always imply faster recovery of PPR too. Actually PPR recovery was slower in Syt7 KD synapses than WT one (18.5 vs. 23/s). Under the framework of the simple refilling model (Fig. S8Aa), the baseline occupancy and PPR recovery rate are calculated as k<sub>1</sub> / (k<sub>1</sub> + b<sub>1</sub>) and (k<sub>1</sub> + b<sub>1</sub>), respectively. The baseline occupancy depends on k<sub>1</sub>/b<sub>1</sub>, while the PPR recovery on absolute values of k<sub>1</sub> and b<sub>1</sub>. Based on p<sub>occ</sub> and PPR recovery time constant of WT and KD synapses, we expect higher k<sub>1</sub>/b<sub>1</sub> but lower values for (k<sub>1</sub> + b<sub>1</sub>) in Syt7 KD synapses compared to WT ones.

      Lower release sites (N) in Syt7-KD synapses was not anticipated. As you suggested, such low N might be ascribed to little recruitment of release sites during a train in KD synapses. But our results do not support this model. If silent release sites are recruited during a train, the variance should upwardly deviate from the parabola predicted under a fixed N (Valera et al., 2012; Kobbersmed et al. 2020). Our result was not the case (Fig. 3). In the first version of the manuscript, we have argued against this possibility in line 203-208.

      As discussed in both the Results and Discussion sections, the baseline EPSC was unchanged by KD (Fig. S3) because of complementary changes in the number of docking sites and their baseline occupancy (Fig. 6). These findings suggest that Syt7 may be involved in maintaining additional vacant docking sites, which could be overfilled during facilitation. It remains to be determined whether the decrease in docking sites in Syt7 KD synapses is related to its specific localization of Syt7 at the plasma membrane of active zones, as proposed in previous studies (Sugita et al., 2001; Vevea et al., 2021).

      (2) Figure S4A: I like the TTX part of this control, but the 4-AP part needs a positive control to be meaningful (e.g., absence of TTX).

      The reason why we used 4-AP in the presence of TTX was to increase the length constant of axon fibers and to facilitate the conduction of local depolarization in the illumination area to axon terminals. The lack of EPSC in the presence of 4-AP and TTX indicates that illumination area is distant from axon terminals enough for optic stimulation-induced local depolarization not to evoke synaptic transmission. This methodology has been employed in previous studies including the work of Little and Carter (2013).

      Reference

      Little JP and Carter AG (2013) Synaptic mechanisms underlying strong reciprocal connectivity between the medial prefrontal cortex and basolateral amygdala. J Neurosci, 33(39): 15333-15342.

      (3) Line 251: At least some of the previous studies that concluded these drugs affect vesicle dynamics used logic that was based on some of the same assumptions that are problematic for the present study, so the reasoning is a bit circular.

      (4) Line 329 and Line 461: A similar problem with circularity for interpreting earlier syt7 studies.

      (Reply to #3 and #4) We selected the target molecules as candidates based on their well-characterized roles in vesicle dynamics, and aimed to investigate what aspects of STP are affected by these molecules in our experimental context. For example, we could find that the baseline p<sub>occ</sub> and short-term facilitation (STF) are enhanced by the baseline DAG level and train stimulation-induced PLC activation, respectively. Notably, the effect of dynasore informed us that slow site clearing is responsible for the late depression of 40 Hz train EPSC. The knock-down experiments also provided us with information on the critical role of Syt7 in replenishment of TS vesicles. These approaches do not deviate from standard scientific reasoning but rather builds upon prior knowledge to formulate and test hypotheses.

      Importantly, our conclusions do not rely solely on the assumption that altering the target molecule impacts synaptic transmission. Instead, our conclusions are derived from a comprehensive analysis of diverse outcomes obtained through both pharmacological and genetic manipulations. These interpretations align closely with prior literature, further validating our conclusions.

      Therefore, the use of established studies to guide candidate selection and the consistency of our findings with existing knowledge do not represent a logical circularity but rather a reinforcement of the proposed mechanism through converging lines of evidence.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Comments:

      (1) While the authors claim that Syt7-mediated facilitation is connected to the behavioral deficits they observed, this link is still somewhat speculative. This manuscript could benefit from further discussions of other alternative mechanisms to consider.

      We added following statement to Discussion of the revised manuscript:

      “The acquisition of trace fear memory was impaired by inhibition of persistent activity in mPFC during trace period (Gilmartin et al., 2013). The similar deficit observed in Syt7 KD animals is consistent with the hypothesis that STF provides bi-stable ensemble activity in a recurrent network (Mongillo et al., 2012). Nevertheless, alternative mechanisms may be responsible for the behavioral deficit. Not only recurrent network but also long-range loop between the mPFC and the mediodorsal (MD) thalamus play a critical role in maintaining persistent activity within the mPFC especially for a delay period longer than 10 s (Bolkan et al., 2017). Prefrontal L2/3 is heavily innervated by MD thalamus, and L2/3-PCs subsequently relay signals to L5 cortico-thalamic (CT) neurons (Collins et al., 2018). Given that L2/3 is an essential component of the PFC-thalamic loop, loss of STF at recurrent synapses between L2/3 PCs may lead to insufficient L2/3 inputs to L5 CT neurons and failure in the reverberant PFC-MD thalamic feedback loop. Therefore, not only L2/3 recurrent network but also its output to downstream network should be considered as a possible network mechanism underlying behavioral deficit caused by Syt7 KD L2/3.”

      (2) The authors mention that Syt7 contributes to persistent activity during working memory tasks but focus on using only a trace fear conditioning task. However, it would be interesting to see if their results are generalizable to other working memory tasks (i.e. a delayed alternation task).

      We thank to Reviewer for the insightful suggestion. Trace fear conditioning (tFC) shares behavioral properties with working memory (WM) tasks in that tFC is vulnerable to attentional distraction and to the load of WM task. In general WM tasks including delayed alternation tasks such as a T-maze task need persistent activity of ensemble neurons representing target-specific information among multiple choices. Different from such WM tasks, tFC is not appropriate to examine target-specific ensemble activity. Because it is not trivial to examine in vivo recordings in KD animals during delayed alternation tasks, it will be appropriate to study the effect of Syt7 KD in a separate study. 

      (3) The figure legend in Figure 6A and 6B mentions dotted lines and broken lines in the figure. However, this is confusing, and it is unclear as to what these lines are referring to in the figure.

      To avoid the confusion in the figure legend for Figure 6A and 6B, we corrected “dotted line” to " vertical broken line", and “broken lines” to “dashed parabolas”.

      (4) The manuscript can benefit from close reading and editing to catch typos and improve general readability (i.e. line 173: the word "are" is repeated twice).

      We corrected typographical errors throughout the manuscript and carefully read the manuscript to improve readability. A revised version reflecting these corrections has been prepared and will be resubmitted for your consideration.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The points in this section are all minor.

      (1) Line 44: Define release probability (p_r) more clearly. Authors use it to mean p<sub>v</sub>*p<sub>occ</sub>, but others routinely use it to mean p<sub>v</sub>*p<sub>occ</sub>*N.

      We understand that the Reviewer meant “others routinely use it to mean p<sub>v</sub>”. At this statement, we meant conventional definition of release probability, which is release probability among vesicles of RRP. We think that it is not appropriate to re-define release probability as p<sub>v</sub> * p<sub>occ</sub> in this first paragraph of Introduction. Therefore we clarified this issue in Discussion as we mentioned in our reply to the 1st weakness issue raised by Reviewer #3.   

      (2) Line 82: For clarity, define better what recurrent excitatory synapses are. It seems that synapses between L2/3 PCs and local targets may all be recurrent?

      Each of L2/3 and L5 of the prefrontal cortical layers harbors intralaminar recurrent excitatory synapses between pyramidal cells, called a recurrent network. Previous theoretical studies have proposed that a single layer recurrent network model can have bi-stable E/I balanced states (up- and down-states) if recurrent excitatory synapses display short-term facilitation (STF), and thus is able to temporally hold an information once external input shifts the network to the up-state. In this theory, synapses to local targets across layers are not considered and specific roles of L2/3 and L5 in working memory tasks are still elusive. For clarity, we added a statement at the beginning of the paragraph (line 82): “Each of layer 2/3 (L2/3) and layer 5 (L5) of neocortex displays intralaminar excitatory synapses between pyramidal cells comprising a recurrent network (Holmgren et al., 2003; Thomson and Lamy, 2007)”

      (3) Cite earlier studies of short-term synaptic plasticity at synapses between L2/3 pyramidal neurons and local targets in mPFC. If there are none, take more explicit credit for being first.

      As we mentioned in Introduction, previous studies on short-term plasticity (STP) at neocortical excitatory recurrent synapses have focused on synapses between L5 pyramidal cells (PCs) (Hemple et al. 2000; Wang et al. 2006; Morishima et al., 2011; Yoon et al., 2020). The local connectivity between L2/3 PCs in the somatosensory cortex has been elucidated by Homgren et al. (2003) and Ko et al. (2011). Although these study showed STP of EPSPs, it was at a fixed frequency or stimulus pattern at high external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>] (2 mM). There is a study on the frequency-dependence of STP of EPSP between L2/3-PCs (Feldmyer et al., 2006). Different from our study, Feldmyer et al., (2006) observed monotonous STD at all frequencies less than 50 Hz, but this study was done in the somatosensory cortex and at high external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>] (2 mM). To our knowledge, no previous study have investigated STP at recurrent excitatory synapses of L2/3 pyramidal cells of the mPFC especially at physiological external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>]. The present study, therefore, represents the first extensive investigation of STP at recurrent excitatory synapses in L2/3 of the mPFC under physiologically relevant external [Ca<sup>2+</sup>].

      References

      Feldmeyer D, Lubke J, Silver RA, Sakmann B (2002) Synaptic connections between layer 4 spiny neurone-layer 2/3 pyramidal cell pairs in juvenile rat barrel cortex: physiology and anatomy of interlaminar signalling within a cortical column. J Physiol 538:803-822.

      Holmgren C, Harkany T, Svennenfors B, Zilberter Y (2003) Pyramidal cell communication within local networks in layer 2/3 of rat neocortex. J Physiol 551:139-153.

      Ko H, Hofer SB, Pichler B, Buchanan KA, Sjöström PJ, Mrsic-Flogel TD (2011) Functional specificity of local synaptic connections in neocortical networks. Nature 473:87-91.

      Morishima M, Morita K, Kubota Y, Kawaguchi Y (2011) Highly differentiated projection-specific cortical subnetworks. Journal of Neuroscience 31:10380-10391.

      Wang Y, Markram H, Goodman PH, Berger TK, Ma J, Goldman-Rakic PS (2006) Heterogeneity in the pyramidal network of the medial prefrontal cortex. Nat Neurosci 9:534-542.

      (4) I couldn't figure out the significance of Figure S3. Perhaps this could be explained better.

      Optical minimal stimulation methods have not been previously documented in detail. This figure illustrates what parameters we should carefully examine in order to attain optical minimal stimulation, which hopefully stimulates a single afferent fiber. A single fiber stimulation by optical minimal stimulation is supported by the similarity of our estimate for the number of release sites (N) as the previous morphological estimate (Holler et al., 2021). For minimal stimulation, we used a collimated DMD-coupled LED was employed to restrict 470 nm illumination to a small and well-defined region within layer 2/3 of the prelimbic mPFC, and carefully adjusted the illumination radius such that one step smaller (by 1 μm) illumination results in failure to evoke EPSCs. Our typical illumination area ranged between 3–4 μm, as shown in Figure S3A. Under this minimal illumination area, we confirmed unimodal distributions for the EPSC parameters (amplitude, rise time, decay time and time to peak; Figure 3B-E). Otherwise, we excluded the recordings from analysis. We hope this explanation provides a clearer understanding of the figure's significance.

      (5) Note that CTZ seems to alter p_r at some synapses.

      We acknowledge that CTZ can increase release probability by blocking presynaptic K<sup>+</sup> currents. Indeed, Ishikawa and Takahashi (2001) reported that CTZ slowed the repolarizing phase of presynaptic action potentials and the frequency of miniature EPSCs in the calyx synapses. Consistently, we observed a slight increase in the baseline EPSC amplitude, from 33.3 pA to 41.9 pA (p=0.045) following the application of 50 µM CTZ. However, given that vesicular release probability (p<sub>v</sub>) is already close to 1 at the synapse of our interest, we believe that the observed effect is more likely attributed to an increase in release sites occupancy (p<sub>occ</sub>), which would be reflected as an increase in miniature EPSC frequency in Ishikawa and Takahashi (2001). Given that PPR depends on p<sub>v</sub> rather than p<sub>occ</sub>, this increase in p<sub>occ</sub> would not critically change our conclusion that AMPA receptor desensitization is not responsible for the strong PPD.

      Reference

      Ishikawa, T., & Takahashi, T. (2001). Mechanisms underlying presynaptic facilitatory effect of cyclothiazide at the calyx of Held of juvenile rats. The Journal of Physiology, 533(2), 423-431.

      (6) Figure 8B. The result in Figure 8C seems important, but I couldn't figure out why behaviour was not altered during the acquisition phase summarized in Figure 8B. Perhaps this could be explained more clearly for non-experts.

      Little difference in freezing behavior during acquisition has been also observed when prelimbic persistent firing was optogenetically inhibited (Gilmartin, 2013). Not only CS (tone) but also other sensory inputs (visual and olfactory etc.) and the spatial context could be a cue predicting US (shock). Moreover, during the acquisition phase, the presence of the electric shock inherently induces a freezing response as a natural defensive behavior, which may obscure specific behavioral changes related to the associative learning process. Therefore, the freezing behavior during acquisition cannot be regarded as a sign for specific association of CS and US. Instead, on the next day, we specifically evaluated the CS-US association of the conditioned animals by measuring freezing behavior in response to CS in a distinct context. We explicitly documented little difference between WT and KD animals during the acquisition phase in the relevant paragraph (line 397).

