Reply to @Edmund https://forum.zettelkasten.de/discussion/comment/21907/#Comment_21907

Doto's book is the best and tightest yet for explaining both how to implement a Luhmann-artig zettelkasten as well as why along with the affordances certain elements provide. He does a particularly good job of providing clear and straightforward definitions which have a muddy nature in some of the online spaces, which tends to cause issues for people new to the practice. Sadly, for me, there isn't much new insight due to the amount of experience and research I bring to the enterprise.

I do like that Doto puts at least some emphasis on why one might want to use alphanumerics even in digital spaces, an idea which has broadly been sidelined in most contexts for lack of experience or concrete affordances for why one might do it.

The other area he addresses, which most elide and the balance gloss over at best, is that of the discussion of using the zettelkasten for output. Though he touches on some particular methods and scaffolding, most of it is limited to suggestions based on his own experience rather than a broader set of structures and practices. This is probably the biggest area for potential expansion and examples I'd like to see, especially as I'm reading through Eustace Miles' How to Prepare Essays, Lectures, Articles, Books, Speeches and Letters, with Hints on Writing for the Press (London: Rivingtons, 1905).

I could have had some more material in chapter 3 which has some fascinating, but still evolving work. Ideas like interstitial journaling and some of the related productivity methods are interesting, but Doto only barely scratches the surface on some of these techniques and methods which go beyond the traditional "zettelkasten space", but which certainly fall in his broader framing of "system for writing" promise.

Doto's "triangle of creativity", a discussion of proximal feedback, has close parallels of Adler and Hutchins' idea of "The Great Conversation" (1952), which many are likely to miss.

For those who missed out, Dan Allosso has posted video from the sessions at https://lifelonglearn.substack.com/ Sadly missing, unless you're in the book club, are some generally lively side chat discussions as the primary video discussion was proceeding. The sessions had a breadth of experiences from the new to the old hands as well as from students to teachers and everywhere in between.

reply to michaljjwilk at https://hypothes.is/a/rwiI4rJYEe62aaN50r2zzQ to ensure it's properly indexed:

Most following my argument will have likely read The Two Definitions of Zettelkasten which may cover some of your initial question, or at least from my perspective. (Others certainly have different views.)

Some of your questions relate to what Robert Hutchins calls "The Great Conversation" (1952) and efforts over time to create Summa or compilations of all knowledge.

Variations of your remark about Plato can be seen in later Greeks' aphorism that "Everywhere I go in my head, I meet Plato coming back." or more recently in A.N. Whitehead's statement that everything is "a footnote to Plato".

Résumé de la vidéo [00:00:38][^1^][1] - [00:21:09][^2^][2]:

Cette vidéo explore l'évolution de la conversation dans notre société moderne, en mettant en lumière les défis posés par les nouvelles technologies et la communication numérique.

Temps forts: + [00:00:38][^3^][3] Introduction à la conversation * Importance de l'écoute et de la parole partagée * Comparaison avec les formes de communication modernes * Présentation de David Lebreton + [00:01:50][^4^][4] Impact des Jeux Paralympiques * Réflexions sur le corps et la société * Importance émotionnelle des Jeux * Comparaison avec d'autres sports + [00:03:20][^5^][5] Anthropologie des voix * Lien entre identité et voix * Transformation de la voix et du visage * Exemple de Stephen Hawking + [00:06:26][^6^][6] Déclin de la conversation * Influence des outils numériques * Différence entre conversation et communication * Importance de la présence physique + [00:10:00][^7^][7] Conséquences sociales * Isolement et souffrance des individus * Impact sur les jeunes et les personnes âgées * Réflexions sur la politesse et la civilité

Résumé de la vidéo [00:21:11][^1^][1] - [00:41:47][^2^][2]:

Cette vidéo explore l'évolution de la conversation dans le contexte moderne, en soulignant les défis posés par la technologie et la numérisation.

Temps forts: + [00:21:11][^3^][3] L'importance de la reconnaissance de l'autre * Éviter les sujets sensibles * Maintenir l'estime et la patience * Reconnaissance morale et sociale + [00:22:43][^4^][4] Impact des conversations téléphoniques * Gêne causée par les appels en public * Différence entre voix en personne et au téléphone * SNCF et les annonces sur les conversations + [00:25:02][^5^][5] Connectivité vs. sociabilité * Connectivité numérique ne remplace pas la sociabilité * Impact des smartphones sur les interactions sociales * Importance de la présence physique + [00:28:00][^6^][6] Effet des smartphones sur les conversations * Téléphone sur la table change la dynamique * Distraction et manque de profondeur dans les échanges * Réflexe social et conditionnement + [00:35:00][^7^][7] Reconnaissance du visage et éthique * Importance du visage dans les interactions humaines * Impact de l'absence de reconnaissance faciale en ligne * Exemples historiques et contemporains

Résumé de la vidéo [00:41:49][^1^][1] - [00:57:21][^2^][2]:

Cette partie de la vidéo explore les impacts de la technologie et des médias modernes sur la conversation et les interactions humaines, en soulignant la perte de contact direct et l'importance de retrouver des connexions authentiques.

Temps forts: + [00:41:49][^3^][3] Disparition derrière les écrans * Adolescents et adultes se barricadent * Perte de contact direct avec les autres * Monde moderne et isolement + [00:42:29][^4^][4] Texte de Zweig sur les pêcheurs * Indifférence des pêcheurs à l'exécution de Louis XV * Réflexion sur l'attention portée à l'histoire * Comparaison avec la société moderne + [00:46:00][^5^][5] Paul Valéry et la communication * Exagération des moyens de communication * Agitation et nervosité généralisées * Perturbation des intelligences + [00:48:02][^6^][6] Machines et voix humaines * Inquiétude face aux robots conversationnels * Capacité des machines à imiter les humains * Impact sur les interactions sociales + [00:54:00][^7^][7] Retour au corps et à la nature * Marche et jardinage comme formes de résistance * Importance du contact direct * Réponse aux défis de la modernité

from - Michael Levin & Jordan Hall conversation - https://hyp.is/5_liZHc1Ee-zpYv8m1u2VQ/www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQHaGhOrnug

for - proposal - future conversations - Earth Species Project & Michael Levin could be a good future conversation!

