"... I am willing to believe that history is for the most part inaccurate and biased, but what is peculair to our own age is the abandonment of the idea that history could be truthfully written."—George Orwell

check source and verify text <br /> (8:42)

reply to u/atomicnotes at https://www.reddit.com/r/Zettelkasten/comments/16njtfx/comment/k1tuc9c/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

u/atomicnotes, this is an excellent question. (Though I'd still like to come to terms with people who don't think it acts as a knowledge management system, there's obviously something I'm missing.)

Some of your distinction comes down to how one is using their zettelkasten and what sorts of questions are being asked of it. One of the earliest descriptions I've seen that begins to get at the difference is the description by Beatrice Webb of her notes (appendix C) in My Apprenticeship. As she describes what she's doing, I get the feeling that she's taking the same broad sort of notes we're all used to, but it's obvious from her discussion that she's also using her slips as a traditional database, but is lacking modern vocabulary to describe it as such.

Early efforts like the OED, TLL, the Wb, and even Gertrud Bauer's Coptic linguistic zettelkasten of the late 1970s were narrow enough in scope and data collected to make them almost dead simple to define, organize and use as databases on paper. Of course how they were used to compile their ultimate reference books was a bit more complex in form than the basic data from which they stemmed.

The Mundaneum had a much more complex flavor because it required a standardized system for everyone to work in concert against much more freeform as well as more complex forms of collected data and still be able to search for the answers to specific questions. While still somewhat database flavored, it was dramatically different from the others because of it scope and the much broader sorts of questions one could ask of it. I think that if you ask yourself what sorts of affordances you get from the two different groups (databases and word processors (or even their typewriter precursors) you find even more answers.

Typewriters and word processors allowed one to get words down on paper quicker by a magnitude of order or two faster, and in combination with reproduction equipment, made it easier to spin off copies of the document for small scale and local mass distribution a lot easier. They do allow a few affordances like higher readability (compared with less standardized and slower handwriting), quick search (at least in the digital era), and moving pieces of text around (also in digital). Much beyond this, they aren't tremendously helpful as a composition tool. As a thinking tool, typewriters and word processors aren't significantly better than their analog predecessors, so you don't gain a huge amount of leverage by using them.

On the other hand, databases and their spreadsheet brethren offer a lot more, particularly in digital realms. Data collection and collation become much easier. One can also form a massive variety of queries on such collected data, not to mention making calculations on those data or subjecting them to statistical analyses. Searching, sorting, and making direct comparisons also become far easier and quicker to do once you've amassed the data you need. Here again, Beatrice Webb's early experience and descriptions are very helpful as are Hollerinth's early work with punch cards and census data and the speed with which the results could be used.

Now if you compare the affordances by each of these in the digital era and plot their shifts against increasing computer processing power, you'll see that the value of the word processor stays relatively flat while the database shows much more significant movement.

Surely there is a lot more at play, particularly at scale and when taking network effects into account, but perhaps this quick sketch may explain to you a bit of the difference you've described.

Another difference you may be seeing/feeling is that of contextualization. Databases usually have much smaller and more discrete amounts of data cross-indexed (for example: a subject's name versus weight with a value in pounds or kilograms.) As a result the amount of context required to use them is dramatically lower compared to the sorts of data you might keep in an average atomic/evergreen note, which may need to be more heavily recontextualized for you when you need to use it in conjunction with other similar notes which may also need you to recontextualize them and then use them against or with one another.

Some of this is why the cards in the Thesaurus Linguae Latinae are easier to use and understand out of the box (presuming you know Latin) than those you might find in the Mundaneum. They'll also be far easier to use than a stranger's notes which will require even larger contextualization for you, especially when you haven't spent the time scaffolding the related and often unstated knowledge around them. This is why others' zettelkasten will be more difficult (but not wholly impossible) for a stranger to use. You might apply the analogy of context gaps between children and adults for a typical Disney animated movie to the situation. If you're using someone else's zettelkasten, you'll potentially be able to follow a base level story the way a child would view a Disney cartoon. Compare this to the zettelkasten's creator who will not only see that same story, but will have a much higher level of associative memory at play to see and understand a huge level of in-jokes, cultural references, and other associations that an adult watching the Disney movie will understand that the child would completely miss.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how this all plays out for your way of conceptualizing it.

reply to u/glugolly at https://www.reddit.com/r/Zettelkasten/comments/16njtfx/comment/k1l8lyk/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

How is it that you're defining knowledge management or knowledge management system?

I would argue that any zettelkasten of any stripe is taking knowledge/ideas from either content or one's own brain and transferring them into some sort of media by which they are managed or structured in some way for later linking, combination, or other reuse. By base definition this is clearly knowledge management. I don't know how one defines it otherwise except by pure denial.

Your view of zettelkasten seems remarkably narrow. As a small sample the original Maschinen der Phantasie Marbach exhibition in 2013, which broadly prefigured the popularization of zettelkasten (and in particular the launch of zettelkasten.de) which we see today featured six zettelkasten of which Luhmann's was the only one with reference numbers or what we might now consider explicit HTML-like links. Most of the others contained either explicit groupings or implied links, but that doesn't diminish the value they held for their creators for creating a conversation of ideas for them. Incidentally most of the zettelkasten featured there prefigured Luhmann's and only two were roughly contemporaneous with his.

If you look more closely at Adler, et al. you'll notice that the entire purpose of their enterprise was to create and nurture a conversation between themselves and their readers with texts and authors spanning over 2,500 years, a point which is underlined by the introductory volume which preceded the two volumes of the Syntopicon. Not coincidentally, that first volume of the 54 book series was entitled "The Great Conversation."

