2,032 Matching Annotations
  1. Nov 2013
    1. In this way Quintilian reveals himself to be quite ignorant of dialectic, for he has either not heard or not read anything about the role of judging, and about the many types of syllogisms, both simple and complex.

      This made me laugh simply because of the word "Judging" used here. Reading this, my thought was "he doesn't know how to judge, like I do. Watch me do it in a phrase where I use the word." I know he's not making a claim on judging people, but the usage makes me laugh all the same.

    2. he was completely silent about method; in a loud sophistic debate over quite useless rules he handed down to us nothing about the use of the art as a universal, but only as a particular.
    3. He thinks rhetoric is one of the liberal arts, not in fact a common art, and yet at the same time he deems rhetoric to be an art, a science, and a virtue

      Again, another broad definition of Art. It depends on how we feel the word describes the idea in question. Some people find art to be all encompassing of ideas, other "don't get it."

    4. that the arts of dialectic and rhetoric have been confused by Aristotle, Cicero, and Quintilian.

      Claim

    5. For although I admit that rhetoric is a virtue, it is virtue of the mind and the intelligence, as in all the true liberal arts, whose followers can still be men of the utmost moral depravity. Nor is rhetoric a moral virtue as Quintilian thinks, so that whoever possesses it is incapable )f being a wicked man.

      exercise of the mind.

    6. There are two universal, general gifts be-stowed by nature upon man, Reason and Speech; dialectic is the theory of the former, grammar and rhetoric of the latter.

      inherent to man: reason and speech.

    7. Quintilian decrees that there are five parts to the art of rhetoric - I shall talk about these afterwards - invention, arrangement, style, memory, and delivery. He thinks there are no more and no less.

      limiting?

    8. Is it because the orator ought to control the state and its citizens that moral training will therefore be a proper part of rhetoric?

      Roles?

    9. I assert indeed that such a definition of an orator seems to me to be useless and stupid: Why? Because a definition of any artist which covers more than is included in the rules of his art is superfluous and defective.

      I love this.

    10. ine are truthful and distinct, as both the art and its practice prove when they have been thoroughly investigated.

      Because he has studied it for so long, it make it truthful and distinct?

    11. Because the dialectical and rhetorical arts of Aristotle, Cicero, and Quintilian are fallacious and confused in their treatment of the dialectical and rhetorical usage of reason, and then of speech - -the usage, I repeat, which one observes in their books.

      Argument against. misuse of dialectic and rhetoric

    12. But the writings of these scholars reveal that while they indeed collected a lot of material, they did not evaluate it sufficiently, for in some places I look in vain for a syllogism.

      quantity over quality

    13. I wish I had not known the wretched-ness of wasting so much of my youth in this way. I wish that the scholars of rhetoric and dialectic would heed my advice and would sometimes think of the truth and usefulness of their subjects instead of tenaciously and obstinately quarreling over matters which they have naively accepted at a first hearing, without ever giving them proper consideration

      Regret. Ever achievable? Too quick to argue. Maybe difference between education and schooling?

    14. n this disputation, however, I shall, as far as I may, apply dialectic, the mentor of speaking with truth and constancy, in order that I may evaluate the subject with more incisiveness and wisdom.

      Why dialectic? I may still be sturggling to distinguish between rhetoric and dialectic

    15. For prudence is not a moral virtue but a virtue of the intelligence and mind. Therefore rhetoric will not be a moral virtue.

      So part of rhetoric is prudence? It seems that we've read some things from rhetoricians that weren't very prudent

    16. Rhetoric should demonstrate the embellishment of speech first in tropes and figures, second in dignified delivery

      Once again, we see someone trying to define rhetoric as purely the art of public speaking with the intent to persuade

    17. The grammarian is defined as skilled in speaking and writing cor-rectly; he is not defined as skilled in speaking, writing, and singing. Why not? Because gram-mar provides no precepts about the last. The geometrician is not defined as skilled in mea-surement and medicine. Why not? Because there is no precept in geometry which teaches how to cure illnesses.

      He makes a good point here. To be a good orator doesn't necessarily mean that one has those esteemed characteristics. A good orator and rhetorician could could posses unsavory characteristics. Ex: Hitler, Mussollini

    18. dialectic, the mentor of speaking with truth and constanc

      So is he claiming here that the disticntion between dialectic and rhetoric is that dialectic speaks "with truth and constancey", and rhetoric doesn't?

    19. Yet I add the observation that if they had applied as many months as I have years to judg-ing these precepts accurately and to arranging them in order, I certainly do not doubt that they would have left us arts that are far truer and more distinct.

      Did Aristotle, Cicero, and Quintillion not study their craft for years as well? Is Ramus assuming that he studied rhetoric for longer than them?

    20. I wish I had not known the wretched-ness of wasting so much of my youth in this way

      I'm sensing some bitterness here.

    21. unwavering reaso
    22. we shall sep-arate its true properties, remove weak and useless subtleties, and point out the things that are miss-ing

      are we about to get an actual definition of rhetoric?!

    23. my close colleague Audomarus Ta-laeus cast light on style and delivery and pointed out their deficiencie

      Is this a text that still exists today? It might be interesting...

    24. rather I feel ashamed to look back upon them due to the very meager results they produced

      Interesting, and kind of sad, that he considers his discipline and work as a waste of time.

    25. Next, Quintilian's greater weakness concerns effects. For he put these forward in the topics of persons, yet here once again he repeats them as if they were now different.
    26. "If signs are infallible," he says, "they are not arguments, because where they exist there is no room for question; even if they are doubtful, they are not arguments because they themselves need the support of arguments."

      Signs vs. arguments

    27. Thus Quin-tilian here concludes nothing, solves nothing, but confuses himself.

      I hate it when that happens!