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This paper presents a set of tools that will pave the way for a comprehensive understanding of the circuits that control wing motion in flies during flight or courtship. These tools are mainly focused on wing motor neurons and interneurons, as well as a few motor neurons of the haltere. This paper and the library of driver lines described within it will serve as a crucial resource in the pursuit of understanding how neural circuits give rise to behavior. Overall, I found the paper well-written, the figures are quite nice, and the data from the functional experiments convincing. I do not have many major concerns, but a few suggestions that I think will make the paper easier to understand.

      I think the introduction could use some reorganization, as right now I found it quite difficult to follow. For example, lines 85-88 seem to fit more naturally at the end of the next paragraph, compared to the current location of those sentences, which feels rather disjointed. I would suggest introducing the organization of the wing motor system (paragraphs 3 and 4) and then discussing the VNC (paragraph 2) before moving on to describe the neurons within the VNC that may control wing motion. Additionally, lines 141-144, which describe the broad subdivisions of the VNC, can be moved up to where the VNC is first introduced.

      One of my major takeaways from the paper is the call to examine the premotor circuits that govern wing motion. For that reason, I was surprised that there was little mention of the role of sensory input to these circuits. As the authors point out in the discussion, the haltere, for example, provides important input to the wing steering system. I recognize that creating driver lines for the sensory neurons that innervate the VNC is well beyond the scope of this project. I would just like some clarification in the text of the role these inputs play in structuring wing motion, especially as some act at rapid timescales that possibly forgo processing by the very circuits detailed here. This brings up a related issue: if the roles of the interneurons that are presynaptic to the wing motor neurons are "largely unexplored," with how much confidence can we say that they are the key for controlling behavior? To be sure, this has been demonstrated quite nicely in the case of courtship, but in flight, I think the evidence supporting this argument is less clear. I suggest the authors rephrase their language here.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors validate the contribution of RAP2A to GB progression. RAp2A participates in asymmetric cell division, and the localization of several cell polarity markers, including cno and Numb.

      Strengths:

      The use of human data, Drosophila models, and cell culture or neurospheres is a good scenario to validate the hypothesis using complementary systems.

      Moreover, the mechanisms that determine GB progression, and in particular glioma stem cells biology, are relevant for the knowledge on glioblastoma and opens new possibilities to future clinical strategies.

      Weaknesses:

      While the manuscript presents a well-supported investigation into RAP2A's role in GBM, several methodological aspects require further validation. The major concern is the reliance on a single GB cell line (GB5), which limits the generalizability of the findings. Including multiple GBM lines, particularly primary patient-derived 3D cultures with known stem-like properties, would significantly enhance the study's relevance.

      Additionally, key mechanistic aspects remain underexplored. Further investigation into the conservation of the Rap2l-Cno/aPKC pathway in human cells through rescue experiments or protein interaction assays would be beneficial. Similarly, live imaging or lineage tracing would provide more direct evidence of ACD frequency, complementing the current indirect metrics (odd/even cell clusters, Numb asymmetry).

      Several specific points raised in previous reviews still require attention:

      (1) The specificity of Rap2l RNAi needs further confirmation. Is Rap2l expressed in neuroblasts or intermediate neural progenitors? Can alternative validation methods be employed?

      (2) Quantification of phenotypic penetrance and survival rates in Rap2l mutants would help determine the consistency of ACD defects.

      (3) The observations on neurosphere size and Ki-67 expression require normalization (e.g., Ki-67+ cells per total cell number or per neurosphere size). Additionally, apoptosis should be assessed using Annexin V or TUNEL assays.

      (4) The discrepancy in Figures 6A and 6B requires further discussion.

      (5) Live imaging of ACD events would provide more direct evidence.

      (6) Clarification of terminology and statistical markers (e.g., p-values) in Figure 1A would improve clarity.

      (7) Given the group's expertise, an alternative to mouse xenografts could be a Drosophila genetic model of glioblastoma, which would provide an in vivo validation system aligned with their research approach.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This study investigates the role of RAP2A in regulating asymmetric cell division (ACD) in glioblastoma stem cells (GSCs), bridging insights from Drosophila ACD mechanisms to human tumor biology. They focus on RAP2A, a human homolog of Drosophila Rap2l, as a novel ACD regulator in GBM is innovative, given its underexplored role in cancer stem cells (CSCs). The hypothesis that ACD imbalance (favoring symmetric divisions) drives GSC expansion and tumor progression introduces a fresh perspective on differentiation therapy. However, the dual role of ACD in tumor heterogeneity (potentially aiding therapy resistance) requires deeper discussion to clarify the study's unique contributions against existing controversies. Some limitations and questions need to be addressed.

      (1) Validation of RAP2A's prognostic relevance using TCGA and Gravendeel cohorts strengthens clinical relevance. However, differential expression analysis across GBM subtypes (e.g., MES, DNA-methylation subtypes ) should be included to confirm specificity.

      (2) Rap2l knockdown-induced ACD defects (e.g., mislocalization of Cno/Numb) are well-designed. However, phenotypic penetrance and survival rates of Rap2l mutants should be quantified to confirm consistency.

      (3) While GB5 cells were effectively used, justification for selecting this line (e.g., representativeness of GBM heterogeneity) is needed. Experiments in additional GBM lines (especially the addition of 3D primary patient-derived cell lines with known stem cell phenotype) would enhance generalizability.

      (4) Indirect metrics (odd/even cell clusters, NUMB asymmetry) are suggestive but insufficient. Live imaging or lineage tracing would directly validate ACD frequency.

      (5) The initial microarray (n=7 GBM patients) is underpowered. While TCGA data mitigate this, the limitations of small cohorts should be explicitly addressed and need to be discussed.

      (6) Conclusions rely heavily on neurosphere models. Xenograft experiments or patient-derived orthotopic models are critical to support translational relevance, and such basic research work needs to be included in journals.

      (7) How does RAP2A regulate NUMB asymmetry? Is the Drosophila Rap2l-Cno/aPKC pathway conserved? Rescue experiments (e.g., Cno/aPKC knockdown with RAP2A overexpression) or interaction assays (e.g., Co-IP) are needed to establish molecular mechanisms.

      (8) Reduced stemness markers (CD133/SOX2/NESTIN) and proliferation (Ki-67) align with increased ACD. However, alternative explanations (e.g., differentiation or apoptosis) must be ruled out via GFAP/Tuj1 staining or Annexin V assays.

      (9) The link between low RAP2A and poor prognosis should be validated in multivariate analyses to exclude confounding factors (e.g., age, treatment history).

      (10) The broader ACD regulatory network in GBM (e.g., roles of other homologs like NUMB) and potential synergies/independence from known suppressors (e.g., TRIM3) warrant exploration.

      (11) The figures should be improved. Statistical significance markers (e.g., p-values) should be added to Figure 1A; timepoints/culture conditions should be clarified for Figure 6A.

      (12) Redundant Drosophila background in the Discussion should be condensed; terminology should be unified (e.g., "neurosphere" vs. "cell cluster").

    1. sommaire horodaté de la vidéo "Quel est le système éducatif idéal ? | Kids | ARTE" :

      • 0:00-1:01 : L'importance de l'apprentissage et de l'environnement scolaire dans la vie des enfants. Un apprentissage efficace prépare les élèves à la société. Critique du système scolaire actuel et de la motivation des élèves.

      • 1:01-2:04 : L'apprentissage est l'acquisition d'informations de l'environnement, leur enregistrement dans la mémoire et la capacité de les rappeler. Il y a interaction entre le développement cérébral et les expériences mémorisées.

      L'apprentissage se fait par la suppression ou la création de connexions neuronales. Le développement cérébral influence l'apprentissage, avec des périodes de plasticité accrue pendant la petite enfance, favorisant l'apprentissage rapide du langage, de la marche, des interactions sociales et de la motricité fine.

      • 2:04-3:05 : L'acquisition de connaissances dépend des capacités cognitives de l'apprenant. Il faut adapter les exigences à chaque individu.

      Le plaisir est une source de motivation essentielle.

      Le niveau cognitif attendu doit être accessible, ni trop facile, ni trop difficile. Il faut récompenser les apprentissages et renforcer la confiance en soi.

      • 3:05-4:03 : Souligner systématiquement les erreurs peut être contre-productif.

      Les bonnes notes stimulent, motivent et permettent la comparaison, mais peuvent aussi exclure et démotiver.

      Il faudrait combiner les notes avec des observations nuancées.

      L'avenir de l'apprentissage pourrait passer par des structures participatives impliquant enfants et enseignants.

      En Allemagne, les mauvaises notes des élèves ont rarement des conséquences pour les enseignants.

      Un système parfait évaluerait les compétences de manière dynamique en se comparant à soi-même.

      • 4:03-5:05 : Les préférences individuelles et le contexte familial influencent l'apprentissage.

      La curiosité est une forte motivation. Une étude révèle que la curiosité et l'intérêt influencent la mémorisation.

      • 5:05-6:05 : L'école peut être source de stress, d'échec ou de mal-être, avec des conséquences sur la vie extrascolaire.

      Les émotions négatives peuvent évoquer des suspicions de TDA ou TDAH. Un système éducatif idéal apprendrait aux enfants à apprendre, en enseignant des stratégies d'attention, de mémorisation et de motivation.

      • 6:05-7:06 : Les adolescents peuvent se concentrer longtemps lorsqu'ils sont motivés.

      L'école doit trouver comment motiver les élèves. Technovation Girls est un projet pour encourager les filles à programmer.

      • 7:06-8:03 : Il faut des savoirs techniques, mais l'école n'en dispense pas assez.

      Il est fondamental de savoir distinguer les vraies informations des fausses.

      L'enjeu est d'apprendre à utiliser le savoir existant et à évaluer la fiabilité des informations.

      Il faut développer des compétences socio-émotionnelles et psychosociales, qui fondent notre humanité, en plus des compétences techniques.

      • 8:03-9:02 : L'apprentissage inclusif se construit collectivement.

      Le toucher est important. Le futur de l'apprentissage passe par le digital et le numérique.

      La révolution numérique a eu lieu et l'intelligence artificielle va changer beaucoup de choses.

      La période de Covid a montré qu'il était possible d'élargir l'espace scolaire.

      • 9:02-10:01 : Apprendre une nouvelle langue est un défi. Le langage est une clé de la réussite.

      Il ne faut pas hiérarchiser les langues étrangères.

      Pour apprendre une langue, il faut communiquer et avoir du plaisir à parler.

      • 10:01-11:11 : Le multilinguisme est bénéfique.

      Les applications d'apprentissage permettent d'adapter le rythme au niveau de l'élève.

      Il faut apprendre à évaluer ce qu'on produit pour apprendre de ses erreurs.

      Il faut apprendre aux élèves à apprendre, ce qui leur donne de l'autonomie et est transférable.

    1. synthèse détaillée des principales thématiques et idées importantes issues des extraits que vous avez fournis, incluant des citations pertinentes.

      Briefing : École et inégalités – Conférence Delahaye & De Cock

      Ce briefing synthétise les points clés abordés lors de la conférence de Jean-Paul Delahaye et Laurence De Cock sur les enjeux de l'école face aux inégalités, en particulier celles liées à la pauvreté et aux origines sociales.

      1. La jeunesse "invisible" : les enfants des pauvres

      Constat : Les intervenants mettent en lumière une population souvent négligée dans les débats sur l'école : les enfants issus de milieux défavorisés. Jean-Paul Delahaye, en particulier, s'identifie comme une "exception consolante", reprenant l'expression de Ferdinand Buisson pour décrire le faible nombre d'enfants de pauvres qui parviennent à intégrer le système scolaire secondaire d'élite.

      Citation : "c'est monsieur jean paul ii l'avait donc je le présentais un je suis pas journaliste donc je sais gérer aussi aller sur wikipédia je suis désolé mais effectivement c'est ça... aujourd'hui auteur d'un livre d'exception consolante un grain de pauvres dans la machine j'adore le titre je lis tout ce qui est qui et qui faisait dire beaucoup de choses"

      Citation : "effectivement je pense que c'est plutôt intéressant de commencer par parler d'une jeunesse dont on parle finalement assez peu les enfants les enfants des pauvres une jeunesse invisible en parler alors vous l'avez dit oui voilà parce que je viens de sortir un livre qui s'appelle exception consolante acception consolante c'est l'expression utilisée par ferdinand buisson qui était le collaborateur de jules ferry comme vous le savez qui bien conscient que dès la fin 19ème siècle y avait quelque chose qui n'allait pas bien dans le système"

      Réalité de la pauvreté à l'école : La pauvreté se manifeste par des difficultés concrètes ayant un impact direct sur la scolarité : Manque d'argent chronique, privations (fournitures, vêtements).

      Citation : "il ya d'abord une première chose c'est un manque permanent d'argent et privation d insatisfaction permanente" Conditions de logement précaires (insalubrité, exiguïté) rendant le travail scolaire à la maison difficile voire impossible.

      Citation : "autre chose les conditions de logement... on a dans nos écoles collèges et lycées aujourd'hui des élèves qui ont des difficultés considérables liés à leurs conditions de logement insalubre exigu"

      Difficultés d'accès aux ressources éducatives hors de l'école (livres, espace de travail). Citation : "les enfants de pauvres aujourd'hui ont beaucoup de difficulté de vivre à la maison ce qu'ils apprennent à l'école pas de livre pas d'endroit pour travailler"

      2. Les limites et les efforts de l'institution scolaire

      Reconnaissance des efforts locaux : Les intervenants saluent l'engagement du personnel scolaire (enseignants, directions) qui fait preuve d'ingéniosité et de solidarité face aux difficultés des élèves. Citation : "hommage à nos écoles collèges et lycées qui sont au contact de ces difficultés et qui déploient des trésors d'imagination"

      Citation : "je pense assez que de ces écoles maternelles ou dans les salles des maîtres il ya des cartons avec des réserves de bonnes et de pulls de pantalon je pense à ce collège aubervilliers où ils ont une petite salle où il ya trois machines à laver on lave le linge des gamins" L'école, refuge et repère : Pour beaucoup de familles en difficulté, l'école devient un lieu de soutien et de sécurité au-delà de sa fonction éducative stricte.