Specifically from Adler's "How to Read a Book", the first edition of which predated the Great Books of the Western World:

Reading a book should be a conversation between you and the author.

This is a process which is effectuated by

Marking a book is literally an expression of your differences or your agreements with the author. It is the highest respect you can pay him.

and later,

That is to make notes about the shape of the discussion-the discussion that is engaged in by all of the authors, even if unbeknownst to them. For reasons that will become clear in Part Four, we prefer to call such notes dialectical.

(As an aside, why aren't more people talking about the nature of dialectical notes, which seem far more important and useful than either fleeting notes and permanent notes?)

In your link to Holiday, he doesn't say his system isn't a zettelkasten, a word which an English speaker was highly unlikely to have used in 2013 in any case, even when referencing Manfred Kuehn from 2007. It simply indicates that "[Luhmann's] discipline seems to exceed mine because I am a lot less ordered".

The Goitein source (which I wrote) may use commonplace book as a descriptor but that doesn't mitigate the fact that the entirety of the zettelkasten tradition arises from it (the primary difference being things written (usually) on bound pages versus slips of paper). Before these there was the closely related idea of florilegia stemming from the earlier locus communis (Latin) and tópos koinós (Greek).

reply to u/glugolly at https://www.reddit.com/r/Zettelkasten/comments/16njtfx/comment/k1fn8w4/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 and

Well, Zettelkasten is not a knowledge management system. [...] Update: I mean digital ZK. Shoe-box ZK is a combination of knowledge management system of that time and "thought system" of Niklas Luhmann. u/Aponogetone at https://www.reddit.com/r/Zettelkasten/comments/16njtfx/comment/k1f23nj/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

I'm curious to see some evidence for why both you and u/Aponogetone say that a slip box (analog, digital or otherwise) is not a knowledge management system? Perhaps you don't think of it that way or use it solely to that end, but I find it difficult to see in light of the way I use mine and others have in the past. I suspect that if I had access to either of yours I could use it as a knowledge management system and it would tell me a lot about your interests and what you know and with a bit of work I could continue using it as one.

Even an argument against the more encompassing group nature versus personal or individual knowledge management systems is blunted by the use of a Zettelkasten by Adler, Hutchins, et al. to create the Syntopicon, the group uses by the Mundaneum effort (which went to great lengths to standardize information to be findable), the Oxford English Dictionary compilation, Thesaurus Linguae Latinae (TLL), Wörterbuch der ägyptischen Sprache, or even the academics who still use photocopies or microfilm versions of S.D. Goitein's zettelkasten.

What are the rest of us missing in your argument?

reply to u/TeeMcBee and u/taurusnoises at https://www.reddit.com/r/Zettelkasten/comments/16njtfx/comment/k1ic0ot/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

And two more big yeses.

There is a growing amount of literature in the educational social annotation space in which teachers/professors are using it specifically to encourage their students to interact with class material and readings. The mechanics on the front end are exactly the same as in most ZK set ups, the difference is what happens with the annotations one makes.

An entry point into some of this research:

• General: https://web.hypothes.is/social-annotation-in-english-and-composition/
• Bibliography: https://web.hypothes.is/education/annotated/bibliography/

https://notsubrand.com/

Notsu has a variety of 3 x 5" index card products for productivity and planning.

Why did the chicken cross the road?

To get to his zettelkasten on the other side!

But when he got there, he realized he had forgotten the slip of paper with his perfect evergreen note. So the chicken crossed the road once again to retrieve it. But almost as if it were a jokerzettel, on the way back, a gust of wind blew the slip right out of the chicken's beak!

The chicken tried to catch the runaway slip, but it kept evading him. He chased that slip all over the farm--through the pig sty, over fences, around the grain silo.

Finally, exhausted but triumphant, the chicken caught the slip and carefully filed it away.

Moral of the story: Don't count your slips before they're indexed!

A priest, a rabbi, and Nicholas Luhmann walk into a bar. They sit down, and the priest says, "Let's all share ideas from our florilegia." The rabbi responds by pulling out his own annotation of a gloss on the commentary of Rashi which comments on the Mishnah and the Gamara. To this Luhmann replies, "You're not practicing the one true note taking religion unless you're using alpha-numeric identifiers and have appropriately cross indexed at sheet 031-R with a link branching off of note 100(1) in ZK I.

Q: Why did the zettelkasten cross the road?

A: It didn't because Barbara Tuchman, Nicholas Luhmann, Jacques Goutor, Johannes Erich Heyde, and Keith Thomas all recommend only writing on one side.

Q: How many zettelkasten does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Only one, but it will require two dozen interconnected notes with citations on the history of illumination, the physics of filaments, and the impact of artificial light on circadian rhythms in the process.

A slip walks into a bar, and the bartender says, "Hey, you look a little stiff. Need a drink to loosen up?"

The slip replies, "What do you think I am? An index card?!? I'm Zettel 9/8j, give me a Shirley Temple!

Many mnemonists often recommend that one should understand an idea fully before committing it to memory, usually because it is much easier to memorize if it's fully understood first.

suggested by: https://hypothes.is/a/Jme3bFmlEe6_VYfaZGQf9Q

Does this idea exist in the 1940 edition of the book?