    28. Here Quintilian says that the dialecti-cians lay claim to invention and judgment (which contains a large part of arrangement in the con-clusions of each argument and in syllogisms). And finally in the second chapter of the eleventh book he says that if memory belongs to any art, then it belongs completely to arrangement and order. Therefore he should say that the dialecticians could rightly claim this part also, because in dialectic that has been rightly described, one should teach the truest theory of order and ar-rangement according to the precepts of the syl-logism and method.
    29. What then, 0 Quintilian? is he who knows what is honest and just, himself honest and just?

      Knowledge verses action

    30. seperating the art of rhetoric from the individual.

    31. I propose to under-take against Quintilian, for I shall undertake to teach that his instructions on oratory were not correctly ordered, organized, described - es-pecially so since he seems to define an orator brilliantly at the start, then to divide elegantly the parts of the subjects covered by the definition and finally to delineate the property and nature of each part with extreme care and accuracy.
    32. Cicero seems to have spoken in an age of gold, Quin-tilian in an age of iron. But nevertheless, com-pared to the eloquent men of that time, he was without doubt counted among the eloquent.

      Cicero mastered eloquence but Quintilian was also eloquent.

    33. each man should practice the art which he knows.
    34. sine qua non

      something absolutely indispensable or essential <reliability is="" a="" sine="" qua="" non="" for="" success="">

    35. For I see that the scholars and teachers of this art have spent greater zeal in collecting the in-structions of the ancients and in thinking up new instructions than they have used judgment in dis-criminating among their own and others' discov-eries.

      I grow weary of the endless arguments, and basing clauses on the assertions of others, whether in agreement or disproof. I like the way Ramus has reframed the divisions and agree with his assessments. But, I'd rather read them outright, unhampered with by the age-old arguments and prostrations to bettering the last.

    36. The whole of dialectic concerns the mind and reason, whereas rhetoric and grammar concern language and speech.

      divisions of dialect and rhetoric

    37. Like any other discipline, the theory of invention and arrangement must be practiced in two ways: first, in order that by its means we should through external examples learn common sense from argument, judgment from the manner of conclusion, and complete prudence from the method of arrangement and order; secondly, that by means of the same art we should devise similar examples in speech and writing.

      Learn rhetoric through analyzing others and practicing what you've learned.

    38. confused dialectic itself with rhetoric, since in-vention, arrangement, and memory belong to di-alectic and only style and delivery to rhetoric.

      an interesting division

    39. The whole of the following sixth book is taken up with the arts for stirring the emotions and causing delight; here nothing is the property of dialectic or of rhetoric. Since rhetoric and di-alectic are general arts, they should therefore be explained in a general fashion, the one in respect to style and delivery, the other in respect to in-vention and arrangement.

      I disagree. The arts of "stirring the emotions" show how to produce this effect in style and delivery. In the end, good rhetoric should "stir the emotions," no matter what the subject or emotion.

    40. I shall not object to your opinion that moral virtue is undoubtedly useful and suitable for the use of all arts, but in no way shall I admit that any art is a moral virtue.

      shedding the art of implied moral and philosophical attributes

    41. In the third chapter rhetoric is separated into five parts: invention, arrangement, style, mem-ory, delivery. I am now not at all surprised that Quintilian is so bereft of dialectic in this division, for he was unable to recognize that here he h is confused dialectic itself with rhetoric, since in-vention, arrangement, and memory belong to di-alectic and only style and delivery to rhetoric. Indeed, Quintilian's reason for dividing rhetoric into these five parts derived from the same single source of error as did the causes of the previous confusion. The orator, says Quintilian, cannot be perfected without virtue, without grammar, with-out mathematics, and without philosophy. There-fore, one must define the nature of the orator from all these subjects. The grammarian, the same man says, cannot be complete without mu-sic, astrology, philosophy, rhetoric, and history. Consequently there are two parts of grammar, methodology and literary interpretation. As a re-sult Quintilian now finally reasons that rhetoric cannot exist unless the subject matter is first of all discovered, next arranged, then embellished ' and finally committed to memory and delivered. Thus these are the five parts of rhetoric.

      Grammar may be necessary to use in rhetoric and virtue may be an important part of a good orator, but rhetoric is not about grammar or virtue. Rhetoric is about style and delivery.

    42. panegyric

      a public speech or published text in praise of someone or something

    43. Nor is rhetoric a moral virtue as Quintilian thinks, so that whoever possesses it is incapable )f being a wicked man.

      mixing metaphors: moral virtue vs. craft. I craveth a brownie, therefore I am.

    44. If moral philosophy were a part of rhetoric, it would have to be expounded in some part f rhetoric.

      good point

    45. In use these should be united, so that the same oration can expound purely, speak ornately, and express thought wisely. However, the precepts of pure diction, ornate delivery, and intelligent treatment must be kept separate and should not be confused.

      surely, like learning to play the guitar: fingering on the keyboard, strum and pick, and annotation are studied as distinct practices, and combined together to produce the music.

    46. If these arts have been kept separate and enclosed within their own proper limits, then certainly what grammar will teach in its rightful province will not be confused with rhetoric, and dialectic will not encroach upon what each of the others has clearly described.

      an interesting approach and helpful, i think.

    47. This is what Quintilian says, and consequently when he wishes to give a name to a human being who is an ideal leader in the republic and is perfect in every virtue and branch of knowledge, he calls him an "orator" - as if to make him a god rather than just a man skilled in a single art.

      it does seem that Quintilian and some others, in arguing for rhetoric, attempt to lift it as an art or teaching practice to some higher, loftier platform, imbued with supernatural forces for goodness and the power of morality.