for - Michael Levin & economist Ben Lyon collaboration on price in marketplace as cognitive glue

to - Michael Levin & economist Ben Lyon conversation on Price in the marketplace as a cognitive glue for human social superorganism - https://hyp.is/X-yNJnczEe-Nd6N02kiSVQ/www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Oo4ng6dWrQ

for - Jordan Hall - gedanken - collective intelligence of a group - Michael Levin & Jordan Hall conversation

for - Jordan Hall question - engineering an intentional social superorganism - collective intelligence - Michael Levin & Jordan Hall conversation

for - topic for further research - higher level of living system - indicator of - Micheal Levin - synchronicity

Adjacency - between - Jordan Hall / Michael Levin conversation - hyperobject - cognitive light cone - lower level indicator of higher level - enlightenment / awakening Frederico Faggin experience - meditation - adjacency statement - Federico Faggin's experience of inter level awareness was - his profound awakening experience transcending even oneness - That was an indicator event that shattered his belief that he was alone, shuttered in existential isolation - and showed him that he was a part of a much larger system - In general, at the level of humans and human consciousness, - awakening and enlightenment experiences described throughout human history in many different - times and - places - could be interpreted as reaching upwards to a higher level in our lower level cognitive light cone

for - Indyweb dev - tracking the evolution of individual / collective learning of social learning - hyperobject -example of - perspectival knowing - conversation - Micheal Levin - Jordan Hall

Comment - Both Jordan Hall and I are familiar with the concept of hyperobject but in this part of the conversation, Jordan introduced the idea to Micheal for the first time - This illustrates to me that truism that our perspectival knowledge of reality is unique - Our individual meaningverses and lebenswelt are uniquely located and situated in life - And whenever a multi meaningverse events, the ensuing conversation is collectively - consciousness expanding - expanding the - semantic fingerprint and - symmathesetic fingerprint - of all conversants

for - conversation - Michael Levin - Jordan Hall

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/kzc5o3/are_gene_hackman_characters_in_the_conversation/<br /> Are Gene Hackman characters in The Conversation (1974) and Enemy of the State (1998 ) connected?

I want to circle back to this as I've had this idea since I saw Enemy of the State as a rough cut.

i love this analogy!

it's dangerous to be at the intersection but it's where you get closer to where you're going

compare the dominance forms of education to to guides by the side

ideas of John Taylor Gatto and unschooling...

also indigenous teaching methods which also pass down culture as part of an overall "package"

for - new synthetic opiod - nitazene produced by Chinese labs

to - The Conversation - Nitazenes are a powerful class of street drugs emerging across the US - https://hyp.is/aeMEIBYeEe-VK49zALV-KA/theconversation.com/nitazenes-are-a-powerful-class-of-street-drugs-emerging-across-the-us-222244

That said, I have had some pretty amazing conversations with ChatGPT-4. I've found it to be useful, too, for brainstorming. In one recent case (which I blogged about on my personal blog), the AI helped me through figuring out a structural issue with my zettelkasten.

I think this is a fantastic jumping-off point for discussions about how neurotypical and gendered norms interplay and shape our personal experiences.

for - book - Aims of Education

Followup - book - Aims of Education - author: Alfred North Whitehead - a collection of papers and thoughts on the critical role of education in determining the future course of civilization

epiphany - adjacency between - Lifework and evolutionary nature of the individual - - people-centered Indyweb -- Alfred North Whitehead's ideas and life history - adjacency statement - Listening to the narrator speaking about Whitehead's work from a historical perspective brought up the association with the Indyweb's people-centered design - This is especially salient given that Whitehead felt education played such a critical role in determining the future course of humanity - If Whitehead were alive, he would likely appreciate the Indyweb design because it is based on the human being as a process rather than a static entity, - hence renaming human being to human INTERbeCOMing, a noun replaced by a verb - Indyweb's people-centered design and default temporal, time-date recording of ideas as they occur provides inherent traceability to the evolution of an individual's consciousness - Furthermore, since it is not only people-centered but also INTERPERSONAL, we can trace the evolution of ideas within a social network. - Since individual and collective intelligence are both evolutionary and intertwingled, they are both foundational in Indyweb's design ethos. - In particular, Indyweb frames the important evolutionary process of - having a conversation with your old self - as a key aspect of the evolutionary growth of the individual's consciousness

[[Dan Allosso]] in How to Read, part 2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_letter

https://www.amazon.com/Antiracist-Deck-Meaningful-Conversations-Justice/dp/0593234847

Kendi, Ibram X. The Antiracist Deck: 100 Meaningful Conversations on Power, Equity, and Justice. One World, 2022.

A zettelkasten for creating conversations (randomly) around power, equity, and justice.

reply to u/ethanzanemiller at https://www.reddit.com/r/Zettelkasten/comments/185xmuh/comment/kb778dy/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Some of your methodology will certainly depend on what questions you're asking, how well you know your area already, and where you'd like to go. If you're taking notes as part of learning a new area, they'll be different and you'll treat them differently than notes you're collecting on ideas you're actively building on or intriguing facts you're slowly accumulating. Often you'll have specific questions in mind and you'll do a literature review to see what's happing around that area and then read and take notes as a means of moving yourself closer to answering your particular questions.

Take for example, the frequently asked questions (both here in this forum and by note takers across history): how big is an idea? what is an atomic note? or even something related to the question of how small can a fact be? If this is a topic you're interested in addressing, you'll make note of it as you encounter it in various settings and see that various authors use different words to describe these ideas. Over time, you'll be able to tag them with various phrases and terminologies like "atomic notes", "one idea per card", "note size", or "note lengths". I didn't originally set out to answer these questions specifically, but my interest in the related topics across intellectual history allowed such a question to emerge from my work and my notes.