Very similar to the advice inherent in the Feynman technique or that suggested by the research summarized by Sonke Ahrens in How to Take Smart Notes.

cross reference: - https://hypothes.is/a/iV5MwjivEe23zyebtBagfw - https://hypothes.is/a/B3sDhlm5Ee6wF0fRYO0OQg (Adler testing using statement in own words and a concrete example.)

And of course, somehow Tiago Forte encourages people to highlight and pay attention to those that interest them.

This may be an interesting use case for artificial intelligence tools like ChatGPT which can provide the reader of complex material with simplified synopses to allow better penetration of the material (potentially by removing jargon, argot, etc.)

The difficult thing to pick apart here is the writer's intention and the reader's reception and base of knowledge.

In particular a lot of imaginative literature is based on having a common level of shared context to get a potentially wider set of references and implied meanings which are almost never apparent in a surface reading. As a result literature may use phrases from other unmentioned sources which the author has read/knows, but which the reader is unaware. Those who read Western literature without any grounding in the stories within the Bible will often obviously be left out of the conversation which is happening, but which they won't know exists.

Indigenous knowledge bases have this same feature despite the fact that they're based on orality instead of literacy.

Initial stab at a definition of "active reading"

He then pushes a button and "plays back" the opinion whenever it seems appropriate to do so. He has performed acceptably without having had to think.

This seems to be a reasonable argument to make for those who ask, why read? why take notes? especially when we can use search and artificial intelligence to do the work for us. Can we really?

https://www.theatlantic.com/author/james-l-mursell/

See: Mursell, James L. “The Defeat of the Schools.” The Atlantic, March 1939. https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/95dec/chilearn/murde.htm.

———. “The Reform of the Schools.” The Atlantic, December 1, 1939. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1939/12/the-reform-of-the-schools/654746/.

Framing of his book as a remedy to the speed reading fad in the 1970s...

What did those books at the time indicate that their purpose was? Were they aimed at helping people consume more (hopefully with greater comprehension?) while there was a continuing glut of information overload building up in society?

Which is better, more deep understanding of less or more surface understanding of more? How does combinatorial creativity effect the choice?

Compare this list to what ultimately became the Great Books of the Western World in 1952. Lots more 20th century writing on it to begin...

This book was published originally in 1940 and apparently the Great Books of the Western World was hatched in 1943, so this book isn't necessarily a stepping stone to pitching/selling those, though obviously it informs the ideas which led up to its creation.

Note that it is roughly contemporaneous to his article a year later:

Adler, Mortimer J. “How to Mark a Book.” Saturday Review of Literature, July 6, 1941.<br /> https://stevenson.ucsc.edu/academics/stevenson-college-core-courses/how-to-mark-a-book-1.pdf

How do historical method and philosophical method compare? contrast?

Were they tied to similar traditions? co-evolve? evolve separately?

Surely this won't include the idea of John McPhee's Draft #4 use of a dictionary?

Searching for "commonplace" and "card" in the text doesn't reveal anything positive.

re: https://hypothes.is/a/NiMaVO_iEeuNF7N35U9BpA

It would seem that Adler considered the method a simple bit of memory storage and not as a thinking tool or processing tool.

Is there anything we can find that is dispositive to this?

etymology?

from card as in card catalogue? thus dis-card or un-card, remove a card and throw it away?

apparently attested in the 16th century from card games...

late 16th century (originally in the sense ‘reject (a playing card’)): from dis- (expressing removal) + the noun card

though one should keep in mind that playing cards were also used as early index cards for their small functionality

a second use of "mental card catalogue", though somehow he doesn't seem to realize the inherent value for building knowledge... ?

Adler has juxtaposed the ideas of genius and commonplace together, but somehow doesn't notice the ratchet that ties them together to be one and the same tool for making them so productive?!?

Interesting use of the word commonplace here. Used in the philosophical sense rather than the meanings of "everyday" or "commonplace book".

Adler, Mortimer J., and Charles Van Doren. How to Read a Book. Revised and Updated edition. 1940. Reprint, New York: Simon & Schuster, 1972.

Progress

• Started reading on 2021-07-28 at 1:26 PM
• Read through chapter 6 on 2022-11-06 at 1:40 PM

Annotation URL: urn:x-pdf:47749dd5c860ea4a9b8749ab77a009da<br /> Annotation search

Quote for "reformulating writing"? Date? Does it predate the so-called Feynman technique?

Mortimer Adler gave oral examinations at St. Johns in which he would often ask a student to restate the ideas of writers in their own words and then ask for a concrete example of that idea. Being able to do these two things is a solid way of indicating that one fully understands an idea.

Adler and Van Doren querying each other demonstrate this once or twice in the video.

related: - https://hypothes.is/a/rh1M5vdEEeut4pOOF7OYNA - https://hypothes.is/a/iV5MwjivEe23zyebtBagfw

Where does this method sit with respect to the Feynman Technique? Does this appear in the 1940 edition of Adler's book and thus predate it all?

Based on Hobbes' definition of war, the left and the right in America are currently either at war or on the brink, because we are slowly coming to the point at which our differences can't or won't be decided by our recourse to law, which is actively moving against the will of the larger majority of Americans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Van_Doren

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jun/29/jenna-karvunidis-i-started-gender-reveal-party-trend-regret

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/society/37643/wildfires-alligators-and-jelly-the-brief-chaotic-history-of-the-gender-reveal-party

What a lovely example of H5P! I keep my eye open for them floating around in the wild, but don't often see them.