    48. and is consistent within itself.

      consistency

    49. In this disputation, however, I shall, as far as I may, apply dialectic, the mentor of speaking with truth and constancy, in order that I may evaluate the subject with more incisiveness and wisdom.

      admitting to use of rhetoric to discuss rhetoric

    50. At present I am not inquiring after the su-preme virtues of other kinds, such as those accorded the Apollos or the Jupiters.

      sticking to earthly functions? no lofty philosophical deluges? how refreshing!

    51. And is it necessary to think them not men, but gods in all things?

      An issue with perceptions of past masters in all fields of study.

    52. method

      Method vs. purpose Grammar vs. message

    53. wretchedly spent on false conjectures about these disciplines?

      Disagrees with purpose and analysis of rhetoric as given by the Greeks - I'm interested to see how he defines rhetoric

    54. This is the first, the mid-dle, and the final support of my argument. I do not make evil use of the testimonies of men who can lie, but I establish my argument by the truth-fulness of unwavering, natural usage, the usage, I repeat, which I have been following for so many years with the greatest effort through daily practice and by experience in the subject.

      the heart of the matter

    55. Yet I add the observation that if they had applied as many months as I have years to judg-ing these precepts accurately and to arranging them in order, I certainly do not doubt that they would have left us arts that are far truer and more distinct.

      an astute observation, in consideration of the advantages of time and distance allowing objective critique.

    56. I am discuss-ing now the precepts of dialectic and rhetoric, which I admit were almost all in fact either first discovered by those men, to the great glory of their names, or certainly were collected from others.

      "discovered", or "observed" by them?

    57. However, must those who excel in one or many virtues necessarily excel in them all? And is it necessary to think them not men, but gods in all things?

      No. And I saw this attempt to have answers for the entire body of issues concerning rhetoric as a failing of many. Tedious attempts to define and redefine to the smallest detail the entire subject as though competing throughout time for authoritative license, like some rhetorical pissing contest.

    58. In fact I shall not only gladly but also perhaps truly admit that of all the men who are, have been, and will in the future be, he was the most eloquent.

      regarding Cicero: Yep, me too.

    59. Therefore let us allow Aristotle as sharp an intelligence in various subjects and branches of knowledge as any Aristotelian could imagine, for I admit that that philosopher had an amazing fecundity of talent.

      agreed. I love some of Aristotle's other works, but did not so much appreciate his lengthy assertions on rhetoric.

    60. As a result, if the arts were taught with greater conciseness they would certainly be more easily understood, and once the true method for their use was revealed, they would be more easy to practice.

      He has a point. Even just getting away from the tired argument over the right vs. evil applications of rhetoric, as so far he has done, lets some room to breath around the subject

    61. By means of a confined, organized, and illustrated classification of subjects, my close colleague Audomarus Ta-laeus cast light on style and delivery and pointed out their deficiencies. To this extent therefore we have here expelled the darkness.

      let there be light!

    62. ten general topics - -causes, effects, subjects, adjuncts, opposites, comparisons, names, divisions, definitions, wit-nesses

      ten general topics addressed by Aristotle

    63. single argument

      oh sure - we've heard that before!

    64. Maecenas

      a generous patron especially of literature or art

    65. What objection then is there against calling Quintilian to the same account?

      none by me, do continue...

    66. I con-sider the subject matters of the arts to be distinct and separate.

      I can see some indie hipster going on about this is what makes art so great is we discuss what makes art art. And this is a good question, and I find the answers we get don't tell us what art is but how the speaker interprets art. HashTagDeep

    67. For all that, Quintilian continues and main-tains his own opinion that since dialectic is a virtue, so therefore is rhetoric. Quintilian should turn the whole thing around and should more correctly conclude that since dialectic is not a moral virtue which can shape a good man, so neither is rhetoric.

      Dictating opinion? Hmmm, okay. By definition, opinion is grounded in personal anecdote and perception. This follows the same kind of logic. "He says that X = Y and therefore so does Z. But no! X=Y so W=Z." This is the overall issue with syllogisms: making inferences. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

    68. -and that no one can be an orator unless he is a good man (this is in the first chapter of the twelfth book) and for this reason, I believe, he will conclude that instruction in virtue is a part of rhetoric.

      Jerks need not apply. I like how the lines of good and evil are a constant theme in rhetoric. It has such a bad connotation, and these ideas perpetuate it. Anyone of any sort can use rhetoric in anyway they want.

    69. There are two universal, general gifts be-stowed by nature upon man, Reason and Speech; dialectic is the theory of the former, grammar and rhetoric of the latte

      Language is probably the greatest tool human kind has. Reasoning exists in many animals, but extensive communication networks and language is ours! Also, poor use of the word "Universal" here. If it was a universal gift, it would be for everyone and not just man.

    70. Therefore there are only two parts of rhetoric, style and delivery.

      For Ramus, style & delivery = rhetoric.

    71. Since rhetoric and di-alectic are general arts, they should therefore be explained in a general fashion, the one in respect to style and delivery, the other in respect to in-vention and arrangement.

      Rhetoric = style & delivery, dialectic = invention & arrangement. Is memory eliminated?

    72. invention is a process which supplies arguments, whereas arrangement is a different process which organizes arguments.

      The definitions of invention and arrangement.

    73. dialectic, that is to the natural use of reason

      The definition of dialectic.

    74. From the development of language and speech only two proper parts will be left for rhetoric, style, and delivery; rhetoric will possess nothing proper and of its own beyond these.
    75. The whole of dialectic concerns the mind and reason, whereas rhetoric and grammar concern language and speech. Therefore dialectic comprises, as proper to it, the arts of invention, arrangement, and memory

      Dialectic = logic = invention, arrangement, and memory, rhetoric = lang/speech = style and delivery.