Once you've got a reasonable collection, you can then begin analyzing what various authors say about the topic. Bring them all to "terms" to ensure that they're talking about the same things and then consider what arguments they're making about the topic and write up your own ideas about what is happening to answer those questions you had. Perhaps a new thesis emerges about the idea? Some have called this process having a conversation with the texts and their authors or as Robert Hutchins called it participating in "The Great Conversation".

Almost anyone in the forum here could expound on what an "atomic note" is for a few minutes, but they're likely to barely scratch the surface beyond their own definition. Based on the notes linked above, I've probably got enough of a collection on the idea of the length of a note that I can explore it better than any other ten people here could. My notes would allow me a lot of leverage and power to create some significant subtlety and nuance on this topic. (And it helps that they're all shared publicly so you can see what I mean a bit more clearly; most peoples' notes are private/hidden, so seeing examples are scant and difficult at best.)

Some of the overall process of having and maintaining a zettelkasten for creating material is hard to physically "see". This is some of the benefit of Victor Margolin's video example of how he wrote his book on the history of design. He includes just enough that one can picture what's happening despite his not showing the deep specifics. I wrote a short piece about how I used my notes about delving into S.D. Goitein's work to write a short article a while back and looking at the article, the footnotes, and links to my original notes may be illustrative for some: https://boffosocko.com/2023/01/14/a-note-about-my-article-on-goitein-with-respect-to-zettelkasten-output-processes/. The exercise is a tedious one (though not as tedious as it was to create and hyperlink everything), but spend some time to click on each link to see the original notes and compare them with the final text. Some of the additional benefit of reading it all is that Goitein also had a zettelkasten which he used in his research and in leaving copies of it behind other researchers still actively use his translations and notes to continue on the conversation he started about the contents of the Cairo Geniza. Seeing some of his example, comparing his own notes/cards and his writings may be additionally illustrative as well, though take care as many of his notes are in multiple languages.

Another potentially useful example is this video interview with Kathleen Coleman from the Thesaurus Linguae Latinae. It's in the realm of historical linguistics and lexicography, but she describes researchers collecting masses of data (from texts, inscriptions, coins, graffiti, etc.) on cards which they can then study and arrange to write their own articles about Latin words and their use across time/history. It's an incredibly simple looking example because they're creating a "dictionary", but the work involved was painstaking historical work to be sure.

Again, when you're done, remember to go back and practice for yourself. Read. Ask questions of the texts and sources you're working with. Write them down. Allow your zettelkasten to become a ratchet for your ideas. New ideas and questions will emerge. Write them down! Follow up on them. Hunt down the answers. Make notes on others' attempts to answer similar questions. Then analyze, compare, and contrast them all to see what you might have to say on the topics. Rinse and repeat.

As a further and final (meta) example, some of my answer to your questions has been based on my own experience, but the majority of it is easy to pull up, because I can pose your questions not to my experience, but to my own zettelkasten and then quickly search and pull up a variety of examples I've collected over time. Of course I have far more experience with my own zettelkasten, so it's easier and quicker for me to query it than for you, but you'll build this facility with your own over time.

Good luck. 🗃️

love "raucous conversation"!

• for: interspecies communication, interspecies conversations, ESP, Earth Species Project,

—Kenneth Burke. The Philosophy of Literary Form. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1941.

via Doug Brent at https://kairos.technorhetoric.net/2.1/features/brent/burke.htm

relationship of synoptical and syntopical

Did the idea of syntopicality exist prior to Adler? Did it spring from the work of German religious scholars of XIX C who began doing synoptical readings and comparisons of the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke in the Bible?

link to the "great conversation" quote of Whitehead about Plato: https://hypothes.is/a/qb2T7l9nEe6uVVOdez8mKw

The Great Conversation: The Substance of a Liberal Education. 27th Printing. Vol. 1. 54 vols. The Great Books of the Western World. 1952. Reprint, Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., 1984.

I read the first edition.

Hutchins, Robert M. The Great Conversation: The Substance of a Liberal Education. Edited by Robert M. Hutchins and Mortimer J. Adler. 1st ed. Vol. 1. 54 vols. Great Books of the Western World. Chicago, IL: Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., 1952.

urn:x-pdf:0ce8391ed9f9f1cfc78c28b6c923abac<br /> Annotation search: https://jonudell.info/h/facet/?user=chrisaldrich&max=100&exactTagSearch=true&expanded=true&addQuoteContext=true&url=urn%3Ax-pdf%3A0ce8391ed9f9f1cfc78c28b6c923abac

"Reading with an artificial intelligence" seems like a fascinating way to participate in the Great Conversation.

Texts are patient conversationalists always waiting for you to write your side of the conversation into the margin before they continue on with their side of the conversation. Sadly, too many readers (students especially) don't realize that there's a conversation going on.

Link to:<br /> - https://hypothes.is/a/bBwyhkN3Ee6nQNPI5xmSnQ - https://hypothes.is/a/GvRApkN3Ee6LbBPqqX-A5Q

Notes about what you don't know (open questions), empty outline slots, red links as [[wikilinks]], and other "holes" in tools for thought provide a bookmark for where one may have quit exploring, but are an explicit breadcrumb for picking up that line of thought and continuing it at a future time.

Linear writing in one's notebooks, books they're reading, and other places doesn't always provide an explicit space which invites the reader or writer to fill them in. One has to train themselves to annotate in the margins to have a conversation with the text. Until one sees these empty spaces as inviting spaces they can be invisible to the eye.

Is the cohesive nature of Hutchins and Adler's enterprise for the humanities and the Great Conversation, part of the kernel of the rise of interdisciplinarity seen in the early 2000s onward in academia (and possibly industry).

Certainly large portions are the result of uber-specialization, particularly in spaces which have concatenated and have allowed people to specialize in multiple areas to create new combinatorial creative possibilities.

Here Hutchins is again prefiguring C.P. Snow's "two cultures". He makes the argument that by having a shared base of knowledge and culture in our society's past history of knowledge (and especially early scientists and mathematicians), everyone, despite their individual interests and specializations, can be an active participant in a broader human conversation.

We need some common culture to bind humanity together. Hutchins makes the argument that the Great Conversation can help to effectuate this binding through shared culture and knowledge.