It reminds me of a 1906 advertisement I ran into earlier this year. I should have thought to make my own H5P out of it. https://boffosocko.com/2023/03/09/satelite-combination-card-index-cabinet-and-telephone-stand/

Syndication Link

https://cathieleblanc.com/2023/09/22/student-work-in-media-and-cultural-studies/

https://saragoldrickrab.com/

http://www.libraryhistorybuff.org/cardcatalog.htm

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3495731A/en

https://danallosso.substack.com/p/our-journey-day-51

Niklas Luhmann's zettelkasten system doesn't impose a heirarchy upon it's contents and in some ways its structure anticipates the ideas of hypertext and the internet's structure.

Also similar to the idea from Umberto Eco: https://hypothes.is/a/jqug2tNlEeyg2JfEczmepw

Zweitgedächtnis, the German Word for secondary memory, might also have been translated as "second brain" and thus the root of this word in the note taking space.

ref: https://hyp.is/hV9LKm71Eeq9s_f_oWRkEg/takingnotenow.blogspot.com/2007/12/luhmanns-zettelkasten.html

Originally 2021-12-31 at https://hypothes.is/a/3tjzWGqjEeyDSae3OLOEWw

Fascinating to see Ryan Holiday referencing Manfred Kuehn blogposts from 2007 here.

Specifically it was a link to http://takingnotenow.blogspot.com/2007/12/luhmanns-zettelkasten.html

Given the popularity of this original Thought Catalog post and the alternate which appeared on Holiday's site, this reference would likely have helped to push the popularity of Luhmann and his Zettelkasten in English speaking territories after 2013-12-23.

https://thoughtcatalog.com/ryan-holiday/2013/12/the-notecard-system-the-key-for-remembering-organizing-and-using-everything-you-read/

This was the original post which Holiday copied to his own site at: https://ryanholiday.net/the-notecard-system-the-key-for-remembering-organizing-and-using-everything-you-read/

Cross reference notes there.

Robert Greene used a color code for his index cards which also helped him to realize gaps in certain areas. He also liked them because "It also made the shoebox look pretty cool."

via SAMUEL MORNINGSTAR comment on August 14, 2014 at 5:22 pm

According to Patton: Blood, Guts, and Prayer by Michael Keene, General George Patton used a 4x6" index card system for note taking.

via SAM on January 15, 2017 at 8:54 pm

Apparently Will Durant and Ariel Durant used a form of commonplace book set up in which they used "classification slips".

Ryan Holiday's system puts some of the work farther from the note taking origin compared with Nicholas Luhmann's system which places more of it up front.

How, if at all, do the payoffs from doing each of these vary for the end user of the system?

Doto, Bob. “Folgezettel Mechanics.” Bobdoto.Computer (blog), March 1, 2022. https://bobdoto.computer/folgezettel-mechanics.

There's an interesting dichotomy which seems to be arising here. It's almost as if he's defining a folgezettel note in opposition to orphaned notes, most often seen in digital settings when importing lots of "stuff" but which Doto indicates can happen in analog systems as well.

Orphaned notes in an analog space, however are still linked by proximity even though they're not as densely linked (even from a mathematical topology perspective.)

Strong agree with Bob here.

Quite often collecting can create huge value in slowly building a substrate for serendipity to do its work. Some of the key to overcoming this is in the affordances of one's system to find or discover these tidbits in one's collection.

"So long as it happens." And here lies the rub: when will you put in the work to make the note useful and actionable? Will it be now or later?

Some notes are certainly more mission critical than others. Some work towards one's life's work while others are tidbits which may be useful at a later time. Distinguishing along this spectrum isn't always easy, particular in build a bottom up view of one's research.

There is a difference between the sorts of links one might make when placing an idea into an (analog) zettelkasten. A folgezettel link is more valuable than a simple tag/category link because it places an idea into a more specific neighborhood than any handful of tags. This is one of the benefits of a Luhmann-artig ZK system over a more traditional commonplace one, particularly when the work is done up front instead of being punted to a later time.

For those with a 1A2B3Z linking system (versus a pure decimal system), it may be more difficult to insert a card before other cards rather than after them because of the potential gymnastics of numbering and the natural tendency to put things into a continuing linear order.

See also: - https://hypothes.is/a/ToqCPq1bEe2Q0b88j4whwQ - https://hyp.is/WtB2AqmlEe2wvCsB5ZyL5A/docdrop.org/download_annotation_doc/Introduction-to-Luhmanns-Zette---Ludecke-Daniel-h4nh8.pdf

https://bobdoto.computer/folgezettel-mechanics

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325821466702

Gaylord Bros. library card catalog offered on 2023-09-21 for $4,995.00 from South Bend, IN.

60 Drawer modular cabinet with four sections of 5x3 drawers and two separate sections of two pull out writing drawers (for a total of four). Appears to be in good condition, made with internal plastic drawer/trays. Lilely from 60s/70s or later.

Cost per drawer: $83.25

https://zh.m.wikisource.org/zh-hans/%E8%A5%BF%E5%9C%8B%E8%A8%98%E6%B3%95

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Etymology/cowabunga

https://statecraft.beehiiv.com/p/analyzed-1626-banned-booksheres-found

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195819504280

Brodart 72 drawer library card catalog offered for sale for $1995.00 in at least mid 2023 if not earlier. Local pick up from Twin Lake, MI. A bit beat up. Appears to be maybe late 60s/early 70s. Has plastic drawers.

Two sections of 6x6 separated by three pull out writing desks.