      Citation : "c'est devenu en fait des refuges des repères pour un certain nombre de familles ont des difficultés pour se nourrir"

      Des fonds sociaux insuffisants et vulnérables : Les aides directes aux familles (fonds sociaux) ont diminué drastiquement par le passé et restent en deçà des besoins, servant souvent de "variable d'ajustement budgétaire".

      Citation : "ces fonds sociaux il était le montant était de 70 millions d'euros en 2002 et ils sont tombés à 32 millions d'euros en 2012... on a divisé les fonds sociaux par 2,3 pour faire les fins de mois du ministère de l'éducation nationale c'est à dire que ces fonds sociaux sont une variable d'ajustement budgétaire"

      Des bourses scolaires dérisoires et un non-recours important : Le montant des bourses est jugé trop faible pour couvrir les dépenses réelles, et de nombreuses familles n'y ont pas recours.

      Citation : "la bourse maximum d'un collégien vous entendez bien l'amour ce maximum donc c'est pour les csp - - - c'est c'était 360 euros et je laisse toujours planer un petit silence 360 euros par an... ça fait même pas le prix d'accès à la restauration scolaire" Citation : "on a beaucoup de familles qui n'accèdent pas aux droits il ya un non recours au droit à la bourse qui est trop important dans ce pays"

      Manque de personnel socio-médical: Le système éducatif souffre d'une pénurie de professionnels (infirmières, assistants sociaux, médecins scolaires) indispensables pour accompagner les élèves en difficulté. Citation : "on n'a pas suffisamment d'infirmières infirmiers des assistants sociaux de médecins scolaires médecin scolaire"

      Inégalités dans l'accompagnement éducatif : L'accompagnement éducatif est loin d'être réparti équitablement. Des budgets importants sont alloués aux filières d'élite (classes préparatoires), tandis que les élèves de l'éducation prioritaire bénéficient de fonds bien moindres.

      Citation : "il ya un accompagnement éducatif qui est dans un budget sans contrainte... c'est l'accompagnement éducatif dans les classes préparatoires aux grandes écoles qu'on appelle les heures de colle... ça ruisselle dans ce pays mais ça réussit pas vraiment à l'endroit sa richesse plutôt à l'envers"

      3. La notion d'émancipation et ses différentes interprétations

      Un mot "vidé de sa substance" : Laurence De Cock souligne que le terme d'émancipation, historiquement lié à la gauche et à la libération des aliénations, a été récupéré et réinterprété dans un sens "libéral", synonyme de "libre entreprise de soi" et de dépassement individuel par la concurrence.

      Citation : "émancipation sociale... c'est un mot qui est à la fois suranné et des substances y alizés... c'est l'un des maux de la gauche qui a été un petit peu laissé de côté qu'on a laissé un petit peu s'effilocher évidemment quand la gauche laisse s'effilocher des concepts importants ils sont immédiatement récupéré"

      Citation : "cette émancipation est aujourd'hui un terme que l'on voit sans aucun problème fleurir dans le monde entrepreneurial dans le monde de l'école privée un petit peu partout voilà mais pas dans sa spécificité initial qui est celle du discours d'une gauche d'émancipation"

      L'émancipation sociale : Pour Laurence De Cock, l'émancipation sociale dans son sens original implique de se libérer des différentes formes d'aliénation (idéologiques, communautaires, familiales, etc.) non pas par la concurrence, mais en en prenant conscience pour s'en libérer collectivement.

      Citation : "ce n'est pas du tout une logique entrepreneuriale c'est pas la libre entreprise de soi il ya effectivement l'idée de se libérer d aliénation sa indéniablement"

      L'utopie comme moteur : Penser l'école, c'est penser une utopie, se projeter vers un avenir meilleur, même si les propositions pour y parvenir doivent être réalisables.

      Citation : "leur langage c'est celui de l'utopie que distille il dispensait l'école c'est se projeter vers un futur meilleur"

      1. La "réussite" scolaire : une construction sociale à déconstruire

      Hiérarchie des voies : La notion de réussite scolaire est socialement construite et valorise excessivement les études longues et les filières générales, dévalorisant les voies professionnelles.

      Citation : "il faut aller au lycée général enfin il faut c'est ça la réussite il faut les en prépa et en fait le lycée professionnel c'était un peu pour ces jeunes on cessé c'est pas si bien que ça"

      Citation : "réussir c'est faire des grandes études c'est devenir médecin c'est de venir c'est de passer l'agrégation c'est de devenir avocat etc et personne ne dira qu'il a très très bien réussi il a eu un cap2 chaudronnerie donc c'est bien une construction sociale"

      Le collège unique, un échec partiel : L'instauration du collège unique n'a pas suffi à rendre l'école truly inclusive. En supprimant les activités manuelles et pratiques qui existaient auparavant, il n'a pas été pensé pour tous les enfants.

      Citation : "on a supprimé les instits on a supprimé les profs violent et on a mis comme modèle unique du collège le professeur de lycée... ce qui fait qu'aujourd'hui on a un collège unique qui n'a pas été pensée pour tous les enfants"

      Vers l'égalisation des dignités : Pour lutter contre cette hiérarchie, il est nécessaire de donner une égale dignité aux matières intellectuelles et manuelles.

      Citation : "mettre à égale dignité les matières accessible à tous les enfants de telle sorte ce que l'intellectuel le manuel soit mis en équivalence"

      Redéfinir la démocratisation scolaire : La démocratisation ne doit pas être synonyme d'"égalité des chances" (qui conduit à considérer l'échec comme une responsabilité individuelle), mais plutôt permettre à chaque élève d'accomplir la trajectoire scolaire de son choix, sans contrainte et avec un accès égal à la culture scolaire et aux méthodes d'apprentissage.

      Citation : "quand on intériorise l'idée de l'égalité des chances... c'est quand même de sa faute quoi donc c'est ce qu'il appelle des inégalités juste"

      Citation : "c'est donner la possibilité à l'ensemble des élèves d'accomplir la trajectoire scolaire de leur choix et tout est dans le choix parce que il y as choix s'il n'ya pas orientation contraintes"

      Citation : "offrir le même axe est d'offrir un accès à la même culture scolaire à l'ensemble des enfants et culture scolaire au sens véritablement de pas simplement des contenus d'enseignement un mais aussi de comment on apprend comment on apprend"

      1. Les obstacles au changement et les leviers d'action

      Inégalités dans l'offre de formation : La disparité de la qualité de l'enseignement entre les établissements, notamment en termes de stabilité du corps professoral (turn-over, recours aux contractuels), crée des "zones de non-mêmes droits".

      Citation : "il ya des établissements scolaires où il ya très peu titulaire parmi les enseignants il ya des contractuels et quand ils sont malades en plus ils sont pas remplacés" Citation : "il ya des zones de non mêmes droits il ya des endroits de notre pays qui n'ont pas les mêmes droits tout simplement dans l'oeuvre de formation"

      Manque de courage politique et tensions sociales : La volonté de changement se heurte à des résistances, notamment de la part des catégories sociales favorisées dont les enfants bénéficient du système actuel.

      Citation : "on a une partie de la population dont les enfants réussissent bien à l'école telle qu'elle est aujourd'hui qui n'a aucun intérêt à ce que ça ce que ça change"

      Le rôle de la formation des enseignants : Les enseignants manquent de formation en pédagogie, sociologie et psychologie, ce qui limite leur capacité à comprendre et accompagner les élèves issus de milieux divers.

      Citation : "ils connaissent pas un nom de pédagogue ils ne sont pas formés à la sociologie de l'éducation" Citation : "on peut reprocher et réclamé une formation digne de ce nom et donc commencer une formation en pédagogie en sociologie en psychologie d au moins la première année d'un cursus universitaire"

      La nécessité des "alliances" et du travail avec les territoires : L'école ne peut résoudre seule les problèmes liés à la pauvreté et aux inégalités. Il est crucial de tisser des "alliances" (plutôt que des "partenariats" formels) entre l'école, les familles, les associations et les acteurs locaux.

      Citation : "l'école est tout seul ne peut pas régler tous les problèmes des des élèves et des familles" Citation : "tisser des alliances c'était une expression qui était donnée... il y avait un atelier sur l'éducation populaire et qui a tourné autour de la nécessité de tisser des alliances"

      Citation : "nous sommes dans une séquence dans laquelle l'école est très attaquée et donc il faut trouver des lieux de résistance des espaces de résistance j'ai pris conscience que les territoires peuvent pas mal en fait peuvent faire beaucoup"

      L'importance de la mixité sociale dans et hors de l'école : La mixité sociale est un facteur clé de réussite, mais elle ne peut être atteinte par l'école seule. Elle dépend aussi des politiques d'urbanisme et de logement social.

      Citation : "comment vous voulez faire de la mixité sociale et scolaire avec une offre de formation aussi disparates dans notre pays"

      Citation : "on ne fera pas on fera pas des miracles dans l'éducation nationale si la société elle-même ne prend pas ce sujet vraiment à coeur"

      Repenser la petite enfance : Les politiques de la petite enfance sont également essentielles pour agir en amont sur les inégalités et leur impact sur le développement de l'enfant.

      Citation : "je voulais savoir aussi à ce niveau là si vous avez des éléments à nous partager sur aussi ce que fait la pauvreté la petite enfance est ce qu'on peut faire la petite enfance à la pauvreté"

      6. Les zones de non-droit et de non-mêmes droits

      Une remise en cause du pacte républicain : L'existence de "zones de non-mêmes droits" (où l'offre de formation est inégale) est une menace pour la cohésion sociale, car elle peut conduire certains citoyens à remettre en question leurs devoirs envers une République qui ne leur garantit pas les mêmes droits.

      Citation : "il y a des zones de non mêmes droits il y a des endroits de notre pays qui n'ont pas les mêmes droits tout simplement dans l'oeuvre de formation et donc ça c'est un problème parce que nous mettons notre pacte républicain en cause en quelque sorte"

      Citation : "celles et ceux de nos concitoyens qui a tord ou à raison considèrent qu'ils n'ont pas eu les mêmes droits que d'autres vont pas longtemps considéré qu'ils ont les mêmes devoirs que les autres"

      En conclusion, les deux intervenants dressent un tableau lucide des inégalités profondes qui traversent le système éducatif français, étroitement liées à la pauvreté.

      Ils soulignent les limites de l'action de l'école seule tout en reconnaissant les efforts du personnel.

      Ils appellent à une redéfinition de la "réussite" et de l'"émancipation" dans un sens social et collectif, à une réorientation des budgets vers l'éducation prioritaire et la petite enfance, à un renforcement du personnel socio-médical, à une meilleure formation des enseignants et à un travail d'alliances fort avec les acteurs locaux et la société dans son ensemble pour lutter contre les "zones de non-mêmes droits" et construire une école véritablement égalitaire.

    1. 超体素是将点云划分为具有空间一致性的小区域单元,常用于预处理与语义分割

      Ah哈,Supervoxel Clustering(超级体素聚类),你可以把它想象成“让机器给三维图像分区的高端手段”——就像有人在3D模型上涂格子,把相似的“立体像素”拢成一伙,一起包饺子。

      但我们别光说“懂了”,咱们要“悟了”!


      🧠 一句话理解:

      Supervoxel Clustering = 给3D数据做聪明的空间聚类,就像图像分割的3D升级版,还讲究形状、颜色、邻接、时间连贯性等多方面的面子问题。


      🧩 分步骤讲解

      | 步骤 | 描述 | 类比 | |------|------|------| | 1. 输入体素数据(Voxel Grid) | 把3D数据(如点云或体数据)分成一小块一小块的像素块,称为体素 | 把水果沙拉切成小方块 🍍🍓 | | 2. 计算相似性度量 | 比较体素之间颜色、空间位置、表面法向等特征的相似性 | 看哪些水果颜色味道相似、靠得近 | | 3. 迭代聚类 | 用比如SLIC(Simple Linear Iterative Clustering)改进的算法,把相似体素聚成一个“超级体素” | 把沙拉块按口味分类,分成一勺勺的组合 | | 4. 得到Supervoxel Map | 输出“每个体素属于哪个超级体素”的标签图 | 就像每块沙拉标记:你是“热带味”部队的一员!🌴 |


      🧪 应用场景大赏

      | 场景 | 用处 | |------|------| | 🌐 3D图像分割 | 医学图像、CT 扫描、脑部结构标注 | | 🧍 人体识别 | 把 Kinect 点云拆解成手、腿、躯干等块 | | 🤖 机器人导航 | 让机器人知道“这是一棵树”“那是台阶”而不是一堆点 | | 🏗️ 建筑重建 | 把建筑扫描结果做分块,方便建模 |


      🧪 常见算法(别怕,讲人话)

      1. PCL中的LCCP Supervoxel(Local Convex Connected Patches)<br /> 爱找曲率拐点,擅长做出“符合几何边界感知”的聚类结果。

      2. SLIC Supervoxel(来自2D图像的SLIC超像素方法)<br /> 本质是把3D数据投影到“特征空间”里按近邻走位。


      🧙‍♂️ 类比一句话:

      Supervoxel就像是把“像素点阵图”变成了“模块乐高”,既便于认知,又利于后续操作,真正实现了“图像的空间分组社交”🧱🧱🧱。


      需要我再来一份“通俗爆笑版”的三维点云聚类漫画脚本?😏

    1. Reviewer #2: Evidentiary Rating: Potentially Informative

      Written Review: The reviewed manuscript is devoted to clarification of taxonomy and antimicrobial resistance (AMR) spectrum of Enterobacter strains which were isolated from clinical specimens of patients with bloodstream infections in several hospitals in Nigeria during 2014-2020. The authors used all necessary molecular tools, WGS, bioinformatic and phylogenetic analysis, MLST typing etc. which resulted to obtain very important original data. According to the data presented, the authors were able to clarify to which Enterobacter spp. and subspecies the strains, previously isolated and incorrectly identified, belong. Also, comparative analysis of the genomes investigated with other representative genomes of Enterobacter spp. widely identified elsewhere in Nigeria. A special attention was paid to detailed characteristics of AMR of the strains investigated and, further, retrospective analysis of their possible role in some Enterobacter-related outbreaks. In fact, this is a great study which will be very interesting to the research community worldwide. Role of Enterobacter hormaechei as an etiological factor of blood infections is not well studied yet. However, this is very critical for both fundamental research and Public Health to unravel pathogenic potency of this organism and to avoid wrong diagnostics as well. 