Perhaps he is even more right in the 2000s than he was in the 1950s?

The dramatic increase in economic specialization of humanity driven by the Industrial Revolution has many benefits to societies, but it also has detrimental effects when the core knowledge and shared base of the society is lost.

Certainly individuals have a greater reliance on specialists for future outcomes (think about the specialization of areas like climate science which can have destructive outcomes on all of humanity or public health outcomes with respect to vaccines and specialized health care delivery), but they also need to have a common base of knowledge/culture and the ability to think critically for themselves to be able to effect necessary changes, particularly when the pace of those changes is more rapid than humans have generally been evolved to accept them.

Does it really?!? When the conversation omits so many perspectives and points of view for lack of diversity, it's also going to be missing quite a lot that one may not anticipate either. It's also likely to go down some blind alleys that may not be as beneficial too.

One of the primary goals of The Great Books, was to make some of the (especially ancient writers) more accessible to modern audiences with respect to ready availability of their works which were otherwise much more expensive.

This certainly says something about both publishing and reading practices of the early 20th century.

The idea of the Lindy effect is subtly hiding here. Presumably it also existed before.

It's often seen in how historians can or can't easily evaluate the impact of recent historical figures without the appropriate amount of additional evaluation with respect to passing time.

Broadly the entirety of the documented existence of mankind...

amplifying, modifying, contradicting...

what other means of argumentation/conversation could one enumerate here with respect to a greater conversation?

How specifically does the author define "The Great Conversation"?

Note that it is consistently capitalized throughout the book to give it greater importance.

It feels odd that people wouldn't understand their own traditions, but it obviously happens. Information overload can obviously heavily afflict societies toward forgetting their traditions and the formation of new traditions, particularly in non-oral traditions which focus more on written texts which can more easily be ignored (not read) and then later replaced with seemingly newer traditions.

Take for example the resurgence of note taking ideas circa 2014-2020 which completely disregarded the prior histories, particularly in lieu of new technologies for doing them.

As a means of focusing on Western Culture, the editors here have highlighted some of the most important thoughts for encapsulating and influencing their current and future cultures.

How do oral traditions embrace the idea of the "Great Conversation"?

Part of literature is the Great Conversation, which often turns on the ability for writers to be understood and appreciated, often in translation. Gary Saul Morson takes P&V to task for their Russian translations which often focus on the incredibly specific nuances of direct translation, but which simultaneously lose the beauty and sense of literature. He says, "[...] readers typically turn to translations not to hear about culinary ephemera but to read literature."

Think of branches not as collections, but rather as conversations

When a branch starts to build, or prove itself, then ask the question (before indexing): "What is the conversation that is building here?"

Also related to Sönke Ahrens' maxim of seeking Disconfirming Information to counter Confirmation Bias. By thinking of branches as conversations instead of collectives, you are also more inclined to put disconfirming information within the branch.

These are much pithier versions of what Robert Hutchins is getting at when he's talking about the importance of the Great Conversation with respect to Democracy.

This is what I would suggest: if you wanted the perfect typewriter that will last forever that would be a great conversation piece, I'd say get the Smith-Corona Clipper. That will be as satisfying a typing experience as you will ever have. —Tom Hanks on CBS Sunday Morning: "Tom Hanks, Typewriter Enthusiast" at 07:30

LIFE. “The 102 Great Ideas: Scholars Complete a Monumental Catalog.” January 26, 1948. https://books.google.com/books?id=p0gEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA92&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false. Google Books.

Provides an small example of "the great conversation" on the equality of men and women.

While the Syntopicon ultimately appears in book form, one must recall that it started life as a paper slip-based card index (Life v24, issue 4, 1948). This index can be queried in some of the ways one might have queried a library card catalog or more specifically the way in which Niklas Luhmann indicated that he queried his zettelkasten (Luhmann,1981). Unlike a library card catalog, The Syntopicon would not only provide a variety of entry places within the Western canon to begin their search for answers, but would provide specific page numbers and passages rather than references to entire books.

The Syntopicon invites the reader to make on the set whatever demands arise from his own problems and interests. It is constructed to enable the reader, no matter what the stages of his reading in other ways, to find that part of the Great Conversation in which any topic that interests him is being discussed. (p. 85)

While the search space for the Syntopicon wasn't as large as the corpus covered by larger search engines of the 21st century, the work that went into making it and the depth and focus of the sources make it a much more valuable search tool from a humanistic perspective. This work and value can also be seen in a personal zettelkasten. Some of the value appears in the form of having previously built a store of contextualized knowledge, particularly in cases where some ideas have been forgotten or not easily called to mind, which serves as a context ratchet upon which to continue exploring and building.

How did Michael Oakeshott's philosophy overlap with the idea of the 'Great Conversation' or 20th century movement of Adler's Great Books of the Western World.

How does it influence the idea of "having conversations with the text" in the annotation space?

Ha. Annotation Kalir/Garcia positions annotation as genre, and as (distributed) conversation. [[Annotatie als genre of als middel 20220515112227]], [[Annotation by Remi Kalir Antero Garcia]] and [[Gedistribueerde conversatie 20180418144327]]

The human condition in its entirety is an infinite conversation I suspect.

Paris on the Amazon?: Postcolonial Interrogations of Benjamin’s European Modernism (pp. 216-245) Willi Bolle From: A Companion to the Works of Walter Benjamin, Camden House (2009) Edition: NED - New edition https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7722/j.ctt14brv7g

...and complete but constitutes an open repertoire, always in movement, expressing and stimulating the spirit of experimentation and invention. Let us remember that Benjamin, in his early work Einbahnstraße (One-Way Street, 1923/28), argued in favor of direct communication between the “ Zettelkasten ” (card box...

communication between?! though it is 2009 and after Luhmann's reference to communication with slip boxes....

Some of the manuscript notes in Wittgenstein's zettelkasten were "apparently written to add to the remarks on a particular matter preserved in the box".ᔥ So much like Niklas Luhmann's wooden conversation partner, Wittgenstein was not only having conversations with the texts he was reading, he was creating a conversation between himself and his pre-existing notes thus extending his lines of thought within his zettelkasten.