Cost per drawer. $27.70

https://www.1dogwoof.com/repurposed-card-catalog-reveal/

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225779061741

Listed on 2023-09-17 for starting bid of $600 with a purchase price of $795.00. With $100 shipping to Los Angeles from Bartow, FL.<br /> In excellent looking condition. Restored?<br /> two drawers, but each one has two rows of cards, so technically four drawers.

Missing card catalog rods, so likely used for something other than cards at one point.

Cost per drawer: $150 per "drawer" at the opening bid price.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm

Originally listed at https://www.ebay.com/itm/305120250036 at $449 with buy it now at $699 ending 2023-09-15

Relisted on 2023-09-19 at https://www.ebay.com/itm/305142396423 for same

https://lenaling.medium.com/beyond-note-taking-zettelkasten-for-writing-success-52f8c8f65945

https://lifehacker.com/im-tom-standage-deputy-editor-of-the-economist-and-th-1705592297

While mostly a digital guy, Tom Standage uses Moleskine's reporter's notebooks which he likes because they're the size of an iPhone 6 plus.

iPhone 6+ (6.22 in x3.06 in)<br /> Moleskine reporter's notebook (3.5 x 5.5 inches)

Harl, Kenneth W. The Vikings: Course Guidebook. Vol. 3910. The Great Courses. Chantilly, VA: The Teaching Company, 2005.

Vikings. Streaming Video. Vol. 3910. The Great Courses. Chantilly, VA, 2005. https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/vikings.

annotation URL: urn:x-pdf:e17d7b3a22a4a56be07f2afb64548410<br /> search

Started 2023-09-18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iRzF_ZAdUI

Scott Sheper demonstrates one of the lowest forms of zettelkasten: simply indexing an idea from a book into one's index. This includes skipping the step of excerpting the idea into it's own card.

He describes it as zettelkasten knowledge building for busy people. It's definitely a hard turn from his all-in Luhmann-esque method.

In the end it comes down to where one puts in the work. Saving the work of having done some reading for a small idea one may tangentially reference later is most of the distance, but he's still going to have to do more work later to use the idea.

The Great Conversation: The Substance of a Liberal Education. 27th Printing. Vol. 1. 54 vols. The Great Books of the Western World. 1952. Reprint, Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., 1984.

I read the first edition.

Hutchins, Robert M. The Great Conversation: The Substance of a Liberal Education. Edited by Robert M. Hutchins and Mortimer J. Adler. 1st ed. Vol. 1. 54 vols. Great Books of the Western World. Chicago, IL: Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., 1952.

urn:x-pdf:0ce8391ed9f9f1cfc78c28b6c923abac<br /> Annotation search: https://jonudell.info/h/facet/?user=chrisaldrich&max=100&exactTagSearch=true&expanded=true&addQuoteContext=true&url=urn%3Ax-pdf%3A0ce8391ed9f9f1cfc78c28b6c923abac

Market analysis of library card catalogs in 2023.

As card catalogs lost their functionality in libraries and were de-acquisitioned there was a wave of nostalgia which caused people to purchase them, often in auctions, at higher than expected prices. Once they had them, most of these purchasers realized that they didn't have functional uses in their homes for them (beyond wine or liquor bottle storage, small crafts, or use as a zettelkasten, which seem to be the only reasonable upcycling use cases I've seen and the last seems to be very rare and niche). They sit and take up space for very little value in return beyond some esthetic beauty and nostalgia. As a result many soured on their ownership. Most owners naturally want to recoup their original purchase price thinking that relative rarity will save them.

Combined with this there was a resurgence in mid-century design esthetic which had some furniture restorers and designers buying and doing full (and very pretty) expensive restorations of older 20s - 40s versions which sold at auctions for $4,500 and up. Given the rarity of some of these older, fine furniture versions along with the work in restoration and the limited market only those who had a tinge of nostalgia and money to burn made purchases which resulted in a limited number of actual sales.

These two factors mean that almost all of the listings for library card catalogs are heavily overvalued on eBay, Facebook Marketplace, Craig's List, Etsy, etc. The fine furniture restorations have set an artificially high price point which some feel theirs must match as well. The difference in quality however is stark. Because of their size and lack of functionality, there is a relative glut of them on the market which all bear inflated prices. Those who originally spent inordinate amounts for them, feel they will still have that same value to others, so they list them online for inflated prices.

I've been closely watching the online "market" for them for over a year and see the same several dozen or more listed across the country usually in the range of about $30-$60 per drawer. Many are listed as local pick up only, which further hampers the overall market. This also brings up the issue of shipping a 60 drawer card catalog which can easily run in the $800-$1,500+ range which usually requires additional shipping logistics involved with freight. Most catalogs are already overpriced, but adding an additional $1000 tax on top is a bridge too far for all but the highest end of the market. Some platforms like Etsy and eBay which take cuts of the final sale also add to the cost of the sale.

In the year and a half or more that I've been watching, I've only seen a handful of actual sales, all of which were local, and many of which were in the Los Angeles area. All of these sales have been for listings which eventually were reduced down to the $15 per drawer range. One local sale was in Wisconsin was for $10 per drawer (a 30 drawer file) and another in Los Angeles was for $12.50 per drawer (on a 20 drawer file).

A note on condition

Outside of a small handful of fine furniture listings in the $4,000+ range, most ex-Library card catalogs are generally very well worn and not in great condition which makes them less valuable as decoration pieces. In fact, many are often missing their original card catalog rods, have dents, dings, or other cosmetic issues. Some are missing drawers or have replacement drawers which don't match. Some may be slightly mismatched having been purchased in different eras as modular pieces and put together. Frequently they have been modified from their original states to include inserts or other material to fill in the holes which where almost standard in the bottoms of the drawers.