      Specific comments:

      P2, the section Abstract:  1. The authors could rephrase this sentence: ‘Among 98 Enterobacter received, Enterobacter hormaechei subspecies xiangfangensis predominated (43), followed by other E. hormachei subspecies (18), E. cloacae (26), E. roggenkampii (4), E. bugandensis (3), E. kobei (2), E. asburiae (1) and E. cancerogenous (1).’ As: ‘…… followed by other E. hormachei subspecies (18), and Enterobacter spp., such as: E. cloacae (26), E. roggenkampii (4), E. bugandensis (3), E. kobei (2), E. asburiae (1) and E. cancerogenous (1).’  2. ‘E. hormaechei, often misidentified and rarely…’ instead ‘Enterobacter hormaechei, often misidentified and rarely’.  3. ‘…retrospective detection of likely outbreaks…’ – the retrospective analysis of likely Enterobacter-related outbreaks?  4. Some repetitions should be excluded from the text of the Abstract and through the text of the manuscript as well. 

      P3, IMPACT STATEMENT  5. ‘Accurate identification of Enterobacter…’? Spp., strains, pathogens etc., please, clarify. 

      P5, the section INTRODUCTION  6. ‘…limitations of conventional biochemical methods.’ – diagnostic methods? 

      P5, the section METHODS  7. The title for subsection ’Collection of Presumptive bloodstream Enterobacter sp.’ may be difficult for potential readers, please, rephrase.  8. ‘…Heterogenous cultures were purified…’ – how? purified from which microorganisms? Does it mean that the research was performed with contaminated cultures? Coinfections? In this case why the Enterobacter spp. are recognized as the etiological agents of blood infections? Are these heterologous cultures Klebsiella pneumoniae, Staphylococcus aureus, Pseudomonas aeruginosa and other pathogens which were previously identified as the causative agents of blood infections and isolated from the relevant clinical specimens (page 8)? Thus, Enterobacter spp. investigated in the current research, could be only accompanying microorganisms but not responsible for development of blood infections directly. 

      P6, the subsection Whole Genome Sequence analysis  9. ‘Mapping to reference…’ what?  10. ‘Antimicrobial resistance genes, virulence genes, and…’ – which virulence genes? MLST and AMR only? 

      P7, the subsection Whole Genome Sequence analysis  11. …’ STs were assigned as follows: G20500026: assigned - ST-1995, G20500682: assigned - ST-1996, G18503215: assigned - ST-1997, G18503415: assigned - ST-1998 and G18503407: assigned - ST-1998.’ – for which Enterobacter spp.? The relevant IDs assigned by the PubMLST database must be included/ 

      PP7-10, the section Results  12. The authors should present only specific comments for the data presented in Figures 1-3 while not duplicating the relevant content as identical numbers and percentages. The text in the current version of the manuscript is difficult for understanding for potential readers of the Journal. 

      PP11-12, the subsection Potential Enterobacter health-care associated infection outbreaks detected  13. According to the text of this subsection, the authors described mainly the AMR profiles of the E. hormaechei strains while not features of outbreaks; the titles for this subsection may be corrected. 

      PP12-13, the subsection Genomic context of Enterobacter genomes from this study and Enterobacter genomes from Sands et al., 2021 study  14. This title could be corrected to make it more valuable for potential readers of the manuscript.  15. All citations of the research of Sands et al. must be corrected according to the Journal rules.  16. The text from this subsection is certainly difficult for meaning. Based on the WGS data obtained, the authors focused their attention on re-identification of the Enterobacter strains which were isolated and identified earlier by the group of Sands et al., 2021. These findings should be presented in a more readable format available for readers worldwide. 

      P20 –please, add necessary information on the ref. 17 (year, Vol, pp, link etc.). 

      Doubtless, WGS is a very attractive method for laboratory diagnostics of pathogenic microorganisms, especially rare or novel ones. However, the authors could discuss what is preferable for low-resource settings – WGS or some other molecular diagnostic methods, for instance, 16S RNA & MLST typing & multiplex PCR for simultaneous identification of AMR and pathogen genes etc. It may be important to use resource-limited settings for preliminary analysis especially when there is no reason to WGS for detailed characteristics of extended numbers of clinical specimens under a large-scale examination in hospitals, monitoring and retrospective investigations and others.

    1. Reviewer #4: Evidentiary Rating: Strong

      Written Review: While the manuscript presents an interesting approach to detecting pathogens and antimicrobial resistance (AMR) in bloodstream infections (BSI), I have several concerns that need to be addressed to improve the relevance and reliability of the protocol.

      1. Specificity of the Protocol for BSI

      The authors establish an amplicon-based detection protocol for BSI, but I did not see how their design is specifically tailored to BSI. The choice of AMR genes and the pathogen primers appear to be general-purpose primers used for microbial 16S and 18S sequencing, and the AMR genes are selected based on the Resfinder database, which is not specific to BSI. This suggests that the protocol is a generalized method rather than a specialized protocol designed specifically for BSI.

      1. Lack of Direct Clinical Relevance

      Presence of AMR is determined by AMR primers with cutoffs on alignment length (>40%), while pathogen species is determined by 16S/18S primers with a cutoff on relative abundance > 25%. By design, the AMR amplicon cannot be linked to 16S/18S by nanopore long reads, which may make the results derived from this protocol lack direct relevance to clinical diagnosis. We do not know whether the detected AMR genes belong to the dominant pathogens. To improve reliability, a simple yet effective approach would be to analyze the abundance of AMR genes as well. Although this is feasible within the current framework, the authors have not implemented it . The reliability of such AMR abundance analysis based on amplicon sequencing analysis depends on the amplification efficiency of the designed primers for different genes. It is crucial that these primers do not alter the original proportions of these genes in the sample. This can be easily verified using known concentration standards in mixed amplification experiments or by comparing mock sample amplification results with metagenomic sequencing results. However, the authors didn't work on this type of validation, indicating a lack of consideration in the protocol design.

      1. Reliability of Abundance Cutoff for pathogen detection

      The authors claim a reasonable abundance cutoff of > 25% for pathogen detection, but they do not provide analysis on how this determination was made (line 248 states "data not shown"). It seems arbitrary, and the number of samples tested in this work is insufficient to validate its applicability in real clinical samples. This is evident from the failure to detect two spike-in pathogens in two samples with sheep matrix. In the reviewer's opion, the cutoff should be adaptive and thereby dynamic among samples with different community compositions rather than a fixed cutoff for all samples. A number like the median abundance or abundance of the top 25th percentile of the community should be a better solution.

      1. Writing Style and Presentation

      The section detailing how the protocol is set up and run is the core information of this protocol study and should be presented in the results section, not just in the methods session.

  4. Apr 2025
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The manuscript investigates the role of the membrane-deforming cytoskeletal regulator protein Abba in cortical development and its potential implications for microcephaly. It is a valuable contribution to the understanding of Abba's role in cortical development. The strengths and weaknesses identified in the manuscript are outlined below:

      Clinical Relevance:

      The authors identified a patient with microcephaly and intellectual disability patient harboring a mutation in the Abba variant (R671W), adding a clinically relevant dimension to the study.

      Mechanistic Insights:

      The study offers valuable mechanistic insights into the development of microcephaly by elucidating the role of Abba in radial glial cell proliferation, radial fiber organization, and the migration of neuronal progenitors. The identification of Abba's involvement in the cleavage furrow during cell division, along with its interaction with Nedd9 and positive influence on RhoA activity, adds depth to our understanding of the molecular processes governing cortical development.

      In Vivo Validation:

      The overexpression of mutant Abba protein (R671W), which results in phenotypic similarities to Abba knockdown effects, supports the significance of Abba in cortical development.

      Weaknesses:

      The findings in the study suggest that heterozygous expression of the R671W variant may exert a dominant-negative effect on ABBA's role, disrupting normal brain development and leading to microcephaly and cognitive delay. However, evidence also points to a possible gain-of-function effect, as the mutation does not decrease RhoA activity or PH3 expression in vivo. Additionally, the impact of ABBA depletion on cell fate is not fully addressed. While abnormal progenitor accumulation in the ventricular and subventricular zones is observed, the transition of progenitors to neuroblasts and their ability to support neuroblast migration remains unclear. Impaired cleavage furrow ingression and disrupted Nedd9 and RhoA signaling could lead to structural abnormalities in radial glial progenitors, affecting their scaffold function and neuroblast progression.  The manuscript lacks an exploration of the loss or decrease in interaction between Abba and NEDD9 in the case of the pathogenic patient-derived mutation in Abba. Furthermore, addressing the changes in localization and ineraction in for NEDD9 following over-expression of the mutant are important to further mehcanistically characterizxe this interaction in future studies. These gaps suggest the need for further exploration of ABBA's role in progenitor cell fate and neuroblast migration to clarify its mechanistic contributions to cortical development.

      (1) Response to statement on dominant-negative vs. gain-of-function effect of R671W variant:

      We appreciate the reviewer’s thoughtful analysis of the potential mechanisms underlying the R671W variant. We agree that the heterozygous expression of the human R671W mutation may initially suggest a dominant-negative effect. However, our data indicate that this variant may instead exert a gain-of-function effect. As highlighted in the discussion section, overexpression of ABBA-R671W in cells that also express wild-type ABBA did not result in a dominant-negative decrease in RhoA activation nor affect PH3 expression in vivo. These findings suggest that the R671W mutation does not impair the canonical ABBA-mediated activation of RhoA, and instead, the resulting phenotype may involve post-mitotic processes, such as altered cell migration. This interpretation is further supported by previous clinical studies reporting additional patients with the same mutation and phenotypic outcomes.

      (2) Response to statement on ABBA depletion and progenitor-to-neuroblast transition:

      We agree that the question of how ABBA depletion affects cell fate and the progression of radial glial progenitors (RGPs) to neuroblasts is of significant importance. Our findings suggest that ABBA knockdown disrupts cleavage furrow ingression, which may block radial glial cells prior to abscission. This likely contributes to the observed accumulation of cells in the ventricular and subventricular zones, as seen in Figures 2A and 4D. Additionally, disrupted Nedd9 expression and impaired RhoA signaling appear to alter the structural integrity of RGPs, leading to detachment of apical and basal endfeet (Supplementary Figure 3). These structural abnormalities compromise the ability of RGPs to function as scaffolds for neuroblast migration. Although direct live imaging of neuroblast migration was beyond the scope of the current dataset, we believe our evidence strongly supports a model in which ABBA depletion disrupts progenitor structure and migration. Future studies will address these transitions more directly using live imaging and fate-mapping strategies

      (3) Response to statement on loss of interaction between ABBA and NEDD9 with the R671W mutation:

      We fully agree with the importance of investigating whether the R671W mutation alters ABBA’s interaction with NEDD9. While our study provides evidence for a role of NEDD9 in mediating ABBA function, we acknowledge that we did not directly test whether the R671W mutation disrupts this interaction. We apologize if our manuscript conveyed the impression that this point had been fully addressed. Due to technical limitations, particularly the poor performance of anti-NEDD9 antibodies in slice immunohistochemistry, we were unable to reliably assess the interaction or localization changes in vivo. Nevertheless, this remains a priority for future studies aimed at better understanding the mechanistic underpinnings of the R671W mutation.

      (4) Response to statement on future directions for mechanistic characterization of NEDD9 localization and interaction:

      We agree with the reviewer that further investigation into NEDD9 localization and its interaction with the ABBA R671W mutant is essential to better define the molecular consequences of this mutation. Unfortunately, as mentioned above, the current tools available to us did not permit reliable immunohistochemical detection of NEDD9 in tissue. We fully intend to pursue alternative approaches, such as tagging strategies or the use of more sensitive detection platforms, to determine whether the R671W mutation affects the subcellular localization or stability of the ABBA-NEDD9 interaction. These experiments will be critical to elucidate the pathway through which ABBA regulates progenitor cell behavior and cortical development.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Carabalona and colleagues investigated the role of the membrane-deforming cytoskeletal regulator protein Abba (MTSS1L/MTSS2) in cortical development to better understand the mechanisms of abnormal neural stem cell mitosis. The authors used short hairpin RNA targeting Abba20 with a fluorescent reporter coupled with in utero electroporation of E14 mice to show changes to neural progenitors. They performed flow cytometry for in-depth cell cycle analysis of Abba-shRNA impact to neural progenitors and determined an accumulation in S phase. Using culture rat glioma cells and live imaging from cortical organotypic slides from mice in utero electroporated with Abba-shRNA, the authors found Abba played a prominent role in cytokinesis. They then used a yeast-two-hybrid screen to identify three high confidence interactors: Beta-Trcp2, Nedd9, and Otx2. They used immunoprecipitation experiments from E18 cortical tissue coupled with C6 cells to show Abba requirement for Nedd9 localization to the cleavage furrow/cytokinetic bridge. The authors performed an shRNA knockdown of Nedd9 by in utero electroporation of E14 mice and observed similar results as with the Abba-shRNA. They tested a human variant of Abba using in utero electroporation of cDNA and found disorganized radial glial fibers and misplaced, multipolar neurons, but lacked the impact of cell division seen in the shRNA-Abba model.

      Strengths:

      Fundamental question in biology about the mechanics of neural stem cell division.

      Directly connecting effects in Abba protein to downstream regulation of RhoA via Nedd9.

      Incorporation of human mutation in ABBA gene.

      Use of novel technologies in neurodevelopment and imaging.