Wonderful conversation between Sheila Heti, her brother, and three of their friends, about the Annie Hall 'I need the eggs' joke that ends the film.

An article about contemporary philosopher Agnes Callard

Interesting point by John Caswell. AI prompting is a skill to learn, can we simultaneously learn to prompt better in conversations with other people? Prompting is a key thing in collecting narrated experiences for instance. Or will more conscious prompting lead to instrumentalising your conversation partner? After all AI chat prompting is goal oriented manipulation, what to put int to get the desired output? In collecting narrated experiences the narrator's reality remains a focal point, and only patterns over collections of narrated experiences are abstracted away from the original conversations. n:: [[Prompting skill in conversation and AI chat 20230301120740]] n:: [[Prompting pitfall instrumentalising conversation partner 20230301120937]]

https://web.archive.org/web/20230301110422/https://www.grouppartners.online/blog/critical-conversations

Conversation Hey, JB, I played a pickup game at the Rec today. At first, the older guys laughed and wouldn’t let me in unless I could hit from half-court . . . Of course, I did. All net. I wait for JB to say something, but he just smiles, his eyes all moony. I showed them guys how the Bells ball. I scored fourteen points. They told me I should try out for junior varsity next year ’cause I got hops . . . JB, are you listening? JB nods, his fingers tapping away on the computer, chatting probably with Miss Sweet Tea. I told the big guys about you, too. They said we could come back and run with them anytime. What do you think about that? HELLO—Earth to JB? Even though I know he hears me, the only thing JB is listening to is the sound of his heart bouncing on the court of love.

Conversation Dad, this girl is making Jordan act weird. He’s here, but he’s not. He’s always smiling. His eyes get all spacey whenever she’s around, and sometimes when she’s not. He wears your cologne. He’s always texting her. He even wore loafers to school. Dad, you gotta do something. Dad does something. He laughs. Filthy, talking to your brother right now would be like pushing water uphill with a rake, son. This isn’t funny, Dad. Say something to him. Please. Filthy, if some girl done locked up JB, he’s going to jail. Now let’s go get some doughnuts.

Basketball Rule #5 When you stop playing your game you’ve already lost.

Showoff UP by sixteen with six seconds showing, JB smiles, then STRUTS side steps stutters Spins, and SI NKS a sick SLICK SLIDING SWeeeeeeeeeeT SEVEN-foot shot. What a showoff.

Out of Control Are you kidding me? Come on. Ref, open your eyes. Ray Charles could have seen that kid walked. CALL THE TRAVELING VIOLATION! You guys are TERRIBLE! Mom wasn’t at the game tonight, which meant that all night Dad was free to yell at the officials, which he did.

Mom calls me into the kitchen after we get home from beating St. Francis. Normally she wants me to sample the macaroni and cheese to make sure it’s cheesy enough, or the oven-baked fried chicken to make sure it’s not greasy and stuff, but today on the table is some gross-looking orange creamy dip with brown specks in it. A tray of pita-bread triangles is beside it. Maybe Mom is having one of her book club meetings. Sit down, she says. I sit as far away from the dip as possible. Maybe the chicken is in the oven. Where is your brother? she asks. Probably on the phone with that girl. She hands me a pita. No thanks, I say, then stand up to leave, but she gives me a look that tells me she’s not finished with me. Maybe the mac is in the oven. We’ve talked to you two about your grandfather, she says. He was a good man. I’m sorry you never got to meet him, Josh. Me too, he looked cool in his uniforms. That man was way past cool. Dad said he used to curse a lot and talk about the war. Mom’s laugh is short, then she’s serious again. I know we told you Grandpop died after a fall, but the truth is he fell because he had a stroke. He had a heart disease. Too many years of bad eating and not taking care of himself and so— What does this have to do with anything? I ask, even though I think I already know. Well, our family has a history of heart problems, she says, so we’re going to start eating better. Especially Dad. And we’re going to start tonight with some hummus and pita bread. FOR MY VICTORY DINNER? Josh, we’re going to try to lay off the fried foods and Golden Dragon. And when your dad takes you to the recreation center, no Pollard’s or Krispy Kreme afterward, understand? And I understand more than she thinks I do. But is hummus really the answer?

35–18 is the final score of game six. A local reporter asks JB and I how we got so good. Dad screams from behind us, They learned from Da Man! The crowd of parents and students behind us laughs. On the way home Dad asks if we should stop at Pollard’s. I tell him I’m not hungry, plus I have a lot of homework, even though I skipped lunch today and finished my homework during halftime.

Too Good Lately, I’ve been feeling like everything in my life is going right: I beat JB in Madden. Our team is undefeated. I scored an A+ on the vocabulary test. Plus, Mom’s away at a conference, which means so is the Assistant Principal. I am a little worried, though, because, as Coach likes to say, you can get used to things going well, but you’re never prepared for something going wrong.

I’m on Free Throw Number Twenty-Seven We take turns, switching every time we miss. JB has hit forty-one, the last twelve in a row. Filthy, keep up, man, keep up, he says. Dad laughs loud, and says, Filthy, your brother is putting on a free-throw clinic. You better— And suddenly he bowls over, a look of horror on his face, and starts coughing while clutching his chest, only no sound comes. I freeze. JB runs over to him. Dad, you okay? he asks. I still can’t move. There is a stream of sweat on Dad’s face. Maybe he’s overheating, I say. His mouth is curled up like a little tunnel. JB grabs the water hose, turns the faucet on full blast, and sprays Dad. Some of it goes in Dad’s mouth. Then I hear the sound of coughing, and Dad is no longer leaning against the car, now he’s moving toward the hose, and laughing. So is JB. Then Dad grabs the hose and sprays both of us. Now I’m laughing too, but only on the outside.