Advice

If you're in the market, know that it is tremendously inflated, a fact which most sellers are aware of as they've got them listed, some for many years, not resulting in actual sales. If you really want one and find it in a reasonable condition, I highly recommend making an offer for it at about $10 per drawer and potentially go up to $15. Anything higher than that is overpaying based on actual recent market conditions. If you have the money to burn, feel free, but keep in mind that like many others in the past, once the initial nostalgia has passed, you've probably got a large piece of relatively non-functional furniture in your home.

It's not common, but some government auction sites will list card catalogs for auction from time to time. Because they actively want to sell them these can be purchased in the $2-10 per drawer range or less. Often they tend toward the larger 60+ drawer range, aren't in good condition, or need to be picked up and shipped to your final destination, usually within a few days of purchase as the original owners don't or explicitly won't handle shipping. These are likely to need some restoration work to be decorative pieces in many homes.

If you want something brand new, you can check out Brodart, which is the only remaining card catalog manufacturer/sales firm I'm aware of in the United States. Their systems are modular, so you can pick and choose what you'd like to have. The only caveat is that they start at $1,700 for their smallest 9 drawer model and can go up to $11,648 (plus shipping) for a full 60 drawer model. The other potential drawback, for some, is that they are made of a mixture of wood, metal and plastic versus the all wood and metal fittings of older vintage models.

If you're in the market primarily for nostalgic reasons, then you might also consider looking at some of the older desktop wooden card catalogs which are often much less expensive, take up far less space, and can be wonderfully decorative. Some of the smaller two to six drawer desktop models have the benefit of potentially serving as recipe boxes or paper rolodexes, zettelkasten, or simply small office storage. Here again, the online markets are likely to be heavily overpriced with 2 drawer models being continually listed at $150 and 4 drawer models in the $250-400 range. These sellers know that these prices don't result in actual sales as they've been sitting on them for long periods of time (presumably hoping to get lucky). Here I'd recommend you make offers in the $20-30 per drawer range to see what you can find. Another benefit is that these smaller models are far cheaper to ship across the country. For additional advice on these, see: The Ultimate Guide to Zettelkasten Index Card Storage.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Notes-Write-Allosso-ebook/dp/B0B7FSQP35/

Dan Allosso purchased a 30 drawer card catalog (three sections of 5 x 2 without any base) for $300 in 2022.

It's pictured on the cover of his book "How to Make Notes and Write".

Purchased at $10 per drawer.<br /> local sale

Price mentioned at the end of Dan Allosso Book Club 2023-09-16.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285357243415

Gaylord Bros. 20 drawer library card catalog<br /> listed for $495 in July 2023<br /> $24.75 per drawer

Reduced to $295.00 in September 2023<br /> $14.95 per drawer

Acquired on 2023-09-16 for $250<br /> $12.50 per drawer<br /> local sale

https://www.woodsmithplans.com/plan/card-catalog-cabinet/

https://www.jetpens.com/mt-William-Morris-Washi-Tapes/ct/5242

Jack Kerouac followed the general advice of Mortimer J. Adler to write notes into the endpapers of his books as evidenced by the endpapers of Volume IV of the 7th Year Course of The Great Books Foundation series with which Adler was closely associated.

https://auction.universityarchives.com/auction-lot/jack-kerouac-owned-freud-dostoyevsky-kant-scho_4584910AD6

Book covers of this prominently featured the names of the authors as:

Shaw | Freud

Which reads as "shaw and freud" or by association the German world schadenfreude.

"A meaningful narrative focused on opportunity rather than fear." —u/khimtan at https://www.reddit.com/r/antinet/comments/16i7w56/inspired_by_apple_layout/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40MTSRdQZPs

For when your analog Zettelkasten grows too big for just a few filing cabinets and you're ready to automate some of your slip finding work!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton

https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/14/wordpress-blogs-can-now-be-followed-in-the-fediverse-including-mastodon/

https://www.eatingwell.com/article/7964279/what-colored-tags-on-bread-mean/

reply to u/FilterGrad6 at https://www.reddit.com/r/Zettelkasten/comments/16iwdep/newbie/

Digital is just a tool. Why necessarily chose it over analog unless you can specifically identify affordances which dramatically improve your experience or output?

As you've discovered, shiny object syndrome may prevent you from collecting enough into one place to be truly useful and valuable. Pick one that seems to work for you and build from there.

If paper was good enough for the practices and outputs of Carl Linnaeus, Konrad Gessner, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz, John Locke, Hans Blumenberg, Roland Barthes, Beatrice Webb, Jacques Barzun, Niklas Luhmann, Gertrud Bauer, Marcel Mauss, Phyllis Diller, and so many others is there any reason it shouldn't work just as effectively for your work?

A .csv downloadable list of note tools and related productivity applications

Airtable link: https://airtable.com/appip8TXg2OuHTati/shr1KApA0zHtZRdzd/tbl7OoiJ2jtMCpM5Q?backgroundColor=yellow&layout=card&viewControls=on

https://developer.massive.wiki/converting_mediawiki_to_massive_wiki

Peter Kaminski suggested to me for export from MediaWiki to Massive Wiki

https://www.classicpress.net/

https://bryanmmathers.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinions_(TV_series)

A British talk program on Channel 4 from the 1980s-1990s focused on the opinions of public figures.

A potential precursor to TED talks?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_de_Bono

an interesting hypothesis, but was it ever fully tested?