      Weaknesses:

      Unexplored components of the pathway (such as what neurogenic populations are impacted by Abba mutation) and unleveraged aspects of their data (such as the live imaging) limit the scope of their findings and left significant questions about the effect of ABBA on radial glia development.

      (1) Claim of disorganized radial glial fibers lacks quantifications.

      - On page 11, the authors claim that knockdown of Abba lead to changes in radial glial morphology observed with vimentin staining. Here they claim misoriented apical processes, detached end feet, and decreased number of RGP cells in the VZ. However, they no not provide quantification of process orientation to better support their first claim. Measurements of radial glia fiber morphology (directionality, length) and of angle of division would be metrics that can be applied to data. Some of these analysis could be done in their time-lapse microscopy images, such as to quantify the number of cell division during their period of analysis (though that is short-15 hours).

      Response to: Lack of quantification of disorganized radial glial fibers and cell divisions in time-lapse data

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comment regarding the need for quantification of radial glial (RG) fiber morphology. In the revised manuscript, we have addressed this by providing new quantification of changes in vimentin staining, specifically measuring the dispersion of the signal as a proxy for fiber disorganization (see Supplementary Figure 1). These data support the observed morphological changes, including misoriented apical processes and detachment of endfeet, following Abba knockdown.

      Regarding time-lapse analysis to track cell divisions, we attempted to follow individual cells during the 15-hour imaging window. However, due to the relatively short duration and limited number of cells that could be reliably tracked, the dataset did not allow for statistically meaningful conclusions. As an alternative approach, we performed live-cell imaging using Anillin-GFP, a reliable marker of mitotic progression. The distribution and accumulation of Anillin-GFP were analyzed in ABBA-shRNA3 and control conditions, and the results (now included in Supplementary Figure 3) indicate an increased number of cells arrested in late mitosis upon ABBA knockdown. This supports the notion of disrupted cytokinesis as a consequence of Abba depletion.

      (2) Unclear where effect is:

      - In RG or neuroblasts? Is it in cell cleavage that results in accumulation of cells at VZ (as sometimes indicated by their data like in Fig 2A or 4D)? Interrogation of cell death (such as by cleaved caspase 3) would also help. Given their time lapse, can they identify what is happening to the RG fiber? The authors describe a change in "migration" but do not show evidence for this for either progenitor or neuroblast populations. Given they have nice time-lapse imaging data, could they visualize progenitor versus young neuron migration? Analysis of neuroblasts (such as with doublecortin expression in the tissue) would also help understand any issues in migration (of neurons v stem cells).

      - At cleaveage furrow? In abscission? There is high resolution data that highlights the cleavage furrow as the location of interest (fig 3A), however there is also data (fig 3B) to suggest Abba is expressed elsewhere as well and there is an overall soma decrease. More detail of the localization of Abba during the division process would be helpful-for example, could cleavage furrow proteins, such as Aurora B, co-localization (and potentially co-IP) help delineate subpopulations of Abba protein? Furthermore, the FRET imaging is unique way to connect their mutation with function-could they measure/quantify differences at furrow compared to rest of soma to further corroborate that Abba-associated RhoA effect was furrow-enriched?

      - The data highlights nicely that a furrow doesn't clearly form when ABBA expression and subsequent RhoA activity are decreased (in Fig 3 or 5A). Does this lead to cells that can't divide because of poor abscission, especially since "rounding" still occurs? Or abnormal progenitors (with loss of fiber or inability to support neuroblast migration)? Or abnormal progression of progenitors to neuroblasts?

      Response to: Unclear location of the effect (RG vs. neuroblasts; cleavage furrow/abscission; migration issues)

      We thank the reviewer for this comprehensive and thought-provoking set of questions.

      a) Site of the effect – Radial Glia vs. Neuroblasts:

      Our data suggest that the primary effect of ABBA depletion occurs in radial glial progenitors (RGPs), specifically prior to abscission. We observed accumulation of electroporated cells in the ventricular zone (VZ), which we interpret as a result of cytokinetic failure (e.g., Figure 2A, 4D). We also documented detachment of apical and basal endfeet (see Supplementary Figure 3), further supporting structural disruption of RG fibers.

      b) Cell death analysis:

      We considered using cleaved caspase-3 as a marker for apoptosis, but due to its transient and non-specific activation during development, we opted to assess overall survival via quantification of RGP cell numbers and localization. This approach better reflects the developmental impact of ABBA knockdown (Supplementary Figure 3).

      c) Migration defects:

      We agree that distinguishing between progenitor and neuroblast migration would be highly informative. Although we did not perform doublecortin or similar staining to differentiate these populations in this dataset, the accumulation of electroporated cells in VZ/SVZ strongly suggests a migration deficit. Addressing this in detail will require new experiments using lineage-specific markers and longer time-lapse recordings, which we plan to explore in future studies.

      d) Cleavage furrow and abscission:

      Our high-resolution imaging of Anillin-GFP and FRET-based RhoA activity shows that ABBA localizes predominantly at the cleavage furrow. New quantifications of RhoA activity (now in Figure 5) show that the reduction in signaling is most pronounced at the furrow in ABBA knockdown cells. These findings align with the hypothesis that ABBA, through Nedd9 and RhoA, is essential for proper furrow formation and abscission.

      e) Mechanistic implications:

      As the reviewer notes, ABBA knockdown leads to cells that "round" but do not complete division, likely due to poor cleavage furrow ingression. This could generate abnormal progenitors that are structurally compromised (detached fibers) and thus unable to support neuroblast migration or proper differentiation. The cumulative result is disrupted progression from RGPs to neuroblasts, impaired structural scaffolding, and possibly reduced cell viability.

      (3) Limited to a singular time point of mouse cortical development

      On page 13, the authors outline the results of their Y2H screen with the identification of three high confidence interactors. Notably, they used a E10.5-E12.5 mouse brain embryo library rather than one that includes E14, the age of their in utero electroporation mice. Many of the authors' claims focus on in utero electroporation of shRNA-Abba of E14 mice that are then evaluated at E16-18. Justification for the focus on this age range should be included to support that their findings can then be applied to all of mouse corticogenesis.

      Response to: Use of E10.5–E12.5 library for yeast-two-hybrid (Y2H) screen

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern regarding the developmental stage of the Y2H library. We chose the E10.5–E12.5 brain embryo library based on prior work demonstrating that ABBA expression is strongest during early cortical development, particularly in radial glia at these stages (see Saarikangas et al., J Cell Sci 2008). The radial glia-specific expression of ABBA was previously validated using RC2 and Tuj1 markers at E12.5. Thus, the library we used is well-suited for identifying interactors relevant to radial glial function, including Nedd9. We have clarified this rationale in the revised manuscript.

      (4) Detail of the effect of the human variant of the ABBA mutation in mouse is lacking.

      Their identification of the R671W mutation is interesting and the IUE model warrants more characterization, as they did with their original KD experiments.

      - Could they show that Abba protein levels are decreased (in either cell lines or electroporated tissue)?

      - While time-lapse morphology might not have been performed, more analysis on cell division phenotype (such as plane of division and radial glia morphology) would be helpful.

      Response to: Lack of detail on R671W human variant effects

      We thank the reviewer for encouraging further characterization of the R671W variant. In the revised manuscript, we now provide additional data on interkinetic nuclear migration (INM) defects resulting from R671W overexpression (see Supplementary Figure 3). These changes are consistent with disrupted radial glial organization and mirror aspects of the ABBA knockdown phenotype.

      a) Protein levels:

      We quantified ABBA expression in cells overexpressing the R671W variant (Supplementary Figure 5) and found no significant reduction compared to wild-type. This argues against a loss-of-function mechanism and supports a gain-of-function or dominant-interfering effect.

      b) Morphological and division phenotyping:

      While time-lapse imaging of R671W-expressing cells was not available in our dataset, we acknowledge that analyses such as division angle or radial glial morphology would be informative. Unfortunately, we were unable to perform these with the current data, but we agree these are important goals for future work.

      Reviewer 2 conclusion:

      The resubmission has addressed many of the questions raised.

      I have a few comments that should be addressed:

      (1) The authors maintain a deficit in "migration of immature neurons" which remains unsubstantiated. In their resonse, they state: "we believe that the data showing the accumulation of migrating electroporated cells in the ventricular (V) and subventricular (SV) zones provide compelling evidence of abnormal migration in ABBA-shRNA electroporated cells. "

      - Firstly, they do not demonstrate that it's immature neurons, not RGs, that are affected. Secondly, accumulation of cells at the V-SVZ could be due to soley the inability for the RGC to undergo mitosis, therefore remaining stuck"

      The commentary of migration, especially of neurons, should be modified.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s careful reading and valid concern regarding our use of the term "migration of immature neurons." We fully agree that the current dataset does not definitively distinguish whether the accumulated cells in the ventricular (V) and subventricular (SV) zones are immature neurons or radial glial progenitors (RGPs) arrested in mitosis.

      To clarify, our observations indicate that electroporated cells accumulate in the VZ/SVZ following ABBA knockdown (Figures 2A and 4D), and this was interpreted as evidence of impaired migration. However, we now recognize that this accumulation may primarily reflect a block in cell cycle progression—specifically, at the stage of cleavage furrow ingression and abscission—rather than a migratory defect per se. This is supported by our new data using Anillin-GFP (Supplementary Figure 3), which show increased accumulation of cells with persistent Anillin expression, consistent with mitotic arrest. Furthermore, the detachment of apical and basal processes (also shown in Supplementary Figure 3) suggests that ABBA knockdown affects the structural integrity of RGPs, potentially compromising their scaffold function.

      In light of these points, we have revised the manuscript to temper our conclusions regarding “migration defects.” Specifically, we now refer to the phenotype as “abnormal accumulation of progenitor cells” and clarify that, while these findings are consistent with impaired cell progression or scaffolding required for migration, we do not directly demonstrate impaired migration of immature neurons. As suggested, addressing this would require additional analyses, such as time-lapse imaging of post-mitotic cells or staining with markers like Doublecortin, which are beyond the scope of the current dataset but will be a focus of future investigations.

      We thank the reviewer again for encouraging a more precise interpretation of our findings

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Supplementary Fig 4B - The figure doesn't show an increase in percentage of PH3 positive cells in the NEDD9-shRNA condition. The control images are also missing for comparison. The figure legend needs to be corrected to match with the figure showing no significant changes.

      Thank you for this comment. This has been amended in the revised manuscript in the form of a new revised Supplementary Fig 4.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Minor annotations for slice culture assay

      The authors should make note of ages of slice cultures in text and have better annotations of slice cultures (for example, in Fig 4-where is mitosis?)

      We are sorry for the mistake it's not mitosis, it's the cleavage furrow stage.  In addition, a new amended Figure 4 is provided. 

      The effects are hard to see in lower mag slice images in Fig. 6. Would recommend focusing on higher mag to highlight RG differences.

      Thank you for this comment. This has been amended in the revised manuscript in the form of a new revised Figure 6.

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    Annotators

    1. Note de Synthèse : Psychologie Politique et Idéologies Autoritaires

      Introduction

      Le podcast "Etthique et Psycho" explore l'adhésion aux idées autoritaires, violentes ou réactionnaires à travers le prisme de la psychologie sociale et politique. Vicis et Shaikent de "hacking social" discutent des mécanismes psychologiques qui influencent nos croyances, attitudes et comportements politiques. Ils soulignent l'importance d'une approche scientifique et empirique, basée sur des recherches rigoureuses, pour comprendre ces phénomènes complexes.

      1. Psychologie Politique et Psychologie Sociale

      • Définition et Objet d'Étude : La psychologie politique est une branche scientifique de la psychologie qui analyse les mécanismes psychologiques influençant le rapport des individus aux idéologies, partis, leaders, ainsi que les dynamiques collectives comme la polarisation. Elle étudie également le soutien aux hiérarchies, aux inégalités et les violences politiques.
      • Relation avec la Psychologie Sociale : La psychologie politique est considérée comme une application de la psychologie sociale au domaine politique. Il n'y a pas de frontière rigide entre les deux disciplines.

      2. Définition de Gauche et Droite en Psychologie Politique

      • Complexité de la Définition : Il n'existe pas de définition absolue et universelle de la gauche et de la droite. Une distinction importante doit être faite entre les positions économiques et socioculturelles.
      • Dimensions Clés : La psychologie politique contemporaine tend à définir la gauche et la droite selon deux grandes dimensions :
      • Axe Égalité vs Hiérarchie : Une préférence pour l'égalité (gauche) versus une préférence pour le statu quo/hiérarchie (droite).
      • Axe Ouverture vs Tradition : Une préférence pour l'ouverture et l'autonomie (gauche) versus une préférence pour l'ordre, la tradition et l'uniformité (droite).
      • Décalage entre Affichage et Croyances Effectives : Il peut exister un écart important entre l'étiquette politique revendiquée et les croyances, attitudes et comportements idéologiques effectifs d'une personne. La psychologie s'intéresse particulièrement à la "sous-structure motivationnelle", c'est-à-dire les motivations profondes qui orientent les affinités idéologiques.

      3. Critique de l'Approche Psychologisante et Individualisante

      • Conciliation Individu-Structure : La critique selon laquelle la psychologie politique serait trop psychologisante ou individualisante est abordée. Il est expliqué que la psychologie scientifique actuelle considère le comportement humain comme le résultat d'une interaction complexe entre différents facteurs : biologiques, dispositions individuelles, environnement social direct, contexte politique et économique. Il ne s'agit pas de réduire les comportements à l'individu seul.
      • Regarder l'Individu comme un Reflet de la Société : En psychologie, regarder l'individu permet aussi de voir le reflet de la société et de comprendre comment les structures sociales influencent le comportement.
      • Confusion avec la Psychopathologisation : La psychologie politique est parfois confondue avec des approches cliniques ou la psychanalyse, et accusée de psychopathologiser les personnes ayant des idées différentes. Les concepts comme RWA (Autoritarisme de Droite) ou SDO (Orientation à la Dominance Sociale) ne sont pas des troubles mentaux, mais des mesures de tendances et d'attitudes.
      • La Question de l'Environnement Social : L'approche psychologique ne nie pas l'influence de l'environnement social et des conditions matérielles ; elle étudie précisément comment ces influences s'exercent et façonnent l'individu, en complément des approches sociologiques.