He probably just got something stuck in his throat, JB says when I ask him if he thought Dad was sick and shouldn’t we tell Mom what happened. So, when the phone rings, it’s ironic that after saying hello, he throws the phone to me, because, even though his lips are moving, JB is speechless, like he’s got something stuck in his throat.

i·ron·ic [AY-RON-IK] adjective Having a curious or humorous unexpected sequence of events marked by coincidence. As in: The fact that Vondie hates astronomy and his mom works for NASA is ironic. As in: It’s not ironic that Grandpop died in a hospital and Dad doesn’t like doctors. As in: Isn’t it ironic that showoff JB, with all his swagger, is too shy to talk to Miss Sweet Tea, so he gives me the phone?

This Is Alexis—May I Please Speak to Jordan? Identical twins are no different from everyone else, except we look and sometimes sound exactly alike.

Phone Conversation (I Sub for JB) Was that your brother? Yep, that was Josh. I’m JB. I know who you are, silly—I called you. Uh, right. You have any siblings, Alexis? Two sisters. I’m the youngest. And the prettiest. You haven’t seen them. I don’t need to. That’s sweet. Sweet as pomegranate. Okay, that was random. That’s me. Jordan, can I ask you something? Yep. Did you get my text? Uh, yeah. So, what’s your answer? Uh, my answer. I don’t know. Stop being silly, Jordan. I’m not. Then tell me your answer. Are y’all rich? I don’t know. Didn’t your dad play in the NBA? No, he played in Italy. But still, he made a lot of money, right? It’s not like we’re opulent. Who says “opulent”? I do. You never use big words like that at school . . . I have a reputation to uphold. Is he cool? Who? Your dad. Very. So, when are you gonna introduce me? Introduce you? To your parents. I’m waiting for the right moment. Which is when? Uh— So, am I your girlfriend or not? Uh, can you hold on for a second? Sure, she says. Cover the mouthpiece, JB mouths to me. I do, then whisper to him: She wants to know are you her boyfriend. And when are you gonna introduce her to Mom and Dad. What should I tell her, JB? Tell her yeah, I guess, I mean, I don’t know. I gotta pee, JB says, running out of the room, leaving me still in his shoes. Okay, I’m back, Alexis. So, what’s the verdict, Jordan? Do you want to be my girlfriend? Are you asking me to be your girl? Uh, I think so. You think so? Well, I have to go now. Yes. Yes, what? I like you. A lot. I like you, too . . . Precious. So, now I’m Precious? Everyone calls you JB. Then I guess it’s official. Text me later. Good night, Miss Sweet— What did you call me? Uh, good night, my sweetness. Good night, Precious. JB comes running out of the bathroom. What’d she say, Josh? Come on, tell me. She said she likes me a lot, I tell him. You mean she likes me a lot? he asks. Yeah . . . that’s what I meant.

JB and I eat lunch together every day, taking bites of Mom’s tuna salad on wheat between arguments: Who’s the better dunker, Blake or LeBron? Which is superior, Nike or Converse? Only today I wait at our table in the back for twenty-five minutes, texting Vondie (home sick), eating a fruit cup (alone), before I see JB strut into the cafeteria with Miss Sweet Tea holding his precious hand.

Boy walks into a room with a girl. They come over. He says, Hey, Filthy McNasty like he’s said forever, but it sounds different this time, and when he snickers, she does too, like it’s some inside joke, and my nickname, some dirty punch line.

At practice Coach says we need to work on our mental game. If we think we can beat Independence Junior High— the defending champions, the number one seed, the only other undefeated team— then we will. But instead of drills and sprints, we sit on our butts, make weird sounds— Ohmmmmmmmm Ohmmmmmmmm— and meditate. Suddenly I get this vision of JB in a hospital. I quickly open my eyes, turn around, and see him looking dead at me like he’s just seen a ghost.

Second-Person After practice, you walk home alone. This feels strange to you, because as long as you can remember there has always been a second person. On today’s long, hot mile, you bounce your basketball, but your mind is on something else. Not whether you will make the playoffs. Not homework. Not even what’s for dinner. You wonder what JB and his pink Reebok–wearing girlfriend are doing. You do not want to go to the library. But you go. Because your report on The Giver is due tomorrow. And JB has your copy. But he’s with her. Not here with you. Which is unfair. Because he doesn’t argue with you about who’s the greatest, Michael Jordan or Bill Russell, like he used to. Because JB will not eat lunch with you tomorrow or the next day, or next week. Because you are walking home by yourself and your brother owns the world.

Third Wheel You walk into the library, glance over at the music section. You look through the magazines. You even sit at a desk and pretend to study. You ask the librarian where you can find The Giver. She says something odd: Did you find your friend? Then she points upstairs. On the second floor, you pass by the computers. Kids checking their Facebook. More kids in line waiting to check their Facebook. In the Biography section you see an old man reading The Tipping Point. You walk down the last aisle, Teen Fiction, and come to the reason you’re here. You remove the book from the shelf. And there, behind the last row of books, you find the “friend” the librarian was talking about. Only she’s not your friend and she’s kissing your brother.

tip·ping point [TIH-PING POYNT] noun The point when an object shifts from one position into a new, entirely different one. As in: My dad says the tipping point of our country’s economy was housing gamblers and greedy bankers. As in: If we get one C on our report cards, I’m afraid Mom will reach her tipping point and that will be the end of basketball. As in: Today at the library, I went upstairs, walked down an aisle, pulled The Giver off the shelf, and found my tipping point.

The main reason I can’t sleep is not because of the game tomorrow tonight, is not because the stubble on my head feels like bugs are break dancing on it, is not even because I’m worried about Dad. The main reason I can’t sleep tonight is because Jordan is on the phone with Miss Sweet Tea and between the giggling and the breathing he tells her how much she’s the apple of his eye and that he wants to peel her and get under her skin and give me a break. I’m still hungry and right about now I wish I had an apple of my own.

Surprised I have it all planned out. When we walk to the game I will talk to JB man to man about how he’s spending way more time with Alexis than with me and Dad. Except when I hear the horn, I look outside my window and it’s raining and JB is jumping into a car with Miss Sweet Tea and her dad, ruining my plan.