Could tests on other groups with long standing levels of aggression be used to support it? Possible examples:<br /> - The Troubles in Northern Ireland;<br /> - cultural aggressiveness of the Scots-Irish, particularly in America (Hatfields & McCoys, et al.) (Did Malcolm Gladwell have some work on this?)

References in the article include: <br /> - Lloyd, John; Mitchinson, John (2006). The Book of General Ignorance. Faber & Faber. - Jury, Louise (19 December 1999). "De Bono's Marmite plan for peace in Middle Yeast". The Independent. Retrieved 3 January 2022.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_(lateral_thinking)

Where are the synoptic studies of mythology? (In the way the Bible has been pulled apart.) Naturally we're missing lots of versions to be able to compare, but synoptic studies of Greek and Roman mythology would potentially have some interesting things to say about the oral traditions of Jesus which passed down his story before they were written down decades (or more) following his death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U3lGD2mNRY

Calling Homer "poetry" here may be slightly helpful, but modern baggage of the concept is unhelpful. It also leaves out the rich texture of orality inherent in Homer, which she only touches on briefly.

https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4767325/does-the-entropy-of-a-chatgpt-sentence-match-that-of-the-output

We have a new online ordering system for Just Right Lunch which you will find very simple and user friendly. The website is https://justrightlunch.com/. Simply click on the blue button “Place Order Here”. This will take you to the order page. After ordering, you will receive an order confirmation listing the lunch items you wish to purchase.

If you have already placed orders for upcoming dates on the old system, there is no need to enter your orders on the new site. They will all be brought into the new system automatically. This new order system is for your future orders.

We are also now offering a larger size lunch option.

Just some reminders: <br /> - Advance ordering: Orders must be placed by 9:30 pm on our website, the day before lunch. There are no same day meal orders taken. <br /> - Emergency Lunches: If your student requires a same day emergency lunch, we will gladly serve them. Please contact the office that morning. This lunch will be charged to you at $7.25.

You can pay by Zelle using the information Bridget Khraich 626-664-5294 or by dropping off a check at the school office. Please make the check payable to Just Right Lunch.

For any IT, lunch confirmation or billing questions, please contact kathy.justrightlunch@gmail.com For any other concerns, please contact Bridget, her email address is justrightlunch@gmail.com

We are enjoying getting to know your children.

Thank you, Bridget Khraich

I love this image:

Via Bryan Mathers at https://bryanmmathers.com/education-work/

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015071458213&seq=1

Modern Filing Systems<br /> Wagemaker Furniture Company, Ltd. 1904 furniture catalog

https://www.ebay.com/itm/155763925991

Wagemaker Furniture Co. made wooden card indexes.

This one was offered in September 2023 at $39.99 + 110.60 in shipping from Columbus, OH to LA.

cost per drawer: $20.00

https://www.ebay.com/itm/305131275441

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1173187669981868/

24 Drawer steel Card Catalog<br /> $575<br /> Listed Circa May 15, 2023 in Brea, CA

Rusty Gold! This steel case 24 drawer card catalog cabinet is a beauty. Circa 1950’s this tank is a statement piece. All drawers are working and have amazing original pulls! Measurements 52” tall 34” wide 18.5” deep

Delivery available for a fee.

$23.95 per drawer

Owner indicates: <br /> Each drawer is 16” long<br /> 6” wide<br /> 4.5” tall

Mfg??<br /> Separates into multiple sections for shipping.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/977663026818414/

Gaylord Library Card Catalog 30 Drawer Wood MCM Mid Century offering at $1,350; originally listed at $1,600 Listed circa July 12 ,2023 in San Leandro, CA

44”x33”x18” total dimensions. Three pieces including traditional table base. with two 5x3 sets of drawers for a total of 30.

Cost per drawer: original offering: $53.33 updated offering: $45.00

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/806480010889906/

Single drawer 4x6" card index (no mfg) in reasonable, but definitely dirty/used condition.

Listed circa June 27, 2023 for $25 in Los Angeles

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/271076511951674/

Appears to be a single piece with two sections of 6x5 drawers for a total of 60 separated by three drawer pulls. In excellent shape, but missing many rods.

$18.33 per drawer

Listed in Mid-May 2023 for $1,100 in La Palma, CA

reply to u/PumpkinPines at tk

Your 1chapter1note idea is essentially what Ahrens called a "literature note" for your lecture. Many of the things you write down you'll either absorb or remember over time as you learn and you won't think twice about them. However there may be one or two interesting snippets you put into your lecture notes that are really intriguing to you and those you'll want to excerpt and expand on as more fleshed out "permanent notes" which will be the zettels in your zettelkasten. Over time these may grow into projects, papers, articles, a book, or other more explicit content.

For more on this idea, try these recent discussions * https://www.reddit.com/r/Zettelkasten/comments/yf1e8j/help_a_newbie_difference_between_literature_notes/ * https://www.reddit.com/r/Zettelkasten/comments/162os2q/how_can_i_use_zettelkasten_as_a_high_school/

A common make-work mistake is that everyone seems to think that they need to take each scrap they write down into some sort of "perfect" permanent note. Don't do this. You'll only exhaust yourself and die by zettelkasten.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285223361023

Brodart Library Card catalog with 60 drawers listed circa Summer 2023 for $1,800 (+62.60 shipping from Pensacola Florida). Appears to be in good condition. Built in solid base and includes three drawer pulls. Doesn't appear to have any rods and looks like it's got plastic drawers rather than wood.

cost per drawer: $30 per drawer

https://view.connect.americanpublicmedia.org/?qs=4b67c96dd579939fd9bd844055699bdeee293f04ea187ba67ab514e63f678713545e6ea21a9e4e47a466c8f9761fcdcaca521185a236c4d2f7d5d63af6400dc6b1e108d67d8d3c5a22f50f131947e1b7

Food cultures and restaurant changes can be a precursor indication of gentrification.

reply to u/epiphanysherald at https://www.reddit.com/r/AYearOfMythology/comments/16eti72/the_aeneid_begins_schedule_and_context/

I've not listened to it before, but some may find Elizabeth Vandiver's Aeneid of Virgil from The Great Courses series to have some useful information and background while reading: https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/aeneid-of-virgil.