    76. I have decided not to use up the greater part of my discourse against these by teaching that they are stupid and false

      Good Lord, this guy is arrogant!

    77. Yet at this point Quintilian has proposed that he should give instructions about one certain art and virtue, not about perfection in every art and vir-tue. He thinks rhetoric is one of the liberal arts, not in fact a common art, and yet at the same time he deems rhetoric to be an art, a science, and a virtue.

      Quintilian's definition: too far reaching.

    78. Quintilian decrees that there are five parts to the art of rhetoric - I shall talk about these afterwards - invention, arrangement, style, memory, and delivery.

      Quintilian's five parts of rhetoric.

    79. There are two universal, general gifts be-stowed by nature upon man, Reason and Speech; dialectic is the theory of the former, grammar and rhetoric of the latter.

      For Ramus, logic comes first.

    80. Because a definition of any artist which covers more than is included in the rules of his art is superfluous and defective. For the artist must be defined according to the rules of his art, so that only as much of the art as the true, proper principles cover - this much is attributed to the artist, and nothing further.

      Interesting point.

    81. And so, all you dialecticians - that is, whoever can form a judgment about this question with truth and constancy - come here, pay at-tention, sharpen your wits, drive far away from you (in case passions of this kind have been ready to seize your minds), drive far away, I say, love, hate, prejudice, levity, fickleness, and rashness

      Denouncing pathos, embracing logos

    82. Mine are truthful and distinct, as both the art and its practice prove when they have been thoroughly investigated. This is the first, the mid-dle, and the final support of my argument. I do not make evil use of the testimonies of men who can lie, but I establish my argument by the truth-fulness of unwavering, natural usage, the usage, I repeat, which I have been following for so many years with the greatest effort through daily practice and by experience in the subject.

      Ramus' point.

    83. I do not make evil use of the testimonies of men who can lie, but I establish my argument by the truth-fulness of unwavering, natural usage, the usage, I repeat, which I have been following for so many years with the greatest effort through daily practice and by experience in the subject.

      He is the authority on this subject because of the duration he has spent studying it.

    84. But the writings of these scholars reveal that while they indeed collected a lot of material, they did not evaluate it sufficiently, for in some places I look in vain for a syllogism. And they did not arrange it in a sufficiently fitting order, for else-where I find a lack of method. I confidently state that I have truly judged and correctly organized this same material in my teachings.

      The difference between Ramus and others.

    85. Yet I add the observation that if they had applied as many months as I have years to judg-ing these precepts accurately and to arranging them in order, I certainly do not doubt that they would have left us arts that are far truer and more distinct.

      A few things going on here: qualifying himself while being charitable to those who made err in their remarks about rhetoric and dialectic.

    86. Such then were the qualities of Aristo-tle, Cicero, and Quintilian, and such was their stature.

      Aristotle: brilliant in many deductions. Cicero: the most eloquent. Quintilian: yeah, he was pretty good, but not nearly as eloquent as Cicero.

    87. we shall rely on the supreme help of unwavering reason in our attempt to establish the true description and practice of the arts

      Implying that his reason is superior to the others (aristotle, cicero, quintilian) who have attempted to define this art. Bold claim.

    88. The whole of the following sixth book is taken up with the arts for stirring the emotions and causing delight; here nothing is the property of dialectic or of rhetoric.

      Really? What art would they belong to then? And why is emotion and pathos such a huge part of speaking or writing?

    89. for he does not see that this "hypothesis" is the proposition of a connected syllogism

      Even though hypothesis is used in a different sense here, it still is interesting to think of it in a scientific sense, and many similarities apply

    90. "Therefore all artistic proof," says Quintilian, "consists either of signs, arguments, or exam-ples" - as if examples and signs were not arguments!

      Interesting idea

    91. First, since there are countless questions about those subjects and arts which use the evi-dence of scholars and learned men although they do not come into the forum, in what way can they be called inartistic? Again, how can we call something inartistic which is taught by the pre-cepts of art

      He has a point. There is a lot of crafting and art that goes into witnesses, documents, etc.

    92. Our instructor teaches that all the things which one can say about anything are either causes, effects, subjects, adjuncts, opposites, compari-sons, names, divisions, definitions, or witnesses, and he carefully explains these thing

      All deals with relationships to each other

    93. But indeed I shall instead agree with Quinti-lian's opinion that rhetoric is defined as the sci-ence of speaking well, not about this or that, but about all subjects. Rhetoric therefore requires no partition of its areas of investigation

      What, he agrees on something? Rhetoric covers all subject matter

    94. I say first of all that this partition is false, since there are countless questions which are not contained in any part of these classes.

      Though he is annoying and harsh, I agree that these three categories are too limiting

    95. there is one faculty of judgment which the syllogism alone executes and accomplishes

      Is this true? It seems very limiting. Haven't we seen other ways of judging and reasoning?

    96. Therefore dialectic comprises, as proper to it, the arts of invention, arrangement, and memory

      you can see his bias toward dialectic

    97. For although I admit that rhetoric is a virtue, it is virtue of the mind and the intelligence, as in all the true liberal arts, whose followers can still be men of the utmost moral depravity. Nor is rhetoric a moral virtue as Quintilian thinks, so that whoever possesses it is incapable )f being a wicked man

      This sounds more realiistic

    98. The parts of the material which belong to the art of rhetoric are only two, style and delivery

      Again this seems limiting

    99. Rhetoric should demonstrate the embellishment of speech first in tropes and figures, second in dignified delivery

      Divides it into separate categories, makes rhetoric very specific and almost trivial

    100. Because a definition of any artist which covers more than is included in the rules of his art is superfluous and defective

      It's true that many of the definitions we have read seem to cover so much area that they in fact say nothing at all