Conversation In the car I ask Dad if going to the doctor will kill him. He tells me he doesn’t trust doctors, that my grandfather did and look where it got him: six feet under at forty-five. But Mom says your dad was really sick, I tell him, and Dad just rolls his eyes, so I try something different. I tell him that just because your teammate gets fouled on a lay-up doesn’t mean you shouldn’t ever drive to the lane again. He looks at me and laughs so loud, we almost don’t hear the flashing blues behind us.

Game Time: 6:00 p.m. At 5:28 p.m. a cop pulls us over because Dad has a broken taillight. At 5:30 the officer approaches our car and asks Dad for his driver’s license and registration. At 5:32 the team leaves the locker room and pregame warm-ups begin without me. At 5:34 Dad explains to the officer that his license is in his wallet, which is in his jacket at home. At 5:37 Dad says, Look, sir, my name is Chuck Bell, and I’m just trying to get my boy to his basketball game. At 5:47 while Coach leads the Wildcats in team prayer, I pray Dad won’t get arrested. At 5:48 the cop smiles after verifying Dad’s identity on Google, and says, You “Da Man”! At 5:50 Dad autographs a Krispy Kreme napkin for the officer and gets a warning for his broken taillight. At 6:01 we arrive at the game but on my sprint into the gym I slip and fall in the mud.

This is my second year playing for the Reggie Lewis Wildcats and I’ve started every game until tonight, when Coach tells me to go get cleaned up then find a seat on the bench. When I try to tell him it wasn’t my fault, he doesn’t want to hear about sirens and broken taillights. Josh, better an hour too soon than a minute too late, he says, turning his attention back to JB and the guys on the court, all of whom are pointing and laughing at me.

Basketball Rule #6 A great team has a good scorer with a teammate who’s on point and ready to assist.

Josh’s Play-by-Play At the beginning of the second half we’re up twenty-three to twelve. I enter the game for the first time. I’m just happy to be back on the floor. When my brother and I are on the court together this team is unstoppable, unfadeable. And, yes, undefeated. JB brings the ball up the court. Passes the ball to Vondie. He shoots it back to JB. I call for the ball. JB finds me in the corner. I know y’all think it’s time for the pick-and-roll, but I got something else in mind. I get the ball on the left side. JB is setting the pick. Here it comes— I roll to his right. The double-team is on me, leaving JB free. He’s got his hands in the air, looking for the dish from me. Dad likes to say, When Jordan Bell is open you can take his three to the bank, cash it in, ’cause it’s all money. Tonight, I’m going for broke. I see JB’s still wide open. McDonald’s drive-thru open. But I got my own plans. The double-team is still on me like feathers on a bird. Ever seen an eagle soar? So high, so fly. Me and my wings are— and that’s when I remember: MY. WINGS. ARE. GONE. Coach Hawkins is out of his seat. Dad is on his feet, screaming. JB’s screaming. The crowd’s screaming, FILTHY, PASS THE BALL! The shot clock is at 5. I dribble out of the double-team. 4 Everything comes to a head. 3I see Jordan. 2 You want it that bad? HERE YA GO! 1 . . .

Before Today, I walk into the gym covered in more dirt than a chimney. When JB screams FILTHY’S McNasty, the whole team laughs. Even Coach. Then I get benched for the entire first half. For being late. Today, I watch as we take a big lead, and JB makes four threes in a row. I hear the crowd cheer for JB, especially Dad and Mom. Then I see JB wink at Miss Sweet Tea after he hits a stupid free throw. Today, I finally get into the game at the start of the second half. JB sets a wicked pick for me just like Coach showed us in practice, And I get double-teamed on the roll just like we expect. Today, I watch JB get open and wave for me to pass. Instead I dribble, trying to get out of the trap, and watch as Coach and Dad scream for me to pass. Today, I plan on passing the ball to JB, but when I hear him say “FILTHY, give me the ball,” I dribble over to my brother and fire a pass so hard, it levels him, the blood from his nose still shooting long after the shotclock buzzer goes off.

Presumably being used for rubber ducking?

Was it also used as research feedback for the program itself?

in order to make something powerful, you have to make a choice about what kind of conversation you want to make and how you are going to do that

How often does one meet a conversational partner that is interested in generative thought? This practice takes some work, but how could one particularly encourage it in classroom setting?

Questions to ask to a domain expert from a completely new field to you

Example of Brian Eno using ITunes as a digital music zettelkasten. He's got 2,800 pieces of unreleased music which he plays on random shuffle for serendipity, memory, and potential creativity. The experience seems to be a musical one which parallels Luhmann's ideas of serendipity and discovery with the ghost in the machine or the conversation partner he describes in his zettelkasten practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h0Y6qE4TKg

I went through some of the pieces in the collection. It is important to give a platform to the voices that are missing from the conversation usually.

Just a few similar initiatives that you might want to check out:

Storycorps - people can record their stories via an app

Project Voice - spoken word poetry

Living Library - sharing one's story

Freedom Writers - book and curriculum based on real-life stories

Safe spaces are only safe when you make them safe by repelling attackers.

Waving a magic wand and declaring a place safe doesn't make it so. We see it over and over and people keep pretending harder.

I came here looking for a way to exclude certain emails from searches in Gmail. I was trying to make sure some emails that were archived don't show up, and this approach works (but the Boolean operators must be capitalized):

(label:label_I_want AND NOT label:label_I_dont)

If the unwanted label msgs are a part of a conversation thread containing the wanted msgs, then I'll need to turn this off first:

Go to the main Settings page, look for the “Conversation View” section, select the option to turn it off, and save changes. If you change your mind, you can always go back. source

!- key insight : the primary unit of language is conversation - conversation is what gives rise to symbols, words, sentences

Unlutabak, B., & Velioglu, I. (2021). Examining Children’s Questions and Parents’ Responses about Covid-19 Pandemic in Turkey. PsyArXiv. https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/v78c6

This is a remarkable analysis. If it holds water, it's easy to grasp and helpful to apply.