It's not terribly expensive on their website, but many public libraries will have copies available for free, often including streaming through Overdrive.com, HooplaDigital.com, or other related free platforms.

Others in their series including those I've gone through from Vandiver before (The Iliad of Homer comes to mind) have been useful/helpful, especially with regard to context and history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZIpsFE6Yw

Attended live on 2023-09-07

Parchment has two distinguishable sides:<br /> hair, which is usually darker and may show follicles (and even hair itself when poorly scraped) and<br /> flesh, which is usually lighter.

Most planned manuscripts' bindings have the hair side of the parchment facing hair sides of opposing leaf and similarly the flesh facing flesh.

Because of additions and potential mistakes in binding there are places in LJS 101 in which hair faces flesh and vice-versa. This "mistake" can provide an indication of binding procedures or mistakes in them.

Notes from event on 2023-09-07

Used as part of the Carolingian educational program (rhetoric)

As of 2023, it's the oldest codex manuscript in Philadelphia

Formerly part of the (Thomas) Phillipps Collection (MSS Phillips appears on p1); see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Phillipps

There is some green highlighting on portions of the text

contains some marginalia and interlineal notations

Periermenias is the Greek title

Underdotting of some of the letters is used to indicate deletion of the text (used like striking out text today)

There are two sets of Carolingian script in the book, likely by different hands/times.

Shows prick marks in parchment for drawing lines to write evenly.

Has a few diagrams: squares of opposites (philosophy); color was added in XI C or possibly later

folio 45 switch to newer MS copy to continue text

Poem in last few lines with another text following it

parchment is smaller in one section at the end.

Another poem and then a letter to an abbott with a few pages in between (likely misbound) - quire of 12

Book starts with grammar, then Boethius translation of Aristotle, and then a letter. This could be an example of the trivium put together purposely for pedagogy sake, though we're missing all of their intended purpose (it wasn't written down).

https://libcal.library.upenn.edu/event/11148297

9th-century copy of Boethius's Latin translation of Aristotle's De interpretatione, referred to in the manuscript as Periermenias, with the shorter of two commentaries that Boethius wrote on that work. Replacement leaves added in the 11th century to the beginning (f. 1-4) and end (f. 45-64) of the manuscript, in addition to providing the beginning and end of the Boethius (which is probably lacking 2 gatherings between extant gatherings 6 and 7), include the Periermeniae attributed to Apuleius in the medieval period, a poem by Decimus Magnus Ausonius on the seven days of Creation, a sample letter of a monk to an abbot with interlinear and marginal glosses, and other miscellaneous verses, definitions, and excerpts. Dot Porter, University of Pennsylvania, has determined that two groups of leaves are misbound; leaves 5-12 (the original order appears to have been 5, 9, 10, 6, 7, 11, 12, 8) and leaves 53-64 (the original order of the leaves appears to have been 61, 62, 53-60, 63, 64).

https://watch.reclaimed.tech/reclaim-open

https://www.ebay.com/itm/204449941096

2 drawer 4 x 6" card index<br /> Listed in September 2023 for starting bid of $32.95

Cost per drawer: $16.45 <br /> Cost per drawer with approx. shipping: $25.75

Purchased 2023-09-10

Vintage Gaylord Bros Inc Solid Maple Adjustable Filing Drawer Inserts<br /> https://www.ebay.com/itm/185299223900

Outrageously expensive; listed for $399.99 + 18.50 shipping from Philomath, OR in Spring 2023

3 tray drawer plus single 1 tray drawer. 3.5 x 11.4 x 14 large 3.5 x 3.75 x 13.5 small

Vintage Remington Rand Library Card File Wood Box Table Top Index Dovetail<br /> https://www.ebay.com/itm/295737704485 3 connected trays in rough shape<br /> 14x11x3.5"

Listed for $36.25 + $26.80 in shipping from Kingwood, TX to Los Angeles in Spring 2023.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304964453291

Vintage Wood Library Card File Table Top Index Dovetail Gaylord Bros 13x7x4

Listed in Spring 2023 for $24.74 + $56.80 shipping from Kingwood, TX to Los Angeles (emailed about being high on 2023-09-10)

Coupon code for 10%: WINDSOFAUTUMN

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304965582423

Vintage Remington Rand Library Card File Wood Box Table Top Index Dovetail<br /> Two tray model from 1960s(?) at 15x7.5x3.5"

listed in early 2023 for $28.50 with shipping from Kingwood, TX to LA for $17.45.

Sold as a best offer accepted, so less than $28.50.

https://www.hoopladigital.com/title/14738022

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_Bible_Series

https://yalebooks.yale.edu/anchor-yale-bible-series/

Ran into a copy of the collection at Pasadena City College Shatford Library on Friday 2023-09-09.