    101. "I teach," he says, "that the orator cannot be perfect unless he is a good man. Con-sequently I demand from him not only outstand-ing skill in speaking but all the virtuous qualities of character." This is the type of orator that Quin-tilian constructs for us. Afterwards in the twelfth book, where he defines him in similar terms as a good man skilled in speaking well, he identifies those virtuous qualities of character as justice, courage, self-control, prudence, likewise knowl-edge of the whole of philosophy and of law, a thorough acquaintance with history, and many other attributes worthy of praise.
    102. Cicero seems to have spoken in an age of gold, Quin-tilian in an age of iron

      Beautiful metaphor

    103. If you wish, attribute to Cicero these equal ornaments of dialectic, invention, and arrangement

      Concessions

    104. As a result, if the arts were taught with greater conciseness they would certainly be more easily understood, and once the true method for their use was revealed, they would be more easy to practice

      Critical thinking and questioning doesn't complicate things but is supposed to simplify

    105. We shall distinguish the art of rhetoric from the other arts, and make it a single one of the liberal arts, not a confused mixture of all art

      Interesting idea. But it still gets mixed in and influences so many areas. It's harder to qualify and contain than that

    106. We have added to the art the virtues it lacked

      Which are? He seems excessively harsh but doesn't give much in return

    107. I admit that that philosopher had an amazing fecundity of talent

      Honesty or trying to build up the opponent to make the deconstruction more impressive? You decide.

    108. supreme help

      Ramus is full of emotionally heavy words. Really tried to play on the impact of the words to persuade us.

    109. he created unfathomable darkness

      This sounds so dark and horrible. Overstatement is an understatement

    110. Most excellent Maecenas

      Introduction by Bill and Ted

    111. Because a definition of any artist which covers more than is included in the rules of his art is superfluous and defective.

      Nothing to excess?

    1. But we are not to suppose that it is against rule to mingle these various styles: taste. For when we keep monotonously to one style, we fail to retain the hearer's attention; but when we pass from one style to another, the discourse goes off more gracefully, even though it extend to greater length.
    2. THIS WORK NOT INTENDED AS A TREATISE ON RHETORIC.

      Well, Casey Boyle seems to disagree.

    3. APOLOGY FOR THE LENGTH OF THE WORK.

      Not accepted. Asshole.

    4. TRUTH IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EXPRESSION.WHAT IS MEANT BY STRIFEABOUT WORDS.

      Aren't we repeating ourselves here?

    5. THE CHRISTIAN TEACHER MUST USE DIFFERENT STYLES ON DIFFERENT OCCASIONS.

      Rhetoric 101: Matching your style to your situation.

    6. THE SACRED WRITERS UNITE ELOQUENCE WITH WISDOM.

      ...but best to be both.

    7. WISDOM OF MORE IMPORTANCE THAN ELOQUENCE TO THE CHRIST!AN TEACHER

      By extension one could argue that it is more important to be right than it is to be persuasive.

    8. T IS LAWFUL FOR A CHRISTIAN TEACHER TO USE THE ART OF RHETORIC

      Oh excellent. More fodder for the morality of rhetoric debate.

  2. Oct 2013
    1. but he must also sway the mind so as to subdue the will.

      This makes me think of wrestling. A head lock by eloquence.

    2. For if a man be not moved by the force of truth

      Truth is perception. Cognitively, we perceive opinions and subjective ideas of truth.

    3. It is sufficiently clear, I think, that this eloquence calls passionately upon women to avoid tampering with their appearance by deceitful arts, and to cultivate modesty and fear.

      I find this interesting that he chose this passage because earlier Saint Augustine explained that using appealing rhetoric was necessary to get ones point across. Could this not be true of women to?

    4. Only two conditions are to be insisted upon, that our hearer or companion should have an earnest desire to learn the truth, and should have capacity of mind to receive it in whatever form it may be communicated

      This is a good change between meeting your audience at their level from earlier philosophers and now you gotta make sure they are up to your level.

    5. capacity

      How might the speaker know the what extent the audience can understand his words? Is the information itself, after a certain point, impossible for some to understand, or is it the method of presentation?

    6. but in making clear what was obscure

      As an aspiring professor myself, I really like this idea.

    7. LL

      I love how this writing "isn't about Rhetoric" and now we are not just being told about the art of it, but how to acquire it. Smooth.

    8. duty

      Use of rhetoric as duty

    9. unarmed against falsehood

      Is the logic of truth not enough to defend against false?

    10. And thus they cease to listen with submission to a man who does not listen to himself, and in despising the preacher they learn to despise the word that is preached.

      discrediting the content by association

    11. THE MAN WHOSE LIFE IS IN HARMONY WITH HIS TEACHING WILL TEACH WITH GREATER EFFECT.

      adhering to personal truth and personal experience, authorship, is more persuasive. Walking your talk, and talking your walk

    12. On the other hand, without perspicuity this style cannot give pleasure. And so the three qualities, perspicuity, beauty, and persuasiveness. are to be sought in this style also; beauty, of course, being its primary object.

      an argument for "beauty" as apposed to other arguments, such as, for truth or "good"

    13. And therefore we must be on our guard, lest, in striving to carry to a higher point the emotion we have excited, we rather lose what we have already gained.

      being alert and responsive to the mood of the listener, and knowing how to adjust effectively requires "presence" and practice

    14. But after the interposition of matter that we have to treat in a quieter style, we can return with good effect to that which must be treated forcibly, thus making the tide of eloquence to ebb and flow like the sea.

      Giving the mind of the listener ways to shift, rest, breath, and alternate between different types of listening focuses makes it easier for the audience to remain engaged and listen attentively.