      4. Pourquoi les Gens Votent Contre Leurs Intérêts ?

      • Au-delà de l'Homo Economicus : L'idée de l'électeur rationnel (Homo economicus), qui voterait selon son intérêt personnel ou de classe, est considérée comme incomplète. Il existe des phénomènes où des personnes précaires votent contre leurs intérêts matériels.
      • Importance des Émotions : Les émotions jouent un rôle crucial dans les décisions politiques. Nous sommes des "animaux qui rationalisons", et nos choix politiques ne sont pas uniquement le résultat d'un calcul logique. Les émotions comme la colère ou la peur peuvent être des moteurs puissants de nos convictions et actions politiques.
      • Le Rôle des Valeurs : Les valeurs (comme les valeurs de Schwartz) sont souvent de meilleurs prédicateurs de nos choix politiques que notre statut social ou notre intérêt personnel. On peut prioriser ses valeurs, même si cela va à l'encontre de son intérêt matériel direct.
      • Éviter le Jugement : Qualifier les gens de "cons" parce qu'ils votent de manière apparemment irrationnelle est une démarche à éviter. Cela bloque la compréhension et peut relever de l'autovalorisation.
      • Attention aux Visions Simplistes : Considérer que le problème est que les gens "pensent mal" ou que le cerveau est "nul" peut mener à des visions idéologiques potentiellement dangereuses, justifiant un contrôle ou une hiérarchie (paternalisme libertarien), en ignorant la complexité des biais et leur utilité dans certains contextes.

      5. Les Concepts Clés : RWA et SDO

      RWA (Right-Wing Authoritarianism - Autoritarisme de Droite) : * Origine : Forgé par Bob Altemeyer pour corriger l'échelle F des années 50, qui mesurait la personnalité autoritaire. * Dimensions : Mesure l'autoritarisme en termes d'attitude et de comportement, caractérisé par trois dimensions : * Conventionnalisme/Traditionnalisme : Tendance à adhérer aux conventions et traditions (normes morales, rôles de genre traditionnels, etc.). * Agressivité Autoritaire : Attitudes et comportements préjudiciables ou violents envers des groupes extérieurs ou perçus comme menaçants (préjugés envers les minorités, xénophobie, etc.). * Soumission Autoritaire : Soumission aux autorités établies ou reconnues. * Validité : L'échelle RWA est validée et prédit des comportements autoritaires (soumission à l'autorité, soutien aux violences éducatives), ainsi que de forts préjugés et des affinités idéologiques (les scores élevés se retrouvent majoritairement à droite). * Vision du Monde : Les personnes avec un score RWA élevé ont tendance à percevoir le monde comme dangereux, ce qui alimente la peur et le besoin de sécurité et d'ordre. Elles sont sensibles aux discours de menace envers leur groupe d'appartenance. * Empathie : L'empathie chez les personnes RWA peut être cloisonnée, limitée à leur groupe d'appartenance. * SDO (Social Dominance Orientation - Orientation à la Dominance Sociale) : * Mesure : Mesure le versant "domination" de l'autorité, c'est-à-dire les attitudes et comportements qui promeuvent les inégalités sociales et la hiérarchie. * Vision du Monde : La vision du monde est plus compétitive ("la loi du plus fort", "le monde est une jungle") que basée sur la menace existentielle. La menace perçue est liée à la perte de statut social ou de pouvoir. * Lien avec le Narcissisme : Le SDO est connecté au narcissisme, une attitude où l'on s'estime avoir plus de droits et mériter plus de liberté que les autres. Le discours de liberté des personnes SDO peut être centré sur leur propre groupe, voire sur l'individu. * Empathie et Cynisme : Les personnes SDO peuvent avoir des problèmes d'empathie et un cynisme fort, avec un intérêt égocentré. Leur soutien est conditionnel à leur intérêt, même au sein de leur propre groupe. Le SDO est plus difficile à changer que le RWA. * Lien avec les Classes Sociales et le Genre : Le SDO est fortement corrélé aux classes sociales et à l'origine sociale. Les personnes socialement valorisées (les hommes en moyenne, notamment favorisés) tendent à avoir un SDO plus élevé. Plus une personne est discriminée, moins elle a de SDO. * Connexion avec la Tétraide Noire : Le SDO est associé aux traits de la tétraide noire (machiavélisme, psychopathie, narcissisme, sadisme), notamment au sadisme, avec un plaisir à voir la souffrance ou l'échec d'autrui, interprété comme une victoire personnelle. * Interaction RWA et SDO : Il est possible d'avoir des scores élevés dans les deux dimensions, ce qui extrémise généralement les discours et peut mener à des préjugés contradictoires (ex: un groupe cible est à la fois menaçant et faible).

      6. Causes et Flexibilité du RWA et du SDO

      • Antécédents : L'éducation et le contexte familial (environnement strict, favorisant l'obéissance) peuvent influencer le RWA, bien que l'environnement ne détermine pas entièrement l'individu. La perception d'un monde dangereux nourrit le RWA.
      • Malléabilité du RWA : Le RWA est malléable et sensible aux événements et périodes de crise (pandémies, attentats), qui tendent à l'augmenter. À l'inverse, les environnements ouverts, inclusifs, promouvant la diversité et l'autonomie (comme les campus universitaires) tendent à réduire le RWA.
      • Stabilité du SDO : Le SDO est beaucoup plus stable que le RWA et moins sensible aux situations. Il est fortement lié au statut social.
      • Environnement Compétitif : Les environnements qui prônent la compétition et le mérite (école, certains milieux professionnels) peuvent renforcer le SDO. La sensibilité à la menace au statut social ou au pouvoir peut déclencher l'agressivité chez les personnes SDO (ex: réactions dans le milieu du jeu vidéo face à des personnages féminins forts).

      7. Autoritarisme de Gauche (LWA)

      • Existence d'Autoritarisme à Gauche : L'existence d'attitudes et de comportements autoritaires chez des individus ou groupes se revendiquant de gauche n'est pas niée par les chercheurs.
      • Concept de LWA : La pertinence du concept d'"autoritarisme de gauche" (LWA - Left-Wing Authoritarianism), défini comme un autoritarisme s'articulant selon des valeurs de gauche, est débattue.
      • Recherches Passées et Présentes : Des recherches sur le LWA ont été menées dès les années 50 et plus récemment dans les années 2010. Cependant, elles sont largement critiquées.
      • Critiques des Modèles Actuels : Les approches actuelles du LWA sont critiquées pour être trop centrées sur le contexte américain contemporain et pour reposer sur de "fausses équivalences" avec le RWA. Un exemple cité est l'item qui assimile la confiance dans la méthode scientifique à une soumission aveugle, contrairement à la soumission à des figures d'autorité politique ou religieuse mesurée par le RWA.
      • Absence de Validité Prédictive : Les modèles actuels du LWA ne parviennent pas à prédire des comportements autoritaires comme le fait le RWA.
      • Consensus des Chercheurs : Il existe un consensus selon lequel l'autoritarisme est fortement corrélé aux idéologies de droite, et qu'on ne peut établir une équivalence ou une symétrie idéologique entre la gauche et la droite sur la question de l'autoritarisme.
      • Alternatives Conceptuelles : Certains chercheurs suggèrent que ce que les recherches sur le LWA tentent de mesurer pourrait être mieux décrit comme des tendances "antidémocratiques à gauche" plutôt que comme un autoritarisme équivalent au RWA.
      • Position des Locuteurs : Les locuteurs expliquent qu'ils se concentrent sur l'autoritarisme de droite car les concepts de RWA et SDO sont validés et ont fait leurs preuves pour prédire les comportements autoritaires et les oppressions associées, ce qui n'est pas encore le cas du LWA.

      8. L'Efficacité Limitée de l'Argumentation pour Convaincre

      • L'Illusion du Choix Rationnel : S'appuyer uniquement sur l'argumentation pour faire changer d'avis repose sur l'illusion que nos choix politiques sont guidés par la seule rationalité.
      • Aller au-delà de la Surface : Les systèmes de croyances et positions politiques s'enracinent dans des besoins et motivations profonds (sous-structure motivationnelle). L'argumentation reste souvent à la surface.
      • Comprendre les Besoins et Motivations : Pour engager un dialogue potentiellement constructif, il est plus pertinent de chercher à comprendre le "pourquoi" des positions de l'autre, ses valeurs et ses motivations.
      • Adapter son Discours : Adapter son discours aux valeurs de l'interlocuteur peut réduire la mise sur la défensive, sans pour autant valider des propos préjudiciables. Il s'agit de chercher des points d'ancrage dans leur propre système de valeurs pour proposer d'autres perspectives.
      • Les Croyances Bénéfiques : Certaines personnes soutiennent des politiques ou idéologies parce qu'elles correspondent à des croyances qui leur sont bénéfiques psychologiquement, même si elles sont objectivement préjudiciables. La justification du système (croire que le monde est juste, stable, ordonné) peut pousser à voter contre ses intérêts.
      • Les Bénéfices Psychologiques de l'Idéologie : Les idéologies peuvent apporter un sentiment de contrôle, de prévisibilité, voire de supériorité, qui répond à des besoins psychologiques, surtout en situation de précarité ou d'incertitude. Les discours complotistes peuvent aussi apporter un sentiment de ne pas être naïf.
      • L'Échec du Débunking Seul : Démontrer la fausseté d'une idée (débunking) ne suffit pas à faire changer les gens d'avis, car l'adhésion repose sur des motivations et des besoins plus profonds que la seule rationalité.

      9. Lutter Contre les Oppressions : Outils et Pistes

      • Régulation Émotionnelle et Compétences Socio-Émotionnelles : Développer la capacité à travailler avec ses émotions, à les accepter et à se flexibiliser émotionnellement est essentiel. L'émotion est un signal précieux qui nous lie à notre situation et peut nous pousser à l'action (courage, désobéissance). L'empathie permet de se lier aux autres.
      • L'Ouverture : L'ouverture au changement, à l'expérience, est l'antithèse de l'autoritarisme. Nourrir cette ouverture par la créativité, l'empathie, la prise de perspective permet de résister aux logiques de domination et d'imaginer d'autres modes d'existence collective.
      • Le Rôle de l'Environnement Social : Changer d'environnement social (ex: déménager, rencontrer de nouvelles personnes, fréquenter des lieux diversifiés comme l'université) peut contribuer à ébranler les idéologies autoritaires.
      • Repenser les Cadres Institutionnels : Remettre en cause les cadres compétitifs (école, certains milieux professionnels) qui alimentent le SDO et les rapports de domination est important pour lutter contre le harcèlement et les oppressions. Favoriser les liens, la coopération et la motivation intrinsèque est crucial.
      • Le Rôle de l'Art et de la Fiction : L'art et la fiction peuvent être des outils puissants pour développer l'ouverture, l'empathie et la prise de perspective en nous permettant de nous mettre à la place des autres et d'explorer de nouvelles réalités.

      Conclusion

      • L'analyse de la psychologie politique révèle la complexité de l'adhésion aux idéologies autoritaires, qui ne peut être réduite à une simple question de rationalité ou d'intérêt matériel. Les concepts de RWA et SDO fournissent un cadre solide pour comprendre les mécanismes psychologiques sous-jacents, notamment la soumission à l'autorité, la promotion de la hiérarchie sociale, la peur et le besoin de sécurité. Lutter contre les oppressions nécessite de s'attaquer aux racines profondes de ces tendances, en développant la régulation émotionnelle, l'empathie, l'ouverture au changement, et en repensant les environnements sociaux et institutionnels qui peuvent nourrir ces dynamiques. L'argumentation seule est insuffisante ; il est crucial de comprendre les besoins et motivations des individus pour espérer susciter un changement de perspective.

      Cette note de synthèse s'efforce de capturer les thèmes centraux et les idées clés discutées dans les extraits, en utilisant des citations directes lorsque cela est pertinent.

    1. Briefing : Les compétences émotionnelles chez l’enfant

      Source : Extrait du webinaire gratuit "Les compétences émotionnelles chez l’enfant" de l'APPEA,

      Présentatrice : Anna Malika Kamblatz, Docteur en neuropsychologie, Présidente fondatrice de Emmopsie, membre du conseil scientifique de Whatsup neuropsychologie clinique.

      Thème : Définition, développement et évaluation des compétences émotionnelles chez l'enfant.

      Introduction et Contexte :

      Le webinaire, 60ème du nom pour l APPEA, accueille Anna Malika Kamblatz pour aborder un sujet jugé essentiel mais encore insuffisamment outillé : les compétences émotionnelles chez l'enfant.

      L'enregistrement sera disponible en replay, ainsi que le support PowerPoint.

      Il est précisé qu'aucune attestation de formation n'est délivrée pour ce format gratuit.

      Anna Malika Kamblatz, forte de 15 ans de recherche, principalement à l'université de Bordeaux, s'est intéressée au lien entre émotion et cognition et à l'efficacité des prises en charge thérapeutiques.

      Son projet actuel, Emopsie, vise à créer une batterie d'évaluation des compétences émotionnelles pour les enfants, conçue en collaboration avec des enseignants chercheurs et des psychologues de terrain.

      Définition et Modèles des Compétences Émotionnelles :

      Ressentir une émotion provoque des changements cognitifs, physiologiques et comportementaux. La manière d'y réagir dépend des compétences émotionnelles.

      Modèle de Sarnie : Une des premières à théoriser le concept, elle identifie neuf compétences (conscience de ses émotions, vocabulaire émotionnel, empathie...). Elle insiste sur le rôle primordial du contexte social, rendant difficile l'évaluation standardisée.

      Courant de l'Intelligence Émotionnelle : Développé en parallèle, ce courant se concentre sur la capacité à raisonner sur les émotions.

      Il implique la capacité à percevoir les émotions, les utiliser pour favoriser la réflexion, les comprendre et les réguler.