1. Heinrich von Kleist, “Ü ber die allm ä hliche Verfertigung der Gedanken beim Reden,” in Sämtliche Werke und Briefe. Zweiter Band, ed. Helmut Sembdner (M ü nchen: dtv, 1805/2001), 319 – 324, at 319.
2. Ibid., 320.

in 1805 Heinrich von Kleist noted that one can use conversation with another person, even when that person is silent, to come up with solutions or ideas they may not have done on their own.

This phenomena is borne out in modern practices like the so-called "rubber duck debugging", where a programmer can talk to any imagined listener, often framed as a rubber duck sitting on their desk, and talk through the problem in their code. Invariably, talking through all the steps of the problem will often result in the person realizing what the problem is and allow them to fix it.

This method of verbal "conversation" obviously was a tool which indigenous oral cultures frequently used despite the fact that they didn't have literacy as a tool to fall back on.

One's note taking is not only a conversation with the text or even the original author, it is also a conversation you're having with your future self. This feature is accelerated when one cross links ideas within their note box with each other and revisits them at regular intervals.

Example of someone who uses Roam Research and talks about the prevalence of using it as a "conversation with your future self."

This is very similar to the same patterns that can be seen in the commonplace book tradition, and even in the blogosphere (Cory Doctorow comes to mind), or IndieWeb which often recommends writing on your own website to document how you did things for your future self.

Social Media Conversations in Support of Herd Immunity are Driven by Bots. (n.d.). Federation Of American Scientists. Retrieved March 31, 2022, from https://fas.org/blogs/fas/2020/10/social-media-conversations-in-support-of-herd-immunity-are-driven-by-bots/

Adding to the conversation: Those who don't die of COVID sometimes get "Long COVID" or they now live with other deficits like: brain damage, psychological issues, diminished lung capacity, or some organ failures. I'm sure more things will emerge over time.

link to 2nd article (hegemonic masculinity)

very good -- hide emotions (link with nicole)

https://www.obsidianroundup.org/ite-not-second-brain/

Eleanor Konik describes why second brain is a terrible term for note taking apps.

Schmid, P., & Lewandowsky, S. (n.d.). Tackling COVID disinformation with empathy and conversation. The Conversation. Retrieved December 15, 2021, from http://theconversation.com/tackling-covid-disinformation-with-empathy-and-conversation-173013

This stresses the importance of applying Deep Humanity wisely by finding the most compelling, salient and meaningful common human denominators appropriate for each conversational context. Which group are we interacting with? What are the major landmarks embedded in THEIR salience landscape?

The BEing journeys we craft will only be meaningful and impactful if they are appropriately matched to the cultural context.

The whole mind- body understanding of how we cognitively construct our reality, via Deep Humanity BEing journeys, can help shift our priorities.

Life as a journey and a conversation where understanding is the destination.

Mazumdar, S., & Thakker, D. (2020). Citizen Science on Twitter: Using Data Analytics to Understand Conversations and Networks. Future Internet, 12(12), 210. https://doi.org/10.3390/fi12120210

https://www.mdpi.com/1999-5903/12/12/210

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/18/books/18montaigne.html

Some people consider annotations to be a conversation with the author. But you're also having a conversation with yourself and your own thoughts. (Cross reference Niklas Luhmann's having a conversation with himself via his notes.)

Further, there are platforms like Hypothes.is or social platforms like Twitter where you can move the conversation out of the page and engage with others. However, for this Hypothes.is has more power because it keeps the conversation linked to the original text and the original context (which I'll explicitly translate here as "with the text") to underline the point.

cf:

cum (Latin) : with

textus (Latin) : tissue, web, texture, fabric, connection, language

contextus (Latin) : context, connection, coherence, connexion, coherency, text

There is something to be said about the potential forms of response that newsletters can have. Some have online versions where users can respond and be a direct part of the public conversation, but many also have the ability to reply directly and privately to the author.

How common is this private reply and conversation? Does it contribute to the ecosystem significantly? This article indicates that it's possible and I've heard one or two people mention that it happens. I've yet to see data to indicate that it's a frequent thing though.

Facebook AI. (2021, July 16). We’ve built and open-sourced BlenderBot 2.0, the first #chatbot that can store and access long-term memory, search the internet for timely information, and converse intelligently on nearly any topic. It’s a significant advancement in conversational AI. https://t.co/H17Dk6m1Vx https://t.co/0BC5oQMEck [Tweet]. @facebookai. https://twitter.com/facebookai/status/1416029884179271684

Giving peers permission to engage in dialogue about race and holding a lofty expectation that they will stay engaged in these conversations throughout the semester or year is the first of the four agreements for courageous conversation. While initially, some participants may be eager to enter into these conversations, our experience indicates that the more personal and thus risky these topics get, the more difficult it is for participants to stay committed and engaged." Singleton and Hays

You can share your question via replies to this annotation in advance of the session!

Levine, E. (2021). Community standards of deception: Deception is perceived to be ethical when it prevents unnecessary harm. PsyArXiv. https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/g5trb

Konstantinos, A. (2021). Tips on countering conspiracy theories and misinformaton. CommsFlyer.

Sexual violence oftentimes takes away someone's voice, but the #MeToo Movement is helping give people their voice back.

Dideriksen, C., Christiansen, M. H., Tylén, K., Dingemanse, M., & Fusaroli, R. (2020, October 12). Building common ground: Quantifying the interplay of mechanisms that promote understanding in conversations. https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/a5r74

Brewer, N. T., Hall, M. E., Malo, T. L., Gilkey, M. B., Quinn, B., & Lathren, C. (2017). Announcements Versus Conversations to Improve HPV Vaccination Coverage: A Randomized Trial. Pediatrics, 139(1). https://doi.org/10.1542/peds.2016-1764

I can't help but note that within the IndieWeb community, they're using a combination of online chat and wiki tools which to a great extent are a larger ongoing conversation. The conversation continues on a daily (almost hourly) basis and the substantive portions of that conversation are captured within the wiki for future reference. Interestingly, an internal chat bot, known as Loqi, allows one to actively make changes to the wiki from within the chat. In some sense, within this community there could be an analogy to which came first the chicken or the egg, but replacing those with conversation and annotation.