    15. We can bear the subdued style, however, longer without variety than the majestic style. For the mental emotion which it is necessary to stir up in order to carry the hearer's feelings with us, when once it has been sufficiently excited, the higher the pitch to which it is raised, can be maintained the shorter time.

      taking care recognize the limits of endurance and available energy of the listener

    16. But we are not to suppose that it is against rule to mingle these various styles: taste. For when we keep monotonously to one style, we fail to retain the hearer's attention; but when we pass from one style to another, the discourse goes off more gracefully, even though it extend to greater length.

      paying heed to the limits of attention of an audience

    17. as infants cannot learn to speak except by learning words and phrases from those who do speak

      Read some Chompsky. Language is an internal process. The Language Instinct from Pinker is good, too.

    18. or what does it profit a man that he both confesses the truth and praises the eloquence, if he does not yield his consent, when it is only for the sake of securing his consent that the speaker in urging the truth gives careful attention to what he says? If the truths taught are such that to believe or to know them is enough, to give one's assent implies nothing more than to confess that they are true. When, however, the truth taught is one that must be carried into practice, and that is taught for the very purpose of being practised, it is useless to be persuaded of the truth of what is said, it is useless to be pleased with the manner in which it is said, if it be not so learnt as to be practised.

      relationship between "hearer" and "speaker"

    19. For when he says, "Though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge, (2) he seems to speak as if granting so much to his detractors, not as confessing that he recognized its truth. If he had said, "I am indeed rude in speech, but not in knowledge," we could not in any way have put another meaning upon it. He did not hesitate plainly to assert his knowledge, because without it he could not have been the teacher of the Gentiles. And certainly if we bring forward anything of his as a model of eloquence, we take it from those epistles which even his very detractors, who thought his bodily presence weak and his speech contemptible, confessed to be weighty and powerful

      Is speech an extension of knowledge? Can they be different?

    20. Who is such a fool as to think this wisdom?

      There is something to be said about taking the opposite side. In the sciences, there is an idea of falsifiablility. To make ones argument or studies better, they take the side of the other idea and try to prove it true instead. I don't think that's what's he's going for, but to discount taking up an idea that we disagree with/believe is false is advanced skepticism/devil's advocate

    21. For it is because they are eloquent that they exemplify these rules; it is not that they use them in order to be eloquent.

      eloquence is the quality one must have to be skilled? Is it then a quality one is born with?

    22. THIS WORK NOT INTENDED AS A TREATISE ON RHETORIC

      This class is a lie! However, it seems that we could now break down any type of writing as rhetoric. Even throwing this phrase does not negate the nature of the writing.

    23. I need not go over all the other things that can be done by powerful eloquence to move the minds of the hearers, not telling them what they ought to do, but urging them to do what they already know ought to be done.
    24. But as there is a certain analogy between learning and eating, the very food without which it is impossible to live must be flavored to meet the tastes of the majority.

      This is so true.

    25. the rules which are laid down in the art of oratory could not have been observed, and noted, and reduced to system, if they had not first had their birth in the genius of orators

      Early study of a language needed.

    26. wisdom not aiming at eloquence, yet eloquence not shrinking from wisdom
    27. For there are who read and yet neglect them; they read to remember the words, but are careless about knowing the meaning. It is plain we must set far above these the men who are not so retentive of the words, but see with the eyes of the heart into the heart of Scripture. Better than either of these, however, is the man who, when he wishes, can repeat the words, and at the same time correctly apprehends their meaning.

      Semantics/paradigmatics needed.

    28. the hearers require to be roused rather than instructed, in order that they may be diligent to do what they already know, and to bring their feelings into harmony with the truths they admit, greater vigor of speech is needed.

      Pathos utilized and advanced.

    29. For it is because they are eloquent that they exemplify these rules; it is not that they use them in order to be eloquent.

      Early education needed?

    30. For even the art of grammar, which teaches correctness of speech, need not be learnt by boys, if they have the advantage of growing up and living among men who speak correctly.

      Early education maybe good but not necessarily.

    31. For men of quick intellect and glowing temperament find it easier to become eloquent by reading and listening to eloquent speakers than by following rules for eloquence.

      Similar to what Quintilian said.

    32. There are, indeed, some men who have a good delivery, but cannot compose anything to deliver. Now, if such men take what has been written with wisdom and eloquence by others, and commit it to memory, and deliver it to the people, they cannot be blamed, supposing them to do it without deception

      Composers vs. orators

    33. And assuredly it is preferable, even though what is said should be less intelligible, less pleasing, and less persuasive, that truth be spoken, and that what is just, not what is iniquitous, be listened to with pleasure.
    34. Accordingly a great orator has truly said that "an eloquent man must speak so as to teach, to delight, and to persuade." Then he adds: "To teach is a necessity, to delight is a beauty, to persuade is a triumph."(2) Now of these three, the one first mentioned, the teaching, which is a matter of necessity, depends on what we say; the other two on the way we say it.

      What is said vs. how it is said

    35. 24. Now a strong desire for clearness sometimes leads to neglect of the more polished forms of speech, and indifference about what sounds well, compared with what dearly expresses and conveys the meaning intended.

      Meaning is more important than presentation

    36. These three clauses are best pronounced when the voice is suspended on the first two members of the period, and comes to a pause on the third.
    37. So that it is at the discretion of the speaker whether he finish each clause separately and make six altogether, or whether he suspend his voice at the first, the third, and the fifth, and by joining the second to the first, the fourth to the third, and the sixth to the fifth, make three most elegant periods of two members each: one describing the imminent catastrophe; another, the lascivious couch; and the third, the luxurious table.
    38. These six clauses form three periods of two members each.
    39. see, then, that I must say something about the eloquence of the prophets also, where many things are concealed under a metaphorical style, which the more completely they seem buried under figures of speech, give the greater pleasure when brought to light. In this place, however, it is my duty to select a passage of such a kind that I shall not be compelled to explain the matter, but only to commend the style.
    40. the educated man observes that those sections which the Greeks call kommata, and the clauses and periods of which I spoke a short time ago,

      Is he referring to syntax?