      Ces habiletés sont considérées comme entraînables et évaluables, relevant de processus cognitifs.

      L'intelligence émotionnelle a été popularisée (notamment par Goleman) et parfois transformée.

      Modèle de Nicolas Jacques (2009) : Ayant synthétisé les principaux modèles d'intelligence émotionnelle, Nicolas Jacques propose un modèle basé sur les dimensions les plus récurrentes et utilise le terme de "compétences émotionnelles". Son modèle initial inclut la capacité à :

      • Reconnaître les émotions.
      • Exprimer les émotions.
      • Comprendre les causes et conséquences d'une émotion.
      • Mettre en place des stratégies de régulation.
      • Utiliser les émotions pour modifier les actions.

      Une méta-analyse de 2024 suggère que la cinquième compétence serait plutôt une stratégie de régulation.

      Compétences retenues par Emopsie : Le projet Emopsie se concentre sur les quatre premières compétences identifiées par Nicolas Jacques, car des difficultés dans ces domaines sont largement démontrées dans diverses pathologies ou handicaps, entraînant des conséquences comme l'isolement social, des difficultés à repérer les situations à risque, un bien-être moindre et un risque accru de troubles anxieux/dépressifs.

      Les Quatre Compétences Clés et leur Évaluation :

      Anna Malika Kamblatz détaille ensuite chaque compétence, son développement et les outils d'évaluation existants ou en développement chez Emopsie.

      L'idée d'Emopsie est de créer des tests pertinents scientifiquement et adaptés à la pratique clinique, développés en itération avec des professionnels.

      Reconnaissance des Émotions : Définition : Capacité à identifier les émotions à partir d'expressions non verbales (visage, voix, corps) dans les interactions sociales.

      Cela permet de comprendre et de réagir aux attentes d'autrui et d'anticiper ses intentions.

      Développement : Se développe progressivement. Dès la naissance, les bases sont là. Vers 4 ans, reconnaissance de la joie, colère, tristesse. Plus tardivement la peur, puis la surprise et le dégoût (vers 10 ans).

      Vers 12 ans, les capacités sont similaires entre enfants et adultes, bien que la reconnaissance continue d'évoluer.

      La reconnaissance faciale implique d'explorer des zones clés (yeux, nez, bouche) et d'intégrer diverses informations, nécessitant la mémoire de travail.

      Évaluations existantes :Sous-test de la batterie Nepsie 2 : présentation d'un visage exprimant une émotion, choix parmi quatre propositions.

      DAN (version française) : catégorisation d'une émotion exprimée sur photo (faiblement ou fortement) parmi quatre choix (joie, colère, peur, tristesse). Critique des tests existants : Ils utilisent principalement des photos de visage, ne prenant pas en compte la voix, la posture et le mouvement dynamique des émotions dans les interactions réelles.

      Test Emopsie : Utilisation de vidéos d'enfants exprimant des émotions (joie, colère, peur, tristesse, fortement ou faiblement) via le visage, la voix et la posture. Demande d'identifier l'émotion.

      Il y a des niveaux de difficulté (émotions de plus en plus subtiles).

      Des scores sont obtenus par émotion, intensité, et pour les modalités (visage/posture seuls, voix seule).

      L'objectif est d'intégrer le dynamisme et les multiples canaux de l'expression émotionnelle.

      Expression des Émotions : Définition : Production d'émotions, verbale (langage) ou non verbale (visage, voix, posture). L'accent est mis ici sur le vocabulaire émotionnel verbal, jugé fondamental.

      • Importance du vocabulaire émotionnel : Permet de conceptualiser le ressenti affectif, de l'encadrer, de l'associer à des sensations, des causes, des stratégies de régulation. Facilite le partage avec l'entourage et la recherche d'aide.
      • Développement : Suit la même trajectoire que la reconnaissance. Mots relatifs à la joie, colère, tristesse apparaissent tôt. Peur, surprise, dégoût plus tardivement. Vers 11 ans, le vocabulaire se complexifie (autres catégories, émotions abstraites comme l'envie).
      • Vocabulaire réceptif vs expressif :Réceptif : Nombre de mots compris ("dictionnaire interne"). Évalué classiquement par appariement mot/image.
      • Expressif : Nombre de mots produits à l'oral. Évalué classiquement par des tâches de fluence verbale.
      • Évaluations existantes en français (vocabulaire émotionnel) : Peu de tests validés spécifiquement pour les enfants. Des tests de vocabulaire général existent. Il est crucial d'évaluer séparément le réceptif et l'expressif.
      • Tests Emopsie :Vocabulaire réceptif : Appariement mot émotionnel/image parmi quatre options. Niveaux de difficulté croissante.
      • Vocabulaire expressif : Tâche de fluence affective (dire le maximum de noms d'émotions en une minute). Les résultats sont influencés par l'exposition aux émotions (ex: le film "Vice Versa").
      • Compréhension des Émotions :
      • Définition : Capacité à saisir les causes d'une émotion, sa signification et comment en modifier les conséquences. Essentielle pour identifier les antécédents émotionnels, anticiper les réactions (les siennes et celles des autres) et adopter un comportement adapté.
      • Modèle développemental de Pis (et al.) : Trois grandes périodes :
      • Vers 3 ans (dimension externe) : Reconnaissance des émotions, compréhension que des événements externes peuvent en être la cause (perdre un jouet). Compréhension du lien mémoire/émotion (objets qui rappellent des souvenirs/émotions).
      • Vers 5 ans (dimension interne) : Compréhension que des événements internes (pensées, désirs, croyances) peuvent provoquer des émotions. Compréhension que l'émotion montrée n'est pas toujours celle ressentie intérieurement.
      • Vers 8 ans (dimension complexe) : Intégration du rôle de la régulation. Compréhension qu'on peut ressentir plusieurs émotions simultanément. Influence de la morale et des normes sociales sur les émotions. Le développement se poursuit de 3 à 11 ans.
      • Évaluations existantes :Test international de compréhension des émotions (très utilisé à l'étranger, moins en France malgré une version française) : Lecture d'une histoire, demande comment se sent le personnage, choix parmi quatre propositions. Critique : une seule histoire par composante, évaluation binaire (acquis/non acquis).
      • Tests en France (ex: QCEE) : Lecture d'histoires, identification de l'émotion du protagoniste. Souvent limités à l'influence des causes externes, entraînant des effets plafond.
      • Tests Emopsie : Utilisation de petits dessins animés (format plus adapté) représentant des situations émotionnelles quotidiennes. L'enfant suit un personnage et doit dire comment il se sent et pourquoi. L'évaluation porte sur la justification de l'enfant, et non l'émotion nommée. Les bonshommes bâtons minimisent les stéréotypes physiques. Chaque animation a une double lecture (externe/interne/souvenir) pour évaluer la complexité de la compréhension. L'évaluation est conversationnelle. Une deuxième tâche évalue la compréhension du fait de ressentir plusieurs émotions simultanément (proches temporellement ou en même temps).
      • Régulation des Émotions :
      • Définition : Influencer une émotion (diminuer, augmenter, maintenir, rendre plus positive/négative, modifier durée/intensité) en mettant en place des stratégies (techniques conscientes ou non, comportementales ou cognitives). Il existe une grande variété de stratégies (éviter, confronter, exprimer, masquer, penser, se distraire, ruminer...).
      • Développement : Au début, la régulation est assurée par l'entourage. Vers 2 ans, avec le langage, l'enfant devient plus actif. Jusqu'à 6 ans, stratégies majoritairement comportementales (taper dans un coussin). Avec le développement cognitif (langage, fonctions exécutives), les stratégies se complexifient. Vers 10 ans, processus de régulation de plus en plus internes (positiver, relativiser). Le développement va vers une autonomie croissante.
      • Adaptation des stratégies : L'idée de stratégies "adaptées" vs "inadaptées" est remise en question. La pertinence d'une stratégie dépend du contexte, des capacités et des besoins.
      • Modèles de Flexibilité de Régulation : Assez récents, ils postulent que face à une situation émotionnelle, on analyse le besoin de régulation, on cherche une stratégie dans son "répertoire", on l'applique et on évalue son efficacité. Si elle ne répond pas au besoin, il faut réanalyser la situation et chercher une autre stratégie, montrant une capacité à changer de type de stratégie. Peu d'études chez l'enfant sur ces modèles.
      • Évaluations existantes en français : Principalement des questionnaires évaluant la fréquence d'utilisation de stratégies (adaptées ou non) ou des concepts associés (labilité émotionnelle, acceptation, conscience...). Pas d'évaluation validée de la flexibilité de régulation chez l'enfant.
      • Test Emopsie : Évaluation de la flexibilité via des dessins animés. L'enfant s'imagine dans la situation, décrit comment il se sent et ce qu'il ferait/penserait (première stratégie). Deux "feedbacks négatifs" (si ça ne suffit pas, que ferais-tu d'autre ?). L'évaluation est qualitative (stratégies disponibles) et quantitative (largeur du répertoire, indice de persistance/rigidité à utiliser le même type de stratégie).
      • Projet Emopsie et Perspectives :
      • Statut des tests : Les tests Emopsie sont en cours de validation/étalonnage. Un appel est lancé pour trouver 600 enfants (6-12 ans inclus) pour participer (visio d'environ 1h15). Contact possible via le site Emopsie.
      • Public visé : Principalement les psychologues, mais une réflexion est en cours pour une utilisation par d'autres professionnels du médico-social (orthophonistes, psychomotriciens) selon les compétences évaluées.
      • Format : Application numérique (en ligne).
      • Accompagnement : Formation prévue pour l'utilisation de la batterie. Développement d'un centre de ressources avec des outils de psychoéducation et de remédiation (vidéos, dessins animés, jeux, roues des émotions/stratégies).
      • Études futures : Inclusion de groupes cliniques (TSA, TDAH, déficience intellectuelle) dès l'année prochaine pour évaluer la sensibilité des tests. Développement d'un manuel évolutif.
      • Versions pour adolescents et adultes : Envisagées après la version enfant. Deux versions possibles : une adaptée pour les personnes ayant un handicap (ex: déficience intellectuelle) avec des situations et émotions différentes ; une plus écologique pour les personnes sans déficience intellectuelle, utilisant l'Ecological Momentary Assessment (EMA) via smartphone pour évaluer les compétences dans le vécu quotidien.
      • Objectif de la batterie : Mesurer les quatre dimensions des compétences émotionnelles pour orienter la remédiation et cibler les domaines à travailler en priorité.
      • Corrélation entre les compétences : Bien que liées, les études Emopsie suggèrent que les compétences de reconnaissance et d'expression sont distinctes, notamment grâce à l'utilisation de choix multiples qui minimisent l'impact du vocabulaire sur la reconnaissance.
      • Impact de l'environnement : L'hypothèse est émise que l'exposition et la discussion ouverte sur les émotions en famille ou à l'école (via les compétences psychosociales) pourraient favoriser un développement plus précoce des compétences émotionnelles.
      • Émotions complexes vs sentiments : Distinction (selon une définition possible) entre émotions de base (courtes, intenses), émotions complexes (mélange d'émotions de base, courtes) et sentiments (états affectifs durables, comme l'amour).
      • Questions Diverses et Remarques :
      • Interrogations sur les outils de remédiation une fois l'évaluation faite. La mallette MOI (Méthode d'Observation et d'Intervention) du site Défi Science est citée comme ressource existante. Emopsie développera ses propres outils.
      • Question sur le lien entre l'attribution causale (causes internes/externes) et la compréhension des émotions. Anna Malika Kamblatz trouve la question intéressante mais n'a pas de réponse immédiate basée sur ses lectures.
      • Question sur les programmes pour les parents et leur implication dans la psychoéducation. Aujourd'hui, l'utilisation des roues des émotions est courante. Emopsie souhaite proposer des outils que les professionnels pourront partager avec les parents. Il manque des programmes complets pour travailler l'alexithymie par exemple.
      • Comment rester informé de l'avancement de la batterie ? Via le formulaire de contact sur le site Emopsie (pour laisser ses coordonnées et être recontacté) ou en suivant Anna Malika Kamblatz sur LinkedIn.
      • Question technique sur l'outil : proposera-t-il un système de rapport ou de datavision pour visualiser l'évolution des compétences ? Oui, c'est prévu, pour faciliter le suivi.
      • Question sur les effets test-retest potentiels. L'étude longitudinale prévue sur une cinquantaine d'enfants permettra d'évaluer cet effet d'apprentissage et l'évolution naturelle des compétences émotionnelles sur la durée. Aujourd'hui, il n'y a pas de réponse précise.
      • Quel aspect travailler en priorité chez un enfant avec un trouble neurodéveloppemental sans évaluation fine disponible ? Dépend des difficultés cognitives associées. Pour une déficience intellectuelle modérée, commencer par la reconnaissance. Pour le TSA sans DI, les difficultés pourraient être plus marquées dans la prosodie que la reconnaissance faciale visuelle (selon une étude). Emopsie développera une grille pour aider les psychologues à identifier les tests pertinents selon la plainte.
      • En conclusion, le webinaire souligne le manque criant d'outils validés pour évaluer les compétences émotionnelles chez l'enfant en France. Le projet Emopsie vise à combler cette lacune en proposant une batterie d'évaluation innovante et adaptée, basée sur les dernières recherches et conçue en étroite collaboration avec les professionnels de terrain, dans le but de faciliter le diagnostic et d'orienter les interventions.
    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Qi and colleagues investigated the role of Kallistatin pathway in increasing hippocampal amyloid-β plaques accumulation and tau hyperpholphorylation in Alzheimer's disease, linking the increased Kallistatin level in diabetic patients with a higher risk of Alzheimer's disease development. A Kallistatin overexpressing animal model was utilized, and memory impairment was assessed using Morris water maze and Y-maze. Kallistatin-related pathway protein levels were measured in the hippocampus, and phenotypes were rescued using fenofibrate and rosiglitazone. The current study provides evidence of a novel molecular mechanism linking diabetes and Alzheimer's disease, and suggests the potential use of fenofibrate to alleviate memory impairment. However, several issues need to be addressed before further consideration.

      Strengths:

      The finding of this study is novel. The finding will have great impacts on diabetes and AD research. The studies were well conducted, and results convincing.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The mechanism by which fenofibrate rescues memory loss in Kallistatin-transgenic mice is unclear. As a PPARα agonist, does fenofibrate target the Kallistatin pathway directly or indirectly? Please provide discussion based on literature supporting either possibility.<br /> (2) The current study exclusively investigated hippocampus. What about other cognitive memory-related regions, such as prefrontal cortex? Including data from these regions or discussing the possibility of their involvement could provide a more comprehensive understanding of the role of Kallistatin in memory impairment.<br /> (3) Fenofibrate rescued phenotypes in Kallistatin-transgenic mice while rosiglitazone, a PPARα agonist, did not. This result contradicts the manuscript's emphasis on a PPARα-associated mechanism. Please address this inconsistency.<br /> (4) Most of the immunohistochemistry images are unclear. Inserts have similar magnification to the original representative images, making judgments difficult. Please provide larger inserts with higher resolution.<br /> (5) The immunohistochemistry images in different figures were taken from different hippocampal subregions with different magnifications. Please maintain consistency, or explain why CA1, CA3 or DG was analyzed in each experiment.<br /> (6) Figure 5B is missing a title. Please add a title to maintain consistency with other graphs.<br /> (7) Please list statistical methods used in the figure legends, such as t-test or One way ANOVA with post-hoc tests.

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors have addressed the issues raised from the review. The manuscript has been revised accordingly.

    1. 下图介绍

      好的,我们来解释“Implicit statistical learning of deviants’ TP courses”(异常音转移概率的隐式统计学习)这一部分及其对应的图 3。

      这是文章的核心结果部分,旨在证明大脑能够在不注意的情况下,自动学习并编码随机听觉流中事件之间的转移概率(TPs),并找出哪些脑区参与了这个过程。

      分析内容解释:

      1. 目标: 验证大脑是否对动态变化的异常音类型之间的转移概率(TPs)敏感,以及是否有听觉皮层之外的脑区参与这种敏感性。
      2. TP 估计: 研究人员没有使用预设的固定 TP,而是模拟一个“理想观察者”,逐个试次(trial-by-trial)动态地更新对下一个异常音类型的预测概率。这个概率是基于当前异常音之前所有出现过的异常音序列计算出来的。由于标准音的出现模式是固定的,所以 TP 分析只聚焦在异常音类型之间的转移。因此,对于实验中的每一个异常音出现时刻,都有一个动态变化的 TP 值与之对应,表示这个异常音在其出现时的可预测程度。
      3. 核心关联分析: 对于每个电极通道,研究人员计算了每个异常音试次的标准化“编码信息”(在之前的分析中已验证其反映了对异常性的反应)与该试次对应的动态 TP 值之间的线性相关性。他们使用鲁棒线性回归来找到最佳拟合直线。
      4. 定义 TP 敏感性: 这条回归直线的斜率被定义为该通道的“TP 敏感性”(TP Sensitivity)
        • 斜率为 0:意味着该脑区对异常音的反应(编码信息)与它的可预测性(TP)无关。
        • 斜率为负(越负越敏感): 意味着当异常音的可预测性较低(TP 小)时,该脑区的编码信息较高(反应强);当异常音的可预测性较高(TP 大)时,该脑区的编码信息较低(反应弱)。这种模式正是“预测编码”理论所预测的:大脑对不符合预期的事件反应更强,对符合预期的事件反应较弱。

      图 3 解释:

      图 3 展示了隐式统计学习和 TP 敏感性的主要发现:

      • (a) 两个示例通道的 TP 敏感性:
        • 展示了两个不同电极通道的散点图示例,每个绿点代表一个异常音试次。
        • 横轴是该试次对应的动态 TP 值,纵轴是该试次的标准化编码信息值。
        • 通过拟合的直线可以看到这两者之间的关系。直线的斜率就是该通道的 TP 敏感性
        • 图中展示了一个高敏感性(斜率显著为负,如 -1.05)和一个低敏感性(斜率接近 0)的通道。这直观地显示了负斜率意味着低 TP 导致高编码信息。
      • (b) 跨受试者的显著通道比例:
        • 条形图显示了在每个 ROI 中,有多少比例的电极通道显示出统计学上显著的 TP 敏感性(即编码信息与 TP 之间的相关性不是偶然的)。括号中的数字表示显著通道的总数。误差条显示了这种显著比例在不同受试者之间的变异性。这个图强调了 TP 编码是一个广泛存在且在许多脑区都具有统计学意义的现象。
      • (c) TP 敏感性的空间分布:
        • 将每个电极通道计算出的 TP 敏感性值(即斜率)用颜色映射到大脑表面模型上。颜色深浅表示敏感性的高低和方向(例如,颜色越偏向负值方向,代表对低 TP 的反应越强)。
        • 每个小球的大小代表该通道 TP 敏感性结果的统计显著性(p 值),p 值越小(越显著)球越大。
        • 这个图直观地展示了大脑中哪些区域对转移概率最敏感,以及这种敏感性是如何分布的。可以看到敏感性广泛分布在皮层和皮层下区域。
      • (d) 按 ROI 划分的 TP 敏感性分布:
        • 与图 2(b) 类似,用小提琴图展示了每个 ROI 中所有电极通道的 TP 敏感性(斜率)值的分布
        • 黑线表示每个 ROI 的中位 TP 敏感性值。
        • 图中的星号表示该 ROI 的中位 TP 敏感性是否统计学上显著小于零(即该区域作为一个整体是否显示出显著的负 TP 敏感性,符合预测编码的模式)。结果显示除了 ACC 外,大多数 ROI 都显示出显著的负 TP 敏感性,表明广泛的脑区参与了 TP 编码。
      • (e) ROI 间 TP 敏感性的统计差异:
        • 一个矩阵图,显示了哪些 ROI 对之间的 TP 敏感性存在统计学上显著的差异。这有助于确定哪些脑区对 TP 的敏感程度相对更高或更低。例如,它可能显示海马体和腹侧前额叶与其他一些区域相比,TP 敏感性显著更高(更负)。

      总结这一部分:

      这一部分通过将大脑对每一个随机发生的异常音的反应强度(编码信息)与该异常音在序列中的实时预测性(动态 TP)关联起来,提供了强有力的证据表明,大脑在不注意的情况下会自动且持续地学习和编码听觉流中的转移概率。这种编码体现在大脑对低可预测性事件(低 TP)反应更强,符合预测编码理论。更重要的是,这种能力广泛分布在听觉皮层之外的脑区,特别是海马体和腹侧前额叶显示出最高的敏感性,揭示了这些区域在隐式统计学习和预测处理中的关键作用。

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Joint Public Review:

      Summary

      In this manuscript, Dong et al. study the directed cell migration of tracheal stem cells in Drosophila pupae. The authors study how the directionality of these cells is regulated along the dorsal trunk. They show that inter-organ communication between the tracheal stem cells and the nearby fat body plays a role in posterior migration. They provide compelling evidence that Upd2 production in the fat body and JAK/STAT activation in the tracheal stem cells play a role. Moreover, they show that JAK/STAT signalling might induce the expression of apicobasal and planar cell polarity genes in the tracheal stem cells which appear to be needed to ensure unidirectional migration. Finally, the authors suggest that trafficking and vesicular transport of Upd2 from the fat body towards the tracheal cells might be important.

      Strengths

      The manuscript is well written and presents extensive and varied experimental data to show a link between Upd2-JAK/STAT signaling from the fat body and tracheal progenitor cell migration. The authors provide convincing evidence that the fat body, located near the trachea, secretes vesicles containing the Upd2 cytokine and that affecting JAK-STAT signaling results in aberrant migration of some of the tracheal stem cells towards the anterior. Using ChIP-seq as well as analysis of GFP-protein trap lines of planar cell polarity genes in combination with RNAi experiments, the authors show that STAT92E likely regulates the transcription of planar cell polarity genes and some apicobasal cell polarity genes in tracheal stem cells which appear to be needed for unidirectional migration. The work presented here provides some novel insights into the mechanism that ensures polarized migration of tracheal stem cells, preventing bidirectional migration. This might have important implications for other types of directed cell migration in invertebrates or vertebrates including cancer cell migration. Overall, the authors have substantially improved their manuscript since the first submission but there are still some weaknesses.

      Weaknesses

      Overall, the manuscript lacks insights into the potential significance of the observed phenotypes and of the proposed new signaling model. Most of our concerns could be dealt with by adjusting the text (explaining some parts better and toning down some statements).

      (1) Directional migration of tracheal progenitors is only partially compromised, with some cells migrating anteriorly and others maintaining their posterior migration, a quite discrete phenotype.

      The strongest migration defects quantified in graphs (e.g. 100 μm) are not shown in images, since they would be out of frame, it would be beneficial to see them. In addition, the consequence of defects in polarized migration on tracheal development is not clear and data showing phenotypes on the final trachea morphology in pupae are not explained nor linked to the previous phenotypes.

      We agree with you that it is informative to show strong anterior migration (> 100 μm). Accordingly, we have shown examples in Figure 3B and Figure 7R-S. In addition, we have also discuss on the links between migration defects and the consequential phenotypes of the animal at a later developmental stage in the revised manuscript. The undisciplined migration leads to insufficient regeneration and incomplete remodeling of airway and causes pupal lethality.

      (2) Some important information is lacking, such as the origin of mutant and UAS-RNAi lines, which are not reported in the material and methods. For instance, mutants for components of the JAK-STAT pathway are used but not described. Are they all viable at the pupal stage? Otherwise, pupae would not be homozygous mutants. From the figure legend, it seems that the Stat92EF allele has been used, which is a point mutation, thus not leading to an absence of protein. If the hopTUM allele has been used, as mentioned in the legend, it is a gain-of-function allele. Thus, the authors should not conclude that "The aberrant anterior migration of tracheal progenitors in the absence of JAK/STAT components led to impairment of tracheal integrity and caused melanization in the trachea (Figure 3-figure supplement 1E-I)".

      We apologize for inadequate description of the experimental materials and methods. We have listed the stock number of mutant and RNAi alleles in Key resource table and Materials. The mutant alleles that we chose to examine can survive to pupal stage, which is key to the success of our subsequent characterization of these mutants. According to your suggestion, we modified the statement for accuracy.

      (3) The authors observe that tracheal progenitors display a polarized distribution of Fat that is controlled by JAK-STAT signaling. However, this conclusion is made from a single experiment using only 3 individuals with no statistics. This is insufficient to support the claim that "JAK/STAT signaling promotes the expression of genes involved in planar cell polarity leading to asymmetric localization of Fat in progenitor cells", as mentioned in the abstract, or that "the activated tracheal progenitors establish a disciplined migration through the asymmetrical distribution of polarity proteins which is directed by an Upd2-JAK/STAT signaling stemming from the remote organ of fat body."

      We performed multiple biological replicates for Ft distribution experiments and observed similar trend, although we only showed three representative samples. In the revised text, we have included n number for statistic representation and statistic test.

      (4) The authors demonstrate that Upd2 is transported through vesicles from the fat body to the tracheal progenitors. It remains somewhat unclear in the proposed model how Upd2 activates JAK-STAT signaling. Are vesicles internalized, as it seems to be proposed, and thus how does Upd2 activate JAK-STAT signaling intracellularly? Or is Upd2 released from vesicles to bind Dome extracellularly to activate the JAK-STAT pathway? Moreover, it is not clear nor discussed what would be the advantage of transporting the ligand in vesicles compared to classical ligand diffusion.

      We do not know whether the association between Upd2 and Lbm is inside or outside vesicles. The vesicular trafficking of Upd2 is our observation and supported by various genetic and biochemical experiments. Our research does not imply the message that this vesicular trafficking has advantage over diffusion.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript, Li and colleagues introduce a pioneering investigation into the molecular and epigenetic foundations of neuroendocrine transdifferentiation in prostate cancer. By employing a genetically engineered cellular reprogramming approach, they elucidate the pivotal roles of ASCL1 and NeuroD1 as pioneer transcription factors that suppress AR signaling and orchestrate lineage plasticity toward NEPC. Their integrative multi-omics methodology delineates dynamic transcriptional and chromatin reorganization processes, offering profound insights into mechanisms of therapeutic resistance.

      Strengths:

      (1) The development of a reproducible in vitro reprogramming platform to transition ARPC cells into NEPC represents a significant technical achievement. This model enables high-resolution temporal analysis of NEtD, addressing constraints inherent in traditional PDX systems.

      (2) The authors reveal that ASCL1 and NeuroD1 suppress AR signaling through chromatin structural modifications at somatically amplified AR enhancers, a significant discovery that clarifies the longstanding ambiguity surrounding AR pathway inactivation during lineage plasticity.

      (3) The integration of RNA sequencing, CUT&RUN, and single-cell multiomic profiling delivers a holistic perspective on dynamic epigenetic and transcriptional reprogramming during NEtD. Their observation that AR suppression precedes NE marker activation provides chronological insights into this process.

      (4) By delineating the distinct roles of ASCL1/NeuroD1-driven NE lineage programs versus REST inactivation, the study critiques the excessive dependence on limited immunohistochemical indicators for NEPC classification, directly informing improvements in molecular diagnostics.

      (5) The association of ASCL1/NeuroD1 with MHC class I suppression mediated by PRC2 unveils opportunities for combining agents targeting epigenetic modifiers with immune-based therapies to counteract immune evasion in NEPC.

      Weaknesses:

      While the study is methodologically robust, a modest limitation lies in its primary reliance on established cell lines for mechanistic exploration. Although key observations are corroborated with clinical samples, additional validation in PDX models or organoid systems could enhance translational applicability. Furthermore, while the role of ASCL1/NeuroD1 in AR enhancer silencing is convincingly demonstrated, the upstream regulatory mechanisms governing ASCL1/NeuroD1 induction under therapeutic stress remain unaddressed, a compelling avenue for future research.