    41. And in those passages where the learned do note its presence, the matters spoken of are such, that the words in which they are put seem not so much to be sought out by the speaker as spontaneously to suggest themselves; as if wisdom were walking out of its house,--that is, the breast of the wise man, and eloquence, like an inseparable attendant, followed it without being called for. (2)
    42. nothing can be called eloquence if it be not suitable to the person of the speaker,
    43. ut what is better than wholesome sweetness or sweet wholesomeness? For the sweeter we try to make such things, the easier it is to make their wholesomeness serviceable. And so there are writers of the Church who have expounded the Holy Scriptures, not only with wisdom, but with eloquence as well; and there is not more time for the reading of these than is sufficient for those who are studious and at leisure to exhaust them.

      rhetoric can be educational and enjoyable

    44. both to teach what is right and to refute what is wrong, and in the performance of this task to conciliate the hostile, to rouse the careless, and to tell the ignorant both what is occurring at present and what is probable in the future. But once that his hearers are friendly, attentive, and ready to learn, whether he has found them so, or has himself made them so the remaining objects are to be carried out in whatever way the case requires. If the hearers need teaching, the matter treated of must be made fully known by means of narrative. On the other hand, to clear up points that are doubtful requires reasoning and the exhibition of proof. If, however, the hearers require to be roused rather than instructed, in order that they may be diligent to do what they already know, and to bring their feelings into harmony with the truths they admit, greater vigor of speech is needed. Here entreaties and reproaches, exhortations and upbraidings, and all the other means of rousing the emotions, are necessary.

      The orator must be able to read the audience and adjust rhetoric accordingly

    45. For without knowing the names of any of the faults, they will, from being accustomed to correct speech, lay hold upon whatever is faulty in the speech of any one they listen to, and avoid it; just as city-bred men, even when illiterate, seize upon the faults of rustics.

      hear no evil see no evil

    46. But only by those who can learn them any one who cannot learn this art quickly can never thoroughly learn it

      Natural talent?

    47. THE PROPER AGE AND THE PROPER MEANS FOR ACQUIRING RHETORICAL SKILL.

      How will this compare to Quintilian?

    48. What is the difference between searching out the proper meaning and the known meaning?

    49. THE CHRISTIAN TEACHER MUST USE DIFFERENT STYLES ON DIFFERENT OCCASIONS
    50. For teaching, of course, true eloquence consists, not in making people like what they disliked, nor in making them do what they shrank from, but in making clear what was obscure

      Clarity vs. Persuasion. Haven't really come across this yet.

    51. For the more he discerns the poverty of his own speech, the more he ought to draw on the riches of Scripture, so that what he says in his own words he may prove by the words of Scripture; and he himself, though small and weak in his own words, may gain strength and power from the confirming testimony of great men.

      The power of scripture? Do the holy texts not also qualify as rhetoric? Therefore, the power he refers to is really just the power of rhetoric.

    52. Better than either of these, however, is the man who, when he wishes, can repeat the words, and at the same time correctly apprehends their meaning.

      This line is comparable to Quintilian's high regard for improvisation. Augustine seems to go along the same lines arguing that better than just memory is memory with understanding. And best of all is being able to employ all of that whenever one wishes (improvisation).

    53. If, however, the hearers require to be roused rather than instructed, in order that they may be diligent to do what they already know, and to bring their feelings into harmony with the truths they admit, greater vigor of speech is needed. Here entreaties and reproaches, exhortations and upbraidings, and all the other means of rousing the emotions, are necessary.
    54. THE PROPER MEANS FOR ACQUIRING RHETORICAL SKILL

      Rhetorical skill is obtained not by learning and following rules, but rather by imitating eloquent speakers.

    55. Now, the art of rhetoric being available for the enforcing either of truth or falsehood, who will dare to say that truth in the person of its defenders is to take its stand unarmed against falsehood? For example, that those who are trying to persuade men of what is false are to know how to introduce their subject, so as to put the hearer into a friendly, or attentive, or teachable frame of mind, while the defenders of the truth shall be ignorant of that art? That the former are to tell their falsehoods briefly, clearly, and plausibly, while the latter shall tell the truth m such a way that it is tedious to listen to, hard to understand, and, in fine, not easy to believe it? That the former are to oppose the to melt, to enliven, and to rouse them, while the latter shall in defence of the truth be sluggish, and frigid, and somnolent? Who is such a fool as to think this wisdom? Since, then, the faculty of eloquence is available for both sides, and is of very great service in the enforcing either of wrong or right, why do not good men study to engage it on the side of truth, when bad men use it to obtain the triumph of wicked and worthless causes, and to further injustice and error?

      Since it can be used for good and evil "equally", Augustine suggests it should be used as a counter to the evil use of rhetoric; fight fire with fire so to speak.

    56. I do not think it of so much importance as to wish men who have arrived at mature age to spend time in learning it. It is enough that boys should give attention to it; and even of these, not all who are to be fitted for usefulness in the Church, but only those who are not yet engaged in any occupation of more urgent necessity, or which ought evidently to take precedence of it.

      Rhetoric is helpful, but to Saint Augustine, not as important as "knowledge."

    57. who will dare to say that truth in the person of its defenders is to take its stand unarmed against falsehood?

      For one that does not intend to give a treatise on rhetoric, he sure gives a very strong point as to why rhetoric is important.

    58. THIS WORK NOT INTENDED AS A TREATISE ON RHETORIC.

      Ironic, since that's how we're using it.

    59. Indeed, I think there are scarcely any who can do both things--that is, speak well, and; in order to do this, think of the rules of speaking while they are speaking.

      Is that not the point? That it takes skill to learn to do both things at once? So rhetorical strategy should not be used because few can speak well and remember strategy?

    60. everything that we say is important;

      This is what makes rhetorical strategy so important. Everything said makes an impact, knowing how to peak well is vital to getting across what you want to.

    61. though there is no one who does not praise Him in some measure

      Really?

    62. It was necessary, however, to reply to the ill-taught men who think our authors contemptible; not because they do not possess, but because they do not display, the eloquence which these men value so highly.

      that they don't intentionally flaunt knowledge of, but display aptitude for speech, they are ridiculed and discredited by critics that hold to staunch precepts on rules of speech

    63. But wisdom is his guide, eloquence his attendant; he follows the first, the second follows him, and yet he does not spurn it when it comes after him.

      eloquence is inherent to wisdom?

    64. As then I do not affirm that the apostle was guided by the rules of eloquence, so I do not deny that his wisdom naturally produced, and was accompanied by, eloquence.

      making the case that eloquence is a talent that can be naturally aquired

    65. For there are who read and yet neglect them; they read to remember the words, but are careless about knowing the meaning. It is plain we must set far above these the men who are not so retentive of the words, but see with the eyes of the heart into the heart of Scripture. Better than either of these, however, is the man who, when he wishes, can repeat the words, and at the same time correctly apprehends their meaning.

      Parts: comprehension, retention, and ability to convey truth and meaning; deep insight and truth seeking study, with or without need of training in speech.

    66. Indeed, I think there are scarcely any who can do both things--that is, speak well, and; in order to do this, think of the rules of speaking while they are speaking.

      where the rules of speech may confuse and interfere with a persons natural ability to speak well from listening well

    67. But as some men employ these coarsely, inelegantly, and frigidly, while others use them with acuteness, elegance, and spirit, the work that I am speaking of ought to be undertaken by one who can argue and speak with wisdom, if not with eloquence, and with profit to his hearers, even though he profit them less than he would if he could speak with eloquence too.

      truth before eloquence

    68. For even the art of grammar, which teaches correctness of speech, need not be learnt by boys, if they have the advantage of growing up and living among men who speak correctly.

      clearly, he disagrees with the practice of "teaching" rhetoric and feels it is something more easily acquired through reading and listening to eloquent speech and written prose

    69. And even outside the canon, which to our great advantage is fixed in a place of secure authority, there is no want of ecclesiastical writings, in reading which a man of ability will acquire a tinge of the eloquence with which they are written, even though he does not aim at this, but is solely intent on the matters treated of; especially, of course, if in addition he practise himself in writing, or dictating, and at last also in speaking, the opinions he has formed on grounds of piety them, and who speak with fluency and elegance, cannot always think of them when they are speaking so as to speak in accordance with them, unless they are discussing the rules themselves

      I find him hard to read, made more difficult by the way the text stretches all the way across the page in this particular format. Plus, without context for his argument, I have no idea what he is going on about, or to what purpose.

    70. For men of quick intellect and glowing temperament find it easier to become eloquent by reading and listening to eloquent speakers than by following rules for eloquence.

      better learnt through exposure, than taught by route

    71. Who is such a fool as to think this wisdom? Since, then, the faculty of eloquence is available for both sides, and is of very great service in the enforcing either of wrong or right, why do not good men study to engage it on the side of truth, when bad men use it to obtain the triumph of wicked and worthless causes, and to further injustice and error?

      making a case for rhetoric to be put to good uses, defending against notions that the art of rhetoric is only a tool of dishonest discourse?

    72. Not that I think such rules of no use, but that whatever use they have is to be learnt elsewhere; and if any good man should happen to have leisure for learning them, he is not to ask me to teach them either in this work or any other.

      His concern is with the use of rhetoric rather than the teaching of it

    73. let his manner of living be an eloquent sermon in itself

      Can actions be considered a type of rhetoric?

    74. But the man who cannot speak both eloquently and wisely should speak wisely without eloquence, rather than eloquently without wisdom

      seems a synopsis of most of this chapter

    75. THE MAN WHOSE LIFE IS IN HARMONY WITH HIS TEACHING WILL TEACH WITH GREATER EFFECT.
    76. For as the function of all eloquence, whichever of these three forms it may assume, is to speak persuasively, and its object is to persuade, an eloquent man will speak persuasively, whatever style he may adopt;

      Link of eloquence and persuasion--seems a little contradictory to earlier statements

    77. And the speaker has it in his discretion to use the subdued style even where the majestic would be allowable, in order that the majestic when it is used may be the more majestic by comparison, and may as it were shine out with greater brilliance from the dark background

      This is a little tangential, but it like our use of exclamation points today. They are so overused they have no meaning or emphasis anymore

    78. But after the interposition of matter that we have to treat in a quieter style, we can return with good effect to that which must be treated forcibly, thus making the tide of eloquence to ebb and flow like the sea

      This is a beautiful metaphor which carries over well to the musicality of the voice

    79. When, however, something is to be done, and we are speaking to those who ought, but are not willing, to do it, then great matters must be spoken of with power, and in a manner calculated to sway the mind.

      The word calculated carries overtones of manipulation without emotion or concern

    80. even though he do not carry with him the assent of his hearer

      Eloquence is separate from persuasion and not affected by it

    81. either to teach, or to give pleasure, or to move, and should pray and strive, as we have said above, to be heard with intelligence, with pleasure, and with ready compliance· And when he does this with elegance and propriety, he may justly be called eloquent